amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-10 JOHANNESBURG 6 FREDERIK CRAUSE AM 4124 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53348&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990510jh.htm FREDERIK CRAUSE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman, we refer you to Bundle 1, page 164. The actual incident is at page 174 Chairperson. Mr Crause, you applied for amnesty in relation to the incident that is now handled, is that correct? Do you have your amnesty application in front of you? MR CRAUSE That is correct. MR VISSER Do you confirm the correctness and the truth of this as far as your knowledge is concerned? MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER In 1986, in December, where were you stationed then? MR CRAUSE I was at the Safety Branch in Zeerust, Chairperson. MR VISSER And is it correct that Mr Du Preez Smit was your Branch Commander and that he was on leave and that Lieutenant Wehrmann stood in in his place then? MR CRAUSE That is correct. MR VISSER What can you tell us of your knowledge of this incident? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, the day of the 31st of December 1986, I received a telephone call from Lieutenant Wehrmann where he told me to depart to a place in the area of Nietverdiendt. MR VISSER It is a farm? MR CRAUSE It is a farm yes, Chairperson, and that an operation was being planned there in Ramotswe vicinity in Botswana. MR VISSER What did you find on this farm? MR CRAUSE Chairperson on the farm, I think I was first on the farm if I am not mistaken, but later on Brigadier Loots, Lieutenant Wehrmann, Colonel Smit, Inspector Modise or Warrant Officer Modise and members of the Special Forces of the Defence Force arrived on the farm. MR VISSER Can you remember how many members were present? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, the Special Forces members were four, along with Mr Naude. MR VISSER Very well, did you personally hear what was being said there with regards to information or what was being planned? MR CRAUSE I only made a deduction Chairperson, that MK members during the same evening in Ramotswe in a specific house, that they would be staying there for that evening. MR VISSER Did you know what the planning involved and that an operation would be carried out against this specific house and what would it mean if you carry out such an operation? MR CRAUSE That the house would be attacked, Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you have any part further and if so, what was your part? MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. I went with the group, this includes Brigadier Loots, Colonel Smit, Lieutenant Wehrmann, Modise. MR VISSER The people that you mentioned before? MR CRAUSE That is correct. MR CRAUSE And the Special Forces group. At the border post at Ramotswe, we went Chairperson. MR VISSER We know from Brigadier Loots that Modise had to go and identify the house for the Special Forces? MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER What happened then? MR CRAUSE Upon our arrival at the border, we found that - I am not sure, but I think that it is the Ramotswe river - that it was in flood, seeing as it rained a lot the previous day. Mr Modise was afraid to go into the water or to walk through the river and Brigadier Loots gave me an order to take Mr Modise through the river. MR VISSER Did you then help Mr Modise through the river? MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER What happened on the other side of the river? MR CRAUSE On the other side of the river, Mr Modise led our group to where we found a tar road. We walked alongside the tar road for about 500 metres. He pointed out a house to us. Myself and Modise then in reaction to a Commander of the Special Forces, we hid about 30 metres away from the house in a ditch, about half way from the house, about 30 metres I would say Chairperson. It was dark, it could have been closer or maybe a little further and it was not very deep ditch, it was just a ... The three Special Forces members then went to the house. The next moment I heard a window break, I heard an extreme explosion after that, I accepted that it was a handgrenade that had been thrown into the house. I then heard several shots of automatic rifle fire. After a while the three Special Forces members returned. I asked their Commander "did you find them" and he said he shot two people dead, a man and a woman in a bed. MR VISSER Could you see if the Special Forces members had gone into that house? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, I accept that they had gone into the house because the automatic shots sounded as if it was being fired inside the house and definitely not from outside the house. MR VISSER When they returned, what did you do then? MR CRAUSE We immediately moved back to the border and once again joined Brigadier Loots. MR VISSER Did you report to Brigadier Loots about what you had seen? MR CRAUSE I think I just told him that the person told me that he had killed two people, a man and a wife. MR VISSER Mr Crause, when before the operation, you heard about the operation and that the house was going to be attacked or would be attacked, did you realise that people could be killed? MR CRAUSE Absolutely Chairperson. MR VISSER Was it told to you who those people were that were targeted? MR CRAUSE It was Sadie Pule and Take Five Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you know what their part in the struggle was? MR CRAUSE I did know that Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you agree with this operation? MR CRAUSE Absolutely, Chairperson. MR VISSER I forgot to ask you Exhibit A, you did look at it, is that correct? MR CRAUSE Exhibit A, that is the background document, I did study it Chairperson. MR VISSER You say that as far as you were concerned, this is what happened before 1983 or that what happened before 1983 is not relevant to you and you don't have personal knowledge of that, is that correct? MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER You also do not have personal knowledge of the incidents regarding Lesotho and Swaziland which appears in that document, Exhibit A? MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you acknowledge that the rest of Exhibit A is also applicable to you and do you ask that the Committee considers this evidence with its consideration of your application? MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER You would then ask for amnesty for the murder of a person or persons in this house, conspiracy to murder, damage and so on, is that correct? MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And lastly, there is a document Exhibit M, which has appeared in front of the Committee this morning, the first page of Exhibit M, what is that? MR CRAUSE It is a page that I set up after I had read the pages Chairperson, and I made a short excerpt of what is important with relation to this incident. MR VISSER It would appear as if your comment on Take Five's correct name be Aaron Mkwanazi is correct, because we have a declaration from him? MR CRAUSE That is correct sir. MR VISSER And the rest of this document, we understand this to be excerpts of information printed out from computers that were confiscated from certain ANC people? MR CRAUSE That is positive sir. MR VISSER Do you personally from your own knowledge, know how many people indeed died in this operation? MR CRAUSE I do not know Chairperson. MR VISSER And regarding information that later came to light, it was either a woman or a woman and a man? MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And you are now applying for amnesty for both? MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER That is his evidence in chief, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Exhibit M, the annexures, this is directed at the Attorney, was this in your possession? MR CRAUSE I received it from Brigadier Loots. CHAIRPERSON Are you still a Police Officer? MR CRAUSE Yes, I am Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Where are you stationed? MR CRAUSE I am stationed at Potchefstroom. CHAIRPERSON In which division? MR CRAUSE I am the Provincial Commander of the Explosives' Desk. CHAIRPERSON Are you an Explosives' person? MR CRAUSE I do the bomb cleaning up Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When did you receive this information from Brigadier Loots? MR CRAUSE I think the date is on top of the document, the 30th of April of this year. If you see at the top of the document, I had drawn it up the same day and then I faxed it to Mr Visser. CHAIRPERSON At the moment you do not have access to this documentation? MR CRAUSE No Chairperson, I do not. CHAIRPERSON Mr Loots is retired? MR CRAUSE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did he tell you where he received this documents from? MR CRAUSE I did not ask him Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Mr Mohlaba, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson. Mr Crause, you said that you received a telephone call on the 31st of December 1986 from Lieutenant Wehrmann, what time was it approximately? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, it is difficult to say, but I would assume that it was about three o'clock in the afternoon. MR MOHLABA You subsequently went to a farm which you referred to as Nietverdiendt, is that correct? MR CRAUSE That is positive Chairperson. MR MOHLABA Who owns this farm? MR CRAUSE I am not sure Chairperson. It was rented from somebody, I do not know who was the owner. MR MOHLABA It was rented out by, it was rented out to? MR CRAUSE To the SAP. MR MOHLABA And did the reason for ordering you to go to Nietverdiendt, was that explained to you over the telephone? MR CRAUSE They did not give any reason, it was just told to me that I had to go to Nietverdiendt. MR MOHLABA And you mentioned that you were the first one to arrive there and subsequently other people whom you mentioned by name, joined you. What was discussed when they arrived if anything was ever discussed? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, there was discussion between Brigadier Loots, Wehrmann, Colonel Smit and Mr Naude. I did not follow the discussion because I was in and out of there. The attack on a house in Ramotswe was discussed. MR MOHLABA So you did not participate in this discussion, did you? MR CRAUSE I heard some of it, but I did not participate in the discussion. MR MOHLABA Are you able to give account of what was discussed or can't you? MR CRAUSE I know it was mentioned that there was information that Take Five and Sadie Pule would spend this specific evening in a house in Ramotswe, Chairperson, and that the house would be attacked. MR MOHLABA Before you left to carry out this attack, was there a discussion of a role you and Modise are going to play and who was to do the actual attack on the terrorists there or the occupants of the house? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, Special Forces' persons would attack the house and Modise would point out the house. MR MOHLABA The reason for you going there, what role were you intending to play there? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, it is a known infiltration route and we also worked in teams when we worked there. MR MOHLABA Yes, I understand that, my question is, I am asking this on the background that Modise had a specific duty to do there, he was to point out the house and certain people were to carry out the attack. What were you assigned to do? MR CRAUSE As I have said previously, when we arrived at the border, the river was in flood and Brigadier Loots told me to take Modise through because he was afraid to enter the water. MR MOHLABA So the main role why you went across is because Modise was not able to swim, he could not cross unassisted, is that the only reason? MR CRAUSE Yes, was the only reason why I went through the river. MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Mohlaba. Ms Thabethe, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE One question Mr Chair. Exactly where were you when the attack took place, when the attack took place? MR CRAUSE When they attacked, I was about 30 metres from the house that was attacked. MS THABETHE So you did not participate in any way in the attack? MR CRAUSE No. MS THABETHE No further questions, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Could you see the house from where you were? MR CRAUSE Yes Chairperson. Chairperson, it is a type of suburb, but the houses are not close together. I would describe it as a traditional black township in that area, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you have a look at the house, you saw the three walking? MR CRAUSE I did Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And did you see them moving towards the house? MR CRAUSE Yes, I did Chairperson, they moved around the house. CHAIRPERSON This is the specific house which Modise had pointed out? MR CRAUSE Undoubtedly it was the house that he had pointed out Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So you would say the three operatives moved around the house and they were out of sight? MR CRAUSE Yes Chairperson, they were out of sight. CHAIRPERSON Is this towards the back of the house or towards the front of the house? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, we were to the back of the house and they went around to the front. CHAIRPERSON Were the lights off in the house? MR CRAUSE The lights were all off in the house, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you hear the operatives saying anything before you heard the window? MR CRAUSE No Chairperson, not at all, I heard the window breaking and then I heard the explosion. CHAIRPERSON And immediately after the explosion? MR CRAUSE I heard the automatic fire. CHAIRPERSON So it would seem that they went and attacked first with a handgrenade and then went into the house and fired shots inside the house? MR CRAUSE Absolutely Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON This all happened very quickly? MR CRAUSE Yes Chairperson, very quickly. CHAIRPERSON Did the operatives know who they had to shoot? MR CRAUSE I do not know Chairperson, but I would assume that they did know because Take Five and Sadie Pule was indeed mentioned there. CHAIRPERSON Did you see whether they saw any pictures of Pule and Take Five? MR CRAUSE I was not present when this was done Chairperson, I cannot confirm it therefore. CHAIRPERSON From this discussion, you just moved with these persons. Did you, from the discussion, did you deduce that they knew exactly who they had to kill? MR CRAUSE I think that the leader of the group knew who they would shoot, but he spoke in a language which I did not know, but they were just along to launch the attack. CHAIRPERSON The other two, did they speak in a foreign language? MR CRAUSE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON In a black language? MR CRAUSE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And the leader of the group? MR CRAUSE Afrikaans Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did he sound like a white person? MR CRAUSE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You did not know the leader of this group? MR CRAUSE No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is it the leader that said that he shot two persons in a bed? MR CRAUSE The leader told me that he had shot a man and a woman who were laying in a bed. CHAIRPERSON What type of firearms did they have? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, it looked like R4's. CHAIRPERSON Is this the type of shots that you heard inside the house? MR CRAUSE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Automatic and semi-automatic? MR CRAUSE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And it is just that as you have heard it, it would seem it was only the R4? Did it not seem that there were any other shots fired? MR CRAUSE No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But it would seem that the people in the house did not fire back? MR CRAUSE No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON When you accompanied the group, what specific image did you have as to what would they do? MR CRAUSE Chairperson, I believed that they would attack the house and that they would eliminate two MK members. CHAIRPERSON Pule and Take Five? MR CRAUSE That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So this was in your mind that the attack was aimed at these two people and that they would be eliminated? MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And as we have heard during the discussions, was it also the impression of your colleagues at the scene? MR CRAUSE Yes Chairperson, although we were all aware that innocent people or other people could be injured with the use of automatic firearms. CHAIRPERSON The attack was launched against Pule and Take Five. MR CRAUSE That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And when you departed from the scene and the leader told you, were you under the impression that it was Take Five and Pule? MR CRAUSE I was absolutely under the impression that it was the two of them, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And your colleagues? When you left after the attack, were they under the same impression? MR CRAUSE I believe that they were under the same impression Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But you did not form the idea that they were dissatisfied with this operation? MR CRAUSE Not at all Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON They were satisfied? MR CRAUSE Yes Chairperson, they were satisfied that these two persons had been eliminated. CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you. Mr Visser, have you got any re-examination? MR VISSER None, thank you Mr Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Crause, you are excused, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED