amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-11 JOHANNESBURG 11 NORMAN L. MKHONZA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53369&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990519jh.htm MR VISSER Mr Chairman, that brings me to the end of the witnesses for, the applicants for whom I appear. I will now gladly hand over to my learned friend, Mr Lamey. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser, Mr Lamey? MR LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman, I am calling Mr Mkhonza. It will be more easier if he could be sitting next to me, thank you Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER In which language would you give evidence? MR MKHONZA English. NORMAN L. MKHONZA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Mr Chairman, I have made reference in the introductory address to the Committee about an initial amnesty application which was submitted to the TRC which is not part of the Bundle, I beg leave to hand up that document. What is contained in the Bundle on page 414 and further onwards, it is a supplemented application. As I have previously stated, we are really going to rely on the supplemented version. The first application made reference to a statement to the Attorney General and I merely wish to hand it up for the sake of completeness, a copy which I have obtained of this statement from the Attorney General's office as well as then the initial form in which the application was submitted. CHAIRPERSON So it is two documents? Where are we now, X, Y and Z? MR LAMEY So Exhibit Z1 and Z2? CHAIRPERSON Yes, which one would be ... MR LAMEY Z1 would be the form of the application I suggest and Z2 would be the statement. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mkhonza, is it correct that an initial application was submitted to the TRC which is now before you, marked as Exhibit Z1, is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct. MR LAMEY You have signed this document, is that correct? MR MKHONZA Yes, I did. MR LAMEY In this initial application with regard to the particulars that had been requested for which you seek amnesty, you refer in paragraph 9(a)(i) to the disappearance of Nokuthula Simelane and you refer to a statement in the possession of the Attorney General, is that correct? The document now shown to you, which is put before you, which is marked Exhibit Z2, is that a copy of the statement which you have made to the Attorney General and which you have referred to in your initial amnesty application? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Subsequent to that, after you had obtained legal representation, a further application was prepared with Form 1 which also contains an Annexure A and where you refer also to the incident relating to Nokuthula Vela Simelane, is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct. MR LAMEY What is before you, which is marked pages 414 up to and including pages 422 of Bundle 2, is that that supplemented application with your signature thereon? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY And you confirm also the correctness of what is stated therein? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY You state that you joined the South African Police in 1988, is that correct? 1981? MR MKHONZA 1981, yes. MR LAMEY Sorry. Is it correct that you became a Permanent Force member of the South African Police Force? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY You also state in paragraph 8(b), that is on page 415 that you were recruited by the Security Board of the SAP by Captain Minnaar, is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct. MR LAMEY Is that when you joined the Security Police? MR MKHONZA Yes, that is right. MR LAMEY Your Force number was 0447917-3 as stated? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Is the Force number correct there? MR MKHONZA Yes, it is correct but at that stage it was 172449 something, this is a new one that they exchanged. At that stage it wasn't this one. MR LAMEY Can you remember the number at the stage when you were recruited? MR MKHONZA It was 172449B if I can remember correctly. MR LAMEY If we proceed with your particulars regarding the incident of let's call it Ms Simelane, you state that you were stationed at Protea Security Branch during 1983, is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct. MR LAMEY At that stage you were an undercover agent? MR MKHONZA That is correct. MR LAMEY For the Security Police in Swaziland, is that correct? MR MKHONZA For the Security Police not in Swaziland. MR LAMEY All right, in general for the Security Police? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY But at the stage particular when this incident happened, you had infiltrated the ANC, is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct. MR LAMEY Did you infiltrate the ANC particularly in Swaziland? MR MKHONZA That is right. MR LAMEY Did you become a member of the ANC for this purpose, a "member"? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Who was your handler as an undercover agent? MR MKHONZA It was Mr Coetzee. MR LAMEY Did he have also another name under which he handled you, by the name of Mkhize? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Now could you explain to the Committee how, it is common cause that you ultimately met a lady by the name of Simelane at the Carlton Centre. Can you tell the Committee how did this happen, how - what happened prior to this which led up to this meeting with her at the Carlton Centre? MR MKHONZA I met a gentleman by the name of Mpho in Swaziland who told me that ... MR LAMEY All right, just stop there, who was this gentleman, this Mpho? MR MKHONZA I only knew him as Mpho, that was the only name I knew. MR LAMEY What was he doing in Swaziland? MR MKHONZA I don't know exactly what was he doing, but at that time I met him when we were busy with our investigation pertaining to MK structures. MR LAMEY You met him while you infiltrated the MK structures? MR MKHONZA That is right. MR LAMEY Was he a member of MK? MR MKHONZA To me, yes. I would say so. MR LAMEY Now, what - did you receive any instructions from this person or any request? MR MKHONZA Yes sir, he instructed me to meet one lady that I didn't know, even specified to me that you don't know this agent and she doesn't know you as well, that you meet her at the Funfood at Carlton Centre and then he drew up an identification code that we would use for us to know each other, this lady and myself. Because I was wearing a brown trousers that day and a yellow shirt, Mpho said that I should wear the very same clothing and then on top of that, I had to buy a Rothmans cigarette if I remember very well, and a blue envelope. MR LAMEY A Rothmans cigarette? MR MKHONZA Yes, to put it on top of the table, so that this person, this lady was going to try to identify me with, of which I did. MR LAMEY So the cigarette was sort of an instrument that was used so that ... MR MKHONZA Right, for identification purposes. MR LAMEY That she could identify you at the place? MR MKHONZA That is right. And the brown trousers and the yellow shirt, yes. MR LAMEY This method of identification, did you also give this information to Coetzee? MR MKHONZA That is right. MR LAMEY Did you know that what sex this lady would be? Well, what - sorry, that is relaxing the mind, yes, could you know what, who this person would be? MR MKHONZA Yes, I knew it was going to be a lady. MR LAMEY This aspect, did you also mention this to Coetzee? MR MKHONZA Yes, I did. MR LAMEY But you didn't know her name at that stage? MR MKHONZA No, I didn't. MR LAMEY Did you know what the purpose of this meeting with her would be as you had been instructed from this Mpho? MR MKHONZA It wasn't very clear, except that Mpho mentioned that he would hand over to me a material, it wasn't very clear what kind of material it had. MR LAMEY If you say it wasn't clear, was it not specified? MR MKHONZA Yes, it wasn't. MR LAMEY What could this material be? What did you understand from that? MR MKHONZA From my understanding it could have been a soft material or hard material. MR LAMEY If you talk about soft material or hard material, can you just explain further to the Committee what you mean by that? MR MKHONZA Yes, it could have been literature or else it could have been ... MR LAMEY Is that soft material? MR MKHONZA That is soft material. MR LAMEY Yes? MR MKHONZA And hard material could have been arms, including explosives. MR LAMEY Now was it discussed with you and Coetzee that - anything else that would happen with this lady? MR MKHONZA No, except that he said to me he is going to arrest this lady. MR LAMEY And how would you assist in this regard? MR MKHONZA That I should sort of entertain her by buying something like food, because he gave me R100-00 to entertain this lady and this would help them to take photo's while we are still sitting and eating there and then from there, I had to lure her into the basement. MR LAMEY To lure her into the basement? MR MKHONZA Yes, that is where the arrest would take place. MR LAMEY Basement, is that where the cars are parked? MR MKHONZA That is right. MR LAMEY Is that where you car was also parked? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY What happened then further there? MR MKHONZA From the Funfood itself we went to the car parking, that is where the arrest took place. That is where they arrested her. MR LAMEY And what happened with you in the process? MR MKHONZA After they had arrested her, then I went home. MR LAMEY Did your fellow Policemen also, did they also arrest you? MR MKHONZA Yes, the pretended as if they were arresting but they did not in actual fact. MR LAMEY Yes, because they knew that you were a Permanent Force member? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Was there a pretence to arrest you? MR MKHONZA That is right. MR LAMEY What did you know of this lady beforehand from Swaziland? Did you know that she had something also to do with MK? MR MKHONZA No, I didn't know her before hand. MR LAMEY No, you hadn't met the lady, I accept? MR MKHONZA No. MR LAMEY No, but did you at least know that she was also involved with MK? MR MKHONZA No, I didn't. MR LAMEY When you received the instructions from Mpho? MR MKHONZA Well, from what Mpho told me, I thought the person, the lady that I was going to meet, was involved, but I cannot say yes, she was involved. MR LAMEY No, no that I understand, but what I want to know is what he did relate to you is that she is also involved with MK? MR MKHONZA No, no, he didn't. MR LAMEY Didn't he say that? MR MKHONZA No. MR LAMEY Was she a courier, was she used as a courier? MR MKHONZA It could have been, yes. MR LAMEY Now, were any other plans disclosed to you what Coetzee would eventually do with the lady? MR MKHONZA No, except that he said he was going to arrest this lady. MR LAMEY What happened thereafter? MR MKHONZA Well, I don't know because that was the last time when I saw her, at Carlton Centre. MR LAMEY Yes, but what did you do thereafter? Where did you go? MR MKHONZA I went back home. MR LAMEY Can you remember something about that you were taken to the East Rand, Benoni, where you plaster of Paris on your leg and arm? MR MKHONZA Yes, it was after her arrest that Mr Coetzee and Mr Pretorius took me to a place in Benoni. MR LAMEY Yes? MR MKHONZA To put plaster of Paris on my leg and on my arm. MR LAMEY What was the purpose of that? MR MKHONZA The purpose was to give an excuse in Swaziland that I could not meet this lady, because I had an accident on the day of the meeting with this lady. MR LAMEY Who would communicate this back to Swaziland? MR MKHONZA Langa would do that. MR LAMEY Who was Langa? MR MKHONZA He was referred to as 269. MR LAMEY Was he also an undercover agent? MR MKHONZA Yes, he was. MR LAMEY Did you further have a discussion with Coetzee as to what happened further with this lady? MR MKHONZA Yes, on two occasions I asked him what happened to the lady and he gave me the same answer that time, "I shouldn't ask many questions." MR LAMEY Have you later heard that she, received any reports from whatever source that she disappeared? MR MKHONZA Yes, I read it in the newspaper. MR LAMEY Did you read that in the newspaper? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY In your amnesty application you say you passed information on to Colonel Coetzee at that stage, from whom you received instructions to proceed with the meeting with this person, is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct yes. MR LAMEY That is in paragraph, just have a look at the paragraph, paragraph 9(a)(i), page 421 and you say that you were informed by Coetzee that they intended arresting this person, is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct yes. MR LAMEY You say he in fact used the word arrest? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY So when the person was in fact thereafter arrested, you did not know whether she was lawfully arrested or not? MR MKHONZA No, I didn't. MR LAMEY And you assumed that she was lawfully arrested? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Your decision to apply for amnesty for this particular incident is motivated by a reason that you heard that she disappeared? Is that correct? MR MKHONZA Yes, for my being instrumental into her arrest, yes. MR LAMEY We have also now heard that she was in fact kidnapped? You have heard that during this hearing? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY So you apply for amnesty for any possible offence which you could have committed in this process as being also an instrument which eventually, as it now appears, led to her abduction and kidnapping, is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct yes. MR LAMEY In paragraph 10(a) you have stated in your supplemented application and I just want to ask you to listen carefully and to tell me whether you confirm this, you say that as a member of the Security Police, you were an undercover agent and you were instructed to pass on information to your handlers in this instance, with regard to the activities of MK soldiers, is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct yes. MR LAMEY You say further that you received an instruction from MK command in Swaziland in order to meet this lady at the Carlton Centre? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY You were told at the time that she would deliver certain material to you which you must take into possession and to use it as part of the ANC Unit in the RSA? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Is that correct. MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY You at the time did not know what the material would be, it could have been hard material, namely arms or ammunition or soft material, being documentation, is that correct? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY The objective as you stated, was to combat the activities of the ANC who had its aim to overthrow the government by means of an armed struggle from the point of view of the Security Police, is that correct? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY At that stage, may I just ask this further, as a member of the Security Police, that was also your personal perception and motivation for your role in this regard? MR MKHONZA Yes, it was. MR LAMEY Further on you say you received your orders from Coetzee who was at that stage, had the rank of Lieutenant? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY And he was your handler? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY During the evidence here which you have heard f Mr Coetzee and also Mr Pretorius, certain evidence was given which you gave me instructions on and that is, one is about the explosions at the power stations at Bryanston and Randburg if I remember correctly. You have heard that evidence? MR MKHONZA Yes, I did. MR LAMEY Now the evidence was to the effect that you received instructions from MK in Swaziland to sabotage or to be involved in these planned act of the explosions? MR MKHONZA No, that is not true, if I may correct that. The instructions that I got from Swaziland was that we should observe and hit the base, the military base in Johannesburg, not the power stations. MR LAMEY Was there a planned attack on a military base in Johannesburg? MR MKHONZA Yes, there was a plan to attack it. MR LAMEY And you had to play a role in that? MR MKHONZA Yes, we did some observation but seeing that the mission was impossible, we reported that. MR LAMEY What would be the nature of that attack, what was the plan? MR MKHONZA The plan would be to throw grenades when the Army was parading. MR LAMEY On the parade ground? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY You say you didn't have any instructions with regard to the explosions and the power stations. Do you anything about this, why these explosions took place? MR MKHONZA What I am saying is I did not have instructions from Swaziland, from the ANC in Swaziland, but I had instructions from Coetzee that we should go and blow the power stations. MR LAMEY What was the purpose of that? MR MKHONZA The purpose was to give us credibility in Swaziland because we could not perform the initial task that was given to us. MR LAMEY The initial task being? MR MKHONZA To attack a military base. MR LAMEY At a time in 1983 you have also heard evidence about safe houses, were there other safe houses used as far as you know, by the Security Branch at Soweto? MR MKHONZA Safe houses? MR LAMEY Where persons that are arrested and detained, are kept? MR MKHONZA I know of one in Klipspruit. MR LAMEY Did you know of one in Klipspruit? MR MKHONZA Yes. ADV DE JAGER One where? MR MKHONZA In Klipspruit. MR LAMEY Did you know of any, were you informed by Coetzee that they intended to "arrest" this lady for purposes of a so-called "kop draai" purpose? MR MKHONZA No. MR LAMEY You were not informed? MR MKHONZA No. MR LAMEY In this hearing reference was also made of the arrest of Justice Ngidi by Coetzee and Pretorius, is that correct? MR MKHONZA I cannot confirm that, but I know of his arrest. MR LAMEY Did you know whether Simelane had anything to do with that arrest? MR MKHONZA No, I don't know. MR LAMEY Did you know how that happened? MR MKHONZA I don't know. MR LAMEY Do you know what led to his arrest? MR MKHONZA According to what I heard, it was through this SWT66, that is what I heard. MR LAMEY That is what you heard? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Did you understand it was through SWT66, also another informer? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Justice Ngidi, what was his other MK name? MR MKHONZA I know him as Cheche. MR LAMEY What was his position in MK in Swaziland, did you know him from there? MR MKHONZA Yes, I met him there. MR LAMEY Can you recall when he was arrested or whether he was arrested at all? MR MKHONZA Yes, I was told he was arrested for the first time and then he escaped, then he was re-arrested because he was sent back again here inside the country and he was re-arrested. MR LAMEY Can you recall in relation to the Simelane abduction? MR MKHONZA No. MR LAMEY Was it before or after? MR MKHONZA I cannot, no. MR LAMEY You can't remember? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY This lady, Simelane, she was arrested before I take it, she could deliver anything to you? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY ADV GCABASHE Can I just take your point a little further Mr Lamey, can you take us through the conversation you had with her at Funfoods? MR MKHONZA We didn't talk long because all that she said to me, she used the communication codes which if I can remember well, are you Dan Motsa from Tzaneen, something like that, then I responded, then I asked her if I can order some drinks for her and then, of which I did, yes, she said yes and then I did. We sat there and we had that drink and then thereafter, it wasn't too long, we left. ADV GCABASHE But you left having said what to her, where were you going from there? MR MKHONZA I just said my car is parked in the basement, then we can go and talk there in the car because it is not safe to talk here. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Did she have anything with her? MR MKHONZA I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON Did she have anything with her? MR MKHONZA No, as far as I remember she didn't have anything. CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn for lunch, with the co-operation of the parties, can we reconvene in 30 minutes' time? We will reconvene at half past one, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS NORMAN L. MKHONZA (still under oath) CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mkhonza, would it be correct that you were infiltrated into MK structures in Swaziland through an informer who we know as SWT66, is that correct? MR MKHONZA No, it is not correct, the person who introduced me to the ANC is Langa. MR VISSER Pardon? MR MKHONZA The person who introduced me, who took me to Swaziland was Langa. MR VISSER Langa? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR VISSER Can you deny that he was introduced by SWT66 to the structures in Swaziland? MR MKHONZA No, I cannot deny that. MR VISSER All right. Now this meeting that you had with MK Mpho in Swaziland, what was his position in MK? MR MKHONZA I have no idea. MR VISSER Well, how did it come about that you met him, why did this happen? Was it a per chance meeting or what? MR MKHONZA It was a normal procedure in Swaziland, to meet different people on different occasions. The first person that I met that Langa introduced me to, it was Cheche and then Oscar, then if I remember well it was Viva, no it was an ongoing thing to meet new faces at all times. MR VISSER Would you be introduced to these new people every time you went to Swaziland? MR MKHONZA Not every time. MR VISSER Well, some of the times? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR VISSER Were you introduced to MK Mpho? MR MKHONZA I was taken to him by SWT66. MR VISSER And was the purpose simply to meet him? MR MKHONZA Simply to meet Mpho? MR VISSER Yes? MR MKHONZA Well, I have no idea. MR VISSER Well, you see Mpho said to you as I understand it, that he was going to send a lady to meet you in Johannesburg? Is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct yes. MR VISSER And he told you that he would send you material, is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct yes. MR VISSER Did you understand by that that the courier would be bringing the material along with her, to you in Johannesburg? MR MKHONZA The impression I got was that she was going to lead me to a place where I would get all those things. MR VISSER I see. But you had no idea what it was? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR VISSER Why didn't you ask Mpho what it was? MR MKHONZA It would be very wrong on my side to ask too many questions. MR VISSER He would have told you what Coetzee told you, not to ask so many questions? MR MKHONZA No, not necessarily that, but that was the procedure to use, if you want to infiltrate somebody, you don't have to appear inquisitive. MR VISSER Well, what were you supposed to do with the material? MR MKHONZA A further instruction would follow thereafter. MR VISSER Would the lady bring the instructions to you, the courier? MR MKHONZA No, not the lady. It wasn't specific who was going to bring the instructions. MR VISSER I see. I am assuming in your favour that you told Mr Coetzee that the courier would be a lady, quite possible that he might have forgotten about it or not heard it, so we don't make an issue out of that, but as far as this meeting with Mpho is concerned, you were left with more questions than answers, you were really simply told someone was going to meet you and lead you to a place where there is material? Is that correct? MR MKHONZA That is correct yes. ADV DE JAGER (Microphone not on) MR VISSER He has just said so. ADV DE JAGER (Microphone not on) MR VISSER Perhaps you are right, yes Chairperson. Did Mpho tell you that the courier would lead you to the material or did you just assume that? MR MKHONZA It was my assumption, he didn't tell me exactly what was going to happen, but he just said he is going to give the material. How was that going to take place, it wasn't clear. MR VISSER Was it already at that meeting with Mpho discussed that the meeting would take place at the Carlton Centre? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR VISSER Was the date and the time already discussed and agreed upon at that time? MR MKHONZA With Mpho, yes, that is correct. MR VISSER You say you reported all of this to Coetzee? MR MKHONZA That is correct yes. MR VISSER And please stop me if I am wrong, you were going to then arrest her? MR MKHONZA I beg your pardon? MR VISSER You were then going to arrest her as far as you were concerned? MR MKHONZA No, I was not going to arrest her, Mr Coetzee was going to carry the arrest. MR VISSER Okay, somebody was going to arrest her? Did you understand your position in the MK structure in Swaziland, at that time, to mean that you now had to start taking orders from Mpho and carry them out? Was that your understanding? MR MKHONZA No. MR VISSER Well, what authority did Mpho have to give you this instruction? MR MKHONZA As I said earlier on that I was introduced to different people on different occasions. I took it as part of the procedure. MR VISSER Did all of the other people also ... (tape ends) ... MR MKHONZA Yes, like Cheche, he was one of them. MR VISSER All right, now when you told Coetzee about what had transpired in Swaziland, were you and him alone or what was the position? MR MKHONZA Yes, he was alone if I remember very well, yes. MR VISSER All right, you remember very well. And did he immediately say then I am going to arrest her, at the meeting? MR MKHONZA No, he didn't say that immediately. It was like this, I came back from Swaziland and I gave him a report and then towards the day of the arrest, then he told me that it was sort of a debriefing, this is what you should do, you must lead her to the basement where I am going to arrest her, it was like that. MR VISSER All right. When you realised that Coetzee decided that she had to be arrested, did it not occur to you to say to him, well, why don't you leave the lady to go and point out the material to me, because we might be able to discover an arms cache? Did that occur to you? MR MKHONZA No, you wouldn't take decisions with Mr Coetzee, he was the one who decided every time. MR VISSER Well, it is just surprising that he didn't think about that himself, perhaps he didn't hear you telling him that the lady was going to lead you, your inference was that the lady was going to lead you to material. Didn't you just mention that to him? MR MKHONZA Could you come again please? MR VISSER I am trying to discover why nobody thought of following the lady and yourself to the place where she would point out the material, if your assumption was correct. MR MKHONZA The decision had to be taken by Mr Coetzee himself. MR VISSER If that is the best answer, let's step off it. You say there was a debriefing, did I hear you correctly just now? MR MKHONZA Yes, I said so. MR VISSER All right, when you were told that you were going to meet the lady, you were going to have on your yellow shirt and your brown trousers and your pack of Rothmans cigarettes and you were to entice her to go down to the basement parking area, where she would be arrested, remember that? MR MKHONZA Yes, I do. MR VISSER Who were present at that debriefing? MR MKHONZA I can't remember very well, but I should think... MR VISSER Can I perhaps help you? MR MKHONZA Yes please. MR VISSER You can tell me whether the names that I mention, you can remember being there or you can remember not being there. If you are not certain, please say so. Pretorius? MR MKHONZA I don't think he was there. MR VISSER Not there? Mong? MR MKHONZA No. MR VISSER Ross? MR MKHONZA Ross, he could have been there. MR VISSER Okay. Williams? MR MKHONZA No. MR VISSER No? Sergeant Mothiba? MR MKHONZA No. MR VISSER Selamolela? MR MKHONZA Yes, as he was the person who would always take me there, yes, I think he was there. MR VISSER So he was there? And Radebe? MR MKHONZA No, Radebe was at the point of arrest as far as I remember. MR VISSER Right, and Constable Veyi? MR MKHONZA No, I don't think so. I am not too sure. MR VISSER Okay, so it turns out that it was Coetzee, what you can remember, it was Coetzee, Selamolela and yourself at this debriefing meeting? MR MKHONZA I think so because I was reporting directly to Mr Coetzee and Selamolela was the person who would take me to Mr Coetzee. MR VISSER Yes. And as far as you are concerned, this was the meeting where the plan about how she was going to be arrested, was discussed? MR MKHONZA No, I didn't say so. MR VISSER I am talking about the debriefing session where you spoke about how she was going to be arrested, that is what we are speaking about all the time. MR MKHONZA Oh, okay. MR VISSER Now do you want to change what you have just told me about the names now? MR MKHONZA No, I am not changing anything about names, what I am trying to remember is, I can't remember exactly when did the debriefing take place, but it did. MR VISSER All right. Apparently about an hour or two before the actual departure to the Carlton Centre, there was a meeting, call a debriefing, information briefing, whatever you want to call it, where the people who were going to be involved in the arrest, were properly briefed on what was going to happen? Did you attend such a briefing? MR MKHONZA No, I can't remember attending it. MR VISSER The courier, perhaps before I do say that, when you went to the Carlton Centre, right up until the time that the courier was arrested, was taken, were you under the firm impression it was a normal, lawful arrest? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR VISSER This person, the courier and I am going to refer to her now as Simelane, because we know that it was Ms Simelane, did you know anything about her at all? MR MKHONZA No, I didn't know anything about her. MR VISSER Did you assume that she was a member of MK? MR MKHONZA Yes, I did. MR VISSER Were you, did you inform Mr Coetzee of this assumption? MR MKHONZA No, I did not inform him, but as I was involved in an MK structure, it became clear that ... MR VISSER You assumed that you would have understood that she would be an MK courier? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR VISSER All right. After that arrest, you went home? MR MKHONZA That is right. MR VISSER All right. Let's just talk for a moment about these explosions. I understand your evidence to be that you were not given any instructions in Swaziland by anybody to attack the specific targets that we spoke about here as far and I am referring now to the power stations, the Bryanston and the Randburg power stations, you were not given specific instructions in Swaziland, to attack specific power stations, do I have that right? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR VISSER Were you given instructions in Swaziland about targets generally, that had to be attacked on behalf of the ANC? MR MKHONZA That is correct, yes. MR VISSER And part of that general target identification, were you told to attack inter alia power sub-stations? MR MKHONZA I was told to attack the Police stations and the Municipality offices and if I remember well, the school busses that carried white kids. MR VISSER All right. Is it possible that you were also told to attack power lines and power sub-stations? MR MKHONZA No, that wasn't mentioned, I would remember it. MR VISSER But I want to put it to you, that is very strange because we know that one of the prime target selections of the ANC in the conflict of the past, was in fact strategic points such as power plants, power sub-stations and so on, why would that have been excluded from your targets, do you have any idea? MR MKHONZA I think I have. Normally when you start working with the ANC, they give you impossible targets to perform, that is one way of testing you if you are a genuine comrade, I would say. If you perform those impossible targets, it is then that they realise, they find out that you are actually an agent because you cannot perform impossible tasks if you are not assisted by the authorities. That was the testing point, I would say. MR VISSER I see, so is your thinking then that attacking a sub-station would be relatively an easy target to attack? MR MKHONZA Yes, it would. MR VISSER I see. Would that be the reason why you received the instructions to attack the Wits Command in Johannesburg? MR MKHONZA Yes, as part of my sort of proving that I was not an agent. MR VISSER And you failed the test because you didn't attack the Command? MR MKHONZA Yes, I failed yes. MR VISSER And yet, you were still accepted? MR MKHONZA Because we changed the route, with the instruction of Mr Coetzee, that we should go and attack the power stations just to prove to the ANC that we are really committed. MR VISSER That is precisely the point. You were able to retain your credibility with MK in Swaziland precisely because these false flag operations were carried out, isn't that so? MR MKHONZA I would say so, yes. MR VISSER Yes. You spoke about a safe house in Klipspruit, Klipspruit West you thought it was, do you remember that? MR MKHONZA Yes, I do. MR VISSER Now can you describe this safe house to us, is it a house standing on its own, on its own erf, on its own stand, is it a flat, is it an outbuilding, what kind of a building is this? MR MKHONZA It is a house. MR VISSER Standing on its own? MR MKHONZA Yes, no, it is attached to another house. MR VISSER Would that be houses referred to by I think it was Coetzee, as accommodation for members of the South African Police staff? MR MKHONZA That is the house where Strongman and Immanuel used to stay. MR VISSER Is that also the house where Lengene went to stay after he became a Policeman? MR MKHONZA No, I was not there at that stage, I don't know where did he stay. MR VISSER I see. Why do you call that a safe house? MR MKHONZA Because one MK captive that was caught by Mr Coetzee was also taken there, Joe, who also passed away. MR VISSER All right, so an MK captive, Joe, was taken to this house, is that the only reason why you call this a safe house? MR MKHONZA Yes, and from time to time, we would also meet with our informers there. MR VISSER But meeting with an informant in a house, doesn't make it a safe house, does it, not a safe house in the sense that we are talking about? MR MKHONZA I understood it to be a safe house because if it wasn't a safe house, we wouldn't meet people that had not to be seen by public, in that area. MR VISSER All right. In 1983 in September, was anybody living in that safe house? MR MKHONZA Yes, I think so, I am not too sure. MR VISSER Do you know who, was it an ordinary member of the Police or was it someone else? MR MKHONZA It was Strongman who was living there. MR VISSER Strongman was staying there? All right, I just want to put it to you that the evidence was that the Intelligence Unit of the Security Police of Soweto did not have safe houses at their disposal in 1983. How would you react to that? MR MKHONZA I won't deny that. MR VISSER Pardon? MR MKHONZA I would not deny that. MR VISSER You would not deny that. All right, then I have just been wasting time, I am sorry. At this, coming back to the briefing before the arrest, you say that you were never informed by Coetzee that it was the intention to turn the courier into an informer? MR MKHONZA No, I was not. MR VISSER Wasn't that something which you assumed would happen? MR MKHONZA No, as I was still new, I didn't think of that. MR VISSER I see. Had you by that time not had previous exposure to arrests of MK people and the attempts to turn them into informers? MR MKHONZA No, I wasn't. MR VISSER I see. When Simelane met you at the Carlton Centre, did she have anything with her in her hands? MR MKHONZA I don't remember her holding anything. MR VISSER Is it possible that she had a bag with her where she kept her stuff? Can't you remember at all? MR MKHONZA No, I don't remember. MR VISSER All right, it is not important. After Ms Simelane had been arrested, did you ever go back to Swaziland? MR MKHONZA I don't remember going back to Swaziland, instead Frank as we used to call him, Big, he is the one that went to report to Swaziland that I had an accident. MR VISSER You are talking about Mr Langa? MR MKHONZA That is right yes. MR VISSER Let's stay with his name, all right. He went to report that. Can you remember whether you yourself, after the arrest, ever went back to Swaziland? MR MKHONZA No, I don't remember but I cannot put my head on a block and say no, I did not. MR VISSER Well, you see Mr Coetzee gave evidence to say that he sent you back to Swaziland once or twice, riding on the back of the false flag operations, having established your credibility and he said that you in fact brought back information about weapons that would come or did come, from Swaziland into the Republic. Can you remember any of that? MR MKHONZA No, I don't. MR VISSER Is it possible that that could have happened? MR MKHONZA I don't think it happened because I was also scared to go back because of what happened. MR VISSER Yes, well I just want to tell you that that evidence was never challenged. Now when you frequented Swaziland, did you there hear of a European woman or an Indian gentleman in MK? MR MKHONZA No. MR VISSER Mr Mkhonza, while you were a Police spy, what would have happened if the ANC found out what you were doing, what do you think would have happened to you? MR MKHONZA I think they would have killed me. MR VISSER My next question, just let's assume that Simelane after her arrest, had become an informer of the Police, and she was released but she was, it was clear that she had been away for four to five weeks, it was clear from looking at her, that she had been assaulted, what do you think would have happened to her? MR MKHONZA Well, I don't know, but I cannot say they would have killed her or they would have sent her back to South Africa like they did with Cheche, I don't know. MR VISSER Don't you think they would have suspected that in the period that she was away, that she was in the hands of the Police, that she was assaulted and that she might have turned into an informer? MR MKHONZA That is another possibility and again I think the Intelligence of the ANC could also use her to be a double agent. MR VISSER Yes, all right. I put it to you that her life would have been in dire danger under those circumstances, would you agree with that? MR MKHONZA Yes and no. MR VISSER All right. Do you know whether Simelane on the occasion that you met her, had to courier information to Mr Barney Molokwane? MR MKHONZA No. MR VISSER You don't know about that? MR MKHONZA No, I didn't. MR VISSER Were you at the time aware of the activities of a certain Mr Duma Nkosi in Soweto? MR MKHONZA No, I don't even know Duma. MR VISSER I see. Did you speak to Ms Simelane at all about any MK activity or plan or orders before she was arrested? MR MKHONZA No. MR VISSER All right. Lastly I just want to ask you this, in Exhibit Z1 the last page, which is an annexure to Form 1, that is the application form, you said that you ask for amnesty in regard to the following - involved with the kidnapping or "arrest" of this person. That on face value, that doesn't tally with what you have told us today, because today you have said that that was a perfectly lawful arrest and yet you apply for amnesty for a kidnapping. Can you explain that? MR MKHONZA Actually what I meant to say is that seeing that I was instrumental in her arrest, I say that I should ask for amnesty. MR VISSER But your intention was a lawful arrest, not so, you never had an intention to kidnap her? MR MKHONZA No. MR VISSER I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Van den Berg, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairperson. Can you recall how many times you met with Mpho? MR MKHONZA Only once. MR VAN DEN BERG Only once, and that is what he confirms. He says he only met with you once. Can you remember the instruction that he gave you in respect of the establishment of communications network? MR MKHONZA No, I don't. MR VAN DEN BERG Can you dispute that the instruction was that you were to establish a communications network, setting out details of the way in which messages would be conveyed back to Swaziland, the location of a DLB for the procurement of materials, do you recall any of that? MR MKHONZA No, I don't but I cannot deny that. MR VAN DEN BERG You don't deny it? You said that, you were asked about whether you had gone back to Swaziland and you were asked whether you brought back information in respect of weapons and you say you don't remember that. You say it is possible, but you say that you were scared to go back. Why was that? You said you were scared because of what happened, what are you referring to? MR MKHONZA Because I did not know what would they think of me because I didn't know what happened to this lady. MR VAN DEN BERG Isn't it correct that you did in fact go back after the false flag operations, after the bombing of the sub-stations at Bryanston and Fairlands? MR MKHONZA Yes, it is possible that I went back, I cannot deny that, but I did not go back to Mpho in particular. MR VAN DEN BERG And do you recall that there was a time when the ANC in Swaziland were looking for you, looking for you and for Langa? Was that not part of your fear and your concern? MR MKHONZA No. MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Twala says that when he received the information that Simelane had disappeared, he immediately suspected that you were involved in that. He was of the view that you and Langa should be arrested by the ANC and that you should be interrogated and to that end they set about trying to find you. Do you want to comment on that? MR MKHONZA It makes sense to me if they suspected so, because she was sent to meet me. So to me it is normal. MR VAN DEN BERG Would you just take me through your political objectives, you were a member of the Security Police and you were involved in the infiltration of MK structures. I have difficulty in reconciling that with your status as a second or a third class citizen in the country at that time, will you explain that to me. MR MKHONZA I was acting on instructions that were given to me, I had to obey instructions to infiltrate the ANC. If that answers your question. MR VAN DEN BERG Not completely. Did you subscribe, did you associate yourself with those instructions, did you associate yourself with the struggle to resist liberation in the country? MR MKHONZA At that time, I had no choice, I had to. MR VAN DEN BERG Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Van den Berg. Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Yes Mr Chair, thank you. Mr Mkhonza, how did it come about that you became a double agent? CHAIRPERSON Not a double agent, a Police agent, a Police spy? MS THABETHE Sorry? CHAIRPERSON Do you mean a double agent or a Police spy? MS THABETHE A double agent. CHAIRPERSON He was a double agent, all right. MR LAMEY Mr Chairman, I don't understand his evidence that he said he was a double agent, he was an undercover agent for the Police and as a result of that, he had to follow instructions also from ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, well that is what I thought. Perhaps Ms Thabethe will explain that. MS THABETHE I just want to check, I think I read it from the statement somewhere, but I might be mistaken. CHAIRPERSON On what has been said up to now, it is perhaps not proper to use the term double agent, but clarify it. MR LAMEY I wonder whether my learned friend refers to paragraph 1 on page 419, where he states my task was to work as an undercover agent. MS THABETHE Sorry, undercover agent, yes. I am indebted to you. How did it come about that you became an undercover agent in Swaziland? MR MKHONZA It was per instruction. MS THABETHE From Mr Coetzee? MR MKHONZA That is right. MS THABETHE How did it happen, that is what I am asking. MR MKHONZA Your question is sort of ambiguous, if you could be specific with your question. MS THABETHE You were given an instruction to become an undercover agent in Swaziland. MR MKHONZA Yes. MS THABETHE What happened, how did you manage to go to Swaziland and you know, be approved as a person who worked for the ANC? That is what I am asking. MR MKHONZA Okay, I will say it again, I was introduced by Langa. MS THABETHE To the ANC in Swaziland? MR MKHONZA Yes. MS THABETHE Okay, and how long did you work as an undercover agent before the incident of Simelane? MR MKHONZA That was the first, no it was almost a year or so, it couldn't have been more than a year if I remember very well. MS THABETHE And was this your first assignment or mission? MR MKHONZA From which side now? MS THABETHE From the Police side now? I am talking about the Simelane incident, was this your first assignment so to say? MR MKHONZA To do what? MS THABETHE To set somebody up to be arrested? MR MKHONZA Yes, it was. MS THABETHE Was it your first assignment? MR MKHONZA Yes, it was. MS THABETHE Okay. ADV GCABASHE But it was not your first assignment from the ANC to come and to something in South Africa? MR MKHONZA No, it was not. ADV GCABASHE How many other assignments had you had in that year, roughly the year that you had been active? MR MKHONZA It was to monitor the military base of which I did and the other ones, I could not perform. Yes, it was one that I did. ADV GCABASHE So you just, it was one, you monitored the military base and then the other one, you couldn't perform? MR MKHONZA That is correct. ADV GCABASHE And that is the sum total before the Simelane incident? MR MKHONZA yes. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. MS THABETHE Can you press your microphone again, thank you. In your application in paragraph 4, you say "Fred Boy Langa took back a message in Swaziland after Ms Simelane was arrested". Am I right if I am saying that the message was that you didn't meet with the lady? MR MKHONZA That is correct yes. MS THABETHE And did it come back to you as to what they said in connection with that? MR MKHONZA He was not reporting to me, he was reporting directly to Mr Coetzee. MS THABETHE No, I don't think you understand me. In your application you say you had made an excuse not to meet with the lady and Frank Langa took the message back to Swaziland and then I asked you was the message the fact that you didn't meet with the lady and you said yes. Now my next question is, did Frank Langa get back to you as to what was the response when the ANC in Swaziland was told that you couldn't meet with the lady? MR MKHONZA Whatever response he would get from Swaziland, he would take it straight to Mr Coetzee, he wouldn't report it to me. MS THABETHE Oh, I see. After having been told that you shouldn't ask any questions by Mr Coetzee, did you leave it at that or did you try to find out what happened to Ms Simelane? MR MKHONZA If I remember very well, I asked him on two occasions and I got the same answer, "jy moenie baie vrae vra nie." Then it was like, we would all talk as colleagues, but what happened to this lady, nobody would come with an answer, until it appeared in the newspapers that she disappeared, but still you could not have, I could not have a definite answer as to what happened to her. MS THABETHE So are you saying that you only learned of her disappearance when you read the newspaper, that was the first time that you learned that she disappeared, is that your evidence? MR MKHONZA I would say so, yes. MS THABETHE I just want to ask you another question as well. You say when you met the lady in Carlton Centre, I am going back to Carlton Centre, you ordered drinks for her. I assume you sat down and you had those drinks, would that be correct of me to assume that way? MR MKHONZA Yes. MS THABETHE Did you talk about anything then with regard to why you had to meet? MR MKHONZA No, because I said to her we were going to talk in the car, because it wasn't safe to talk there. MS THABETHE And you also gave evidence that you don't remember her carrying anything with her, is that your evidence? MR MKHONZA Yes. MS THABETHE But you were aware that she was going to be arrested? MR MKHONZA Yes, I was. MS THABETHE In your understanding, what was she going to be arrested for? MR MKHONZA For being an MK member. At that time MK people were not allowed in the country, that was my whole understanding. MS THABETHE Okay. My last question to you is, you have also given evidence that if they would have known that you are a Police informer, that is now the ANC people in Swaziland, they would have killed you, do you remember saying that? MR MKHONZA Yes, I do. MS THABETHE On what basis are you saying this? MR MKHONZA Because I actually betrayed them. MS THABETHE No, what I am asking is on what basis do you think they would have killed you, had it occurred before that they would kill people who betrayed them? MR MKHONZA Yes, like it appeared on papers that they killed some of the Security Police that infiltrated and so I am basing my argument on that one. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Thabethe. Can you describe this Ms Simelane? MR MKHONZA She was a beautiful lady. CHAIRPERSON Young? MR MKHONZA I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON Young? MR MKHONZA Yes, she was young. CHAIRPERSON Yes? What else? How was she built? MR MKHONZA She was light in complexion and she was sort of slender. CHAIRPERSON From your conversation with her, could you form any impression about whether she was an educated person? MR MKHONZA Yes, she was. CHAIRPERSON And relatively sophisticated? MR MKHONZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON How was her voice, how was she speaking, was it a sort of ... MR MKHONZA Soft voice, yes. CHAIRPERSON Soft voice, soft spoken person? MR MKHONZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you see how she was arrested? MR MKHONZA Yes, I saw. CHAIRPERSON What did they do to her? MR MKHONZA She was put in the boot of a white XR6 if I remember well. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but before that, how did they apprehend her? Did they grab her, did they pull her to the ground, did they beat her up or what happened? MR MKHONZA No, not at that place, she was just grabbed. Yes, everybody was rushing for her. CHAIRPERSON Okay. So everybody rushed towards her and they grabbed her? MR MKHONZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON What did she do, did she resist? MR MKHONZA Sort of yes. CHAIRPERSON Produce a firearm, hand grenade? MR MKHONZA No. CHAIRPERSON Nothing? MR MKHONZA Nothing. CHAIRPERSON Did she try to resist? MR MKHONZA Yes, she tried to resist. CHAIRPERSON And was she then subdued? MR MKHONZA Yes, she was overpowered. CHAIRPERSON Did she shout or ... MR MKHONZA No, she didn't shout, but she was scared. CHAIRPERSON She was right next to you? MR MKHONZA I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON She was right next to you or close to you? MR MKHONZA Yes, as we were coming out of the lift, they just sprang on us. CHAIRPERSON You say she was scared? MR MKHONZA She looked scared to me. CHAIRPERSON She looked scared? MR MKHONZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON You say you never saw her after that? MR MKHONZA No. CHAIRPERSON MR MKHONZA Because nobody came back to me to tell as to what did she say, what was going on, and it was just like that. CHAIRPERSON Were you curious to find out what happened? MR MKHONZA Yes, I was. CHAIRPERSON You didn't approach any of the other Policemen that were on the scene to try and find out what happened? MR MKHONZA Yes, at a later stage after I had asked Mr Coetzee what happened to her, I think I talked to the black members about this, it was like a gossip sort of. CHAIRPERSON Yes, so you were talking to them. Did you tell them that Coetzee wouldn't tell you anything? MR MKHONZA Yes, I told them what he said to me. CHAIRPERSON And then you wanted to know what they knew about it? MR MKHONZA I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON You told them Coetzee wouldn't tell you anything? MR MKHONZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON So you wanted to find out what they knew about the incident? MR MKHONZA That is right. CHAIRPERSON Did they give you any information? MR MKHONZA No, nobody would give an answer as to what happened to her. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any questions? ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. Just to finish off the arrest in the basement. Did you see her being pushed into the boot of the XR6? MR MKHONZA Yes. ADV GCABASHE Who got into the boot with her? MR MKHONZA I think it was Radebe, I think Mr Radebe. ADV GCABASHE Langa, did you ever see him again after this incident? MR MKHONZA No, Langa wasn't there. ADV GCABASHE When was the last time ... MR MKHONZA At the arrest point. ADV GCABASHE Okay, I concede that you are right. When was the last time that you saw Langa? MR MKHONZA It is a while ago, I can't remember. You mean after that incident? ADV GCABASHE This incident, yes? MR MKHONZA I think a week or so if I remember very well, after I had gone for the plaster of Paris. Yes, I think I met him. ADV GCABASHE You met Langa at least a week after you had gone to the POP? MR MKHONZA Yes, if my memory serves me well, I think so. ADV GCABASHE Did he discuss going in and out of Swaziland with you at all, at that stage? MR MKHONZA No, he didn't. Everything was arranged by Mr Coetzee, we were communicating through him. ADV GCABASHE And you weren't curious to ask what he knew about what was going on that side? MR MKHONZA Even if I wanted to, but I couldn't. The way, the type of person Langa was, he was very close to Mr Coetzee and he wouldn't discuss things behind his back and then think you - even if you become too curious, he was going to tell him that you are so curious. ADV GCABASHE You say you never went back to Swaziland? MR MKHONZA I don't say I never, but I say I don't remember. I might have gone back, but I don't remember because I was scared. ADV GCABASHE After the time you left the Police Force, what did you do, did you just act as a regular Policeman essentially? MR MKHONZA Yes, after I left the Police Force? ADV GCABASHE After you left the Police Force in 1994? MR MKHONZA Yes, that is right. ADV GCABASHE Now between 1983 when this incident occurred, and 1994, you were just a regular Policeman? MR MKHONZA That is right yes. ADV GCABASHE Then coming to the Fairlands and Bryanston power station incidents, you said there that "we did some observations, but seeing that it would be impossible, you reported that it was impossible." MR MKHONZA That is right. ADV GCABASHE Who is "we"? MR MKHONZA It was Langa and myself. ADV GCABASHE The two of you operated as an Unit essentially? MR MKHONZA That is right. ADV GCABASHE Nobody else was part of the Unit? MR MKHONZA SWT66 was in a way, but she wasn't too involved in the operation. ADV GCABASHE Thank you Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER You said you received general instructions about targets when you were in Swaziland, is that correct? MR MKHONZA Not general instructions, specific targets. ADV DE JAGER Specific targets? MR MKHONZA Yes. ADV DE JAGER And those specific targets were? MR MKHONZA The first one was the Municipality offices and the school bus. ADV DE JAGER Railway lines? MR MKHONZA No. ADV DE JAGER Not at all? MR MKHONZA No. ADV DE JAGER Power lines? MR MKHONZA No, they might have said that to Langa, but not to me. ADV DE JAGER Who gave you these instructions? MR MKHONZA It was Cheche. ADV DE JAGER Was that before you met Mr Mpho? MR MKHONZA Yes. ADV DE JAGER Did Mr Mpho give you any instructions? MR MKHONZA No. ADV DE JAGER So at that stage you had to carry out certain operations here before you met Mr Mpho? MR MKHONZA Yes. ADV DE JAGER What did you report back to Mr Cheche about these operations? MR MKHONZA We told him that is Langa and myself, that the one here in Johannesburg, would be impossible, because they wanted a report back within two weeks. In fact they said we should observe it for two weeks, two following weeks, and then we should sketch a report as to what happened, and then we did that. ADV DE JAGER And what about the Police stations or houses or ... MR MKHONZA The Police stations we didn't attempt. ADV DE JAGER What did you report back in that regard? MR MKHONZA We didn't give them a report as to whether it was impossible or not, as far as I remember we did not give them a report on that one. ADV DE JAGER How would you carry out these operations, did they tell you where to get weapons? MR MKHONZA Yes, we were going to throw hand grenades whilst the Army was on parade. ADV DE JAGER Yes, and the school bus for instance, what should you do there? MR MKHONZA The same, we would do the same with the school bus as well. ADV DE JAGER Throw hand grenades? MR MKHONZA Yes. ADV DE JAGER Where would you get the hand grenades? MR MKHONZA I had brought them already, if I remember well I brought them after I was - I can't remember, but Mr Coetzee is in a position, I gave them to him. ADV DE JAGER Who gave you the hand grenades? MR MKHONZA It was Cheche, yes. ADV DE JAGER You think it was or you are sure it was? MR MKHONZA Yes, it was Cheche. Although he did not give them directly to me, what happened there, they would take a car, we used to go in and out in a car and then when you get to a point, they would take the car, go and load those things into the car. They would not give it directly to you. ADV DE JAGER But they load it into the car and then you will drive off in the car? MR MKHONZA Yes. ADV DE JAGER Were you never aware that the lady was taken to a farm or somewhere else, you never heard anything about her after the arrest? MR MKHONZA No. ADV DE JAGER And you were convinced that the arrest was an ordinary lawful arrest? MR MKHONZA Yes. ADV DE JAGER Now, you would be the only one that could give evidence against her, wasn't that so? MR MKHONZA Would give evidence against who? ADV DE JAGER Against Ms Simelane? MR MKHONZA I think so, yes. ADV DE JAGER And you didn't know whether she was an MK member? MR MKHONZA To me it appeared as if she was an MK member, because I think Mpho wouldn't send somebody that is not an MK member, to me. That was my understanding. ADV DE JAGER So that was the only basis that because she was sent to you, you assumed that she was an MK member? MR MKHONZA Yes. ADV DE JAGER There was no evidence, nobody told you? MR MKHONZA No. ADV DE JAGER She never admitted of being an MK member? MR MKHONZA No, she didn't, no. ADV DE JAGER You didn't ask her? MR MKHONZA No, I didn't. ADV DE JAGER So she could be a student coming home? MR MKHONZA That could be possible. ADV DE JAGER Did you know whether she was a student? MR MKHONZA No, I didn't know that, I only heard it here. ADV DE JAGER You didn't what she had been doing or where her parents were staying or anything? MR MKHONZA No, I didn't know anything about her. ADV DE JAGER While sitting there with the lady in the cafe, what did you talk about? MR MKHONZA We didn't talk much because when she got there, I arrived there first and my juice was almost finished, and then I just ordered and then she just drank it quickly, because she said she didn't have enough time. ADV DE JAGER So in the meantime you start spending the R100? MR MKHONZA No, we didn't spend the whole of the R100-00. ADV DE JAGER Yes. Right, okay, let's - but when you met her there, it was the first time you had met her? MR MKHONZA Yes, it was my first time. ADV DE JAGER Did you introduce yourself? MR MKHONZA Yes, but the way Mpho had instructed me to, yes. ADV DE JAGER What did you say, what is your name? MR MKHONZA The name I was given by Mpho, it was Dan and then this lady when she got there, she said are you, I think she said "are you Dan Motsa from Tzaneen", that was the communication code that we had to use. I would understand that that would mean that this is the right person I am supposed to meet, because if you talk something different, then it would mean this is not the right person. ADV DE JAGER You weren't told that she would wear say a blue jersey or anything? MR MKHONZA No, I was supposed to wear something that she would identify me with. ADV DE JAGER You didn't know who you would meet there? MR MKHONZA I only knew it was a lady, but not how does she look, I didn't know. ADV DE JAGER Or how she would be dressed? MR MKHONZA No. ADV DE JAGER You didn't know how old she would be or anything? MR MKHONZA No, I didn't know anything about her. ADV DE JAGER Now after you had met, what did she say? Did she tell you listen, I am here from Soweto, I am Ms so and so, or didn't she give a name? MR MKHONZA No, she didn't tell me her name. ADV DE JAGER Did she speak about coming from Swaziland? MR MKHONZA No. ADV DE JAGER She didn't tell you anything about that at all? MR MKHONZA No. ADV DE JAGER She didn't tell you that she is carrying a message or anything? MR MKHONZA No. ADV DE JAGER So in fact she told you nothing about material or anything? MR MKHONZA No, she didn't tell me anything about material and things, but the impression I had was that she was going to lead me to a place, she was going to tell me everything when we got into the car, of which didn't happen. ADV DE JAGER Did she sort of invite you out of the place? MR MKHONZA No. ADV DE JAGER I should go and show you something or anything? MR MKHONZA No, I said to her it is not safe to talk anything here concerning our involvement, we will talk in the car. Then we went into the car park, but ... ADV DE JAGER So why did you gain the impression that she would lead you to some place? MR MKHONZA It was because Mpho had told me that she would give me something, some material so because I saw that she did not have any material with her, I thought maybe she was going to take me to a place. ADV DE JAGER She could have a letter in her pocket somewhere? MR MKHONZA Well, that could be possible, but that is the impression I had. ADV DE JAGER So in fact in this matter, as far as the law is concerned, you have done nothing wrong? MR MKHONZA As far as I know, I haven't done anything wrong except that I was part of the arrest. I lured her into the arrest, that is, yes. ADV DE JAGER But you thought it was quite a lawful arrest? MR MKHONZA Yes, I thought so. ADV DE JAGER There was nothing wrong, according to the law at that time, to arrest her? MR MKHONZA No. ADV DE JAGER So when did you find out there was something wrong? MR MKHONZA When this thing appeared in the papers and the family was looking for me. ADV DE JAGER But even then, even if the family was looking for you, you still according to your own knowledge, had done nothing wrong? MR MKHONZA Yes, because I still feel I didn't do anything wrong, except that I lured her into the trap. ADV DE JAGER Yes, but it was a lawful trap as far as you were concerned at that stage? MR MKHONZA Yes. ADV DE JAGER You believed she was an MK? MR MKHONZA Yes. ADV DE JAGER Right, perhaps your lawyer could help us in connection with why are you asking for amnesty. MR LAMEY Must I ... CHAIRPERSON No, no. MR LAMEY Shall I just leave ... CHAIRPERSON Yes. What I want to ask you, just describe Strongman to us please. We know that he is Mozambican. MR MKHONZA Yes, I know him. He was tall, well when I say well built, he was tough, I would say. CHAIRPERSON Is that where he got this name from, Strongman? MR MKHONZA I only know him as Strongman, yes. CHAIRPERSON So did this name fit his appearance? MR MKHONZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON He was a strong man? MR MKHONZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And what was he actually doing? MR MKHONZA I cannot comment on that one, because when I joined them, he was staying in that house that I referred to as a safe house, with another one Immanuel. I would just see them transporting people and I wasn't too close to them, you know. CHAIRPERSON But you knew that he was somehow linked to the Security Police? MR MKHONZA Yes. Because I would see him at Mr Coetzee's place. CHAIRPERSON Was he close to Coetzee? MR MKHONZA Yes, he was working with him. CHAIRPERSON Was he working with Coetzee? MR MKHONZA Yes. CHAIRPERSON You are not sure exactly what his duties were? MR MKHONZA No. CHAIRPERSON What language did he speak? MR MKHONZA He was Portuguese. CHAIRPERSON Portuguese? MR MKHONZA Yes, he was talking Portuguese. CHAIRPERSON And when he was communicating with you, broken English or what did he speak? MR MKHONZA Yes, broken English, yes. CHAIRPERSON Broken English? Very well. Mr Lamey? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY In paragraph, in your amnesty application, I refer to paragraph 1.2 Mr Mkhonza, you say - is it correct that you didn't receive as such formal training in the Police, is that correct? MR MKHONZA Yes, I had never been to college. MR LAMEY You were used as an agent from the beginning? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Am I correct if I assume that because you didn't have formal training as other Policemen did, you did not really know what the legal mechanics of arrest and so? MR MKHONZA That is correct. MR LAMEY You were not trained to do that? MR MKHONZA Yes, I was not trained. MR LAMEY You also have stated in your application that you assumed that the arrest was lawful, but you cannot be sure whether it was lawful or not? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Now when you later heard about the report of the disappearance of the lady, Simelane, what has crossed your mind about this, did you start thinking perhaps differently about your involvement, that there could have been some legality or unlawfulness about it and she could have perhaps been kidnapped? ADV DE JAGER Mr Lamey, you are re-examining. Carry on but put your questions carefully? MR LAMEY As it pleases you. Let me just rephrase the question Mr Mkhonza. About your involvement in this whole thing, you learned certain things later in the Sowetan Report, that she disappeared? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY What did you think about your involvement in this regard? MR MKHONZA I thought as the person who had met this lady, I was also involved in a way. MR LAMEY There have been reports about her disappearance as such, what did you think, did you come to realise in your mind something about this, which wouldn't appear normal? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY What did you think then about your involvement in this regard? MR MKHONZA I thought I would also be implicated in the whole thing. MR LAMEY Implicated in what? MR MKHONZA In her disappearance. MR LAMEY Is that what prompted you to apply also for amnesty? MR MKHONZA Yes. MR LAMEY Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions in re-examination. Mr Visser, has referred to I think an annexure to Form 1, which is part of Exhibit Z1 where particulars of the acts and offences also relating to the involvement in the kidnapping or arrest, I just want to explain something and that is that at the stage when we as legal representatives receive, when several State witnesses were sort of referred to us by the Office of the Attorney General and for the purpose of representing them for their amnesty applications, like in the case of Mr Mkhonza, there were initial applications submitted which were done with the assistance of the staff of the Attorney General. As you see that there wee references made to statements of the Attorney General, we did not have firstly signed copies of that at that stage or access thereto and our task was to obtain, to consult, obviously further with the people, and to hear from them as their legal representatives as to what their disclosure is and their involvement. In view of time constraints and the deadline at that stage, and as a result of the several applicants that we had, which we had to deal with at that stage, we were given to understand if I remember correctly, by Mr Jerome Chaskalson at that stage, that we could merely just summarise the event and then furnish the details and particulars later. That is exactly what we did. What is annexure 1 to Form 1, was based on the available information that we had that that would have been possible, possible involvement relating to kidnapping or arrest. That is why it was worded in that fashion. Obviously later when the supplemented application was done in consultation, the involvement and the knowledge of the applicant, became more clear. I just want to place that on record. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Lamey, that is noted. Are you through with Mr Mkhonza? MR LAMEY I am through Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Mkhonza, you are excused. MR LAMEY I think Mr Mkhonza is asking for an opportunity to say something else. MR MKHONZA Before I am excused here, I would like to say to the family of Nokuthula Simelane that I am very sorry to have been part of the whole thing like luring her into the trap, but my involvement in her disappearance at Carlton Centre, I still say I don't know anything about her, what happened thereafter, but it is true, she came to meet me and I met her, but we last saw each other there. I am just asking for forgiveness that I trapped her into the whole thing. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Mkhonza. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Lamey, who is next? MR LAMEY Thank you Mr Chairman, the next applicant will be Mr Veyi.