amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-13 PRETORIA 8 JACQUES HECHTER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53335&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050313_pre_990513pt.htm ON RESUMPTION JACQUES HECHTER (sworn states) MR MALAN Thank you, you may sit down. EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. Captain Hechter, this is the last application of a series of applications in the so-called Cronje Cluster 2, and in confirmation as also in all the other applications, as far as the background evidence is concerned, do you stand by the general background evidence of Brigadier Cronje, who during the Cronje hearings was submitted by Brigadier Cronje in October 1996 and March 1997, is that correct? MR HECHTER That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And that applies also to this specific application? MR HECHTER That is also correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Captain Hechter, as in the previous applications this is also an application of which you don't have any independent recollection, is that correct? MR HECHTER Chairperson, only after I read Mr Roos' application, only then did I become aware of this case. Mr Viktor and I spoke about it afterwards and that is so, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Your application is based on the contents of the application of Mr Roos? MR HECHTER That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS You have no reason to dispute Mr Roos and the parts that Mr Viktor gave evidence about and you stand by that for the purposes of your application? MR HECHTER Fully Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Captain Hechter, your applications are in two sets, there was a first series of applications which were heard in October 1996 and in March 1997, is that correct? MR HECHTER That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And of those applications there were specific incidents about which you had a very clear memory? MR HECHTER That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS If I can mention a few of them briefly, the application about the Nietverdiendt 10 where 10 youths were killed, you have a good memory of that? MR HECHTER That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS The KwaNdebele 9 where nine youths were killed? MR HECHTER That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS The Ribeiro incident? MR HECHTER Correct. MR DU PLESSIS Where Dr Ribeiro and his wife were killed. The Ntuli incident where Mr Piet Ntuli was killed? MR HECHTER That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And the Mutasi incident where a Policeman who gave information to the ANC, he and his wife were killed? MR HECHTER That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And then also the case of the attack on Bishop Makatchwa? MR HECHTER That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS So there are various cases about which you have a very clear memory and you gave detailed evidence? MR HECHTER That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And then there was also the series of incidents where you based on Van Vuuren's evidence because you could not remember anything of that? MR HECHTER That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And after that, you read applications of various other applicants such as this series of applications, Goosen, Momberg and other persons as applicants and you became aware of cases in which you were involved, but of which you cannot remember anything? MR HECHTER That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And that led to a second series of amnesty applications for such cases? MR HECHTER That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And this application is specifically one of those cases? MR HECHTER That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Captain Hechter, and do you accept that you were in command of this operation? MR HECHTER That is positively so, yes. MR DU PLESSIS And although we know that Brigadier Cronje can remember nothing about this case, do you accept that it was under instruction of Brigadier Cronje? MR HECHTER That is so Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And in terms of the broader guidelines and instructions about which you have already given evidence? MR HECHTER That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And you have no doubt that Brigadier Cronje would have approved this whether before or after time, had he been informed of that? MR HECHTER Not at all, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS You cannot remember that you informed him? MR HECHTER Unfortunately I cannot, unfortunately I can't remember anything like that. MR DU PLESSIS You do however, accept Captain Roos' evidence with regard to the discussion that he had with Brigadier Cronje? MR HECHTER That is correct Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR VISSER I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER ADV STEENKAMP No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, the next applicant is then Brigadier Cronje who would have been able to testify before you, if it wasn't for his heart attack. May I approach this application in exactly the similar way than the previous ones, to refer you to page 101, which I have actually already done, of Bundle 1, where he applies for this incident on the basis of the fact that he was the Commanding Officer. Where he refers to Captain Hechter's application in this incident, Schedule 7, he accepts responsibility for this incident and also for the fact that he was the Commanding Officer and that he would have authorised this. I am placing that on record. That is part of his new application, the new set of applications which I handed to you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON What page of the new? MR DU PLESSIS 101, the paginated 101, typed page 19. CHAIRPERSON I haven't got a paginated page. MR DU PLESSIS I am sorry, it is typed page 19, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, may I then also for purposes of this application, I have hand-written, just made a list of incidents which Captain Hechter and Brigadier Cronje applies for as it differs a little bit from those my learned friend, Mr Visser, listed. May I just hand the hand-written list up to you. I beg your pardon that it is hand-written Mr Chairman, I didn't think it would have been necessary to do so. Thank you Mr Chairman. That is the end of my applications, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Unless there is something that you wish to say, we do not need to hear argument in this matter. The matter is now concluded. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. That I think concludes the whole of this hearing. ADV STEENKAMP Mr Chairman, indeed, that will be the roll for this session, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Right. HEARING ADJOURNS