amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-12 JOHANNESBURG 8 ADRIAAN JOHANNES DERCKSEN AM 7235 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53359&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990512jh.htm MR VISSER Chairperson, the next witness is Mr Dercksen, his amnesty application is in Bundle 4, page 796. ADRIAAN JOHANNES DERCKSEN (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Dercksen, you are an applicant for amnesty ... (tape ends) ... and you were also one of the people who took part in the action on the evening of the 8th of December 1981 in Swaziland, is that correct? MR DERCKSEN That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER You filled in an application form with the Amnesty Committee where you ask for amnesty, which appears in Bundle 4, from page 796 to 801? MR DERCKSEN That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you confirm the correctness of this? MR DERCKSEN I do. MR VISSER In your application form you said on page 796 in paragraph 7(a) and 7(b) that you were not a supporter or whatever the case may be, of any political party, is that correct? MR DERCKSEN I said that Mr Chairperson, but I do reconcile myself with the point that you had made with the previous witness. MR VISSER Were you also then a supporter of the National Party? MR DERCKSEN That is correct. MR VISSER Would you have an outline of your history, were you ever a member of the Security Branch? MR DERCKSEN No, I was never a member of the Security Branch. MR VISSER In 1981 were you then a member of the Special Task Force? MR DERCKSEN That is correct. MR VISSER What was your rank at that stage? MR DERCKSEN I think I was then a Sergeant. MR VISSER Did you listen to the evidence of Mr Steenberg that you were a support group, do you agree with this? MR DERCKSEN I accept that that is the case. MR VISSER Can you not remember what happened on the day, if you were on standby or how it happened? MR DERCKSEN I cannot remember exactly. MR VISSER Whatever the case may be, you received orders that emanated from the then Captain Strydom and then you went to the Eastern Transvaal, the Oshoek border post? MR DERCKSEN That is correct sir. MR VISSER And do you agree that you waited a while away from the Oshoek border post, while Mr Strydom was informed about the operation and where you had received certain information? MR DERCKSEN That is correct sir. MR VISSER What information can you remember that you received at that point? MR DERCKSEN Mr Chairperson, the information that I can remember that I received and we received was that we would be taken in, in a group, into Swaziland where we would be deployed at a place that would be pointed out to us, that a vehicle would stop there, that there would be terrorists in the vehicle that were wanted by the Security Branch and that these terrorists had to be arrested. MR VISSER This would of course be an abduction because it was in Swaziland, is this not the case? MR DERCKSEN Yes, we can refer to it as an abduction. MR VISSER Can you remember if a description was given to you of any vehicle? MR DERCKSEN A description was given of vehicles Mr Chairperson, but I cannot remember it at this point what was described to me. MR VISSER You then went into Swaziland under the leadership of Captain Strydom, is that correct? MR DERCKSEN That is correct. MR VISSER And at a certain point you were deployed? MR DERCKSEN That is correct. MR VISSER What happened after this? MR DERCKSEN Time periods are difficult for me to remember at this point, a vehicle stopped there that I can remember and this satisfied the description that was given to us. We did not do anything, the vehicle was too far away from us. The vehicle departed at a point and we returned to the RSA. MR VISSER From there onwards you made your weapons safe and you packed it in and you went? And then you were caught up with and you were told to go back and you went back and you also returned to this specific point where you had been the previous evening? MR DERCKSEN That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER What happened then? MR DERCKSEN We were redeployed again, but not at exactly the same places. There were certain amendments made. MR VISSER You were spread a bit further from one another? MR DERCKSEN That is correct Chairperson. The vehicle that was there earlier, arrived again. MR VISSER Did it stop, switch off its lights? MR DERCKSEN It switched off its lights. MR VISSER And in relation to the vehicle, where were you? MR DERCKSEN Chairperson, I was at the vehicle's right, to the back of the vehicle. MR VISSER So the vehicle actually moved passed you when it stopped? MR DERCKSEN That is correct. MR VISSER And how far away from the vehicle were you? MR DERCKSEN Chairperson, I didn't measure this but if I can estimate, it can be anything between 20 to 30 metres, it can even be further away or it can be closer, I am not hundred percent sure. MR VISSER So you were quite far away from the vehicle? MR DERCKSEN I was quite far away from the vehicle. MR VISSER And can you remember who was next to you or who was close to you? MR DERCKSEN Mr Moolman. Deceased Mr Moolman was very close in the vicinity, I can't remember exactly at this moment if he was to the left or to the right of me and how far away from me he was, but I do know that he was with me at the meeting point. MR VISSER The vehicle stopped and then what did you do? MR DERCKSEN When the vehicle stopped and the lights went off, I got myself in a readiness position to move in to the vehicle. MR VISSER Please tell us about this readiness position, what does this mean? MR DERCKSEN When we were deployed, I was laying down between the grass. No person can move while he is laying down. You must get yourself in a position where your legs are on your arms or in a hunched position. My exact steps, it is a long time ago, I can't remember, I can remember that I did not try and crawl on my stomach to the vehicle. MR VISSER Did you start moving forward? MR DERCKSEN I came into a position so that I can go from a laying position to a moving position. MR VISSER But you had not started moving yet? MR DERCKSEN No, I had not started moving forward yet. MR VISSER What happened then? MR DERCKSEN At that stage, while I was in this position, I don't want to say shouted, sorry I do not want to say I heard a shout, I heard a loud voice, but what was said I do not know. I would want to compare it, if you would say in English there was a sort of a commotion that I could see, there was a commotion. MR VISSER Did you think that there was a commotion as a result of noise that you had heard or something that you had seen? MR DERCKSEN As a result of something that I had heard. MR VISSER Where did this noise emanate from? MR DERCKSEN From the vehicle which was to the right of me. MR VISSER Did you hear anything else? MR DERCKSEN I did not hear anything else. MR VISSER You did not from where you were situated, hear the noise of a weapon being cocked? MR DERCKSEN No Chairperson, I did not. MR VISSER You only heard the voice? MR DERCKSEN That is positive sir. MR VISSER And then what happened? MR DERCKSEN It is difficult to say but with the commotion that I heard, I immediately heard rifle fire, I saw the tracer fire that was used. MR VISSER Did you fire any shots yourself? MR DERCKSEN No, I did not. MR VISSER Why did you not fire any shots? MR DERCKSEN Mr Chairperson, the angle at which I was laying was completely out of proportion in relation to where the vehicle was standing. I was afraid that if I fired any shots at that point, I did not know where my own people were and that I might hit one of them and subsequently I did not fire any shots. MR VISSER What you did that evening, did you do it because of orders that you were executing? MR DERCKSEN That is correct. MR VISSER You have studied Exhibit A is that correct, Exhibit A is the background document. MR DERCKSEN That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you study it? MR DERCKSEN I did go through it Chairperson. MR VISSER Are there parts that you feel is not relevant to you? MR DERCKSEN That is the case Chairperson, the cases dealing with Botswana and Lesotho. MR VISSER But for the rest you would then that the contents of this Exhibit A would be incorporated to your evidence? Just one aspect about deceased Moolman, do you know if he fired a shot? MR DERCKSEN The part or the group or the point where I was situated and laying down, no shots were fired from that point. MR VISSER Moolman then also did not fire? MR DERCKSEN I believe that he also would not have fired. MR VISSER Honourable Chairperson, that is the evidence in chief, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Prinsloo, any questions? MR PRINSLOO No questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Who else was with you at the scene where the shooting occurred? MR DERCKSEN Chairperson, the people who have already been mentioned here, those are the people that I can remember being present there. CHAIRPERSON Who was that? MR DERCKSEN It was Captain Strydom, now Commissioner Strydom, Mr Steenberg, Le Roux, Mr Hope, Mr Moolman, deceased Mr Moolman and deceased Mr Bezuidenhout. CHAIRPERSON Bezuidenhout? MR DERCKSEN Prinsloo, pardon me. MS VAN DER WALT Prinsloo, that is correct because there is not a Bezuidenhout there? MR DERCKSEN No. CHAIRPERSON Are those the only people that were there according to you? MR DERCKSEN That I can remember, yes. CHAIRPERSON That you can remember or were there more? MR DERCKSEN There could have been more, I am not sure Mr Chairperson, it is a long time, one goes with a group, there are a couple of times where you work with different people, I cannot remember how many we were at that point. CHAIRPERSON So your memory is not very good concerning this incident, it did happen 18 years ago? Do you know why the other people fired shots? MR DERCKSEN Chairperson, I accept that there was a reason that caused them to feel threatened and to feel that their lives were in danger and I believe that this was the reason why they fired shots. CHAIRPERSON Do you think that they might have thought that their lives were in danger and that is why they fired shots? MR DERCKSEN I think so. CHAIRPERSON You are speculating? MR DERCKSEN Yes. CHAIRPERSON You did not feel that your life was in danger? MR DERCKSEN At that stage, no. CHAIRPERSON Your intention was to arrest the people, we do know that it was an abduction, but your intention was to arrest them? MR DERCKSEN That is correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You did not afterwards stand up and say "wait, I will kill them", you never fired a shot? MR DERCKSEN No, I did not fire a shot, but I would want to add this, if it had happened that the vehicle stopped where it was directly in front of me, and in the attempt that I would have made to arrest the persons, and if I had felt threatened, then I would have fired myself. CHAIRPERSON Yes, naturally. If you were endangered personally in the attempt to arrest, then you would have defended yourself, that would just be natural or am I understanding you incorrectly? MR DERCKSEN No, it is not a question of whether I would have defended myself, it is more about the nature of the operation. The abduction that had to happen and if that had failed and if they had resisted, to then eliminate them. CHAIRPERSON If they had resisted, how would they according to you, have resisted, with weapons? MR DERCKSEN That is the case. CHAIRPERSON And then you would have fired back? MR DERCKSEN That is the case. CHAIRPERSON Did you see anything in the vehicle? MR DERCKSEN Chairperson, at this point I cannot remember that I saw anything in the vehicle. A vehicle burning, that is what I saw. CHAIRPERSON Did you see anyone of your colleagues move before the shooting? MR DERCKSEN There was movement around me, I heard and I cannot at this point specifically say that this person ran three steps or this person did that, there was movement that I had realised. It is a matter of at that point, one's attention is focused on what is happening in front of you, you want to see what is going on there because that is what it is going about. I was not that aware of the people next to me or the rest of the group. CHAIRPERSON So you cannot really say what happened? MR DERCKSEN I can only say that I heard movement. CHAIRPERSON And please, explain to us the commotion? What actually happened there, how did this commotion come about? MR DERCKSEN It is basically if I can remember correctly, it was people calling out, it is a language that I could not understand. I can't think of words. I also do not want to say that it was panic, it was just calls that had been heard. There was talk or conversation was held in the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON By how many people? MR DERCKSEN That is difficult for me to explain to you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were sentences being said or what was it, was it just one single noise or what? MR DERCKSEN No, it was not a noise like a dog barking, or a person saying good morning or good afternoon, it is more ... CHAIRPERSON Is it getting a fright for something and making a noise? MR DERCKSEN I can maybe put it to you in this way, it is more a fright. If I can picture myself as to what you would do, what is going on there, who are you, that type of thing, but those are not the exact words, it just gave me that impression. CHAIRPERSON That is all, you only heard this noise, there was no movement or anything. MR DERCKSEN You mean movement inside the vehicle, no, I did not see movement at the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Were any shots fired from the vehicle? MR DERCKSEN Not that I know of. CHAIRPERSON What are you applying for amnesty for? MR DERCKSEN For my involvement in the operation Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What did you do? What offences are you guilty of? MR DERCKSEN I feel that I was part of the group, that I had knowledge of the abduction and that it was illegal and that in case it would happen that the vehicle was in front of me, that I was prepared to execute orders that were given to me. CHAIRPERSON You have just told us that you were a member of the group, did you have knowledge of the illegal abduction and what did you say last, if the vehicle stood in front of you - I am talking about something that you had done. I want to know what you did wrong. Is there anything else? Can't you think of anything else? MR DERCKSEN No, I can't. CHAIRPERSON Did you cross the border with a passport? MR DERCKSEN No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was it legal to go there without a passport? MR DERCKSEN No, it was not legal. CHAIRPERSON Did you formulate any idea about how many people were in the vehicle and what their destiny was? MR DERCKSEN You mean ... CHAIRPERSON At any stage while you were at the scene? MR DERCKSEN The only idea that I had was that it was said that, the information that was coming through or that was given to us, that there would be two people, I did not see it, who they were, I do not know. With these proceedings I only learnt the names of the people were apparently MK Brown and something else. CHAIRPERSON You do not know what happened at the scene, if people were injured or if people were killed or whatever happened? MR DERCKSEN At the time of this vehicle catching fire, the vehicle was still away, a distance away from me. I did not move to the vehicle, we immediately departed and I do not have knowledge apart from the reports that I have received afterwards, but I do not have first hand knowledge. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Dercksen. Questions from the panel? ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. Mr Dercksen, did I hear you correctly when you said the car moved passed you or did I not hear properly? MR DERCKSEN That is correct Chairperson, the vehicle moved from the border post side, coming in, it moved passed us and it turned around and it stopped. ADV GCABASHE ... turned and stopped, it moved away from you, further away from you or slightly closer to you? MR DERCKSEN I will demonstrate it like this, it went passed us, turned around and stopped from the point where I was. ADV GCABASHE Now considering that cul-de-sac you have just drawn, you had entered from the circle side, is that where you had entered from originally? MR DERCKSEN I am not sure that I understand the question. ADV GCABASHE The cul-de-sac or the circle at the bottom of the road going out, and you said the car came down, turned at the cul-de-sac and faced back the way it had come. MR DERCKSEN That is positive. ADV GCABASHE My question is, when you arrived before the car got there, did you arrive from the circle side, from the cul-de-sac side, is that where you entered and deployed yourself along the road, or did you come from the road side and deployed yourself around the circle? MR DERCKSEN No, no, it is difficult to explain it here without having a graphical outlay of it. As the road lies like this, the RSA border is parallel with the road, the border post is on that side and the road comes from this side, like that, a cul-de-sac and that is how the vehicle turned. Our steps were from the border direct to here. ADV GCABASHE All right, that gives me a better picture. But from where you were, you obviously could not see the border post, it was a kilometre away? MR DERCKSEN Only the lights glimmering. ADV GCABASHE ... passed you in particular, were you able to observe that there were people in this car and how many people were in this car, as it drove passed you? MR DERCKSEN No, Chairperson, I could not see this. ADV GCABASHE ... aspect, you were told that you were going there to arrest these people, to abduct them and take them where? MR DERCKSEN Back to the RSA to give them to the Security Branch people, where the Security Branch's people were. ADV GCABASHE ... and then everybody else would ... MR DERCKSEN No, no, according to what I can recall, we had to give them to the Security Branch's people there. I believe it, we did not have room to transport them if we had to take them to Pretoria. ADV GCABASHE Last question, were there black members of the Task Team with you, the Task Force with you? MR DERCKSEN During those years, there were not black members in the Special Task Force. There were no black members. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination Mr Visser? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Just that one aspect Chairperson. Mr Dercksen, before you went in, you knew that the possibility existed that some people could be injured or killed? MR DERCKSEN That is positive and that includes myself Chairperson. MR VISSER But other people? MR DERCKSEN That is positive Chairperson. MR VISSER And did you identify with that? MR DERCKSEN Yes, I did. MR VISSER And we know that according to the evidence, that two persons were indeed killed, whether you had seen them or not that evening, that is the situation? MR DERCKSEN That is positive Chairperson. MR VISSER And it is in terms of this that you apply for any offence which is related to murder with relation to these persons? MR DERCKSEN Definitely Chairperson. MR VISSER And that is why you apply for amnesty? MR DERCKSEN Yes Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON You are excused. MR DERCKSEN Thank you very much Chairperson. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER I don't know how full one must lead the evidence, Mr Dercksen before you leave, perhaps I should ask him the next question as well, did you after the incident, did you report your participation in the illegal crossing of the border to try and abduct people? MR DERCKSEN No, I did not Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON I assume there are no questions arising from this question? You are excused Mr Dercksen. MR DERCKSEN Thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED