amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-11 JOHANNESBURG 7 MARTHINUS BLANCHE STRYDOM AM 4379 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53355&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990511jh.htm MARTHINUS BLANCHE STRYDOM (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Strydom, your amnesty application is in bundle 4 from page 835 up to 843. You are aware of the contents of this amnesty application, is this correct? MR STRYDOM That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you confirm the truth and the correctness of the contents thereof? MR STRYDOM I do confirm it. MR VISSER MR STRYDOM That is true Chairperson. MR VISSER And all incoming and outgoing points on borders will be under your control, is that correct? MR STRYDOM That is correct. MR VISSER You had a look at the background document, Exhibit A, is that correct? MR STRYDOM That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you agree with the contents thereof? MR STRYDOM I do agree. MR VISSER Do you want this to be incorporated? MR STRYDOM Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR VISSER There is also on your behalf ...(indistinct) as amended by General Wandrag to include Special Task Forces members. MR STRYDOM That is also my request. MR VISSER There is a declaration set up from information that you had given. It is Exhibit F, which is currently serving in front of the Committee and herein you ask that Exhibit A must be incorporated, is that correct? MR STRYDOM That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And do you confirm the correctness of the contents of this document, Exhibit F? MR STRYDOM I do confirm this. MR VISSER Can you please inform the Committee, from paragraph 2 please, on page 2. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I'll do this with permission. During 1981 I was a Captain in the South African Police and I was working in the Special Task Force in Pretoria as the Operational Commander. Chairperson, My direct Commander was Lieut. Gen A J Wandrag. He was then Brigadier. Chairperson on a date and I heard this morning that it was stipulated as December 1981, Gen Wandrag called me in and told me that the Security Branch, Eastern Transvaal, asked assistance in an operation. He gave me orders to contact the Security Branch Eastern Transvaal in order to get the full details so that I can give the necessary assistance. MR VISSER Yes, and then you contacted the Security Branch Eastern Transvaal and you got the name of Capt Gert Visser from them , is that correct? MR STRYDOM That is the case Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you then talk to him about the matter? MR STRYDOM Yes, I did Chairperson. MR VISSER And what did this information that you got from him entail? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, it entailed that certain people within Swaziland had to be arrested and had to be brought to the RSA to be interrogated and this had to be done by members of the Security Branch. I was told that the specific persons apparently had been identified as terrorists that had valuable information relating to Security. Chairperson I was then told that there would be - that a meeting had been organised by means of a contact person who was in the RSA with people in the Swaziland and the people who were expected were MK Commanders. I was told by Capt Visser of the Security Branch that the Security Branch places a priority on these people for the interrogation or to eliminate them. Seeing as the people were trained MK Commanders, provision was made that they would probably be heavily armed. Chairperson this was also the reason why the help of my unit was called in, seeing as how our training made, equipped us the best to do these kinds of operations. Chairperson, I'd realised that the SAP had no jurisdiction to arrest anyone in Swaziland and Chairperson this is also the reason why I placed the word arrest in quotation marks in my written amnesty application. I realised that with the word arrest, it is actually meant that those people had to be abducted. I also realised that there existed a very good chance that things could go wrong and that those people then would have to be killed. I accordingly realised that the steps that were planned would be illegal steps and these facts I did communicate to the Task Force members who accompanied me across the border at a later stage. Chairperson, myself and Capt Visser departed to the Swaziland border, close to the Oshoek border post. After dark we went over the border so that we can go and do reconnaissance work of the ...(indistinct). We agreed on a scene where this specific operation would be executed. Captain Visser would identify this place to the contact person so that this meeting could take place there. After Capt Visser departed I, during the same evening, visited this place twice on my own to be able to identify certain things and so that I could get to know the route and the environment and to finalise my planning for the operation. MR VISSER About how far away from the border was this place, if you have to remember. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, approximately a kilometre, maybe a little bit more. I can't remember exactly. MR VISSER But there's of the other people that say it was about 100 metres. MR STRYDOM No, it was definitely further than that and it was a difficult terrain on the way there. The following day a group of approximately 8 to 12 members of the Task Force called me. Chairperson, I just want to mention here that I really cannot remember the number of people, and that is just an estimation. MR VISSER So you cannot exactly remember who was there? MR STRYDOM Some of the members I can remember, but I can't remember all of them. MR VISSER Maybe you must just - oh, you do say that later. Please continue. MR STRYDOM I met the members close to the Oshoek border post and I gave them complete intelligence about this operation. Capt Gert Visser joined me once again and he crossed the border with the group. MR VISSER Was this on the same day, or was this the following day when these events happened? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, ...(intervention) MR VISSER You went along with Gert Visser? MR STRYDOM I accompanied Gert Visser across the border. At night we went back and that same evening I crossed the border twice again and then early in the morning, just before dawn I returned. That evening the Task Force members joined me and the next evening we went in for the operation. MR VISSER So this would then be the 8th, the following day, is that not true? So the 7th you would have gone there the first time and the operation took place on the 8th? MR STRYDOM That is correct, Chairperson, the 8th of December. MR VISSER Good, continue. MR STRYDOM Seeing as the operation would take place in a foreign country, I gave orders that everyone would be, would have Eastern Block weapons. It was the practice that if an operation would be done outside the country then we would use Eastern Block weapons. MR VISSER But the question is why did you do this? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, just so that we could not lose or leave own weaponry if the operation was not successful. MR VISSER Because this would be a reflection on the South African government? MR STRYDOM Yes, that is true Chairperson. At the border there were quite a number of members present. I do not know if I can remember everyone, but I do remember that Gen Wandrag, Gen Viktor, Capt Gert Visser and a couple of other people were present there. As a result of the long time that has gone past since then, I can't remember exactly who the Task Force members were that were involved in this operation. I now understand that it was among others, the following persons, and that would be Messrs Hope, Dirkson, Steenberg and le Roux and also two other members that have died since then and that would be Moolman and Prinsloo. I am not so sure about their precise roles in this operation any more and there could possibly have been more members of the Task Force present. During this specific evening, I led the members of the Task Force across the border and opposite the place where the suspected terrorist would arrive in a motor car and they would stop, we took in our place. The order was to overwhelm them there and bring them back physically across the border to the RSA. As planned, the vehicle came closer but it parked at the wrong place and outside of our reach. After a few minutes the vehicle turned around and it drove away. I immediately withdrew the members under my command and I went back to the RSA from where we went back to Pretoria. Chairperson shortly after this a vehicle approached us from behind and stopped us. It was a member of the Security Branch, Eastern Transvaal and he informed us that, on request of Gen Wandrag, we had to turn around so that we can try again to execute this operation successfully. Back at the border Gen Wandrag informed me that it was organised that the terrorist would again visit the rendezvous point during the same evening. I can remember Chairperson that the General asked if there would be enough time that evening and I said there would be. Myself and the members of the Task Force then crossed the border for a second time. I led the leaders and I gave them their positions at the rendezvous point of the planned operation with certain amendments so that we could cover a wider area this time. The vehicle approached us again and once again did not stop at the right place. This time it was a lot closer than the first time, however. I gave the necessary signal that the members should go and attack the people sitting in the car and I suspect that the people sitting in the car heard something when we moved closer because I heard someone shouting in the vehicle, in a Black language and I could hear that an automatic weapon was being cocked in the vehicle. MR VISSER I see. You say that you could hear how an automatic weapon was being cocked, so that does differ somewhat from the typing that appears here. MR STRYDOM Pardon Chairperson, automatic weapons in the vehicle, that is what appears in front of me. MR VISSER Yes, but what was the position? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, it is very long ago. I really cannot put my, stick my neck out about whether it was one or more automatic weapons. The sound I could hear very clearly but whether it was one or more, I really cannot say. MR VISSER I just want to refer you to your application. I'm just looking for the place but I believe that you also referred in your application to automatic weapons in the plural. Yes, it's on page 838, Mr Chairperson, the 2nd paragraph which starts with the words "I suspect that the people sitting inside the car heard something" and he says that "we could hear how automatic weapons were being cocked in the vehicle." But you say that today you cannot say or you cannot remember if it was one or more, but you can remember that you heard at least a weapon being cocked? MR STRYDOM That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Please continue. Paragraph 22. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, seeing as at that stage we had no cover and the members were very close to the vehicle, I gave the command that the vehicle should be fired at. MR VISSER What did you think would then happen? MR STRYDOM I did not doubt, Chairperson, that we would be fired upon from the weapon and they would fire at us. This order was executed by the members closest to the vehicle. Myself, Mr Steenberg and Hope did, to my knowledge, shoot at the vehicle. I can't remember how many shots I fired. MR VISSER What rifle did you have? MR STRYDOM I was carrying an AK47 Chairperson. The vehicle caught fire and we moved closer but the fire was so hot that the heat drove us back. We could not reach the vehicle. Accordingly I withdrew all the members and we moved back to the RSA. The vehicle was destroyed by the fire and later I heard that two people had been killed in this action. MR VISSER All this information is stuff that you had heard later? MR STRYDOM That is positive Chairperson. I accept it in this way Chairperson and I also accept that they were MK George and MK Brown. Unfortunately I do not have more specific details about the identity of the people or other information. At the border I made a situation report to Gen Wandrag to the effect that the operation was a failure. I then went back to Pretoria. The main aim was to try and abduct the people or persons in the vehicle and not to eliminate them. If the last was our aim, we would have done it when the vehicle had stopped the first time. In the light of the available information with regards to the terrorist and also the situation at the scene, I had no doubt that the lives of myself and the relevant Task Force members were in danger in that in all probability we would be fired upon from the vehicle. I had no other alternative than to give the order that the vehicle had to be fired upon. Chairperson with this I do not want to try and admit that our behaviour was regular. The whole operation was, according to me, irregular and illegal, but it was done in a time in which the Security Forces found themselves in a war situation against supporters of the liberation movements. The specific people were also military Commanders and operatives. What I did I did to stop the revolutionary onslaught. I believed that my behaviour was justified and morally correct. I believed bona fide that my steps had fallen within the ambit of my duties as a member of the Security Forces. I don't want to use loose language, these are my words. MR VISSER The Task Force, can it also be used as part of the Security Forces? MR STRYDOM Definitely, we were part of the South African Police. MR VISSER Good. MR STRYDOM And that it was something that was related with such forces and competencies. I took these steps in the execution of an order and with the authorisation of the South African Police or the previous government but for the National Party whose interests had to be promoted and protected thereby. What I did I did in the execution of my official duties and as a result of an order of a higher officer as a part to opposing the struggle and it was aimed against the supporters of liberation movements. I humbly ask that amnesty be given to me for my deeds and omissions in this regard. MR VISSER Mr Strydom, Mr Moolman and Mr Prinsloo are both deceased. MR STRYDOM That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER They were members who served under your command on that evening? MR STRYDOM That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER As far as you can remember, did they execute orders that you had given to them? MR STRYDOM No one did anything there Chairperson, that did not do anything on my order. MR VISSER And they were aware of who these people were who were - that you were to abduct and what their status in the MK was? MR STRYDOM That is correct, Chairperson. The only thing that we were really interested in was the level of training of these people and if it was really identified terrorists. The finer detail was not given to us by the Security Branch in relation to the people's names and other details. MR VISSER And when you gave the Task Force members the task after they arrived at the border post, did you give them this information that you have testified about today to them? MR STRYDOM I gave them all the information that was given to me by the Security Branch. MR VISSER So they would have known that it was steps during a struggle aimed against supporters of a liberation movement? MR STRYDOM Absolutely Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Mr Strydom, at that stage Mr Gert Visser was your subordinate, is that correct? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, we had the same rank. Mr Visser was with the Security Branch and I was at the Task Force but I think he was my junior with a year or so. MR PRINSLOO And this specific place where this vehicle stopped for the first time, on the other side of the border, did it stop at the same place for the second time? MR STRYDOM No, Chairperson, the second time it stopped a little closer to us and not at the same place as the first time. MR PRINSLOO But it was a short distance difference? MR STRYDOM Yes, it was a short difference. MR PRINSLOO And the second time you situated yourself at a different place? MR STRYDOM That is correct, yes. MR PRINSLOO And the place that you investigated, this was the place that Mr Visser gave you? MR STRYDOM That is correct. MR PRINSLOO So he had this knowledge that he had gathered? MR STRYDOM I accepted it like that Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS VAN DER WALT No questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, any questions? MS THABETHE Yes Mr Chair, Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE At paragraph 4 of your statement you mentioned that you were with other Task members. No it's not paragraph 4. Anyway somewhere in your evidence I must have missed the paragraph number, you mentioned that you were with other Task Force members. Who were they? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, these are the names as I had given them to you, that I can remember, the two deceased members, and also Messrs Hope, Dirkson, le Roux and Steenberg. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom, your unit was independent of the Security Police. MR STRYDOM Indeed Chairperson. We were members of the uniformed branch of the South African Police. These are the people who maintain law and order, the uniformed persons. CHAIRPERSON These are the policemen who the public see as the police officers? MR STRYDOM Yes, we resorted under the uniformed branch but we did not wear any uniforms, we wore camouflage. CHAIRPERSON It's a camouflage uniform? MR STRYDOM That's positive, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON This was an unlawful story, do you concede? MR STRYDOM I do, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What did you think of this whole business? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, we were involved in a war and we would have executed an order, it did not matter what the order was. CHAIRPERSON In what war were you involved in as part of the uniformed branch? MR STRYDOM The onslaught against South Africa was not also against the Security Forces, it was against the whole South Africa and we were part of it. CHAIRPERSON Did you act as a person of South Africa? MR STRYDOM No Chair, Sir I acted as a member of the Special Task Force. CHAIRPERSON But your status as a resident of this country? MR STRYDOM Chairperson this is my country, I had to do whatever I had to do. CHAIRPERSON So you saw your duties on two levels, you had a duty as a uniformed police officer and you had a duty as an inhabitant of the country? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, what I had done, I had purely done as a serving member of a Task Force and as a member of the South African Police and I saw this as my duty. CHAIRPERSON So you just executed an order. You did not think to yourself, listen this is part of the war, it is my duty, despite the order? MR STRYDOM It is my duty as part of this war to become involved. I definitely saw it as my duty as a civilian, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And did you deem it as just in your capacity as a civilian? MR STRYDOM That is a very difficult question to answer Chairperson. The action I had executed, I executed because of the fact that I was a serving Task Force member in the South African Police who received an official duty to execute an operation. CHAIRPERSON Because I would put it to you that if I understand you correctly, this Task Force of yours is a unit of the police who was used in a broad sense, this was not a covert type of unit. MR STRYDOM No, Chairperson, it is not. CHAIRPERSON And it is not the type of unit, as we understood the situation, who would be involved in any unlawful acts. At Silverton you went and took out those bank robbers. This is the type of thing that you did, do I understand you correctly? You were not as members of the Security Police who participated in this process who one could say they were almost in a situation where they were regarded as soldiers. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, we were serving members, as I have repeatedly said, and the problems of the South African Police Force were our problems. We would have acted wherever we received an instruction to act. But it is correct, what you do say indeed, that we were more in a policing role. We were not specifically used for this type of operation. CHAIRPERSON These were illegal actions. Did it not matter to you with the position that you occupied at that moment, let us say that in the absence of a better word, a normal policeman, your standard police officer? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I don't know how to react to that question. I can just repeat that the instruction which we received, we would have executed and I think it has to be seem in the time period of that time. CHAIRPERSON Did you think that this whole story was justified? MR STRYDOM Yes, Chairperson, my unit would have executed this operation even if we had to swim to Russia to execute this operation. This is how convinced we were. But we did not question any orders, we did what we were told to do. CHAIRPERSON Was it the first time that your unit had to undertake such an operation? MR STRYDOM That is true Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON That you had to leave the country in the middle of the night? MR STRYDOM Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were your members trained for this type of situation? MR STRYDOM The members had a high level of training and night operations were one of our specialities, but this was within the borders and external operations were alien to us. CHAIRPERSON Because you say you fired on the vehicle and it caught alight? MR STRYDOM Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you fire many rounds at the vehicle? MR STRYDOM I can explain the fire as follows. Because you cannot see your bullets, because you load your magazine differently so that one can see a little light and we put tracer bullets in the magazine so when you fire there is a dazzling effect, there is a little line, a little dotted line that follows so that one could see where the bullet is actually going. CHAIRPERSON What did you call it, a tracer bullet? MR STRYDOM That's correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So do you think that this is what caused the fire? MR STRYDOM Undoubtedly Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It is not that men were in an alien situation and that they acted out of the ordinary? MR STRYDOM No, Chairperson, the unit did not act out of the ordinary. CHAIRPERSON The other members you have mentioned, Hope, who are these persons? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, they were serving members of the Task Force at that stage and in all probability they were the section who were on duty whom I called in from Pretoria. CHAIRPERSON I do not have these names directly before me, is this in your application? MR STRYDOM No Chairperson. I referred to the brief submission. They are here, they are all applicants, Chairperson. MR VISSER They're applicants, Chairperson. On your list you'll see Mr Hope, Mr le Roux, Dirkson and Steenberg, they're my clients, yes. CHAIRPERSON Then that problem is sorted out. ADV GCABASHE One question again. You didn't go in with Mr Mnisi? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, the name Mnisi and the other names, I heard for the first time when we applied for this amnesty. I did not have that information to my availability , I did not know those persons. ADV GCABASHE The reason I ask is, you know, I wonder how you could be certain that the vehicle that stopped at that particular spot was the vehicle you were targeting? This is the reason I ask. I though maybe Mnisi had gone with you to be able to identify at least the vehicle or the frames of the people in it. How were you able to determine that that is the vehicle? MR STRYDOM Chairperson if I recall correctly, we had a description of the vehicle. I cannot recall what type of vehicle it was. I know it was a Sedan, it was not a large vehicle and it was a light coloured vehicle, but the fact that it was at that time of the evening at such a remote place and that the second time it came to stop at that specific place, it left no doubt with me that this was the target indeed. ADV GCABASHE Was that exactly the same vehicle that had been there the first time? MR STRYDOM Yes, Chairperson, it was the same vehicle. ADV GCABASHE And just tell me, after the first incident when the vehicle came and you decided it was too far away to do anything, you decided to drive back to Pretoria? MR STRYDOM That was the instructions that I had and that was the decision we took, Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Now how far were you when you were stopped by Gen ...(indistinct)? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, a couple of kilometres outside the border post, I cannot tell you how far. ADV GCABASHE So it's not that you were racing back, they were actually able to come and catch up with you? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, you have to understand that these vehicles were hidden in the veld. We returned on foot from Swaziland. We had to move to the vehicles. Persons had to secure all their weapons and we had to climb into the vehicles. We had to make sure that we had not left anything behind, so there was some time until we departed, so these persons had enough time to catch up with us. ADV GCABASHE I might have missed this, at what stage did you communicate that you had not been successful at dealing with these people the first time? At what stage and to whom did you communicate? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, the point where Gen Wandrag was, was at the border post itself and we were quite a way from there at the border. While my members were preparing to move back to Pretoria, I went to Gen Wandrag and reported the situation to him and I returned to the vehicles to return with my members to Pretoria. ADV GCABASHE And in that time he had enough time to find out that Mnisi was actually making a second telephone call, to drive and catch up with you and ask you to go back and try again. There was enough time? MR STRYDOM I must make the inference that it was quite some time Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Chair. ADV DE JAGER It was put to you that you were not a member of the Security Police and were not directly involved with the war as such, if we could call it that. Do you recall that? MR STRYDOM Indeed, Chairperson. It was put to me. ADV DE JAGER You are also aware that there were attacks on police officers? MR STRYDOM I am aware of it Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER As well as attacks on police officers and their houses, black police officers specifically. Was any distinction made by the attackers, whether you were a normal police officer or a security officer or a municipal officer? MR STRYDOM Not at all, Chairperson. As far as we were concerned they did not even distinguish between us and civilians, they attacked anyone. So from our side there was no distinction. ADV DE JAGER Were you convinced that you would be a target? MR STRYDOM I was convinced chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Perhaps just one aspect which arose from what Commissioner Gcabashe asked. I just would like to know, you say that the border post is at this point and then operation was executed somewhere within Swaziland in, if you have the image before you and the fence is there, the border fence, as you've moved the kilometre which you speak of, is this along the fence or is it perpendicular into Swaziland? MR STRYDOM Chairperson when one approaches the border post from the South African point it was approximately a kilometre in the direction of Waverly border post. MR VISSER But how far from the fence was this incident? MR STRYDOM I would say a kilometre. MR VISSER Still a kilometre. MR STRYDOM About a kilometre from the border post along the fence and inwards into Swaziland. MR VISSER Well that gives us clarity, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom you are excused. MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes, in fact I have to attend to something which would more than likely affect yourself and Mr Wagener, so I have to get in touch with our other colleagues. I would only be able to give an indication as to what would happen in the rest of this matter once we've done that so I'm going to ask for it just to stand down for a minute until I've sorted this out. We'll stand down. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS