amntrans MZOLISI B MHLAKAZA: AM 3139/96 1999-04-14 JOHANNESBURG 3 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53282&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99041214_jhb_990414jh.htm CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to proceed? MR MOHLABA Certainly. I'm ready to proceed on the matter of Mhlakaza. CHAIRPERSON Let us go ahead. MR MOHLABA Mr Mhlakaza will also want to testify in Xhosa. MZOLISI B. MHLAKAZA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Mr Mhlakaza, you were born on the 15th September 1966 in Transkei, is that correct? MR MHLAKAZA That is correct, Sir. MR MOHLABA Are you married and do you have children of your own? MR MHLAKAZA That is correct. MR MOHLABA You are applying for an amnesty for an offence of murder, assault and malicious damage to property, is that correct? MR MHLAKAZA That is correct. MR MOHLABA And the basis on which you apply for this amnesty is that your offences were committed with a political objective, is that correct? MR MHLAKAZA That is correct. MR MOHLABA And these offences were committed on or about the 7th July 1991, is that correct? MR MHLAKAZA That is correct. MR MOHLABA Were you during that period a member of a political organisation or any recognised institution? MR MHLAKAZA I was an ANC follower. MR MOHLABA And where were you staying during this period. MR MHLAKAZA I was staying in Chicken Farm in Kliptown. MR MOHLABA Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit? MR MHLAKAZA That is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Self Defence Units never existed that time, not of the kind that we know now. MR MHLAKAZA They were not formally established but because of the violence that was there at that time the community came together in a meeting and we decided to take means of defending the community ourselves. CHAIRPERSON Within your confines of where you were living? MR MHLAKAZA Yes Sir, where I was living. MR MOHLABA With respect to this offence of murder, did you know the victim before he was attacked and killed? MR MHLAKAZA I did not know the deceased before. MR MOHLABA Can you explain to the Committee how this offence was committed and everything that happened? MR MHLAKAZA In 1991 on July 7th we were patrolling on a Saturday. We were patrolling since the 6th on a Saturday until 2 o'clock. Whilst we were sitting in watch when normally the disruptions would start, we saw a police Casspir which was far in the distance and it stood next to some trees in some open veld in ...(indistinct) and some people alighted from that Casspir and when we watched we wanted to see which direction were they going to take these people and they were coming in our direction towards Chicken Farm. They split into groups and went different directions and they entered the squatter camps and that is when we whistled for alert so that people should be aware that trouble has started and as soon as they arrived there were gunshots and we counter-attacked as well. We shot back. One of them who was trying to run away, they entered the squatter camp area and we gave chase and we found one who was trying to hide in one shack. We took him out and stabbed him. Before stabbing him we asked him as to "on which side are you because we have just seen you coming running.?" He did not deny, he just simply told us the truth that he belongs to the IFP and that led him to be killed. Thereafter we saw some shadows in some shack and we just ignored those shadows but when we saw that these people running into another house, we broke the door and we found a couple and we asked this man "you can see that people are outside, there's a fight on, how come are you indoors because when trouble starts all men must go outside to fight?" and that is where an argument started and he climbed on the bed because he became scared and my accomplice asked him to get off the bed and he thought, my accomplice thought this person was trying to fight and he stabbed him in the face and we went out to continue with our patrols. We overthrew the other group and until in the morning. MR MOHLABA Did you know where the deceased was staying or did you gain that - or after the fact did you ultimately gain knowledge of where he stays? MR MHLAKAZA I did not know where the deceased stayed. CHAIRPERSON Malicious injury to property that you apply for, is that the breaking into that house where that gentleman was stabbed? MR MHLAKAZA That is correct, Sir. The breaking down of the door. CHAIRPERSON Is there an address or some identifiable feature to which we can refer to this house? MR MOHLABA In the Chicken Farm some of the shacks did not have numbers. CHAIRPERSON So this house was on the Chicken Farm as well? MR MHLAKAZA Yes it was also on Chicken Farm. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR MOHLABA Do you know a person called Elliot Fudamele? MR MHLAKAZA Yes I know him. MR MOHLABA Can you explain who is Elliot Fudamele? MR MHLAKAZA Elliot Fudamele is one of our comrades who left because of the conflict that was there at the time and he went to stay in Orange Farm. MR MOHLABA I refer the Committee to an affidavit by Fudamele. I'm not certain as to the correct page number in the bundle. CHAIRPERSON I've read it. What's the purpose of this affidavit? MR MOHLABA The purpose of the affidavit, Chair, is just to confirm that the applicant was in fact at that area, he was known in that area during that period, for what it's worth. CHAIRPERSON And that he conducted a watch over the Chicken Farm to avoid attacks. MR MOHLABA And that will conclude the applicant's testimony. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any questions Ms Thabete? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETE Just one Mr Chair. How were you arrested, how did it come about that you were arrested? MR MHLAKAZA When we saw that these conflicts has come down I told my friend that I have to go to work tomorrow and I have to sleep early so that I should be at work on time. My friend was still there. We were arrested because of the lady whose door we damaged because this also happened in front of her shack. CHAIRPERSON What is that lady's name? MR MHLAKAZA I later learned in court that she was called Normakepu. CHAIRPERSON Is that her first name or surname? MR MHLAKAZA It's her first name. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what her surname is? MR MHLAKAZA I have forgotten the surname. CHAIRPERSON Can she be found on this Chicken Farm? MR MHLAKAZA That I'm not sure of, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Are you in prison at the moment? MR MHLAKAZA That is correct, Sir, I'm in prison. CHAIRPERSON What were you sentenced? MR MHLAKAZA I was sentenced to 26 and a half months. CHAIRPERSON Months? MR MHLAKAZA 26 and a half years, I beg your pardon. MS THABETE Okay, the assault that you were convicted of, is the assault on the man you found in the shack with the couple? The assault that you were convicted of, is it the assault which was done by your accomplice in the shack where you found this couple, this man sitting on the bed? MR MHLAKAZA That is correct. MS THABETE And was this man also part of the Chicken Farm? MR MHLAKAZA Yes, he was one of our comrades who was staying there in Chicken Farm. MS THABETE Now what political objective did you seek to apply by assaulting him or what political objective would you have obtained by assaulting one of your own? MR MHLAKAZA When he alighted the bed as I have said, my friend thought that he was retaliating and my friend had a knife and he stabbed him in the forehead. CHAIRPERSON When were you sentenced? MR MHLAKAZA In 1992 on the 10th September. CHAIRPERSON And what sentence did you get for the assault? MR MHLAKAZA Two years for the assault. CHAIRPERSON Have you already completed that sentence? MR MHLAKAZA Yes I've already completed that sentence. MS THABETE Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE CHAIRPERSON The same questions can be asked of the malicious injury to property. What political objective would you have sought to achieve by kicking down the door? MR MHLAKAZA What made us break the door down was due to the fact that we were not sure that the person who really inside this house was one of the people that we were chasing and we asked them to open the door and they refused to and that is why we broke down the door. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, you are excused. MR MHLAKAZA Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Mohlaba, have you got any submissions to make, we only want you if you want to. We only need submissions on the question of assault. MR MOHLABA I've got no submission, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any submissions? MS THABETE No submissions Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, we will take time to make a decision on this issue and it will be published in due course. Is that the roll for the day? MS THABETE Yes Mr Chair it is. I would suggest that we remove from the roll the matter of Mr Gerane. CHAIRPERSON Ja well, before we get to that - Mr Mohlaba, what has happened to that other client of yours? MR MOHLABA It's Mr Gerane, I did not see him, he did not show up and he is outside, he is not in custody and the last time he appeared it was suggested by the presiding officers that if certain information could be found this matter could be treated as a chamber matter and ever since I could not get contact with him. CHAIRPERSON Now what do you propose to do, it's after all your client? MR MOHLABA That the matter be struck off the roll. CHAIRPERSON Has he been informed that the matter is coming up today? MR MOHLABA He was not formally informed and I had a discussion with Ms Thabete that because there was a difficulty in finding him that I will convey the message through to him and through my contact I did convey message but I don't have a confirmation that he was in fact advised of this. CHAIRPERSON Well then we can't strike the matter from the roll because he has not been formally informed. I think the matter must then be postponed sine die in order to give the TRC an opportunity to contact him. Okay, so be it, that matter is then postponed sine die. What about tomorrow's matters? We've got two left, I see the one hasn't even got an amnesty number? MS THABETE Which one? CHAIRPERSON What is the position with those Ms Thabete? MS THABETE Mr Chair, the other one which doesn't have a reference number, the reference number is 7647/97. The position with regard to these two applications Mr Chair, is that it's one matter and Section 19.4 notice was served by our investigator, Oba. CHAIRPERSON For which date? MS THABETE For tomorrow, Mr Chair, so I'm not in a position to know whether they will be coming tomorrow or not because they are not in prison. CHAIRPERSON Are they in prison? MS THABETE They are not in prison and the last time, Mr Chair, why I am saying I'm not in a position to know whether they will pitch up tomorrow it's because they were set down in February and they were not heard because they did not pitch at the hearing so I'm really not sure whether they will pitch this time. CHAIRPERSON In the meantime has the TRC made any effort to contact them? MS THABETE They were served personally Mr Chair with the Section 19.4 notice. CHAIRPERSON After September's hearing? MS THABETE After February's hearing yes. CHAIRPERSON So do you have an address? MS THABETE Yes Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON And a phone number perhaps? MS THABETE No phone number. CHAIRPERSON Is there no way we can contact them at those addresses or that address? MS THABETE I telephoned Oba to come to the hearings today because we wanted to establish whether they would be coming tomorrow to the hearings. We will try and establish that fact today so that we don't waste time and come here tomorrow only to find out that they wont be here. CHAIRPERSON By what time will you know? MS THABETE Sorry Mr Chair, can you give me a minute? Mr Chair, our Investigator is here, Mr Oba, he says he did serve these notices personally so we'll try and find out today whether they will be coming tomorrow or not. CHAIRPERSON I see it's one o'clock now. How long would you need to find that out? MS THABETE Apparently there is a guy they trust who we can contact telephonically so we'll phone this guy quickly to find out. CHAIRPERSON Well I'll wait in Chambers then you can come tell us. MS THABETE Okay. CHAIRPERSON We'll adjourn for lunch. MS THABETE Thank you Mr Chair. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS NO FURTHER MECHANICAL RECORDING