amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-03 JOHANNESBURG 1 W.F. SCHOON AM4396/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53337&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990503jh.htm MR VISSER We go to the next witness but before we do so, may I refer you to a bundle which we compiled, which is before you. It starts with the cover page of the Shell Bomb. Might I suggest that this be called Bundle 5. We will not immediately refer to it, the only reason why I mention it now is by virtue of certain questions that have been asked regarding Vlakplaas. Apart from that, and placing that on record Chairperson, I then call Brig Schoon. We have in his case also drawn a statement which will be C1 and we beg leave to hand that up to you. Brig Schoon will give his evidence in Afrikaans Chairperson. W F SCHOON (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON They are not in possession of Exhibit C1, Mr Visser. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Schoon, you are the applicant in this matter where you ask for amnesty in the incident of the death of three Cosas members and the injury to one other. Is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Your written application appears in Bundle 1 at page 10 and following. And this particular incident is found on page 72 of Bundle 1, is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you confirm the contents of your written application as true and correct? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you would ask that this be incorporated into your evidence. MR SCHOON That is correct. MR VISSER And before you, you also have Exhibit C1 and this is a statement which was drawn up for you which you would use as a basis for your evidence, is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER On page 1 you refer to relevant testimony, you refer to Exhibit A and the evidence mentioned in Exhibit A, you want to incorporate that into your evidence, is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct. MR VISSER And then in C you refer to evidence which was rendered by yourself. ADV DE JAGER Just for the record, in paragraph 8 the exhibit was not numbered. I want to draw your attention to that. MR VISSER Thank you Commissioner de Jager. That would be Exhibit a, small a and small b. We did not know at that stage what the order of the exhibits would be. From C onwards you refer to your own evidence. The first was on 19 November 1996 after a Subpoena which you received in terms of Section 29 of the TRC Act when you gave evidence before the Human Rights Commission. Is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct. MR VISSER And at that instance you made a written submission to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, is that correct? MR SCHOON Yes. MR VISSER And this, Chairperson, one finds in bundle 5, the new bundle 5, from page 36 and following. At this stage we are not going to refer to that further, this will be relevant later when we get to the Mnege Application. And in E you mentioned that there also appeared in the armed forces hearing before the Human Rights Committee in October 1997 and as well in the COSATU House and KHOTSO House and the Amnesty Application of the attempted murder of Mr Marius Schoon in Botswana. You have also given evidence there, is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Our current application deals with the murder of 3 Cosas members, their names are mentioned in paragraph 1 on page 2. Where did you get these names from? MR SCHOON From the pieces of the previous witness, Col Coetzee. MR VISSER And with regard to the date, is it the same? MR SCHOON MR VISSER Could you please tell us Brigadier, excuse me, Mr Schoon, you retired with the rank of Brigadier? MR SCHOON MR VISSER And in 1982 when this incident took place, what was your position then? MR SCHOON I was a colonel and in command of Group C at security headquarters in Pretoria. MR VISSER Group C, what did this include? MR SCHOON This dealt with the combating of terrorism, handling of arrested terrorists, the Askaris. MR VISSER And were you also in command in that capacity of Vlakplaas? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Very well. Can we then just arrive at the current incident. If you have regard for page 3 and paragraph 3, would you please inform the Committee from there onwards? This is in Exhibit C1. MR SCHOON Paragraph 2 on page three, 1982, Col J.C. Coetzee, then Captain, was the Commander of Vlakplaas at this stage. Early in 1982 he was busy with investigation work and the finding of terrorists in the Soweto region. He received information from a new Askari who handed himself over to the police after he received training abroad. MR VISSER Please just go a touch slower. MR SCHOON My attention was drawn to the fact that Mfalapitsa had also applied for amnesty and that he had spoken of this intention of this group to kill a black Council member, a teacher Matsidisa. This is in Bundle 1, page 231. Because the incident came from a new Askari member who had to be protected at all costs, Col Coetzee decided to discuss the matter with me at my office. MR VISSER Very well Mr Schoon. The incident there should be information. MR SCHOON MR VISSER Meaning that they could not be sent to jail for a long period of time. MR SCHOON No, except for that if they were to be charged with some offence they would name Mfalapitsa as the person whom they received the weapons from and this would lead to the exposure of the fact that he was an Askari. Col Jan Coetzee then proposed that there was just one option and this was to kill them. He suggested that weapons and/or explosive devices be given to them and that an explosion be established which would point to the fact that they had blown themselves up with weapons which they had in their possession. If Nkosi or Mfalapitsa or any member of their family had died or been injured, it would, in my opinion, have led to the fact that it would have been used as propaganda to further the revolutionary struggle. This could lead that there would be separation between the members of the security branch and the black community in that community. The situation would then lead to further suspense and conflict which would further the climate of unrest and revolution. It was therefore necessary to avoid this situation. I conveyed the decision of Brig Jan du Preez to Col Jan Coetzee. The planning and execution of the action was not discussed by myself or Brig Jan du Preez and it was left to the operatives on the ground. I was however aware of the fact that the plan would be the following. Mfalapitsa would supply weapons to the Cosas members which came from Vlakplaas. He would then pretend to train the four Cosas members. A place was chosen close to a mine heap close to Krugersdorp where there was a pump house which was chosen for this purpose. As soon as the four Cosas members arrived with Mfalapitsa at the pump house, Mfalapitsa would find a reason to excuse himself and as soon as he exited the pump house, explosives which were planted there beforehand, would be detonated and thereby the four Cosas members would be killed. MR VISSER You have also heard his evidence this morning. MR SCHOON That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And do you agree with that? MR SCHOON Yes I do. MR VISSER And three persons were killed and one was injured, we know their names, but severe damage was caused to the small building, presumably the pump house, and this happened at an abandoned mine. I am told its between Krugersdorp and Randfontein. MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did Jan Coetzee report to you? MR SCHOON Yes he reported to me that three of the members had died. MR VISSER And you say one had escaped, but the Chairperson used the words had survived. MR SCHOON Yes, he had survived. MR VISSER And you refer to the fact that there was and Inquest held. Did you have anything to do with the Inquest? MR SCHOON Nothing at all, Chairperson. I request that Amnesty be granted to me for my participation in this incident on the ground of the consideration herein, with and in the general background document as put before you. I want to emphasise that my action took place before the struggle of the past, that it was aimed at the supporters of a liberation movement and in the maintenance and protection of the previous political dispensation and that I had bona fide believed that my action was part of my duties as a policeman and that I was authorized in the execution of my duties and a request that amnesty be granted to me for my actions in this instance. MR VISSER Mr Schoon, you say that the instruction came from Brig. Jan du Preez. MR SCHOON That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you agree with the instruction? MR SCHOON Yes. MR VISSER For the reasons as you have put forward. MR SCHOON MR VISSER Was it suggested to you, if it was suggested to you, that the whole thing was done to protect Nkosi? MR SCHOON No, Nkosi was a small particle in what had to be protected. Indeed it was the South African Government that had to be protected. MR VISSER For the reasons you have named. MR SCHOON For the reasons which I have named. MR VISSER It is also so that police officers and black civic members or council members were targets of the ANC SACP Alliance and other liberation movements. MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER The issue with regard to reward was applicable for work that was done. It is sometimes referred to as silence money, but according to your knowledge, in which instances were such rewards paid out Mr Schoon? MR SCHOON There were several categories. Firstly we had the normal informant, he was rewarded for information that was conveyed to the security branch and then a written request was handed in for his remuneration which had to be recommended by his Commander and had to be approved at Head office and a month or so afterward he would receive his reward. MR VISSER It was the same system that police forces all over the world used? MR SCHOON MR VISSER And Mr Coetzee who gave evidence before you said that his impression was that this was from the secret fund. MR SCHOON Yes I think so. MR VISSER And who was in charge of this secret fund at Head office in 1982? MR SCHOON Gen. Coetzee was the appointed official. MR VISSER The accounting official? MR SCHOON No, the accounting official. And the person who administered the funds was Col Piet Goosen at that stage. MR VISSER And the normal budget of the police, who administered that? MR SCHOON This was done by the Commissioner. MR VISSER You have heard from questions which my learned friend Mr Jansen had put to Mr Coetzee that from 1982 a standpoint was taken that Askaris become police officers instead of remaining Askaris. Is this, according to your recollection, correct? MR SCHOON That is correct Chairperson. And for this reason the Askaris became more and the secret fund at that stage, which was not very large, this made a whole in the secret. MR VISSER MR SCHOON That is correct. MR VISSER With regard to normal police officers, were they rewarded for duties performed? MR SCHOON Chairperson, to the best of my recollection no, not in the same manner as the Askaris. MR VISSER But there are some exceptions which you are aware of and this is the matter of and this is the matter of Griffiths Mxenge. MR SCHOON Yes. MR VISSER We will eventually get there, but you say that according to you police officers were not rewarded for duties performed but Askaris indeed receive incentive bonuses. Thank you Chairperson that is the evidence-in- chief. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Ms van der Walt. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Thank you Chairperson. Mr Schoon is it correct if Mr Rorich would testify that you were in command of all the security branches from your position at Head office? MR SCHOON No it is not actually so. I was in charge of a certain desk and the security branches which had to report back, would report back to me and then I would channel it further. MS VAN DER WALT At that stage was Mr Rorich a Warrant Officer and in his application for Amnesty he mentions that he received instructions from Col Coetzee and he received instructions for Brig du Preez and he accepted that the instruction came from you? MR SCHOON It is possible, Chairperson, because I just told Col Coetzee that he must continue and he had to do the necessary to conclude the operation, therefore I would accept that he would say that. MS VAN DER WALT Was it also true that with such instructions that were given it was on a need to know basis. Other people were not informed about it. MR SCHOON No it was on a need to know basis. MS VAN DER WALT So just the persons who would be involved would know thereof. MR SCHOON Yes. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Walt. Mr Jansen. EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN Brigadier, just a few aspects with which you can be of assistance. Firstly with regard to the structure of the security police, is it correct that except for Head office which was stationed at Pretoria, it was divided into divisions which were in the regions and the regions were divided into branches? MR SCHOON Yes. Some regions had branches and there were divisions where they only had the one branch for example Witwatersrand, like for example the Eastern Transvaal would have a branch Ermelo. MR JANSEN MR SCHOON That is correct. MR JANSEN You were in command of C Section. MR SCHOON This was at the security branch, not with the Commissioner. MR JANSEN MR SCHOON MR JANSEN So somebody like Johan du Preez, if he would for example have the same rank as somebody who was the head of a division, he would be functionally his senior. MR SCHOON Yes, that is correct. MR JANSEN With regard to Cosas, for record purposes we would accept that it is general knowledge that Cosas was the Congress of South African Students. MR SCHOON MR JANSEN MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR JANSEN As we have student organisations like Parcel who was affiliated to the PAC and Azasco who were affiliated to Azapo so one could accept that a person who is a member of Cosas would be in all reality, or one could say with all certainty that he was a supporter of the ANC. MR SCHOON Yes, that is correct. MR JANSEN MR SCHOON No, I have no comment. MR JANSEN Chairperson, thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Jansen. Mr Tshabalala. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TSHABALALA. MR TSHABALALA Thank you Chair. Mr Schoon, when Mr Coetzee reported to you about the Cosas four, what was your reaction to it? MR SCHOON Chairperson, I have missed the question. I am looking for the correct channel. CHAIRPERSON Can you repeat the question please? MR TSHABLALA Mr Schoon, I will repeat my question. When Mr Coetzee reported to you about the Cosas four, what was you reaction to the situation then? MS THABETHE Channel 1 is Afrikaans. Channel 2 is English. CHAIRPERSON Mr Schoon, would you like to listen to the question? MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON Just a minute then please. MR TSHABALALA Mr Schoon, when Mr Coetzee reported to you about the Cosas four, what was your reaction to the situation then? MR SCHOON At first I wanted to know more and the report that he initially submitted to me was somewhat scarce. I wanted him to go back and notify the people via Mfalapitsa to not go along with their plan because this was an illegal act and he undertook to go back and convey this message to them. MR TSHABALALA A written report, or you just spoke? MR SCHOON That was the original report which Coetzee submitted to me upon which this was my reaction. MR TSHABALALA The question is whether the report was written or oral. Whether the report was written or oral. MR SCHOON ADV DE JAGER Was it a written or an oral report? MR SCHOON It was an oral report. MR TSHABALALA Did you ever enquire about the age of the youths. MR SCHOON No. MR TSHABALALA Did you ever talk with Mr Coetzee about the alternatives you could pursue? MR SCHOON Yes we did discuss this and ultimately the action which was executed was decided upon as the only alternative at our disposal. MR TSHABALALA Mr Coetzee, in his evidence, mentioned that there was a plan to assassinate W/O Nkosi. MR SCHOON That is correct. MR TSHABALALA He even mentioned that there was a sketch which was already mapped out. MR SCHOON MR TSHABALALA Did he ever show you the sketch? MR SCHOON No, he had only heard about it. MR TSHABALALA When Mr Coetzee discussed with you about the planned assassination of Mr Nkosi, did you ever ask him whether Nkosi knows or not? MR SCHOON MR TSHABALALA MR SCHOON Chairperson, I accepted that he would have informed Nkosi because Nkosi was one of their men in Krugersdorp. CHAIRPERSON MR SCHOON Chairperson, during those times I did because we had to rely heavily upon black members and if they were to be murdered we would have found less black members who were willing to work for us. Secondly, they tried by means of their actions, to topple the dispensation of that time and it was part MR TSHABALALA Did Mr Coetzee discuss his relationship with Mr Nkosi to you? MR SCHOON No Chairperson, I simply knew that they were comrades. MR TSHABALALA When Mr Coetzee suggested the plan to you did you try to dissuade him from suggesting that plan? MR SCHOON No Chairperson, he informed me that they had already discussed other possibilities and the only conclusion which they could reach, that would be him and Mfalapitsa, was the action which was ultimately planned. MR TSHABALALA I put it to you that the motive was not to safeguard Nkosi but to kill the Cosas four. MR SCHOON No Chairperson, that is not so. MR TSHABALALA What was your reaction when Nkosi reported to you that the job has been done? MR SCHOON I accepted it as a task which had been concluded. Yes, I congratulated him. I simply told him "Well done". MR TSHABALALA Did you report to your superior? MR SCHOON Yes I did. MR TSHABALALA And what was his reaction? MR SCHOON The same, that they were satisfied with the results. MR TSHABALALA Did you ever receive anything in reward for the job done? MR SCHOON No Chairperson, except my monthly salary. MR TSHABALALA Will you regard your actions then as proportional to the objectives which you were pursuing at the time? MR SCHOON That is correct. We were in a struggle against the ANC SACP and the Communist Alliance whose objective it was to bring the Republic of that time down by means of an armed struggle by using infiltration and agents, by sowing unrest. I regarded it as my duty to attempt to avoid the emergence of anarchy and chaos in the country. MR TSHABALALA So is it correct to say that the issue was not Nkosi but to prevent the ANC SACP Alliance from overthrowing the government? MR SCHOON Nkosi was a very small pawn that had to be protected. The actual protection was aimed at the government of the day. MR TSHABALALA I put it to you that there was no plan to kill Nkosi. MR SCHOON That is not what was conveyed to me. MR TSHABALALA With regard to the rewards which were paid to the Askaris at the time, do you have any knowledge that the rewards were standard or were according to the job done. MR SCHOON MR TSHABALALA MR SCHOON MR TSHABALALA So you were not interested to know who were the people involved there, who will be involved in carrying out the operation? MR SCHOON I had no interest in that at that stage. MR TSHABALALA When did you tell Mr Coetzee to continue? MR SCHOON The second time, or the second visit that he paid to me in this regard. MR TSHABALALA In the first instance when you met you said he should dissuade Cosas Four from carrying out their plan. Is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct. MR TSHABALALA And the second time when he came back to you? MR SCHOON He reported to me that the Cosas members were not about to abandon their plan and that they were already in possession of plans and I undertook to clear this story up further with a higher authority. Afterwards I told him to continue, that this had been cleared. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshabalala, is it convenient, I want to adjourn for lunch? MR TSHABALALA Chair, I just have two questions. What will you say to the families today of the deceased and the survivor himself? MR VISSER With respect I object to that question Chairperson. This is an Amnesty Application, it is not a hearing before the Human Rights Violation Committee and this witness ought not to be placed in a position where he has to answer that question. CHAIRPERSON Yes, technically of course Mr Visser you are correct. It is not unheard of that some people use even this process, which is really part of a broader one, to try and reach broader objectives than simply a technical sort of inquiry, but I mean you are quite correct, it is not, strictly speaking, an issue that calls to be decided here. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson, having given myself one second to rethink the matter I think you are rather correct and I believe that seeing that this process is all geared towards national reconciliation, I withdraw my objection. You are absolutely correct. MR TSHABALALA With respect, Chair, I withdraw my question too. Did you know of the involvement of the explosives expert? MR SCHOON MR TSHABALALA No further questions Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TSHABALALA CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Schoon I would remind you that you are still under oath. W F SCHOON (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mr Schoon, can you please explain why was it so important for you to protect Mr Nkosi. MR SCHOON Chairperson, it was important to protect the policeman because he was a symbol of the government of the day and if something were to happen to him it would have been an advantage for the ANC. MS THABETHE MR SCHOON MS THABETHE Coming to that decision that was taken to kill the victims, you indicated to us that it would have been critical for you to arrest these people because then it would have meant you have to expose a lot of people. Is that correct? MR SCHOON Yes Chairperson, in this regard it would have exposed the person who was involved in the case, that would have been Mfalapitsa and that would have meant that we would have lost a very important source. MS THABETHE Did you maybe consider detaining them without trial? MR SCHOON I beg your pardon? MS THABETHE Did you consider detaining the victims without trial? MR SCHOON Yes Chairperson, it was considered and it was decided that this was not the solution. MS THABETHE Why? MR SCHOON Because it would not have put them out of circulation for long enough. MS THABETHE Can you also briefly explain what was political about your act of protecting Mr Nkosi, just briefly. MR SCHOON Could you please repeat that? MS THABETHE MR SCHOON Yes. MS THABETHE Now what I want to know is that how was his protection going to advance the objectives of the government of the day? MR SCHOON MS THABETHE Would it be correct for me to say that you committed all these acts to further the objectives of the government of that day? MR SCHOON That is correct. MS THABETHE No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Mr Schoon what happened to Jan du Preez? MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON What happened to Jan du Preez? MR SCHOON He is still alive, he lives in Pretoria. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. You say that he gave the order to kill these people? MR SCHOON Yes. CHAIRPERSON You went to him and explained the position to him and according to that he gave you the order there and then to execute the plan to kill the people. MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON In what position of authority was he? MR SCHOON He was second in command of the security branch. CHAIRPERSON And you say that there was a head of the security branch. Was it Mr van der Merwe? MR SCHOON No, at that stage it was General Johan Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Coetzee. So there were other persons who occupied a higher position of authority that Mr du Preez? MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON How did you understand from where he obtained his authority to authorise such order. MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON So he had the authority to give an order to have somebody killed without consulting anybody else? MR SCHOON Chairperson, if he felt that way he could have told me directly yes, do it, or he could have told me, I would like to consult a higher authority first. The priority was his. CHAIRPERSON Is that how you understood the position? MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON And how did you understand from where that authority originated? What was his rank, was he a Brigadier? MR SCHOON He was a Senior Brigadier. CHAIRPERSON How did you understand from where his authority originated? MR SCHOON Chairperson, it was simply a culture which developed gradually within the security branch. CHAIRPERSON Was it a culture? MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON Are you uncertain whether or not he did have the authority to do this? MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON MR SCHOON He gave me the necessary permission and for that reason I accept that he did have the authority. CHAIRPERSON But you never saw any documents or any written form of official authority which was given to him? MR SCHOON No. CHAIRPERSON Did you attempt to make enquiries as to what would happen if there was a refusal for the request regarding the youths if Mfalapitsa did not react positively to the request? MR SCHOON No. CHAIRPERSON Did you consider this as a possible manner in which to handle the situation? MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON Did you consider it as an option to tell Mr Coetzee to give Mfalapitsa an order not to train them and not to give them any weapons, that you would see to it that Nkosi would be warned and that steps would be taken to ensure that Nkosi would be protected? MR SCHOON No I did not consider that. CHAIRPERSON You did not? MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON MR SCHOON No. CHAIRPERSON Any other questions from the panel? ADV GCABASHE MR SCHOON Yes I did and I was aware that he was a person who had given himself over and offered his services. ADV GCABASHE That was going to be my next question. He offered his services, you say. In his affidavit on Bundle 1 page 230 line 1,2,3 it is really one sentence, right at the top he says "I was forced to join the South African Security Branch based at Vlakplaas". You see that? MR SCHOON I see that. ADV GCABASHE You would obviously disagree with that statement? MR SCHOON ADV GCABASHE Do you recall the circumstances under which he actually approached you or do you know anything about it? MR SCHOON What I know about him is based upon hearsay. MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Jansen. We will follow the list that Mr Visser had presented to us earlier which would mean that this affidavit would be Exhibit H. ADV GCABASHE Just to confirm, Mr Schoon, you of course know nothing of those particular circumstances. You just understand him to have voluntarily offered to work for you. MR SCHOON That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser have you got any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER In the application of Mr Mfalapitsa on page 232 in bundle 1 he mentions that he drew the inference that Gen Johan Coetzee must have known about this incident. My question to you is whether you had any contact with the former security head about this. MR SCHOON No I did not discuss with him. MR VISSER Is there any reason that you could offer in terms of why he ought to have known about the incident. MR SCHOON Well, the only reason that I could think of is that there was a weekly security review or report that was compiled on a weekly basis and he would necessarily have seen or read about these incidents in that security review. MR VISSER That would depend on whether or not it had been reported during the meetings. MR SCHOON It would have been reported. MR VISSER Thank you. MR SCHOON Perhaps I should add that an incident would not necessarily be defined in terms of who or what initiated it. CHAIRPERSON Mr Schoon, you are excused. MR SCHOON Thank you Chairperson. MR SCHOON EXCUSED MR VISSER Chairperson, the next witness will be Mr Grobbelaar. He is the person sitting in the wheelchair and he will be wheeling himself into the witness box in due course. His statement has been prepared and that will be further down the list, Exhibit D. The reason why that has been done is because, this being the Schoon cycle, we intend completing further statements for Brig Schoon as well and we have made provision for them in the list of exhibits.