amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-03 JOHANNESBURG 1 CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53339&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990503jh.htm MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Yes, we have it. MS VAN DER WALT It was under a covering letter. I see you have it. CHAIRPERSON Mr Rorich would you just switch on. CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mr Rorich your application is contained in an annexure to the bundle which serves before the Honourable Committee and your written application is from A1 to A3 which you had completed in your own handwriting and in this application you mention Annexure A where you describe the happenings and Annexure B deals with questions A and B as they appear in the application form. MR RORICH That is correct Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And with regard to this application, your application in Annexure A on A8 and A9. MR RORICH That is correct Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And do you confirm the content of that part of your application? MR RORICH I do so Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And the political motivation as it appears in Annexure B. Do you confirm the content of Annexure B? MR RORICH Yes I do. MS VAN DER WALT And in Annexure B in the last paragraph you mention, let me just find the correct page, it is A19 Chairperson, that the Commissioner General J van der Merwe, that his submission also be taken into consideration and you have also had regard for Exhibit A before the Committee. Do you agree that this is also relevant to you? And this is also contained briefly in Annexure B. Is that correct? MR RORICH Yes I do. MS VAN DER WALT During this incident as it appears on A8, what was your rank? MR RORICH At that stage I was a Warrant Officer. MS VAN DER WALT And you were stationed where? MR RORICH At the security branch, Ermelo. MS VAN DER WALT And you are no longer a member of the police force? MR RORICH That is correct Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT What was your rank when you resigned? MR RORICH I was a Lieutenant Colonel. MS VAN DER WALT And when did you resign? MR RORICH The 30 June 1997. MS VAN DER WALT MR RORICH That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And in paragraph 1 you mention that yourself and Col Jan Carel Coetzee from Krugersdorp security branch, came to you on the instruction of Brig Schoon. MR RORICH That is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And he asked you to execute a certain operation because you were an explosives expert. MR RORICH That is correct Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT How did you see this instruction? You mention that it came from Brig Schoon, how did you understand it? MR RORICH Chairperson, I understood that if it came from Brig Schoon, it came directly from higher authority in Pretoria at the security offices and it was an instruction which had to be executed. MS VAN DER WALT On which grounds did you work? Or let me put it this way, your immediate chief, did you inform him in Ermelo with regard to this operation? MR RORICH Not at all. MS VAN DER WALT Why not? MR RORICH This was handled on a need to know basis and the fewer people who knew about it the better. MS VAN DER WALT Did you execute any other instructions which came from Head office? MR RORICH Yes, I did Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT The information which was conveyed to you, what was it? You can refer to your application, if you have regard for paragraph 2 page A. MR RORICH Chairman, I would like to say that I just knew that I had to place an explosive device in an old pump house because people would come there for training. MS VAN DER WALT What type of people would it be? Was it just normal people? MR RORICH I accepted that it was activists who wanted to receive internal training. MS VAN DER WALT Was this told to you? MR RORICH Yes. MS VAN DER WALT By whom? MR RORICH By Capt Coetzee at that stage. MS VAN DER WALT And what did you do then? MR RORICH We arrived at the place and a pump house was pointed out to me. I went inside, I placed the explosives device, I connected them electronically, I went back to a hiding place where we waited until a vehicle arrived. MS VAN DER WALT Did you have to place it in such a manner that it would seem that these persons had blown themselves up? MR RORICH This was the instruction. MS VAN DER WALT From whom? MR RORICH From Capt Jannie Coetzee. MS VAN DER WALT Do you if certain explosive devices were given to these persons on that particular day? MR RORICH I just knew that, or it was only told to me that they were to receive instruction in the use of hand grenades and guns. I was not there when anything was handed over to them. I was not there when the plan was devised also. MS VAN DER WALT You then placed the explosives devices and what was your further instruction? When did you have to detonate the explosives device? MR RORICH Col Jan Coetzee told me that a person would go in with them when the vehicle had stopped and then the kombi would depart immediately and after the departure of the kombi one man would come out of the pump house and he would come directly to us and that was the sign that I had to wait until that man joined us and then we had to hide ourselves. MS VAN DER WALT You did not know this man? MR RORICH No, I did not. I still do not know him. MS VAN DER WALT Did you know any of the persons who went into the house? MR RORICH Not at all Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Did you know what their ages were? MR RORICH I had no idea. MS VAN DER WALT Did you see them? MR RORICH I saw people climbing out of the vehicle but I was far away from them and it was dark and I had no idea of what their ages were. MS VAN DER WALT And after these persons had arrived there where you and Mr Grobbelaar sat. MR RORICH I just turned the detonator and sent the electrical impulse and the explosion took place. MS VAN DER WALT Did you visit the scene thereafter? MR RORICH Not at all Chairperson, we immediately departed because that was the instruction and it was the idea that the people had blown themselves up. MS VAN DER WALT When you received this instruction and executed it, did you realise that this was indeed an offence? MR RORICH Yes Chairperson one can put it in such a manner that under normal circumstances it would be an offence but at that stage we were in a state of war and I saw it as an instruction which was given to me on behalf of the government and I had to execute it. MS VAN DER WALT Did you bona fide see it as part of your duties as a policeman? MR RORICH For sure. MS VAN DER WALT And what was the struggle then? MR RORICH It was the struggle in which we were embroiled with the ANC SACP Alliance who wanted to take over the country militarily. MS VAN DER WALT Did you receive any personal gain from this deed? MR RORICH Not at all Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Did you do out of malice towards these persons? MR RORICH No. MS VAN DER WALT Because you did not know them? MR RORICH No I did not. MS VAN DER WALT You also request the Honourable Committee to grant you amnesty with regard to Murder and any other offence which emanates from your deeds. MR RORICH That is correct Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT And after the incident did you know that there was one person who had survived the explosion? MR RORICH No Chairperson. I only heard thereof when we drew up these documents. MS VAN DER WALT So you then request amnesty for murder, attempted murder and damage to property? MR RORICH That is correct Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser. MR VISSER No questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Jansen. MR JANSEN No questions Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshabalala. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TSHABALALA Thank you Chair. Who approached you about doing this task? Who approached you about doing the task which was designed for you? MR RORICH I did not hear the beginning of your question. MR TSHABALALA Who approached you about doing this task? MR RORICH It was Col Coetzee. MR TSHABALALA When he explained what he wanted to do, did you ever disagree with him? MR RORICH No. MR TSHABALALA Why not? MR RORICH I did not argue with him because if it was an instruction from Head office I had to execute the instruction. If I was the person who was chosen to help, I had to perform my duty and that was it. MR TSHABALALA Was it for the first time that you had to perform such a duty? MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Tshabalala there are other pending applications by this applicant and it is the approach of the Committee not to allow pending matters to be canvassed before the time for them to be heard so I am going to unfortunately overrule you on that one. MR TSHABALALA MR RORICH In my evidence in chief I did say so, yes Chairperson. MR TSHABALALA MR RORICH It was not relevant for me. MR TSHABALALA You said in your evidence in chief that you were at the scene. Did you see the people, that is the Cosas Four going in to the house with Mfalapitsa? MR RORICH Chairperson, as I have said in my evidence in chief, it was dark but I did see people climbing out of the Kombi and going into the building. I only heard here that that was the Cosas Four. MR TSHABALALA MR RORICH I cannot answer that. MR TSHABALALA What type of explosives were used? MR RORICH Chairperson I used one kilogram high military plastic explosive which is known as PE4. MR TSHABALALA: What is the radius of destruction? MR RORICH The core of such a device would be a minimum of 25 to 30 metres in radius, Chairperson. MR TSHABALALA In your expert knowledge would it be deadly, I mean they were dangerous, the explosives which you used? MR RORICH For sure, yes. MR TSHABALALA MR RORICH Chairperson my instruction was that the persons had to be eliminated in the building so that it would seem that the explosion was caused by themselves. MR TSHABALALA Did the people who gave you the instructions describe the people you were going to eliminate? MR RORICH No they did not Chairperson. MR TSHABALALA MR RORICH Except for the fact that they were activists and this was mentioned to me. MR TSHABALALA When Mr Coetzee came to you, approached you and voiced this plan to execute the Cosas Four, did you find out whether there were any other possibilities to exploit other than using the explosives? MR RORICH Chairperson, that was not my instruction. I was not present at the planning of this operation. The only think where I was involved was to cause the explosion in an old pump house and that the people were not to survive. MR TSHABALALA Is it correct to take it that you were just receiving instructions and you carried them out? MR RORICH MR TSHABALALA No further questions Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TSHABALALA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Tshabalala. Ms Thabethe. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you Chair. Mr Rorich, when Mr Coetzee approached you exactly what did he say to you? MR RORICH Chairperson, exactly what I said in my evidence in chief, that I had to devise some explosive device in a pump house and eliminate these people and I had to concede and seeing that it was an instruction which came from higher up I had no problem with it. MS THABETHE Were you requested to plant this bomb because you were an expert on it or would you say because you were a policeman at that time? MR RORICH I was an expert in the South African Police at that time. MS THABETHE The explosives that you had used, where did you get them from? MR RORICH Chairperson it was available to us because it was necessary to have fresh explosives to destroy any weapons of terror and that is why, in terms of Act 26 of 1956, we were permitted by the Minister to have access to explosives to protect lives and properties. MS THABETHE MR RORICH Chairperson an activist and an instruction from Head office made clear and place me in a position where I must do the work or I was too scared to do it. I was not scared, I did my work. MS THABETHE MR RORICH I see she is looking at the people there. CHAIRPERSON Please repeat the last part of your answer. MR RORICH Chairperson, I have to explain this to her very slowly. Captain Jan came to me with a certain request and that this was cleared with Head office. I could have refused because I was too scared to do the work, or I could agree and do the work and I agreed to do the work because I was not scared of it. MS THABETHE MR RORICH Exactly, because this was as instruction from Head office. MS THABETHE Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON You could refuse to participate in this operation? MR RORICH I had felt that I had a duty towards my country and the people of my country at that stage and I could not refuse and that is why I agreed and I have already said I was not scared to carry out this order. CHAIRPERSON I do understand that, but I am trying to find out because you said that Capt Jan came with a request and you decided to execute this instruction because you were not scared. MR RORICH That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MR RORICH I could have taken such a decision but I did not. CHAIRPERSON He comes from Krugersdorp and you are in Ermelo? MR RORICH That is correct. But at that stage I was aware of the fact that he was the Commander of Vlakplaas and I was aware that this was the unit which resorted under Brig Schoon and everything with regard to terrorist insurgency was channeled from Head office to Brig Schoon and therefore I had no problem with the instruction and with the request which was directed at me. I saw it as an opportunity to put my own knowledge and productivity to use in the struggle in which we were involved at that stage. CHAIRPERSON MR RORICH With regard to these people I just knew that they were activists who would receive instruction this evening in the use of weapons and hand grenades and that training would be applied within the country to hurt other people. I did not have a problem with it. CHAIRPERSON MR RORICH Its possible. CHAIRPERSON Are you and Mr Coetzee good friends? MR RORICH I knew him as a Captain. Yes, we have seen each other elsewhere and beforehand, but personal friends and visiting each other at home, no, I do not know his personal circumstances, I do not where he lived, we were colleagues. He was a senior officer as far as I was concerned and I had no problem executing orders from my seniors. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any indication why he chose you? MR RORICH No and I never asked him about it. I knew that I was in that privileged position that he placed his trust in me to perform my duties to the best of my ability. CHAIRPERSON Did he tell you not to tell your own Commander of this operation? MR RORICH Chairperson, as I have said in my evidence in chief, we worked on a need to know basis. There are things that your Commander needed to know and then there were things that your Commander did not need to know. If an instruction came from a higher authority, you executed it without asking any questions and afterwards I did not even ask questions. CHAIRPERSON Did Mr Coetzee tell you not to tell your Commanding Officer of the operation? MR RORICH No. If my Commanding Officer knew of this operation, he would have called me in himself. I considered it a very delicate operation because the instruction came from much higher up and Coetzee who was the Commander of C1 Unit at Vlakplaas, that he personally came to fetch me or came to see me at Ermelo and I regarded this as something which has to stay here and it has nothing to do with anybody else and this is how I dealt with it. Even after the explosion I did not even try to contact anybody or to find out what had happened except of course as Brig Schoon had said earlier in his evidence in chief, that it was practice at that stage that, on a weekly basis, us who are in the rural areas, but we did receive security overviews, and in my position I had access to those security overviews which gave the incidents which had happened right over the country and I accepted that it could have been that thing. That is all. Furthermore I never spoke a single word to anybody else with regard to this incident up till today. CHAIRPERSON And you deduced it from the circumstances and from the request. MR RORICH It was not necessary, we were all grown-ups. CHAIRPERSON And you had to deal with it confidentially? MR RORICH Yes we were all security police and if we received an instruction from our senior police officer I have to perform my duty or I leave it and I tell it to him straight, "Capt Jan I will go with you or I stay here." I did not refuse. CHAIRPERSON But would it happen that your own Commander did not fit into the picture? MR RORICH That was not the first time. CHAIRPERSON Are there any other questions? ADV GCABASHE Just on that point. This was not a general practice in the security branch that an individual could go and work with another unit without telling his or her Commander, or without that person who requests your assistance checking with your Commander that you are available to assist. MR RORICH Chairperson, the fact of the matter is that when Head office gave me an order and I received this from a senior officer, I executed it. ADV. GCABASHE MR RORICH ADV GCABASHE MR RORICH ADV GCABASHE MR RORICH ADV GCABASHE MR RORICH ADV GCABASHE MR RORICH I looked at Capt Grobbelaar, he shook his head, I turned around and it was over. ADV GCABASHE Where was Mfalapitsa at the time? MR RORICH He came into the old building where we were seeking shelter. He came in there with us. ADV GCABASHE Thank you very much. ADV DE JAGER MR RORICH ADV DE JAGER Was that attitude of yours well known among your colleagues? MR RORICH ADV DE JAGER How far was the building in which you sheltered from the pump house? MR RORICH If I had to give an answer I would estimate in the vicinity of 100 metres or more. ADV DE JAGER And did you wait until the person who they told you would exit the pump house to be in your shelter before you detonated the device? MR RORICH ADV DE JAGER MR RORICH No, they might be able to tell you. ADV DE JAGER Yes, I also think that the person who selected you would be able to provide a much more satisfactory answer than you could. MR RORICH Yes I believe so. RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT MR RORICH MS VAN DER WALT And you have just stated that you were not afraid of the work because what you did you did for your country. MR RORICH That is completely correct. MS VAN DER WALT If I understand your evidence correctly, there was a question which was put by Adv Gcabashe that you would have done this if anybody had trusted you. Is that correct, or did you do it because you knew and you believed that the order came from Head office. MR RORICH MS VAN DER WALT But you believed that the order came from Head office? MR RORICH Certainly. MS VAN DER WALT You did not act as a Rambo, you did this for your Volk and Fatherland? MR RORICH Yes I executed my duties within that context. MS VAN DER WALT MR RORICH No, and I did not question this because it was a delicate operation, as it was put to me. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Walt. Mr Rorich you are excused. Thank you very much. MR RORICH EXCUSED MS VAN DER WALT That concludes my evidence for this application. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms van der Walt. Yes Mr Jansen. MR JANSEN CHAIRPERSON MR JANSEN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We have really only got the evidence of Mr Mfalapitsa left in terms of applicants insofar as the Cosas Four matter is concerned. We have virtually come to the end of the day in any event. We have previously indicated that Mr Mfalapitsa, for various reasons, is not physically present at the proceedings at this stage but steps are being taken to ensure and secure his attendance. We are adjourned. Just a minute! ADV DE JAGER CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn and we will reconvene at 9.30 tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS