amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-03 JOHANNESBURG 1 A. GROBBELAAR AM 4143/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53338&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990503jh.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Grobbelaar, its not possible for you to rise so you will have to be seated while you take the oath. The witness would like to testify in Afrikaans. ABRAHAM GROBBELAAR (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser. EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. I would like to know if that microphone could be moved just a little bit closer to Mr Grobbelaar, thank you. Mr Grobbelaar, Exhibit D is a summary of your evidence. Is that correct? MR GROBBELAAR MR VISSER You have studied it and you confirm the correctness thereof. MR GROBBELAAR Yes. MR VISSER You are also applying for the death of three Cosas members and the injury of one. MR GROBBELAAR MR VISSER You refer to the background document, Exhibit A, and you request that that information also be incorporated with your evidence. MR GROBBELAAR MR VISSER Is there any aspect of Exhibit A which you feel is not of application to you? MR GROBBELAAR No. MR VISSER Your Amnesty Application appears in Bundle 1 page 214 and following up to page 220. Do you confirm the correctness of the content of that document? MR GROBBELAAR Yes I confirm this. MR VISSER In paragraph 7(a) where you were asked whether or not you were the supporter of a political party you stated non applicable. Is that answer correct? MR GROBBELAAR I did indeed belong to a political organisation and that was the National Party. MR VISSER Thus 7(a) should actually read National Party and (b) should reader supporter. Is that correct? MR GROBBELAAR MR VISSER If we could then come to this particular event on page 2 paragraph 2, would you submit to the Committee regarding your knowledge and involvement in the incident? MR GROBBELAAR Yes. In 1982 I was stationed in Soweto. Col J.C. Coetzee who was then a Captain, was the Commander of Vlakplaas. At a stage earlier in 1982 he was busy with investigation and detection of terrorists in the Soweto environment. That was also my work in Soweto and it led to the fact that he and I began to exchange information. MR VISSER Might I just interrupt you? What was your rank during that year? MR GROBBELAAR I was also a Captain. MR VISSER And what were your duties in the security branch? MR GROBBELAAR My duties were the detection of terrorists and then I was also in command of the investigative unit and the detection unit. MR VISSER As well as intelligence gathering? MR GROBBELAAR Partially the gathering of intelligence but that was not the most important component because we could obtain information from other sources as well. MR VISSER Very well, continue, paragraph 4. MR GROBBELAAR One day he told me that he had received a report from a new Askari that he had met a certain Musi. Apparently Musi has asked Mfalapitsa to assist him and some of his Cosas friends with the supply of weapons and weapons training because it was their intention to murder W/A Nkosi who was stationed at the security branch in Krugersdorp. My attention was fixed upon the fact that Mfalapitsa has also applied for amnesty and that he has also discussed the intention of the group to kill a teacher and black council member, Matsidisa. That is in Bundle 1 page 231. I do not recall that this was discussed with me but I do not deny that it may have been so. MR VISSER Just before you continue, Cosas members are discussed here. There in the Soweto environment what were the activities according to your knowledge and experience of Cosas members during the time of the struggle of the past? MR GROBBELAAR My experience was that they were very active in the regard that they intimidated people. They attacked places with bombs, they injured people and murdered people and they were a prominent aspect of the organisation of the ANC which operated on an underground basis. MR VISSER Did they contribute to the intensification of the revolutionary climate? MR GROBBELAAR MR VISSER Would you continue, paragraph 6 regarding that which was told to you by Col Coetzee? MR GROBBELAAR My attention was fixed on the fact that Mfalapitsa MR VISSER No you have already completed that. Continue with paragraph 6. MR GROBBELAAR Seeing as the matter emanated from a new Askari member who had to be protected at all costs, Col Coetzee decided to discuss the matter with Brig Schoon at Head office. Col Coetzee went to speak to Brig Schoon once again and later he informed me that the Cosas members were to be eliminated and that he required my assistance. I reconciled myself with the decision to eliminate the persons. his life and it would have diminished his value for the security branch to a great measure. Apart from that, it was clear that the life of W/O Nkosi and his family was in grave danger. MR VISSER You heard what Brig Schoon said regarding this about the broader picture and the possibility that Nkosi would be killed. Did you listen to that? MR GROBBELAAR Yes I did. MR VISSER Would you agree with that? MR GROBBELAAR Yes I do. MR VISSER And it is also so that in the struggle of the past black council members, who were regarded as sellouts by the ANC SACP Alliance, were also regarded as legitimate targets and were murdered. MR GROBBELAAR Yes. MR VISSER And that was in the promotion of the struggle against the former government? MR GROBBELAAR MR VISSER Continue. MR GROBBELAAR The plan was that weapons and/or explosive devices would be given to them and that an explosion would be arranged which would indicate that they had blown themselves up. I understood that the approval for the action came from Head office, from Brig. Schoon and higher. For the execution of the plan a building on a mining premises near Krugersdorp was selected. As soon as the four Cosas members were in the building with Mfalapitsa, Mfalapitsa would give a reason to excuse himself. As soon as he had exited the pump house explosives, which had been planted there before the time, would be detonated and the four Cosas members would be killed. operation and I agree with it especially with regard to the role fulfilled by myself. MR VISSER I beg your pardon, if I might once again interrupt you, there was a member of your unit on the scene, he has since passed away, a Mr van Tonder. MR GROBBELAAR MR VISSER Continue. Yes, we know that three persons were killed and one was injured and considerable damage was brought to the building. Is that correct? MR GROBBELAAR MR VISSER You are also aware that in your presence Col Coetzee telephonically reported to Brig Schoon about the matter. MR GROBBELAAR MR VISSER This is a bit of a repetition as a result of my error but in paragraph 19 the third sentence, could you read that? MR GROBBELAAR At all times I was aware of what the objective had been with the relevant operation and I was with Lieut Col Coetzee and Lieut Rorich when the explosion took place which killed the victims and injured the other person. MR VISSER Yes we are aware of the post mortem inquests. Did you see Mfalapitsa exiting the building at the scene? MR GROBBELAAR Yes. MR VISSER Yes, and where did he go? MR GROBBELAAR He ran towards me and Lieut Rorich where we were hiding. MR VISSER And when was the explosive device set off? MR GROBBELAAR Just as he arrived at us Lieut Rorich set the device off. MR VISSER Paragraph 22. MR GROBBELAAR I want to emphasis that my action took place during the struggle of the past, that it was aimed against supporters of a liberation movement, in protection and maintenance of the former political dispensation and that I believe bona fide that my action was proportional to my duties as a policeman and in the execution of my duties as authorised. I request, with respect, that my Amnesty Application be granted for my actions and offences in this regard. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Just one question. You mentioned on page 6 of Exhibit E at paragraph 19 of a Lieut Rorich, I would like to put it to you that during that action he was a Warrant Officer. MR GROBBELAAR It is possible. I cannot recall what his rank was and that might be quite correct. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Walt. Mr Jansen. MR JANSEN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TSHABALALA When they told you about the Cosas four did you suggest any other plan that the killing of the four? MR GROBBELAAR No, Chairperson. MR TSHABALALA I take it you agreed with the plan to kill the four? MR GROBBELAAR That is so. MR TSHABALALA Before agreeing, did you ask for more information about the four? MR GROBBELAAR No Chairperson, all that I knew was that Mr Coetzee had at a previous stage told me what would happen and where it happened and to the stage where they did not want to listen any more and that they wanted to go over to action. MR TSHABALALA And you immediately agreed with the plan? MR GROBBELAAR That is correct, chairperson. MR TSHABALALA With regard to Mfalapitsa, the question that Mfalapitsa had requested for amnesty, what persuasive value did it have in you? MR GROBBELAAR MR TSHABALALA The fact that Mfalapitsa had requested amnesty, did you trust him for that? Did you trust Mfalapitsa because he requested for amnesty? MR GROBBELAAR Yes I trusted him. ADV GCABASHE Mr Tshabalala, can I just understand the question. You are talking about the fact that he voluntarily agreed to join the security forces, not his current amnesty application? MR TSHABALALA If I may respond, the applicant had mentioned that Mfalapitsa had requested for amnesty And I gather that with the old laws there were amnesty laws. I stand to be corrected, in fact its indemnity. Mfalapitsa had requested for indemnity. I wanted to know whether that issue ...(intervention) MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR TSHABALALA Okay, Chair, my understanding was, I heard that Mfalapitsa had asked for amnesty. I understood it to be indemnity, so because of this confusion I will withdraw this question and then continue. My apologies, Chair. MR TSHABALALA Did they inform you about Nkosi? MR GROBBELAAR Yes Mr Coetzee conveyed this to me. MT TSHABALALA What did they say about Nkosi? Can you elaborate? MR GROBBELAAR Mr Coetzee told me that W/O Nkosi was the target whom these four intended to kill. MR TSHABALALA And so the plan was to protect him? The plan to execute the Cosas was out to protect Nkosi. Did they put it to you like that? MR GROBBELAAR Yes, that is so, to protect him. MR TSHABALALA MR GROBBELAAR MR TSHABALALA MR GROBBELAAR Yes, at a later stage, and I cannot recall exactly when it was, but I heard and this was over the radio, that there was an explosion and three were killed and one was injured and I though about the possibility that Mfalapitsa might be exposed. MR TSHABALALA Initially you were working towards not exposing Mfalapitsa. What actions did you take then to protect Mfalapitsa after the explosion? MR GROBBELAAR I did not do anything further to protect Mfalapitsa because he was directly under Mr Coetzee and the reason therefore was that I could not do anything and he only worked in my area at certain times, sometimes a week, sometimes two weeks and then they would move on to the next area. MR TSHABALALA Yet you were concerned about his life? MR GROBBELAAR Yes that is so. MR TSHABALALA What kind of role did you fulfill in the incident on the 15th? MR GROBBELAAR The actual role which I and my mates played was to go along and to be in radio contact with each, so that we or that I could warn Mr Rorich if innocent people came along or were in the vicinity and the explosion would take place, to prevent them from being injured and that he does not continue with the explosion. That was my purpose there and the purpose of Mr van Tonder. MR TSHABALALA Did it ever occur to you that when Mfalapitsa went into the room with Cosas 4 that he could be affected by the explosion, bearing in mind that you were concerned about his life. MR GROBBELAAR No, because that was the sign for Mr Rorich. The sign would be when Mr Mfalapitsa left the building and then he had to detonate the device. Therefore, he would not have been inside. MR TSHABALALA I take it that you were the one who was checking whether he will be coming to you, he would be coming out of the room. MR GROBBELAAR Yes, that is so Chairperson that he would come to myself and Mr Rorich. MR TSHABALALA And immediately when you saw him you gave an indication the Mfalapitsa is out of the room. MR GROBBELAAR No he came directly to us and he was at us when the explosion took place. MR TSHABALALA Did you indicate to Rorich that Mfalapitsa is going out of the room? MR GROBBELAAR No, Mr Rorich saw it himself because we were together. MR TSHABALALA Will you regard your actions at the moment as proportional to the political objectives which you were pursuing at the time? MR GROBBELAAR MR TSHABALALA Will you regard your actions proportional to the political objectives you were pursuing at the time? MR GROBBELAAR Yes, at that stage I saw it as just, but currently I do not agree with it. MR TSHABALALA Even if the acts which they were alleged to be about to commit were not committed, you regarded it as proportional to your political objectives. MR GROBBELAAR Yes, that is so. MR TSHABALALA Did you know the ages of the people which were involved with Cosas, that is the Cosas Four, did you know their age at the time? MR GROBBELAAR No, Chairperson. No I did not find out I just knew that it was young persons, but I did not know the ages of any of them. MR TSHABALALA Did you know the type of weapons used when they were blown up? MR GROBBELAAR No, Chairperson. MR TSHABALALA No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TSHABALALA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Tshabalala. Ms Thabethe, any questions? MS THABETHE No questions, Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Grobbelaar, what type of weapons were issued to members of the police like Mr Nkosi? MR GROBBELAAR As far as I know they were issued with hand weapons, pistols and then in certain instances, I can speak of only the Soweto Region, but in certain instances where there was danger, they were issued with an R1 rifle. Excuse me, and with a twelve bore shotgun. CHAIRPERSON And radios? MR GROBBELAAR If radios were available they would be issued to some of the members, but this was a scarce article which was used more by the people who were on duty and had to move around. CHAIRPERSON What other steps are taken to safeguard these members? Are visits paid to their houses Soweto? MR GROBBELAAR An arrangement was made with the unrest unit to, during their shift, they would make a turn at these particular houses, because it did indeed happen that members who were on duty were very busy but during that time there was much I would not say unrest, but there were many attacks and many other complaints which they had to attend to, but when they had the opportunity the could visit their particular house. CHAIRPERSON You say that at that stage you agreed with the actions but you do not now. MR GROBBELAAR No. CHAIRPERSON What is the current position, why do you not agree with? MR GROBBELAAR It is entirely different from that time. CHAIRPERSON You will not today kill four young persons. MR GROBBELAAR CHAIRPERSON But you are convinced that you were right at that stage. MR GROBBELAAR At that stage yes I was convinced that I was correct. CHAIRPERSON So you have changed your opinion now with regard to the correctness of the action at that stage? MR GROBBELAAR No, I regard my action at that time as correct. CHAIRPERSON So you think you were justified in taking part in this operation? MR GROBBELAAR That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did it not bother you that it was young people that you were killing? MR GROBBELAAR It did. CHAIRPERSON Did you ask your colleagues? MR GROBBELAAR No I did not Chairperson. From which colleagues do you mean? CHAIRPERSON It would seem that you had much contact with Coetzee. MR GROBBELAAR I did yes. CHAIRPERSON How did Coetzee convince you to participate in the killing of four young persons whom you did not know? MR GROBBELAAR I accepted it because I would say he had already attempted to persuade them and when he went to Pretoria and received the instruction there and he came back and conveyed to me that this was the instruction, I then accepted that it was an instruction which came from a higher authority and there was no other solution. I trusted him that it would be so and that is why I accompanied him because he asked for my assistance. CHAIRPERSON Did you realise that it was four youths whom apparently had no training in the handling of weapons and secondly, they were not in possession of any weapons. MR GROBBELAAR I realised that but I was also aware Chairperson that there were of these young people who committed acts of terror. CHAIRPERSON But you did not know these four? MR GROBBELAAR No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So you would not be in a position to judge whether they were indeed in that type of category? MR GROBBELAAR No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is it not a very difficult thing to do, to kill young persons under those circumstances, nevermind the circumstances. MR GROBBELAAR I agree with you completely Chairperson and this is something that stays with one and this was 17 years ago but it still remains with me. But when one asks for forgiveness and you ask for forgiveness for all your wrong deeds, and when one asks God to forgive you, He is the only entity who can forgive me, it helps a little, but it still bothers me. I would like to apologise the family and the other family members but this will not bring back these persons. I have to find peace within myself and if I cannot find that then I cannot continue. CHAIRPERSON I understand what you say and that is why I ask you. What is of note is that no steps were taken to see if there was any method to save this situation without killing these people. MR GROBBELAAR Chairperson you have to understand my position. I acted on what Mr Coetzee told me. I trusted him and I trusted what Mr Mfalapitsa told him and I was convinced that steps had been taken to avoid that these people would not continue with their plans, but these people came to a point, they said that we cannot wait any longer, we have to do something now. CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you Mr Grobbelaar. Mr Visser have you got any re-examination? MR VISSER No re-examination that you Chairperson. I would like in the exceptional case of Mr Grobbelaar who tells me that he is in a lot of pain, ask for him to be excused. If its necessary for him to be recalled he can come back. CHAIRPERSON Mr Grobbelaar we will excuse you from any other attendance at these hearings. MR GROBBELAAR Thank you very much Chairperson. MR GROBBELAAR EXCUSED MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Yes, I think in respect of this matter is it only your client that still remains in regard to this issue or what? Mr Rorich - alright, then perhaps we should do that.