amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-03 JOHANNESBURG 13 GERT KOTZEE GENIS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53373&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_jhb_990521jh.htm CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Genis? GERT KOTZEE GENIS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Chair then we place before you a statement which we drew last night in order to attempt to assist for General Genis the next exhibit number appears to be Exhibit DD. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER And we would refer to that. Mr Genis you are an applicant for amnesty before the current Honourable Committee and your amnesty application has to do with the events regarding the abduction and detention of Mr Herbert Mbali. Is that correct? MR GENIS Yes that is correct. MR VISSER Your amnesty application appears in bundle 1 from page 1 - 9, do you confirm the truth and correctness of the content of that application subject to an amendment which we will shortly make? MR GENIS Yes that is correct. MR VISSER You received a document which you've studied, it has been served before the Committee as Exhibit A, it is a document with the heading "General Background to Amnesty Applications". Have you studied that document? MR GENIS Yes. MR VISSER And did you find that that document is a precise explanation of your position with regard to the struggle of the past? MR GENIS Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER Now that document is a general document and it deals with aspects of the struggle of the past and matters or events which occurred from the beginning of the '80's, you would have surmised this? MR GENIS Yes that is correct. MR VISSER While this application that we are dealing with now has to do with an event that took place in 1972? MR GENIS Yes that is correct. MR VISSER Just briefly, in 1972 was there already at that stage a sign that the revolutionary struggle within the country was under way or perhaps you could just answer that question at first? MR GENIS Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER And were there already acts of sabotage and terrorist attacks during the early '70's? MR GENIS Yes. MR VISSER Perhaps for the sake of background this matter joins the matter surrounding the person by the name of Mr Mumbaris, M-U-M-B-A-R-I-S, is that correct? MR GENIS Yes. MR VISSER And in the booklet written by General Stadler "The Other Side of the Story", on page 29, he discusses what he refers to as the Mumbaris fiasco and before that he has given a summary of the development of the struggle, is that correct? MR GENIS Yes. MR VISSER This matter was brought to your attention yesterday evening, the Ntuli Detachment of 1967 is referred to and then he takes it through to Mumbaris in 1972 and it is clear according to this booklet and I want to ask you whether or not this is also your information with regard to that stage, that at that stage there were already infiltrations for the purposes of acts of terrorism in the Republic? MR GENIS Yes. MR VISSER Mr Genis, in your application paragraph 7 you have stated not applicable with regard to questions a(i) and a(ii). What is the situation, were you a supporter of any political party during 1972? MR GENIS Yes Chairperson. MR VISSER Which party? MR GENIS The National Party. MR VISSER Very well. If we may go to page 2 paragraph 1, in your amnesty form itself there was no summary or explanation of your career with the police and we thought it advisable to give a summary of this to the Committee should they wish to refer to it. However apparently, you have told me this morning that something was omitted which should have been included and you mentioned this to me yesterday evening. What was that? MR GENIS Chairperson, I'm referring to paragraph 3 marked paragraphs 1 to 11, paragraph 10 - "Johannesburg" must be replaced by "Cape Town". Paragraph 11 must read "1983 - 1985, Johannesburg". And then an additional paragraph 12 - "1985 -1986 SAP Headquarters Pretoria". MR VISSER Very well and those amendments you then confirm that that was your career as an officer with the police. Then from paragraph 2, could you please inform the Committee regarding your involvement in this matter? MR GENIS During 1972 I was the Divisional Commander of the Security Branch in the Orange Free State and I was stationed in Bloemfontein. From security surveys I was aware in 1972 that one Alexander Mumbaris and his wife were arrested at the Koopfontein Hek Border Post between the R.S.A. and the Botswana border, that subsequent investigations had brought to light that Mumbaris would infiltrate a group of 26 specially trained MK members to the R.S.A. with the objective of establishing a revolutionary climate in the R.S.A. and committing acts of terrorism, that most of the group had been arrested with the exception of Martin Tembisele Hani, Herbert Mbali and Lambert Moloi, that the latter mentioned three MK members had succeeded in escaping to Lesotho where the Lesotho Government had given them asylum, that they'd continued with their planning in Lesotho for acts of terrorism which they wished to commit in the R.S.A. MR VISSER Just a moment. Mr Genis, what are you referring to when you speak of security surveys. Could you please tell the Committee what those were? MR GENIS Chairperson, at Pretoria head office I compiled a weekly document during which all the security trends were sketched, all the events of the past week and this document would then be circulated to all security branches in secrecy. MR VISSER Very well, will you continue with paragraph 6? MR GENIS The abovementioned persons consequently held a serious threat and danger for the government of South Africa and played an important role in the struggle of the ANC/SACP to topple the government of the R.S.A. with violence. Herbert Mbali, with respect Chairperson, I was informed that this person objects to the alias and for convenience I will not bring that into the evidence. MR VISSER But at that stage he was known to you as MK Lenny Boy? MR GENIS Yes he was known as the Advocate has just referred to him. MR VISSER But you can just refer to him as Herbert Mbali. What would you like to say about him? MR GENIS Herbert Mbali received military training in East Bloc countries and was a prominent MK figure. Major General Piet Kruger who in that stage as far as I can remember was in command of the security branch of the R.S.A. as a brigadier and has since passed away, gave me and order to attempt everything to lure Mbali to the R.S.A. I understood that I was to attempt firstly to get hold of Mbali in a legal manner. The point at which it was decided to abduct Mbali never was discussed seeing as that decision was taken by an informer in Lesotho as it will emerge after this. I conveyed the order to attempt to lure Mbali from Lesotho to my staff officer, the former or now deceased Major Vorster who was a Captain at that stage. He apparently recruited an informer in Lesotho who was a member of the Lesotho police to attempt to lure Mbali to the R.S.A. The informer was offered a considerable reward should he succeed. According to what I later heard from Major Vorster, the attempts by the informer to lure Mbali to the R.S.A. were futile. Apparently the informer then took the decision on his own to abduct Mbali. I was informed that the informer persuaded one of his colleagues to help him to arrest Mbali. They cuffed Mbali and the informer went with him through the Maseru Bridge border post to the R.S.A. after which he contacted Vorster and handed Mbali over to him. After that Vorster contacted me and told me what had happened. I contacted head office and conveyed the news that Mbali was in the custody of the security branch Orange Free State. MR VISSER You also reported to General Kruger how it happened or how it came to be that Mbali ended up in your custody? MR GENIS No, not in particular at that stage. I told Brigadier Kruger that we had the person regarding who the order was about. MR VISSER Very well. MR GENIS Major General Kruger gave the order that I should transport Mbali to Parys where members of head office would take over. The objective was to interrogate Mbali and to prosecute him. Major Vorster and I transferred Mbali to Parys by vehicle where members of head office took over. I can recall that Captain Trevor Baker was one of those persons. MR VISSER Can you recall who the others were? MR GENIS Later I was informed that it was Captain Schoon and I've now forgotten the name of the other officer. In between, the colleague of the informer who had assisted him with the arrest of Mbali became suspicious and reported the matter. The investigation which was conducted by the Lesotho Police brought the abduction of Mbali to light. The Lesotho Government immediately protested against the R.S.A. government and the R.S.A. government decided that Mbali should be given back to the Lesotho Government. He was returned uninjured to the Lesotho Government. The acts and omissions which I committed, I committed not for my own gain but in the execution of my official duties as well as within the execution of an order given by General Piet Kruger. I regarded this as part of the opposition to the struggle. My conduct was aimed against the support of the ANC/SACP Alliance and I believed that my actions fell within the scope of my service as a policeman and in the execution of my express or sworn duties. I request, with respect, that amnesty be granted to me for my acts and omissions in this regard. MR VISSER If you then look at page 2, what that would involve then would be abduction or human theft. It is so when Vorster told you that Mbali had been abducted, you didn't send him back, you took him to Parys and there associated yourself with the abduction? MR GENIS Yes that is correct. MR VISSER And you then also asked for any illegal or illegitimate detention or deprivation of freedom, possible obstruction of justice, defeating the ends of justice because you did not disclose the facts. Then there was also the border legislation and regulations and which you disobeyed as well as conspiracy and aiding and abetting as well as accessory with regard to any of the abovementioned? MR GENIS Yes. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Visser. Ms Thabethe? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Chair, I would like to put it on record that besides the fact that I'm evidence leader I'm assisting Mr Mbali in this application. Mr Genis, I just want to find out, before you actually knew that Mr Herbert Mbali was in Lesotho, did you before that make attempts to look for him within the country? Did you know about him before he went to Lesotho? MR GENIS Chairperson, I only heard about Mbali after he had arrived in Lesotho. However, I did know about the existence of the Mumbaris group but I didn't know of which individual members the group consisted. MS THABETHE Why I'm asking you this, it's because Mr Mbali has instructed me that there were attempts before he left the country or when he left the country there were attempts that were made to look for him in South Africa and his family was approached and harassed in the process. Would you know anything about this? MR GENIS Chairperson, I cannot comment on that, I was not involved in any such action, I know nothing of that. MS THABETHE So I guess it would be correct for me to say you wouldn't know also of an incident where when they were looking for him one of his relatives got killed in the process? Would it be correct for me to say you don't know anything about that as well? MR GENIS Chairperson, I know nothing of that. MS THABETHE Now you say when Mr Mbali was abducted from Lesotho, he was taken first to Orange Free State and then to Parys. For what reason was he taken there for? MR GENIS I received the order from General Kruger that I was to take him to Parys. MS THABETHE Whereabouts in Parys did you take him, did you take him to a police station or a safe house, whereabouts in Parys did you take him? MR GENIS I took him to the police station where he was handed over. MS THABETHE After he was handed over do you know anything as to what happened? I mean besides the fact that there was an outcry from Lesotho that he should be brought back. Were you involved in him being taken back to Lesotho? MR GENIS Chairperson, I never again saw him before this morning. I was not involved in his handing over. MR GENIS Mr Chair, before I stop my cross-examination can I just get further instructions? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS THABETHE Thanks. Thank you Mr Chair, I'm indebted to you. Mr Genis, you say in your statement that Mr Mbali was delivered unharmed, he was not injured. I think it's in paragraph 18 if I'm not mistaken. My instructions are to ask you how would you know this if you were not involved in the whole process of him being taken back and in the process of abduction? MR GENIS Chairperson, when Mbali was delivered to me that Sunday morning he had no visible injuries. Afterwards I was informed that when he was delivered back to the Lesotho Government two or three days later, he was medically examined at Maseru by the District Physician of Ladybrand, I think it was a Dr Brand, the examination was conducted upon the insistence of the South African Government. I was also informed that the examination was undertaken by a doctor of his own choice. Whether or not this doctor was appointed by Lesotho is unknown to me. However, I was informed that he had no injuries. MS THABETHE Well Mr Genis, I'm asking you this because my instructions are that when Mr Mbali was abducted he says he was beaten up at some point he was even strangled. Would you know anything about this? MR GENIS I know nothing of that, not in my presence and not in my office and also not on the way to Parys. It wasn't necessary to do that. MS THABETHE My further instructions, Mr Genis, are that when Mr Mbali was brought back to Lesotho he says his doctor examined him and there was clear evidence of assaults because there were marks on his body. Would you know anything about this? MR GENIS I know nothing of that. MS THABETHE Would you deny it though? MR GENIS I cannot comment on that Chairperson because I wasn't there and I didn't see him. MS THABETHE Well my instructions are that his doctor did examine him and he found marks on him. MR GENIS I don't know about that Chairperson. Might I just add Chairperson that we received no complaints with regard to that from either Mbali or the Lesotho Government insofar as possible assault is concerned. MS THABETHE Thank you Mr Genis, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE CHAIRPERSON I'm just enquiring Ms Thabethe, have you got any instructions as to who was responsible for the assaults on Mr Mbali? MS THABETHE Mr Chair, I did ask him about it, he says he doesn't know the names of the people who actually carried out the assault, all he remembers is that from Maseru he was taken to Parys and from Parys he was taken to Bloemfontein and he was assaulted when he arrived at Parys but I didn't want to put it to the witness because the witness had testified earlier on that he never saw him after he had handed him over to Parys. CHAIRPERSON Yes, no it might be - I'm going to put it to the witness. Do you say that Mr Mbali was assaulted in South Africa? MS THABETHE Yes Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Just give me his movements again? He was taken in Maseru and then transported to? MS THABETHE To Parys. CHAIRPERSON To Parys and then to Bloemfontein you said? MS THABETHE Yes. MR GENIS It was first Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON Ms Thabethe, can you just make sure? MR VISSER Perhaps I can assist Mr Mbali to recall. What happened he was abducted from Lesotho, taken to the Maseru Bridge to Bloemfontein, then to Parys, then to Pretoria. MS THABETHE Well - sorry. MR VISSER Then to a little place called Platjan P-L-A-T-J-A-N. Then you'll hear Brigadier Schoon give evidence about that. Then back to Pretoria. CHAIRPERSON I'm just trying to catch up with you. So it's Maseru, Bloemfontein? MR VISSER Bloemfontein, Parys. CHAIRPERSON Parys? MR VISSER Pretoria. CHAIRPERSON Pretoria? MR VISSER Platjan. CHAIRPERSON Platjan? MR VISSER Back to Pretoria. CHAIRPERSON Pretoria? MR VISSER And then to Lesotho, we don't know exactly how, it may have gone to Bloemfontein, it may have gone to Maseru, we don't know. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR VISSER But then back to Lesotho. CHAIRPERSON That was the handing back? MR VISSER Pardon? CHAIRPERSON That was the handing back? MR VISSER That was the handing back, yes. But my witnesses weren't involved in that. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MS THABETHE My instructions are that he says from Maseru he was taken to Parys and then from Parys to Bloemfontein but he says because he was blindfolded he wouldn't comment about the fact that whether he was taken back to Bloemfontein but he says he was taken from Maseru to Parys and then to Bloemfontein. He might have been taken back to Parys, he cannot comment on that. CHAIRPERSON Alright and then I just want to, before I deal with it, just clarify, he was assaulted, was it in Parys? Alright I wait for you. MS THABETHE He says he was assaulted in Maseru, he was assaulted in Parys, he was assaulted in Bloemfontein but he wasn't assaulted in Pretoria. CHAIRPERSON I assume he doesn't know the identity of the assailants? MS THABETHE Sorry Mr Chair, I'm just taking instructions quickly? Thank you Mr Chair, I'm indebted to you and my learned colleague. My instructions, Mr Chair, are that from Maseru he was abducted by a guy named Peter Bolofo, B-0-L-O-F-O, and another person in a Lesotho uniform, Lesotho Police uniform. He was also carrying a firearm and apparently there were six policemen altogether and then he says he fought back but they beat him up and because the other uniformed police was carrying a firearm, that had to drag him but he was beaten up there as well. In Orange Free State and Parys or in Parys he said the same people who had assaulted him in Maseru also assaulted him in Parys and in Bloemfontein he said that he wouldn't know, he wouldn't be able to identify who was beating him up because they kept on changing, taking turns I guess. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Ms Thabethe. Mr Genis, I would like if it is possible for you to comment regarding some of the allegations put by Mr Mbali. He alleges firstly that he was assaulted on South African territory. What do you have to say about that? MR GENIS I don't know about that, Chairperson, and definitely not in my office in Bloemfontein. That is the only stage at which I had anything to do with him and definitely not between Bloemfontein and Parys. CHAIRPERSON I just want to understand you correctly, your offices were in Bloemfontein at that stage? MR GENIS Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And did you take him into custody at Bloemfontein at your offices? MR GENIS Yes he was brought to my office by Major Vorster. CHAIRPERSON And did you not notice any injuries on him? MR GENIS No. CHAIRPERSON And Vorster and who else brought him to your office there in Bloemfontein? Were those the people who had abducted him in Maseru or not? MR GENIS No, they were not present, I heard afterwards that the informer had been a Lesotho Policeman who had been assisted by another policeman so it is correct according to Mr Mbali's evidence that Lesotho policemen were involved in his abduction. CHAIRPERSON So if I understand you correctly, and that is also what Mr Visser has just told us, he was brought directly from Lesotho to you in Bloemfontein? MR GENIS Yes that's correct. CHAIRPERSON And for how long did he remain with you in Bloemfontein? MR GENIS Chairperson, I would say approximately an hour to two hours or three hours. It was early on a Sunday morning. We spent a bit of time, we didn't realise or couldn't have known when the party from Pretoria would arrive at Parys. CHAIRPERSON And he was not assaulted there? MR GENIS No, Chairperson. If I might assist the Committee, he alleges that he was blindfolded. Yes that is correct, when he arrived at my office he was bound with handcuffs and he was blindfolded. I had the cuffs removed, I lifted the blindfold and we had coffee together because you can't have a cup of coffee with cuffed hands. CHAIRPERSON So was he in your company all the time? MR GENIS Yes he was in my company until we went to drop him off in Parys later that morning. CHAIRPERSON And you say that in Bloemfontein, he says that in Bloemfontein that he was assaulted but he cannot identify his assailants. What is your commentary regarding that? MR GENIS Chairperson at no stage in my presence was he assaulted by any person. CHAIRPERSON So he was in your company all the time and he was not assaulted while he was in Bloemfontein? MR GENIS No Chairperson. We were on such an amiable level that I could offer him a cup of coffee. CHAIRPERSON And what was his mood like? He had been abducted from Maseru, was he relatively affable or did you struggle to obtain co-operation from him? MR GENIS By nature of the situation he was upset, Chairperson, however we could communicate freely. CHAIRPERSON Then you took him to Parys and left him in the custody of some of your colleagues there? MR GENIS Yes, I left him in the custody of those three colleagues. CHAIRPERSON And that would be where Mr Schoon becomes involved? MR GENIS Yes, Schoon, Baker and a third officer. CHAIRPERSON And for how long were you present in Parys? MR GENIS If I recall the incident, I wasn't there for a long time, ten minutes perhaps where we chatted colloquially among one another. It was clear that the party who had taken him over was in a hurry. CHAIRPERSON Was he assaulted there while you were in Parys? MR GENIS No Chairperson, the doors stood wide open. CHAIRPERSON And you didn't see him again after that? MR GENIS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you also didn't come to hear of how much longer he had remained in South Africa and so forth? MR GENIS Later, I was informed that it was two to three days at the very most so it was a relatively short period of time. CHAIRPERSON You say that you offered this informer a considerable reward? MR GENIS Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you offer him quite a sum of money? MR GENIS Yes I cannot recall the exact amount any more but I would like to assist the Committee. This informer who was a member of the Lesotho Police had to get out of his country. CHAIRPERSON Is that afterwards? MR GENIS That very same morning still and after we had returned from Parys, on actually the Monday, the next day I saw him. He requested political asylum because he feared for his life in Lesotho. CHAIRPERSON What happened to him? MR GENIS Chairperson, I don't know whether or not he received asylum but he definitely obtained residency. CHAIRPERSON Did you pay him? MR GENIS Yes, we were responsible for his maintenance, we provided accommodation and necessities for quite some time. CHAIRPERSON Did you also give him the reward? MR GENIS Yes I assume so, I can't recall the exact amount any more. CHAIRPERSON Did you foresee that something like this could happen that if you offer this guy a lot of money he would do something irresponsible? MR GENIS Initially we said that the idea was to lure him and to arrest him in R.S.A. territory because we knew what international implications such a cross-border incident would have. We had dealt with this kind of thing before. However, Pretoria became impatient later on and they contacted me telephonically various times to ask when they were going to get Mbali. My viewpoint to General Kruger was that they had to be patient, that this wasn't the sort of thing that could be done overnight and I suspect that Major Vorster who liaised with the informer could possibly also have brought the urgency to his attention. Why Pretoria wanted him so urgently is still unknown to me today. I don't know what they wanted to do. CHAIRPERSON Thus, did you foresee that this sort of thing could happen, that they would seize him ultimately? MR GENIS Yes Chairperson. Might I just say that it would have been much easier and swifter if we had undertaken or conducted the so called seizure action ourselves but we guarded against that. However, we still realised that it could not be excluded to bring him in by means of violence. CHAIRPERSON And that during the process he could be assaulted or injured? MR GENIS Yes Chairperson, abduction is not a voluntary action and if a measure of violence were to emanate from that, it would seem to me that injury would be normal or a normal occurrence. CHAIRPERSON If he was assaulted in the R.S.A. can you think why it would have taken place in South Africa? MR GENIS No Chairperson, these events are shocking to me as I've heard them this morning. We were not that interested or involved in the events, Pretoria wanted him and it would appear senseless to me for us simply to assault him, I did not question him regarding his political affiliations, that was not my task, I didn't see it as that. I left that up to Pretoria. CHAIRPERSON And you never heard subsequently that there was talk of his being beaten by the South African Police? MR GENIS No, never. On the contrary, I never had the opportunity to discuss this with the Pretoria men. CHAIRPERSON Did you at any stage tell Mr Kruger it was actually an abduction because you say that first discussion was for you to tell him that you actually had the man? MR GENIS Yes at a later stage I told him that we had abducted him by means of an informer. MR GENIS And what was Kruger's reaction? MR GENIS I cannot recall what his reaction was because on the Monday when the abduction came to light Pretoria and Lesotho were in contact with each other on diplomatic level. CHAIRPERSON Can you recall whether Mr Kruger had approved it and said it's okay that you abducted him, it's acceptable? MR GENIS Chairperson, I thought that General Kruger after having given his order had left it up to my discretion regarding how we were to obtain Mr Mbali. He was eager for us to get him but as he became more impatient he still didn't tell us go and seize the man. CHAIRPERSON Well it would appear to me that he was delivered back and it didn't seem as if the South African authorities approved of the abduction? MR GENIS No, I don't believe so and that is why at a very early stage they gave the order for him to be returned. CHAIRPERSON Have you seen the medical report written by Dr Brand? MR GENIS I haven't seen it. I assume that the officers in Pretoria who were present during the delivery would have taken the certificate back to Pretoria. That is my inference. CHAIRPERSON And you say that was actually the South African authorities who insisted upon the medical examination? MR GENIS Yes, the District Physician of Ladybrand as well as a doctor from the other party CHAIRPERSON Very well, do you know whether Mr Mbali was given any reward or remuneration? MR GENIS As far as I know, I never heard about him ever again so I don't know anything. This morning in this hall is the first time I have seen him again since then. CHAIRPERSON And you never again got hold of him, there was no other way for you to contact him? MR GENIS Chairperson, with respect, my interest ended at that point. CHAIRPERSON But you didn't really have any personal or jurisdictional interest in him, it was more like a favour you did for another jurisdiction? MR GENIS I must say Chairperson, the allegations that he makes are actually aimed against the system, the system which I represented. They cannot directly be aimed against me, it wasn't our case that had to be investigated, he wasn't a suspect for the Bloemfontein or the Free State area. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Genis. ADV DE JAGER Was any departmental or other action taken against you because you abducted him? MR GENIS No Chairperson. MR GENIS Were you ever chastised for it? MR GENIS No Chairperson. Let me just say that the then Commissioner contacted me and expressed his dissatisfaction to me with regard to the incident. It then appeared that there had been a short between the Pretoria and Bloemfontein offices, I requested for them to come together so that they could clear up the matter because no steps were ever taken against me, I was never chastised for it either. ADV GCABASHE Mr Genis, the dissatisfaction that was expressed by Pretoria, that related to the manner in which Mbali had been abducted, what did it relate to? MR GENIS Chairperson, such a cross-border matter as I have mentioned earlier always creates problems and the Commissioner was concerned about the detrimental influence that the incident could have on the South African Government. However, as I have said, at that stage he didn't know what the situation was. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser, any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Just a moment, I don't think there is anything. Just one thing. It is not alleged by Mr Mbali but just to state this unequivocally, you say that you personally never lifted a finger against Mr Mbali? MR GENIS No Chairperson, on the contrary I gave him coffee. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Genis, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED