amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-05-03 ISCOR CLUB HALL, VANDERBIJLPARK 1 ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA AM2778/96 BOIPATONG MASSACRE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53375&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_vbp_990503vb.htm CHAIRPERSON It has become somewhat customary that it seems that these hearings will never will resume. There are certain technical delays resulting us starting somewhat later than we were scheduled to start. We apologise for starting late but we had to attend to certain important matters. Very well now, I gather that there ise this new counsel who wants to place himself on record. Yes, would you do so Sir? MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson, before the new counsel places himself on record I just want to withdraw on behalf of certain applicants. I won't be appearing for the following applicants anymore, Jack Mbele and Timothy Stals Mazibuko, Moses Mthembu ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Wait a bit, do you have a list of those? I'm just going according to my list here. Okay you said Mazibuko, Mbele and Moses Mthembu? MR STRYDOM Moses Mthembu and Petrus Mdiniso. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR STRYDOM And the outstanding applicant Mxoliseni Mkhize is not here to give evidence and I will be withdrawing his application as well. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that he would - let me just record this for the time being. MR STRYDOM Mr Chairman, I think I must word it differently, I'm not withdrawing his application now. CHAIRPERSON I would have thought so. MR STRYDOM I don't want to do that in his absence, what I'm saying is that I won't appear on his behalf any more. CHAIRPERSON Look, now you're asking for leave to withdraw? MR STRYDOM Ja, on his behalf. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now who is your instructing attorney? MR STRYDOM My instructing attorney is the firm J H van der Merwe and that firm's representative at the hearings here is Mr Fredrech. Yes, Mr Fredrech will still be the attorney of record or J H van der Merwe for Moses Mthembu and Petrus Mdiniso but they've instructed another counsel to appear on their behalf but as far as Jack Mbele and Timothy Stals Mazibuko is concerned, Anina van der Westhuizen is the instructing attorney so J H van der Merwe ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Wait a minute, as far as who is concerned? MR STRYDOM As far as Timothy Stals Mazibuko and Jack Mbele are concerned my attorney also withdraws. Attorney Anina van der Westhuizen has been instructed to appear on their behalf. As far as the other two applicants which I withdrew from, Moses Mthembu and Petrus Mdiniso are concerned, they are still represented by the same firm of attorneys, J H van der Merwe, but another counsel has been instructed to appear on their behalf. CHAIRPERSON Yes very well. MR STRYDOM And lastly Chairperson, I would also want to mention that to the extent that I appeared on behalf of Mr Vanana Zulu on a watching brief basis, my mandate has also been ended and so has my attorneys mandate been ended. Anina van der Westhuizen also appeared on his behalf. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes. What is the name of the applicant who you have been appearing for and you are now seeking leave to withdraw from representing? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, that is Mxoliseni Mkhize. CHAIRPERSON Mxoliseni Mkhize. MR STRYDOM I think it's number 14 on the list. CHAIRPERSON We have a different list. MR STRYDOM On the form it's number 13. CHAIRPERSON Number 13 yes, 13. Do we have the same? Yes we do, okay. Mxoliseni Sibongeleni Mkhize, very well. MR LOWIES Thank you Mr Chairman, may I then place myself on record on behalf of the following applicants, Mr Jack Mbele, Mr Timothy Stals Mazibuko. My instructing attorney pertaining to these has been placed on record by my learned friend, being Anina van der Westhuizen. Regarding Petrus Mdiniso and Moses Mthembu, as you were informed Mr Chairman, I'm appearing on their behalf, the instructing attorney here is Attorney J H van der Merwe. Regarding the person who had been implicated in these hearings, Mr Vanana Zulu, I'm also appearing on his behalf, instructed by Anina van der Westhuizen. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LOWIES Chair, if it meets with your approval, I informed you in chambers and the learned Members of the Committee that there will be an application. I am now instructed that the matter had been handed or the application had been handed to Mr Chairman and the Members of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BERGER Chairperson, before my learned friend proceeds with his application, might I ask on behalf of the victims if we are entitled to an explanation for this strange state of affairs and that is that my learned friend Mr Strydom has been debriefed in respect of certain applicants and his attorney has briefed Advocate Lowies in respect of two of them, in respect of two other applicants the attorney has also changed. It appears to us that this is a stratagem designed firstly to increase costs and secondly to have more bites at the cherry so to speak, in other words to have more people to cross-examine the victims when they give their evidence. There would appear to be no other reason for this odd state of affairs. CHAIRPERSON Have you finished Sir? MR LOWIES Mr Chairman no, I would like to place on record whilst I was still busy with the notice of application, you had also been informed Mr Chairman in chambers that for the purposes of the application that I would be acting on behalf of all the applicants mentioned in the application so as to prevent duplication of applications. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LOWIES That has been informal arrangements between the parties. CHAIRPERSON Yes, okay very well. Is Mr Mazibuko here? Would you stand up Sir? Mr Mbele? We are informed that the attorney who has been representing you up until the last hearing no longer represents you, do you confirm that? MR MAZIBUKO Yes that is correct. MR MBELE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And your counsel now is Mr Lowies. Do you confirm that? MR MAZIBUKO Yes I confirm that. MR MBELE Yes I confirm that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Sit down. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu, Moses Mthembu ...(intervention) MR LOWIES May I just assist you in this regard Chairman? I understand that Mr Mthembu is not available, he is at work and he has problems attending the hearing and he requested to be excused. The situation is as follows, it has been explained to him that I would be looking after his interests even if it's in his absence. CHAIRPERSON Well at least we should have been told rather than us having to enquire about whether he is present or not. MR LOWIES I understand. CHAIRPERSON Yes very well. MR LOWIES Chair now just to assist you in that regard, this position is one hundred percent the same pertaining to Mr Petrus Mdiniso. CHAIRPERSON So both of them are not here? MR LOWIES Both are not here. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lowies, I did indicate to you in chambers that we would like to read your application first before the matter is argued and that is preferable that it should also be served on the other legal representatives as well so that they consider the application. MR LOWIES That is correct Mr Chairman and it's been done, I think there are one or two representatives who haven't received theirs yet but extra copies have been made available. It will be done in the next minute or so. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. MR LOWIES Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON We will determine in due course when it will be appropriate to hear this application. Yes, very well. Yes Mr Berger? MR BERGER Are there any others who are not present? CHAIRPERSON Yes before we get there, are there any other applicants who are not present? MR STRYDOM Yes Chairperson, I should have told Chairperson earlier on but people from the prison are not here. The first applicant is Tebogo Magubane, he is the applicant who serves sentence apparently now in Klerksdorp Prison and I've informed the people to try to get him here. The same would apply to Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, there's again uncertainty about his whereabouts, apparently he is in Sasolburg Prison, I'm investigating that. Yes I would ask that we continue in their absence, they have already testified, I will look after their interests, I've got instructions on a previous occasion. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS PRETORIUS Chairperson, Mr Mthembu has not arrived yet but apparently he is on his way. He was not - ...(indistinct) sent to the prison, but he is on his way. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS PRETORIUS Chair, he has just arrived. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. Yes Mr Berger? MR BERGER Chairperson, in anticipation of these hearings and since the last adjournment, Ms Cambanis, Advocate Malindi and I directed certain correspondence to various parties, amongst them Iscor, the South African Police, Mr Armin Kluth on behalf of the South African Defence Force and the Inkatha Freedom Party. We received certain replies which may become relevant at a later stage in these proceedings and we didn't want to hold back on anything so we've prepared bundles. Might I hand up the bundles to you, Chairperson. If they can be given an exhibit number, we're not going to refer to them at the moment but just so that my learned friends can have copies and consider their position in due course. CHAIRPERSON Okay, what was the last bundle, was it S? MR BERGER Sorry, if this then could be Exhibit T? CHAIRPERSON T, yes. MR BERGER We've made copies for the Committee, I could hand that up and then copies for my learned friends as well. CHAIRPERSON So that will be bundle T? MR BERGER As you please Chairperson. I had four copies for my learned friends, I didn't anticipate Mr Lowies being here today but it will be handed over now. Chairperson, the other point that we just wish to make and I make this on behalf of Advocate Malindi and Ms Cambanis at this stage of the proceedings, is that our learned friends, Mr Strydom and Mr da Silva have indicated that they do not intend leading any ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Wait a minute, just before you get to that? MR BERGER Yes? CHAIRPERSON Oh yes, I'm sorry, yes go ahead. MR BERGER That they do not intend leading any evidence at this stage. In particular, we would just like to make one point abundantly clear if it hasn't been made clear already and that is in regard to Advocate Strydom's clients and up until this point and I think it still continues to represent the interests of the IFP, we will argue at the end of this amnesty hearing that the applicants, amongst other things, do not qualify for amnesty because they do not meet the requirements of Section 22(a) of the Act. In other words, that they were not properly authorised to act on behalf of the Inkatha Freedom Party. Their case is that they committed these crimes on behalf of the Inkatha Freedom Party. The evidence thus far is that the person who sanctioned the attack was Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize, on his own evidence not an official of the Inkatha Freedom Party. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BERGER Nowhere in any proceedings before any Committee were we able to establish anywhere whether Inkatha Freedom Party, any official of the Inkatha Freedom Party has come forward to say that we sanctioned the attack either before or that we sanctioned the attack or approved the attack afterwards and we will argue at the end of the case that there is no evidence before the Committee of any approval either before or subsequent on behalf of the IFP. We don't want that argument to come as a surprise, we're not asking for anything to be done at this stage, we just want to make it abundantly clear that that will be the argument so that Mr Strydom can consider his position and consider whether there are not any officials of the Inkatha Freedom Party that he wants to lead evidence. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, is there anything you want to place on record? MR MAPOMA Except Chairperson to record that Mr Themba Khosa and Chief Mangosuto Buthelezi were notified and Advocate Strydom has confirmed with me that he takes care of their interests. CHAIRPERSON Yes, well just so that there is clarity on the rules to the extent that there is now representation of a group of applicants by more than one counsel. The rule that we applied to the legal representatives of the victims will also apply to the applicants and that is to say we will not allow a counsel to go over a matter which has been canvassed by the other counsel. We would please ask counsel to make sure that they don't cover the same ground that has already been covered by the other counsel. I'm directing this specifically to you Mr Lowies because you have not been here before so that you understand that that's the way you're proceeding here, do you understand? MR LOWIES Yes. CHAIRPERSON So that when you do cross-examine we would expect someone to conduct a cross-examination at least on behalf of all the applicants to the extent that they have an identity of interest. MR LOWIES May I just enquire chair, what is the position regarding Prince Vanana Zulu? CHAIRPERSON He's not an applicant is he? MR LOWIES No, he's only implicated. CHAIRPERSON Yes indeed. Yes very well. Are you ready to proceed ma'am? MS TANZER I am ready to proceed, I would just like another set of headphones, this is a bit static. CHAIRPERSON Oh really? Just for the record, we intend rising for lunch at about half past one and then we will resume at about quarter past two. Forty five minutes should be okay, is that okay? Yes very well. Have you gentlemen and lady received a copy of the application? MR BERGER We've received one copy yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You have, okay very well. During the course of the day, perhaps this evening, would you please consider the application and let us know how you intend responding to it whether you just want the matter to be argued of these papers or whether you would like to file affidavits so that we can determine, you know, when it can be heard. MR BERGER We'll let you know our attitude tomorrow morning at 9. CHAIRPERSON Yes very well. ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER Mr Nosenga, you completed and signed two forms, two form 1's in the bundle. One Form 1 was signed on the 25 September 1996 and one Form 1 was signed on the 15 May 1997. Do you verify your signatures on these forms? CHAIRPERSON Sorry to interrupt you, the applicant's application is contained in bundle R is it as I see it, is that right? MS TANZER Yes it's bundle R. Do you verify this as your signature? CHAIRPERSON Do you have bundle R in front of you? MS TANZER Yes I do have bundle R in front of me. CHAIRPERSON Oh you do. Alright, okay. As you are leading Mr Nosenga, will you be referring to bundle R? MS TANZER Yes I am. CHAIRPERSON Okay very well, now when you do so Ma'am, because it is numbered up to page 17 I think it is, would you indicate to us what page you are on, okay? MS TANZER I'll do so Mr Chair. On page 6 you find the first Form 1, is this your signature? Do you verify the signature? INTERPRETER Chairperson, the speaker is not coming through. CHAIRPERSON The testimony that you are rendering here is not for your legal representative but it is manned for us who are sitting here as well as those who are sitting at the back of this hall, so you should not speak as if you're talking to your legal representative only. So if you want to speak Zulu, if you want to speak English, go ahead and do so. MS TANZER Do you verify that this is your signature? MR NOSENGA Yes that's my signature. MS TANZER On page 13 you signed a second Form 1, do you verify that this is your signature? MR NOSENGA No, that is not my signature, I do not quite know this one very well. MS TANZER You did not sign this Form 1? MR NOSENGA No, I don't know where this comes from. MS TANZER Now on page 15 of the bundle you applied for indemnity, is that your signature? MR NOSENGA No, that is not my signature, that is not how I sign. MS TANZER So you are telling me that the only signature that is your signature in this bundle is on page 6? MR NOSENGA Yes, this is my signature. MR LAX What about the one on page 17 Ms Tanzer? MS TANZER This letter that was addressed on page 17, is this your signature? MR NOSENGA No, that's not my signature. MS TANZER Now there is also on page 8 and unsigned affidavit which deposes under oath to certain information which obviously you have not signed because it is unsigned. Have you ever seen or read this affidavit prior to my reading it to you in the prison a few days ago? CHAIRPERSON Mr Nosenga, ...(inaudible) MR NOSENGA I cannot speak louder than this. MS TANZER Had you ever seen this affidavit before? MR NOSENGA Yes this is the statement that I gave to my legal representative if I still remember very well. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not activated. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon. This is the affidavit at pages 8, 9 and 10? MS TANZER Yes, this is the affidavit I'm referring to. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Nosenga, what is your standard of education? MR NOSENGA I went as far as Standard 1. CHAIRPERSON Standard 1? MR NOSENGA Yes. MS TANZER Let me clarify, I read this affidavit to you last week in the prison. Had you seen this affidavit before I read it to you, has anybody presented this affidavit to you? MR NOSENGA I do not quite understand, would you please repeat? INTERPRETER May I just find out, is his machine tuned into the correct language? Can the technicians check that please? Mr Nosenga, do you hear Zulu in your earphones? MR NOSENGA Are you referring to my statement? INTERPRETER Just hold on, I'm going to check for you. MR LAX Peter, just so that we can announce this, what languages - yes? 4 is Sotho and English is 2? MR NOSENGA I speak Zulu. MS TANZER Alright, I think he has been now placed on the correct channel. CHAIRPERSON Can you hear now Mr Nosenga? MR NOSENGA Yes, I can hear you now. MS TANZER Alright, this affidavit on page 8, I read to you last week in the prison. Before that, had you ever seen this affidavit, has anybody read this affidavit to you at any time? MR NOSENGA Yes that is correct, many people did come, I cannot know which statement it is, so many people came to me in prison. MS TANZER No, my question is did anybody come back to read the statement that they took from you and read it to you to ask you if it was correct? MR NOSENGA No, they did not come back to read them to me since they took the statements. CHAIRPERSON Just wait a minute. You ask him whether he had seen the statement which occurs, repeated the question, which occurs at pages 8, 9 and 10, whether he had seen the statement. What was his answer there initially? Didn't he say that this is the statement that he made to his attorney? MS TANZER As I understand he wasn't hearing the correct language, it was on the wrong channel number, now he's understanding it. CHAIRPERSON Forget about whether he understood or not but I want to know what was his answer to that? MS TANZER As I heard his initial answer was yes but I think he did misunderstand the question. CHAIRPERSON Well we can clarify that with him, I want to know what was his answer to that? Yes very well. MS TANZER Has this affidavit ever been read to you before after the information was taken from you? MR NOSENGA No I do not remember. May somebody please read it to me because I do not remember very well. MS TANZER If I may Mr Commissioner, may I read the affidavit? CHAIRPERSON Have you gone through the statement with Mr Nosenga. MS TANZER Mr Ngcobo, I have gone through the statement at the prison and he indicated that he had never seen the statement before. I had read the statement and I'd read the signed statement that he had signed and we have gone through it before, yes. Last week. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nosenga, you're being asked about the statement which is - just show him the statement. Do you see that document? MR NOSENGA I am not educated. May she please read it to me? CHAIRPERSON Did you go through the document with your attorney? MR NOSENGA No, my attorney came, I do not understand, I am requesting that she reads it to me. CHAIRPERSON Are you at Sun City? MR NOSENGA No I am in Leeuhof, Vereeniging Prison. CHAIRPERSON I thought you said you were at Sun City? MR NOSENGA Before I came here I was indeed in Sun City. MS TANZER If I may clarify, he was just transferred for purposes of this hearing on Friday, this last Friday to Leeuhof. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not activated. CHAIRPERSON Was he not in prison? MS TANZER He was in prison at Sun City until Friday and on Friday he was transferred to Leeuhof. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MS TANZER Does the Commissioner require me to read this statement to him? Alright. "I, the undersigned, Andries Nosenga, do hereby make oath and say that (i) I am 23 years old, am presently serving a 16 year prison sentence for murder at the Maximum B Prison in Leeuhof. I was convicted in February 1995. I have a Standard 1 education. (ii) I resided at 671 Newman Road in Everton until 1990 when I left the township and went to live in the kwaMadala Hostel in Sebokeng. There I joined the Inkatha Freedom Party, the IFP. Themba Khosa was the chairperson of the IFP in the Vaal Triangle. The IFP used KwaMadala Hostel as a base from which they would launch attacks on residents of the township. (iii) I was part of a group from the hostel that went on the rampage in Boipatong in June 1992. Before we left the township we performed various rituals. Just before we were about to leave, Sergeant Peens of the SAP came and gave Katisi Victor Kezwa some money. Themba Khosa also took guns from Peens. (iv) When we got out of the hostel onto the road we were picked up by a police casspir driven by a white man whose name I don't know. In the Hippo there was Chaka of the security branch, a white policeman known to me as Rooikop who had red hair, Peens and our driver. There were fourteen or fifteen IFP members inside the Hippo. Others were walking alongside. Those that I remember who were in the Hippo were Gatchene, who had ordered us to get into the Hippo, Rubin Themba, Blackie, Makuka and Dondo. (v) ...(intervention) MR NOSENGA I just want to say that I don't know this statement, the statement that says I was sentenced to sixteen years. MS TANZER This statement has never been read to you before I read it to you last week in Sun City, is that correct? MR NOSENGA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you now recognise this statement? MR NOSENGA Yes I understand the statement which she is reading now. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that this is not your statement? MR NOSENGA I don't know anything about the sixteen years and Themba Khosa being chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS TANZER Alright, can we then go to the statement on page 18? CHAIRPERSON Well, let me understand this, are you saying that you now recognise this statement as a whole? MR NOSENGA Yes I recognise the one that she's just read now but it is not mine, it is not true that I was in jail for sixteen years or that Themba Khosa was the chairperson. The legal representative first read it to me in prison. CHAIRPERSON She has not yet finished reading it, there is still a lot to go, but are you saying that what she has just read is what you don't agree with? You see the reason why your attorney is asking you these questions, there is a statement here which we are told she has gone through with you before. It bears your name but it is not signed, okay? MR NOSENGA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now what your attorney wants to find out is whether do you know what is written in that statement. Some of the things that may be in the statement may be true, you may know some of the things in that you may be 23 years of age, you may have resided at 671 Newman Road, but what she wants to find out is this whole statement, do you know it? Did you make this statement to anyone? Is that what you want? MS TANZER Not whether he made the statement but once the statement was put down in writing was it ever read to him and presented to him. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NOSENGA It was not read to me, it was first read to me by my legal representatives in prison. ADV. SIGODI I'm sorry, I did not get that answer, what was your answer about the statement. MR NOSENGA I said my legal representatives first read it to me in prison, it had not been read to me before then. INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. CHAIRPERSON No one had read this statement to you before, before you had tendered it? MR NOSENGA Yes I do not remember. What I know is that my attorney first read it to me in prison, that was the first time. MS TANZER I now refer you to page 18 of the bundle. A sworn statement which bears your signature, do you verify that this is your signature? MR NOSENGA It is possible that I signed this statement but I have made many statements before. MS TANZER Page 22 of the bundle. MR MAPOMA I'm sorry Chairperson, may I just clarify? This bundle R, there was an affidavit which was handed in in supplement to bundle R where pages 18 up to 23 were added. Unfortunately it was not attached into this bundle. MS TANZER This was a statement that was taken from you in the prison in Groenpunt and the fact that you signed it in January whilst at the TRC here, before that, do you not recognise the signature. MR NOSENGA Yes I recognise my name. MR LAX Do you - sorry, could I just clarify something here, your answer was whether - you were asked whether this was your statement, you said "yes, I recognise my name." Does that mean you recognise your signature as being your name on the bottom of page 22? Look at it. MR NOSENGA I said yes it's possible that is mine. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nosenga, it's not a question of whether it could be you? MR NOSENGA Yes I did sign the statement. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS TANZER Your Form 1 application on page 1 of the bundle, in fact 1 until 7, yes, contains certain information which is inaccurate. Can you clarify for this Commission or let's clear it up with this Commission some of the information which is incorrect. Okay, firstly, what date were you born? MR NOSENGA I was born in 1973. MS TANZER Are you aware of the exact date in 1973 you were born? MR NOSENGA No, I do not know. MS TANZER What date were you sentenced for the crimes regarding the attack on Zone 12, Sebokeng and Everton? MR LAX Ms Tanzer could you, just to assist us, you know if you're going to refer to a specific part of this form perhaps just alert us to which page you're referring to and then ask a question in relation to it otherwise we've got to scrabble around trying to find what you're referring to? MS TANZER I'll do that for the Commissioner. ADV SIBANYONI Maybe while you are checking the pages, Mr Nosenga, do you know the month on which you were born? MR NOSENGA No I did mention that I do not know the month on which I was born. MS TANZER I going to detract that question because it actually related to something which is now a ...(indistinct) On page 2 - at page 9(a)(ii) when you were asked to furnish sufficient particulars of the offences associated with a political objective in respect of which amnesty is sought including the date, place and nature thereof and the name or names of any other persons involved, you say 1993. Can you clarify for this Commission what date did the offence take place? MR NOSENGA Are you referring to the Sebokeng incident? MS TANZER Yes. MR NOSENGA It happened in 1992 on the 15th June 1992. MS TANZER That is two days prior to the Boipatong attack? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER Were you already at the hostel on that date? MR NOSENGA Yes I was staying at the hostel. MS TANZER Who instructed you to attack these people? The Sebokeng and Zone 12. Zone 12, Sebokeng and Everton incident. CHAIRPERSON Is that application before us? MS TANZER It is before us in the sense that it's in his application in terms of Form 1. CHAIRPERSON That's not the application we have to concede though? MS TANZER No but it actually overlaps. CHAIRPERSON No, I understand but I just want to make sure you know. MS TANZER Yes, it's not the actual application before us, no. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MS TANZER Okay. Who instructed you to proceed with this attack? MR NOSENGA The Prince Zulu. MS TANZER Who were your fellow attackers? MR NOSENGA Those I remember were Michael Ramakawu, ...(indistinct) Ndlovu, I don't remember the other names, as well as Sipho if I remember well. MS TANZER Was Victor Kezwa in the car with you? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER Did these people that you mention, they were in the car with you on the 15th June, did they take part in the Boipatong attack two days later? MR NOSENGA The person I remember is Michael Ramakawu but I do not remember seeing Victor Kezwa. CHAIRPERSON You did not see Victor Kezwa where? MR NOSENGA She's asking me about the incident when we attacked Boipatong and that is what I was referring to. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR LAX This Sipho you're referring to, do you know what his surname is? MR NOSENGA I do not know his surname, just the first name. MS TANZER When you completed the Form 1 application you described offences that you committed on the 15th June 1992 relating to drive by shootings in Zone 12, Sebokeng and Everton. No mention is made of the Boipatong Massacre in your application. Can you explain to this Commission how it transpired that your activities relating to the Boipatong Massacre became known and why you are applying for amnesty in respect of this massacre? MR NOSENGA The reason I seek amnesty for the Boipatong Massacre is because I was also involved and the people of Boipatong did not know what had happened. That is why I also seek amnesty for the Boipatong Massacre. MS TANZER So you were never convicted of the Boipatong Massacre? MR NOSENGA No I was not, there were also others who were not convicted. MS TANZER Were you ever interrogated or charged for the crimes committed in Boipatong? MR NOSENGA No, I was charged for the offences I committed in Sebokeng, not Boipatong. MS TANZER Now on page 18 of the bundle at paragraph 2 you state that Themba Khosa chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle, is this correct? MR NOSENGA What I said that was he was the chairperson of the Youth Brigade, that is the IFP Youth Brigade. MS TANZER Now you also said that you had - on the same paragraph, that you had not been involved in any other attacks prior to the Boipatong Massacre. Is this correct? MR NOSENGA Please repeat the question? MS TANZER In the affidavit you state that you were not involved in any other attacks prior to the massacre on Boipatong, is that correct? This is in paragraph 2 on page 18. MR LAX Sorry, are you not referring to paragraph 4 on page 19 where you say you were not involved in ...(indistinct) MR NOSENGA I was involved in the Sebokeng matter as well as in the Small Farm incident. MS TANZER Which took place on the 15th? MR NOSENGA Yes that is correct. MS TANZER In paragraph 3 on page 18 of the bundle you said that Mtwana Zulu gave instructions to break into shops and steal food. Was that accurate? MR NOSENGA No, he did not authorise us to break into shops, we did this on our own initiative. MS TANZER What instructions did you receive from Mtwana Zulu? MR LAX Sorry, sorry. Can you just hear the Chairperson is asking you something about where did this occur, what are you referring to? Please refer us to the right section and let the witness answer before you then ask him another question? MS TANZER I said it was on page 18 at paragraph 3 of the bundle. CHAIRPERSON So is the position then the statement which says "we will break into shops and steal food" that's not correct? MS TANZER That's my question, yes. MR NOSENGA Yes I did say that it isn't correct. We did this, the breaking into shops, we did it when we were not staying at KwaMadala Hostel. CHAIRPERSON The statement that Themba Khosa chaired IFP in the Vaal Triangle and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel, is that correct? MR NOSENGA I said he was the chairperson of the IFP Youth Brigade in the Vaal Triangle, he was in charge of the youth. CHAIRPERSON What I've said to you, is it correct or not? In the statement at paragraph 2, the statement that you made, you say "Themba Khosa chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle and he was a frequent visitor at the hostel". Now I want to find out from you is that statement true? MR NOSENGA I did say that Themba Khosa was not the chairperson of the IFP but he was responsible for the youth. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS TANZER Well can you clarify was he a frequent visitor at the hostel, was that correct? MR NOSENGA Yes he was a frequent visitor. MS TANZER Now in paragraph 3 you said Mtwana Zulu gave instructions to break into shops and steal food. Is that correct? MR NOSENGA No, that is not true. MS TANZER What instructions did Mtwana Zulu give you, if any? MR NOSENGA The only order he gave us was to kill the people of Sebokeng, not to break into shops. He said this because those people were IFP enemies, they were involved in the killing of IFP members. MS TANZER Now on page 19 of the affidavit, at paragraph 5 on the second line, you say the meeting was held in a big hall and was attended by a lot of people. Was it a big hall or was it a stadium? MR NOSENGA It's like a sports ground. MS TANZER More like a stadium? MR NOSENGA Yes. MS TANZER Now on paragraph 19 of your affidavit which is page 21 you say you entered eight houses that night, is that correct? MR NOSENGA No, when we went to Boipatong we entered into five houses. Please just explain to me are you referring to the Boipatong or the Sebokeng matter? MS TANZER I'm referring to the Boipatong matter. MR NOSENGA In that regard we entered into five houses not eight. MS TANZER Are you presently in prison and on what charge? MR NOSENGA Yes I am in prison and I have been sentenced with regards to the murders in Sebokeng and Everton. MS TANZER Where were you born? MR NOSENGA I was born in Everton at 671 Newman Road. MS TANZER When did you leave Everton? MR NOSENGA If I remember correctly it was in 1991 after comrades had threatened me about the burning of a certain garage. MS TANZER So when you left Everton, where did you go live? MR NOSENGA I went to live at the Boipatong Hostel. MS TANZER Boipatong or KwaMadala? MR NOSENGA KwaMadala Hostel at the Iscor Hostel. MS TANZER When did you go live in the KwaMadala Hostel, what date, do you remember? Or the year? MR NOSENGA It was in 1991, I do not remember the month. MS TANZER When did you become an IFP member? MR NOSENGA In 1991. MS TANZER As you arrived at the hostel? MR NOSENGA Please repeat the question? MS TANZER As you arrived at the hostel did you become an IFP member? MR NOSENGA Yes, after I had arrived at the hostel. MS TANZER When you arrived at the KwaMadala Hostel, were they suspicious, the leaders suspicious that you were an ANC spy? MR NOSENGA Yes they were suspicious. MS TANZER Were you questioned by any committee about your political affiliations or your reasons for coming to the hostel? MR NOSENGA If I remember correctly, the person who questioned me on my arrival at the hostel were Mtwana Zulu, Damara and Rita Xongo. CHAIRPERSON Mr Zulu, Damara Xongo and who else? MR NOSENGA Damara Xongo, Dakie Xongo as well as Gatchene. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS TANZER Were you ever presented - well you said to the IFP Senior Committee at the hostel either voluntarily or by force. Were you taken by force? According to the evidence of Richard Dlamini you said you were taken by force, is that correct? MR NOSENGA I don't remember that, I do not remember being presented to the Senior Committee of the IFP. MS TANZER Do you remember who assigned you a room at the hostel? MR NOSENGA The person who issued me a room was Prince Zulu. MS TANZER So what are your comments regarding Moses Mthembu's allegations that he assigned you a room after the attack on Boipatong. MR NOSENGA I do not know anything about what he said because I remember very well that it was Prince Zulu who issued me a room. MS TANZER Do you remember your room number? MR NOSENGA I do not remember clearly because I went through several rooms but I think it was Room 3. MS TANZER Were you employed whilst you were at the KwaMadala Hostel? MR NOSENGA No I was not employed, I was just an IFP supporter. We did not work anywhere but we maintained ourselves by stealing cars and breaking into shops. MS TANZER What kind of instructions did you receive from the leaders at the KwaMadala Hostel and who gave you these instructions? MR NOSENGA I did explain that the commander who issued instructions when we attacked - sorry, are you referring to instructions issued when we went on an attack or to a person who commanded the hostel? MS TANZER Well let me rephrase, what was the policy of the leaders of the IFP at the hostel that you were aware of? CHAIRPERSON Ma'am, with due respect, I mean that's a very broad question. Would you just try and narrow it down so that he can understand what is it that you want him to say? MS TANZER I'll do that. Did the leaders of the hostel give instructions to the hostel dwellers or to IFP members to attack ANC comrades in the Vaal Triangle? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER Were you aware of the acrimony between the dwellers of the KwaMadala Hostel and the residents of Boipatong? MR NOSENGA I heard about that, that there were IFP members who had been killed in Boipatong. MS TANZER When did you first become aware of the fact that an attack Boipatong was imminent? MR NOSENGA There was a meeting held on the 14th, that is there was a meeting held two weeks before the 14th meeting. That was where the Boipatong attack was discussed but the order to attack Boipatong was issued on the 14th June. MS TANZER This meeting took ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What happened at the meeting two weeks prior to the 14th? MR NOSENGA That's where Peens arrived as well as Themba Khosa. They came to discuss the Boipatong matter. There was an Induna present at the stadium, they said Boipatong should be attacked. Thereafter, Peens said he will supply the weapons, the firearms. The person who was interpreting that Afrikaans was Gatchene. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR NOSENGA They said we would get our instructions from the Induna on the 14th June. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR NOSENGA If I remember correctly, that is what I remember about that meeting. MS TANZER Do you remember who else spoke at that meeting? MR NOSENGA The meeting of the 14th? MS TANZER The meeting two weeks prior to the attack? MR NOSENGA No, I don't remember. MS TANZER In your affidavit on page 19 at paragraph 6 you state that Themba Khosa spoke at that meeting and that you said a certain insect should be killed, referring to the Boipatong residents that there was a certain Inkatha member had been killed in the location. Do you recall this? MR NOSENGA Yes, that is correct, he did say that the dogs of Boipatong should be killed because at that time IFP members had been killed in Boipatong. MS TANZER You further state that the Induna's agreed with what Themba Khosa had said, is that correct? Do you stand by that? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER In your affidavit you also said, it's still paragraph 7, that Peens and Danie who you said is a member of the SAP said they would supply Rooikop, okay, who is a policeman known to you, with weapons and that he would give them to Themba Khosa who would bring them to the hostel. Do you remember that, do you stand by that? MR NOSENGA Yes I remember Peens speaking at that meeting although I do not remember Danie quite well. I think it was just Peens who was at the meeting not Danie. MS TANZER Are you sure Danie was not at the meeting? You mention him in your affidavit? MR NOSENGA Yes I'm sure. Peens was the person present at the meeting. We only met Danie on our way to attack Boipatong, that's where I saw him. MS TANZER Do you remember who accompanied Peens to the meeting, Mr Peens? MR NOSENGA It was Chaka. MS TANZER Chaka being the policeman? MS TANZER He is a policeman who works in Vanderbijl in the murder and robbery unit. MS TANZER Now at this meeting of the 14th June were you aware that on the next day you were going to attack Sebokeng, Zone 12, Sebokeng and Everton with the other people that you had mentioned? MR NOSENGA No, we were not aware of it, we heard it from Mtwana Zulu. MS TANZER When did you hear it? MR NOSENGA The order was issued on the same day in the evening, I'm not sure of the time. That was when he told me we should go and attack Sebokeng. MS TANZER And Everton that is? MR NOSENGA Yes. MS TANZER Were there lots of meetings held at the hostel? MR NOSENGA Yes there were meetings that were held amongst the hostel dwellers and sometimes Themba Khosa would be present at those meetings. MS TANZER Would the Indunas always preside at these meetings? MR NOSENGA Yes it will always be an Induna, Gatchene, Indwana and others who were from Natal. MS TANZER How did you know when a meeting was taking place? MR NOSENGA There was a siren and that would be sounded, that was how we knew a meeting would be held. MS TANZER Do you speak Sotho? MR NOSENGA No, I do not know of Sesotho, I speak Zulu. MS TANZER Do you understand Afrikaans or English? MR NOSENGA No, I do not understand either language. MS TANZER Do you know personally any dweller of the KwaMadala Hostel who was killed in the Boipatong location? MR NOSENGA No, I remember that there was a person from Natal who was killed although I do not remember the person's name. MS TANZER Were you aware of complaints ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You say you don't speak Sotho? MR NOSENGA Yes I do not, I speak Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Do you understand Sotho? MR NOSENGA No, I can only catch a word here and there. CHAIRPERSON Can you speak it? MR NOSENGA No, I only speak Zulu. MS TANZER Did you have any reservations about yourself participating in the Boipatong Massacre? MR NOSENGA No, I did not. MS TANZER Did you have any personal motive for attacking the people of Boipatong, like revenge or anger? MR NOSENGA No, the reason we attacked because it was something issued by IFP members but I had no personal grudge against the people of Boipatong. MS TANZER So why did you participate in the Boipatong Massacre? MR NOSENGA It was because it was IFP policy that if you are a male or you were above 16 years of age you were required to go on attacks. It was only women and children who were allowed to remain behind. MS TANZER And how old were you in June '92, do you remember? MR NOSENGA I do not know, I don't remember. MS TANZER You mention in your affidavit on page 19 at paragraph 7 that weapons were delivered by Themba Khosa to the hostel and kept in the ceiling. Can you describe the ceiling in which these weapons were kept? MR NOSENGA It was made of corrugated iron and there were holes in which you could put these weapons. MS TANZER So okay, do you know a policeman by the name of Rooikop? MR NOSENGA Yes I know him. MS TANZER Had you seen him at the KwaMadala Hostel prior to the Boipatong attack? MR NOSENGA I started knowing him when we went on the attack at Boipatong, I never saw him at the hostel. I also saw him when I was arrested. MS TANZER Did you ever see him give weapons to Themba Khosa? MR NOSENGA I cannot say that I saw him, I only heard Themba Khosa speaking about it but I did not see him personally. MS TANZER Can you tell us about the meeting that took place on the 14th June 1992 three days before the attack? MR NOSENGA It was held on the 14th, that's where we were told that we were going to attack Boipatong and the police, Peens and the other police would be waiting for us outside the hostel near the BP garage and the weapons were displayed at the stadium by Daki Xongo, that was when we were given Indelesi. CHAIRPERSON We're talking about the meeting of the 15th. MS TANZER Of the 14th. CHAIRPERSON Of the 14th, yes. MR NOSENGA Yes, that's the meeting on the 14th. No, on the 14th we were told that we should attack - I'm sorry I did not get that question properly? MS TANZER Alright, on the meeting of the 14th, who were the Indunas that presided at this meeting, do you remember? MR NOSENGA It was Gatchene and Mtwana Zulu, as well as Daki Xongo and others whom I did not know. MS TANZER And what did they tell you at this meeting? MR NOSENGA They said the day had come that we should prepare ourselves for the attack on the 17th June. That was when we learned that we would meet the police at the BP garage on the 17th. MS TANZER Now ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Where were you supposed to meet the police? MR NOSENGA Outside the hostel towards the BP garage, that is outside the KwaMadala Hostel. CHAIRPERSON Near the BP garage? MR NOSENGA Yes, near the garage. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS TANZER At this meeting were women present on the 14th? MR NOSENGA Yes they were present on the meeting of the 14th. MS TANZER Were you informed at this meeting of the time when the attack would take place? MR NOSENGA No, I just remember the date well. MS TANZER At this meeting what were your instructions, what were you told to do? In Boipatong that is. MR NOSENGA We were just told that we would destroy the entire township. They said that we should destroy everything and everyone because the people of Boipatong supported the ANC, that is what I heard at the meeting. MS TANZER Now was explained or was it said when you should destroy everybody that included women and children? MR NOSENGA Yes, that's what was said, they said everyone, children, old people, pregnant women, everyone should be killed. MS TANZER Were you told at this meeting that you would be supplied with weapons? MR NOSENGA They said we would receive the weapons at the stadium. MS TANZER And when the attack would be finished did they tell you at the meeting what would happen to the weapons, did they tell you what to do with the weapons? MR NOSENGA What I remember was that it was said that the weapons would be returned back to the stadium and that Xongo would collect them. MS TANZER At this meeting of the 14th was any mention, meeting about a rally that would be held in Ulundi after the attack? MR NOSENGA No, I first learned of that after the attack on Boipatong. CHAIRPERSON Ma'am, when it is convenient, would you let us know so that we can adjourn for lunch? MS TANZER Well it's convenient at this point because I'm proceeding to the next stage. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we'll rise and come back at twenty past 2. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR BERGER Chairperson, whilst we're waiting for Ms Tanzer, might I just say that we've had an opportunity to glance briefly at the application that Mr Lowies intends proceeding with tomorrow morning. It would appear that there are a number of people who are being accused of some very serious misconduct, amongst them the African National Congress. In fact it is being alleged that the African National Congress is part of a conspiracy to manufacture evidence and other people as well. We don't act on behalf of the African National Congress but it would appear as though their interests are being effected by this application and we would have thought that they should be given proper notice of this because they might want to make either certain representations or place certain evidence before the Committee? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) the application? MR BERGER Well our attitude is that we are going to have to prepare papers. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Yes Ms Tanzer? MS TANZER (continues) Thank you Mr Chairman. I just want to go back and clarify with you the question of the unsigned affidavit which is on page 8 of the bundle R. Although this affidavit had not been signed by you and you had not - and had not been read to you after it was drawn, is it correct that this affidavit was taken or was made as a result of information that you had given to certain persons who had visited you in a prison for the intention of your application for amnesty? MR LOWIES Mr Chairman, I have to object against this question on behalf of my clients. My submission is that this evidence is suggesting an answer and it is one of the crucial aspects not only in the application but also in the merits of this matter and I would submit that under those circumstances the question would be admissible suggesting an answer. MS TANZER I think that it's a question as crucial in fact to the application of this applicant in that it presupposes that if this affidavit is unacceptable then his whole application is out of time, is not timeous. Now what evidence I'm trying to draw or what information I'm trying to obtain is that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The issues is not, it has never been whether his application is out of time. The objection here is that it's a leading question, that's what it should address you. MS TANZER Alright then I understand that question. I'll rephrase it. Did anybody visit you at a prison in order to obtain a statement from you to support your application for amnesty in respect of any offences that you have committed? ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA (s.u.o.) Yes that is correct, that was Mr Berger and Mr Brian. EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER (cont) Do you remember when they ...(intervention) MR NOSENGA Sorry? I'm saying Mr Berger and Mr Brian visited me at the Maximum Stoffberg Prison. Mr Brian. MS TANZER Can you clarify who is Mr Berger and Mr Brian? MR NOSENGA They came to me and introduced themselves as Advocates and Brian said he is in Johannesburg, based in Johannesburg, and they requested me to give them my statement, my amnesty statement. MS TANZER In making your statement, did you give information relating to the Boipatong Massacre? MR NOSENGA Yes that is correct. MS TANZER Now the affidavit that you did not sign and I read to you at the prison a few days ago, is a lot of that affidavit correct insofar as information you did tell them at the prison? The advocates? CHAIRPERSON Well there's a suggestion that this statement which occurs at pages 8 through 10 is the statement that was given by Mr Nosenga to Advocate Berger and Brian? MS TANZER That is what I'm asking him. CHAIRPERSON Well then ask the question directly. MS TANZER The information on this affidavit, on page 8, 9 and 10, that I read to you in a prison last week, that was not signed by you, is this affidavit - does this contain information that you did tell or give to Advocate Berger and Advocate Brian when they visited you at the prison? MR NOSENGA No, I don't because I did not sign it. MS TANZER But did you tell them any - did you tell them about the Boipatong attack and the Zone 12, Sebokeng, Everton attack? MR NOSENGA Yes, there is something that I told them about the Boipatong incident. MS TANZER And that was part of your application for amnesty? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER Alright. Just on more question, Advocate Brian and Advocate Berger, did they ever come back to the prison and read or indicate that there was a statement that you needed to sign? MR NOSENGA No, they did not. MS TANZER Alright. Okay, let's go back to our questions relating to your stay at the KwaMadala Hostel. When the siren was sounded on the evening of the attack on the 17th June 1992, did you proceed to the stadium knowing that from there you would be attacking Boipatong? MS PRETORIUS Mr Chair, I object to that question, my submission is there is an easy way to ask, just say "when you heard the siren what happened then?" but I mean to suggest that the Boipatong was going to be attacked is very leading? CHAIRPERSON But I thought the evidence of this witness is at least two weeks prior to the 14th they were told that they were going to attack Boipatong. On the 14th they were also told that they were going to attack Boipatong, so the question is really whether on the 17th he went there knowing that Boipatong was going to be attacked? MR NOSENGA Will the question please be repeated? MS TANZER When you heard the siren on the 17th June in the evening, did you go to the stadium knowing that you would be attacking Boipatong that night? MR NOSENGA Yes that is correct. MS TANZER Now did you receive instructions at any of the meetings or on the night in question only to attack and kill SDU members or anyone else to be found at the location of Boipatong? MR NOSENGA No, they did not refer to the SDU's, they actually said that we should attack anybody that we came across, any resident of Boipatong. MS TANZER So no reference was ever made to SDU's, comrades? MR NOSENGA No, I'm hearing that for the first time. MS TANZER Now you stated in your affidavit on paragraph 10 on page 20 that on the day of the attack you saw Peens and a member of the South African Police Force, Chaka, arrive in Peens' private car and hand money over to Victor Kezwa. Could you be certain - sorry? MR NOSENGA Yes that is correct, that was during the day on the 17th when Peens arrived at the hostel, that was just outside the hostel and he gave him some money, I'm not quite sure how much. MS TANZER Do you know the reason why he gave him money? MR NOSENGA No, I do not have any knowledge why Peens gave Gadisi the money. MS TANZER Were you a member of Victor Kezwa's hit squad? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER Was Victor Kezwa present at the hostel on the day of the 17th June 1992, of the attack? MR NOSENGA No, I didn't see him on the day of the attack, I only saw him last during the day. MS TANZER Can you just clarify, did you see him last on that day but not in the evening? When did you see him last? MR NOSENGA I only saw him during the day, not in the evening, I did not see him at the meeting in the evening. MS TANZER Now you said that you have often seen Victor Kezwa meeting with Peens. Did these meetings seem friendly or hostile? MR NOSENGA They used to laugh together, that's what I can say. MS TANZER So it was not that Peens was interrogating Kezwa or anything like that? MR NOSENGA No that is not how they seemed, they seemed like happy in the company of each other. MS TANZER Did you ever discuss the attack on Boipatong with Victor Kezwa? MR NOSENGA No. MS TANZER Where did you receive the weapons and who gave you the weapons on the night of the attack? MR NOSENGA Damara Xongo. I'm sorry Daki Xongo. MS TANZER Where were the weapons? MR NOSENGA These weapons were hidden in the ceiling to which I referred. Near the showers. MS TANZER And at the stadium? MR NOSENGA He placed the firearms there and said that each one of us should come and choose whatever weapon to take. MS TANZER Where did he place the firearms? MR NOSENGA He scattered these weapons on the ground at the stadium. MS TANZER Can you tell us what happened at the stadium that evening before you proceeded to Boipatong? MR NOSENGA There was Indelesi. We were made to drink this Indelesi. After that there is another Indelesi which was sprinkled over our bodies so that we could not get shot. MS TANZER Did you sprinkle the Indelesi on your weapons? MR NOSENGA Yes we had different types of Indelesi. MS TANZER How did you feel after drinking Indelesi? MR NOSENGA It intoxicated me and I felt like I had lost my mind a little bit. MS TANZER Who gave the Indelesi to the people at the stadium? MR NOSENGA If I still remember very well, I think it was Mtwana Zulu was at the stadium that night? MR NOSENGA Yes I saw him at the stadium on the day of the attack, that is at the hostel on the 17th. MS TANZER Did any of the Indunas or any leader speak to you at the stadium or speak to the people at the stadium regarding the impending attack at Boipatong? MR NOSENGA There were many Indunas, people such as Gatchene, they addressed us there and many others some of whose name I do not know and people such as Daki Xongo were present as well. MS TANZER Do you remember what they were saying to you, what was the message to the people? MR NOSENGA No, I cannot remember very well what people like Damara was saying because the Indelesi was I think working at me at the time. CHAIRPERSON Mr Nosenga, you swallow your words, Mr Nosenga, and you make it very difficult for us to understand. MR NOSENGA Okay I understand. MS TANZER Did any women arrive at the stadium that night? MR NOSENGA No, I saw only men because women were ordered to remain behind, they were not wanted at the stadium. MS TANZER Were they ordered to stay behind that night or before that night? MR NOSENGA Because they were actually told before we went to the stadium, they were told that there was going to be a meeting on the 17th in the evening at the stadium and that they were not to come. They were told during the day before we went to the stadium in the evening. They were told about the meeting that very same meeting and that they were not wanted, only men who were wanted. MS TANZER Were you divided into groups and were you grieved about what would happen when you arrived at Boipatong? MR NOSENGA No, we were not in groups. We left the hostel in one group until we crossed the bridge where we came across Casspirs. MS TANZER Now can you just describe in a little more detail for this Commission from when you left the stadium till you reached the Casspirs, the direction you followed? MR NOSENGA We took the main road, when you leave the Iscor from the gate you can join the main road, that's the one that we took and we went towards the BP and there was an open veld that we crossed through down to the bridge where we came across the Casspir. MS TANZER Who would you say was leading the attack on Boipatong? MS TANZER In my group I was being led by Induna Gatchene and other groups were led by different Indunas respectively. MS TANZER So were you divided into groups or did you just fall into groups? MR NOSENGA There were others who were in Casspirs and others were walking on foot and we went to the entrance of the township where we decided to take different directions for cover. MS TANZER My question is, was it a planned action, was it planned into which groups you would be or did you just fall into groups informally? MR NOSENGA No, I only started to know once we were with Peens, that's when I was informed as to who was going to be my Induna and into which group I will belong. MS TANZER And who informed you of this? MR NOSENGA It was Gatchene. MS TANZER How many Casspirs were waiting for you in the field? MR NOSENGA There were four of them. MS TANZER Now did you enter into a Casspir? MR NOSENGA Yes. MS TANZER Who was in the Casspir with you? MR NOSENGA I saw Peens, Chaka, Rooikop and one other white male who was driving, one other white person who was driving the Casspir. MS TANZER Did you know this driver? MR NOSENGA No, I was seeing that person for the first time. CHAIRPERSON This other person, was he the driver? You've mentioned Peens, Chaka, Rooikop? MR NOSENGA She was asking me as to who was driving the Casspir. CHAIRPERSON Okay, well the person who you got into the Casspir with were Peens, Chaka, Rooikop? MR NOSENGA Yes, that's what I said and other police people whom I did not know. MR NOSENGA How many of the policemen? MR NOSENGA I think there could have been six or five, I'm not quite sure. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS TANZER How did you know they were policemen? MR NOSENGA I saw Rooikop, the presence suggested to me that these people are police, the presence of Chaka as well and the others that I knew. MS TANZER And amongst the hostel dwellers, do you remember who were with you in the Casspir that night? MR NOSENGA Will you please repeat the question? MS TANZER Do you remember who from the hostel, the KwaMadala Hostel were with you in the Casspir that night? MR NOSENGA I still remember Gatchene, he was in my group and Sipho, Dondo and Stikenau, Lucky. Those are the ones that I still remember very well. MS TANZER Do you remember if Themba Kubeka was in the Casspir? MR NOSENGA Yes I remember he was present. MS TANZER Was a person known as Rubin the Casspir with you? MR NOSENGA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Ma'am, you know, he has told us who was and who he remembers. You are now leading him. MS TANZER Alright, I'll retract that, I was just referring to the affidavit that he had signed previously, but I'll retract that. MS TANZER Do you know any other people that were in a Casspir with you that night? MR NOSENGA There were many of us that evening but I can only remember ones with whom I was travelling in the Casspir when we went to attack. MS TANZER Can you describe the scene to the Commission as you arrived at Boipatong? MR NOSENGA We got off the Casspirs and took cover. There is one first house that is painted white I think and we started breaking down windows. CHAIRPERSON Speak up and slow, we're making notes here and there's someone who is also interpreting. MR NOSENGA Okay. CHAIRPERSON Yes, start again. MR SIBANYONI Through you Mr Chairperson, maybe Mr Nosenga, if you cannot tough the microphone, once it's on it will stay on, if you touch it then do this, there is a lot of sound coming in. MR NOSENGA I am saying we got off the Casspirs and we went into this first house painted white, broke windows and doors. I think we found a male and a female there. These two people were killed, were shot dead. MS TANZER Can you give any ...(intervention) MR LAX Listen, the man speaks a hell of a lot, just give us a little bit of a chance to make decent notes? Carry on. MS TANZER Can you describe any physical features of that road that you entered and that could help identify which street it was? MR NOSENGA I am not quite familiar with the street, there is this one main road that proceeds towards Boipatong and we took the one road or street that ultimately led us to the first house. MS TANZER Did you shoot anybody in that first house? MR NOSENGA Yes even though I don't know the person's identity. MS TANZER What happened after you left this first house? MR NOSENGA We went into the second house, we found some children and adults, they too were shot and I also fired shots in that house. MS TANZER What kind of weapon were you using that night? MR NOSENGA An AK47. MS TANZER Did you yourself shoot any of these people, the occupants of this house? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER How many people were with you in the second house? MR NOSENGA I think there were six if not five. Dondo and Rubin Themba included. MS TANZER What happened after that? CHAIRPERSON Mr Nosenga, would you please stop looking at the notes of your attorney. Look up when you answer the question because sometimes your last word we don't hear them because you speak very softly. Yes, yes? MR NOSENGA I am saying there were five of us, that is the second house, my legal representative is referring to the second house. MS TANZER What happened after you left the second house? MR NOSENGA We went into the third house in which we also found people and there was another group from among our group which was shooting from outside and we went inside and fired shots as well. There could have been three of these people inside. MS TANZER And then what happened after that? MR NOSENGA We went into the fourth house then we also found people in this fourth house, some of them were running away, jumping the fence then we went into the house and started shooting the people that we found inside. MS TANZER And then, go on? MR NOSENGA And we went to the last house which was the fifth house and we also found people in this fifth house. The door and windows were broken and started shooting. We looked for people under the bed and wardrobes. MS TANZER Do you remember shooting anyone that night or were you shooting randomly around each house? MR NOSENGA No, I cannot say I could have spotted anyone individual because I was also under the influence of the Indelesi so that I also do not know the identity of these people that I shot. MS TANZER Did you notice any of your fellow attackers breaking windows and damaging houses? MR NOSENGA The one person that I saw was Stikenau because another group was breaking windows and doors on the other side. I could not have seen those. MS TANZER Why did you stop after the fifth house? MR NOSENGA I had two magazines, we continued to Slovo Park and another group continued attacking on the same street and I finished my job at the shacks. MS TANZER Did you see anybody rape a woman that night? MR NOSENGA No, I only heard that Stikenau had raped someone but I'm not sure about that. MS TANZER Did you ask him if he had raped a woman MR NOSENGA No, I did not question him about it, he just mentioned it. MR LAX Sorry, just repeat that last answer? I didn't catch the interpretation very well, I'm sorry. INTERPRETER He said that he did not question him about it, the person Stikenau had volunteered information. MS TANZER Had you ever been to Boipatong prior to this night in question? MR NOSENGA Yes I had been to Boipatong before I became a member of the IFP. MS TANZER On page 21 of the bundle at paragraph 20 you mention that Peens also shot people, that he shot them from the Casspir. Can you elaborate to this Commission on what you saw Peens doing that night? MR NOSENGA The Casspir was driving slowly and Peens would get off the Casspir and shoot at the people on the street. He would not go into the houses. MS TANZER Did you see what kind of weapon Peens was using? MR NOSENGA I just saw that it was a small gun, I'm not sure what type it was. MS TANZER Tell this Commission, after you left the Boipatong location, where did you proceed?? MR NOSENGA Do you mean on our way back or during the attack? MS TANZER During the attack. MR NOSENGA We took the taxi routes towards the Boipatong Hostel as if we were going towards ...(indistinct)ville, there were a lot of shacks around that area and that's where we launched another attack. MS TANZER Did you pass a hostel on the way? MR NOSENGA Yes there was a hostel near a lot of trees and there were also shacks nearby and our last attack was launched on a Xhosa Hostel, that was after we'd been to Slovo Park. MS TANZER Did you shoot anybody in the hostel? MR NOSENGA No, I do not remember, I only fired at Slovo Park. MS TANZER Do you remember shooting anybody specifically at Slovo Park or were you shooting randomly? MR NOSENGA I cannot identify the people I shot at Slovo Park but I just saw people falling as we were moving around the shacks. MS TANZER What did you steal that night from the houses that you were attacking? MR NOSENGA If I remember correctly, it was a video machine and a T.V. and cash, we stole this from the houses, not from the shacks. MS TANZER What did you do with the stolen items while you were at Boipatong? MR NOSENGA They were put into the Casspir because there were many items stolen from the houses including beds and duvet sets. MS TANZER How did you know that you were supposed to put the loot, the stolen loot into the Casspirs? MR NOSENGA I was informed by Gatchene that he had spoken to the police who had agreed that the loot should be put in the Casspir. That was information that I received from Gatchene. MS TANZER Did he tell you that the loot would be returned to you when you got to the hostel, when you returned back to the hostel? MR NOSENGA Please repeat the question? MR LOWIES Sorry Chairperson, I have to object against the question. MS TANZER I'll withdraw the question. MS TANZER Did you see any military vehicles during the attack or on your way back to the hostel? MR NOSENGA No, I did not see military vehicles. MS TANZER How did you get back to the hostel? MR NOSENGA We walked on foot and the Casspirs were carrying the loot and the weapons back to the hostel but the rest of us walked on foot. MS TANZER Can you describe the route that you took back to the KwaMadala Hostel, can you remember? MR NOSENGA When we came back from the shacks, we went into the main street in Boipatong where there were shops. We passed a group of factories along the way and we proceeded towards the street near the BP garage. I'm not sure of the name of the street. MS TANZER Was this the same direction that you had taken to Boipatong in the beginning before the attack? MR NOSENGA No, it was not the same route, we took a different route. It was when we came back from the township we took a different route, we did not go the same way as we had done before. MS TANZER What were your instructions regarding the weapons you had used during the attack? MR NOSENGA Weapons such as AK47's, pump guns, spears and pangas. CHAIRPERSON What instructions had you been given in regard to these weapons that you had used? MR NOSENGA On our way back or during the attack? We were ordered to return the guns to the stadium. MS TANZER What were your instructions regarding the stolen loot that you had taken from the attack on Boipatong? MR NOSENGA Dakie Xongo, they discussed that the loot should be burned because it would be evidence of the attack on Boipatong. MS TANZER On the night of the attack was there any celebration after you had returned? MR NOSENGA Yes there was, we were singing and when we arrived back at the stadium we received another Indelezi to drink so that we would be cleansed. MS TANZER Did Themba Khosa and Mtwana Zulu take part in the attack? MR LOWIES No, Mr Chairman, I must object again, I submit that that would also be suggesting an answer. MS TANZER I'll rephrase the question. Did any of the known leaders take part in the attack, did you see any of the known leaders of the KwaMadala Hostel or the IFP during that night of the attack in Boipatong, did you see them at Boipatong? MR NOSENGA The only people that I saw were the Indunas. The leaders, I saw the leaders at the stadium. MS TANZER Can you describe to this Commission what happened during the days after the attack? MR NOSENGA Please repeat the question? MS TANZER Can you describe what happened on the day and days after the attack. What took place at the KwaMadala Hostel after the attack on Boipatong and the days afterwards? MR NOSENGA Themba Khosa arrived at the hostel after the attack and he had come there to collect all the guns that had been used in the attack. MS TANZER Did he tell you anything else? MR NOSENGA No, he had a meeting with the Indunas, he didn't speak to us directly, so we were informed by the Indunas that he had come to collect the guns. MS TANZER Was there a meeting or any meeting that took place after the attack, regarding the attack at the KwaMadala Hostel? MR NOSENGA I don't remember well because I just remember Themba Khosa arriving to have a meeting with the Indunas with regards to the weapons that were used in Boipatong. MS TANZER What did you do with your weapon? MR NOSENGA I returned it to the stadium on the night of the 17th after the attack. MS TANZER Did you put it on the floor or where did you put your weapon? MR NOSENGA There was an open ground where all weapons were placed and Dakie Xongo is the person who removed them. MS TANZER Did you see Peens, Chaka, Rooikop or any other member of the South African Police Force at the KwaMadala Hostel during the weeks after the attack on Boipatong? MR NOSENGA No, I last saw them on the day of the attack on Boipatong, I never saw them at the hostel again. MS TANZER Did you see Victor Kezwa on the days after the attack at the hostel. Did you ever see him again? MR NOSENGA As I said before, I last saw Victor Kezwa during the day of the attack, I did not see him after the attack was launched. MS TANZER In your affidavit, on page 22 at paragraph 25, you stated that Themba Khosa came to collect the weapons? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER You mention "we were told that other policemen, not the policemen from Vereeniging, would come and search for weapons."? MR NOSENGA That is correct because the IFP worked closely with the police from Vereeniging so they would not have been able to come and search the place. MS TANZER You also mention that Themba Khosa was very happy and praised the people at a rally that was held at the hostel the same day? MR NOSENGA Please repeat that? MS TANZER You mention that, you stated under oath that Khosa was very happy and praised the people at a rally that was held at the hostel the same day? MR NOSENGA I don't remember that well. What I remember about the rally is the one that was held in Natal at Ulundi, that was a rally at which Themba Khosa was excited. CHAIRPERSON But what do you say about this statement? MR NOSENGA I said Themba Khosa arrived after the attack at Boipatong and he spoke to the Indunas. CHAIRPERSON So there was no rally at the hostel? MR NOSENGA No, we were informed by the Indunas after they had held a meeting with Themba Khosa. CHAIRPERSON Well, is the position that Themba Khosa did not meet with the hostel residents? MR NOSENGA He had a meeting with the Indunas and with the authorities. Those other people that he spoke to, he did not speak to us. I only got the information from Gatchene. CHAIRPERSON Did Gatchene report to you that Khosa was very happy and had praised the people? MR NOSENGA Yes, a meeting was held after Themba Khosa had left and we were informed about the purpose of his visit. CHAIRPERSON So there was a meeting at which you received a report from Isinduna as to what Khosa had said to them in connection with the attack? MR NOSENGA Themba Khosa had said that the police were going to come and search the hostel and therefore he wanted to collect all weapons that had been used in Boipatong so that they be burned. CHAIRPERSON You see because what you're saying, what says in your statement, paragraph 5, Khosa was very happy and praised the people at a rally that was held at the hostel the same day but as I understand your evidence, Khosa did not meet with you, he only spoke with Isinduna? MR NOSENGA I think ...(intervention). CHAIRPERSON Forget about what you said to your attorney, I just want to tell you what is it you are saying to us now. Okay, so you received a report back from Gatchede, his Induna, as to what Khosa had said to them? MR NOSENGA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS TANZER Can you tell the Commission about the rally in Ulundi? MR NOSENGA I do not remember the month but it was after the attack on Boipatong but there was a rally in Ulundi, an IFP rally and IFP leaders such as Buthelezi and Felgate addressed that rally. I travelled with Indwana in an E20, which was driven by Daki Xongo. We were with other Isinduna, some of whom I did not know. MS TANZER What happened at the rally? MR NOSENGA There were speeches made. The one person who spoke was Themba Khosa because he was a leader from the Vaal Triangle. He mentioned the Boipatong Massacre. Dr Buthelezi, Mangosuto Buthelezi was pleased about what had happened because he made a speech after Themba Khosa had spoken and he spoke about the Boipatong Massacre and said that he was happy about it. MS TANZER Were you ever on the same stage as Chief Mangosuto Buthelezi where you were shown up as an ANC spy? MR NOSENGA Can you please repeat that question? MS TANZER Were you ever on the same stage at the rally as Chief Mangosuto Buthelezi where you were shown up as an ANC spy? MR NOSENGA No, that is not true. There was no way that an ANC person would be found in KwaMadala Hostel. I do not think the ANC would support such a statement. MS TANZER What are your comments regarding your other applicants' allegations that you only joined the KwaMadala Hostel after June 17th 1992, that you were not at the hostel prior to the attack on Boipatong? MR NOSENGA I do not know what they are talking about, that is their own fabrication. I do not know about that. The people from Boipatong know very well as to when I left Sebokeng. Even now I cannot enter the township of Boipatong or Sebokeng. I would like to challenge them on that matter because I do not know what they are talking about. MS TANZER What are your comments regarding the allegations that you were planted in the hostel by the ANC as a spy to blow up the hostel? MR NOSENGA They do not know what they are talking about, they must be confused because they've made statements because what they have done is they are trying to shield the IFP leadership. I would like somebody to come here, come forward and debate this matter with me. If I was an ANC spy I should have been killed in the hostel. As I mentioned before when I arrived they were suspicious of my presence but I explained everything to them. I do not know what they are referring to. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that shortly upon your arrival they did not trust you? MR NOSENGA That is correct, they would not trust anyone who arrived at the hostel so they also did not trust me at first but eventually, as time went on, they learned to trust me. CHAIRPERSON Did you have to do anything for them to trust you?? MR NOSENGA Yes because I managed to go back to my own township to kill people of the township, that is how they began to trust me. CHAIRPERSON And when was that attack, was that in 1992? MR NOSENGA Yes. CHAIRPERSON The attack on Sebokeng? MR NOSENGA Yes in 1992. CHAIRPERSON 15th of? MR NOSENGA 15th of June. CHAIRPERSON And you had been at the hostel since 1991? MR NOSENGA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now before - you don't remember the month when you arrived at the hostel? MR NOSENGA No I don't. CHAIRPERSON Prior to the attack on Sebokeng, did you do any other thing which ensured that you had the confidence of the hostel dwellers? MR NOSENGA Yes because as an IFP member you have to wear the IFP tee-shirt publicly in town and that is how they will recognise you or identify you as an IFP member but for them to trust me, I proved myself by going back to Everton and shooting, killing people in that township. MS TANZER Why did you come forward regarding the attack on Boipatong if you were never charged or convicted in respect of this attack? CHAIRPERSON I thought that he has already told us that there were two reasons. The first one was that he took part in the attack. The second one was that the other applicants were not telling the truth. MS TANZER Thank you, is that correct what was just put to you? MR NOSENGA Yes I did say that I spoke about the Boipatong incident because we were not arrested or should I say not all of us were arrested and I decided to speak out because these people are not telling the truth. There are many people who died with the police involved. Many people from Boipatong who fled can testify to this effect. MS TANZER Now do you confirm the political objectives of the attack on Boipatong? MR NOSENGA That is correct. MS TANZER And to your mind, what were the political objectives of this attack? MR NOSENGA I did not go to Boipatong out of my volition, it was the IFP that was pushing us into committing the crime. It is not something that I did on my own, we were actually being forced or pushed by the IFP to do this, that is why I am saying it is politically motivated. MS TANZER What are your comments regarding the other applicants who state that there were no police or military assistance during the Boipatong attack? MR NOSENGA We should not play tennis at this Commission, many people died, old women, children and to now say that the police were not involved during the attack in June 1992 is not understandable by myself. We are not playing marbles here like children. MS TANZER I've no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) what order are we going to follow? Mr Lowies will start, right? Cross-examining, followed by Adv Pretorius and then Mr Strydom. You've not been implicated, unless you want him to say that they were there? MR LOWIES No Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, okay. Okay then we'll cross over there, we'll start with Mr Berger, Malindi - no I beg your pardon. Who is the last? Okay, Cambanis and then of course subject to the rule that we don't cover the same grounds. Okay, 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. I will look at your application this evening and then we will hear what Mr Berger and his colleagues have to say after concerning the application and then we will then indicate when we're going to hear the application. MR STRYDOM Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON It concerns me that on more than one occasion we've had to start late after lunch because the legal representatives did not have their lunch in time. If there is a problem shall we deal with that, I mean I don't know what is the problem but it does concern me because we've heard on more than one occasion when there is some delay in - and it concerns me because it interferes with the progress of the hearing. Mr Mapoma, would you look into this matter so that you just make sure that proper arrangements are made for the other legal practitioners ...(intervention) MS PRETORIUS Mr Chairman, pardon, I don't want to interrupt but Mr Klute says he will see to it that he orders our lunch a quarter of an hour before we stop if we just know what time we're going to stop for lunch. That may solve the problem. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS