amntrans JOHN FREDERICK WILLIAMS 1999-05-10 JOHANNESBURG 10 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53364&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990518jh.htm MR VISSER Mr Chairman with your leave I wish to call Mr Williams. We have prepared a statement for him which I typed over the weekend and which my attorney made me retype last night, so you have a redrafted statement for him which will be Exhibit U, I believe Mr Chairman, which we beg leave to hand up to you. It's a brief statement. This witness' evidence won't be long Chairperson. It's U... ADV DE JAGER Was that the letter of the 4th ...(indistinct) MR VISSER Oh yes, oh yes, I am sorry, absolutely right. Civil Service of Swaziland, yes. And then this will - thank you Commissioner de Jager, then this will be Exhibit V, I am sorry Mr Chairman. EXHIBIT V HANDED UP MR LAMEY Sorry Mr Chairman just before we continue with the witness I in the meantime got instructions from Mr Veyi, the article which my learned friend has referred to, I wasn't sure when he spoke about it whether it's the same but it is. Mr Veyi confirms that he is there the Mr X also referred to in that article about the pointing-out of the safe houses. JAMES FREDERICK WILLIAMS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Williams you are also an applicant for amnesty in the current proceedings and your participation or your involvement is not as great as that of the previous witness. We shall get to that involvement soon, but it regards the abduction and detention of Nokuthula Simelane. MR WILLIAMS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Your application appears in Bundle 3 on page 581 to 592, is that correct? MR WILLIAMS That is correct. MR VISSER And do you confirm the correctness of the contents thereof? MR WILLIAMS I do Chairperson. MR VISSER And you have studied Exhibit A, the general background document? MR WILLIAMS That's correct. MR VISSER And did you study this thoroughly? MR WILLIAMS I did Chairperson. MR VISSER And do you concur that the contents thereof, according to your knowledge, is correct? MR WILLIAMS Yes. MR VISSER And that you as that this be incorporated with your evidence? MR WILLIAMS That is correct. MR VISSER And you also request that the amnesty applications as it appears thus far of Supt Pretorius and Supt Coetzee, Mong and W/O Ross also be considered with your application, is that correct? MR WILLIAMS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Are you still in the police force? MR WILLIAMS Yes I am. MR VISSER What is your rank? MR WILLIAMS Superintendent. MR VISSER Where are you stationed? MR WILLIAMS At Potchefstroom. MR VISSER In which division? MR WILLIAMS (No audible reply) MR VISSER Now may I ask you to look at page 2 please, paragraph 2 you said that in 1983 you were part of the Intelligence Unit at Security Branch Soweto, and you served under the command of Supt Coetzee. Then he was a lieutenant. MR WILLIAMS That's correct. MR VISSER And what was your rank then? MR WILLIAMS I was a sergeant Chairperson. MR VISSER He has given evidence here, you have heard his evidence which is said in paragraph 3 that an MK courier was on his way to South Africa and had instructions to make contact and to transport instructions and that a meeting with whom we know is now Mr Mkhonza was arranged for this courier to meet at Carlton Centre, is that correct? MR WILLIAMS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER You were informed that this meeting between Mr Coetzee and Brigadier H Muller was discussed with a commander. MR WILLIAMS That's correct. MR VISSER And a meeting was held at the Custodum flats where on the roof of the 10th floor you had servant's quarters that you used as an office. MR WILLIAMS That's correct. MR VISSER And at this meeting certain information was given to you? MR WILLIAMS Yes. MR VISSER At paragraph 5 could you please put it to the Committee? MR WILLIAMS Certainly. At a meeting all the members, who I will refer to later, was informed by Supt Coetzee that it was decided by Brigadier Muller that the MK courier during the meeting would be abducted and we had to immediately start turning this person. I realised that this was unlawful to arrest a person, to turn this person without this person being charged or without this person being held in detention, according to the correct regulations. At the same time the Security Branch could not oppose the revolutionary onslaught without information from the enemy. We were forced to launch such actions and I saw that it was within my tacit authorisation. I associated myself with the action on this particular day in approximately September 1983. The movements of the abovementioned MK courier was monitored by the following persons whose names I can recall at the Carlton Centre. It was myself, Supt Coetzee; Supt Pretorius; W/O Mong; Sergeant Radebe; Sergeant Selamolela; Constable Veyi and Sergeant Mothiba. MR VISSER Current W/O Ross, we don't know what his rank was then. MR WILLIAMS He was a sergeant. MR VISSER You don't mention him here. Shall we accept that he was there? MR WILLIAMS Definitely Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you recall this from later recollection? MR WILLIAMS Yes. MR VISSER If you refer to RS234 you can refer to Mkhonza and when you refer to RS269 you can refer to Sgt Langa. Can you continue with paragraph 8? MR WILLIAMS Certainly. Sergeant Mkhonza met her the particular day. Only with the meeting it was realised that the MK courier was a female person. MR VISSER Did you know this before the meeting at the Carlton Centre that the courier would be a woman? MR WILLIAMS Definitely not Chairperson. She went to the ...(tape side A ends) ...and afterwards we left for Norwood . On our arrival we withdrew from the flats there and according to instructions from Supt Coetzee we went about some other tasks. Later the same day Supt Coetzee asked me to accompany him to the house of Brigadier Muller because he did not know where it was. I accompanied him and we had a discussion with the Brigadier. MR VISSER That was a Saturday? MR WILLIAMS Yes I think that's common cause. MR VISSER So this was the Saturday afternoon? MR WILLIAMS That's correct. Supt Coetzee reported to Brigadier Muller. The latter decided that the matter had to be discussed with head office. Afterwards we went to Brigadier Schoon at head office and he was informed and that it was told to him that the idea was to turn Simelane. Brig Schoon gave his permission for this. MR VISSER Was an agreement reached telephonically? Were you present during this discussion at the office? MR WILLIAMS Yes I was partially present. MR VISSER Did you have anything else to do with Miss Simelane? MR WILLIAMS Absolutely nothing. MR VISSER May I just ask you, there have been some allegations that Mr Coetzee and/or others would have killed Simelane, do you have any knowledge which indicates that the police could have killed Miss Simelane? MR WILLIAMS I have no such knowledge Chairperson. MR VISSER Did you receive any information whether she was recruited as a source or not? MR WILLIAMS They did not discuss it with me but I received the message that they were using her, yes Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you continue with paragraph 13. MR WILLIAMS Very well. The actions and omissions which I am guilty of I have done in the execution of my official duties under instruction of a senior officer whose instructions I was obliged to obey. I did this as part of the opposition of the struggle and it was aimed at the supporters of a liberation movement. What I had done I had done to protect the government and the National Party and to oppose the revolutionary onslaught. MR VISSER You say you were a sergeant at this stage, how long before this incident, from approximately September 1983, how long were you then with the Intelligence Division under Mr Coetzee? MR WILLIAMS Chairperson it was approximately two weeks. MR VISSER Two weeks, you were very new in the Intelligence Division. MR WILLIAMS Yes that's correct. MR VISSER And you had an instruction which you had to comply with? MR WILLIAMS Yes. MR VISSER At any stage did you physically assault or touch Miss Simelane? MR WILLIAMS No I never touched her at all, not at all Chairperson. MR VISSER So it is obvious then that you had no comprehension as to Mr Coetzee's method that he went about his work? MR WILLIAMS No Chairperson. MR VISSER So you request amnesty for your involvement in this incident. If we could refer to page 2 as it would seem from the evidence it is conspiracy to abduct Simelane, and you say you knew it was an unlawful act; and then the abduction of the mentioned Simelane; as well as the assistance in this act and the unlawful arrest and detention of this person; and then defeating the ends of justice with regard to the omission and the true facts of the matter, as well as defeating the ends of justice or any other offence or delict emanating from your evidence, is that correct? MR WILLIAMS That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Mr Lamey questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Mr Williams paragraph 7 of this Exhibit U, you mention a list of persons who were present at the Carlton Centre. MR WILLIAMS That's correct. MR LAMEY With the arrest my instructions from Mr Veyi is that he was not present there and that he later joined that arrest at Norwood. MR WILLIAMS It is possible Chairperson. MR LAMEY So you concede that you might be mistaken here by mentioning his name here? MR WILLIAMS Yes I may be mistaken. MR LAMEY I would like to ask you, before I hand in paragraph 5 you say at a meeting the members who I will refer later to, is this "later" referred to, is this the members that you mention in the list at the bottom here and on the next page, paragraph 7? MR WILLIAMS That's correct. So what you are saying is Veyi and Selamolela were present at the meeting where it was discussed that this MK courier would be abducted to start turning her? MR WILLIAMS That's how I recall it Chairperson. MR LAMEY MR WILLIAMS I may be mistaken as well. MR LAMEY I may be wrong but my recollection of Mr Coetzee's evidence is indeed that the black members were not present during the whole, or were not aware of this turning action during this whole operation, if I understand his evidence correctly. MR WILLIAMS How I can answer you Chairperson is that the persons who were present were informed as to what their tasks were and everybody knew what his task was. Although who exactly was there I cannot say with great certainty. But that everybody received his specific task, that I can recall. MR LAMEY Is it not possible that during this discussion, if such a discussion did indeed take place, can you definitely recall that this issue of turning was discussed at that occasion, was this before the arrest or was it only later after the arrest when this was cleared with Brigadier Schoon at head office that that was the moment when it was decided on the turning action? Or was it from the initial process? MR WILLIAMS I recall that we definitely knew that we would turn her and I also drew the inference from the instructions which we received. MR LAMEY But what you are saying is that some of the black members, Selamolela and Veyi, that they were not present and that they would have not known about this turning action? MR WILLIAMS I can honestly not recall who exactly were present. MR LAMEY I put it to you that my instructions are that on paragraph 3 on page 566 he says that he was never present with any briefing, he was never personally briefed and he did not know what would happen. He received instruction that he had to be present at the Carlton Centre and to take her to the police station, the arrest, where the seeming arrest would take place. MR WILLIAMS I cannot argue with his version. MR LAMEY I don't think there is anything further. Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lamey. Mr van den Berg? NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Thank you. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Just one moment I have omitted something Chairperson, there is something that bothers me. Can you say with conviction that there was no communication, that the person who Mr Mkhonza was to meet in the Carlton Centre would be a woman? MR WILLIAMS Definitely not Chairperson, but to give you an idea of what happened there my task was to keep Mr Mkhonza in my vision and we did not know that he was to - I was not aware that he was to meet a woman Chairperson. MR LAMEY But he says that he knew he was to meet a woman and this is how he communicated it to Coetzee. For your identification it would be important to know that he was to meet a woman, or is that not the proper inference to draw? MR WILLIAMS I am convinced that we did not know it was to be a woman. MR LAMEY Do you not think that if such communication was conveyed from Mkhonza to Coetzee that it was important for Coetzee to know what the sex of the person would be? MR WILLIAMS I would have been important for the action Chairperson because we could have planned it somewhat different. But because we did not know who we would expect and that is why we amended the planning for the abduction as such, so that we could handle any situation and we were not aware of her sex. MR LAMEY No further questions thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Thabethe. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Just one question Mr Chairman. Mr Williams when earlier on you said you had received a message that Nokuthula was being used by the police where did you receive this message from? MR WILLIAMS The colleagues whom I worked with told me a week or two later after she was abducted told me that they were using her. I drew the inference that they were withdrawing information from her. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabethe. Was it Brigadier Schoon who authorised this whole operation? MR WILLIAMS That's correct. CHAIRPERSON What did he say, what can you do? MR WILLIAMS I was not present the whole time when the discussion took place in the office between Muller and Brigadier Schoon and what I can recall is that he authorised the turning of her. CHAIRPERSON What did he say? MR WILLIAMS I cannot recall Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did he say you could kill the person? MR WILLIAMS No he never at any stage said something like that. CHAIRPERSON Did he say you can assault the person? MR WILLIAMS No. CHAIRPERSON He definitely did not say that? MR WILLIAMS Not at all. He said we can continue with the operation but he did not give any permission to that nature. CHAIRPERSON Any other questions? ADV DE JAGER And this was after the abduction took place? MR WILLIAMS That's correct. ADV DE JAGER The same day? MR WILLIAMS Yes, the same afternoon. ADV DE JAGER And the abduction took place without Schoon's knowledge? MR WILLIAMS Correct. ADV DE JAGER And then you went over and he said Muller could continue to recruit her or to turn her or whatever, I don't know what term was used. Is there a specific term that was used or was the word "turn her" used? MR WILLIAMS Yes Chairperson the word "turn her" was used. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Visser? NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON You are excused Mr Williams. MR WILLIAMS Thank you Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Chairperson I understand there is a threat of cutting in on our lunch time. I now see it's six minutes past. Perhaps we could take the lunch now and reconvene again at what, twenty to? CHAIRPERSON Yes we will take the luncheon adjournment for 30 minutes and we will reconvene at 13H40. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS