amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-04-29 EAST LONDON 3 MSIANDA NTONGA AM2018/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53308&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99042630_el_990429el.htm MSIANDA NTONGA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR KINCAID Mr Chairperson, mindful of what you addressed to me earlier as to the specifics of the amnesty application, at page 30 of the bundle, the offences for which he was convicted and sentenced appear. Msianda, are you comfortable if I call you by your first name? MR NTONGA Yes I'm comfortable. MR KINCAID Jimmy has testified before this Committee and he has set out the circumstances and the context in which life was lived in Stutterheim from the period 1985 to the period of the commission of these offences in 1990. Do you agree with Jimmy's assessment of this situation in Stutterheim covering that time period? MR NTONGA Yes, it is like Jimmy said. MR KINCAID How old are you now, Mr Ntonga, Msianda, how old are you now? MR NTONGA I'm 26 years old. MR KINCAID At the time of the commission of these offences you were still a teenager, you were still a young man is that correct? MR NTONGA That is correct. MR KINCAID And Jimmy has described how it was that the youth of the Stutterheim communities were at the forefront of the violent struggle with the security forces. Were you likewise involved in that struggle? MR NTONGA That is correct. MR KINCAID Were you a member of a political organisation? MR NTONGA I was not a member, I was a supporter of the ANC. MR KINCAID Now Jimmy described how you attended a meeting in the church hall, the Matamela church hall in the Kabosi Township. Were you at the hall on that particular day when the security forces came and raided the hall? MR NTONGA Yes I was present at the hall. MR KINCAID Jimmy described how people were shot and teargassed and how they were violently dispersed. What kind of emotions did that incident instil in you, how did you react to that incident? MR NTONGA That was a painful event because the teargas that was in that hall went in front of my home. Even though I was still young at that time it also effected me emotionally. MR KINCAID In what way? MR NTONGA Because I realised that we were not safe and even my family was not safe. MR KINCAID Jimmy then testified to two meetings which were held consequently upon the shooting of that church hall, they were held on a soccer field, Jimmy says. Do you know anything of those meetings? MR NTONGA Yes that is so, I do have a knowledge about the meetings. MR KINCAID Did you attend there Msianda, did you attend those meetings? MR NTONGA That is correct, I was present. MR KINCAID And can you confirm or tell the Committee what broadly speaking the decision of the meeting was? MR NTONGA The decision that was taken in those meetings was that there were going to be letters that would be sent to the farmers around our community to tell them that they should leave their places and look for other places in town and the youth as we realised that we were not safe, we were told to look for weapons so that we can defend the people in the community. MR KINCAID Is that how it came to be that you involved yourself in the incidents starting off with the attack on Mr Hansel, did you go to Mr Hansel's home and did you attack him there? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MR KINCAID Why did you decide that it was right, why did you align yourself, why did you associate yourself with this group that went to attack Mr Hansel? MR NTONGA At that time when you were at my age you were supposed to involve yourself or associate yourself because if you did not do that you'd be seen as a person who was not doing something that was right so I associated myself because of what I saw, what was done by the police to our community at the time, the police together with the soldiers, that is why I decided to take part in that. MR KINCAID And what did you do, did you cause any injury or in any way assault Mr Hansel? What was your act of involvement in the attack on his home and on him? MR NTONGA The role that I took was to test the firearm on a photo that was hanging on the wall, I wanted to test whether the firearm was working properly. I tested that firearm and I found that it was operating. My other role before he showed us the firearm he didn't want to show us that, I also hit him, I took part in hitting him and then he showed us the firearm. I then stopped hitting him and I tested the firearm in his house, inside his house. That's the role I took. MR KINCAID Jimmy said that there was a large group of people who throughout the incidents involved themselves in the attacks on these farmers, that it wasn't just the seven of you who were tried in the Supreme Court, that the groups were always big on that or what do you make of that observation? MR NTONGA Yes that is true, it was not only the seven of us, it was not only those who were arrested, there were other people too. MR KINCAID Did you bear Mr Hansel any ill will or spite, did you have any personal reason for wanting to injure him, Msianda? MR NTONGA No, I didn't have anything against him and I was not even related to him but I was there because of what we were looking for and also wanted to threaten him so that he can leave that area. MR KINCAID Did you take any of his property Msianda? Did you take any of his clothing or his linen or any other thing which was not a weapon or an arm? MR NTONGA I only remember the firearm that was with me and eight bullets that's all, I don't remember anything else. There's nothing else I saw except those even though we were a group of people inside. MR KINCAID The attack on Mr Cobus, were you party to that? MR NTONGA That is correct. MR KINCAID And what was your involvement in the attack on Mr Cobus, did you personally cause him any injury or assault him in any way? MR NTONGA What I did - are you referring to Mr Erickie? MR KINCAID Yes. MR NTONGA I shot at him. MR KINCAID Why did you shoot at him? MR NTONGA The reason was I was afraid because he missed me with a firearm, I was just trying to scare him, I was trying to shoot through a window and then he got shot. I didn't think that I would hit him or the bullet would strike him, I thought I was just scaring him. We told him that we also had a weapon so he must stop shooting, we were not there to kill him, we just wanted a weapon. We were outside next to the window when we were talking to him. MR KINCAID You mention that you did not want to kill him. Jimmy testified that the meeting decision was that farmers were not to be killed. Do you confirm Jimmy's testimony in that regard? MR NTONGA Yes, those were the instructions that we were given after we were told to intimidate or threaten the farmers, we were told not to kill them and we were told them not to take anything else except for the weapons and the camouflages of the military uniform. MR KINCAID So you were alive to that warning when you shot at Mr Erickie, Mr Cobus, were you or were you aiming to kill him? MR NTONGA Yes I was not aiming to kill him because I didn't even see where he was I was just shooting. MR KINCAID The evidence disclosed that you were unable to get any firearms from Mr Cobus, Mr Erickie. The next incident would have been the Pretorius incident when both Mr Pretorius and his farm assistant Mr Senti were injured. What was your involvement in those attacks Msianda? MR NTONGA Can you please repeat your question, Sir? MR KINCAID Mr Pretorius and Joe Senti, how did you involve yourself in the attacks on them or what role did you play? MR NTONGA In Mr Pretorius' I also had a firearm. First of all we went to the servants' quarters and we knocked at the door, we wanted them to open the door for us and as he was closing the door I was aiming at the door because I could see that he didn't want to open the door. I just wanted to threaten him to open the door because he had opened the door but he closed the door so as he was closing the door I wanted just to scare him, I shot at the door and unfortunately his hands at the door so he got shot and I saw that when we were inside and apologised to him because my intention was not to shoot at him but to scare him because we wanted him to open the door. We did not want him to be shot, we wanted him to take us to the farmhouse. MR KINCAID Mr Pretorius, did you shoot Mr Pretorius? MR NTONGA That is correct. MR KINCAID Why did you shoot Mr Pretorius? MR NTONGA The reason why I shot Mr Pretorius is because I was trying to scare him as he was coming out from the house and there were dogs and the firearm was on and the dog came towards me and I pulled the trigger and the firearm was pointing in his direction. Those were not my intentions, I didn't want to shoot at him, I just wanted him to come towards us. MR KINCAID You say the firearm was pointed in his direction, how were you holding the firearm, did you take deliberate aim or how were you holding this firearm that it was pointed at him? MR NTONGA I was holding it as I'm demonstrating but it was pointing towards his direction, I was just scaring him and the dog appeared and it disturbed me and I pulled the trigger. MR KINCAID For purposes of the record Mr Chairman, the applicant indicates that he had the firearm tucked under his right shoulder and indicated that he held it out extended conveying that there was not deliberate aiming of the firearm. MR KINCAID Now the shooting of Mr Cobus, the shooting of Mr Pretorius, the shooting of Joe Senti, were those shootings occasioned by any ill will, any spite, any malice, any personal dislike for those victims on your part? MR NTONGA No I didn't even know them, even the employees, Mr Pretorius' employees, I didn't know them so there was no hatred. Our intentions was to get weapons and to threaten him or to scare him away from his area. There was nothing else apart from that. MR KINCAID I have a possession of an affidavit which I'm going to ask that you confirm in due course but in it you state at paragraph 3 "I am responsible for the shooting of Mr Pretorius and of Mr Senti. When I discharged those shots I was caught up in the fear of the moment. It was dark, dogs were barking, the firearm was in my hands and without deliberate aim the shots were discharged." And then you say: "To Mr Pretorius and Mr Senti I say sorry for this wrong." And do you confirm that apology in your testimony? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MR KINCAID Dealing with the attack on Mrs Clackers, Msianda, were you involved in this attack? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MR KINCAID How many of you were involved in the attack on Mrs Clackers? MR NTONGA There were three of us. MR KINCAID Yourself, Jimmy and? MR NTONGA And the other Nokawusana. MR KINCAID Why did you decide to attack Mrs Clackers, why was she the target? MR NTONGA The reason was because at the time there was a consumer boycott, you were not supposed to buy at shops that were owned by white people and we found out that she was trading in that area. We then decided that certain comrades should go and tell her to close that shop, wanted to threaten her so that she can close the shop. We didn't want to stop people from buying, we wanted her to close the shop or we would burn the shop and the other reason was to tell them to leave the area and if we found any weapons we would take them, that's why we went to Mrs Clackers. MR KINCAID Jimmy wasn't quite sure what the motive was, he suggested that it was to tell her to stop trading but only later on in his testament did he say that when he realised that Mrs Clackers was reaching for something under the counter did he perceive the possibility that she was armed. Is your testimony that before you set out to Mrs Clackers that the purpose of getting firearms was in your mind at least or one of the objectives? MR NTONGA Yes at all times when we were going to the White people we did think that we might get a weapon because it was rare that White people did not have weapons, especially in the rural areas so that was in our minds. MR KINCAID Did you assault or injure Mrs Clackers in any way? MR NTONGA No I didn't touch her. MR KINCAID Did you have any role on that particular day in that incident, what did you do, if you did anything? MR NTONGA Yes I did take part, my role, because there were dogs in that area and those dogs were coming towards us I took a broom and I hit the dogs and they went out of the back room and the other one was looking out for the police or for anybody who would come around and as I was hitting these dogs I met a White boy, I tried to call him because I wanted him to come inside the shop to be together with Mrs Clackers and he ran away to the house. I thought that he might be reaching or going to get a weapon so I told my colleagues that there's this somebody who came and who ran away so we were disturbed and we left. That was my role. MR KINCAID It's suggested that your purpose in going to Mrs Clackers' trading store was merely to rob her of money. What do you make of that contention Msianda? MR NTONGA I don't know anything about money because I didn't take any money, I just took part as I've already explained before. We then ran away, the three of us, I didn't see any money from them and they didn't show me any weapon. We just came back empty handed. MR KINCAID The charge sheet alleged and you were convicted of a theft of some batteries as well, batteries and a bread knife. Did you take batteries or a bread knife or any money? MR NTONGA No I don't remember those things, I don't remember seeing those things or those people. MR KINCAID The Marulia incident, Msianda, were you party to the attack on Mrs Marulia? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MR KINCAID Jimmy's testimony was that the group which attacked Mrs Marulia went to Kei Road in a Combi, confirm that? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MR KINCAID What was your role, what was your involvement in the attack on Mrs Marulia? MR NTONGA My role was this, after - is this Mrs Marulia, in Kei Road? I took weapons and bullets, that's my role. I took two rifles and a lot of bullets, that is all I can remember taking. MR KINCAID Did you assault or injure Mrs Marulia in any way? MR NTONGA No, I didn't even see her and I never saw her before. I didn't see anybody there, I just saw blood inside. MR KINCAID Msianda, the charge sheet alleges again that there were goods stolen from Mrs Marulia's house which weren't weapons or arms, goods of the normal household nature, cooking utensils and money. Did you see anyone steal this, did you steal it, were you party to it's removal? MR NTONGA I didn't take any part in that and I didn't see anybody taking such goods, I only saw the items that I had with me, those I just described. MR KINCAID The point 22 pistol and the ammunition? MR NTONGA Yes I saw the two pistols and the other one had two barrels and the other one had one barrel and one trigger and a Z38. Those were the three weapons that we found there and a lot of bullets, ammunition that we found. That is all I saw. MR KINCAID Did you bear Mrs Marulia