amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-10 JOHANNESBURG 10 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53363&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990518jh.htm CHAIRPERSON: For the record it's Tuesday the 18th of May 1999. It is the continuation of the amnesty application of WHJ Coetzee and Others, in respect of the matter - Simelane. Mr van den Berg you had to consult and see whether you have any further questions. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairperson. Can I express my gratitude that we started a little later this morning. It enabled me just to give some feedback to my clients in respect of the consultations that took place yesterday afternoon and then early this morning. I do have some questions arising from my consultations with Gilbert Twale and Nodumo Nkosi. CHAIRPERSON Very well. WILLEM HELM J COETZEE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG (cont) Mr Coetzee what did Nokuthula tell you about what her mission here in South Africa was? What was she doing here. MR W H J COETZEE If I remember correctly she joined with various persons, among others the group which we handled with both a military political background and orders. MR VAN DEN BERG It was then a contact with a group called Scotch and Frank? MR W H J COETZEE There were also other persons of whom I can no longer recall the particulars. MR VAN DEN BERG Could you describe the approximate vicinity where they were situated? MR W H J COETZEE It was in Soweto, and I speak under correction, and the Pretoria environment. MR VAN DEN BERG I put it to you that Miss Simelane was tasked by Mpho, that is his MK name, his correct name is Gilbert Twala, to make contact here with the unit consisting of Scotch and Frank, and this was for the purposes of establishing a communications network. Is it your evidence that she would have given instructions to Scotch, pertinently related to the bomb explosions at Bryanston and Fairlands? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson her contact was directly and indirectly related to their military oriented activities and the RSA as an underground unit of the MK machinery in Swaziland. MR VISSER Chairperson may I perhaps enquire, through the Chair, who Scotch and Frank are, because these are new names that we are now hearing. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it would assist me as well. Either you or the witness. MR VAN DEN BERG Can I clarify it. Is it correct that the person Scotch was Terror Mkhonza? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG And is it correct that the person with the MK name, Frank, was a Sergeant Langa? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG And they operated as a front MK organisation? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG I am indebted to my colleague, Mr Visser. The bomb explosions at Bryanston and Fairlands, did these instructions come through Nokuthula Simelane? MR W H J COETZEE It was related directly and indirectly to the involvement of these persons and their infiltration and orders from Swaziland. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee please. Will you please try to give us a simple answer. Did Miss Simelane bring instructions for these two individuals to attack those places? MR W H J COETZEE It was target action, yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were these targets specifically identified? MR W H J COETZEE Yes these were identified targets. CHAIRPERSON So she came with the order that they were to attack these specific targets? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson, and it was later cleared with a follow-up visit to Swaziland. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Twala has told me that the orders to Nokuthula Simelane were merely about the communications network and that there were no instructions with regard to targets and that there had been no operational instructions of any nature whatsoever. Can you dispute that? MR W H J COETZEE I deny that. MR VAN DEN BERG Furthermore she only had communication with one other unit in the Vaal Triangle, and she was given pertinent instructions not to liaise with that group during this visit, can you dispute that? MR W H J COETZEE I can no longer recall the details of her visit. MR VAN DEN BERG She was sent by Mpho or Gilbert Twala. His recollection is that he sent her on Wednesday and that she arrived in Soweto on either the Wednesday or the Thursday. You would probably not know about that. MR W H J COETZEE As I have said Chairperson, I can no longer recall everything regarding the details of her visit and her movements. ADV DE JAGER You would never know what he told her, what Mr Mpho told her, except insofar as she may have told you that she received these instructions. Were you present when Mr Mpho gave her the instructions? MR W H J COETZEE No Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Therefore you don't know what those instructions were. MR W H J COETZEE No. ADV DE JAGER However, she did make certain admissions to you later. MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV DE JAGER And these admissions, which she made to you are they correlating with the statement that is being put to you that Mr Mpho sent her on a Wednesday and that she arrived here either on the Wednesday or the Thursday. Do you know anything about that? MR W H J COETZEE No, it does not correlate. ADV GCABASHE Like then you also had agents Mkhonza and agent Langa who were part of your Swaziland network. MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE And you may have gleaned certain information from them as well. MR W H J COETZEE Certainly in terms of the orders which were given to them. ADV GCABASHE Now did you glean from them any information about when Nokuthula Simelane would be arriving? The questions that have been asked by Mr van den Berg. MR W H J COETZEE They were unaware of when precisely she would have come to the RSA. They only had information pertaining to the date, time and place of rendezvous. MR VAN DEN BERG And then Scotch and Frank, or Mkhonza and Langa would not have known about where she would be accommodated? MR W H J COETZEE That's correct. MR VAN DEN BERG That information about Duma Nkosi you only obtained from her once you interrogated her. MR W H J COETZEE That's correct. MR VAN DEN BERG Did she provide any other information regarding Duma Nkosi? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson as I have said I can longer recall everything except that I know that the particular person was involved in cell structures which existed within the country and who all the members were I cannot comment about. MR VAN DEN BERG Did you receive any information from her with regard to the members of Nkosi's cell structure? MR W H J COETZEE Names were mentioned and there were also names which she later identified. However, I cannot comment regarding that because we did not address the Duma information thereafter. MR VAN DEN BERG Just as the Security police functioned on a need-to-know basis the ANC also operated on a need-to-know basis. MR W H J COETZEE I agree with you, but they also made many mistakes, just like the SAP. MR VAN DEN BERG She was accommodated by Duma Nkosi. He gave her no information regarding the work which he had performed for the ANC and he pertinently did not give her any information regarding the cells which he had co-ordinated or the members of those cells. You cannot dispute that? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson, we are speaking of her capability and her information which she obtained from her missions within the country as well as outside the country. MR VAN DEN BERG Nokuthula Simelane stayed with Duma Nkosi only once in his home. MR W H J COETZEE I cannot give any more detailed commentary about the Duma Nkosi issue. ADV GCABASHE Are you able, however, to indicate when the Nkosi issue came up during the interrogation? Very early on, very late in the interrogation? MR W H J COETZEE If I recall correctly it would have been during the course of the interrogation. ADV DE JAGER Yes but please Mr Coetzee you are being asked when, now you say during the course of the investigation. This investigation took at least five weeks. You are being asked whether or not this took place at the beginning or at the end. Please listen to the question and try to help us and tell us whether this was during the first week or the last week. MR W H J COETZEE I beg your pardon Chairperson. I would say that it would have been immediately after the arrest and during the recruitment, that would have been during the first week, where we must have, and did, confront her with a multiplicity of facts, but primarily pertaining to the MK and military aspects which we were handling in co-operation with her. ADV GCABASHE The short answer is in the first week? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson, if I can recall correctly. MR VAN DEN BERG And that was the first time that you obtained information regarding Duma Nkosi? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson I think that he was well known in Soweto as a result of his activities. MR VAN DEN BERG If we study your amnesty application you say that as a result of the information which Nokuthula Simelane provided there were two consequences, and I refer you to page 276 of Bundle 2. The next arrest which has to do with, among others, the following, that would be the arrest of MK, Mpho, and we saw his photograph yesterday, and I put it to you that that Mpho is not the Mpho who was her handler. You cannot dispute that. MR W H J COETZEE The two identities of those two persons are not known to me at this stage. MR VAN DEN BERG Then you mention a Cheche, who was that? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson I cannot recall the real names of the person but I know that he was a member of that particular machinery. MR VAN DEN BERG These arrests, when did they take place? MR W H J COETZEE I can no longer recall the precise dates, but I know that the first case was two weeks after we had abducted Simelane, Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG The first case, was that Mpho or Cheche? MR W H J COETZEE The first case was Mpho, if I recall correctly. MR VAN DEN BERG And the arrest of Cheche, when did that take place? MR W H J COETZEE That took place at a later stage. I cannot recall the exact date of the arrests. MR VAN DEN BERG Was it during October, November or December of 1983, or later than that? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson it could possibly have started in early December and run through to January of 1984. MR VAN DEN BERG Because, as I understand it, Cheche was also known as Wally. Do you know about that? MR W H J COETZEE No Chairperson, we only knew him as Cheche. MR VAN DEN BERG And elsewhere in the documents he has been identified as Ngide, that was his real name. MR W H J COETZEE Yes, yes, that is his real name. MR VAN DEN BERG Could you then dispute that he was arrested on the 25th of March, 1984? MR W H J COETZEE As I have already stated, Chairperson, I can no longer recall the exact dates, but I know that I did arrest a person. MR VAN DEN BERG So it was a full six months after the abduction? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, those are the cases that I can recall. MR VAN DEN BERG And his arrest led to numerous other arrests including that of Duma Nkosi? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson, I did not manage that investigation. I simply arrested the man and gave him over to an investigative unit who would conduct the necessary follow-up work and arrests. MR VAN DEN BERG Can you still recall where he was detained? MR W H J COETZEE I did not detain him, neither did I interrogate him. MR VAN DEN BERG Secondly you mention actions taken against the Sasol MK sabotage grouping. That's page 276 that I am referring you to again. Can you elaborate on that? MR W H J COETZEE That is on the hand of information which was given by Simelane. MR VAN DEN BERG And who were the members of this Sasol MK sabotage group? MR W H J COETZEE Their group and activities is no longer clear to me but I know they were a notorious group led by Barney Molekwane. MR VAN DEN BERG So the information which you received from her led to this action against Barney Molekwane? MR W H J COETZEE We are speaking directly and indirectly. MR VAN DEN BERG Did it also lead to the death of Barney Molekwane? MR W H J COETZEE I cannot comment on that. I was not involved in the incident. MR VAN DEN BERG I do not have the precise date of his death because it is also not known to the family but it took place during November 1985. MR W H J COETZEE I cannot comment regarding that. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Twala says that after he re-established contact with Duma Nkosi, well let me just take a few steps back. I apologise. The order to Nokuthula was to establish contact between her and Mpho on the Friday before the meeting with Scotch was to take place. And you would surely not know about that. MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson, as I have already said I can no longer recall of her movements before the action. MR VAN DEN BERG There was no communication between her and Mpho on that Friday. You cannot dispute that? MR W H J COETZEE I cannot comment on that. As I have said I can no longer recall the detail of the communication among the various subjects. MR VAN DEN BERG On the day of the contact with Scotch, and according to Mr Twala this was on a Saturday, I think that agrees with your evidence. MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG The incident took place on a Saturday? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG She did not return to the Nkosi household because she was in your custody. MR W H J COETZEE Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG A few days later Mr Twala once again attempted to communicate with Nkosi and the information was then communicated to him that the lady had vanished. That she had not returned. I think I put it to you first that it was the next day, but indeed it was several days later. Once again you would not know about that communication. MR W H J COETZEE No Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG He did not have contact with Miss Simelane again. She never returned to Swaziland. She never attempted to contact him again. MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson yesterday, during my earlier evidence, I referred to the fact that we had identified Nkosi to manage her strategic replacements in Swaziland and to use the person as a scapegoat in order to manage our intelligence capacity and our group and to fortify it. MR VAN DEN BERG Do you know anything about the relationship between Mr Nkosi and Mr Twala, do you know about that? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson I no longer recall in detail what was told to us and I was not involved in later investigations, and that is why I cannot comment regarding that. MR VAN DEN BERG You see they were together at school for a period of time. Later Mr Twala left the country for military training. Mr Nkosi completed his schooling in Swaziland. They were good friends and in Swaziland they re-established that contact. Mr Nkosi agreed to assist the ANC. He was a supporter and a member and he from time-to-time he would be in Swaziland to take instructions and to convey instructions to his cell structure. They were very good friends and the level of trust was very high. Did you have any knowledge about that? MR W H J COETZEE No, not about the background. MR VAN DEN BERG So the cover-up, or cover story which indicated that Nkosi was a problem would not have worked? MR W H J COETZEE I cannot comment about that. Depending upon how it was managed, yes Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Do you know a Mpumi Dlamini? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson I can no longer recall all the names because we dealt with a wealth of names which indicated true identities and MK identities. MR VAN DEN BERG What was the information which led to the arrest of Cheche? MR W H J COETZEE It emanated from our own intelligence capacity and the access which Mr Langa had among their ranks. MR VAN DEN BERG You stated that Nokuthula Simelane had two handlers. That would be Mpho, whom we have already discussed, and he was also known as Gilbert Twala, but the other handler you have stated that you cannot recall who it was. If I recall correctly you said that it was an Indian man and a white woman. MR W H J COETZEE She did refer to training in Mozambique in which a white woman and an Indian man had been involved. MR VAN DEN BERG And as one of the more high profile members of the ANC you would have remembered the name ...(intervention) MR W H J COETZEE Ja ...(intervention) MR VAN DEN BERG .... for example Mac Maharaj or Indress Naidoo? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson, the names which we identified were identified as a result of the terrorist photo album and on the basis of their MK identities. However, there were several persons whose identities we could never establish, if I recall correctly. MR VAN DEN BERG And you did not connect her with Aboobaker Ismail or Rashid? MR W H J COETZEE No, no Chairperson. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Chairman if you would just give me a moment to look at my notes. I don't think I have any further questions. The hand-written notes which were taken during the interrogation and the notes which she made for you, were those filed? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG And those were part of her file which was registered at the Soweto Security branch? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG That file surely does not exist anymore? MR W H J COETZEE I cannot comment on that because later I was transferred from Soweto. MR VAN DEN BERG When you were transferred? MR W H J COETZEE At the end of 1987. MR VAN DEN BERG And to where were you transferred? MR W H J COETZEE To Pretoria Head Office. MR VAN DEN BERG Pretoria Head Office of the Security Branch? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. MR VAN DEN BERG And then you would probably know about the evidence of Brigadier Cronje and his group who applied regarding the fact that files were destroyed? MR W H J COETZEE That was commonly known and this aspect is also confirmed by the media. MR VAN DEN BERG So if I understand it correctly there would be no written proof that she was registered as an informer? MR W H J COETZEE I cannot say anything about that because I was not involved in the process. MR VAN DEN BERG I cannot recall whether or not I put this to you or not, but if your evidence is correct then she would have returned to Swaziland and she would once again have been accommodated with her family. MR W H J COETZEE It wasn't about the family. Yesterday I gave evidence that the objective was to make contact and I indicated that she was to continue with the cell grouping of which she was actually a member. I also mentioned that she was sent in by somebody who was not authorised and that she did not tell this to her initial handlers and that they were unaware of the fact that somebody else was using her. And that is that in a nutshell. MR VAN DEN BERG Because her family never saw her again. She never arrived back at the home of her uncles where she lived from time-to-time and her family and her friends never saw her again either. MR W H J COETZEE I cannot comment on that. I cannot comment on what happened after her release and after her replacement in Swaziland. I have already said yesterday that appointments were not honoured and the circumstances for which she had to account with persons in Swaziland are unknown to me. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr van den Berg. Mr Coetzee how old was Miss Simelane when she was in your custody? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson I would estimate that she was in her twenties, approximately 23 years old, but I cannot recall her exact age. CHAIRPERSON And what was her physical build? MR W H J COETZEE She was slender. CHAIRPERSON So one would not have described her as a strong person? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON She was a twenty something, slender ...(intervention) MR W H J COETZEE Yes, I would agree with you. CHAIRPERSON You say that when you confronted her at the Carlton Centre she was nervous? MR W H J COETZEE That was when I joined in for the first time after we tackled her and grabbed her. That was when she was nervous. On various occasions she appeared to be nervous. CHAIRPERSON But from the very beginning? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, from the beginning. CHAIRPERSON And upon various occasions thereafter? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, upon various occasions because it was about her own circumstances within the ranks of the relevant groups. CHAIRPERSON And if I understand you correctly you said that as a result of that initial contact with her and her nervous reaction you held the opinion that you would be able to undertake a successful turning action on her? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did I understand you correctly, please correct me if I am wrong, did you slap her around in the vehicle? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why did you do that? MR W H J COETZEE To intimidate her and to obtain her co-operation. I would refer to that as part of my own handling methodology, the manner in which I worked. CHAIRPERSON You first slap and then hit? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, and I think that some of the members will testify that that was my handling methodology. CHAIRPERSON How many times did you slap her? MR W H J COETZEE I can't recall but I know that I have said that upon various occasions ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON No we'll get to that later, we are speaking of the first contact now. MR W H J COETZEE I cannot recall. CHAIRPERSON But it was just a few slaps? MR W H J COETZEE Well if I had to give a number of slaps it will be two or three. CHAIRPERSON Through the face? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, in her face. CHAIRPERSON And you felt that that was sufficient? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON It wasn't necessary for you to intimidate her any further? MR W H J COETZEE At that stage she answered the questions that we were putting to her. CHAIRPERSON So basically it took two slaps in the face and then she would be sufficiently intimidated and co-operated with you? MR W H J COETZEE That was the beginning. CHAIRPERSON What did she do, did she cry? MR W H J COETZEE I cannot recall precisely. CHAIRPERSON Didn't she fight back? MR W H J COETZEE No, not after the arrest and not at that stage when she was seated in the car with us. CHAIRPERSON Very well. So then if I understand you correctly, for the first week she was repeatedly assaulted? MR W H J COETZEE Yes in my presence. I confirmed yesterday that she was also assaulted by the other members. That this could have been possible. CHAIRPERSON No we will only discuss what you can give evidence about. In your presence during that first week she was assaulted numerous times. MR W H J COETZEE Yes I also addressed the possibility that I may have slapped her on occasion thereafter when the input questions were put to her but that was upon certain occasions. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Those assaults during the first week, were they serious assaults? MR W H J COETZEE I have already stated that we bagged her, we hit her with a fist and we slapped her. There is the possibility that she may have been kicked, but at this stage I cannot recall. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but was it serious? MR W H J COETZEE Yes I would say so to a certain degree. CHAIRPERSON So it was repeated assault? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson a person had to be broken first in order to rebuild them thereafter in order to establish a situation of trust between the parties. CHAIRPERSON So after that first intimidation in the vehicle she co-operated and then after that became difficult again? MR W H J COETZEE We handled her in various facets. She had a wealth of information with regard to persons whose photos were in the terrorist photo album, who had already been identified as a result of their external military training as well as information that she had heard, and information that she had gained from things she had seen, so there were many aspects on the table. CHAIRPERSON But I am asking you what her reaction was when you had her on the farm, in the middle of nowhere, in a single room, with a whole big group of you, did she not cooperate? MR W H J COETZEE No she co-operated. She co-operated to such an extent that we gave her the pen and paper to write with. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Regardless of that these assaults took place consistently during the first week? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And they were serious? MR W H J COETZEE Upon various occasions in the first week of her presence on the farm, yes. CHAIRPERSON And serious enough that you would be prepared to describe it as torture? That is what appears in Exhibit T. MR W H J COETZEE I would then put it that way. CHAIRPERSON So you tortured her for a week? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. It boils down to that. CHAIRPERSON And how many of you were involved? MR W H J COETZEE We rotated. CHAIRPERSON What was the average number of your police presence? MR W H J COETZEE Normally two to three. It may have varied to four. I can no longer recall but I do know with regard to the occasion that I was present there, we were only two, and that was during the later stages. CHAIRPERSON And all of you handled her? MR W H J COETZEE If I recall everybody participated. CHAIRPERSON So everybody participated in the assaults? MR W H J COETZEE Whether direct or indirectly or whether they struck her or whether they held her back, all of these things would have taken place with my authorisation. CHAIRPERSON So in other words you were the member who was in control of the situation? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were you also the chief attacker? MR W H J COETZEE As I have already said I wouldn't say that I was - or least yes, I would say that I was the chief agent of assault. Yes, because I undertook the objective questioning. CHAIRPERSON So why did you assault and torture her the whole week long? MR W H J COETZEE We reached very sensitive aspects and I have referred to the fact that we had to break her and re-build her. We had to establish that situation of trust. We had to be able to access the entire circumference of the data which she had at her disposal. We had to get her to the point where she would implicate herself so that we could build upon that and give her future oriented tasks thereafter. CHAIRPERSON But what I don't understand, and the reason why I am questioning you is that you said when you had her on her own on the farm there she co-operated, so why did the torture and the assault have to continue for the entire week? MR W H J COETZEE I have referred to the fact that we dealt with various aspects, various persons and cell structures of which she had knowledge, of which she had heard as a result of the fact that the ANC structures also made mistakes, just like the SAP did when it came to identifying structures and so forth. CHAIRPERSON Was this just simply part of the working method? MR W H J COETZEE At that stage it was necessitated as a result of the need to establish the total amount of information that she had at her disposal, and also with the purpose of rebuilding her and recreating her attitude towards the situation. The assaults must have a contributed to a certain measure in the achievement of this objective. CHAIRPERSON Did this help to rebuild the relationship between you and her? MR W H J COETZEE There was a certain point where you would place a person under pressure, or sometimes you would be concessive towards that person and build and you would be building in order to re-establish the attitude and the partnership between the two persons. CHAIRPERSON So you would do this by means of an assault? MR W H J COETZEE That was after assaults, it was only after assaults that one would become concessive and begin to recruit that particular person and have long and lengthy discussions with that person, and to indicate the other side of the story to the person and to give them the assurance, in terms of their future in the event of them co-operating or not. CHAIRPERSON Did she refuse to give information during the first week on the farm? MR W H J COETZEE No Chairperson, but it was about the in-depth knowledge that she had regarding certain subject. CHAIRPERSON So in other words was it necessary for you to assault or torture her in order to obtain information from her or not? MR W H J COETZEE I would say yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was it necessary? MR W H J COETZEE Yes it was necessary. CHAIRPERSON With all of them? MR W H J COETZEE The fierce psychosis which they had in terms of revealing the knowledge that they had was, according to my perspective, very intimidating and to a certain extent they suffered from a fear psychosis as a result of the feared action against them should they in such a case expose the military activities and networks Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So were there opportunities, I am just trying to establish what happened, were there opportunities or occasions upon which she refused to give you this information after which you would assault her and then she would give you the information? MR W H J COETZEE As I have said a few moments ago, at times when she did not give all the information which she had and retained certain information ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You would then hit her in order to get that information? MR W H J COETZEE In order to extract the in-depth information from her, yes. CHAIRPERSON So in order to extract that which she was holding back you would hit her, the whole week long? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. When I say the week I don't indicate that this was consistent. It took place on isolated occasions. It was not a fluid, continuous torture or assault. CHAIRPERSON And after the first week things improved? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And at the very worst you may have given her the odd slap here and there? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON But nothing more grave than that? MR W H J COETZEE That's correct. CHAIRPERSON You said that her face was swollen? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why was it swollen? MR W H J COETZEE From slaps. CHAIRPERSON So you say that she would have been hit so violently with an open hand that her face would have swollen? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was it her whole face or what part of her face? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson I cannot recall specifically but what I remember is that it was her eye. I guess it depends upon which side of the face I struck her. I cannot recall directly but I do confirm that her eye or her eye bank was swollen. CHAIRPERSON Just one of the eye banks? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. I cannot recall precisely in terms of which eye or whether or not it was both eye banks that were swollen. CHAIRPERSON So you hit her with conviction? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, I hit her hard. CHAIRPERSON And after that first week did you arrange any medical treatment for her? MR W H J COETZEE Yes if she had any kind of headache she would receive headache tablets. CHAIRPERSON Did you get a doctor in for her? MR W H J COETZEE No. CHAIRPERSON Why not? MR W H J COETZEE Because her injuries were not open injuries. CHAIRPERSON Did you give her pain killers? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON After the first week? MR W H J COETZEE If she had headaches, yes, because you must remember she was under a great deal of pressure. She was making revelations about her entire involvement as well as the involvement of others. I've already told you Chairperson that there was that psychosis of fear and it was a very well known fact that these persons who were involved had to be revealed. CHAIRPERSON But those pain killers would they have been provided after the first week? MR W H J COETZEE I cannot recall specifically when but I do know that during the build-up process of the person we did indeed, or at least I did when I was there, provide medication in the form of headache tablets if she requested it. CHAIRPERSON And how long would that have been? MR W H J COETZEE That would have been during the reconstruction process. CHAIRPERSON So that would have been after the period of assault? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So during the period of assault you gave her nothing? MR W H J COETZEE No. CHAIRPERSON Did she complain of any pain? MR W H J COETZEE Her headaches, yes. CHAIRPERSON I am talking about the first week. MR W H J COETZEE No Chairperson I cannot recall anything. CHAIRPERSON She didn't complain of any kind of pain during the first week? MR W H J COETZEE She may have complained to somebody but it wasn't to me. CHAIRPERSON So during that period that she was in your custody she did not see a physician? MR W H J COETZEE No. CHAIRPERSON And if I recall your evidence correctly, there was no reason to seriously assault her after the first week? MR W H J COETZEE No. CHAIRPERSON So if anybody had seriously assaulted her after that week it would have been completely unjustifiable? MR W H J COETZEE Yes if I had not known about it. CHAIRPERSON And according to you would it have been necessary to assault her to such an extent that she would be rendered barely recognisable? MR W H J COETZEE No. CHAIRPERSON That would not have been justifiable. MR W H J COETZEE No. CHAIRPERSON Or to assault her to such an extent that she would not be able to walk by herself, that would not have been fair? MR W H J COETZEE No. CHAIRPERSON Could you see whether or not she had bled at any stage? MR W H J COETZEE I remember after the arrest at the Carlton, yes, I think that she had an injured lip or nose, but apart from that, no. CHAIRPERSON Was it a cut wound? MR W H J COETZEE It may have been a lip bite or something like that. I cannot qualify it. CHAIRPERSON Did she not bleed again after that? MR W H J COETZEE No she did not have any such open injury or wound. CHAIRPERSON If there had been a consistent assault on Miss Simelane after that first week almost until the time that she left the farm, would you have been aware of it? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So you could unequivocally tell us ...(intervention) MR W H J COETZEE ....that she was assaulted as we have described in a form of torture after which the reconstruction process began. There were more important things at stake. CHAIRPERSON So you can tell us unequivocally that after that first week there was absolutely no further serious assault on Miss Simelane in your presence? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, and as I have already indicated that I periodically slapped her during interrogations and the compilation of documents in which she participated with regard to certain aspects. CHAIRPERSON Yes but that was less serious. MR W H J COETZEE Yes that's correct. CHAIRPERSON Very well I understand. Thank you Mr Coetzee. ADV GCABASHE On the same point Mr Coetzee, when then would you say the interrogation of Nokuthula Simelane stopped? At the end of the first week? At the end of the second week? MR W H J COETZEE I would like to say it in the following - it was a continuous, we were getting information from her and supporting it as she wrote it herself in the form of several statements. Information subjects which were identified which she put in writing which we had to use for later tasking and the management of herself as well as the agents who were already in the field. Does that answer your question? ADV GCABASHE No it doesn't. The first week, the second week - I mean you have now explained in detail ...(intervention) MR W H J COETZEE The interrogation in terms ...(intervention) ADV GCABASHE The interrogation of Nokuthula Simelane you've explained that you managed to get certain information from her and you've also explained that at the time you had to do the rebuilding exercise, yes? The rebuilding exercise. Am I speaking too softly? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE Oh okay I will talk a bit louder. What I would like to know is when did the actual interrogation stop? She was at the farm for about four to five weeks. MR W H J COETZEE I would say, as I have said, after the first week, but there were periods when I slapped her myself where we differed in terms of the subjects which she had put down in writing. ADV GCABASHE Now these slaps and this disinformation she was giving you, you don't call that part of the interrogation? MR W H J COETZEE I would say yes. I'd say it was part of the interrogation. ADV GCABASHE This is precisely why I would like you to identify the period where you felt you had the material information you needed and when the rebuilding started, because your plan was to send her back to Swaziland. MR W H J COETZEE Yes that's correct Chairperson. That was done when I was there periodically along with Sergeant Mothiba or with Mr Pretorius or Sergeant Mong. We have to keep in mind that Simelane was willing to cooperate with us. She had certain requests surrounding her own personal and operational security, so it was done continuous from about the third week Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE So let's get this right Mr Coetzee. From the third week at the farm you no longer interrogated her? MR W H J COETZEE We were still busy. I don't know how you interpret it but with the set-up and the establishment of the inputs Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE I really would like to get this absolutely clear because you talk of a rebuilding and I am just trying to put that into perspective. I have assumed that with the rebuilding you no longer assaulted her. Is that a fair assumption? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE Right. Let's work backwards from the rebuilding because after rebuilding you released her, and that is correct as well? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE Let's work backwards to when the interrogation would have stopped when she was now just orientating herself to being part of your new unit. Can I just finish because I really want this crystal clear. At that stage she would no longer fear you; she would no longer feel intimidated by you; she would be able to speak to you about your plan; the plans you had for her, etc, etc. That's what I am trying to get right. MR W H J COETZEE I would say that periodically during the third week Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Now during these last two weeks in that case, because that leaves us with two weeks on the farm before you release her, what did you discuss? This rebuilding exercise. MR W H J COETZEE Her operational or her continual cross-border application as a source. That is what we discussed. ADV GCABASHE Right, now give us a little bit of detail on that aspect. MR W H J COETZEE It was communication; it was tasking ...(intervention) ADV GCABASHE Let me help you because what you are saying now you have said before in your evidence, let me just help you with specific questions. You for instance had two agents in the MK structures in Swaziland, Mr Mkhonza, Mr Langa, yes? MR W H J COETZEE Yes and others who were not mentioned. ADV GCABASHE Absolutely, absolutely. Now did you discuss, I'll start with these particular two whom we know, Mkhonza, Langa, did you discuss how they would be working with Simelane? MR W H J COETZEE Mr Mkhonza was not part of our programme Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE You see Mkhonza is of particular interest to me because that's the man she met at the Carlton Centre. MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson but our planning was on Langa. ADV GCABASHE So you are saying Mkhonza would never, ever contact MK Mpho again? Is this what you are saying? MR W H J COETZEE It could have happened in future Chairperson, but we planned everything around Langa. We brought in Langa to independently with myself, Mothiba and Langa to sit with her and talk to her. This joins up with the reason why later we left her with Langa before the final debriefing session and the instructions that were given before she departed. ADV GCABASHE So she knew Langa who was like her, an agent working for you? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE And she knew that she would be meeting Langa in Swaziland at some stage or the other? MR W H J COETZEE As one of the persons who would help to handle her, yes Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE And yet you did not ask Langa to assist in monitoring her movements once she got back to Swaziland. MR W H J COETZEE I think I've said it earlier on, any direct request in terms of this person or questions would have caused problems for the person herself because of the unknown to us Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE No I, I... MR W H J COETZEE Questions about the lady by Mr Langa in Swaziland was very, very dangerous for the lady at that stage Mr Chairman. ADV GCABASHE We are not talking about questions about the lady by Langa, we are talking about Langa knowing everything there is to know about Simelane; knowing where she lived, essentially; knowing her contacts, because those were his contacts after all; and in that way being able to keep you in touch with how she was faring as your new agent. You didn't put any of that in place. MR W H J COETZEE Can the question please be repeated Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE You see I'll tell you where my difficulty starts. My difficulty starts with Simelane being left across the border at Oshoek, right. MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE She could have done anything after that according to you. MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Now the way I understand Intelligence networks to operate from what I have heard in these hearings, is you would normally have a safeguard, a check here, a check there to make sure that the person who is working with you is in fact your person isn't doing something totally different. MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE In the instance of Simelane we haven't heard from you what steps you took to make sure that she was doing all of the things you had agreed with her about. MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson this is where I referred to in my evidence yesterday to the meetings, the appointments or the instruction as we mentioned yesterday was that make contact and afterwards lay low in terms of the group who manage you and task you. Continue with your own cell grouping whom you are a member of Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Let me give you another little example. If she was having a particular difficulty did you say to her you can reach Langa, who is local after all? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson I already mentioned my telephone number yesterday where she could have contacted me if there was any problems. If she encountered any problems which indicated that she could be identified and she could be connected to arrests and actions then she had to run. And we told all our agents this Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE With regard to other Intelligence services operating in Swaziland, Military Intelligence or any other units from the PWV area, who were you in contact with? Who did you co-ordinate your activities with? MR W H J COETZEE It was with head office Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Yes but Military Intelligence that was busy in Swaziland you may have had other units from the greater PWV area or even Eastern Transvaal operating there, who did you co-ordinate your activities with? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson all reports were put in writing and from time-to-time they were co-ordinating meetings. ADV GCABASHE The information you got from Simelane were you able to talk to Military Intelligence and say this is what we are told, do you know anything about this? Can you confirm this for us? MR W H J COETZEE I never liaised with Military Intelligence. I do not know where the reports that we drew up were sent to. ADV GCABASHE So all the information that you worked off you did not confirm with any other unit? I just used Military Intelligence as an example. MR W H J COETZEE It was in writing and it was sent to head office Chairperson. Head office circulated it. It was sent to the different departments. ADV GCABASHE And head office was Mr Schoon at the time? MR W H J COETZEE Yes amongst others Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Was Mkhonza in touch with Mpho after the arrest of Simelane? MR W H J COETZEE I can recall that we were slowly busy working out the handling programme with Langa and to bring in new persons in the structure across the border of whom Mkhonza did not know. ADV GCABASHE You haven't answered - really I was going to come to Langa. I just want Mkhonza ...(intervention) MR W H J COETZEE The question Chairperson I know that there was some occasion afterwards where Mr Mkhonza moved across the border but because of a motor vehicle accident and according to me that was the last opportunity that he was across the border. ADV GCABASHE So between the time of the car accident and the time of the arrest of Simelane or the detention of Simelane, how many times did you send Mkhonza in and out of Swaziland? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson with regard to Simelane this particular grouping I could say that possibly twice but according to me once. ADV GCABASHE Now was he able to come back and confirm any of the things you had learnt from Simelane? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE For example? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson, at the arrest of the first person shortly afterwards; the weapons which were channelled into the country for the purpose of target execution or actions against targets Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Then let's get to Langa, Langa was supposed to go and create the legend about the meeting between Mkhonza and Simelane, the plaster-of-paris story, yes? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE You tasked him to go and do that? MR W H J COETZEE Yes I did. ADV GCABASHE Did he come back with a report? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE And what was that? MR W H J COETZEE The scope, I cannot recall the scope of it but all that I know is that afterwards the credibility was such that Langa shortly afterwards in person was met at a point in Soweto after which we acted against that person, arrested that person with eight limpet mines as well as handgrenades and TNT. This person was given to the investigative team to deal with him further on. ADV GCABASHE And you are saying that that was because of original material from Simelane? Or are you saying it was Simelane and other people who gave you material that you then put together and were able to arrest particular people on? MR W H J COETZEE Yes it was a corroboration of all the information. ADV GCABASHE A range of sources? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE A range of sources? MR W H J COETZEE As I said directly and indirectly Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Just this "kop draai" exercise, how long would that normally take you? MR W H J COETZEE Some of the members are present Chairperson, depending on the person and depending on the target and depending on the person's personal capacities and circumstances, it varies from person to person and is based on his own situation or his acceptability within the MK structure Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE It essentially involved beating a person into submission and then rebuilding them and incorporating them in your structures? MR W H J COETZEE That was my modus operandi Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Let's just talk about safe houses for a minute. There were a number of safe houses in the PWV area? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE Now you said you in your evidence yesterday that you were not able to - there was no facility you could take Nokuthula Simelane to? MR W H J COETZEE That's correct Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Explain that because there's an article - just hold on a minute, your document, Exhibit T, has an article with a range of safe houses in this area. MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson those years there were not safe houses, only later it came about when Soweto was incorporated into the RS programme and for handlers and Intelligence units the capacity was built up to set up such houses, to hire these houses and to use these houses as offices. At that stage we had no, but no facilities available. The mere fact Chairperson that we worked at Custodum tells you, and should be clear to the Committee that it was risky to start with to have agents, to take agents to a police premises Chairperson. We had no, but no access in those years to safe houses at all. This only came about from 1987 or no from 1985 or 1986 we were allowed to make use of such premises. ADV GCABASHE So you used the quarters at the Norwood police quarters? MR W H J COETZEE Ja, and your own house as well. ADV GCABASHE Ja, but you actually lived at the Norwood Police quarters at the time. MR W H J COETZEE Yes Mr Chairman. ADV GCABASHE And these people who owned the farm are they family members of yours? MR W H J COETZEE Ja, family. ADV GCABASHE How were you related to them? MR W H J COETZEE Through my wife. ADV GCABASHE In-laws? MR W H J COETZEE Ja. ADV GCABASHE Then just finally on this business of leg-cuffing and handcuffing Nokuthula Simelane, you know I can understand the earlier period when you would leg-cuff her, handcuff because she was not one of you yet, but from about the third week you were satisfied that she now was going to do as you asked her to do. Just go over again why you continued to leg and handcuff her? MR W H J COETZEE Why I kept the leg irons on her Chairperson as I have said yesterday was one - certainty; and two, it was my agreement with her that at a later occasion I would remove the leg irons when we were away from the premises and with her return, placing back; that was my agreement, that was my modus operandi. I think Chairperson Mr Mkhonza, who is present, and Mr Veyi can tell you about a similar incident where the member was a member of a police unit. ADV GCABASHE So irrespective of the fact that a person had agreed to work with you, you would continue to keep that person in leg irons? MR W H J COETZEE At that stage there was no evidence. There was in words an agreement between myself and this person, but this person had to prove herself. ADV GCABASHE But this is precisely the point Mr Coetzee. This is the same person who you then immediately released back into Swaziland. One day she is in leg irons, the very next day she's back in Swaziland. This is the person who you have not had time to test in any way, whose loyalty you have not had time to test. MR W H J COETZEE As I have said previously that was my modus operandi. I facilitated it, or the person knew that I would remove the leg irons the day we moved away from the place and other members can also testify that that was modus operandi. That is the way I went about my work. And people differ in their way of work. ADV GCABASHE So you are saying, and correct me if I didn't understand the evidence, she would use the toilet outside in the veld, so up to the last day she was on the farm she would walk in these leg irons to the toilet in the veld and walk back again, because this was your agreement with her, that those leg irons would not come off until she left the farm? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson because there were instances where people had run away, yes Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE You needed interpreters during the interrogations, just a point I'd forgotten, what language did the interrogators use? MR W H J COETZEE English Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE But you needed interpreters? MR W H J COETZEE When we, or can I refer to an example, when by the means of Mothiba or through a member specifically surrounding the recruitment, the orientation and the future it was always better with the authoritative figure Mothiba, to allow them to communicate in their own language. ADV GCABASHE She had completed her first degree at university, she was fluent in English. MR W H J COETZEE That is true, that is why she wrote down her own inputs. ADV GCABASHE And yet you felt for recruitment purposes she needed to be addressed in her own language? MR W H J COETZEE This is when we discussed the future with her and when Sergeant Mothiba, as the father figure, the authoritative figure, would be in discussion with her. I can also imagine that with Langa's presence, who was a graduated person himself, they communicated in their own language. ADV GCABASHE Thank you, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just one moment may I just ask you this one aspect Mr Coetzee. Did you ever have anything else but the words of this person that she will cooperate with you? MR W H J COETZEE I am not following you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You told my colleague when you spoke of the leg irons and the handcuffs that the only thing that you had was the words of this person. MR W H J COETZEE Yes the words. CHAIRPERSON And that she had not proven herself ...(intervention) MR W H J COETZEE What I meant with this Chairperson she was not yet placed ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I understand what you mean with that but I want to ask you at any stage did you have anything else but the words of the person? MR W H J COETZEE Yes I would say Chairperson in terms of the first arrest where she indirectly and directly was involved. This was the infiltration where the members who have to give evidence before the Committee will say how they joined up with me while I was with Nokuthula and afterwards I went directly back to Johannesburg. And indirectly and directly she co-operated. CHAIRPERSON Maybe I should put the question more directly. Up to the stage when you let her go at Oshoek Border Post did you have anything else ...(intervention) MR W H J COETZEE At that stage I was to some extent, if I may put it this way, I was convinced that we will keep her co-operation on the grounds of what was in writing and what she had said and knowing that she knew that we are in possession of all documents in terms of certain individuals or groups who were disclosed by her. CHAIRPERSON And on the strength of her words? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, this was in writing. Some of these aspects were already evaluated and we knew it was the truth. CHAIRPERSON But the conviction which you had was because of the words that she gave you? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV DE JAGER I just want to have more clarity with regard to the transport of her from the farm, where exactly was she taken to? Where was she handed over in Potchefstroom or where? Where did you transport her to in the panel van? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson, Sergeant Mong will give evidence to that. We met her on the outskirts of Potchefstroom. Already at that stage we, myself and Supt Pretorius we were at another point with Langa. ADV DE JAGER I assume then from Rustenburg they drove to Potchefstroom. Is this past Ventersdorp? MR W H J COETZEE I believe so, that's the route. ADV DE JAGER You met them outside Potchefstroom? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Outside Potchefstroom there are two roads that lead to Johannesburg, the old Potchefstroom road that goes through Carltonville and the other one that comes directly south from Soweto, is that correct? MR W H J COETZEE That's correct. ADV DE JAGER Now where did you meet, where did you meet Mong? MR W H J COETZEE On the outskirts of Potchefstroom in the industrial area. ADV DE JAGER Now at this stage who was with Mong? MR W H J COETZEE I recall correctly Chairperson it was Sergeant Mothiba. ADV DE JAGER So the two of them transport the detainee from Thabazimbi to Potch? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV DE JAGER There you hand her over in your vehicle? MR W H J COETZEE No, in one of our vehicles, either mine or Supt Pretorius' vehicle, I cannot recall which vehicle was used that day. ADV DE JAGER And from there where was she taken to? MR W H J COETZEE By myself and Supt Pretorius with Langa, whom she already met was handed over to another vehicle directly. ADV DE JAGER Directly? MR W H J COETZEE Directly from the one vehicle to the other vehicle. ADV DE JAGER So you drove with your or Pretorius' vehicle and you hand her over to the other vehicle? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Where was that vehicle? MR W H J COETZEE That vehicle was also outside Potchefstroom in the close vicinity, if I can recall correctly close to the Vereeniging off-ramp, the Potchefstroom/Vereeniging off-ramp. ADV DE JAGER How far outside Potchefstroom? MR W H J COETZEE This was before the bridge, according to my estimation it was about seven kilometres outside Potchefstroom. ADV DE JAGER And is this on the southern road, this is the road back, in other words back to Johannesburg? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER That comes in south of Soweto? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER This is not the one where you drive over Carltonville? MR W H J COETZEE No Chairperson I don't know that road. ADV DE JAGER And were you present when she was handed over to Langa? Did Langa drive that vehicle? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Was Langa alone or was somebody with him? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Langa was alone Chairperson, because Mothiba at that stage, the other handler was with Sergeant Mong. ADV DE JAGER Where did she sit in that vehicle? MR W H J COETZEE From what I can recall she sat in front in the vehicle and it was his vehicle that he was using. ADV DE JAGER The vehicle to which you handed her over where in your or Pretorius' vehicle? MR W H J COETZEE She was on the back seat Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER She was not loaded into the boot? MR W H J COETZEE No Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER So from the panel van, where she could not see, she was transferred to a vehicle where she could identify her surroundings? MR W H J COETZEE Because of her own operational certainty we made her lie down on the back up to the place where we handed her over Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Did she still have handcuffs on at that stage? MR W H J COETZEE No Chairperson, I already received her without handcuffs from Sergeant Mong and Sergeant Mothiba. ADV DE JAGER During her detention at Thabazimbi we assume she was there for approximately four to five weeks is that correct? MR W H J COETZEE That's correct. ADV DE JAGER Can you estimate how long you spent there? MR W H J COETZEE That is very difficult because we were on a rotating basis. This was not the only aspect to which we attended to. We had several agents and we rotated on a continuous basis, but I was one of the primary persons. ADV DE JAGER Can you say you were there full-time for the first week? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, and afterwards a lot. ADV DE JAGER If you say a lot, do you go there and you stay there for a few days or do you go for a day and come back and go back again? MR W H J COETZEE I move in and I move out Chairperson. I sometimes slept over but by the final part of her presence there I slept there most of the time. ADV DE JAGER Do you know where Westonaria is? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV DE JAGER Do you know if she visited anybody at Westonaria? MR W H J COETZEE No. ADV DE JAGER I think Mr Lengene, page 413, says in his statement, paragraph 63 on page 412 "After Nokuthula is washed and dressed in new clothes she was handcuffed and leg-chained. She was put in a panel van with no windows at the back. We drove in a convoy to Westonaria". Then it's not clear, the following sentence does not follow. It seems that a page is missing here, but I am not sure but I am not sure if there's a page missing here. "Apparently by Willem Coetzee's brother, there she was taken to the servant's quarters room". Now it seems that the intention may be that they drove in a convoy to Westonaria and there they went to someone, who was probably your brother, where she was taken to the servant's quarters. MR W H J COETZEE I deny that Chairperson. I do not know what Lengene refers to. ADV DE JAGER Who is Sefuti? MR W H J COETZEE This was a member of the force. I don't know if he's still a member of the force and where he is. For a short period he was with us. ADV DE JAGER So he was a member of your - he was under your command? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Then he says "The last people I saw with Nokuthula was Willem Coetzee, Anton Pretorius and Sefuti". MR W H J COETZEE I have already said Chairperson where I have received her. I deny and I do not know what Lengene in this instance refers to. ADV DE JAGER But was Sefuti not present when you received her? MR W H J COETZEE Negative Chairperson. It was only the handling group as I have already stated, consisting of myself, Supt Pretorius, Sergeant Mong - this is where his involvement stopped, and Sergeant Mothiba and Sergeant Langa. ADV DE JAGER Mothiba's involvement stopped with Mong? MR W H J COETZEE Negative, Mothiba joined us in Johannesburg at the final debriefing and the transporting and the placing back of the particular person. ADV DE JAGER Hold on a moment. She is in Potchefstroom, she was handed over to Mong on the Vereeniging road, or to Langa. MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Where did Langa go with her? MR W H J COETZEE They spent some time Chairperson, it was regarding the operational side of the matter, the motivation, communication, how she had to work operationally ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Okay, how long was she in Langa's presence ...(intervention) MR W H J COETZEE Vehicle. ADV DE JAGER Langa's vehicle or with him, before she went back to Swaziland. MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson continually until the time that they departed. ADV DE JAGER Very well. They drive from this Vereeniging crossing, where do they go to? MR W H J COETZEE They moved in the direction of Johannesburg at a later stage. ADV DE JAGER Very well. They drove to Johannesburg, did they stay over in Johannesburg? MR W H J COETZEE No Chairperson, it was late afternoon, if I recall correctly it was between six and seven. We met them outside Soweto Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER So you joined them again, what was her condition then? MR W H J COETZEE She was in a good condition. ADV DE JAGER And she drives in the vehicle with you? MR W H J COETZEE She is uncuffed and she is with Langa in the vehicle Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER And from there where did you go to? MR W H J COETZEE They departed after we had discussion with her and they departed for Swaziland. ADV DE JAGER Directly? MR W H J COETZEE Directly, the same day. ADV DE JAGER The same day? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER So she did not stay over in Johannesburg with you? MR W H J COETZEE No Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee did you have a brother at that stage? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did he live in Westonaria? MR W H J COETZEE I don't know if it was Westonaria but it was on the mines. CHAIRPERSON Is it in that same vicinity? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, at a later stage in 1984, yes, Chairperson, 1985, 1985 yes he did live in Westonaria. CHAIRPERSON Did he have a house there? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson, and if I recall correctly I can point out the house, there were no servant quarters there. CHAIRPERSON You are convinced that Miss Simelane is deceased? MR W H J COETZEE If you can repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand you, you are convinced that Miss Simelane is deceased? MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson I cannot comment. The only comment I can offer is in this instance I cannot prove what I have said. I can make some assumptions based upon similar incidents. If I refer to this incident Chairperson I am still waiting for RS267 and 282 to come back. The information which I cannot prove says that they are dead. The one Quatro, the other one shot somewhere else. The way we know Supt Pretorius would later say, but this is some of the similar matters which we handled. CHAIRPERSON But in this instance you are convinced she was killed by her comrades in MK? MR W H J COETZEE They had reason to act against her Chairperson, as well as they had reason to act against the two members who were killed Chairperson. That is what I believe. CHAIRPERSON So you accept that she is dead? MR W H J COETZEE I believe on the grounds of several examples which I have just put to you. CHAIRPERSON I understand. ADV GCABASHE The last time you saw Langa and Nokuthula Simelane was where now? Are you saying it was somewhere near Soweto? MR W H J COETZEE Ja near Soweto. ADV GCABASHE At the police station? MR W H J COETZEE Negative Chairperson. A person that was recruited can never be brought to a police station because it would mean that we have identified the person. Langa was a deep cover agent, a member of the force whose identity was not known. Secondly Langa had used a vehicle which could not be connected with the police and it was registered, and I speak under correction, under his name Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Where did you last see them? MR W H J COETZEE Outside Soweto Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Just on the road? MR W H J COETZEE Where we sat under the trees at the rendezvous point if I may put it as that. ADV GCABASHE You had made a specific appointment to meet at that spot? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE What was the purpose of your meeting them for the very last time at that spot? MR W H J COETZEE If there were any problems to discuss the programme in general and the communication and the attitude and to wish her well with the certainty that if there were any problems we could handle it, we could manage it, and communication was the key to success, discipline and so forth as well as money that was handed over Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Now ...(indistinct) would have risen during Langa's last debriefing of Simelane? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE How long was that supposed to take? MR W H J COETZEE It was approximately, if I recall, an hour, maybe less than an hour. ADV GCABASHE And who were you with in the car? MR W H J COETZEE Myself, Pretorius, Mothiba, Mr Langa and Simelane. ADV GCABASHE And at what time would this have been when they departed to Swaziland? MR W H J COETZEE It was very late afternoon, I think between six and seven, they departed after seven o'clock Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE And did you discuss specifically at what point you should let her cross the border? MR W H J COETZEE Mothiba was an expert as to where the persons crossed and in the past with the other members present he had other people cross into Swaziland. ADV GCABASHE Was he going to go with her beyond the border? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE And when were you expecting him back to report to you? MR W H J COETZEE The following day Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE And is this what he did, report the next day? MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE How far did he go with her in Swaziland? MR W H J COETZEE He just accompanied her some distance inside I think, and I assume past the police quarters on the Swaziland side. ADV GCABASHE And he left her hiking on the road or something? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, and she went towards the road. ADV GCABASHE Did he indicate at what time they got to Swaziland? MR W H J COETZEE I cannot recall correctly, but I think it was in the early hours. ADV GCABASHE Early hours of the following morning? MR W H J COETZEE The morning, late that night, the morning she crossed into Swaziland Mr Chairman. ADV GCABASHE And your instruction to her was to walk or just to hike or just to find her way to wherever she was going to? MR W H J COETZEE Yes, from there the circumstances, if a vehicle was there or if a taxi was there, or if a taxi was there, and if she met anybody she had to move on her own. ADV GCABASHE Otherwise to walk if it was the early hours of the morning, she must walk to the nearest town, Babanyawayo(?) MR W H J COETZEE Yes. ADV GCABASHE And you say she was in a condition to do that, physical condition to do that? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson I am convinced of that. ADV GCABASHE Despite being in cuffs up to that very same morning? MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Mr Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON We will take the 15 minute adjournment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? MR VISSER Mr Chairman Mr van den Berg intimated to me that he wants to rectify a statement which he made to this witness. I have no objection to him doing that. MR LAMEY Mr Chairman I, after Mr van den Berg, I just also, instructions that I obtained as a result of the questioning of the Committee from my clients which I just want to put to Mr Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON Mr van den Berg. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Coetzee I put it to you that the arrest of Cheche took place on the 25th of March. My attention was brought to the fact that it was indeed on the 25th of May and I would like to put that to you, that it was actually the 25th of May 1984. MR W H J COETZEE Yes Chairperson, I will not be able to comment regarding the specific date. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lamey, what have you got? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Mr Chairman may I just deal firstly, Mr Coetzee has mentioned in his Exhibit T, paragraph 58, that there is a suggestion by Mr X that Simelane was murdered or killed and he said that he denies that. Initially I don't know who the Mr X is that he referred to, I assume it was in relation to the report, the newspaper report, the Sowetan, and I must just say that it is common cause that my client Mr Veyi was the person who spoke to that, well made, and he also said that in his supplementary application that he told the Sowetan as to what he knew at that stage. In all fairness to Mr Coetzee I just want to put to him exactly what has been stated in his Exhibit T, which I haven't done previously and that is that - Mr Coetzee may I proceed. Mr Coetzee the evidence will be that, if I could just get to the relevant passage, Mr Veyi in paragraph 8 of his Exhibit T, that will be annexure A, paragraph 8, page 6, I beg your pardon Exhibit S. He maintains that he participated in a discussion thereafter with Mothiba and that Mothiba told him that you and Pretorius had shot this lady, Miss Simelane, and that she was buried near Rustenburg. I am simply putting it to you that his evidence will be according to what was told to him by Mothiba. MR W H J COETZEE I deny that. MR LAMEY Then I would also like to put it to you that Mr Mkhonza will maintain that when he informed you about the instructions that he had received from Mpho he didn't know what the name of the woman who he was to meet at the Carlton Centre was. However, he did indeed tell you that it was a woman that he was going to meet. MR W H J COETZEE Chairperson according to my knowledge, as I have already testified, it was going to be an MK member of the underground structure. MR LAMEY Yes an MK member, but that it was a woman. MR W H J COETZEE I deny that. MR LAMEY Then it is not precisely clear to me from Exhibit T where you mention in paragraph 45 Simelane's orders from MK was to undertake target identifications with RS243 and RS269. We know that RS243 was Mkhonza, did you hear this from Simelane or did you hear this from Mkhonza? MR W H J COETZEE If I recall correctly this came from Simelane. MR LAMEY Because my instructions from Mr Mkhonza are that he knew nothing about this. And furthermore my instructions are that he was also involved, or that he knew about the explosions which had taken place at substations to which he referred. He also says that this had nothing to do with the information which was obtained from Simelane. MR W H J COETZEE It was within the context of cross-border tasking. MR LAMEY Then the other aspect, according to my instructions from my client, Mkhonza and Selamolela, are that they would know that it was your modus operandus and method that when you were busy with a turning action you would keep the person cuffed to the very end, and my instructions are that their evidence will differ from yours on that point, especially Mr Lengene who will maintain that whenever the person turned, or gave their co-operation they would be released and no longer cuffed. MR W H J COETZEE I deny that. MR LAMEY Insofar as what you maintain about your methodology they will give evidence that that was not your modus operandi. The further aspect has to do with the safe houses and that you maintain that there were no safe houses in 1983, my instructions are that there were safe houses that you used at Klipspruit or in the Klipspruit environment, among others Lengene was interrogated at such a safe house. MR W H J COETZEE That was the accommodation of a commander's member. MR LAMEY Were there any such houses? MR W H J COETZEE Yes later in the Klipspruit area such a facility was made available to us, but it was used primarily for the accommodation of members. MR LAMEY And then where you also testify with regard to the arrest of Justice Ngedi, or Cheche, my client maintains that that had nothing to do with Simelane and that this was the result of an information that agent SVT66 provided. MR W H J COETZEE I deny that. MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lamey. Re-examination Mr Visser. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Coetzee if we can just attempt to clarify a number of aspects you were asked by the Chairperson whether a point was reached at which continued assault would no longer assist in obtaining further information from Simelane. You responded to that and said that you consistently attempted to obtain in-depth information from her. Furthermore you added that at the end you assaulted her from time-to-time, can you recall that? MR W H COETZEE Chairperson I cannot recall everything. MR VISSER But can you remember what I just put to you? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Now what would the situation have been that caused you to slap her against the head from time to time near the end? MR W H COETZEE As a result of ambivalence of inputs. MR VISSER Mr Coetzee please simply answer in simple Afrikaans so that we can understand what you are saying. Why would it have been necessary for you to assault her near the end? MR W H COETZEE Chairperson that would be when her inputs differed. MR VISSER In other words when you caught her out, when you caught her out with different information? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Did that still happen towards the end? MR W H COETZEE To a certain extent, yes. MR VISSER And was the slap then intended to make her understand that if she wanted to return to the beginning there would once again be assaults or what was the intention? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER You also said that she was held in leg irons during the night, or at least just remind me here, the handcuffs were they removed during the day? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And the leg irons, she wore permanently? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Now the environment where the room was, the room that you referred to, how did that environment look? MR W H COETZEE It was a bushy area. MR VISSER So if she wanted to go to the toilet at night and she wasn't wearing leg irons what do you think may have happened? MR W H COETZEE She would have escaped. MR VISSER You were also questioned or it was put to you that all that you had to go on was her word that she would cooperate with the South African Police, is that correct? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER You also had other sources of information which could be used, one would assume, to control the information that she had provided. MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And did you indeed do this, did you have other information at your disposal or to your knowledge according to which you could control her information? MR W H COETZEE Yes at the office. MR VISSER But did you have it with you in your minds there where you were interrogating her? MR W H COETZEE No, not entirely. MR VISSER However, could you or could you not control or verify what she was telling you in light of existing information which you had? MR W H COETZEE We could do that at the office. MR VISSER And did you do that? MR W H COETZEE Yes on a continuous basis. MR VISSER And is it a sign when a person whom you are attempting to turn gives you information which correlates with other information, is that a sign of the willingness of a person to cooperate? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER With regard to the information you have consistently referred to in-depth information. In your world of espionage and counter-espionage as it appears from this case, if a person who was your captive did not provide all the information at their disposal, what would the possible consequences be? MR W H COETZEE It would place the person at a disadvantage, ultimately. MR VISSER I am speaking of you. If you only get half of the story what would that mean for you? MR W H COETZEE It would put us on a wild goose chase. MR VISSER There is an application before the Committee from the deceased Mr Lengele in which he applies for amnesty, you are aware of that? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And you have also applied for amnesty with regard to the abduction of a person by the name of Lengene from Botswana and the assault of this person? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Is that the same person? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Were you aware of the fact, as it appears now, that Mr Duma Nkosi indeed conveyed information to MK indicating that Miss Simelane had disappeared when you arrested her? MR W H COETZEE I am unaware of that. MR VISSER And were you aware of the close relationship that existed between Mpho and Mr Nkosi? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER Which would have resulted that your cover-up regarding him would not have worked, are you aware of that? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER Did you at that stage when you fabricated this cover story in which Mr Nkosi would be involved did you believe that this would serve as an excuse to Simelane which she could give to her commanders which would explain why she was away for such a long time? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER The Chairperson also asked you, you have now abducted Simelane, and your objective is to turn her, what would happen if somewhere along the way you had realised that she wasn't going to cooperate, that you couldn't trust her and that it was extremely clear that she was not going to cooperate, what would happen to her then? MR VISSER You then answered and stated that there was the possibility of prosecuting her, is that correct? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Were there also other options? MR W H COETZEE yes. MR VISSER What were they? MR W H COETZEE To release her. MR VISSER You were at that stage in possession of, and you referred to it when you answered the question, you were in possession of an affidavit which she herself compiled. MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Would that have been something with which you could have threatened her by releasing her and saying that you would make this available, what was the position? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER So in other words this wasn't something that she would have accepted lightly after four to five weeks to simply be released? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Without any cover-up? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Commissioner Gcabashe asked you about this precise point whether or not it ever occurred to you that MK, during this period of time, may have developed a suspicion, may have become suspicious regarding her, did that ever occur to you? MR W H COETZEE It is possible. MR VISSER I am asking whether it occurred to you. MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Now at the rendezvous point there was talk of a cigarette box which you referred to which should have been on a table. MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER In Bundle 2, page 420, Mr Mkhonza stated that his arrangement with persons in Swaziland was that he would meet a person at the Carlton Centre - that's paragraph 2 Chairperson, page 420, right at the top - and that he was given instructions by an MK commander, Mpho, to wear a yellow shirt and brown trousers by means of which he would be identified at the rendezvous, do you recall that? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER But you do not deny that it may have been so? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER During the course of the morning certain questions were put to you, and I would just like to ask you about a few of those questions. Commissioner Gcabashe asked you a question about when the interrogation phase came to an end and the reconstruction phase began. And in this comparison there has also been mention of assaults. As I recall you maintain that it was continuous process from beginning to end. Are you then saying that you are not capable of saying whether or not there was a certain point at which you claimed that they may have stopped assaulting her in order to obtain information from her. MR W H COETZEE There was a point. MR VISSER And what point was that? MR W H COETZEE If I recall correctly I would say it was after a period of plus/minus three weeks. MR VISSER Three weeks. Would that be the three weeks that you referred to when you responded to the question? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And then it was no longer necessary for you to obtain information from her because you were satisfied that you had all the information that she had at her disposal. MR W H COETZEE We were still in the process of receiving certain inputs from her, yes. MR VISSER Mr Coetzee can we just begin from the beginning. You say that after three weeks the interrogation stopped, is that what you just said? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Did you then have all the information from her that you believed to be at her disposal? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER Very well, what did you do then in order to obtain the information which you still believe she held at her disposal? MR W H COETZEE We tasked her to put this in writing. MR VISSER Don't you regard this as part of the interrogation? MR W H COETZEE No, no, Chairperson. MR VISSER So if she wrote it was not part of the interrogation according to your perspective? MR W H COETZEE That's correct. MR VISSER The other question put to you by Commissioner Gcabashe, about which I would like to examine you, is that she referred to the normal thing that one would have expected and that would be the existence of checks and balances, that provision would normally have made and one would assume this, we who know nothing of espionage would simply assume this, that you would have established a monitor action to monitor her in Swaziland after her replacement there, that is now Miss Simelane, was such a monitor action ever devised or established by you? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And what was that monitor action? MR W H COETZEE There was a multiplicity of agents in Swaziland. MR VISSER And what about that? MR W H COETZEE Their movements would be reported according to the normal procedure by them. MR VISSER Did you give any agents in Swaziland the special order or instruction to look out specifically for her and to monitor her? MR W H COETZEE No, for various reasons. MR VISSER Well give us one or two. MR W H COETZEE One can only task an agent in terms of the access available to him. MR VISSER Yes. MR W H COETZEE The agents didn't have that kind of access within that milieu. MR VISSER Maybe just return, I am trying to understand what you have told me. You said that there were agents in Swaziland. MR W H COETZEE Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER I just want to know from you whether you specifically tasked or requested any one of those agents to monitor her? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER Was there any particular reason for that? MR W H COETZEE They had no access. MR VISSER And when you speak of access what are you referring to? MR W H COETZEE That would be that they do not have access to a determined group of people. ADV GCABASHE If I might just interrupt, then what is the monitoring action that you did set up, which was your first response to your Advocate's re-examination? MR VISSER When I asked you a few moments ago whether or not you took any actions to monitor her movements your response was, yes. Now we just want to know what this action was that you took to monitor her. MR W H COETZEE That was by means of the appointments. MR VISSER Were those the only monitoring actions? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Did you have anybody standing on a corner somewhere near where she lived to watch her and monitor her movements where she would go in the morning, where she would spend the day, when she would return and so forth? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER Then the final question from Commissioner Gcabashe was whether you later made enquiries, for instance with the Security Branch in the Eastern Transvaal whether they had heard anything about what happened to Miss Simelane? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER So would Eastern Transvaal Security Branch not, for example, have had a file on Miss Simelane? MR W H COETZEE It is possible. MR VISSER Did you make enquiries and ask whether or not they knew anything about her? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER Why not? MR W H COETZEE That case was not co-ordinated. MR VISSER What do you mean when you say it was not co-ordinated? MR W H COETZEE What I mean by that Chairperson is that we didn't go specifically to the Eastern Transvaal and make enquiries regarding this specific case. MR VISSER But you accepted that something had happened to her? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER I am not certain whether or not I heard your evidence correctly when you were questioned about the following, but Mr Mkhonza maintains that after Miss Simelane was grabbed he placed his leg and his arm in plaster of paris so that he would have an excuse to indicate why he did not honour the appointment with her. Are you aware of that? Do you know about it? Can you remember it? What was the situation? MR W H COETZEE No I cannot recall it. MR VISSER But you would not deny it? MR W H COETZEE No I wouldn't. MR VISSER Now let us return once again to the issue of the cuffs. When you were later once again examined on the leg irons by Ms Gcabashe and asked why it was that the leg irons were never removed you said there were three reasons. One was certainty in order to prevent her escape; secondly, it was your modus operandi and thirdly it was the agreement with Miss Simelane. Would that be the agreement to which you referred to earlier which denoted that she was concerned about the fact that the fact that she was working with the police should not be circulated too widely, was that to keep up appearances? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER I have made a note here to ask you the following, but now I don't even know what the answer is. Do you have a brother? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Does this brother live on the West Rand? MR W H COETZEE He is deceased. MR VISSER Did he ever live on the West Rand? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER In 1983 did he live in Westonaria? MR W H COETZEE I don't know where exactly he lived in 1983, however I can confirm that after '85 he did reside in the Westonaria suburb. MR VISSER Is it possible that he lived in or near Westonaria in a house where there was servant's quarters? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Well be that as it may do you have any knowledge that Mr Mong and Mr Lengene, that Mr Mong apparently together with Lengene would have been with your brother, do you know anything about that? MR W H COETZEE No I don't know anything about that. MR VISSER However you have just said that Sefuti was not involved in the final handling of her legend and her replacement in Swaziland, was he involved? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER Just in response to Mr Lamey's question with regard to safe houses, Commissioner Gcabashe referred you to the article that you attached to your affidavit, that would be Exhibit T, and reference is made to safe houses. This has to do with what was pointed out by Mr Veyi to certain informers and if I recall correctly this is the report in the Sowetan. Well my learned friend Mr Lamey says he doesn't think it was Mr Veyi, but it doesn't really matter because what is of relevance Chairperson, is that reference is made to safe houses. Now I can read a date, 1995, but I can't do better than that on this article, you said Mr Coetzee, in the beginning, that you didn't have safe houses in order to launch a project such as the turning action of a cadre. MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And it was put to you by Mr Lamey that in the Klipspruit area Mr Lengene had been interrogated at a safe house after he had been abducted, can you recall that question? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER MR W H COETZEE That would have been 1982. MR VISSER Bundle 2, page 235 Chairperson. I see that you say there that it was approximately February '82. Did you then have a safe house at Klipspruit? MR W H COETZEE It was a house for accommodation. MR VISSER So in other words what are you saying, accommodation of who? MR W H COETZEE Accommodation of members.... MR VISSER So in other words - let me ask you, was this a house, a flat or a room? MR W H COETZEE It was a semi-detached house. MR VISSER And was this used for the accommodation of police members? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER And was there one of those that was available at that stage that you used for the abduction? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER I am talking about the stage when Lengene was abducted? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER Where did you question Lengene? MR W H COETZEE In Rustenburg. MR VISSER Not at Klipspruit? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER But was Lengene later accommodated there? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Did Lengene join the police at a stage? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER Was this before or after he joined the police? MR W H COETZEE He became a member of the force shortly after that. MR VISSER And then he was accommodated there? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER In other words you would say that this was not a safe house? MR W H COETZEE No. MR VISSER And when did the safe houses appear for the first time? You referred to Soweto's incorporation in the programme, in the RS programme, what exactly does that mean? MR W H COETZEE Where we received or had authorisation that there should be a specific house which was obtained or rented for the purpose of being used as a safe house. MR VISSER When did Soweto become part of this programme? MR W H COETZEE I would assume that it was in 1985. MR VISSER In either event it was after this incident? MR W H COETZEE Yes. MR VISSER If you had a safe house at your disposal, near Soweto, what would the reason have been for you going to Northum? MR W H COETZEE If we had a safe house at the local Security Branch then there would no reason to go all the way to Northum, that's correct. MR VISSER And you had to obtain permission for the use of this room in the house at Northum in order to perform this turning action? MR W H COETZEE That's correct. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Coetzee you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED