amntrans MAJIEM MKUKWANA: AM 3129/96 1999-04-14 JOHANNESBURG 3 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53281&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99041214_jhb_990414jh.htm MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson, may we now commence with the application of Majiem Mkukwana and he prefers to testify in Xhosa. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkukwana, you want to testify in Xhosa? MR MKUKWANA That is correct, sir. MAJIEM MKUKWANA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mkukwana, you were born on the 14th February 1952 is that correct? MR MKUKWANA That is correct. MR MOHLABA Where were you born? MR MKUKWANA In Mont Frere in the Transkei. MR MOHLABA Are you married? Do you have a family of your own? MR MKUKWANA Yes I have a wife and children. MR MOHLABA You are presently serving an imprisonment term, is that correct? MR MKUKWANA That is correct. MR MOHLABA There is an affidavit, copies of which have been submitted to the Committee. Do you confirm this as the affidavit which you have signed, the one I'm showing to you? MR MKUKWANA That is correct. MR MOHLABA Do you confirm the contents to be true? MR MKUKWANA Is that what was written by me that you are referring to? MR MOHLABA The affidavit which was prepared on your behalf and signed by you this morning? MR MKUKWANA Yes, I'm familiar with the contents. MR MOHLABA May I please refer the Committee to page 2 of the affidavit where there is a typing error which I would want to draw to the Committee's attention? The paragraph dealing with the period of imprisonment. It says "I was sentenced to a total imprisonment term of 31 years" That's a typing error. May I indicate that it was supposed to read 25 and a half years and I beg leave for the necessary amendment to be effected. You are applying for amnesty in respect of the offences mentioned in your affidavit, that is in respect of murder, two counts of attempted murder, unlawful possession of ammunition and unlawful possession of a firearm, is that correct? MR MKUKWANA That is correct, sir. MR MOHLABA And the basis on which you are applying for this amnesty is that these offences were committed with a political objective, is that correct? MR MKUKWANA That is correct, sir. MR MOHLABA May the affidavit be regarded as evidence. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. CHAIRPERSON If you want it to be evidence it will be so. MR MOHLABA I think you will request that it be handed in as an exhibit. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MOHLABA The purpose Mr Chair of handing this affidavit was to remedy the application form in particular paragraph 9a(iii) thereof which did not set out the nature and particulars of the offences, of the offence committed and if the Committee is satisfied with the contents of this affidavit that will conclude the testimony of the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA MR MOHLABA So be it. Ms Thabete? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE Yes Mr Chair, I do have questions. Mr Mkukwana, can you just clarify that whether the incident of the killing of an unknown person happened at the same area with the assaults of the others, so with the attempted murders of the others? MR MKUKWANA Yes they all happened simultaneously in 1991. MS THABETE Was it at the same time? MR MKUKWANA That is correct. MS THABETE And when was this? 25 June 1991? MR MKUKWANA I cannot clearly recall the date but it was in 1991. MS THABETE I'm asking you this question because in the indictment it looks like it was separate incidents. The first incident appeared to have happened on the 23rd June 1991 and the second incident appears to have happened on the 25th June 1991 in Mr Moses Tuwani's house? MR MKUKWANA Yes, they didn't all happen on the same day. I do not understand your question. MS THABETE No, what I'm trying to find out from you Mr Mkukwana is you are applying for murder, right, of the person who was found at Tafani Hostel, is that correct? MR MKUKWANA That is correct. MS THABETE And then you applied for an incident that happened when you were patrolling where a group of people and then you fired shots? MR MKUKWANA That is correct. MS THABETE So you're saying it's separate matters and separate incidents? MR MKUKWANA Yes it's separate incidents. MS THABETE I don't know whether it's my mistake but it appears as if in the affidavit it happened at the same time? MR MOHLABA Clearly those have all along been my instructions. Maybe I should ask for a short adjournment to clarify certain things? MS THABETE Please. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkukwana, in respect of the murder, when did that happen? MR MKUKWANA It happened at night. CHAIRPERSON What date? MR MKUKWANA I cannot recall the date but it was in 1991 but if you can refer to the records you'll find the date but it was in 1991. CHAIRPERSON And the attempted murders, when did that happen? MR MKUKWANA The attempted murders happened first. CHAIRPERSON Tell us about them, now where and when and how? MR MKUKWANA I do not know whether should I give background information as to what led to the incidents but I can just briefly say that there was a conflict in 1990. We were a united group of Inkatha and ANC members and when all this started there were fights in the hostels and people ran away to the Vusunzi Hostel and we remained in the Tafani Hostel. That was in 1990. They used to come back and attack us in the evenings and we were - some of us died and some of us survived and we decided that some should lie in wait outside and some should stay on guard and when we saw people coming stealthily we would shoot them. As soon as we recognised that they did not belong to our hostel and we would attack them. CHAIRPERSON Now these two attempted murders, tell us about that specifically? MR MKUKWANA I had hit someone with a bullet in his head and I did not see him but I only learned that in court and the second one said I also shot him on the shoulder but it was at night, I did not see that. CHAIRPERSON Why did you shoot at him? MR MKUKWANA We shot them because we were fighting with them in this conflict between Inkatha and ANC. It happened that whenever we were sleeping at night they would creep in and shoot us. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MS THABETE Did both these attempted murders take place on the same day or did they take place on different days? MR MKUKWANA It's on different days but I'm not sure whether it was in the morning but it was different days, it was not on the same day. MS THABETE Did you go out practically every night, I mean from the indictment ...(intervention) MR MKUKWANA Yes, we would go out every night, we were not sleeping in our houses any more. MS THABETE Were you still staying at the hostel at that time? MR MKUKWANA Yes I was still staying there at the hostel. MS THABETE Alright, because from the indictment it appears that the second charge, the second attempted murder happened on or about the 23rd June 1991 and then the second attempted murder happened on or about the 25th June 1991. So are you telling us that you used to go out every night, was there shooting between yourselves and the opposition practically every night? MR MKUKWANA Yes it happened mostly at night. The situation will be better during the day and worsen in the evening. MS THABETE But were you shooting practically every day? MR MKUKWANA Whenever we saw them we would shoot them when they arrived but they wouldn't come daily but we stayed alert on guard all the time. When they attempted to creep in we would lie in wait for them in the corners and shoot them. Those who were not on duty whilst we were away, they would stay on guard. CHAIRPERSON Good, now you've told us that both these attempted murders took place within the context of the conflict and at Thembisa, correct? MR MKUKWANA That is correct, sir. CHAIRPERSON Tell us about the murder. MR MKUKWANA This instance also happened whilst we were lying in the dark at night. Three people appeared and we were still discussing this issue of these people approaching. When they saw us they tried to turn back and run away but I managed to shoot this one. CHAIRPERSON And of course you were in possession of an unlicensed firearm together with unlicensed ammunition when you committed these crimes? MR MKUKWANA That is correct. MS THABETE Why did you shoot him? MR MKUKWANA I shot him because he was one of those who would creep in stealthily because at night we would never allow anyone who we did not know to enter the premises because these were the people who were finishing us, even if one went to the toilet. DR TSOTSI Mr Mkukwana, I'm not quite clear about this battle that was going on. Was this a battle between Inkatha and the ANC members? MR MKUKWANA Yes, it was a battle between the two. DR TSOTSI And was this a battle between the hostel dwellers of these two organisations? Do I understand from you that Inkatha members left the hostel and came and attacked you and you vice versa? Is that the position? MR MKUKWANA That is correct. DR TSOTSI And that this took place from about 1990? MR MKUKWANA It started in 1990. DR TSOTSI In 1990. Now who authorised this battle? Did you just go out on your own as a hostel or members of ANC or was there any authority which authorised you to engage in this battle? MR MKUKWANA Nobody authorised this. When we realised that there was a war situation we decided to take control. Nobody asked you about your political affiliation. If they said to you that - once they established that you are a Xhosa they would kill you. DR TSOTSI Now this was before they established the SDUs, is that right? At that time in 1990 the SDUs were not yet formed or established? MR MKUKWANA That is correct, Sir. DR TSOTSI Now in other words when you attacked one another, let's talk about you people, the people that you shot or killed, all that you were concerned with was whether or not this man was an Inkatha man or he came from the other side. If he came from the other side, if he was an Inkatha man, then you shot him, is that the position? MR MKUKWANA That is correct, sir. We also did not enter that other hostel. DR TSOTSI I see. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand you correctly, those areas became no go areas for the opposition, both sides? MR MKUKWANA That is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON And it was a political battle pitched in the ...(intervention) MR MKUKWANA That is correct, Sir. It was because of the difference of the political parties, ANC and Inkatha. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. MS THABETE Thank you Mr Chair. In page 4 of the indictment which is the summary of substantial facts, it says that the first incident which is the shooting of Johannes Muhali, it suggests that he was on his way home and you ran after him and you shot him. Would you say this is correct? MR MKUKWANA We shot him at the hostel. As to whether he was on his home or not, that I'm not sure of. MS THABETE And then the second incident ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You know Mrs Thabete, those days these indictments had a way of being cast in a slanting way. MS THABETE Okay. CHAIRPERSON And I wonder if we should rely on it as reflecting the actual truth. MS THABETE I just wanted to clarify with him whether it's true or not true. Thank you Mr Chair. The second one, it says the shooting of Moses ...(indistinct), you went there into his house and you shot him there. Would you say that is correct? MR MKUKWANA He was no longer staying there, he had already run away. They all ran away and when we saw the lights on in his house we decided to shoot him. I hit him on the forehead but apparently he survived. It was in the dark. It was his house but it was already vacated as he was an Inkatha members. When we saw the light on in the house, when we suspected that he might have crept in I noticed and that is how he was shot. MS THABETE So are you saying ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Would that be in a place where it was declared a no go area for him, that house? MR MKUKWANA Yes he was unwanted in that area. MS THABETE Sorry, this house that you're referring to, was it in the hostel or was it an ordinary house in the country? MR MKUKWANA It's in the hostel premises at Tafani. MS THABETE So it was in his room actually, not his house you would say? MR MKUKWANA Yes it's a room rather than a house. MS THABETE So is it your evidence that these people were attacked or maybe I should put it this way, why were these people specifically attacked? I understand that there was a conflict going on but why these specific people were attacked? MR MKUKWANA They were attacked because they came at night at our premises and there was the war situation prevailing. At that time it was not allowed that somebody did not belong to us should come to our premises because it was quite detrimental and dangerous for us because they would come and plead that they belong to our group and then they would shoot us and run away. They would make believe that they have joined the ANC and left the Inkatha and before we knew they would have shot somebody and ran back to where they belong again. That was the situation. MS THABETE When people came to your hostel did you like try to find out whether they belonged to your organisation or you just - if they didn't belonged to your organisation, you just shot them? Did you speak to them or you just shot them, that's what I'm trying to find out? MR MKUKWANA Are you referring when they come at night or during the day? MS THABETE At night, for example in this incident? MR MKUKWANA People would not come at night. Whoever came at night, they would come at their own risk. People wouldn't come and say they want to join our side at night. MS THABETE Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions. Sorry, did you establish later, after you had shot these people that they were in fact IFP people? Were they in fact IFP people, the deceased as well as the two people you attempted to kill? MR MKUKWANA They said they were not politically aligned in court but I was aware of the fact that the way they left the premises, it showed that they belonged to that other party because they wouldn't have left to go and stay where the other party members were staying. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba, have you got any questions? MR MOHLABA Thank you, I've got no further questions. CHAIRPERSON When were you convicted? MR MKUKWANA In 1993. CHAIRPERSON When? MR MKUKWANA I think it was on the 5th May 1993. CHAIRPERSON When were you arrested? MR MKUKWANA I was arrested in 1991. CHAIRPERSON What month? MR MKUKWANA I think it's June. CHAIRPERSON Now after your arrest until the time you were convinced were you afforded any bail? MR MKUKWANA Yes I was granted bail of R2000. CHAIRPERSON Were you released as a result thereof? MR MKUKWANA Yes I was released and then I managed to continue working. CHAIRPERSON And then on your sentence you were incarcerated? MR MKUKWANA That is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did the activities of - if I can term it that these defence institutions at the hostel where you stayed, that those activities continued while you were on bail? MR MKUKWANA Are you referring to whilst I was - before I got bail or after I had been sentenced? CHAIRPERSON While you were on bail, in between your arrest and your conviction? MR MKUKWANA Yes they continued. CHAIRPERSON And these people who attacked the hostel in which you were living, did they continue attacking your hostel during that period? MR MKUKWANA Yes they continued with the attacks. CHAIRPERSON And all these offences for which you apply for amnesty occurred within the area of where you stayed or ...(intervention) MR MKUKWANA They happened where I was staying. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Any other witnesses or bits of evidence Mr Mohlaba? MR MOHLABA None Mr Chairman, it concludes the evidence with the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete? MS THABETE No evidence Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabete, have you got any submissions to make? MS THABETE No Mr Chair. Sorry Mr Chair, can I put it on record that we had set this matter earlier on in February but we wanted to afford an opportunity to the victims to come forward so we did make an advertisement on the paper and on the radio but no one came forward. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Mr Mohlaba we don't need to hear any submissions from you in this matter.