any ill will or spite, did you have any personal reason for wanting to injure her and attack her? MR NTONGA As I've already said, I never saw her before, I didn't know her so there was no hatred, I had nothing against her. We were just there to do what we had done to other farmers. MR KINCAID Do you know what became of those firearms, the firearms that you took from Mr Hansel, from Mrs Marulia? What became of those firearms, were they used in the struggle? What happened? MR NTONGA What happened is when we left Mrs Marulia's some of us were left behind. The weapons that we found there, they weren't with other comrades. I got hold of the firearms that was used by Mr Nokawusana because the police came and others went back with a Combi and others walked so I took the firearm that was with Mr Nokawusana so I don't know what happened to the others but according to my knowledge we had to surrender whatever we found in the roadblock. MR KINCAID So the weapons that you recovered from the farmers were to be left at the roadblocks, is that your testimony? MR NTONGA Yes that is so. MR KINCAID Jimmy has tendered an apology to the victims of these incidents. In your confirmatory affidavit you indicate that you wish to echo that apology. Do you confirm that under oath? MR NTONGA Yes I confirm that. MR KINCAID Okay, that's the evidence in chief Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KINCAID CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you Mr Kincaid. We'll adjourn for 15 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We have had, in the course of the tea adjournment, a power failure in apparently of this part of the city and that has unfortunately disrupted the proceedings. We were compelled to take an early lunch adjournment and it's for that reason that we are restarting the proceedings at this time, at 13H30 and we are hopeful that we would be able to catch up any time which has been lost in the process. Of course it was beyond control of any one of us. Mr Ntonga, I want to remind you that you are still under oath, do you understand that? MSIANDA NTONGA (s.u.o.) Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Clarke, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CLARKE Thank you Mr Chairman I have a number of questions to the witness, the applicant. If I may proceed? Thank you. Mr Ntonga, prior to your going to prison what formal education did you have? MR NTONGA Standard one. MR CLARKE Standard one? When did you do Standard one, what year? MR NTONGA I stopped school in 1983 or 1984 I don't remember well. MR CLARKE Thank you. Now I hope when you testify you'll appreciate that if we - if I personally do not believe the evidence that you give that I will ask the Committee to disregard your evidence? Do you appreciate that? MR NTONGA I do hear what you're saying. MR CLARKE Good. Now I think I made a note that your belief was or that your instructions were at all times that you were not to commit any acts of theft, is that the correct position, in your various visits to these farmhouses and stores? MR NTONGA That is correct. MR CLARKE Okay. Who issued that instruction? MR NTONGA It was Randele Manele. MR CLARKE I see and was it he who instructed you to go out and look for weapons? MR NTONGA Yes he was the speaker of the community. MR CLARKE I see. Now who instructed you to go to Mrs Clackers' store? MR NTONGA We were not given an order but we decided that when we were in the roadblock. MR CLARKE Was that yourself plus the - when you say we decided, was that you and the Nokawusana brothers? MR NTONGA It was myself together with the comrades that were embarked in a roadblock and they were also present. MR CLARKE Who were those comrades? MR NTONGA I don't know there names or I don't know all of them but I only know those that were with me. There were a lot of us in the roadblock. MR CLARKE You can't name them though? MR NTONGA No I can't name them. MR CLARKE I see. ADV SANDI I'm sorry Mr Clarke, can I just? You say you can't name them, do you mean to say that you don't know who they are or should we take it that you do know them but you're not prepared to name them? MR NTONGA What I mean is I don't know their names because there were a lot of us there, I only know those that were with me. MR CLARKE Thank you through you, Mr Chairman. So the three of you then decided that you would go and visit this trading store, is that correct? MR NTONGA No, that is not correct, we didn't decide it was not only the three of us what decided but people were sent to go there. The three of us were sent by the comrades who were in the roadblock to go to the shop. MR CLARKE You were party to that decision, you and the other two were party to that decision? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct because we were also there, we participated in that decision, it was not only us though. MR CLARKE Now I would like you in your own words to tell the Committee what happened? MR NTONGA Where we were going? MR CLARKE I would like you to tell the Committee what happened when you arrived there at Mrs Clackers' door? MR NTONGA We went to the shop in Mrs Clackers' farm. When we arrived there we went in and there were people who were inside, I don't know how many there were, I think there were two or three but there were not many. We asked her why was she trading in her shop because there was this consumer boycott. MR CLARKE Who is we, who do you refer to when you say we asked? MR NTONGA It was myself and the two Nokawusana. MR CLARKE Did all three of you ask together? MR NTONGA No, it was not like that but what I'm saying is I was also there. It was Mr Nokawusana who was speaking to her. MR CLARKE Jimmy? MR NTONGA Yes. MR CLARKE What did you do? MR NTONGA When he asked her that question, when he asked Mrs Clackers that question, Mrs Clackers reached for something under the counter and Mr Nokawusana went on that other side of the counter and the dogs came out inside the shop and I helped him with the dogs, I was hitting the dogs and he was struggling with Mrs Clackers. I went out to hit the dogs and they went out through the back door of the shop. I chased the dogs outside and when I was near the door I saw a white boy who was about my age and I called him to the shop and he didn't come, he ran away when he saw me, he ran towards the house, Mrs Clackers' house and I came back. I went back to the shop and I told them that there was this particular person and I was not sure whether he was going to look for a weapon or what and we didn't have a weapon with us so we ran away. MR CLARKE Now Mrs Clackers suffered very, very serious bruising around her throat here, around her windpipe. Who had grabbed her on her windpipe like that? MR NTONGA I cannot dispute that but I never touched her, the person who was wrestling with her was Jimmy, my job was to hit the dogs. MR CLARKE So was it Jimmy who grabbed her by the throat? Was it Jimmy that grabbed her by the throat? MR NTONGA I do not know of that. MR CLARKE Mr Ntonga you were there and you were present and you were watching what was going on not so? MR NTONGA I was not watching I was also busy on the other side. MR CLARKE My client believes that it is you that eventually approached her with a knife, is that the position? MR NTONGA No there's nothing like that. MR CLARKE Now my instructions are that this happened very shortly after 2 p.m. after she'd reopened after lunch break. Do you agree with that? MR NTONGA I did not have a watch, I did not check the time. MR CLARKE Did it happen in the early afternoon, you don't need a watch to tell that? MR NTONGA It happened during the day but I do not know what time was it and I did not ask for some time before doing the job, I did not ask for time before doing the job. MR CLARKE Okay. My instructions are that there were no other people in the shop but for the three of you? Do you agree with that? MR NTONGA Myself and the person who was there I am saying there were people there but I cannot tell how many people were there. If there were not two there were three, we found them inside the shop. MR CLARKE Now on your evidence I understand your role was that the first thing you did was that you chased the dogs with a broomstick and in the second part you kept guard, you kept watch to see that no one was coming to interfere with this assault on Mrs Clackers, is that the position? MR NTONGA I was not watching, I was not on guard for anything but I was trying to drive these dogs away because they were disturbing. As Jimmy was busy wrestling with the lady as we don't what the lady was doing under the counter. There was someone else who was watching. MR CLARKE My notes on your evidence in chief suggests that in the first place you had a broom to see to the dogs and your second role was that of looking out which I understand to mean to be keeping a watch out. Did you not say that in your evidence in chief? MR NTONGA I saw a person though I was not watching anything but I saw a person, a White person who looked more or less my age and then I came to tell them it's not that I was watching because I saw them from the inside, there was a person who was on the outside, who was doing the job of watching, the other person who was with us. MR CLARKE Can you tell me if your mission was simply to arrive there and tell Mrs Clackers that she should close her shop, if that was purely your mission, why was it necessary or why should she have appeared to try and draw a gun from under the counter? MR NTONGA I will not know, I think she knows, I won't know the reason for that. MR CLARKE It doesn't make good sense does it? MR NTONGA She is the one who was trying to get something underneath the counter and I did not know what she was doing there but I just thought to myself that she was trying to get a firearm because when we came in she was not doing anything under the counter but when we told her to close the shop she started touching, trying to reach out to get something underneath, that is why I suspected that she might be looking for a gun. MR CLARKE I put it to you that it sounds unlikely because your entire story is unlikely, but what you were doing there was carrying out a robbery. What do you say to that? MR NTONGA I am saying that we did not go there for robbery, we went there as I have explained. We went there to close the shop, we wanted her to put a padlock at the shop, to lock the shop completely because we couldn't prevent the people from buying in her shop because her shop was in a place that was more like a remote place so we wanted her to close the shop by putting a padlock. MR CLARKE Consistently the course of action which you and your fellow comrades adopted was not one of going in peace to ask people to do things. Consistently the pattern of action that you and your comrades adopted was one of aggression and attack and I put it to you that all of the evidence that has been collected indicates that? MR NTONGA Yes that is true, we were using force, we couldn't ask them in the normal way, we were threatening her because we knew that it was not easy for her to close a shop and that was her source of income. MR CLARKE Now it seems to be accepted that money was stolen from this shop and batteries and a carving knife. Who would have taken those goods? MR NTONGA I do not dispute that but myself and the comrades, it was during the day and it was so bright that I did not see anything because we got a fright when we saw this boy because our aim was to get hold of that firearm of which even that firearm we did not get it at the end. MR CLARKE What makes you - do you believe that there was a firearm there? MR NTONGA I am not certain but we were just suspecting because of the manner which she reacted because when we came in she was not doing anything underneath the counter but when we told her to close the shop and then she started looking up for something under the counter we suspected that she was actually reaching for her gun. MR CLARKE Do you admit that she was very grievously assaulted? MR NTONGA I cannot say yes or no because I never touched her. She was busy wrestling with Jimmy Nokawusana. MR CLARKE I put it to you that you saw exactly what was going on there. You were there and you were present and you would have seen what was going on, not so? MR NTONGA I was not watching I was busy doing my own job on the side, I did not have time to look at what the other person was doing because I was also playing my role. MR CLARKE So you didn't see what happened to Mrs Clackers at all? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. I just saw them wrestling, with Jimmy and nothing else. MR CLARKE I'm going to ask the court - I'm going to ask this Committee to reject your evidence because you are being, in my view, evasive, Mr Ntonga, by saying that you saw nothing? Mr Chairman, if you could bear with me please? Did you hear the account of what happened that I put to your fellow comrade, Jimmy? MR NTONGA Yes I was listening. MR CLARKE I'm not - do you remember what she said - what I said? MR NTONGA No I cannot remember everything. MR CLARKE Do you remember the thrust of it was that one of your number first entered the shop then the second one climbed on the counter and assaulted Mrs Clackers, that there was a scuffle, that at some stage the till was pulled off the counter and that a third party then joined and was about to stab her before that third one which we suspect is you desisted. Do you deny that? MR NTONGA Yes I deny that, I know exactly what I was doing there. I deny the fact that I came with a knife. MR CLARKE And our further suggestion is that you were party to a robbery in that certain things were taken from the shop by force. Do you deny that? MR NTONGA That is not so, yes I was in the shop, we went there to close the shop. MR CLARKE My further submission to you is that the community as such gave you no mandate whatsoever to visit this shop and that that is apparent from your very own evidence. What do you say to that? MR NTONGA That is not true. MR CLARKE That the decision to go and rob the shop emanated from you and a number of your comrades, not so? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MR CLARKE I further put it to you that if there was a decision by the community that white shops should be boycotted, to go and beat up a woman who is running the shop on her own there does not reflect a decision to boycott but rather as an act of thuggery. Do you concede that? MR NTONGA I do not see it that way. MR CLARKE By promoting a boycott, you persuade the consumers not to buy there, you don't go and beat up the shopkeeper, do you? MR NTONGA Yes that is true, we don't go to the shops, we just write a message but that shop was on the farm and we couldn't go there and establish some roadblocks because the people from that area and the near farms that were closer to her would go and buy there but we just wanted her to put a padlock outside her shop so that there would be no people who would go there secretly and buy. That was the reason that made us to go and tell her so because that never used to be a procedure with the other business people, White business people, because we had closed the roads. We knew where the people used to buy, that is why we had to go to her shop to go and tell her to close the shop because her shop was inside the farm. MR CLARKE My instructions are, in closing, that your conduct was simply a very cowardly act of robbery, crime of robbery. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLARKE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Clarke. Ms Patel, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Mr Ntonga, I just want to briefly go through the offences for which you've been convicted of as set out on page 30 of the bundle of documents that we have before us. I see there that you are found guilty of malicious damage to property in that the telephone lines of Mr Hansel was cut. I just want to know, you haven't mentioned anything about your involvement in cutting the telephone lines. Can you just tell us whether you were in fact involved in that, whether you had any knowledge that those lines were cut? MR NTONGA I was not looking at everything, I was concentrating on my job and most of these things would happen during the night and it wasn't easy for one to see who is doing what but normally whenever we were about to do something the cutting of the telephone wires used to be the first thing to do. MS PATEL Okay. So this was part of the plan that you were aware of but you yourself personally was not involved in. Okay can we move on from there? You were also found guilty of the attempted murder of Mr Cobus. Now you've stated in your supplementary affidavit to us - oh no, I see that relates to Mr Pretorius and Mr Senti, sorry. In your evidence to us you said that "I was afraid" you were afraid when you shot and that you weren't sure - sorry Honourable Chair, if I can just gather my thoughts? You state here that: "I was not aiming to kill him, did not even see where he was, I was just shooting" Does that mean that you did not intend to kill any person who was on the premises that night? MR NTONGA Yes I'm trying to explain that it was not my intention to shoot him, I just wanted to scare him so that he should know that what he had at the time is also what we had. MS PATEL Okay, if you just wanted to scare him, why shoot him in the face? MR NTONGA I couldn't even see him from where I was, I was just shooting because I wanted him to know that we had a firearm and a real firearm, that is the reason that made to hit him but that was never my intention. MS PATEL If your intention was only to prove that your firearm was in fact a real one, why didn't you shoot into the air, why shoot into the man's face? MR NTONGA As I've already explained, I couldn't even see him, I was not even aiming at him, I was just scaring him, therefore I couldn't shoot in the air, that would look like a tall gun. I wanted him to understand that that was a real gun, therefore that is why I couldn't shoot in the air. MS PATEL Okay. Then Mr Cobus' telephone wires were also cut and you were found guilty of malicious damage to property in respect of that. Is your response in respect of your knowledge of the telephone wires being cut for this incident the same as in Mr Hansel's? MR NTONGA Yes, I did not see who cut the telephone wires but I am sure that the telephone wires were cut there as that used to be the first thing to do whenever we are about to do a job. MS PATEL Okay. Can you tell us how entry was gained into Mr Cobus' house? MR NTONGA I remember when I got in through a window with a certain group I am not sure whether it was a bathroom window but I remember getting indoor with a certain group of people. MS PATEL Okay and was it your intention to find weapons only and ammunition if possible? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct and we also wanted him to get the message that he should vacate the place. MS PATEL I'm sorry Honourable Chair. Did Mr Cobus fire at you first? Was that your evidence, I'm not sure if this is the incident where they were fired upon first? MR NTONGA Yes he is the one who shot at us. MS PATEL Okay. Then with the Pretorius incident with Mr Senti, was there any damage to his property, to Mr Senti's house? MR NTONGA I can say it was a door that was hit by a bullet and himself, I cannot remember anything that was damaged in his house. MS PATEL Okay, well you were charged with malicious damage to property because the window was broken. Do you deny that the window was broken? MR NTONGA No I cannot deny that but I cannot remember because we were quite a number of people, I couldn't look and see everything that was happening. MS PATEL But you weren't involved in that, you were at the front door, are you saying that the rest of the people were in other parts of the house? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MS PATEL You wouldn't know why the window would have been broken, was there any discussion about that, do you know? MR NTONGA As I've already explained I am not sure, I do not have any knowledge about the window that broke and I cannot say it did not break but I cannot say yes it did. MS PATEL Okay, you say that you just wanted - you shot Mr Senti because you just wanted to scare him, was that right? MR NTONGA Yes I was just scaring him, I wanted him to open the door so that he can give us information as to how to get to the white man's house. MS PATEL That makes no sense to me, Sir, perhaps you can help me. How do you shoot somebody to scare him if you want him to help you? MR NTONGA I was not directing at him as I've already explained. MS PATEL Are you saying that you just wanted to shoot the door open? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MS PATEL Okay. Why was Mr Senti's wife taken with to Mr Pretorius' farmhouse, was it to get help for Mr Senti who you had shot or was it to go and get him to leave the farm? MR NTONGA Initially our aim was to go there and get the firearms and drive him out of the farm but unfortunately something that happened at Mr Senti's house but we decided to take his wife along because we wanted him to also get help because when we get to Mr Pretorius' house we would try and force him, Mr Pretorius that is, to take this person who was injured to the hospital so that we can also get a chance and search in his house and get whatever we're looking for. MS PATEL Okay, but shooting Mr Pretorius was a mistake? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MS PATEL Okay. You say that you were aiming at the dogs when Mr Pretorius was shot? MR NTONGA I was not aiming at the dogs, I was aiming at him directly, that is Mr Pretorius. MS PATEL Okay. You didn't intend to shoot him? MR NTONGA I was pointing a gun at him because I wanted him to surrender and come to us not that I wanted to shoot him. MS PATEL And Mr Pretorius was unarmed at the time? MR NTONGA I did not see anything. MS PATEL Sorry, you said you didn't see anything but you were close enough to see if he did have a firearm on him, not so? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct, it might happen that he had a small firearm that can fit in the waist without being detected or seen. MS PATEL Okay. Sorry Honourable Chairperson, if you would just grant me a moment? Oh yes, if I can just backtrack for a second, Mrs Senti, did she come willingly with you to Mr Pretorius? MR NTONGA What I noticed that she was so scared and she had a shock for what happened. We had to knock at next door her house because we wanted someone else to go with her so that she can feel safe and she can feel safe knowing that nothing was going to happen to her and we found a maid there and we took her with to Mr Pretorius' place. MS PATEL Okay, now this is the first time we've heard this evidence. You say that - what did you say to the person who came with Mrs Senti to Mr Pretorius? It's never been mentioned before. MR NTONGA We knocked at the house and they opened because they were awoken by this gunshot and we told them that we were comrades and we were not there to fight and we told them that some accident happened next door and we were not there for that, we just wanted to go to the main house and we asked this gentleman to accompany us with this lady because this lady had a shock already so we wanted to go to Mr Pretorius' place to ask for someone to assist him as he was injured, that is Mr Senti. ADV SANDI Sorry Ms Patel. That gentleman, Mr Ntonga, did he in the end accompany you, did he come along with you? MR NTONGA Yes he did accompany us because he could see that we were only ...(indistinct) MS PATEL Mr Ntonga, if there were neighbours there, I don't understand, when you knocked on Mr Senti's door and he didn't want to help you, why didn't you move to the neighbours and ask for help there rather? MR NTONGA We did not think about that but the very first house that we approached was Mr Senti's house. We did not think of knocking next door, we just thought about knocking at Mr Senti's house because it was very late in the evening for us to wake up everyone. MS PATEL Well I'm not sure where the evidence of somebody else accompanying you has come from at this late stage because it wasn't mentioned at the trial I don't think. I want to put it to you though that Mrs Senti was in fact compelled by you and your group to go to Mr Pretorius' farmhouse? MR NTONGA That is not true. MS PATEL Okay. I'm sorry, Sir, do you say that you entered Mr Pretorius' house? MR NTONGA We did not get the chance to get inside his house. MS PATEL Oh no, that's correct yes, I'm sorry you didn't mention anything about it, you just said that you shot him. Sorry Honourable Chairperson, I'm just checking something before I move on. Another thing that puzzles me is that nowhere is there evidence of a dog being on the premises at Mr Pretorius' farmhouse. It's not mentioned in the judgement, it's not mentioned in the summary of facts either and I'm not sure now whether your co-applicant, Jimmy, has mentioned the fact of a dog being present. Jimmy didn't mention a dog being present either? What is your comment, Sir? MR NTONGA I don't know Jimmy's problem but he has spent a very long time in prison, maybe he had forgotten about it and I'm sure that even Mr Pretorius knows that he's got some dogs. MS PATEL Were you involved in, besides shooting Mr Pretorius, were you involved in any further assault on him? MR NTONGA No I never touched him with my hand. MS PATEL Do you know whether any of the other members of your group had assaulted Mr Pretorius afterwards? MR NTONGA Yes there were people who went to him, I don't know whether they assaulted him or not but I saw some people going to him. MS PATEL And this was in fact after he had been shot not so? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MS PATEL Okay. Then Mrs Marulia, she was the old person, the old woman in the last incident. You were found guilty of housebreaking with intent to rob and robbery. Can you tell us how entry was gained to Mrs Marulia's house and what you did specifically? MR NTONGA I remember getting through the door and we stole the guns that we displayed on the walls, the big firearms. I went straight there to them and I saw a very big trunk the size of this table, it was full of ammunition and I transferred them into the bag and then with one firearm that had a two trigger and then I went into another direction. I don't know what happened to the other people who were with me there. MS PATEL Okay, tell me this trunk or this room where you say the firearms were and where the trunk was, can you recall how far that was from possibly the kitchen or the storeroom of that house? MR NTONGA I do not have a picture how the placed looked like but it was one of the rooms with firearms displayed on the wall and the big trunk but I cannot remember but it was not in the kitchen. MS PATEL Okay. Did you take any of the goods besides the gun and the firearm that was mentioned at court and that was read out I think to Jimmy earlier on, it's a radio, a gas lighter, sweets, cash, bottle of Cane, bedsheets, different types of foods, leather jacket. Did you take any of those things? MR NTONGA No, as I've already explained, I took the firearm and a bag with bullets, I took the bullets from the trunk and then I put them in the bag, I did not see anyone taking such items. MS PATEL And you didn't see anybody else taking such items either? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct, I did not see anyone taking such items from the people who were with me, we had to leave the house in a hurry, the others ran away with the car and I had to walk and I got caught on the way. MS PATEL Okay, so you got caught with Mr Hansel's rifle, not so? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MS PATEL Okay and the ammunition that you got caught with, was that for Mr Hansel's rifle or was it some other ammunition, of ammunition that you'd taken from Mrs Marulia's place? MR NTONGA The bullets that he had were the bullets that I got them from where I was coming from, not Mr Hansel's bullets, those were the bullets that I got from that house. MS PATEL Let's just - in your application, you know the form that you filled out that you sent to us, you state in there, page 36 Honourable Chairperson of the bundle, the top paragraph. When you talk about the incident at Mr Pretorius' place you state there that you searched the house and yet here you've denied that you searched Mr Pretorius' house? MR NTONGA I cannot remember that I put that information in my application. We didn't even get inside Mr Pretorius' house. MS PATEL Okay. And you also I think in connection with Mr Cobus, you state that an attempt was made to arson. Can you briefly tell us about that? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct, we got a gas cylinder there and we released the gas from the gas cylinder and we set alight and we thought that those gas cylinders were going to explode and we did not have time because it was about early hours of the morning so we left the house burning. MS PATEL Okay and your motivation if I understand you correctly, in getting involved in all these incidents was to get firearms and to get the farmers to leave the area, correct? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. MS PATEL Okay. Can you recall whether any of these farmers that were attacked, whose homes were invaded, whether any of them were told by either yourself or anyone else in your group that they had to leave or else. Were they warned? MR NTONGA I do not have knowledge about that because I was not an executive, I used to do what I was being told and it was once mentioned that they're going to be written letters telling them to leave the area, I am not sure whether the executive did that but we were looking for the weapons in the farms and driving them away and we did not know, I did not know whether those letters were written or not. MS PATEL Okay I'm sorry, I'm not referring to those letters, I'm referring to when you and your group of people went to the specific farms to get the weapons and to attack the farmers. When you came to Mr Hansel, when you came to Mr Pretorius and the rest of the people that you went to, was any of them told by any one in your group at that specific time that your intention, all you wanted was firearms and for them to leave and if they didn't leave then you would force them to leave? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct, the only person that we got a chance to give him that information was Mr Goud, we did not get the opportunity of talking to the other people face to face about that, he is the only person that we met with. MS PATEL Is Mr Goud Mr Hansel? Have I got that right is it Mr Hansel? That's the first farm where you got the rifle from? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct, he is the first one. MS PATEL Okay, then I want to put it to you that I've spoken to Mr Hansel's son who is present here today and he says that his father never ever when he spoke to his father after the attack on him, that there was no mention made of him being told of what your intentions were in terms of getting him off the farm? What is your comment? MR NTONGA I don't know anything about that, maybe he was just saying it for the sake of saying it but I remember very telling him that. We told him after he had given me the firearm. After testing the firearm we told him that we need that place he should just leave the place or else we were going to set the house alight. He is that person that I remember very well that we talked to him face to face about getting the farmers to leave the area. With the others we did not get the chance to tell them because they would fight, on our arrival they would start fighting us. MS PATEL I want to put it to you ...[intervention] ADV SANDI Sorry Ms Patel can you just get more of this if you're going to be asking him about something else? Now what did you say to Mr Goud, did you say to him we want you off the farm and what did he say when you said that to him? MR NTONGA He said he was going to do so. As we were leaving him behind tied up and we told him that Sir, we want this place, therefore we request you to go to the people who are like you in town and if you do not do that we are going to set the place alight and then we left the house. ADV SANDI Is that before you came back to attack him? MR NTONGA It is after we had taken the firearm and then we were leaving him with our word and we're telling him that we in need of that place, we wanted him to look for a place that has got people who look more like him next to the town or else we were going to set him alight and then we left him there. MS PATEL You know I don't want to be unfair to you, I know that you were very young at the time and that you were placed in possession of a very powerful weapon, namely that rifle. Did you have any training in terms of use of firearms and a rifle specifically? MR NTONGA No, that is not so, I never got any training. MS PATEL Okay, why were you the one who was always in possession of that rifle at the incidents, well except at the Marulia farm where Jimmy had it with him? MR NTONGA The reason for that, I was the one who had the knowledge, who was familiar with this firearm. There were other people who would operate it but I'm the one who was more familiar with the use of this because Mr Goud showed me how to use it but during the roadblocks I would leave it whenever I was changing shifts I would leave it behind for the others to use. MS PATEL Did you also know Mr Hansel before you went to the farm to attack him that night? MR NTONGA I did not know him, I just used to see him as the other white people from a distance, I never used to know him. MS PATEL Were you involved in the selection of any of the targets for which you applied for amnesty? MR NTONGA Selection by whom, by us or? MS PATEL By your group, were you involved in that process where it was decided who would be attacked or who would be told to leave whatever area? MR NTONGA Yes I was present from the beginning when that statement was announced, I was there since then I started attending the roadblocks all the time and the other things would be planned during the roadblocks as to where to go and get the firearms because there were not sufficient and the other people were using the other objects that were used to fight so we were planning during the roadblocks as to where to go and get the firearms, people would come up with ideas such as places. MS PATEL Okay and you also knew that there were specific instructions that nobody was to be killed yet most of the people you shot were shot in the upper part of their bodies? Surely that is not consistent with just wanting to scare somebody? MR NTONGA I am saying the reason for me to shoot these people sometimes that would happen by mistake. I did not aim at killing them, I am sure that if I aimed at killing them, I should have killed them. If you went there to kill the people like Mr Hansel we could have killed him and Mr Pretorius and the others because I would fire more - I could have fired more than one shot and the others assaulted him until he fell down unconscious and if I wanted to kill him I would just finish him up with the firearm. Even at Kolaga, if we wanted to stab her we had that chance, we would do it but we were not there to kill, we could have stabbed her if we wanted to do it because we had time for that. MS PATEL Tell me Sir, I want to put it to you that these deeds were not committed with a political motivation, that you and the rest of the members of your group inasmuch as there might have been a decision by the community in terms of how farmers must be dealt with in that area, that you were not obeying that decision, that you and the rest of your friends were out there with a different intention, that was not politically motivated, that was in fact criminal? MR NTONGA That is not so. MS PATEL Alright. Thank you Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Patel. Mr Ntonga, who filled in your amnesty application form? MR NTONGA You mean writing? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NTONGA My co-accused. CHAIRPERSON You didn't do it yourself? MR NTONGA No, I am not in a position to write in English. CHAIRPERSON Now when you fired these shots at those people that you referred to in your evidence, did you accept that it was possible that those people could have been killed? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct, if you shoot at a person that person can even die but that was not my intention. CHAIRPERSON Now how many other people were arrested with you at the time after you had left the last farm that you spoke about? MR NTONGA It was seven of us when we were arrested, we were seven. CHAIRPERSON What did the police get in your possession? MR NTONGA When the police found me I had nothing. I had abandoned the firearm in the forest where I was running, I abandoned it there and they caught me barehanded. CHAIRPERSON How did they get hold of the firearm, the police? MR NTONGA I do not know because I ran and I left at the place where I had left this firearm but it looks like they scratched for it and they found it because I saw the firearm in court. CHAIRPERSON And what did they find in the possession of the other six people? MR NTONGA We were two when we were arrested, we were walking in that forest, we were two when we were walking there and the others were in a Combi. Only two of us was arrested in the forest. Even this other one who was with me had a firearm from the old lady, the small firearm. He decided to hide it in that forest and they couldn't find it, only mine was found in the forest. CHAIRPERSON So did the police also not find anything in the possession of your companion, the person that was with you? MR NTONGA Yes he had nothing when he was arrested. CHAIRPERSON The five that were arrested in the Combi, were they the other people that were charged with you in the criminal case? MR NTONGA They were not arrested the same day, they were arrested some months after I had been arrested and they were not in the Combi they were arrested in their homes. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether when they were eventually arrested the police got anything in their possession? MR NTONGA I don't know what was found in their possession but I cannot remember anything, I don't know because even their clothes were taken, I don't know what is it they took from those clothes. CHAIRPERSON Okay thank you? ADV SANDI Thank you Chair. You've made mention of a Combi, whose Combi was this? MR NTONGA I don't know but it was from the community, I don't know the owner. ADV SANDI Just to get more, you know, precise clarity about your arrest. Is there someone else who was arrested in the same vicinity where you were arrested at the same town in the same vicinity? MR NTONGA Yes that is correct. ADV SANDI Who was that? MR NTONGA I cannot remember his names but we were two on that particular spot, I cannot remember his name. ADV SANDI Now that person whose name you cannot remember, was he found in possession of anything? MR NTONGA No, nothing was found in his possession, even in court nothing was made mention of any item that was found with him because we were arrested on different spots but in the same forest. ADV SANDI Ms patel has been asking you about the items which are not firearms and ammunition. Did you see any of these items at any stage? MR NTONGA No I saw nothing else except what I've mentioned, the firearms and the ammunition, nothing else. ADV SANDI Thank you, thank you Chair. ADV BOSMAN Mr Ntonga, these roadblocks, was there only one that was sort of where you worked in shifts or were there many roadblocks? MR NTONGA You would take two roadblocks sometimes because there were two roads that were coming from town. We would only close the roads that they were having access to the White area. ADV BOSMAN And who organised the roadblocks, who told you to go at a certain time and who organised the shifts? MR NTONGA As I've already explained, the announcement was made after the incident that took place at the hall and since that we would have two shifts at the roadblocks, the morning shift and the late shift. ADV BOSMAN Yes but my question is, who made these announcements, who were the leaders that organised you? MR NTONGA No one was responsible, we were solely responsible for anything but those were the matters that would arise during the shifts and we would have to find a solution to whatever the problem and we knew that the weapons were there on the farms so people would suggest places among us and we would go to that particular place and do as usual. ADV BOSMAN But how did you know to go to Mr Hansel's farm and to Mr Cobus' farm and to the Pretorius' farm and to Mrs Marulia's farm? How did you know to go? MR NTONGA Those were the matters that would arise during the roadblocks. The others were having the firearms and the others were having other objects that could be used therefore such decisions would come from people during the shifts. Though the announcement was made on that particular day that we could get firearms from the farmers but we were also told not to kill but only to take the firearms and tell them to leave and we were told that they were going to write letters to them to tell them to leave. We were still doing as it was discussed during that meeting. The leaders were not visiting the roadblocks frequently to tell us what to do so we continued to do the job until we were arrested. ADV BOSMAN Now on most of these farms there were old people living on their own. Do you agree? MR NTONGA Yes, at the time I did not know that, I did not know the owners of the farms and the ages of the people, I would go there and find it there but that was never mentioned that no age limit was mentioned but they were talking about White in general, no other adults or young people were mentioned. ADV BOSMAN Was this just incidental that they were old people living on their own in four of the incidents? Was it just incidental? It wasn't planned that way at all, to go to farms where there were people living on their own and people who were elderly? MR NTONGA There was no planning. We were working with Whites in general, Whites on the farms whether it's a woman or a man but we would just go there as all of them were farmers. ADV BOSMAN Were there any of these people who were attacked who you knew personally? MR NTONGA Most of those farmers that we were attacking I did not know them. ADV BOSMAN My question is were there any of them that you knew? MR NTONGA No, I did not know any of them. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Kincaid any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KINCAID Thank you Mr Chairperson. Your testimony, Mzuyanda is that you acted in a group, there was a group that carried out these attacks and that the decision to attack was taken at the roadblocks, do you confirm that? MR NTONGA Yes, that is correct. MR KINCAID So at the roadblocks were some discussion given to the manner in which the attacks were to be carried out? MR NTONGA Yes, that is correct, but most of the times you would talk about firearms because they were not sufficient, and even in the place where we were it was not safe for us to be there. The police would come in a disguise, would walk to the roadblock and we'd just hear a bullet. Therefore, most of the times we were discussing about the firearms, and after that we had to pursue what was said by our leaders there, the idea of driving the farmers away. MR KINCAID So the attacks on the farmers was a group effort, it was the actions of a group of youths? MR NTONGA Yes, that is correct. MR KINCAID Correct me if I'm wrong, Mzuyanda, but I don't understand you to be disputing your convictions. You were convicted in the Supreme Court of 14-odd counts involving robbery, malicious damage to property, attempted murder, housebreaking with the intent to rob, am I wrong? Do I misunderstand your testimony? Are you saying that those convictions were wrongly founded or is it your case that you were properly convicted by the Supreme Court? MR NTONGA No, the conviction, the judgment was not fair. MR KINCAID Why do you say that, Mzuyanda, in what aspect? MR NTONGA In the sense that at the time we were fighting and we were fighting for our rights and we were not wrong in what we were doing. There was no time to talk, it was time for action, time to use our power. MR KINCAID That's what this Committee is faced with now, is assessing what motives you had in mind when you committed these criminal acts, and I'm asking you, is it your case that you didn't commit these criminal, that the convictions in the Supreme Court were not proper convictions, or do you accept that you were convicted correctly, but what you put before this Committee now is a disclosure of the motive for committing those acts? MR NTONGA Yes, that is correct. MR KINCAID Do you confirm the contents of the affidavit you deposed to on the 21st of April and signed before a Commissioner of Oaths, do you confirm those contents? MR NTONGA Yes, I do confirm that. MR KINCAID Thank you, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KINCAID CHAIRPERSON Yes, I assume that concludes the testimony of this applicant? MR KINCAID It does, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Ntonga, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED