amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-12 JOHANNESBURG 8 D J STEENBERG AM 4374 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53358&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990512jh.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Visser, I think it is back to you. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson, I call Mr Steenberg. Chairperson, for the last four witnesses, unfortunately we don't have statements to place before you, I do apologise for that, but believe me if I had the time, I would have done that. (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Steenberg, you are an applicant for amnesty for an operation that was executed across the Swaziland border which we know happened on the 8th of December 1981, is that correct? MR STEENBERG That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Your application appears in Bundle 4, page 822 to 834, is that correct? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Apart from what we will discuss here in evidence, do you confirm the correctness of the contents of your application? MR STEENBERG I do, Chairperson. MR VISSER Paragraph 7(a) and 7(b), you had written there where you were asked whether you were a supporter of a political organisation and to name the organisation and in which capacity you were a supporter, you said "not applicable", what is the precise situation there? MR STEENBERG Chairperson, I was a member of the Security Forces and the South African Police and from this I was a-political, that I was not an active member of any political party, but indeed of the Police Force and as such the government of the day and this was the National Party. MR VISSER So paragraph 7(a) must read National Party and (b) should read supporter? MR STEENBERG That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER You have studied Exhibit A which serves before the Committee, is that correct? MR STEENBERG That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Have you studied it carefully? MR STEENBERG Yes, I have Chairperson. MR VISSER Are there any parts thereof that you believe is not applicable to you except for the reference to Lesotho and Botswana? MR STEENBERG Where I was never in these countries, I reconcile myself with this Exhibit. MR VISSER You request that the evidence therein be incorporated with your evidence? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Where you mention your Police career, you have set it out there, were you ever a member of the Security Branch? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And when was this? MR STEENBERG This was before 1997, between 1986 and 1997 and then after 1987 I was a member of the Security Branch. MR VISSER And then you were based at Soweto? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER During this incident, were you attached to the Task Force? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER What was the purpose and the activities of the Special Task Force of the Police? MR STEENBERG Chairperson we were trained to execute high risk operations, hostage situations, rescue situations, the finding of bodies in dams and such. MR VISSER So you were required to be very fit? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And if we refer to operations which involved arrests, they had you for these? MR STEENBERG Chairperson, I think because of the fact that we were trained, as I - how can I say - to move quickly, move quietly and the fitness level, and I mean because we know each other and at times when sensitive arrests had to be executed or where there was a high risk, we were possibly the best choice and we are still the best choice. MR VISSER You do not serve in the Police Force any more? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER You have heard the evidence of Gen Strydom? MR STEENBERG I have Chairperson. MR VISSER In so far as it affects you, do you concur with his evidence? MR STEENBERG Yes, I do Chairperson. MR VISSER Can we then arrive at the day of the incident? Can you recall, or can I ask in this way, was there any reason why you personally were sent to the Eastern Transvaal? MR STEENBERG Chairperson, if I can recall correctly, I was part of the support group during that time. MR VISSER And the other members who accompanied you? MR STEENBERG Yes, they would have accompanied me as a standby group. MR VISSER And then as I understand it, you received an order to move to the Eastern Transvaal? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. This was a type of scramble order. MR VISSER What do you mean by that? MR STEENBERG A scramble is a matter of that one carries out your order as quickly as possible and then that you move to the place where you were called to or where you were sent to. MR VISSER Very well, but how would you know what type of weapons and clothing you could take? MR STEENBERG We would receive such an order from the Commander and he would inform us as to what type of weaponry and clothing and such we had to take with, whether it was a day operation or a night operation or whatever the nature of it would be. MR VISSER If your Commander wanted you to wear camouflage, what would he have told you? MR STEENBERG He would have said "listen, take along camouflage" and then we would have worn this. MR VISSER And the weapons, with regard to weapons if he wanted you to take weapons which could not be traced back, Eastern Block weapons, very well. You received your instructions from whom on this particular day? MR STEENBERG I cannot recall exactly from whom we received the instruction, but it came from General Strydom, Captain Strydom at that time. MR VISSER And then you left for the Eastern Transvaal and how did you travel there? MR STEENBERG Chairperson, it was a small bus or two, I cannot recall correctly. MR VISSER And when you arrived at the border, was it still light or was it dark already? MR STEENBERG If I can recall correctly, it was dark. MR VISSER Did you meet Strydom there? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Were you at the border post with the other members of the Security Branch who were present there? MR STEENBERG No, not at all Chairperson, we were at a different location. MR VISSER Did you receive the information there? MR STEENBERG That is so Chairperson. MR VISSER What did this information entail? MR STEENBERG It was conveyed to us that a vehicle would come to a rendezvous point in Swaziland. MR VISSER Was this vehicle described to you? MR STEENBERG Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER By means of colour and model and so forth? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson and that in the vehicle, the occupants would be two trained terrorists whom we had to apprehend, but it was also said to us that if these persons would resist and put our lives in any danger, and then we had to eliminate them. MR VISSER So the first priority was to arrest them and if not possible, eliminate? MR STEENBERG Definitely Chairperson. MR VISSER Did all of you move into Swaziland? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER What is your recollection as to how far did you move into Swaziland? MR STEENBERG If I recall correctly Chairperson, I would reconcile myself with what Commissioner Strydom had said and we moved about a kilometre into Swaziland, into the territory. MR VISSER I understand that this was a gravel road where you waited for this vehicle? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER You did not move through the border during the normal, legal means? MR STEENBERG No Chairperson, we crossed over the fence. MR VISSER The persons who accompanied there, do you recall who they were or some of them? MR STEENBERG Chairperson, it was Commissioner Strydom and Mr Visser, Gert Visser was also part of the group, Danie le Roux, Dercksen as well as Hope, Moolman, I can specifically remember them and I don't know if I mentioned his name, but Hope. MR VISSER Yes, you have mentioned Hope. Do you recall if the deceased Prinsloo was there? MR STEENBERG That is correct, he was also there. MR VISSER There may have been other members whom you cannot recall? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Because there were apparently between eight and twelve of your Task Force members? MR STEENBERG It was closer to eight, but it could be more Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER I understand that he confirms the evidence of the others and he confirms his application, maybe it is not necessary or we could ask some questions when we would want some more information, but if you feel that you have to give us all the details ... MR VISSER Chairperson, this is just in regard to questions that has been asked beforehand and which is why I thought that I have to go into more detail with this witness, but if you are satisfied, then I could go much quicker. Thank you Chairperson. You then moved through the bush and you arrived at some place where this road was? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER What happened there? MR STEENBERG We hid ourselves there and we waited for the vehicle to arrive. The vehicle arrived, I cannot recall how long afterwards. It stopped some distance from us, so that it was impossible for us to approach the vehicle properly and to execute the arrest and thereafter the vehicle departed and we withdrew. MR VISSER If I understand correctly, you did nothing, you just remained hidden? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Was there any specific plan as to who should do what at the scene? MR STEENBERG Chairperson, it would be impossible to do this because one did not know where exactly you would hide yourself in terms of where the vehicle stopped and therefore in other words, we decided that the persons closer to the vehicle, if they were close enough, they would approach the vehicle and execute the arrest. So it was impossible to determine who would do what beforehand? MR VISSER And the location, was it a place which was identified to you by or Strydom or Visser or both of them? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER It is not that you had to search for this place? MR STEENBERG No Chairperson, we went straight to this location. MR VISSER When you saw the vehicle leaving and then we know that you returned back, across the border, you climbed into your vehicles and you returned to Pretoria? MR STEENBERG Yes Chairperson, we returned to Pretoria. MR VISSER Then we know that the vehicles were caught up with and you were stopped and you were told to return? MR STEENBERG That is quite correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And then a second time, you returned to the same location? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson, there were just some amendments as to how we positioned ourselves, which was over a broad area because of the fact that we saw that it was impossible to say that the vehicle would stop here exactly and therefore we covered a larger area and we amended our positions somewhat. MR VISSER And the vehicle came there? MR STEENBERG Yes, the same vehicle arrived there. MR VISSER Can you recall the make of that vehicle? MR STEENBERG If I recall correctly, it was a blue Golf 1. At that stage the Citi Golf was not yet in circulation, but I may be incorrect, but I think I am correct when I say it was a blue Golf or I say Citi Golf, but it was a light Golf Mark 1. MR VISSER That is correct, a Golf. Where did it come to a stop this time? MR STEENBERG A little closer than the previous instance. MR VISSER Yes, but this time you were covering a more wider area? MR STEENBERG That is correct. MR VISSER What happened then when the vehicle stopped? MR STEENBERG When he switched off the lights and we started moving closer but what I can think is that he must have suspected something. There was this loud, I wouldn't say a loud shouting, but there was this shout and some weapon was cocked and the shooting ensued. MR VISSER Who cocked the weapons, one of you? MR STEENBERG No, our weapons were already cocked because one does not go into such a situation without your weapon being cocked. MR VISSER The cocking of the weapon, the sound came from the direction of the vehicle, so you said that you started moving? MR STEENBERG Yes, we started moving to get closer to the vehicle to execute the arrest. MR VISSER So you moved closer to the vehicle? MR STEENBERG That is correct. MR VISSER You were there, do you think it is possible that one or both of these persons in the vehicle, could have seen you? MR STEENBERG It is difficult to say but I suspect that they must have seen something or must have heard something and became suspicious. MR VISSER Very well, Mr Visser says that he heard you moving, maybe the persons in the vehicle also heard you, but whatever the case may be, we will not speculate. When you heard this weapon being cocked, how long thereafter did the command come to open fire? MR STEENBERG It was basically immediately because I believe that our lives were endangered at that stage, because we did not know whether these persons had seen us or whatever the position would be. So in other words to me this element of surprise was not on our side any more and we had lost that edge. MR VISSER So the surprise element had been lost and you were convinced at that stage? MR STEENBERG Yes, I was Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you know which weapons they might have had in the vehicle? MR STEENBERG No, I don't believe so, but if one looks at the normal weaponry that we find at trained persons, it could be anything but whether it was handweapons or automatic firearms, the danger was still there that one of us could die. MR VISSER Where exactly when one has regard for where the car stopped the first time, with regard to the front or the back or left or right, where were you exactly? MR STEENBERG If one, how can I say, if one looks from the driver's side of the vehicle, I was on the right front of the vehicle. MR VISSER Can you recall where the other members were? MR STEENBERG I just know that Mr Hope was to the left of me and Mr Strydom was also on my left, but further left. MR VISSER Yes, further left. How far were you from the vehicle when it stopped? MR STEENBERG If I have to say it was approximately between 15 to 20 metres. MR VISSER And this was the area which you had to cover to get to the vehicle if there was an arrest? MR STEENBERG That is correct. MR VISSER Did you move forward already? MR STEENBERG Well, we started moving forward. MR VISSER Yourself? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And when the command came to open fire or whatever you say when you want your people to fire, did you open fire? MR STEENBERG Yes, I did Chairperson, I opened fire. MR VISSER On the vehicle? MR STEENBERG Yes, on the occupants of the vehicle and the vehicle itself. MR VISSER According to you it is possible that you might have hit some of them? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER What had happened to the vehicle then? MR STEENBERG Because of the tracer bullets which we used, the vehicle caught alight. The fire within a vehicle is quite intense and the intensity reaches a quite high intensity, in other words we could not get to the vehicle in time to rescue anybody from the vehicle and the vehicle burnt. MR VISSER You are saying that the tracer bullets set the vehicle alight at such, in such a manner that the vehicle started burning seriously very quickly? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER When you realised this, what did you do then? MR STEENBERG We withdrew. MR VISSER So you withdrew and you went home? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER If you wanted to eliminate these persons, what would you have done then? MR STEENBERG Chairperson, it is my judgement that the first time when that vehicle had stopped, it was easy to fire from a distance and to shoot the persons in the vehicle. I mean we would have shot at it or attacked it the first time. MR VISSER And in any case if you wanted to shoot at them, you would have moved closer? MR STEENBERG No Chairperson, we were close enough to fire on the vehicle. It would have not served any purpose if you wanted to move closer to fire on the vehicle? MR VISSER With regard to you, you apply for amnesty for the illegal crossing of the border and your participation in the attempted abduction and the killing of these persons, is that correct? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And you yourself have no other information with regard to the identity of these persons, you acted on information which you received via Captain Strydom, which he received from the Security Branch? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER When you went in you knew that the possibility existed that these people would resist and that circumstances would arise that a shooting would take place? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you also realise that it is possible that persons, not only your own people, but the other person or persons could be killed? MR STEENBERG Definitely Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you reconcile yourself with that? MR STEENBERG Yes, I did Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson, that is the evidence of this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Visser. Mr Prinsloo, any questions? MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Mrs Van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Just two Mr Chair, thank you. Mr Steenberg, you have testified that you are applying for attempted abduction, in your own words how can you say you attempted to abduct these people before you actually shot at them? MR STEENBERG Because we went to arrest these people and I think that the arrest if I can put it as such, was not a legal arrest, because it was to be executed on another country's territory and therefore I see it as an abduction in the correct terminology. MS THABETHE My last question is what would you say gave rise to you shooting the victims instead of arresting them? What gave rise to that change of plan so to say? MR STEENBERG Because we heard the weapon being cocked and then we thought that a shooting would ensue and that shots would be fired on members of the group, that is why we opened fire. MS THABETHE I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Ms Thabethe. Where you took up your position, were you hidden? MR STEENBERG In the grass, yes. CHAIRPERSON So you were either hunched down or you were laying down? MR STEENBERG I was laying down. CHAIRPERSON So one could not see you so easily? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You say when the vehicle stopped and they switched off the lights ... MR STEENBERG And I moved forward in a hunched position, on my haunches. CHAIRPERSON How did you move forward? MR STEENBERG I was on my haunches, in a haunched position. CHAIRPERSON So one or two movements forward? MR STEENBERG It is difficult to describe it, but if one has to say that it is a type of bent down and crawl closer. CHAIRPERSON Did you receive an order? MR STEENBERG Chairperson, there could be no order because otherwise - not a verbal command. CHAIRPERSON How did you know what to do? MR STEENBERG I mean, I cannot say it is part of the training, but it is part of our attitude towards each other that I saw that this was the time to move forward now and to approach the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON What plan did you have MR STEENBERG I don't understand the question Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What would you do there at the scene? MR STEENBERG We would have approached the vehicle, opened the doors and if the doors were locked, we would have broken the windows and we would have grabbed the persons within the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON How would you go about doing all of this? There were no signs, no agreed sign or Mr Strydom did not tell you what to do at what stage, you just knew that you would approach the vehicle? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson, by nature of the situation it is very difficult to say beforehand that, I mean, how can I say, to give a specific sign in terms of a verbal sign, it is just not done. When the vehicle's lights were turned off, I realised that now we must move closer. CHAIRPERSON Did Strydom not tell you "look at me", he did not say anything like that? MR STEENBERG I mean Chairperson, it was dark, we could not see him. CHAIRPERSON So you had absolutely no idea as to who would do what to initiate this process? MR STEENBERG Chairperson, the persons closer to the vehicle, that was the plan, that the persons closer to the vehicle would start approaching the vehicle as soon as it stopped. CHAIRPERSON So at some stage you decided that very well, you will move closer? MR STEENBERG No, it is not at some stage, this is shortly after the lights were switched off and we decided to move closer. CHAIRPERSON But nobody told you to move closer, nobody gave you any sign, you decided that I will move closer? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And then you approached, how many of you? MR STEENBERG This was in the process of moving closer, I would not say very much closer, it is possible about three or four metres that I have moved forward. I cannot precisely recall at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Is this afterwards, after you moved the three or four metres that you heard the voice? MR STEENBERG I was in the process of starting to move closer, when I heard this voice and I heard this weapon being cocked. CHAIRPERSON Oh, so you started? You were not really moving closer? MR STEENBERG It is difficult to say Chairperson, whether I started moving or whether I moved closer, how can I say that was about two metres, three metres I started moving closer, in a reasonably hunched position to get closer to the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON So you moved and then you heard this voice? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And then you heard the weapon? MR STEENBERG Yes, I heard the weapon being cocked. CHAIRPERSON And then, what did you do then? MR STEENBERG Shots were fired from my left hand side and then I assumed or, but, I mean this was Mr Strydom ... CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom had started shooting and you started shooting, so you heard some shots being fired and then you also opened fire, there was no command to open fire? MR STEENBERG No Chairperson. Well, there could have been a command, but the surprise element, but I cannot specifically recall it. If I recall correctly then I went upon the shots that were fired from my left hand side. CHAIRPERSON So in other words there was no command? MR STEENBERG I cannot recall it now, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So what is your evidence actually about this aspect of the order? MR STEENBERG I cannot remember it Mr Chairperson, that there was a real verbal order, that Mr Strydom would have said "fire". I mean if I have to say now, then my evidence now is that I went on the shots that emanated from my left hand side. CHAIRPERSON That is what you remember now, you don't remember anything else, no order? MR STEENBERG I cannot remember an order now, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So based on what you are saying to us now, you shot based on shots that were fired on your left hand side? MR STEENBERG Yes, basically that was a sign if I can put it that way and I acted upon this. CHAIRPERSON And if it weren't for these shots, then you would not have shot personally? MR STEENBERG That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Were there shots fired at you from the vehicle? MR STEENBERG Not as far as I can say Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Could you see into the vehicle? MR STEENBERG It was dark. After the vehicle had started to burn, I think I can say yes, but not beforehand. CHAIRPERSON What did you see then? MR STEENBERG If I can remember now then I can say that there were two people occupying the vehicle. As a result of the fire, I can now say that according to me, there were two people occupying the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Could there have been more? MR STEENBERG I saw two. Unless someone was laying down or something of that matter, I cannot say that there were more people, I can only say that there were two. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Are there any other questions from the panel? ADV GCABASHE Just one Mr Chairman, the people in the car were trying to get out of it, they were screaming as you observed the car burn? MR STEENBERG No, I did not see something of that nature. ADV GCABASHE What did you see, you know watching the car as it burnt? MR STEENBERG I saw two people in the vehicle, according to me they were hit by the fire, the firearm's fire and according to me, there were no attempts by them to get out of the vehicle. ADV GCABASHE So there was no movement in fact in the vehicle at all? MR STEENBERG No, not discernible movement, no. ADV GCABASHE Tell me, the first time the car came, when you aborted the mission, did they switch off their lights as well then? MR STEENBERG Yes, yes, they did. They waited around a few minutes, whereafter they left. I cannot say how long they were there unfortunately because you know, time ... ADV GCABASHE But on that occasion, you did not start moving forward to try and get closer? MR STEENBERG No, because they were too far. ADV GCABASHE Had you been told that the car must be at a particular place before you start moving forward? MR STEENBERG No, I think what, no, no, that wasn't it, but according to each and everyone's own how can I say, perception, the vehicle was too far to attempt to move forward and according to me, there might have been, you know the people might have seen one in the attempt. ADV GCABASHE And there was just grass in the area, flat land, no rocks, no trees, it is just a flat area? MR STEENBERG If I remember correctly, it was grass land with sort of low, very low bushes. How can I say a type of a shrubbery type situation. ADV GCABASHE Do you recall how long it took you to come back on the second occasion, were you away about an hour, were you away about two hours? Just a rough recollection? MR STEENBERG Chairperson, that is very difficult to recall because really, no, I cannot recall, because we took some time walking out, we packed our stuff into the vehicles, eventually I think that Mr Strydom went and, I can't remember, but I think he went and reported the fact that we have returned and that we are going to Pretoria and thereafter we started to drive. It might have been that we were on the road for 20 minutes or so, I really cannot, it is very difficult. ADV GCABASHE You are just estimating? MR STEENBERG Yes, it is very difficult to make an estimation on that. ADV GCABASHE And from the planning side, what you had been told about these two persons, they were essentially be coming from one of the major towns, you have no clue as to where they were coming from? MR STEENBERG No, no, unfortunately no. ADV GCABASHE Nothing? MR STEENBERG I do not have any clue. ADV GCABASHE Any detail? Thank you, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV DE JAGER You were a well practised Unit? MR STEENBERG That is correct Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Did you practice together, did you know how you reacted with one another, if one person does something another person does something else or how did you practise this in? MR STEENBERG Mr Chairperson, I think at the time of the training it is very intensive training and we work together and we practice together every day and it is as Mr De Jager says, Mr Chairperson, we knew one another very, very well. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination Mr Visser? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. In this whole matter, would it be correct to say that you were just acting on orders? MR STEENBERG That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER I am not specifically talking about when you fired shots, but in general, to go there, to take part in this project and everything like that, you were told to do that and you did that? MR STEENBERG That is absolutely correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you believe that what you did was in the interest of the country? MR STEENBERG Absolutely Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER In which aspect? MR STEENBERG To be able to take preventative action, because if we could arrest the people, then as the other witnesses said, then they could be interrogated so that other steps could be prevented and so that we could then prevent loss of life. MR VISSER Steps in the revolutionary onslaught? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr De Jager questioned you about this, but I just want to ask you, in your group who were there at the time, did you previously have steps in which you participated, steps of any nature where you got to know each other? MR STEENBERG Yes, a lot. MR VISSER And was that also part of your specialist training that you do not wait for orders, your training was of such a nature that you knew how to act on situations? MR STEENBERG That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER ADV DE JAGER Flowing from this, in such a situation where no order is given or no verbal order is given, would you shoot before your Commander shot? MR STEENBERG It depends because due to the nature of it, it depends on the situation. If it was of such a nature that I am the person closest to the vehicle then the first shots would quite possibly have come from me. I think that one would have shot if our own lives were in danger and if I had been the closest to the vehicle. ADV DE JAGER Would you not normally wait for the General to shoot or the Commander to shoot first or for them to give the sign to shoot? MR STEENBERG It is impossible to do that in such a situation because due to the nature of the matter, the General might not be in a position to make such a decision or to say "good, my people's lives are now in danger", or whatever the case may be, it is impossible and in this case, according to me, it was such a matter and it is not like this in every case. It can't be like this in every case. ADV DE JAGER But you did not fire first in any case? MR STEENBERG No, I did not fire first. CHAIRPERSON You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED