amntrans JACOBUS EVERADUS ROSS 1999-05-10 JOHANNESBURG 10 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53365&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990518jh.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Visser. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. We call Inspector Ross, Exhibit W. It's been placed before you. JACOBUS EVERADUS ROSS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Ross you are the applicant in this matter. Your application is in Bundle 3, page 548 to 589, do you confirm the correctness of the content thereof? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER You have seen Exhibit A, is there any part thereof which is not of application to you? MR ROSS No. MR VISSER Do you also wish that the evidence which is referred to in there as well as the content thereof be incorporated into your amnesty application when evaluated? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER You also request that the Amnesty Committee inspect the amnesty applications of Coetzee, Pretorius, Mong and Williams, is that correct? MR ROSS That's correct. MR VISSER In paragraph 7 of your application form where it referred to member or support of a political party you wrote "not applicable" what is the correct situation? MR ROSS I was a member of the National Party and a supporter thereof. MR VISSER A supporter. Now in this matter you acted very peripherally, you acted under the command of Mr Coetzee, is that correct? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER In 1983 you were a member of the Intelligence Unit of the Security Branch of Soweto and under its direct command, is that correct? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER In your application you confirmed the knowledge that we already have regarding the information of the MK courier who was to have come in, is that correct? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER And that a meeting was arranged at the Carlton Centre between her and Mkhonza? MR ROSS Yes that's correct. MR VISSER You were also informed that this meeting was to take place and how or what action would be taken there beforehand by Brigadier Muller who was your overall commander? MR ROSS Yes that's correct. MR VISSER Can you recall that a meeting took place in the Custodum flats in Norwood? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER Were you present? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER Can you recall whether Mr Selamolela was present? MR ROSS I cannot confirm that. MR VISSER And Mr Veyi? MR ROSS I cannot confirm that either. MR VISSER As far as your recollection goes the persons who were present there and who participated in the action are set out in paragraph 7, but you say that you are not certain of everybody? MR ROSS That is correct. MR VISSER What happened during the meeting was that you were informed about this MK courier, is that correct? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER And a decision was made by Brigadier Muller that there would be a grab action and not a usual arrest. MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER Would you please continue from paragraph 6. MR ROSS: "I realised that it was not legitimate to arrest a person simply to execute a turning action without this person being prosecuted or legitimately detained in terms of the proper legislation. Simultaneously the Security Branch could not combat the revolutionary onslaught without information about the enemy, thus we were obliged to launch such actions and I regarded this as something which fell within my tacit authorisations. I associated myself with the action. On that particular day in September 1983 the movements of the said MK courier were monitored by the following members whose names I can remember. This took place at the Carlton Centre in Johannesburg". MR VISSER That was yourself, Supt Coetzee; Supt Pretorius; W/O Mong; Supt Williams; Sergeant Radebe; Sergeant Selamolela; Constable Veyi and Sergeant Mothiba, is that what you remember? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER Is it possible that Mr Veyi may not have been there? MR ROSS That is correct. MR VISSER You say that's correct? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER Was he not there or can you not confirm it? MR ROSS I cannot confirm it. MR VISSER Mkhonza met a person. is that correct? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER Where were you? MR ROSS I was on the same level as the restaurants, I was in front of the restaurant. MR VISSER Did you see who the person was, or what gender the person was? MR ROSS I noticed that this was a female person. MR VISSER Did you know beforehand that it would be a woman? MR ROSS No. MR VISSER What did you do when you saw it was a woman? MR ROSS At that stage we moved on ...(intervention) MR VISSER No I am talking about you, what did you do? MR ROSS I moved on to the basement level of the parking area where we informed Supt Pretorius that it was a woman. MR VISSER And what did you do then? MR ROSS We ...(intervention) MR VISSER Mr Ross I don't want to know what "we" did, I want to know what you did. MR ROSS I undertook further observation. MR VISSER And where did you do this? MR ROSS In the vicinity of the restaurant. MR VISSER So then you went back to the restaurant? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER You went down especially to tell Pretorius that it was a woman and then you went back up to the restaurant? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER And then? MR ROSS Upon my return I noticed that the woman and Mkhonza had already gotten up and moved down to the elevator. MR VISSER What did you do then? MR ROSS I moved down with the stairs to the parking area. MR VISSER Was anybody with you? MR ROSS It was me and Supt Williams. MR VISSER And when you arrived there what did you find? MR ROSS We saw that the woman had already at that stage been caught by Mr Pretorius, Mr Coetzee and Mr Radebe, or at least that she had been arrested and that they were busy putting her into the vehicle. MR VISSER Very well. Then you left there in your vehicles and you were given an order by Mr Coetzee to go and undertake further work. MR ROSS That's correct. MR VISSER And furthermore you had nothing to do with the operation? MR ROSS That's correct. MR VISSER Will you go on with paragraph 11. MR ROSS: "The acts and omissions which I committed in execution of my official duties under the command of a higher officer whose orders I was obliged to execute. I committed this as part of my opposition to the struggle. It was aimed against supporters of a liberation movement. What I did I did in order to protect the government and the interests of the National Party and to combat the revolutionary onslaught". MR VISSER You then request amnesty insofar as it may appear from your evidence that you were participant to conspiracy to abduct Miss Simelane; aiding and abetting as well as illegitimate arrest or detention; as well as defeating the ends of justice or any other offence or delict emanating from your evidence, is that correct? MR ROSS Yes. MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Mr Ross if I look at the members who were involved in the grab action or the "arrest" at the Carlton Centre, compared to the members who were later involved in the interrogation on the farm as well it would appear that it was mostly the white members who were tasked with the arrest at the Carlton Centre, and that the black members were involved in the guarding and later interrogation after the grab action? MR ROSS The grab action was planned so that Coetzee, Pretorius and Radebe would grab her. MR LAMEY No I am speaking in entirety. You were involved in the grab action along with Williams but that is as far as your involvement went? MR ROSS That's correct. MR LAMEY You were not involved later on in this matter. MR ROSS No. MR LAMEY If you look at the list of applicants we can see that several black members were later involved in the interrogation period, am I correct? MR ROSS Would you please repeat your question. MR LAMEY If we look at the list of names it would appear to me that several white members were tasked to handle the grab action ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER But on the list it indicates that there were five white members and four black members of which it would appear that Mr Veyi was not present. MR ROSS That's correct. MR LAMEY Well let me ask you this way. Do you know why you were only to be involved in the grab action? MR ROSS I also had administrative duties that I had to attend to that is why I was not as deeply involved. MR LAMEY Why did you go and tell Pretorius specifically that it was a woman, what was the meaning of that? MR ROSS Also to state that contact had been made between Mkhonza and the courier. Not specifically no, we went to inform him that the courier had made contact and that it was a woman. MR LAMEY So you would actually correct that then? MR ROSS Yes. MR LAMEY Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Mr van den Berg questions? NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe? NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON You are excused Mr Ross. WITNESS EXCUSED