amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-11 PRETORIA 6 ERIC GOOSEN AM 4158 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53328&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050313_pre_990511pt.htm ON RESUMPTION MR ALBERTS Thank you Mr Chairman, the following applicant is Mr Goosen. ERIC GOOSEN (sworn states) MR MALAN Thank you, you may sit down. EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS Mr Goosen, your application for amnesty is contained in Bundle 2 before the Committee and the introductory part is from page 295 to page 336, is that correct? MR GOOSEN That is correct Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Do you confirm the correctness of the contents? MR GOOSEN I confirm that, yes. MR ALBERTS This particular incident, it goes from page 383 to page 390? MR GOOSEN That is correct Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Do you also confirm subject to the evidence that you will give shortly, in general terms, the correctness of those pages? MR GOOSEN I confirm it, Chairperson. MR ALBERTS And then lastly, the relevant pages to complete the picture, are from page 489 onwards, is that correct? MR GOOSEN That is correct Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Do you also confirm the correctness of the contents of those pages? MR GOOSEN I confirm it Chairperson. MR ALBERTS On page 383 the date January to April 1986 as being the relevant dates concerning this incident. Do you still stand by that? MR GOOSEN Chairperson no, I heard today that the precise date of this incident was February 1987. At the time of the compiling of my initial application, I could remember that it was at the start of a year and I also remembered that in 1986, at the beginning of the year, I was on an explosives course and I made the deduction that it must have been before my explosives course, but in fact it was the start of 1987 and not 1986 as indicated in my application. MR ALBERTS Mr Goosen, on the next page, 384 the account starts of relevant happenings. You also heard Mr Momberg's evidence and broadly speaking, do you agree and more in particular, do you agree with the account as set out in your own application? MR GOOSEN That is correct Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Is there anything that Mr Momberg said about the incident with which you pertinently do not agree? MR GOOSEN I agree wholeheartedly with Lieutenant Momberg's version. MR ALBERTS Right. And is that also the case concerning the victim of this incident? MR GOOSEN That is correct Chairperson. During consultation, a few days ago, in preparation in the cross-questioning of Hechter and Van Vuuren surrounding the kidnapping of Morudi, there in an answer it came through that the kidnapping took place three months after his house had been attacked and in that same evidence, he also mentioned his niece who had been killed in that attack. MR ALBERTS Is that the first knowledge that you had concerning the fact that contrary to what you said in your application, that there was in fact a victim and in fact somebody who had been killed? MR GOOSEN Yes, that is correct Chairperson. MR ALBERTS Now you have already expressed your sentiments during the previous application concerning the unfortunate consequences that this type of operation held. Do you stand by that too for the present purposes or not? MR GOOSEN Chairperson, in this specific situation and as in the previous one, can I just express myself by expressing my deep regret in the absence of the Morudi family. I would like to tell them in person and I can just ask them to try and forgive me for my part that I had in this incident and to make it easier for me to live my conscience. MR ALBERTS Thank you Mr Goosen. Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ALBERTS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS May I proceed Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Goosen, the information that you had with regard to Morudi and the people that would have been in the house that night, do you agree with Mr Momberg's evidence as far as that is concerned, the question that I asked him? MR GOOSEN That is correct, I agree. MR DU PLESSIS In other words your impression was that there would be nobody at home? MR GOOSEN That is in fact so, that is what we understood from Lieutenant Hechter, and feedback that he got from Mamasela who was involved in the gathering of information. MR DU PLESSIS Do I understand you correctly, your evidence is that at the time of the bomb attack, the bomb attack took place before the questioning of Morudi after which he later became an informer? MR GOOSEN I did not know that there would be a kidnapping and a questioning, but from information and documents available now, I know now that this incident took place and then three months elapsed whereafter Scheepers Morudi was recruited. MR DU PLESSIS So the bomb attack took place, I think we are reasonably sure about this now, three months elapsed more or less and then he was questioned and Captain Hechter and Paul van Vuuren gave evidence and have already received amnesty and during that questioning, he agreed that during interrogation, he agreed to become an informer? MR GOOSEN In the structures in which I served hereafter in Security, I was aware that Scheepers Morudi became an informer and he was a registered informer up until 1992, even of the Intelligence Unit of which I was part. I wasn't necessarily his handler, but the Intelligence Unit which operated in the Security Branch until 1992, he was a registered informer. MR DU PLESSIS You were not involved in the interrogation, it was Van Vuuren, Hechter and Bokaba, is that correct? MR GOOSEN Yes. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR NIEMAN I have no questions Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NIEMAN ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP MR ALBERTS No-re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ALBERTS WITNESS EXCUSED MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, now I find myself in a predicament, because I phoned Captain Hechter just when we started and I indicated to him that he should be here as soon as possible, but he lives in the eastern parts of Pretoria, we went out just now to phone him and he said he was on his way. I didn't think this evidence was going to be as quick as this. CHAIRPERSON Do you want a short adjournment? MR DU PLESSIS Please Mr Chairman, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS