amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-12 JOHANNESBURG 8 D.G. HOPE AM 7121 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53360&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990512jh.htm ON RESUMPTION MR VISSER I call Mr Hope Chairperson, Bundle 4, page 802. D.G. HOPE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Please sit Mr Hope. Mr Hope, you apply for amnesty, you have completed an application form which appears in Bundle 4, on page 802 up to page 807, is that correct? MR HOPE That is correct. MR VISSER Do you confirm the contents thereof? MR HOPE I confirm it, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you have also said in paragraph 7(a) that you did not belong to any political party or were a supporter, are these the correct facts? MR HOPE This is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER In 1981 you were a member of the Special Task Force of the South African Police? MR HOPE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And you received instructions to at a date which we know now is the 8th of December, to go to the Oshoek border post of Swaziland? MR HOPE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you recall who accompanied you there and who participated in the operation? MR HOPE I can recall Chairperson, I can recall Mr Le Roux, Dercksen, Mr Steenberg, Commissioner Strydom, then Captain Strydom and I am not sure of Mr Moolman. MR VISSER Mr Prinsloo? MR HOPE Mr Prinsloo was right next to me, that is correct. MR VISSER Are these the only persons whom you can recall? MR HOPE There may have been others, but these are the only ones that I can recall today. MR VISSER At the border post were you informed as to what the operation entailed? MR HOPE That is correct Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER What was said to you? MR HOPE It was told to us that a vehicle would arrive and a description was given of the vehicle, it would be a light vehicle, but I cannot recall what type of vehicle it would be and there would be two occupants whom they described as two high profile terrorists, whom we had to attempt firstly to arrest and if we could not, we should eliminate these persons. MR VISSER Did you receive such instructions? MR HOPE That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER You went in? MR HOPE That is correct. MR VISSER At the scene, did a vehicle arrive, stopped for a while and then departed again? MR HOPE Yes. MR VISSER Did this vehicle answer to the description that you had? MR HOPE That is correct. MR VISSER And through out you were under the command of Captain Strydom? MR HOPE That is correct. MR VISSER Did he tell you that you had to leave? MR HOPE Yes, we withdrew and we went to Pretoria. MR VISSER A vehicle caught up with you and you were informed to return? MR HOPE Yes. At that stage, I was sleeping when the vehicle reached us, I woke up and we went back to the border, that is positive. MR VISSER Did you go back to the place that was identified to you? MR HOPE Yes sir. MR VISSER With certain adaptions, you were deployed over a larger area? MR HOPE Yes. MR VISSER Did a vehicle return? MR HOPE Yes, the same vehicle returned which was there the evening. MR VISSER Could you see if there were any occupants in the vehicle? MR HOPE My head was hidden behind the grass, I could not see it. When it turned and came back, and at that stage, at the angle at which I was laying, I could only see the driver of the vehicle. MR VISSER Did the vehicle stop? MR HOPE That is correct. MR VISSER It switched off its lights? MR HOPE Yes, it switched off its lights. MR VISSER What happened then? MR HOPE Mr Chairperson, the lights were switched off and suddenly I heard some movement to the left of me and then there was an exclamation from the vehicle. I cannot say whether, if I can connect it to some language. I heard some weapon being cocked and just before that, I put myself in such a position where I could jump up and run to the vehicle. When the firearm was cocked, I threw myself down and the next moment, I heard some commotion and there were some shots and I started firing. MR VISSER Can you recall who was close to you? MR HOPE Directly next to me was the deceased Mr Ertjies Prinsloo. MR VISSER On which side? MR HOPE He was on my left hand side. MR VISSER Anybody else you can recall at the scene? MR HOPE To my right I think was Mr Le Roux. MR VISSER So you just rose up to start moving closer and you heard this cocking of the weapon and then you threw yourself down again? MR HOPE Yes. MR VISSER Did you start shooting first or did anybody else, the members of the Task Force, start shooting first? MR HOPE To my left somebody started shooting and therefore I started shooting. MR VISSER Could it have been Prinsloo? MR HOPE No, it was further to the left. MR VISSER Who was there? MR HOPE That group was Captain Strydom, now Commissioner Strydom and his group who was on that side. MR VISSER In relation to where you were laying Mr Hope, where did this vehicle stop? MR HOPE I would say that basically it stopped right in front of me. MR VISSER It stopped right at you, how far were you from this vehicle? MR HOPE Approximately 15 metres. MR VISSER And when you opened fire, did you fire from a laying position? MR HOPE Yes. MR VISSER And which weapon did you have there? MR HOPE I had a 7.62 Russian weapon, I cannot recall what make. MR VISSER Was it a rifle? MR HOPE Yes, it was a rifle. MR VISSER Do you think that you may have hit the persons or person in the vehicle? MR HOPE From such a distance it is quite possible. MR VISSER What happened to the vehicle? MR HOPE My first burst of shots were only tracer bullets and when I fired, I heard a whistling sound and the vehicle caught alight. MR VISSER Could you see afterwards how many people were in the vehicle? MR HOPE That is correct. When I heard this sound and the vehicle caught alight, I was afraid that it could explode and I moved back. MR VISSER Could you see how many people were in the vehicle? MR HOPE That is positive, I saw that there were two occupants in the vehicle. MR VISSER Both on the front seats? MR HOPE That is correct. MR VISSER Did they move or were they (indistinct) MR HOPE I can recall, but I think they were not moving. MR VISSER Chairperson, I notice it is one o'clock, I don't know what the arrangements are now about Pretoria, but we are obviously not going to finish before lunch time. It seems to me that we will probably be another, well the other aspect is the question of argument, it seems to me we are going to be the rest of the day. CHAIRPERSON Yes, our intention was to complete this matter. We are told that in any event we don't have this venue for tomorrow, so by the looks of it, it looks like we are into Monday, but we were hopeful of completing this matter. You know, at the same time, we want to assist our colleagues. How many witnesses are left? One? MR VISSER If I may add Chairperson, that that witness has nothing really to add to what you already know, but he is available to give his evidence. We will obviously finish this afternoon, but certainly not now. CHAIRPERSON ... MR VISSER Yes Chairperson, that is the evidence in chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo, any questions? MR PRINSLOO No questions Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Mrs Van der Walt, questions? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MRS VAN DER WALT MS THABETHE No questions, Mr Chair. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE MR VISSER Chairperson, I didn't take him through the evidence every time about what he applies for amnesty for, we have never done that before in the sense that we believe that the facts should speak for themselves. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER But if that is going to be a requirement, then I would have to ask him those questions. CHAIRPERSON If he knows what he is applying for, then you can ask him. FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Hope, you apply for amnesty and in regard to the crossing of border post, border regulations and the attempted abduction on persons in Swaziland, is that correct? MR HOPE That is correct. MR VISSER Did you also foresee that persons might be killed or injured during this operation? MR HOPE It is so Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you also identify yourself with that? MR HOPE Yes, I did Chairperson. MR VISSER And you also committed, you also defeated the ends of justice by not reporting these incidents to the correct authorities? MR HOPE Indeed Chairperson. MR VISSER And you also fired directly? MR HOPE That is so Chairperson. MR VISSER And your shots could have killed one or more of the persons? MR HOPE Indeed Chairperson. MR VISSER And therefore you apply for amnesty for murder? MR HOPE That is true Chairperson. MR VISSER As it pleases you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Can you please tell us Mr Hope, why did you open fire? MR HOPE When I heard the weapon being cocked, I realised that our lives were in danger because these persons were already ready to fire, so it would not be my people. CHAIRPERSON Did you open fire because your lives were in danger? MR HOPE No Chairperson, because it was an illegal action. CHAIRPERSON So your life cannot be endangered in an illegal action? MR HOPE Chairperson, at that stage as they say, no legality could emanate from this, "don't worry". CHAIRPERSON What I want to ask you is was your life in danger? Forget about the technical things. MR HOPE I believe that from the time that I crossed the border until the time that I returned, my life was in danger. CHAIRPERSON But at the scene before you opened fire, was your life in danger? MR HOPE I believe at any stage my life was in danger, but I believe that my actions were all illegal. CHAIRPERSON Why did you open fire? MR HOPE I opened fire because there was an instruction given to me that if these persons could not be apprehended, that they should be eliminated and with that I felt that my life was in danger when the weapon was cocked. CHAIRPERSON So you felt that your life was in danger when the weapon was cocked and that is why you opened fire? MR HOPE I also opened fire as part thereof. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean as part thereof, as part of what? MR HOPE Because there were other aspects, I had to ensure that the people, the other people who were there, their lives were also not in danger. CHAIRPERSON But all your lives were in danger according to you? MR HOPE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And that is why you opened fire, to take out the person because they were a problem at that stage, for the government. Did you shoot to take these persons out or because your life was in danger, what is the position? MR HOPE The position is that these persons, if they were not arrested, we had to shoot them. In this process, I also felt that my life was in danger. CHAIRPERSON Is it now both together, your life was in danger and in any case you had to take out these people? MR HOPE If they could not be arrested, yes. CHAIRPERSON So it is these two, so you could not arrest them, so you had to take them out, but your life was also in danger? MR HOPE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And this is why you opened fire? MR HOPE Not necessarily because my life was in danger, but to take out these people. CHAIRPERSON And these are the two reasons why you opened fire, so you wanted to take out these people and you also wanted to protect yourself? MR HOPE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Against the danger which you found yourself in? MR HOPE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Which persons did you want to take out? MR HOPE According to our information, the people were high profile terrorists who were in the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON But you acted against two specific persons? MR HOPE At that stage, I had no names or information, just that it was two high profile persons. CHAIRPERSON So you do not know whom you had shot? MR HOPE No. In consultation with the legal representative, I found out who was shot. CHAIRPERSON Did you see any weapons in the vehicle? MR HOPE I did not see any weapons. At the angle where I was laying at, I could not see anything. CHAIRPERSON Was there any shots fired at you or your colleagues, from the vehicle? MR HOPE Not that I could observe. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Thank you. Mr Visser? MR VISSER No re-examination Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Hope, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, (indistinct), is he one of the operators? MR VISSER Yes Chairperson, but he also fired shots, very similar to ... NO FURTHER RECORDING