amntrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION, AMNESTY HEARING 1999-05-03 JOHANNESBURG 1 HELD AT : JOHANNESBURG, JAN CAREL COETZEE AM4120/96 COSAS FOUR https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53336&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990503jh.htm CHAIRPERSON This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee at the Central Methodist Church, Johannesburg. The panel is chaired by myself, Denzil Potgieter. I am assisted by Adv de Jager and Adv Gcabashe. We will be hearing the Amnesty Applications of J C Coetzee, Amnesty Reference AM4210/96, A Grobbelaar Amnesty Reference AM4143/96, W.F. Schoon Amnesty Reference AM 4396/96 and E.T. Mfalapitsa Amnesty Reference AM3592/96A I am going to ask the parties to put themselves on record. Adv Visser, would you start off. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you Mr Visser. Mr Knight, or is it Adv Jansen. MR JANSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. Adv Jansen on instructions of Julian Knight Attorneys. We act for Mr Mfalapitsa in the initial hearing relating to the Cosas Members. Thank you. MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON 5011/97 MS VAN DER WALT Ek is L van der Walt. Ek verskyn saam met Adv H.J. Prinsloo. CHAIRPERSON Goed, dankie Adv van der Walt. For the victim. MR TSHABALALA: Thank you Mr Chairman. My name is Tshabalala, initials T.Z. I am for the victims Mr Musi and the other family, Madikela family, Madagwane and Thlapo. CHAIRPERSON Is it on behalf of Mr Musi and the next of kin of the other three deceased? MR TSHABALALA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Tshabalala. Ms Thabethe. MS THABETHE I am Ms Thabethe, the evidence leader for the TRC. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Jansen. Yes, I assume that if there were any difficulty in regard to the arrangement concerning the presence of Mr Mfalapitsa, the other parties would raise it. I assume that there is no problem with that. Under those circumstances we would proceed in the temporary absence of Mr Mfalapitsa, who will join us as soon as he is available. We have also noted the issue around the affidavit, Mr Jansen. ADV DE JAGER MR JANSEN: I believe that is taking place already. The witness protection people have gone to fetch him. MR TSHABALALA CHAIRPERSON Yes I think Mr Jansen is furnishing one to you now. And for the Evidence Leader as well. I assume the other parties are in possession of it. Very well. MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Chairperson, we are aware that the Amnesty Committees, before which we have appeared in the past, have appreciated all efforts that we could make in order to facilitate matters and to expedite matters. In the past, Mr Chairperson, and this is the first time I am appearing before you, in the past what we have done was for every witness in every application to have prepared a fairly extensive document which included background of the applicant, the political background, the conflict of the past and matters related thereto. We have discovered, Chairperson, that much of that has by passage of time, become common cause. We all know of the conflict of the past and we have all now heard, including you I am certain Mr Chairperson, of what the position of the security force members was during those times. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Visser. I have no objection to my receiving this as "Exhibit A". It will then be "Exhibit A", the document headed 'Algemene Agtergrond tot Amnestie Aansoeke'. MR VISSER Chairperson, we then go on at page 2, dealing with the background and experiences of policemen. Here we are in the fortunate position that in the Amnesty Decision of the original Amnesty Committee at page 2, most of what we have argued before under this heading has been summarised and we give you the summary where the Amnesty Committee said, at page 2 "almost all policemen giving evidence before us etc. etc" and we will all rely on that passage to page three. Chairperson, the typical experience of members of the police during the conflict of the past is set out from paragraph 8 onwards, it speaks for itself. Chairperson, it goes on up to page 10 where we deal very concisely with the conflict of the past, the four pillars of the struggle and we give certain extracts of quotations, which we believe you will find helpful and which we believe are relevant to this issue. One of the quotations is fairly long and it deals with how the communistic danger was viewed, as expressed by Mr Adriaan Vlok. Chairperson, at the bottom of page 15 we dealt with the role which was played by the neighbouring countries around South Africa and the influence that that had on the conflict of the past from the point of view of the security forces and we deal in turn with Botswana, Swaziland and Lesotho. In Swaziland also there is included Mozambique. Chairperson now if I may, just on the question of these topics, say that of course there is far more evidence available regarding activities in our neighbouring countries during the conflict of the past than what we have placed before you. It was not intended that what you should get now before you to be exhaustive. For example, Commissioner de Jager will confirm that in the last hearings which we had in April there were incidents concerned with infiltration and weapon smuggling from Botswana in which we handed in documentation of voluminous format. When we realised that we were again going to talk about Botswana before you today, Chairperson, we just felt that it is just too unreasonable to expect that those documents be reproduced every time and what we have done is, therefore, given you a very brief synopsis. We believe Chairperson that most of this is also common cause. We know that the neighbouring countries were used as springboards and we know that the South African Police had no jurisdiction to act against activists in those countries. That is the reason also why there are applicants before you applying for amnesty in regard to what they did across the borders in our neighbouring countries. Chairperson, we briefly deal at page 20 with the importance of information. The reason for that is that in many applications one finds that applicants will tell you that the acts, omission or offence which they committed had to do with the protection of identity, identities rather, of informers and it speaks for itself. Many applicants have told the Amnesty Committee that without information they were not able to effectively resist the revolutionary attack. We just made a few points for consideration under that last heading. Chairperson, thank you for having listened to me. We hope that this may facilitate matters. The applicants will simply refer to that document, Exhibit A, insofar as it is applicable to them. can change it, its not a problem. CHAIRPERSON JAN CAREL COETZEE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, I am going to address you as Mr Coetzee. Your rank, or the last rank that you had was Lieutenant Colonel. MR COETZEE: MR VISSER You apply for amnesty for an incident where four Cosas members were involved close to Krugersdorp and in which three of them were killed and one of them was injured. Is that correct? MR COETZEE: That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Your Amnesty Application appears in bundle one, on page 202, Chairperson. Have you gone through the Amnesty Application on page 202 and are you satisfied that it is correct. MR COETZEE Yes, I have gone through it. MR VISSER And except for some elaborations and aspects which we will point out, do you confirm the correctness of it? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER And in paragraph 7(a) there is a question which leads "if you were a member or office bearer or supporter of any political organisation, please mention the name" and on your form the letters not applicable appear, is that correct, or is that wrong? Were you a supporter of a political party? MR COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Which party? MR COETZEE National Party. MR VISSER And you were a supporter? MR COETZEE MR VISSER: If we go to Exhibit B you asked the Committee to incorporate the contents of Exhibit A into you evidence, is that correct? Are there any aspects in Exhibit A which are not applicable to you? MR COETZEE Chairperson, the whole document is applicable to me and also the evidence which is referred to in Exhibit A. That is correct. MR VISSER Page 2 at paragraph 2. Can you just start there and tell us what your role was and what the background was to this incident? May I just put it to you by introduction that, is it correct that in February 1992 you were the newly appointed commander of Vlakplaas? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Operational Commander, Chairperson. And one of the first tasks you performed was to move with the Askaris in the vicinity of Soweto and the surrounding areas where you attempted to identify terrorists. Is that correct? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER And once again, just by way of introduction, the manner in which you acted, can you tell the Committee briefly how the Askaris acted in order to perform this task. MR COETZEE Chairperson, the Askaris and the black members of the force traveled in different vehicles in these areas specifically taxi ranks, railway stations etc. and the white members were stationed at other places in our own vehicles and in radio contact with them. MR VISSER And if they had noted anyone and they wanted to execute an arrest, what would be the position? MR COETZEE If it was possible, Chairperson, they would call us and we would assist them. MR VISSER Yes, and was it true that because black members of the police were there they could execute arrests? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Very well. And in your Amnesty application Mr Coetzee, there is a reference to Joe Mamasela and Mfalapitsa. MR COETZEE That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Who were they at that stage in February 1992. MR COETZEE They formed part of that specific group at that stage in that area, Chairperson. MR VISSER Were they members of the police or the Askaris? MR COETZEE MR VISSER Just give us some background to Mr Mfalapitsa, but you mention this on page 3 paragraph 4. MR COETZEE Chairperson, Mfalapitsa was earlier an ANC terrorist who received military training in Eastern Europe and after he returned to South Africa he handed himself over to the security forces and became a member of my unit at Vlakplaas. MR VISSER And that would be as an Askari? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Continue please. MR COETZEE Mr Mfalapitsa was back in the country and this was not generally known to the public and to the people who knew him and this was advantageous from the viewpoint as to the role which he could play at the security branch, in other words he could act anonymously. MR VISSER People thought that he was still a supporter of the ANC? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER At the start of paragraph 6 the story begins with how this incident took place. Can you please mention in to the Committee. MR COETZEE MR VISSER May I just interrupt you here? Will you please just go a little slower to allow the interpretation to take place. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. I agree and comprehend. Would you just stick to the document and if you want to add anything there, please tell us so, but please stick to the document. You had spoken of W/O Nkosi whom they wanted to kill. Is that correct? MR COETZEE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Where was he stationed? MR COETZEE He was stationed at Security Branch, Krugersdorp. MR VISSER And what was the request from Musi according to your report, with the request to Mfalapitsa? MR COETZEE It was in the last sentence of paragraph 6. His request was that Mfalapitsa had to train them in weaponry and that he had to supply them with weapons. Do I continue? MR VISSER Yes please. MR COETZEE This was a time of large scale violence directed at police officers and Black Council members which included the burning down of houses and several murders of members and their family members. My attention was drawn to the fact that Mfalapitsa had applied for Amnesty and that he has also spoken of the plans of the group to kill one Matsibitso who was a teacher and member of the Council. I cannot recall it but I would accept that it was so. MR VISSER Chairperson it really starts at page 237 at the bottom and it runs over the page, where you will find that evidence. Please continue with paragraph 9 on page 4. MR COETZEE I then decided to discuss the problem with Brig Willem Schoon, the Commander of C Unit at Headquarters. I gave him the information and I explained the problem to him. MR VISSER Can you just pause here. For the members who do not know Brig Willem Schoon was the overall Commander of Vlakplaas, was that not so? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER And that is the reason why you went to him? MR COETZEE Yes, he was my immediate Commander. MR VISSER He was your Commander? MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Please continue. Paragraph 10. MR COETZEE If Mfalapitsa could not be used as a state witness they would be found guilty of illegal possession of weapons, ammunition and explosives. This offence was not so serious that it would be sure that they would be removed from the community for a long time. MR VISSER You mean that they would not be sent to jail for a long time? MR COETZEE That is correct. There was also the danger that if they were to be charged with a crime, they could mention or name Mfalapitsa as the person whom they received the weapons from and this would necessarily lead to the exposure of the fact that he was an Askari. I then suggested that there was just one option and this was to kill them. I suggested that weapons and/or explosive devices be given to them and that I find a suitable place at some mine where this instruction would take place and that an explosion be orchestrated which would point to the fact that they had blown themselves up. Brig Schoon undertook to receive instructions to this and that he would inform me at a later stage. Brig Schoon contacted me later and informed me that the matter would be considered properly to eliminate these youths and he gave me the authorisation to continue with my plan. I have said in my Amnesty Application, as I have understood this instruction it was correct because this pointed to the safeguarding of a police officer and his family. By that I did not mean to give notice that I acted legally, justified would be a better word to use. I was aware that this action would be a crime and is an irregular action and in co-operation with an explosives expert from the SAP at that stage, it was Lieut C Rorich, explosives were placed in the room where the training of these youths would take place. MR VISSER If I could just interrupt you there. On page 203 of your Amnesty Application you referred to the date as 15 February. How do you know that this is the date, 15 February 1982? MR COETZEE I cannot recall the date, Chairperson. This incident took place 17 years ago. I read the date in the newspaper. MR VISSER Would you please continue with paragraph 20 on page 7. MR COETZEE Joe Mamasela transported the youths and Mfalapitsa to this house where the explosives were. There were two or three F1 Russian hand grenades which I had found at Vlakplaas and these I gave to Mfalapitsa to hand to Cosas members. There could have been a pistol. MR VISSER You refer to the pistol. MR COETZEE Once again because in newspaper reports a pistol was mentioned. That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Please continue. MR COETZEE These Cosas members and Mfalapitsa were in the room busy with their training in weapons and at some stage Mfalapitsa came outside and Lieut Rorich executed the explosion while Col Grobbelaar and I and one of his staff members observed the premises and after the explosion we left the scene immediately. MR VISSER To prevent any identification, the member to which you refer was not identified here, who is it? MR COETZEE It was W/O van Tonder, Chairperson. MR VISSER Chairperson, we refer to paragraph 22, and where is Mr van Toner today? MR COETZEE He has died in a motor vehicle accident. MR VISSER Very well, continue. MR COETZEE And after the explosion we immediately left the scene to prevent any identification. It seemed later that the three youths, B Madikela, N Matabane and S Mohlapo were killed in this explosion and that Sandile Musi was injured. MR VISSER Mr Coetzee, where did you get these names from? MR COETZEE Once again from a report, but the name of Musi I can remember. The act, this was to the instructions of members of security branch at headquarters and the following day I reported to Brig Schoon that the incident had been concluded and that three of the Cosas members had been killed and one had escaped, but it has to be that one had survived, Chairperson. Post mortem inquests were carried out, normal inquests were carried out by the other branches of the force and as it appears in 1P47 later, I request that my amnesty be granted to me for my role in this tragic event on the grounds of the considerations as it is put here and in the general background document. I want to emphasise that my action took place during the struggle of the past, that it was aimed at the supporters of the liberation struggle in the safeguarding and maintenance of the previous government and that I bona fide believed that my action was part of my task as a police officer and in the execution of my tasks as a police officer and request that amnesty be granted to me for my actions in this incident. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mr Coetzee, Mr Rorich who is my client, his Amnesty Application is filed under Annexure A and these applications were not bound in a bundle. I want to know if you have seen this application. MR COETZEE No I have not, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT MR COETZEE That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Why did you approach him? MR COETZEE The first reason was because I trusted him. The second reason was because I did not have the means to cause an explosion and I was aware of the fact that he could. MS VAN DER WALT Is it correct that he is an explosives expert? MR COETZEE That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And is it correct, because in his application in Annexure A9 he was not tasked with the investigation to these youths, the only purpose for which you approached him was to execute this explosion? MR COETZEE Correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You also mention in paragraph 23 and it was put to you where you got these names from and you said it was from a newspaper report, I would like to put it to you that Mr Rorich has only taken note of the names now in your application. No further questions, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Ms van der Walt. Adv Jansen. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Coetzee just a few aspects which I want you to confirm as to the practice of Vlakplaas. Is it so that the members of Vlakplaas, when they undertook this identification of insurgents of the ANC, did they work in groups? MR COETZEE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JANSEN And these groups were to some extent territorial in the sense that some of them worked in the Eastern Transvaal, some of them in the Western Transvaal, depending on where they had knowledge of the area. MR COETZEE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JANSEN And it was logical that a person like Mr Mfalapitsa who knew Botswana, would be deployed to a group who worked in Western Transvaal and on the West Rand? MR COETZEE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JANSEN I would assume that, except for the work of this person so as to identify a person who would be an insurgent from Botswana to South Africa, this was also part, to identify people who wanted to go out for training abroad who were supporters of the ANC or were otherwise actively involved in ANC activities. MR COETZEE That is correct, Chairperson. MR JANSEN MR COETZEE MR JANSEN I would like to take it up with you. Can you recall where this discussion took place? MR COETZEE No I cannot. MR JANSEN No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshabalala? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TSHABALALA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Coetzee, when Mfalapitsa reported to you the Cosas wanted to go ahead with their plan, did you have any alternative plan? MR COETZEE My alternative plan was to eliminate them, Chairperson. MR TSHABALALA You mentioned that you took into account the family and the life of W/O Nkosi in taking out the instructions that the deceased should be eliminated. Did you ever think about the deceased and their families at the time? MR COETZEE: I did and this matter weighed very heavily upon me and today, with great humility, I would like to express my sincere sympathy to the next of kin of the victims because this is not something that I would have wanted. MR TSHABALALA I take it that the security laws at the time were tough and efficient for the State. It provided wide powers for the security police at the time to keep people in custody. Was it not possible for yourself to use these powers provided by the law? MR COETZEE MR TSHABALALA Well, I would like you to elaborate. MR COETZEE MR TSHABALALA Did you ever think that he would be exposed at any time? MR COETZEE MR TSHABALALA At the time did you think that eliminating the deceased, was it proportional to your duties at the time? MR COETZEE At that stage as a result of the terrible conditions under which this country was, I felt that it was justifiable. MR TSHABALALA Will you still think the same today? MR COETZEE MR TSHABALALA Did you ever find out whether you were dealing with highly politically matured persons or with youths who were caught in the political situation at the time? MR COETZEE Chairperson, at that stage the youth, especially from 16 June 1976 when the RSA started burning, the youth especially was used effectively by the ANC SACP Alliance by means of various organisations namely the U D F, Cosas, the Civics, the Defence Units and so forth. They were used to promote the objectives of the ANC, to topple the government of the day by means of violence and to create chaos in the country, with the effect that the security forces would then not be able to execute their duties and that would render the country ungovernable. I could carry on. MR TSHABALALA This is probably what made you to want to convince Mfalapitsa to convince again the deceased not to go ahead with their plan. MR COETZEE That is correct. MR TSHABALALA Yet you knew that these people are being used by the liberation movement. MR COETZEE MR TSHABALALA What was the response of your superiors after you carried out your plan? MR COETZEE Chairperson, do you mean superiors such as Brig Schoon or somebody else? MR TSHABLALA The top of the security forces or whoever you are reporting to. MR COETZEE MR TSHABALALA What remuneration did you get for executing the plans. MR COETZEE Absolutely nothing. Zero. MR TSHABALALA MR COETZEE Chairperson, for several years I was stationed at Krugersdorp in the security branch before 1982 and thereafter once again and I was up to date with the circumstances of the Musi family. I was aware of the fact that two brothers namely Benjamin and Wellington had left the country and underwent military training abroad. At Krugersdorp there were files of these persons for illegal defection and terrorist training, there were files about them which I studied and, in other words, I was completely aware of their circumstances. It was not strange to me, and I knew that there were other brothers at that house because now and then we would visit the premises in order to determine whether or not these persons had returned home. MR TSHABALALA I put it to you that the youth and including Zandisile Musi, were not planning to kill W/O Nkosi. MR COETZEE MR TSHABALALA Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Tshabalala. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TSHABALALA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Tshabalala. Ms Thabethe. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair, just one aspect. MR COETZEE Let me put it as follows: It does not matter which decision I would have taken in this regard, the decision which was conveyed to me from Head office by Brig Schoon, was the decision that I would have stuck by. MS THABETHE MR COETZEE MS THABETHE Okay, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabethe Mr Coetzee, is it correct to say that you are the person who proposed the plan. You were the source of the idea to kill these persons. MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON What information did you have surrounding the persons against whom action had to be taken? MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON So in your work situation you have never dealt with any one of the deceased or the survivor? MR COETZEE I had absolutely nothing to do with the three deceased. As I have mentioned, there were times that I went to the house of this Musi and I recall that I saw him there and understood that he was one of the children of that home. CHAIRPERSON But you had no reason to pay any attention to him within the context of your duties as a security police officer? MR COETZEE No, not at that stage. CHAIRPERSON What did Mfalapitsa tell you with regard to these four persons? MR COETZEE He said that these four persons, or at least firstly Musi, approached him alone. CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON And what else did he say? He mentioned that they were youths. MR COETZEE Yes he said they were youths and that they had certain objectives as a group, certain actions that they were going to execute. However, that they were not sufficiently trained to execute this alone and that they did not have suitable weaponry to do so. They were aware of the fact that Mfalapitsa was a trained ANC terrorist and they wanted him to help them with their plans. CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON Yes, so in other words there was always the possibility of petrol bombs but what they had in mind and what they held by was for Mfalapitsa to train them and to provide weaponry for them to execute this plan. MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON According to the information which you received, did these persons have any political profile? MR COETZEE Not that I knew of. CHAIRPERSON Would it be correct to say that you were motivated basically by your concerns regarding the safety of Nkosi? MR COETZEE Yes, Chairperson. I might just mention to you that this specific Nkosi was a man with whom I had worked for several years. He was a highly respected figure in the community. He was the best black security member in Krugersdorp. I knew him very well personally as well as his family and that year had been the first occasion upon which black members had been allocated a housing subsidy. He built a beautiful brick house for himself in Kagiso and I could really not see why I should sit still and watch this man and his family be murdered and see his home torched and so forth. It weighed very heavily upon me. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but do I understand you correctly that this was the basic consideration which you held for your actions, the protection of Nkosi and his family? MR COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was there no other way in which you could protect Nkosi and his family except for the killing of these four youths. MR COETZEE No Chairperson. I know it sounds very strange to say that one murder is committed in order to prevent another. I understand that many people struggle to accept this, but unfortunately that was the genuine state of play. CHAIRPERSON Did you consider anything else? Did you try to think of other plans or ways in which you could protect Nkosi and his family, placing guards or removing them from that residential area? MR COETZEE I warned Nkosi, I told him that I had information that these guys wanted to get him. I told him to be careful. CHAIRPERSON But did you still deem it necessary to kill the deceased? MR COETZEE Yes, that was my reasoning. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Has the panel got any other questions? ADV DE JAGER You approached Rorich to offer assistance. What rank did you have and what rank did he have? MR COETZEE At that stage I was a Captain and I am not certain whether or not he was a Warrant Officer or a lieutenant. ADV DE JAGER But you occupied a higher rank than he did? MR COETZEE ADV DE JAGER And if you requested or gave him orders, was he to obey you? MR COETZEE Yes, under normal circumstances, but this was not a legal order. ADV DE JAGER Yes I understand that but under normal circumstances with normal commands or orders, He would have to obey you? MR COETZEE ADV GCABASHE MR COETZEE It would be appropriate for his Commander to be informed. ADV GCABASHE Did you do that? MR COETZEE I did not. I did not contact his Commander or any other person with regard to this matter. ADV GCABASHE Therefore did he come and assist you where his own command structure did not know about the task on hand? MR COETZEE Chairperson, because the order came from Brig. Schoon who was the overall Commander of the security office. There is an old saying which says that the less you know about something, the better for you. So in other words there were no wide discussions about these matters with every Tom, Dick and Harry. ADV GCABASHE Did you tell him that Brig Schoon had authorised this particular operation? MR COETZEE I did. ADV GCABASHE And you explained to him that this involved the killing of certain people? MR COETZEE ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Can I come to Brig Schoon. Do you know who he got his orders from? MR COETZEE ADV GCABASHE And was it not your business to find out either? MR COETZEE Not at all. We also had a restriction of work. ADV GCABASHE Did he question you on your recommendation that these four youths were dangerous, just to summarise the whole matter. MR COETZEE ADV GCABASHE MR COETZEE ADV GCABASHE MR COETZEE No. ADV GCABASHE Can you recall how long it was before Mfalapitsa came out of the mine area, when he came back, time? MR COETZEE ADV GCABASHE As I understand the general evidence, as soon as he came out the idea was that the explosives would then be detonated? MR COETZEE That is correct and Rorich was the person who could see Mfalapitsa, not me. ADV GCABASHE Then one last aspect. You say in paragraph 23 of I think this is Exhibit B, your statement, that it later turned out that these particular youths, three had died and one had been injured. MR COETZEE That is correct. ADV GCABASHE How much later was that? MR COETZEE The following day. ADV GCABASHE MR COETZEE Not at all. ADV GCABASHE Were those policemen instructed by you at all to go to this particular scene? Just explain those circumstances as far as you know of those. MR COETZEE Chairperson, regarding that matter, the local police handled it as they would have handled any regular explosion and any other unnatural death and so forth. With regard to that matter, my group and I had nothing to do with it. The cover was that these people had blown themselves up in other words. I hope you understand. CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON You did not notify them? MR COETZEE No. ADV DE JAGER And a previous question you were asked, how long after they arrived there did Mamasela come out of the house. Did you hear the explosion? MR COETZEE Yes. ADV DE JAGER How long after their arrival did the explosion take place? MR COETZEE ADV DE JAGER MR COETZEE ADV GCABASHE One final aspect. Mfalapitsa had known the Musi brothers previously. MR COETZEE ADV GCABASHE He knew the family? MR COETZEE He went to school with them as far as I understood. ADV GCABASHE particular incident? I am simply asking whether you considered that at all. MR COETZEE this to me so I could not have known about something like that. CHAIRPERSON Adv Visser, re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER One aspect, Chairperson. Your leave, I think it has been dealt with but just one aspect. You have told the Committee that youths were applied by the ANC SACP Alliance in order to promote their interests in the struggle. MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE I could not regard it as such. Nkosi could have been killed in many other ways. He could have been stabbed. MR VISSER And you referred to the use of petrol bombs. MR COETZEE MR VISSER Was that a generally common thing which appeared or was it not as regular? MR COETZEE It was a very common occurrence, almost on a daily basis. MR VISSER And with regard to the political aspect Mr Coetzee, which political sentiments do you think these persons held? Of which groups or parties were they members or supporters? MR COETZEE I have no doubt that the entire Musi family were either supporters of or members of the ANC and I can motivate why I make that statement. With Cosas, an organisation which was affiliated with a political organisation or party, you will know that Cosas was an affiliate of the UDF and that the UDF was the internal wing of the ANC and one could continue as such. MR VISSER Is that the reason why you say that your action was committed against supporters of the liberation movement? MR COETZEE MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes Adv Gcabashe. ADV GCABASHE There is just one aspect I forgot, one question I forgot to ask. The R1 000 that was paid to Mfalapitsa, what was the purpose of paying that? MR VISSER Chairperson, it was the policy of the government and/or the security Head office to reward black, and I emphasise the word black, members for actions that would be with the identification or arrests of insurgents and so forth. White members never received any reward in this relation according to my recollection, the reason for that being that blood is thicker than water and the rewards were offered in order to secure the loyalty of these persons towards us. ADV GCABASHE Would you then say, just your own opinion, that the fact that he knew that he would get this money, I mean it was general practice in the security forces, the fact that he knew he would get this money would not have motivated him to put particular things in a particular way. MR COETZEE ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. MR VISSER I know that you will probably want to take an adjournment but the last question has now prompted re-examination on that issue. CHAIRPERSON I suspected that Mr Visser but before you do that I also have, just in that regard, a question or two and you might want to take them all together. Would the black members who were working for you all have been aware that they were established members of this unit? Would they all have been aware of this policy of rewards for actions? MR COETZEE I believe so. CHAIRPERSON So to be specific, Mamasela, was he at that stage an established member of the units? MR COETZEE Chairperson, I speak under correction but I would believe that on 27 February Mamasela was sworn in as a full member of the security police and that he was affiliated to Vlakplaas on a full time basis thereafter. It was a few days before the incident. CHAIRPERSON You are speaking of being formally sworn in, but did he work at Vlakplaas? MR COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON For a time before this incident? MR COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Would he have been aware of this police or rewarding black members? MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON But would it be reasonable to say that the average black member who was involved with Vlakplaas knew that there was money involved in actions? MR COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You say that Mamasela was with Mfalapitsa on the evening or during the day of the incident? MR COETZEE Yes. He took him there and left the scene afterwards. CHAIRPERSON Yes. So he transported Mfalapitsa and the Cosas members from one place to the place where the incident took place? MR COETZEE That is correct? CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Coetzee you may be confused. He referred to black members and you do not distinguish between policemen and Askari members. Is there a distinction with regard to these rewards that you have mentioned or was there no distinction? MR COETZEE There is indeed a distinction. The opinion that black members also worked for a salary like we did and for that reason they did not receive those rewards and that only turned or rehabilitated Askaris would receive rewards. MR VISSER I think for that reason previous evidence may have been confusing. So policemen were not rewarded. MR COETZEE MR VISSER And that would be for exceptional bravery or the uncommon adherence to duties. You were aware of such a situation? MR COETZEE Yes I heard of that. MR VISSER But this is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about actions during the struggle of the past and you would concur then as I understand you, that policemen were not rewarded. MR COETZEE MR VISSER MR COETZEE MR VISSER And mostly they received money for services rendered. In other words upon achievement. MR COETZEE That is correct. MR VISSER Now that achievement, was that the commission of illegal acts for which they were rewarded with money or was it about arrests, about legal actions? MR COETZEE I would say that it was mostly about legal actions. MR VISSER And let it not be said that we have said something which once again creates confusion. MR COETZEE ADV GCABASHE MR COETZEE For legal actions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Adv Jansen have you got anything ...(indistinct) MR JANSEN Yes Mr Chairman I do. MR COETZEE MR JANSEN And the Askaris, that being ANC members who had joined the SAP or had started working for the S A P, were always registered as Head office informers and that they were paid in that way. MR COETZEE MR JANSEN In 1981 for example Joe Mamasela was a registered informer who worked for you in the West Rand. MR COETZEE MR JANSEN However, he lived at Vlakplaas for security reasons. MR COETZEE MR JANSEN And when you took over in 1982, I think it was in the beginning of January. MR COETZEE MR JANSEN Was that the logical consequence of your connection with Mamasela, that he would go over to Vlakplaas on a permanent basis. MR COETZEE Yes. MR JANSEN MR COETZEE Let me explain it as follows. In other words such an Askari would have to prove himself first. He would have to prove himself to be reliable and trustworthy. MR JANSEN MR COETZEE MR JANSEN MR COETZEE Chairperson my knowledge about that subject with regard to the previous practice of paying these individuals a monthly amount created problems because the police budget came from secret funds and funds were limited and so forth and in order to overcome that financial problem it was decided to make them policemen and pay them a salary and keep the reward, because those rewards would have to be requested every month along with motivations for why these rewards were required and this was creating problems and that was the reason why, after a while when it was determined that they were reliable and trustworthy, the decision was taken to make them police members. MR JANSEN But would you confirm that upon the arrival of such a person at Vlakplaas, such a person would be registered as a Head office informer. MR COETZEE MR JANSEN And such a person would then be paid on a discreet basis with regards to information received and the practice at that stage of monthly payments and so forth. MR COETZEE MR JANSEN But it was not an uncommon practice for a person to pay his informer a monthly amount? MR COETZEE If it was justifiable, it would be done in such a way. MR JANSEN There would be certain typical practices of payment according to which a person would be paid on a monthly basis, but there would also be practices according to which informers would be paid per occasion for their supply of information. MR COETZEE MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON So you cannot confirm that R1 000 was paid? MR JANSEN No, I cannot confirm that. MR COETZEE MR VISSER Chairperson, may I just refer you to page 225 and perhaps my learned friend could take this up with his client, you will see that there is a discrepancy of R100.00 as opposed to R1 000.00. One of the two must be wrong, so it may be R100.00. MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, is there anything else. MR VISSER Except that we might consider taking a tea adjournment now. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER He is going to have to stay on until my learned friend has clarified his position because Mr Coetzee is from Durban and when he leaves it will be difficult to get him back. I suggest he rather stays and not be excused. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that makes sense. Do you follow Mr Coetzee? MR COETZEE Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS