amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-11 JOHANNESBURG 7 ALBERTUS JOHANNES WANDRAG AM 4363 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53354&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990511jh.htm MR VISSER The next witness is Gen Wandrag, Chairperson. I'll address you the moment he has taken the oath. ALBERTUS JOHANNES WANDRAG (sworn states) MR VISSER General you apply for amnesty in the current incident, is that correct? MR WANDRAG That is correct, Chairperson. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MR VISSER Your original application is to be found in bundle 1, page 156 to 163, is that correct? INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not one. MR VISSER Do you confirm the correctness and truth thereof? MR WANDRAG I do confirm so, Mr Chairman. MR VISSER I don't know what we have lost here. We refer to your original amnesty application in bundle 1. You say you confirm the content thereof? MR WANDRAG Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR VISSER General, if I may refer you to page 157 at the top of the page you say that from the 31/12/89 or from September 1972 until 31/12/89 you were in different posts at the Counter Insurgency Unit of the SA Police. MR WANDRAG That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Would you please briefly give us the information as to what the situation was at Counter Insurgence and whether they had different divisions and where you fitted into the picture, who the Commander was, just in brief please. MR WANDRAG Chairperson, ...(intervention) MR VISSER Excuse me, may I interrupt? Please specify or think in terms of 1981 because that is the year which is of interest to us, in December of that year what was the position? MR WANDRAG In December 1981 the Commanding Officer of the Counter Insurgency Unit was Major General Verster. I was then a brigadier and I served under him as the overhead Commander of the Special Task Force which was a subdivision of the Counter Insurgency Unit. But under my responsibility resorted as well border control which entailed the handling of different police bases on the South African border with the neighbouring states surrounding South Africa. The responsibility of these persons at these bases was to patrol the border physically to counter any insurgencies of terrorists, as well as other illegals and to control these as well as counter any persons wanting to leave the country illegally. MR VISSER You have studied Exhibit A, the general background, and you have knowledge of what is contained therein. MR WANDRAG That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And do you concur with the contents thereof? MR WANDRAG I do, but however I would just like to mention that in paragraph L on page 3 or paragraph 11 on page 3 at the bottom "members of the Security Branch were exposed to war situations" that something else has to be added there, that the Security Branch and Special Task Force were exposed to the war situations. MR VISSER Very well. MR WANDRAG And then paragraph 25, exactly the same. To maintain this level of efficiency would mean members of the Security Forces and the Special Task Forces had to work long hours under very difficult circumstances. MR VISSER Very well. Except for that you would agree that the contents of this document are applicable to you and be incorporated in your application as well as the evidence that is referred to in Exhibit A? A statement was drawn up on your behalf, which will now be Exhibit Q, do you have that exhibit before you? MR WANDRAG I do Chairperson. MR VISSER And do you confirm the correctness of the contents of that statement? MR WANDRAG I do so confirm Chairperson. MR VISSER Would you please address us from paragraph 1 on page 2, or excuse me, there are two paragraphs 1, the second paragraph 1. MR WANDRAG By introduction I would like to mention that since 1978 I was the Overhead Commander of the Special Task Force which was a branch of the Counter Insurgency Unity of the South African Police. Gen H V Verster was the Commanding Officer of the Counter Insurgency Unit during 1981. MR VISSER I would just like to ask you, what was the purpose of the Special Task Force, General? MR WANDRAG The purpose of the Special Task Force, Mr Chairperson, was to handle hostage dramas within the South African Republic, as we did do during the Silverton bank incident. Secondly, the stopping of insurgency units. Thirdly, it was in support of the South African Police right through South Africa at high risk operations where, and with this I mean rescue operations which would include the rescue on dams in the country and at sea and finally to be applied in instances where expertise would be needed to deal with a situation. MR VISSER And consequently it is correct to say that the task of the Special Task Force was to act in situations which were extraordinary and to be of assistance to the South African Police? MR WANDRAG That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER But the Special Task Force was not the Security Police? MR WANDRAG No, it was an independent unit. MR VISSER And it was a uniformed Task? MR WANDRAG Yes, it was a uniformed Task. MR VISSER Would you please continue? You would also be involved in normal civil incidents that had nothing to do with politics where a hostage would be taken, a child, and you would be called in such situations? MR WANDRAG That is correct, Mr Chairperson and it is still used to that effect today. MR VISSER Would you please continue with paragraph 2? MR WANDRAG I confirm that my unit during 1981, the Special Task Force, was requested by Col Viktor to be of assistance in the arrest of suspected terrorists at the Swaziland border. This action was authorised by the then Security Head, Gen J Coetzee. MR VISSER And you told us that special expertise was needed in this incident? MR WANDRAG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And why were you needed there? MR WANDRAG Because, Chairperson, the request that was made to us and it was made clear to me that the arrests of the suspected persons or terrorists at the border would, or entailed two high profile MK members who according to information conveyed to me by Col Viktor were highly trained MK members and who maintained a high profile. MR VISSER Was there any talk of their being armed? MR WANDRAG Yes this was conveyed to me and it was because of that they needed the expertise of a specially trained unit and that the persons may be armed and it was necessary to apply the services of the Special Task Force. The idea was that they had to be arrested. The instruction was that it had to be done so as to arrest the persons so that the Security Branch could continue with investigations which they were dealing with. The Operational Commander of the Special Task Force, was then Capt Strydom. I called Capt Strydom to my office. I sketched the background to him as to the approval of the operation and the request that was directed at me or to me and instructed him that he had to liaise with the Security Branch and all necessary information had to be collected by him and then, in co-operation with the Security Branch, they had to devise a plan so that these persons could be arrested. MR VISSER Did you give him any other instructions in the case of whether an arrest would not be possible or there was any possible danger? MR WANDRAG If there was any possible danger, they had to ensure that none of the Special Task Force persons be injured, or if a skirmish ensued, they had to ensure that if any Task Force person was killed in the crossfire, then he had to brought out to the RSA. MR VISSER Did you give any instruction as to how he must react in case of danger? MR WANDRAG This was left to his own judgment because on ground level the Commander during the operation is responsible for instructions and orders given. MR VISSER Please continue with paragraph 3. MR WANDRAG On a date, we know now that it was the 8th of December 1981, members of the Task Force departed to Oshoek. The Task Force members also later departed to the Oshoek border post. The Security Branch members who left for Oshoek, whom I later met, were Col Viktor, Col Schoon, Maj Frik Nel, Lieut. Schalk Visser, Capt Visser and Sgt Selepe. I joined the group later during that day to make the necessary arrangements at the border post and we were stationed at the Oshoek border post to limit the patrols on the Swaziland/RSA border, to ensure that the Task Force, while executing the operation to arrest these persons, that they would not come into contact with a patrol on the border because such a meeting would cause, or would have the effect that they would shoot at each other and after I made this arrangement that patrols not be carried out, I returned to Oshoek border post and joined the group of Security Branch officers. The Task Force members, accompanied by Capt Visser, had already crossed over the border to the specific point where a source of the Security Branch had pointed out to them. Later that evening members of the Task Force returned and Capt Strydom reported to me that the vehicle did indeed arrive as they had planned but that it had stopped in the wrong place and they could not execute an arrest and he had withdrawn his men. At the request of the then Col Viktor arrangements were made that the person or persons would return to the rendezvous point and I gave instruction that the Task Force members who had moments before departed, be caught up with and that they be told that they needed to return, which they indeed did. I told the Operational Commander, or I asked the Operational Commander if it is possible to try once again to execute the arrest, which they did indeed do. I waited at the Oshoek border post along with the security officers and at some stage we heard the gunshots from automatic rifles and afterwards everything was quiet. A while later Capt Visser and Major Strydom reported back that during the execution of the operation circumstances necessitated them to fire on these suspects and that some of them had been killed. He could not however supply any more particulars. He also further told me that because of the skirmish no arrest could be executed. Capt Strydom informed me that because of a person who had spoken when the vehicle stopped at the scene and had heard the noise of a machine gun being cocked, he did not act further and execute an arrest and then they decided to fire. The Task Force members withdrew immediately after the incident and returned to Pretoria, after it was established that none of them had been injured during the incident. The same day in the early morning hours I returned to Pretoria. I was aware that the attempted abduction of persons from Swaziland was illegal, I accept that the killing of these persons was illegal and throughout I was aware that, where arrests be executed, that the chances were great that these persons would be armed and that they would resist. I then foresaw that a skirmish would ensue where people could be killed or injured and I reconciled myself herewith. Furthermore after this incident I did not disclose the true facts and made myself guilty of defeating the ends of justice. I had heard that two persons were killed in this incident. I refer to a newspaper extract which accompanies this. We have already drawn the attention of the Committee to this newspaper extract. No names were given there. The actions and omissions of which I am guilty I had executed during the execution of my official duties and as part of my opposition to the struggle and was aimed at supporters of the liberation movement. What I have done I did to protect the interests of the government and the National Party and to ward off the revolutionary onslaught. Chairperson, I request that amnesty be granted to me for my actions and omissions in this regard. Thank you Chairperson. MR VISSER That is the evidence in chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO No questions, Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Ms van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Mr Wandrag, I've got one question for you. According to the reports that you got after the attack, was the reason furnished, was it the only reason furnished that they heard a cock of an AK47, that's why they shot back? I don't know whether that was your evidence, or I'm misinterpreting? MR WANDRAG No, he reported to me that he'd heard a person talking loudly and he'd heard the noise of a weapon that's been spanned. MS THABETHE And that's what gave rise to the killing? MR WANDRAG That is when he wasn't prepared to risk the lives of his men and that's why he gave the order to fire. MS THABETHE Thank you, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Did Mr Strydom tell you where the weapon was cocked? MR WANDRAG Right at the vehicle that was stopped Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did he given you any other reports with regard to the vehicle and the occupants? Did he tell you how many persons were there, of which sex they were, or anything else? MR WANDRAG No, he did not tell me what sex they were but he did mention that it was two persons, but he did not mention any sex. CHAIRPERSON Were these unknown persons? MR WANDRAG To us they were unknown persons. CHAIRPERSON What did you understand, what did this operation entail, who was to be involved here, who had to be arrested? MR WANDRAG I was informed that the Commanders of one Mnisi who had already been arrested and that it was high profile Commanders and Commanders of the ANC and that they had to be arrested to combat the onslaught specifically in the Northern Transvaal. CHAIRPERSON How many of these Commanders had to be arrested? MR WANDRAG They said that there were two, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did they give you any names? MR WANDRAG No, they did not give me any names, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON They didn't talk about MK George? MR WANDRAG Not with me, Mr Chairperson, it was only mentioned that two Commanders had to be arrested. CHAIRPERSON Did you have any knowledge of an MK George at that stage? MR WANDRAG I did not have knowledge because I did not have that information at my disposal at the time, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And MK Brown, did you have any knowledge of such a person? MR WANDRAG No, Mr Chairperson, it was totally unknown to me at that stage. CHAIRPERSON That name was also not mentioned in those conversations? MR WANDRAG No, Mr Chairperson, not when the request was made. CHAIRPERSON What did Strydom tell you? Did he tell you that there were two people killed? MR WANDRAG No, he did not say two people were killed, he said that they had apparently been killed because the vehicle had caught fire. CHAIRPERSON How many men did you send on this operation? MR WANDRAG If I remember correctly Mr Chairperson, approximately, I didn't count them, because they were already in vehicles, about 8 to maximum 10, if my memory serves me correctly. CHAIRPERSON And they were all from the Task Force? MR WANDRAG All from the Task Force, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you, did the Police of the Special Forces also use the army at that stage? MR WANDRAG Not at that stage. The Security Branch did, Mr Chairperson, but myself and the Commander of the Task Force never used them. CHAIRPERSON I think you said that you were also in the Security Police? MR WANDRAG No, Mr Chairperson, I was never. CHAIRPERSON Did you have any knowledge of the situation under which the Special Forces would be used by the Security Police? MR WANDRAG No, Mr Chairperson because that was completely on a different level than my responsibility. CHAIRPERSON Good. Did you beforehand think the people would be killed in this operation? MR WANDRAG Well, I expected, according to the information that was available to me, that there could be a resistance to arrest and that it would be possible that violence would be incurred and I was therefore prepared for it Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You cannot say if the right people were confronted and attacked? MR WANDRAG I cannot say that Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wandrag. ADV GCABASHE Mr Wandrag I noticed that you don't mention Mnisi as being one of the party, was he not there when you joined them? MR WANDRAG He wasn't there, I have seen him with them at all. ADV GCABASHE So you don't know him at all? MR WANDRAG I don't, he wasn't there. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, may this witness then be excused and may I then be permitted to call Gen Strydom? CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you Mr Wandrag, you are excused. MR WANDRAG Thank you Mr Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED