amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-17 VANDERBIJLPARK 11 WITNESS : MIRIAM MOLETE BOIPATONG MASSACRE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53385&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_vbp_990517vb.htm CHAIRPERSON Ms Molete, may I remind you you're still under oath? MIRIAM MOLETE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Strydom. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, my attorney is still in the process of finalising that bundle which was referred to. It will be ready soon but I thought that I cannot delay the proceedings any further. Statements which I'm going to use to cross-examine this witness has been handed to all the parties on Friday so I will continue with my cross-examination and in due course that bundle will be ready. So the statements I'm referring to are statements made by this witness, Miriam Molete and a statement made by Florence Molete. I was informed the party has been handed these documents. My learned friend now shakes his head so he hasn't got a copy. I'll try to get a copy to hand over to him. MR LAX Mr Strydom, we don't have Florence Molete's statement. We've only got a hand-written one by Miriam and a typed one by Miriam. MR STRYDOM Oh, thank you Mr Lax, what I will do is I won't start with Florence until the bundle is available. CHAIRPERSON Now what is the situation, is the situation that this statement by this witness will form part of the bundle that's been prepared? MR STRYDOM Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Oh, okay very well. MR BERGER Chairperson, for the record we don't have any statements, either of Florence Molete or Miriam Molete. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I will start with my cross-examination without reference to these statements and when they become ready I will deal with the statements. Thanks Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes you may proceed. MR STRYDOM Thank you. Ms Molete just as an introduction I want to inform you that I'm not going to cross-examine you about the tragedy that happened at the house. Apart from certain issues you stated that the person who attacked you and Mita was a White person, so I'll ask you certain questions in that regard. You also said that you saw two people in camouflage uniforms. I will ask you certain questions about that and then you stated that you saw a Koyoco driving towards the factories. I'll ask you about that. Now firstly, you stated that your husband was shot. I want to put to you and maybe you can comment on this statement that according to the post-mortem report and other documentation in my possession, your husband died as a result of stab wounds. Are you prepared to accept that? MS M MOLETE No I don't accept that. MR STRYDOM Why do you say your husband was shot? MS M MOLETE I said that my husband was hacked with a panga while he was in the house and then ultimately he was shot from behind on the upper shoulder. MR STRYDOM Were you there when he was shot or not? MS M MOLETE No, I wasn't present. MR LAX Sorry, Mr Strydom, are you saying that, let me just clarify this, are you saying her husband wasn't shot at all or that he didn't die as a result of the gunshot because there's two quite different propositions. MR STRYDOM What I'm putting is according to the post-mortem report no bullet wounds were marked. MR LAX That's different. MR STRYDOM Or was found. What I want to know from the witness on what basis do you say that your husband was inter alia shot? MS M MOLETE The reason why I say that is because my brothers and sisters were left behind and then after that the corpses were examined. The people refused, the police refused people to see the corpses and they removed the bullet and when I arrived at the hospital I was told that my husband died as a result of gunshots. He had three gun wounds that is why I say he died as result of gun wounds. MR STRYDOM You just mentioned that the bullets were removed or some reference to that. Can you just explain what do you say about that? MS M MOLETE That is what I was told by my brothers because they were there. When they arrived at the hospital they told me that. MR STRYDOM So you've got no personal knowledge about the fact that your husband was shot? MS M MOLETE Mr Strydom, I said when I arrived at the hospital I asked my brothers whether my husband is dead. They told me about the problems that they had and they said it to me my husband had died as a result of three bullet wounds. CHAIRPERSON We understand what you were told at the hospital. What counsel wants to find out is, of your own personal knowledge do you know whether you husband was shot? MS M MOLETE That is what they told me but the only thing that I saw was that he was hurt while I was with him in the house. I only heard about the shots the following day when they told me that my husband was shot three times. MR STRYDOM I want you to look at Exhibit J, that is a plan of Boipatong including Slovo Park. I want you to indicate approximately where 17 Slovo Park is. Do you see the township itself and on the right hand side of Exhibit J you see drawings of which purport to be houses or shacks? MR BERGER Can I assist? MR STRYDOM Yes please. Do you understand the map? CHAIRPERSON Any progress. MR BERGER The witness is indicating something about Slovo Park near the corner of Bapedi Street. MS M MOLETE Yes, that is at the corner of Bapedi from the shops, it is just near the corner. MR STRYDOM Yes, if one will take the route from the shops going towards Slovo Park you get to the houses there at Slovo Park, is that correct? MS M MOLETE Yes that is correct. MR STRYDOM Now number 17, the place where you were that night. In relation to the corner of Bakwena and Bapedi Street, can you just indicate where that position is, or that house? MS M MOLETE Bakwena Street is not indicated here, I can't see it. MR STRYDOM The street that runs between the Boipatong Township and Slovo Park, do you see that? That's the last street. MS M MOLETE Unfortunately it's not a good photostat copy but you can see Bakwena is the last street. MS M MOLETE I cannot see clearly from this map, it's dark. MR STRYDOM But just accept the last street is Bakwena Street and obviously then it intersects with Bapedi Street, it forms a T-Junction. What I want to know ...(intervention) MS M MOLETE Yes I can see it now. MR STRYDOM From that T-Junction between Bapedi and Bakwena Street, can you indicate from that position where your or house 17 more or less is or was? MS M MOLETE Yes I do. MR BERGER Ms Molete is indicating but I don't know if it's helpful because I don't know on your map but ours 17 is indicated. Is it indicated on yours as well? MR STRYDOM No, maybe just give me your indication. MR BERGER It's near the corner of Bapedi and Bakwena and it's - there's a row of houses, can you see that? MR STRYDOM Yes? MR BERGER And then just below it there's one, two, three, four? MR STRYDOM Yes? CHAIRPERSON Is there a 15 on your map? Mr Berger? MR BERGER Yes there is a 15, the one that I thought was indicated as 17 is actually 97. CHAIRPERSON Yes, alright. MR BERGER And then there's a 73 I think CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's right here. MR BERGER I just want a broad indication where the witnesses house or where she was, not the exact spots. MR BERGER And Ms Molete has also indicated 15 as to where her husband was shot or was killed. MR STRYDOM How far from that house where your husband was killed was the shack you were in that night? Was it close by? MS M MOLETE They were neighbours. CHAIRPERSON So 15 and 17 were neighbours? Alright. MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So house number 17 is in the vicinity of the corner of Bapedi and Bafokeng but would be more along Bakwena Street which is where number 15 is indicated. MS M MOLETE That is correct, it's at the corner of Bakwena and Bapedi Street. MR BERGER Chairperson, not Bafokeng, Bafokeng is right at the top of the township, just below. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon, it's Bakwena I'm referring to. MR BERGER Bakwena and Bapedi. CHAIRPERSON But it would be more ...(intervention) MR BERGER To the north of that corner? CHAIRPERSON Yes, along Bakwena just where number 15 is indicated. Thank you. MR STRYDOM Now in your evidence in chief you made reference to Apollo lights. From that position of that house, where will you find the closest Apollo light? MS M MOLETE The nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Majola Street. MR STRYDOM The corner of Majola and which street? MS M MOLETE It's at the corner of Majola and the street next to Slovo. MR STRYDOM That's Bakwena Street? MS M MOLETE Yes that is correct, it's Bakwena. MR STRYDOM I want to put to you that that's not correct. The two closest Apollo lights you will find firstly on the corner of Bakwena and Mashweshwe Street, that's towards the right hand corner of the map in front of you, Exhibit J so it's two streets lower than Majola. Corner Mashweshwe and Bakwena. MR BERGER If you can just let me find Mashweshwe I'll indicate it. MR STRYDOM That's the last street. CHAIRPERSON I think Mashweshwe is the one that runs parallel Baralong. MS M MOLETE Yes it's at Mashweshwe Street, next to the tuck shop, it's just facing Florence's kitchen. MR STRYDOM And the other Apollo lighting, that vicinity or let me put it, the other one is not too far away, is the Apollo light on the corner of Bapedi and Morkari Avenue. Do you know if there's an Apollo light as well? MS M MOLETE Yes I know. MR STRYDOM Yes, do you have comments? MS M MOLETE No. MR BERGER Ms Molete wants to explain to me, can you ask her to explain to everyone what's she's indicating about the Apollo lights? MR STRYDOM Yes, let me put it this way, I pointed to you according to my information you will find the two Apollo lights just to make it clear on the corner of Bapedi and Morkari Avenue and on the corner of Bakwena and Mashweshwe Avenue, do you agree with that or don't you agree? Can you explain? MS M MOLETE It is not in Mashweshwe but it's in Makwena, just next to the tuck shop. MR BERGER No, she said Majola. The interpreter translated it as Makwena but the witness said Majola. MS M MOLETE It is between Baralong and Majola on the side of Slovo Park. MR STRYDOM You've mentioned the tuck shop, maybe you must indicate where is that tuck shop? CHAIRPERSON Okay, as far as the witness is concerned, the nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Majola and Bakwena is that right? MS M MOLETE No, Baralong Street. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR BERGER Chairperson, Baralong and Majola don't intersect, they run parallel to one another. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR BERGER So what the witness is indicating is that the Apollo light is on the side of Slovo Park, I would assume that by that she means in Bakwena between Baralong and Majola. CHAIRPERSON Where's Majola? MR BERGER Majola is one below Bapedi and Baralong is one below Majola so if one follows the two of them towards Slovo Park one hits Bakwena. CHAIRPERSON Bakwena. MR BERGER And she says that the nearest Apollo light is between Baralong and Majola. Is that right? Somewhere here? CHAIRPERSON So it is not at the corner of Majola and Bakwena? Okay. MS M MOLETE It is not in Bakwena because Bakwena runs from Bapedi. MR BERGER Let's just get clarity here? CHAIRPERSON Look, well I'm a bit lost here. Let me just go through this process once again. What I have recorded here which was interpreted was the nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Majola and Bakwena Streets? MS M MOLETE This street runs from Bapedi. When you walk with Bapedi from the shop and then you turn left, but when you turn on the right hand there is an Apollo which is between Majola and Baralong and there is a tuck shop and that Apollo light is just behind that tuck shop. ADV SIGODI Sorry, how far is this light from Slovo Park? MS M MOLETE The people who live in Slovo Park buy from that tuckshop. You just cross the main road. It is not a distance from the tuck shop. That street that runs from Bapedi to Baralong is known as Bakwena and then on the other side there is no street, you only see the houses on the Slovo Park side. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR STRYDOM Do you know where the beer hall is? MS M MOLETE Yes there was an old barber which is no longer there, I know that one. MR STRYDOM And that was on the corner of Mashweshwe and Bakwena Street, is that correct? MS M MOLETE It is on the same street as Bakwena but there is no street from Bapedi towards that bar. MR STRYDOM You see I want to inform you and Chairperson, I'm going to refer to Exhibit EE on page 19 of the report about the elimination situation in Boipatong. It is stated in this report that there are seven Apollo lights distributed around the Northern Township and then they are tabled in this report and the fourth - page 19 Chairperson, it's marked on the bottom corner. The fourth Apollo light, there seems no argument about that is situated at corner Bapedi Street and Morkari Avenue, it seems to be opposite house 208 Morkari, I think it should read. Then the other Apollo light which I referred you to is number 7, the reference there is Beer Hall, corner Mashweshwe and Bakwena Streets. Now what I want to put to you, according to this report which was compiled shortly after the Boipatong incident, there is no Apollo light where you indicated to be in Bakwena between Majola and Baralong Streets so if we accept for a moment that this report is correct, I'm putting it to you that you are wrong? MR BERGER The witness said that it's not in Bakwena, she's indicated that it's near Slovo Park behind the tuck shop and to get to the tuck shop you just cross the road and she said it's between Baralong and Majola. MR STRYDOM No, you don't understand, so it's just more to Slovo Park than to Bakwena Street. MR BERGER No, I think it's just slightly in towards Boipatong, just across which what would be Bakwena. MR LAX Just to put it in terms of direction, it's marginally north of where this report seems to indicate it is, perhaps a block or a half a block north, that's what she's indicating. MR STRYDOM Well, what I'm putting to you is according to the report there is no Apollo light where you indicated it to be, that's what I'm putting to you? MS M MOLETE I do not agree with that report because I know there is an Apollo light there. MR STRYDOM Tell me, the Apollo light you are referring to now, was it also there on the night of the attack? MS M MOLETE Yes it was there and it was late. CHAIRPERSON Which is this Apollo light that's in this street here? MR STRYDOM I think the one in issue ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON That's she's referring to. MR STRYDOM I've put to her that there's an Apollo light on the - very close to the corner of Bakwena and Mashweshwe. CHAIRPERSON Right? MR STRYDOM And she says no, it's higher up in a Northern direction between Majola and Baralong Streets. CHAIRPERSON Well, as I understand the evidence you put it to her that - I think you said the nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Mashweshwe and Bafokeng Street and the answer is yes. MR STRYDOM No, no in Bakwena Street and not Bafokeng, it was Bakwena Street. CHAIRPERSON Yes Bakwena Street, yes and the answer was yes. MR STRYDOM Yes that is initially the answer and then I asked her to elaborate and then she changed the position and she said no, the Apollo light, the closest Apollo light is between Majola and Baralong Street. CHAIRPERSON I suppose the question really has been phrased somewhat differently because as I understand it, the question was the next nearest I think it was you canvassed with us now, let's clear this up. MR BERGER Chairperson, sorry, when the yes was Molete was listening to Mr Strydom when he was positioning the lights, so she was saying yes. CHAIRPERSON Well she is not saying that she agrees when it was put to her that the nearest Apollo light is at the corner of Mashweshwe and Makwena. MR BERGER No, she's not agreeing to that. CHAIRPERSON Well ma'am, would you please tell us what Apollo lights you know and where they are in relation to Slovo Park? MS M MOLETE There is an Apollo light at the corner of Morkari and the other one is between Majola Street and Baralong and that's all that I know. CHAIRPERSON That's at the - I think you mentioned the corner of Morkari and what streets? MS M MOLETE It's between Morkari and Bapedi, that is the intersection of Morkari and Bapedi. MR STRYDOM Now I'm not going to take this point further off, I'm just going to put to you that where you say the Apollo light is situated which would be the closest to you is now between Majola and Baralong Street is not the correct position because if my information is correct that Apollo light is lower down in a southern direction towards the corner of Bakwena and Mashweshwe Street? MS M MOLETE You said I should explain the nearest Apollo. That one you're talking about is in Mashweshwe and it's not near Slovo Park. MR STRYDOM According to you is there another Apollo light at the corner of Mashweshwe and Bakwena Streets close to the old beer hall? MS M MOLETE It is in Mashweshwe Street, it is not on Slovo Park side. MR STRYDOM At approximately 10 o'clock that night was there still smoke and fog hanging over Boipatong? MS M MOLETE No. MR STRYDOM You testified that your husband and Mita went to bed already, Florence also got herself ready to go to bed and you still wanted to bath. What source of light did you still have on, if any, in the house? MS M MOLETE We were sitting around the fire and we used a paraffin lamp and in the bedrooms we used the candle light. MR STRYDOM Now the place where you were when the attacker came into the house, what was the situation about the light in that room? MS M MOLETE I was not sitting I was still in the bath then. MR STRYDOM Yes but in the place you were in the bath then, what did you have a candle there or a paraffin lamp or any light? MS M MOLETE It was candlelight. MR STRYDOM When you were attacked were you still in that same room or bathroom with the candlelight? MS M MOLETE When they hit at the door I went out of the bath and put on some clothes and went out of that room. MR STRYDOM Yes. Did you go to the room which will take you - with the door that will take you outside? The front room? MS M MOLETE They were already inside then. After they had taken my husband I tried to protect Mita. His head was facing the wardrobe and these people were busy smashing the wardrobe so I was trying to protect Mita. MR STRYDOM What I want to establish is this, the light in the room that you were when you were attacked? CHAIRPERSON When you left the bathroom where did you go to? MS M MOLETE I was trying to take Mita to another room then I met these people who were attacking. CHAIRPERSON Where was this? MS M MOLETE It was just next to the door leading to the kitchen. CHAIRPERSON So from the bathroom did you go to the kitchen? MS M MOLETE It is inside the shack, there are only two and a half rooms. I was from a bedroom and then from the bedroom there is a door leading to the kitchen and there is another door that is leading to the small room so I was preparing myself to go to the small room to go and take the child. CHAIRPERSON This house, how many rooms does it have? MS M MOLETE There's one bedroom, a kitchen and a small room that was used like a storeroom. CHAIRPERSON Right and you were taking a bath in the bedroom? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The bedroom door, does that open into the kitchen? MS M MOLETE Yes from the bedroom the door is leading to the kitchen. CHAIRPERSON Right and then to go to the small room which is used as a storeroom? MS M MOLETE Each door is also leading to the kitchen. CHAIRPERSON So you cannot access this small room from the bedroom? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. When you heard the sound of the attack you left the bedroom? MS M MOLETE I was just peeping through a small hole and then I called Florence to come and see. I showed her that people were attacking on the neighbourhood and at that time they were already smashing the shack. CHAIRPERSON And where were you at the time? MS M MOLETE I was still in the bedroom, that is when I was trying to protect Mita. CHAIRPERSON And was Mita in the bedroom already? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. So when you were attacked were you attacked in the bedroom then? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM Now at the stage when you were attacked what was the situation with the light in the bedroom? MS M MOLETE When they entered and started attacking there was also more light, they had already smashed the window. When they took out my husband all the candles fell down but there was still more light in the house, we could see. CHAIRPERSON I'm not with you ma'am. Will you just, you know, speak slowly and then just take it step by step, okay? Now what counsel wants to find out is when they entered the bedroom, this is where you were, was the candle still on? MS M MOLETE Yes it was still on but it fell down. CHAIRPERSON Was it still burning? MS M MOLETE No it fell down and went off. CHAIRPERSON It went out as they entered the bedroom? MS M MOLETE When it fell down and then my husband tried to wake up. I was also trying to protect the child and when it fell down it went off. CHAIRPERSON And were they dragging your husband out of the room? MS M MOLETE They hurt him first and dragged him out of the bedroom. They had already smashed the shack from the eastern side of the shack and dragged him out of the bedroom. They had already smashed the shack from the east, from the eastern side of the shack. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR STRYDOM So to conclude from all this at the time you were attacked there was no light except for what you say moonlight? MS M MOLETE There was still light in the kitchen, so there was light from the kitchen through the door leading to the kitchen and also the moonlight and the Apollo light from outside so we could see because they had already smashed the door and the window so it was easy for us to see inside. MR STRYDOM What source of light was in the kitchen? MS M MOLETE The paraffin lamp was still on in the kitchen. MR STRYDOM That paraffin lamp, did it still stay on through the attack? MS M MOLETE Yes it was still on. ADV SIGODI Sorry, the question was did that paraffin lamp still stay on after the attack? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON We'll take the adjournment ...(indistinct) MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. How many windows did this shack have in the bedroom? MS M MOLETE There was only one window in the bedroom. MR STRYDOM That window, I just want to know the direction, if you looked out of the window would you have looked down to Mashweshwe Street or towards Boipatong or towards the factories. If you looked out of that window? MS M MOLETE It was facing in the direction of the Apollo that is between Majola and Barula Street. MR STRYDOM The attackers that first came in and hacked your husband, can you give any description of those people? MS M MOLETE No unfortunately I won't be able to do so. MR STRYDOM Why not? MS M MOLETE We were trying to hide, I was trying to protect my child because I saw these people attacking my husband so when they smashed at the window it was on the side where my child was and they smashed at that wardrobe so I was trying to protect my child. CHAIRPERSON In relation to the window that was smashed where was your child? MS M MOLETE It was just from this machine what I've just pointed to where Advocate Sigodi is sitting, that's where the child was in relation to the window. MR STRYDOM Now the windows, did they have curtains or the window, sorry, the window in the bedroom, you referred to one window, did it have a curtain? MS M MOLETE Yes it had curtains. MR STRYDOM Were they drawn? MS M MOLETE The curtain was closed. MR STRYDOM So that must have prevented the light from coming in to some extent, is that correct? MS M MOLETE No. MR STRYDOM Why not? MS M MOLETE Because it was only lace it could not prevent the light from coming in. MR STRYDOM When these window panes were broken, what happened to the curtains including the lace curtains, sorry. MS M MOLETE They removed that curtain and threw in the stones while they were shouting and telling us to remove our weapons. MR STRYDOM Now after the candle in the bedroom fell over and died down, it must have been pretty dark in that room, isn't it so? MS M MOLETE No it is not so, in the shack whenever you touch something everything falls down, so now because they threw in stones, so almost everything fell down and then they entered from where they smashed the shack. A shack is not like a well built house so it was easy for the curtain to fall as well. MR STRYDOM How many people would you say entered that shack and started hacking your husband and injuring Florence and then dragging your husband out? MS M MOLETE Florence was in the kitchen. In the bedroom where I was there were three people who came to attack my husband and then from there I was busy trying to protect the child if I could not see other people. I only saw those three people. MR STRYDOM And the person that then started to attack you, was he one of the three or was it a fourth person? MS M MOLETE He was the fourth. MR STRYDOM Did you see how he entered the house or the shack? MS M MOLETE I've already stated that I was trying to remove the child to another room so he entered from the kitchen. MR STRYDOM Now at what stage did you see that he's got a white area, uncovered area close to his eyes? MS M MOLETE I have already stated that there moonlight and Apollo light. The door had already fallen and we could see and also the paraffin lamp was still on in the kitchen so we could see clearly. MR STRYDOM But when did you see it, when he started to attack you or before he attacked you or when? MS M MOLETE The time when he was trying to hack me and when I was holding his hand and I was holding the child on the other side and then he stabbed me with that sharp object and also on the eye so when I tried to turn around, that's when he hacked the baby. MR STRYDOM You made mention of a door that fell down, was that the kitchen door between the kitchen or bedroom or which door? MS M MOLETE Both doors fell. The first one that fell is the kitchen door that is leading to the outside and the door between the kitchen and the bedroom and in this small room there was no ...(indistinct) it was only lace and there is no one that entered into that small room. MR STRYDOM Could you see the attacker's hands? Well your attacker? MS M MOLETE He had hand gloves, I only saw his face. He only had that balaclava but I could see his nose and the eyes and he was just near me. He was fighting me and I could see him clearly while I was holding the baby. MR STRYDOM Do you remember the colour of his eyes? MS M MOLETE He had blue eyes. MR STRYDOM Do you know what he was wearing? MS M MOLETE He put on a Balaclava but I could see his nose and the eyes and it was clear that he was white. In his hand he had hand gloves. MR STRYDOM Now apart from that can you give a description maybe just the colour of the rest of his clothing? MS M MOLETE No I cannot. MR STRYDOM I must put it to you that under the circumstances of an attack like this you must have been - well I take it that you must have been very scared. Do you say that you still managed to look him in the eye to see the colour of his eyes? MS M MOLETE Yes that's true, he was just next to me, I was trying to protect the child, I was looking at him, I was not fighting, he was fighting, I was just holding the baby. I was also surprised. MR STRYDOM Did you speak to him at all? MS M MOLETE No I did not. MR STRYDOM Do you know what the colour of the Balaclava was? MS M MOLETE No I don't remember. MR STRYDOM You see the reason why I'm asking these questions ...(intervention) LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE I must just place on record Chairman that the question was do you know what the colour of the Balaclava was, the answer that was interpreted is "don't remember" and I don't think that was what the answer was from her, the answer was "no". MS M MOLETE I said no, I don't know. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I see it is half past, would this be a convenient time? CHAIRPERSON We'll take a break now and come back at 12 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Ms Molete, may I remind you that you're still under oath? MIRIAM MOLETE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON We will take the lunch adjournment at quarter past 1. Yes Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM (continues) Now after the man which you discovered was a White man attacked you, did he leave the shack again? MS M MOLETE Yes he left the shack. MR STRYDOM Could you see in which direction he went? MS M MOLETE No. MR STRYDOM Apart from that White person, did you see any White persons thereafter? MS M MOLETE The other two were standing at the door. MR STRYDOM Is that the door giving entrance into the house? MS M MOLETE Yes. MR STRYDOM When was the first time for you to see them? MS M MOLETE When I threw myself on the ground. When I lifted up my head I saw them at the door. MR STRYDOM How did you see that they were White? MS M MOLETE They did not put on Balaclavas. They wore camouflage clothes and caps. MR STRYDOM Did they have any weapons with them? MS M MOLETE They had guns with them. MR STRYDOM When you were on the ground or on the floor and you saw these people, what were they doing? MS M MOLETE They were just standing there looking at the house, the inside. MR STRYDOM Did they say anything? MS M MOLETE No. MR STRYDOM At what stage did they move on or leave the house? MS M MOLETE After they shouted uSotho they left. CHAIRPERSON After who shouted USotho? MS M MOLETE It was from outside, there were many people who shouted USotho outside. MR STRYDOM Apart from stating that they were White and they wore this camouflage clothing and a cap, can you give any further description of these two people? MS M MOLETE No. MR STRYDOM In which room were you lying on the floor when you saw them? MS M MOLETE I was at the door leading to the kitchen from the bedroom that is straight from the door that is leading outside. MR LAX Sorry, could you please repeat that please, there was a bit of interference from the back, I couldn't hear you properly? MS M MOLETE I was next to the door leading to the kitchen from the bedroom. They were standing at the door leading to the shack from the outside. MR STRYDOM When you saw them or at the stage you saw them had the other, the person that attacked you left already? MS M MOLETE He left when he threw myself on the ground, that is when he heard people shouting USotho from outside and they all left. MR STRYDOM When they left did you remain on the ground for some time? MS M MOLETE No I stood up. MR STRYDOM After you stood up did you see these people again which were standing in the door? MS M MOLETE After they heard people shouting USotho, they left. CHAIRPERSON What you're being asked is, you threw yourself onto the ground? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON When you stood up again were these people still there? MS M MOLETE No they had already left. CHAIRPERSON Okay. These are now the two men who were at the door and one who had attacked you? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM How many attackers or how many people did you see in the vicinity of your shack? We know now of the people that came in initially, the three people, we know of the person that attacked you and the other two that stood in the door, apart from those did you see other attackers? MS M MOLETE There were many people outside. MR STRYDOM The other people outside can you give any description of what they were wearing? MS M MOLETE No. MR STRYDOM Didn't you see headbands? MS M MOLETE I saw them the first time when I was peeping through the window while they were still smashing the windows next door, that's when I saw them. They had red headbands and others had white headbands. MR STRYDOM But when you came outside after the attack, did you still see many people in that vicinity of the shacks and of your shack? MS M MOLETE They were not far away from our shack, they were being followed by a Hippo in the direction of the firms. MR STRYDOM So when you got out of the shack, the people had already left and there was a Hippo in between you and them, is that what you're saying? MS M MOLETE I was behind the shack, they were at a distance from the shack. MR STRYDOM If you look at Exhibit J and bearing in mind where you indicated where your shack was can you give an indication where you saw this Koyoco and you just mentioned, you said Hippo? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM Can you just point out more or less that we can establish the position? MS M MOLETE I don't understand this because I cannot see clearly. They were moving along Bakwena Street, I was standing behind the shack. MR STRYDOM Yes, now if you accept that at the top of this map you'll find the factories, you see the top street running on this map is Amatola so beyond Amatola you'll find the factories and you remember where you pointed out the position of your shack, now can you in relation to your shack and the factories if Bakwena Street is shown to you, point out where in Bakwena Street did you see the Koyoco or the Hippo? MS M MOLETE We were moving in the direction of the firm in Bakwena Street but at the moment there are taps and a tree there, it's no longer like it was before, that's where I saw that Hippo because other people had left that place so I can no longer remember how the place is now. MR STRYDOM Do you know where the church is at the end of Batswana Street? MS M MOLETE Are you referring to AME Church? Yes I know it. MR STRYDOM I'm referring to the church that's indicated there at the end of Batswana Street. Can you just point that out? MR BERGER I think it is the AME Church you're referring to. MR STRYDOM Now that Hippo was it close to that church or where? MS M MOLETE No that place is far from our shack so we are unable to see when you are at my shack. CHAIRPERSON Is the AME Church far from the shack in which you were? MS M MOLETE It is far. When I look at this map there was a caravan there before. MR STRYDOM But looking now at the map, can you give an indication where you saw the Koyoco in relation to your position? MS M MOLETE I was at number 17 behind the shack and that Koyoco was next to the place where there was a caravan. It was moving slow and there were people behind it moving in the direction of the firms. MR STRYDOM Yes I understand that but do you see Bapedi Street and do you see Batswana Street? In between these streets, along street block is formed. Now I want to know if you can indicate where you saw the Hippo? CHAIRPERSON Didn't she say she saw the Hippo near the caravan? MR STRYDOM She said that but I'm not sure where the caravan is Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is it not indicated on the map? MR STRYDOM No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes I think it's opposite house 133 I think it is. Is it Bakwena Street? MR STRYDOM I'll find it here. MR BERGER That is correct. MR STRYDOM What I want to put to you, in that area you won't find any Apollo lights, is that correct? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM Now from your position behind your shack to that position where you say the Hippo was, how was it able for you to see that vehicle? MS M MOLETE I said this Apollo light in Slovo Park and there was also moonlight so we were able to see everything. MR STRYDOM The lights of this vehicle was it on or off? MS M MOLETE Yes they were in front of this vehicle and it was moving slowly and the Apollo lights were also on. You could see that there were people in front of this Hippo although you could not see who they were. MR STRYDOM Apart from the front lights could you see any other lights on this vehicle? MS M MOLETE No. MR STRYDOM So you did not see the tail lights which normally will be red, of this vehicle? MS M MOLETE I could not see them. MR STRYDOM Can you give any explanation why you did not see the tail lights of this vehicle? MS M MOLETE I said I only saw the front lights. When you are at Slovo at night you could see the people in front of this vehicle. You could see that people are moving in front of it because it's headlights were on. MR STRYDOM I want to put to you that the applicants I appear for said they were in Boipatong that night, well the majority of them were in Boipatong that night and whilst they were in Boipatong and some of them in Slovo Park, they never saw any police or military vehicle close to them but you still maintain that you saw people and this vehicle? MS M MOLETE Yes, I still maintain. MR STRYDOM And they have also testified already that when they attacked houses there was no Whites accompanying them? MS M MOLETE They were there. MR STRYDOM What I want to put to you is that either you are making a mistake about these people you thought to be Whites or you're not telling the truth? MS M MOLETE Mr Strydom, may I ask you a question? If I'm allowed to ask you a question, I don't know whether I'm allowed? CHAIRPERSON No, you're not allowed ma'am. MR STRYDOM After the attack ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You can just answer the question, what he's putting to you is that you are either making a mistake when you say that you saw this motor vehicle and Whites or you are not telling the truth. So what's your comment on that? MS M MOLETE I am telling the truth. MR STRYDOM How soon after the attack did you make a statement in regard to what you saw that night to the police or to any other institution? MS M MOLETE I only remember one statement when we were first by the police and they took us to the Civic Centre at the court. That is the only statement that I remember. I was sick at that time, I did not want to make that statement but they told us they just want to help us. MR STRYDOM I just want to get clarity. Now was that the statement taken at the Civic Centre you didn't want to make but you eventually made? MS M MOLETE I only remember that statement that I made at the Civic Centre. MR STRYDOM Is that the Boipatong Civic Centre? MS M MOLETE There is no Civic Centre in Boipatong, it's here in town. MR STRYDOM In Vanderbijlpark? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM And the person who took the statement, was that a policeman or a representative of some other institution? MS M MOLETE They were policemen, they were White and Black policemen. MR STRYDOM Why didn't you want to make a statement? MS M MOLETE I was angry at that time and I was also sick after the attack, that is why I didn't want to make the statement. MR STRYDOM I know it's very difficult to say but can you remember how long after the incident did you make this statement, was it still the same year or year thereafter? MS M MOLETE It could be four to five months if I'm not mistaken. CHAIRPERSON Four to five months after the attack? MS M MOLETE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And did you tell the person who took down the statement about the White man that injured and attacked you? MS M MOLETE I told him everything. MR STRYDOM Including the Hippo you saw? MS M MOLETE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What was the second question? MR STRYDOM Including the Hippo she saw. CHAIRPERSON Yes and the answer was? MR STRYDOM Yes. Chairperson, I've got the exhibits ready. CHAIRPERSON Now would there be any objection if at some point somebody makes available to us speaking for myself, the photographs of these various motor vehicles, the suitcase, the microwave, the Koyoco? CHAIRPERSON Chairperson, we would have no objection, in fact we've been speaking amongst ourselves and we thought that Mr da Silva might be the correct person to bring along a chart of these different vehicles or perhaps the police, I don't know. But we would welcome that, definitely. MR DA SILVA Mr Chairman, I'll try and make enquiries and I'll try and make a chart or documents available. CHAIRPERSON This one has a sense of - you don't have to worry about Nyala, I know Nyala. MR DA SILVA I'll try and do them Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Will there be any objection on this side? MR STRYDOM Not from our side Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Yes, okay very well. Alright then. MR STRYDOM Chairperson I just handed out a document, unfortunately it's not paginated but it's got an index and I think we'll endeavour to paginate it during the course of the day but I'll try to point to places without paginating at this stage. This document contains statements of witnesses my learned friend intends calling. CHAIRPERSON Very well shall we mark this bundle of statements by various witnesses who might be called by and on behalf of the victims GG? Yes very well? MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson. The first statement I'm going to refer to is the statement of this witness which is the middle of this bundle, Miriam Molete. There are three statements made by this witness in this bundle. On the right hand corner of this first statement, you'll find the numbering 150 to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Does the first one follow the one by Petrus Manyika? MR STRYDOM Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, you'll see that some of these statements have got lines through them, that is how we found them in the docket, I think these witnesses weren't called, it's just sort of a - I think it's marked to indicate that they were not going to be called, that's why there's a line through some of these statements on the first page. MR LAX Mr Strydom, is this a three page statement, the first one you're referring to? MR STRYDOM Yes Mr Lax. MR LAX Because my second page is cut off unfortunately. MR STRYDOM Yes unfortunately all of us, we will have to find the original again, I only realised this this morning that we've got a problem with that one but we'll try to get the original again out from the docket and then replace it in due course. MR LAX Can I just ask something, is the next one something like 1607 or something to that effect? 1609, it's cut off at the top. MR STRYDOM Ja, that's the first one I have Miriam Molete in the bundle. MR LAX I've got two so one comes after? MR STRYDOM Ja. I want to...(intervention) MR BERGER If I could just - Ms Molete has indicated some problems with some of the statement so if you could just confirm which ones are and which ones are not? MR STRYDOM Let's start with the - I've got three statements here, the first one I want to refer you to is the statement that's only on one page which has got I think 1609 at the top. It's a one pager. MR BERGER It doesn't appear 1609 at the top I think it's been just cut off. MR STRYDOM Ja but it's a on page hand-written statement. MR BERGER Perhaps if you could go by date of statement at the bottom? MR STRYDOM Ja, that statement is dated the 20th April 1993. Do you see a signature on that page? Is that your signature? MS M MOLETE: Yes it's mine. MR STRYDOM Now if you turn to the next page that's a further statement that's got 1502 on the top and it has three pages, it's a statement taken according to this statement on the 25th March 1993. You see although but vaguely, but you see the your signature on that page as well, the third page? MS M MOLETE It is not clear. CHAIRPERSON I think it's the one that's below paragraph 6? MR STRYDOM That is so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Molete, can you see that, it's very faint but can you make out that signature? MS M MOLETE I cannot see the first letter but the surname is mine. CHAIRPERSON But can you tell whether that is your signature or not? Mr Berger, will you make sure that she's looking at the same? We're looking at paragraph 6, there's a very faint signature below that. MR BERGER Yes, she's looking at that very one. CHAIRPERSON Now can you tell us what appears there is your signature or not? MS M MOLETE Yes I can see the surname clearly but the name is not clear, yes it's mine, where there is written Molete is my surname. CHAIRPERSON But is it your signature? If you can't say let us know. MS M MOLETE It is because it's not clear but on the first page yes it's mine. MR BERGER The witness is talking about the first statement. MS M MOLETE Yes indeed. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, we have the original available, it's just my attorney, I see he's not in the hearing now, we'll show her in due course the original. CHAIRPERSON Okay very well. MR STRYDOM Then I want you to have a look at a further statement which is a typed statement dated the 9th November 1993. On the second page of that statement just underneath paragraph 10 there's also a signature, would that also be your signature? MS M MOLETE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Wait a minute. You see after the statement which is dated the 25th March 1993, alright, what follows here is yet another statement dated the 20th April 1993? MR STRYDOM Yes Chairperson, that's unfortunately the same statement has been included twice so that's the first statement and the third one would be the same. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps the first statement should not have been included as I see it they were intended to follow the date order. MR STRYDOM Ja so I will ask the first statement be deleted from the bundle. CHAIRPERSON Alright and then this statement is then followed by the typed one? MR STRYDOM That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Okay. MR LAX Sorry what was your answer? Did you ask her about her signature on the top one? MR STRYDOM Yes and I think she confirmed that, let's make sure? MR LAX Just to get the answer clearly? MR STRYDOM Do you confirm your signature on the last typed statement? MS M MOLETE Yes that's mine. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR STRYDOM Now before I cross-examine you in more detail, I just want to put it to you that in neither of these three statements do you make mention of the two people which you said were Whites with the camouflage clothing. Can you give any explanation for that? MS M MOLETE I don't know whether they have written that here but I told them everything that happened even though I was sick but I could remember everything. Even now I still remember everything but I did not read the statement. MR STRYDOM And I also want to put to you that the Hippo you saw and the people walking with the Hippo does not appear in any one of these statements? MS M MOLETE It is so, I don't know what is written here because I did not read the statements. MR STRYDOM Why did you sign the statements? MS M MOLETE I see another statement which indicated that it was made in Vereeniging, I have never been to Vereeniging, that is the one that is typed. I have never made a statement in Vereeniging. MR STRYDOM Why do you say that the typed statement was taken in Vereeniging? MR BERGER Ms Molete is pointing to the address of the Commissioner of Oaths. MR STRYDOM Oh, just the address. Have you ever made a statement in Pretoria? MS M MOLETE Those are the same statements that we made in Vanderbijlpark that were sent to Pretoria. MR STRYDOM Were you taken to Pretoria at any stage in connection with this matter? MS M MOLETE I went there twice except when we were called by Mr Steenkamp. I went there twice and then thereafter we were called by Mr Steenkamp. MR STRYDOM Now you referred to Mr Steenkamp. Now he was the investigating officer of the criminal trial. Did he take a statement of you in Pretoria? MS M MOLETE I made a mistake, we made a statement in Vanderbijlpark to Mr Steenkamp so the other times we went to Pretoria, we went there twice, when we were called by you, Mr Strydom. MR STRYDOM You went there twice? MS M MOLETE So when I included that day I went there three times. MR STRYDOM You never testified at the criminal hearing is that correct? MS M MOLETE No. We were just asked questions. MR STRYDOM Did you at any stage refuse to testify at the criminal hearing? MS M MOLETE No, I never refused. MR STRYDOM According to the third statement, the typed statement, it was taken on the 9th November 1993 at Pretoria. Do you deny that? MR LAX With the greatest of respect, Mr Strydom, it was signed on that day before this person at Pretoria. It wasn't taken there, that's not clear from the statement anyway. MR STRYDOM Yes, yes, as you please. It was signed, yes it was signed. Do you deny signing that statement in Pretoria? MS M MOLETE I do not deny that I signed the statement but I say that the statement we made to Mr Steenkamp we were in Vanderbijlpark so when we were taken to Pretoria we were just asked questions. MR STRYDOM I want to refer you to the statement that according to the statement, that's the second statement, well the three page statement which was taken on the 25th March 1993 at Vanderbijlpark. The three page statement. CHAIRPERSON Why don't we, you know to avoid any confusion, why don't we refer to the statement if it's the 25th March to be the first statement and then the statement dated 20th April 1993 the second statement and the typed written statement the third statement? Did you get that Mr Berger? MR BERGER Yes I did. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR STRYDOM Now in this statement you said as follows ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Which statement? MR STRYDOM The first statement. CHAIRPERSON The first statement, 25th March? MR STRYDOM That is correct, on the first page thereof. CHAIRPERSON Right. MR STRYDOM I'm going to read from more or less the middle of the page. "At that time I saw the window being broken and the door was broken. These people entered into the house and two of them assaulted my sister Florence with sticks. I saw another people pulling my husband out of the house. I then tried to remove my daughter from the room. Then before I could remove the child a member of that group started to chop the child with a panga." Now the question I want to ask you, the person that attacked you and the child, was he one of the people that came into the house initially? MS M MOLETE I said he was a White man, he entered alone from the kitchen door. MR STRYDOM So he was not one of the people who came in initially with the three people you testified about now? MS M MOLETE He was not one of them because those other people did not use the door to enter, they entered from the opening where they have smashed the shack. MR STRYDOM Now I also asked you today if you can give any description as to the clothing of the person that attacked you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom, the part that you began reading, just read that sentence again? MR STRYDOM: "At that time I saw the window being broken and the door was broken. These people entered into the house and two of them" ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well is that "these" I can't see, it looks to me like a t-h? MR STRYDOM It is three, ja. It looks like three to me as well. "Three people entered into the house and two of them assaulted my sister, Florence, with sticks." CHAIRPERSON Right. Okay? MR STRYDOM And then later on it said "Then before I could move the child a member of that group started to chop the child with a panga." MR LAX Just to put it in context, the next sentence is quite crucial it would seem because it says "I saw other people pulling my husband out of the house" So it seems there were quite a lot of people in the house according to what this statement says but obviously you will clear that up? CHAIRPERSON Okay, what does the witness say in regard to the first sentence that you've read? Just reconfirm that, the first sentence? MR STRYDOM May I just put that question again? I've read to you that sentence. Do you confirm the correctness of that sentence? Just for clarity I'll just repeat it quickly. CHAIRPERSON Okay, let me just explain to her. Ms Molete, what counsel is going to do now, he's going to read to you what appears in a statement dated 25th March 1993, do you understand that? MS M MOLETE Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON Remember, this is the statement where in regard to which you've told us that you cannot say whether that is your signature because it is not clear, do you understand that? MS M MOLETE Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON Okay, now as he reads the sentence by sentence of the statement, would you tell us whether you confirm that or deny the statement that's been read to you? Do you understand that? MS M MOLETE Yes I do. MR STRYDOM Thank you. The first sentence I want to put to you: "At that time I saw the window being broken and the door was broken. Three people entered into the house and two of them assaulted my sister, Florence, with sticks." Is that correct? MS M MOLETE Well I did not see happening to Florence, I may not agree with that. CHAIRPERSON Okay, right, the only portion of that statement that you confirm is that you saw three people entering the house? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR STRYDOM Do you know with what weapon your sister Florence was assaulted? MS M MOLETE No. MR STRYDOM And then the statement continues to read as follows "I saw other people pulling my husband out of the house" Is that correct? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM And then it continues "I then tried to remove my daughter from the room. Then before I could remove the child the member of that group started to chop the child with a panga." Is that correct? MS M MOLETE No, that is not correct there. MR STRYDOM Which portion is incorrect or is everything incorrect? MS M MOLETE Everything that you have just read is incorrect. CHAIRPERSON What he has read to you is "I then tried to remove my daughter from the room and before I could remove the child a member of that group started to chop the child with a panga." You say that whole statement is incorrect? MS M MOLETE It is not correct because I did not say it the way it is written there. MR STRYDOM When you made this statement an interpreter was used, is that correct? MS M MOLETE I made this statement to a Black person, he was talking to Mr Steenkamp. That person spoke Sepedi. MR STRYDOM Did you understand him? MS M MOLETE Somewhere I was struggling, I even requested him to used seTswana, maybe I would understand him. MR STRYDOM Do you remember if his name was Lucky Samuel Kekana? MS M MOLETE Yes, I do remember. MR STRYDOM But at the end of your statement you were happy enough with the statement to sign the statement is that correct? MS M MOLETE Can you please repeat the question Sir? MR STRYDOM You've signed the statement and - let me put it the other way around, were you prepared to sign a statement you're not happy with? MS M MOLETE I have already explain the conditions at that time when we were making these statements. MR STRYDOM The question is still, would you sign a statement you're not happy with? MS M MOLETE If they had read the statement to me I would have told them that I'm not satisfied about this statement because after they have asked me questions they told me just to sign, that is why I signed the statement. MR STRYDOM I'm going to continue reading the statement and want your comments? "I then tried to intervene. He chopped my left thumb" and it goes on: "he stabbed me with a self made" I think it should read: "sharp instrument" which is mentioned here to be a "Injumnetjo" is that correct? MS M MOLETE I never tried to intervene, I was just holding the baby, this was a small baby. MR STRYDOM But this portion of the statement is this correct? MS M MOLETE It's not correct where you say I tried to intervene. MR STRYDOM But didn't you try to protect the child? MS M MOLETE I tried to use my hand to protect my child, I was not fighting back. This person was not fighting me, he was just hacking randomly. MR STRYDOM It goes on "When I looked deeply at him I could see that" ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON There's a portion here which says "he chopped my left thumb". MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM I then I've read you that portion "When I looked deeply at him I could see that his eyes are blue and his nose was pink. I could not see his hands because he was wearing a polo neck and black hand gloves." Is that portion correct? MS M MOLETE It is correct. MR STRYDOM I'll ask you today if you can give any description of your attackers clothing and you said no you can't. In your statement you said that he was wearing a polo neck. Why did you state it like that? MS M MOLETE You asked me what he had in his hands and he said he had hand gloves and you asked me about the gloves. Then I said he wore a Balaclava and that's all. You didn't ask me about the colour. MR STRYDOM No I asked you about any description of any other part of his clothing and you said no you can't give me any further description but in your statement you made mention of a polo neck. Can you give any explanation? MS M MOLETE Can you please repeat that question again? MR STRYDOM What's been put to you is that when you're been asked what clothing the person who attacked you was wearing your answer was you can't say. MR LAX Chair, just if I may? The question was can you remember what the colour of the rest of his clothing was and your answer to that was no, I cannot, but that's how the question was framed, it's wasn't framed on what other clothes he was wearing. CHAIRPERSON A description of other clothes. MR LAX It was the colour of the other clothes that was asked, or description. Fair enough. CHAIRPERSON You were asked whether could you give a description of any other clothing that he was wearing and the answer was no, you are unable to do so. Do you understand that? MS M MOLETE Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON In your statement to the police you told them that this person was wearing a polo neck and black hand gloves. I think all that counsel wants to find out from you is when he asked you about what is the description of the other clothing that this person was wearing, why didn't you tell him that this person wore a polo neck? MS M MOLETE I heard him asking me about the gloves and the Balaclava so when he referred to other clothes and then I said I cannot say. MR STRYDOM But the question is, do you remember now that he wore a polo neck or not? MS M MOLETE I don't remember, it's a long time ago and I already said that when I made the statement I was sick. It's now seven years since this took place. CHAIRPERSON Is the position that as you're sitting there you cannot remember whether this man was wearing a polo neck? MS M MOLETE It can be true because I could only see his nose and the eyes. CHAIRPERSON But do you remember now that this man was wearing a polo neck? MS M MOLETE Yes I remember now. MR STRYDOM Do you know what the colour of the polo neck was? MS M MOLETE All his clothes were dark. MR STRYDOM At a certain stage, someone, one of the attackers said "take out your firearms" or words to that effect. When was that, before the attack on you or after the attack on you? MS M MOLETE That is before the attack. MR STRYDOM If you can just bear with me for a moment, I'm just getting the original here to make it easier? Unfortunately, the original is not forthcoming. I want to continue. The statement: "I realised that he is a White person although he had a Balaclava" is that correct? MS M MOLETE I don't understand now? MR STRYDOM I'm reading your statement, I just want to confirm if it's correct or not. I assume the first word is "I" "I realised that he is a White person" MR BERGER Perhaps if you could just put it in read before, put it in context again. MR STRYDOM Ja, well I've read that portion wearing a polo neck and black hand gloves. "I realised that he is a White person even though he had a Balaclava." Is that portion correct? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM During this whole pandemonium I saw other members of the group at the window saying "Kepani isimbamo zeno" - take out your firearm. Is that correct? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM According to this statement, if one looks at the sequence this was said after the attack on yourself, is the sequence correct? CHAIRPERSON I'm not sure whether that apparent because one gets the impression as I read the sentence, it would appear that - well I can't see what the word is there but it would appear that during this whole pandemonium, "I saw other members of the group at the window." MR STRYDOM Yes I think I'm going to leave that because maybe that's a bit too much splitting hairs. I going to leave that, I withdraw that question. CHAIRPERSON But also here, is there a paragraph 3 here? I can't see the paragraph 3? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I've got a copy now that's not cut off. I'll make copies during the ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is there a paragraph 3? MR STRYDOM No, it's not paragraph 3, just goes from paragraph 2 unless it's at the bottom here cut off here but there's no indication of paragraph 3, it just carries on. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR STRYDOM Paragraph 4 starts ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON According to my watch it's approximately 2 minutes to now, I'm sure whether my watch is ...(intervention) MR STRYDOM Ja, it's 14.41 so it's basically quarter past. Will this be convenient because I'm getting onto the next point now, the next paragraph. CHAIRPERSON And you're going to be fairly long on the last part? MR STRYDOM Well I'm carrying on with the statement so the whole statement will take some time but not too long hopefully. CHAIRPERSON I mean the aspect that you want? MR STRYDOM No, I'm going to leave the previous aspect, I'm going on to the new one now. CHAIRPERSON Okay. We will take the lunch adjournment now, we'll come back at 2 o'clock. MR LOWIES Mr Chairman, before we do so could I request indication from you as to until what time we're going to sit, I want to arrange a consultation later this evening. If you could just give us an indication regarding that please? CHAIRPERSON Alright, okay. If we come back at 2 o'clock, we should be able to take a break round about 3 o'clock with about 15 minutes break and then perhaps go on until about you know, 5? Yes. MR LOWIES We're in your hands. CHAIRPERSON I think there's a general consensus that we can go toward 5. MR STRYDOM If we have to Chair. CHAIRPERSON We'll take a break at about 3 o'clock for about 15 to 20 minutes. MR LOWIES Thank you Chairman, I'm indebted to you. CHAIRPERSON Yes alright. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Molete, may I remind you that you're still under oath? MIRIAM MOLETE (s.u.o.) Yes, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM (continues) Thank you Chairperson. I'm going to continue reading certain portions of your statement and want your comment please? "I then grabbed my child and I told them that I would rather die than my child. I fell onto the ground. They then left the shack saying "USotho, USotho." MS M MOLETE Yes that is correct. MR STRYDOM Then thereafter you say "After their departure we ran towards the dumping site for safety." Is that how it happened? MS M MOLETE I don't understand that one, can you repeat the question again? MR STRYDOM You said that you fell to the ground, then the people left, they said "USotho, USotho" and then you went to the dumping site, is that sequentially correct? MS M MOLETE It is not all correct, there are portions that are not correct. MR STRYDOM What portion is not correct? MS M MOLETE After they had left they shouted their slogan. I tried to apply first aid to my child, then I went outside to look for my husband so that part does not appear on what you have read. Then after this we went to the dumping place. MR STRYDOM Is that the only portion that is left out in the sequence of events that night? MS M MOLETE Yes that is correct. MR STRYDOM What about the two people, the two White people in camouflage clothing that you saw? When was that then? MS M MOLETE When I threw myself on the ground I pretended to be dead. When they shouted "USotho" all the people left even this one who was inside the shack left. MR STRYDOM What I want to point out to you is that you don't make mention in this statement like in your evidence here before the Committee about these two people in camouflage clothing. Can you give an explanation? MS M MOLETE I said that I mentioned that but I don't know why it is not written there. MR STRYDOM And even if I asked you now to tell us what happened at the stage when you fell to the ground if there's anything left out and you again did not mention these people in camouflage clothing? Why do you keep on forgetting them? MS M MOLETE We had not yet arrived at that question. MR STRYDOM But you testified today if I remember correctly in your question in chief, when you fell to the ground you saw these people with the camouflage clothing. So why didn't you mention them when I asked you what happened in sequence at the stage when you fell to the ground? MS M MOLETE I heard you asking me whether when after I fell down and left for the dumping place, you asked me to comment on that and I said there is something that is left. MR STRYDOM You saw these people with the camouflage clothing before you went to the dumping ground, is that correct? MS M MOLETE I said when I threw myself on the ground with the baby I saw them standing at the door so when this other man left the other people outside shouted "USotho" and everybody including these two guys left. CHAIRPERSON Did you see these two White men before you fell to the ground or after that? MS M MOLETE I threw myself on the ground and then when I lifted my head and then I saw these two men standing outside but I could see them, I was inside then. MR STRYDOM This dumping site, you must indicate a direction, is the dumping site towards - further east from Slovo Park, that's away from Boipatong township, you can have a look at Exhibit J? MS M MOLETE The place is just behind Slovo Park. MR STRYDOM Yes but if you say behind is it further away from - let me put it this way, is it Boipatong side or the other side towards the east? MS M MOLETE It is behind the Slovo Park shacks. MR STRYDOM Is it possible to indicate on Exhibit J where you will find that dump? MS M MOLETE I cannot. MR STRYDOM Is it off the map towards the right as you will look at it? MS M MOLETE I'm unable to see. MR STRYDOM Just start as a starting point with your house number 17 or the house you slept in that night, 17. Can you see it? MS M MOLETE Yes I do. MR STRYDOM Well if you look at your house, this dumping site is that towards the right as you look at it? MS M MOLETE Can you repeat again, the question? MR STRYDOM Do you see your house, number 17 on the map? CHAIRPERSON No, I don't think it's but as I understand her evidence, he pointed out in the area of number 15 I think that's what he ...(indistinct). MR STRYDOM Yes, let's just take number 15, the 15 that's marked on the map. Do you see house 15? MS M MOLETE Yes I do. MR STRYDOM All I want to know, this dumping site, if you must take in relation to that position of that house, where would you find it, towards the right or more towards Bakwena Street and Boipatong? MS M MOLETE It's very far, that place is behind the shacks at the back. You move through that passage at number 15 and number 17 and there are also other shacks that you have to pass through before you arrive at that dumping place. MR STRYDOM But the question is which direction would you move, would you move towards the right as you look at it on the map? Or do you go to Boipatong side? MS M MOLETE It's not in the direction of Boipatong. CHAIRPERSON Do you have to move further into Slovo Park? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR STRYDOM At what stage did you see the Hippo before you went to the dumping ground or after or on your way there? MS M MOLETE Before you enter to the dumping place. MR STRYDOM Because in your statement you said that the people left after saying "USotho, USotho" and then you said you went towards the dumping site for safety. So the point I want to make is this important aspect about the Hippo is also not in this statement? MS M MOLETE I said after all this I applied first aid to my child and then I went outside to look for my husband and then when I was at the back of my sister's shed I saw this Hippo. MR STRYDOM Yes, now on the third page of your statement you said "I will not be able to point out any of the suspects because it was dark. I was confused and they were too many." Is that statement a correct statement? MS M MOLETE No, it's not correct. MR STRYDOM What's wrong with that portion of the statement? MS M MOLETE The portion that is incorrect is where you say I said could not point out those people because it was at night and that portion that reads that I said I was confused I did not say that I could not be able to point them because I was confused. That's not what I said. MR STRYDOM Do you remember what you said? MS M MOLETE I don't remember. MR STRYDOM But if you can't remember what you said how can you remember what you did not say? MS M MOLETE I am referring to that portion that you have just read, I don't remember me saying that. MR STRYDOM Tell me, during the attack just thereafter, weren't you confused? MS M MOLETE After how long? MR STRYDOM You know, during the course of that night, during the attack and during the course of that night before the next day weren't you confused? MS M MOLETE I don't know because I was at a hospital on a bed. MR STRYDOM Yes but before you went to the hospital, were you confused? MS M MOLETE We went to the hospital after the attack, we boarded the ambulance so I don't understand how should I answer that question because we were at that dumping place. I was afraid at that stage. MR STRYDOM Can you point out any one of the attackers? Say for instance the attackers come in front of you now will you be able to point them out? MS M MOLETE I said that man had a Balaclava, I won't be able to point him, it was at night as well. MR STRYDOM Yes but some of the other people, attackers, would you be able to point them out? MS M MOLETE I was not fighting against many people, it was only one man against my baby. MR STRYDOM So this portion is actually correct, I will not be able to point out any of the suspects, is that correct? MS M MOLETE Yes, it's correct. MR STRYDOM Now why were you not able to point out any of the suspects or attackers? MS M MOLETE I said I was attacked by one person, me and my baby and it was at night, he was a White man, that is why I am unable to point other people. MR STRYDOM Yes you are saying it was night and it was dark, isn't it so and you were confused and there were too many, isn't that correct? MS M MOLETE I didn't say I was confused and I didn't say there were many, I have already indicated that that portion is incorrect. CHAIRPERSON What counsel is putting to you, you've told us that you aren't able to point us to any of the suspects, is that right? MS M MOLETE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON What he wants to find out from you is the reason for that, not that it was at night and that it was dark. MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And that these people were many? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And that you were confused? MS M MOLETE When this statement was written I was sick, since the attack even today I'm still sick, if that portion refers to that time. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. MR STRYDOM Thank you. MR STRYDOM When you made a statement you said you were sick, was that as a result of the attack or was it at that time that you made the statement that you had some ailment? MS M MOLETE As a result of the attack. MR STRYDOM The statement goes on to read "Four cooking pots and my wrist watch as well as my husband's watch were stolen." Is that correct? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM: "The door wardrobe is also damaged, the total cost can be R2000. Nothing has been recovered." Is that correct? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM So it seems to me there was no problem with the interpreter when you told him these things about what was stolen and what was damaged, is that correct? MS M MOLETE Yes, there was no problem. MR STRYDOM Now it was indicated to you that this statement was taken on the 25 March 1993. Now subsequent to that you've signed a further statement and it purports to be a statement taken or signed, over that I can't tell you, but on the 9th November 1993. CHAIRPERSON Were you able to look at the original to the first statement? MR STRYDOM My attorney is looking for the original, what we have has another photocopy which was not cut off but the original is still not with us but I hope to get it soon. MR LAX Are you going to give us that uncut page? MR STRYDOM I can also ask my attorney to make photostat copies of that. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR STRYDOM I want to move onto the I think, Chairperson, it's the second statement, that's the typed one. MS PRETORIUS Chairperson, may I just be excused just to see if I can locate the original copy? May I be excused for a couple of minutes, I'll try and look up the original copy. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR STRYDOM Now the date that appears on this statement is November 1993, 9th November 1993. I can put to you that's during the time when the criminal trial was in progress. Do you remember that you went to Pretoria? You already said that you went to Pretoria in connection with the criminal trial at a certain time, is that correct? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM Do you speak Afrikaans, do you understand it? MS M MOLETE I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Do you understand Afrikaans? MS M MOLETE I don't know it well. MR STRYDOM When you spoke to the police officer Steenkamp, did you communicate with him in Afrikaans or can't you remember? MS M MOLETE I never spoke to Mr Steenkamp. There was a Black guy who was interpreting for Mr Steenkamp. MR STRYDOM Now when this statement was then taken during November did you still feel ill about the attack? MS M MOLETE I have been ill since the 17th June 1992 till today. MR STRYDOM I don't understand what you mean by that, do you mean that therefore you can't give a proper account of what happened during that day of the attack or why do you keep on saying that you are ill? MR STRYDOM I became ill thereafter, I had a problem with stress and I've been frequently going to the hospital and I was told that I have heart problems, even today I still have those problems. MR STRYDOM I understand that but I just want to find out if that effects your ability to explain to us what happened on the day of the attack or not? MS M MOLETE Like this lady who is sitting next to me, they know that I can have fits, I sometimes get fits. That is since this happened to me, like now I don't feel well because now we are recounting what happened on the 17th. I fell during the Truth Commission hearings and I was sent to the hospital. MR STRYDOM I will leave it at that. I just want to ask you certain questions about this statement. I'm going to refer to certain portions of paragraph 4. I'm going to translate as I carry on, if I'm incorrect just correct me. "Two male persons looked into the window and said in Zulu, we are looking for weapons." Is that correct? MS M MOLETE I did not say there were two and they never asked for weapons, they said we should take out our guns. MR STRYDOM So how many people did you say said that? MS M MOLETE On the window I could see three people. MR STRYDOM: "Whilst I was on my way to speak to the two other males, took off a corrugated iron on the side of the house" or "torn off a piece of corrugated iron on the side of the house and came into the room." Is that correct? MS M MOLETE That is not correct, that is not true. MR STRYDOM So what's the untrue part of that? MS M MOLETE Everything that you have read is not correct, I never told about corrugated iron. MR STRYDOM And that the impression that I gain from this is that there were two people initially and then another two so we're talking about four people. You testified here about three people. Is that the difference between your evidence here and the statement? MS M MOLETE Yes, that's the difference because you asked me about the people who were standing at the window, you did not ask me about the people who were removing the corrugated iron. MR LAX Did I hear you correctly, did you talk about corrugated iron now being removed? MS M MOLETE I was saying what Mr Strydom has said, I never said that they were removing corrugated iron, I said they told us to hand over our weapons. MR STRYDOM So at no stage did they remove corrugated iron to gain entry into the house? MS M MOLETE I don't know about the people who were standing at the window, I said that there were many people outside so I don't know who removed the corrugated irons. MR STRYDOM So corrugated iron was in fact removed is that what you're saying but you don't know by whom? MS M MOLETE Yes, hardboards were used to build the shack and they were removed, not corrugated irons. MR STRYDOM I'm going to read you a bit lower down. CHAIRPERSON Did anyone remove corrugated iron? MS M MOLETE They removed those hardboards but I don't know who actually removed those hardboards. MR STRYDOM But in your statement to Mr Steenkamp you didn't tell him that someone removed corrugated iron? MS M MOLETE I was not talking directly to Mr Steenkamp, I was talking to this policeman who was interpreting for Mr Steenkamp and I mentioned that my sister's shack was not built by corrugated iron but hardboards. All corrugated irons were on top of the shack, they were not used to build the shack. CHAIRPERSON The shack that you're talking about in which you were was that your sister's shack? MS M MOLETE Yes, that's my sister's shack. CHAIRPERSON Florence? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is that the one whose roof was made out of corrugated iron? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON But you did not tell the police officer, the Black police officer, who was interpreting for you that someone removed the corrugated iron? MS M MOLETE I said there is someone who removed those hardboards and they entered from that opening but I cannot say who removed those hardboards because there were many people there. MR STRYDOM Did you see the people who removed the hardboard? CHAIRPERSON I thought she said she couldn't say who removed it. Is that right? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM I want to move onto another portion of your statement. "The door between the kitchen and the room was in the meantime being forced open and I want to flee outside with the kid. At that stage the candle that burned in the room died or went out and the lamp which was burning in the kitchen fell and broke and there was no light in the house." Is that portion of your statement correct? MS M MOLETE It's not correct. I said the candle fell in the bedroom but the paraffin lamp in the kitchen was still burning, it was on top of the cupboard in the kitchen. CHAIRPERSON And this lamp burned throughout the attack? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM So can you give any explanation why this portion appears in your statement that the lamp fell and broke and there was no light in the house? MS M MOLETE Well I don't know. MR STRYDOM I want to suggest to you that is what you told the person that took the statement? MS M MOLETE I told you that I don't know Afrikaans well and you said it's Mr Steenkamp who wrote that statement. I had an interpreter so I don't know why that appeared on my statement. MR STRYDOM The next portion of the statement, just tell me if that's correct? "In the door between the two rooms a person with a Balaclava over his head, a polo neck jersey and gloves stormed me." Is that correct? He stormed towards you. "Hy het my afgestorm." MS M MOLETE Can you please repeat that question again? MR STRYDOM: "In the door between the two rooms a person charged me. The person had a Balaclava over his head, a polo neck jersey and gloves." MS M MOLETE He was not trying to attack me, he was really attacking me. MR STRYDOM I want to put to you is that ...(intervention) MS M MOLETE May I have a break? A short break please? We can go on. CHAIRPERSON Do you not want to have a short break? MS M MOLETE Yes there was something that was disturbing me. May I please go outside for a while? CHAIRPERSON We will take an adjournment and come back at 10 past 3. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MIRIAM MOLETE (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM (cont) Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, in the meantime a better copy of the second page of the first statement was added to all the copies. I also have now available the original statement if I can just show this statement to the witness to identify her signature on the third page. Do you identify your signature on the last page of that statement? MS M MOLETE Yes I can see it. MR STRYDOM Thank you Chairperson, will it be necessary to hand in the original? CHAIRPERSON Are we talking about the second statement/ MR STRYDOM Ja, the first statement, the one dated the 25th March 1993 where she testified that she cannot see her signature properly. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR STRYDOM The first statement. CHAIRPERSON That's right, the first statement. Okay. Yes, very well. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, we'll put the statement back in the police docket, it will be there. I'm returning now to the second statement, that is the typed statement on the second page, paragraph 7. MR LAX It's the third statement. MR STRYDOM Third sorry, I must write that. I'm not going to read the full statement to you but what I want to put to you is that again in this statement no mention is made of the people in camouflage clothing and there's also no mention of the Hippo or the Koyoco which you saw accompanying a group as they were leaving towards the factories. Now do you have any comment why this again does not appear in the statement? MS M MOLETE I would not know because this statement has been typed using a typewriter. When this was done I was not there, they might have added to what I said, I'm not sure about that. MR STRYDOM Yes but you signed the typed statement? MS M MOLETE The statement was hand-written. The typed one I only see now at these hearings. MR STRYDOM You see in this typed statement you said that after or thereafter, that's paragraph 7, the second sentence "Thereafter I went outside but I couldn't see my husband. I looked around but I couldn't see my husband. I shouted vigorously and Saldana came from the direction of his house and told me I mustn't make so much noise because the attackers will hear me." Is that correct, did you say that to the person who took the statement? MS M MOLETE The whole portion you read is not correct. MR STRYDOM ...(inaudible) so I'm sure the person who took the statement did not know the name Saldana, it must have come from you, isn't it so? MS M MOLETE When I first gave the statement I mentioned the people who were in the house. I never shouted. I went to Saldana's place for help. MR STRYDOM And when you went to Saldana's house did you see that that house was in total disarray? MS M MOLETE That is at my sister or brother's place there, at Saldana's place, there was no fence at Florence's place, I went through the gate into the house carrying the baby, I did not shout. CHAIRPERSON Who is Saldana? MS M MOLETE Saldana is my sister's husband. MR STRYDOM Is his surname Mnisi? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM And your sister is Poleng Mnisi? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And did they live in Slovo Park at the time of the attack? MS M MOLETE Are you referring to the Mnisi family? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM Was their house opposite the shack that was attacked where you were in? MS M MOLETE Slovo Park is an area of shacks, the whole area. MR STRYDOM Yes but my question is this, the shack of the Mnisi's close to the shack or opposite the shack where you were when you were attacked? MS M MOLETE That is opposite to number 17 and that place is number 19, it's next door. MR STRYDOM Yes. When you left the shack where you were attacked when was the first time after that when you saw Florence again? MS M MOLETE After the attack I went to hospital, I saw them as they came to me at the hospital. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry. Subject to my interpretation being correct, this sentence says "I screamed hysterically" Is that a proper interpretation? MR STRYDOM I translate it as "vigorously" or very, very loudly. Or the hysterical may also be correct, it's very close. MR BERGER I don't think it's hysterically, I screamed terribly. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Now what was the response to this statement? MR STRYDOM She said she never shouted. CHAIRPERSON Okay. You never screamed? MS M MOLETE No Sir, I did not. CHAIRPERSON Okay and Saldana did not come from his house and tell you "Do not make such a noise otherwise the attackers will hear you"? MS M MOLETE He did not come out of his house, I went to his house. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR STRYDOM Yes, thank you Chair. And it's stated here: "We went to Saldana's house where we saw that everything was in a total disarray" Is that portion correct? MS M MOLETE No. MR STRYDOM What's wrong there? MS M MOLETE Where you read that everything was in disarray at Saldana's house. MR STRYDOM Now wasn't the situation that things were turned upside down there? MS M MOLETE Things were not in the normal state, windows were broken. MR STRYDOM And inside the house, was everything in order? MS M MOLETE I had just arrived on that day on the day of the attack. What I found wrong was the broken windows. CHAIRPERSON Just before you go on, there is a sentence here. Can you remember I just read to you the portion of the statement which indicates that you screamed, Saldana came out of his house to warn you not to make a noise, do you remember that portion? MS M MOLETE Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON Right. Now after this statement continues and it says "I said to Saldana there was no one because they had already left." And I think by "they" here reference is being made to the attackers. Did you say this to Saldana? MS M MOLETE I went to Saldana's place and I said to him I need help. I cannot see Pule. CHAIRPERSON Okay, so you did not say to Saldana "well there was no one else" that was all of them, I mean "everyone is gone"? MS M MOLETE That is so, I never said that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And you went to his house as I understand your evidence? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And then did you find him? That is Saldana? MS M MOLETE I found them all in the house. CHAIRPERSON They were inside the house? MS M MOLETE Yes inside the shack. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM At the stage you went to Saldana's house had you already seen the Hippo? MS M MOLETE I had finished that portion, I saw the Hippo whilst I was behind the house before I went to Saldana's place. CHAIRPERSON When you arrived at Saldana's house, was he with someone there or was he all by himself? MS M MOLETE He was with his wife and child. CHAIRPERSON Well see the statement that I've been reading to you continues to say "In response to my question as to where my sister was he said he did not know." I beg your pardon: "In response to my question as to where my sister and her child were, his response was he did not know." Do you know anything about that? MS M MOLETE No, that's nothing I know. ADV SIGODI Sorry, can I just clarify something with you? The shack number 17 that you sent to, whose shack was it? MS M MOLETE Florence Molete. ADV SIGODI And the other one, Saldana's house? MS M MOLETE Number 19, that is one who follows me, Jeanette Molete. ADV SIGODI So both of these shacks belonged to your sisters, your two sisters. MS M MOLETE That is correct, the two shacks belongs to my sisters. CHAIRPERSON Is Jeanette and Pule one and the same person? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Oh okay. ADV SIGODI So when you arrived at Saldana's house you say you found him with his wife and with his child, Is that correct? MS M MOLETE That is correct, madam. ADV SIGODI What did you say to him, did you ask him anything or did you say anything to him? MS M MOLETE I said to him I'm looking for Pule, where is Pule, my child has been injured and Saldana said no, leave for the dumping place so that I can get an ambulance. He never answered me where my husband was. MR STRYDOM When you got to Saldana's house did you tell him that you just saw a Hippo driving up the street towards the factory? MS M MOLETE There was no time for such statements. I told him I need help, I was carrying a child, I asked him where is Pule, that is when he said we must leave for Madiki so that he can arrange for ambulance. MR STRYDOM And did you find - sorry. CHAIRPERSON When you went to Saldana's house you had already seen the Hippo? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM The Hippo, was it clearly visible so that many people could have seen it driving in Bakwena Street? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM Apart from the attackers did you see when you went outside when you saw the Hippo, other people from Slovo Park or Boipatong in the streets? MS M MOLETE There was nobody it was just that Hippo and those people alone. MR STRYDOM And what was the colour of the Hippo? MS M MOLETE The Hippo's colour was mustard yellow. MR STRYDOM Was it a camouflage or not? MS M MOLETE I said it was yellow. MR STRYDOM No but I just want to find out if it was a bright yellow, you know this bright yellow that the police paint their vehicles with, like the vehicles that sometimes stand outside here. Was it a bright yellow colour or was it you say a mustard yellow, is it a darker yellow or what? MS M MOLETE It was this light because it was clear outside. MR STRYDOM I want to put to you that I've got a statement in my possession of Poleng Mnisi, that forms part of the bundle more towards the front, Chairperson, and what I want to put, I'm not going to read this statement to you but I want to put to you that Poleng Mnisi never made mention of any Koyoco or any Hippo in her statement and I've also got a statement of Florence Molete, your other sister, and similarly she does not state in this statement that at any stage she saw any Hippo or Koyoco. CHAIRPERSON Who is the second person? MR STRYDOM Florence Molete, yes. So it seems to me that you were the only sister that saw this vehicle, is that according to your knowledge also the situation? MS M MOLETE Each one of us made in the statement in the manner they observed the events and this is how I observed the events. MR STRYDOM These people with the camouflage clothing, did they have overcoats on or not? MS M MOLETE No. MR STRYDOM And I think just to make it clear, also not Balaclavas, they had caps on? Is that correct? MS M MOLETE That is not correct. They had camouflage overalls and caps. MR STRYDOM You see because according to Florence Molete in her statement at page 2 of her statement, on top of the statement appears the figures 1610, the second page of Florence Molete's statement. MR LAX Mr Strydom, where about on that page, can you just refer? MR STRYDOM At the bottom of the page. MR LAX Is that paragraph 4, is that right? MR STRYDOM Yes the last portion. It stated "When I got outside it was full moon, the light bright and I saw a White male person wearing a (camouflage) and an overcoat which was unbuttoned and it made it possible for me to see the clothing. He was having a rifle which was pointed towards the shack. Even though he was wearing a Balaclava, his face was fully visible and I could clearly see that he is a White person. I then ran back into the shack and called Pule." So this could not have been the same person you have seen, is that correct? MS M MOLETE I do not know because Florence was at another point and that's her statement. CHAIRPERSON Can you still - when you called Florence into the bedroom can you still remember where she was? MS M MOLETE She was in the kitchen. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You wouldn't know what she was doing, would you, at the time? MS M MOLETE I said she was preparing to sleep, as visitors at her house she decided to move to the kitchen and sleep there. CHAIRPERSON Okay and did she respond to your call? MS M MOLETE We did not shout, I was whispering. I said to her come and see, they are attacking Pule. That is when they were breaking this door as she tried to come to me. CHAIRPERSON I see. MR STRYDOM And lastly I want to put to you something, I want also to put to you what Poleng Mnisi said in her statement, that's the one after Florence's statement, Florence Molete's statement, Poleng Mnisi on the third page of that statement and we know now she was in a house just opposite yours and she stated on page three of her statement "During the attack I did not see nor hear any vehicles. No one was injured in my family." And then she went further to describe the damage. Now I just want to put to you that she didn't see the vehicles and she was very close to your house nor heard. Let me ask this way, apart from seeing ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON She was at house number 19, was it? MR STRYDOM Yes. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR LAX Just one other thing Mr Strydom, you used the plural of vehicle, the statements singular, be that as it may. MR STRYDOM Yes it is. Did you at any stage hear any vehicles apart from seeing them, or apart from seeing it? MS M MOLETE I'm not aware of Puleng's statement. I'm much aware of my statement now you are referring me to Jeanette's statement. MR STRYDOM No, what I'm asking you now is did you hear a vehicle during the attack or just thereafter or before? MS M MOLETE No, I never heard a vehicle. MR STRYDOM When you came out of the hospital did you lay a charge in relation to the injuries you sustained and Mita sustained? MS M MOLETE I did not lay a charge. MR STRYDOM Did you give a statement to the peace desk in Boipatong and told them what happened to you and Mita? MS M MOLETE I'm not sure to which body you are referring to, I do not understand the peace desk you are referring to. MR STRYDOM Do you know what the Independent Board of Enquiry is? MS M MOLETE No, I do not understand. MR STRYDOM Let me just put it this way, apart from the time you gave the statement to the police you never gave any other person a statement, you never told your story what you saw about the police vehicles and about the Whites to any person that took a statement from you? MS M MOLETE I cannot recall at that time. MR STRYDOM Because if I look at the statement it appears the first time you told a person that took a statement about White people being involved was about eight months after the attack or nine months? CHAIRPERSON Where would that occur? MR STRYDOM That's the date of the first statement. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR STRYDOM What I want to ask you isn't it something you made up at a later stage for reasons known only to you, that White people were involved in the attack? CHAIRPERSON I'm not too sure what is the basis of the proposition because as I understand it this is the very first statement that she made to the police, there is nothing which indicates at least of the record that she had made a previous statement in which no mention of the police is made so once it is accepted that the very first statement she made she mentioned the police, how does one jump from that and conclude that it is something she made up at a later stage. MR STRYDOM Maybe I'll just put it a different way. CHAIRPERSON If she made it up, she must have made it up from the very beginning of the first statement that she made to the police? MR STRYDOM Yes, but she never made a statement as far as we know at this stage at an earlier time, but nine months thereafter she said that White people were also involved. CHAIRPERSON Yes but do we know what statement she made earlier on? MR STRYDOM Well that's what I asked her. Did you make a statement to any other person before the first statement you made to the police in stating that you saw White people? MS M MOLETE There is no previous statement that I made except the one I made to Mr Steenkamp. CHAIRPERSON Let's put it this way, we know that she made a statement to the police. Is that right, do you confirm that? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Apart from those statements that you made to the police, prior to that did you make any statements to any person as far as you can recall? MS M MOLETE The statement I made was the recent one except this one as we came to the Truth Commission and there's no way that I made a statement before this one. CHAIRPERSON Prior to making statements to the police you have not made any other statement? MS M MOLETE I have not done so except when I went for the Truth Commission. CHAIRPERSON Yes and at the Truth Commission did you give evidence? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON The next person is you, Mr Lowies. MR LOWIES Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We were supposed to have taken a break at about 3 o'clock but unfortunately we had to break much earlier so shall we take a short break now until about 10 past 4? MR LOWIES I'd appreciate, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Right. Ms Molete, I understand from your earlier evidence that you do not feel, well that you still have some ailment? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Whenever you feel that for some reason you cannot continue giving evidence, that you need a break, would you indicate to us? MS M MOLETE Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well, we will take a short adjournment and we'll come back at 10 past 4. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Ms Molete, may I remind you that you're still under oath? MIRIAM MOLETE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Lowies? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOWIES Is it possible Mrs Molete that the person who assaulted you could have been an Albino? MS M MOLETE No, it was a White person. MR LOWIES Why do you exclude the possibility that the person could have been an Albino? MS M MOLETE He did not look like an Albino. MR LOWIES Now how does he differ from an Albino? MS M MOLETE I do not know, Sir. MR LOWIES Is it not so that the only part that you according to you saw was his nose which could mean that he could have been a coloured for that matter as well, a coloured person with a light complexion? MS M MOLETE It was not only the nose that I could see, I also mentioned the eyes. MR LOWIES And if you had a look at the eyes and the nose could he have been an Albino or a Coloured person? MS M MOLETE Coloured people have brown eyes. MR LOWIES Now can you describe the opening of this Balaclava? MS M MOLETE I said the person who attacked me, the eyes and the nose were not concealed. MR LOWIES Now what I want to know from you was just in this Balaclava were there just two holes for the eyes and the hole for the nose or was the whole Balaclava open? MS M MOLETE There were two circles around the eye area and I think at the nose it was not covered. I did not see the witness pointing the nose or not. Round the eyes he had circles on the Balaclava and she's pointing around the nose where it was not concealed or the Balaclava did not conceal the nose. CHAIRPERSON Now was there just an opening for the nose? MS M MOLETE Yes. MR LOWIES So it's not as if the whole face - sorry, the whole area where the eyes and the nose are were open with a square? Two holes and a hole for a nose, in actual fact three holes in the Balaclava, correct? MS M MOLETE That is how I saw it. MR LOWIES And there was no attempt made to paint this part of the nose black according to your observation? MS M MOLETE No, on that score I do not know. CHAIRPERSON The part of the nose that you saw was not painted black? MS M MOLETE I said it was not painted because I could see this was a White person. MR LOWIES The two people in the camouflage uniforms that you described, you could see their faces, yes or no? MS M MOLETE Yes. MR LOWIES According to Mr Nosenga the people who he saw who were White had their faces painted. Now these people that you saw and that were White on your version, did they have painted faces? I'm not talking about the attacker now, I'm talking about the other two chaps. MS M MOLETE Their faces were not painted. MR LOWIES Can you describe the caps that they wore? MS M MOLETE They were camouflage type caps and the clothing went along with the caps, looked much the same as the caps. MR LOWIES And you say what they were wearing was overalls, not a shirt and a pair of trousers? MS M MOLETE Their clothing looked like overalls, these that you would have a belt around your waist and they had caps. MR LOWIES Now were these peak caps, in other words, that come out to the front or was it more like a beret such as you are wearing? MS M MOLETE Those were caps not berets, they never look anything like berets. MR LOWIES Your attacker, the one that stabbed you, what was the colour of his Balaclava? MS M MOLETE I did say that I do not know the colour to the Balaclava. MR LOWIES Yet you could see that his eyes were blue? MS M MOLETE I did see the eyes because the Apollo light was cursed into the house and the moonlight and this light next to the table. MR LOWIES ...(inaudible) light next to the table? MS M MOLETE Paraffin light. MR LOWIES If the paraffin light was not on, would you still have been able to see his eyes, the colour of his eyes? MS M MOLETE No. MR LOWIES Now when did you observe him for the first time. Let me explain what I mean. According to you the person stabbed you in the eye with a sharp object. At that stage were you already aware of the fact that he was a White person, as you say? MS M MOLETE I was aware that he was a White person before he stabbed me with a sharpened instrument. MR LOWIES What weapons did this person carry? MS M MOLETE I saw the person who attacked me, a panga he was carrying and a sharpened instrument, so called Umjamenjo. MR STRYDOM In both hands? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM What is the length of the sharpened object, could you just indicate to us? MS M MOLETE I cannot estimate the length and I won't be correct because I saw a person stabbing me. If I did not stab backwards he would have poked out my eye. MR LOWIES No but can't you indicate to us the length with your hands? CHAIRPERSON Is that the length of the? MR LOWIES The sharpened object. CHAIRPERSON Umjamenjo. Yes. MR LOWIES Thank you Chair. MS M MOLETE No Sir, I would not know how other Umjamenjo's lengths are. MR LAX Sorry, Mrs Molete, you're being asked to - not about other Umjamenjos, you're being asked about this particular one that stabbed you. If you can't remember that's fine but you're not been asked about other ones, you're being asked about this one. MS M MOLETE I cannot estimate it's length, Sir. MR LOWIES Is there a specific reason why you can't? Didn't you see properly or what is the reason? MS M MOLETE I could see but I tried to protect myself with my hand. CHAIRPERSON Is the position that because you were trying to protect yourself from this onslaught, you didn't pay much attention to this Umjamenjo so as to be able to give us the size of the blade or the Umjamenjo itself? MS M MOLETE That is correct and I thank you for the question you've raised. MR STRYDOM When you saw the person entering the premises or your shack with these weapons, were you afraid? MS M MOLETE I was not that afraid. MR STRYDOM Now obviously when you saw him you had to make sure whether he was in possession of a weapon, not so? MS M MOLETE Please repeat the question? MR LOWIES When you saw the person obviously you had to make sure whether he had weapons, not so, whether he was carrying weapons with him? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR LOWIES And even at that stage you were not able to discern what the length of this weapon was, the sharpened object? MS M MOLETE I have already stated my answer. MR LOWIES And I take it you did not have much time to look at this person and the weapons he was carrying, not so? MS M MOLETE You are correct. MR LOWIES All in all, how long would you say were you in the presence of this person? MS M MOLETE It was a few seconds or minutes. MR LOWIES Now wasn't there a situation where somebody else tried to grab the child from you and I'm referring to Mita? MS M MOLETE There was nobody else, it was myself and the attacker alone. The rest I did not see. Her father was already taken out, they had taken him out. MR LOWIES And Florence, at that stage? MS M MOLETE She was busy with her attackers also. MR LOWIES Because Florence says in her statement, it's the eleventh page, Mr Chairman, paragraph 4, approximately in the middle thereof "I managed to reach Miriam who was having Mita in her arms. At the time when I was to take Mita, one of the attackers chopped me on the head with a panga." Did this not happen? MS M MOLETE That never happened to me, I am not aware of the facts contained in Florence's statement. MR LOWIES And then she goes on to state "Miriam cried that her child Mita was killed." Is that correct? MS M MOLETE That is not correct. MR LOWIES Did you not cry when your child was hacked by this person? MS M MOLETE At the time he stabbed me I did not cry, I cried afterwards as we went to the dumping place and after the child had fainted. MR LOWIES Did you not shout at all at that stage when the child was injured? MS M MOLETE I did not shout, I was trying to save her life. MR LOWIES And at that stage when the child was hacked and when you got injured on your thumb as you described, Florence was not in your immediate vicinity, on your version? MS M MOLETE Sir, I could not see her, I was trying to help my daughter and myself also. CHAIRPERSON But you don't know exactly where she was at the time? MS M MOLETE She was busy with her attackers. I was right at the door, that is where my fight ended, at the door. CHAIRPERSON And where was Florence with her attackers? MS M MOLETE She was right there in the kitchen, to watch the door as you move out of the house, she was not next to me. MR LOWIES But there was never a situation whereby she attempted to grab the child or take the child from you and then you were hacked or the child was hacked by this person? MS M MOLETE The child was hacked in my hands not in Florence's arms. MR LOWIES No, that's not the question, she didn't even try to take the child from you, that's what I'm asking? MS M MOLETE No. MR LOWIES Did you at any stage become hysterical? MS M MOLETE Since the 17th I've been like that, the very day or night of the attack. MR LOWIES I don't follow, if could just explain? Do you know what hysterical means? Crying, sobbing, uncontrollably. MS M MOLETE That was the situation when I came from hospital. MR LOWIES Not on the night of the attack? MS M MOLETE The day of the attack I went to the hospital after we were attacked. I was there until I was discharged, that is when now my problems began and then I was disturbed. MR LOWIES What do you mean disturbed? CHAIRPERSON I am told that what was conveyed to her by way of interpretation is that she was deeply disturbed or something to that effect. INTERPRETER Chairperson, Mr Lowies stated that was she not hysterical, I therefore interpreted that to mean she was deeply disturbed as you say seSotho, I said ...(indistinct). CHAIRPERSON I think Mr Lowies has just indicated what he means by hysterical, that is crying uncontrollably, do you understand that Mr Interpreter, as opposed to being deeply disturbed? INTERPRETER Yes I did get that and I corrected that version of the question. MS M MOLETE I do not understand whether he means on that day or thereafter? MR BERGER Chairperson, the witness also said that after she left the hospital, my instructions are that she was suffering from nerves and but that wasn't what - I was going to object to the depth of this cross-examination and I wonder whether it's strictly necessary to go to such depth to prove a point that is not readily apparent to me. Perhaps if my learned friend can put the point rather than going to these depths it might save the witness some anguish. CHAIRPERSON Well Mr Berger, you've got to understand that Mr Lowies has instructions. It is unfortunate but these matters ought to be probed to the extent that there might be relevant and issues of credibility. MR BERGER Chairperson, I do understand that and that's why my hand has been sitting here and I haven't objected because I understand this. CHAIRPERSON Let's clarify this aspect first, let's go back to this question whether she cried uncontrollably, you know, after this incident. CHAIRPERSON Could you ask the question, Mr Berger? MR LOWIES Chair sorry, I have to apologise, I did not hear you. CHAIRPERSON We now know that the - what was conveyed to her was not accurately conveyed to her. MR LOWIES I'll go through the process again with your permission. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LOWIES Ma'am, the night of the incident there at the scene, did you cry uncontrollably or sob uncontrollably because of the fear and because of the brutalness of the attack? MS M MOLETE No, that is not correct. MR LOWIES However, if I do understand you correctly that as a result of the attack you now suffer from nerves? MS M MOLETE That is so. MR LOWIES Does that have an influence on your recollection as to what happened on that night? MS M MOLETE It is not always that the same happens, this only comes out when we have hearings of this matter or if it happens that I look back at my life since 1992 to date. MR LOWIES Yes but my question is, the fact that you suffer from your nerves and that you are well as you testified earlier on, does that have an influence on your ability to recall the incidents on that night? Sorry to have to ask you this. MS M MOLETE I do not understand your question. MR LOWIES The question is this, you've told us that when you testified about these events that occurred to you, you suffer from the nerves amongst other things. Okay, what counsel wants to find out, the nerves that you suffer from, does that effect your ability to recall the events? MS M MOLETE No, they do not. MR LOWIES We've heard your evidence earlier on when cross-examined by Mr Strydom next to me that you said that at the time when the statements were taken you were sick. Did you refer to your nerves, the nerve situation that you have? MS M MOLETE I said since this incident I have been an ill person, I've got a heart situation at the moment. CHAIRPERSON What you are being asked is this, you know, when you were asked about the statements that you made to the police, you mentioned amongst other things that when this statement was taken you were sick. Do you recall that? MS M MOLETE Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON Now what counsel wants to find out, were you referring to the nerves that you suffer from amongst other things? MS M MOLETE Yes, I was referring to the nerves. MR LOWIES When Mr Strydom cross-examined you regarding the contents of the written statement, he explained that when the statement was written, I was sick. In the process arguing that you could not think properly from the gist of your answer at that stage, is that not correct? MR BERGER No, that's not what the witness said. CHAIRPERSON What did she say? MR BERGER She said she was sick, she didn't elaborate on it, as my learned friend has. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lowies? MR LOWIES Chairman, that was used as a reason why she could not properly recall what happened there and could not properly relate to the police what happened there which is just another word of stating what I have - another manner in stating in what I have just stated. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon? MR LOWIES Which is just another way, Chairman, of stating what I have put to her, but I can rephrase the question. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LOWIES You see, ma'am, when you specifically mentioned this and I've got a quote here, when the statement was written "I was sick", you did so in reply to questions put by Mr Strydom regarding differences and omissions in your statement to the police. My question therefore is the following, did your illness, your nerves, have an effect at the time or had it an effect at the time when the statement was taken by the police? MS M MOLETE No. MR LOWIES So when these statements that Mr Strydom referred you to were taken, you were in the same position as you are today, regarding the recollection of what happened on the night of the incident, correct? MS M MOLETE Are you referring to the day I gave in the statements to the police? MR LOWIES Ja, the days, ja. MS M MOLETE I was not that ill that I could not speak, I was able to walk as is the situation today. MR LOWIES And your recollection was the same more or less as it is today, that's what I'm trying to find out. MS M MOLETE Well, I wouldn't know on that one, no it wouldn't be the same. CHAIRPERSON Let me put it to you this way, you will tell us whether that's true or not. As far as you are aware, cast it in your mind back at a time when you gave the statement in to the police, as far as you are aware, was there anything which effected your ability to recall the events that took place on the 17th June? MS M MOLETE That is so, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Okay, what is it? MS M MOLETE The ability not to fend for myself because my left hand is the one that I use. INTERPRETER Chairperson, I was asking her to repeat what she said earlier, I missed that one also. She said something about her left hand being her right hand but I wanted to get the accurate one. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS M MOLETE I said my hand, my left hand is the one I use and my child is confined to a wheelchair. She's growing up, I cannot hold her up like the time I used to and all this in my mind effects my life and that the father who used to fend for her is now dead. CHAIRPERSON Now did all of this effect your ability to recall the events? MS M MOLETE Like Mr Lowies asked me those were all the things that effected my life that I cannot prosper or fend for myself, those are the things. MR LAX I'm still unclear about the way you've answered these questions. You're talking about things that have effected your life and your future. What you're being asked is this, these terrible things that have happened to you and this experience that happened to you that has left you with nerves and other ailments, has that effected the way you are able to tell the story, the way you're able to remember what happened on that night in any way? That's what you're being asked, do you understand? MS M MOLETE Yes I do. No, they are not. MR LAX Thank you Mr Lowies. MR LOWIES Thank you Mr Lax. So ma'am, it did not effect you then when you made the statements to the police and it does not effect you here today to tell the story and remember the events? MS M MOLETE That is so. MR LOWIES So if you said to Mr Strydom that the reason why you omitted certain items and why there are discrepancies in your statements and your evidence today and you blame that on your illness, that should not be read as such? MR BERGER Chairperson, she did not say that, in fact her evidence was to the contrary, she said "I did say those things but the interpreter was speaking Sepedi and I was speaking SeTswana and I don't know it wasn't recorded." That was her evidence. CHAIRPERSON There are some other occasions where reference was made by her to the effect that when she gave the statement she was sick. MR BERGER Yes but ...(intervention) MR LOWIES Your answer? MS M MOLETE May you please repeat the question, Sir? MR LOWIES On at least two or three occasions you stated to Mr Strydom the reason for certain omissions were as a result of your sickness and the omissions, I refer to the omissions in the statements. CHAIRPERSON It did not say it directly as you're putting it. Perhaps what you should do is maybe her ask her whether is that what she was suggesting? MR LOWIES That's it Chair, that's actually how it should be read, my question should be read. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR LOWIES Were you suggesting to Mr Strydom that your illness had an effect on your ability to tell your version of the events on the night of the attack to the police? MS M MOLETE No, I did not say so. MR LOWIES Okay. Now these people that you've described as the White people, did they wear headbands? MS M MOLETE No, Sir. MR LOWIES Now besides them, did everybody else on what you saw that night, wear headbands or were there other people that you saw without headbands? MS M MOLETE I did not see them all, those that I'd seen had red headbands and white headbands. MR LOWIES Now do you know the difference - sorry Chair? CHAIRPERSON I didn't quite catch the answer to the last question. MR LAX Those that she saw had red headbands or white headbands. She didn't see all of them but those that she did see ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Okay, let's put the question again. Just put the question again? MR LOWIES Thank you. Now, besides these White people that you described, did everybody else that you saw that night wear headbands? MS M MOLETE Those who were at my sister's place they had red and white headbands. MR LOWIES All of them except the Whites, as you say? MS M MOLETE Those that I have seen, Sir. MR LOWIES Yes testified that you requested Mr Kekana to speak SeTswana? CHAIRPERSON Just a minute, by "my sister's place" you're referring to Florence's house? MS M MOLETE As I peeped through this place they were at Jeanette's place number 19, not 17. CHAIRPERSON So the persons that you saw who had either red or white bands, they were at Poleng's place? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Alright, yes. MR LOWIES Thank you Chair. And the people that you saw at the place where you were attacked except for the three people that you say were Whites, did they wear headbands? MS M MOLETE I say so. MR LOWIES Now to come to Mr Kekana, why did you request him to speak SeTswana? MS M MOLETE It is because I can understand SeTswana, that's my husband's first language. However, I cannot understand properly Sepedi therefore I said to them if he can not speak SeSotho, better speak SeTswana for me to understand. MR LOWIES So Kekana was speaking Sepedi? MS M MOLETE He mixed languages. MR LOWIES Which languages? MS M MOLETE He spoke in SeTswana and his SeSotho was not that fluent and he leaned much to Sepedi language. MR LOWIES Sorry, I couldn't catch the last part? MS M MOLETE He leaned much more to Sepedi in his speech. CHAIRPERSON So Mr Kekana spoke a mix of SeTswana and Sepedi? MS M MOLETE His SeSotho was not fluent, you could hear that his language leaned much more to Sepedi. MR LOWIES But in your statement it reads at page 10, the 10th page, your first statement, said that it was a statement in Sotho? Now did you speak Sotho with each other as reflected in the statement? MS M MOLETE Yes I spoke in SeSotho. MR LOWIES Oh, my mistake, I'm at page ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON As I understand what you're saying, just correct me if I'm wrong, you spoke to Kekana in SeSotho, is that right? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON But he could not speak fluent Sotho? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON His was a mixture of SeTswana and Pedi but there was more Pedi to it than Sotho? MS M MOLETE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Okay and that is why you then you ask if he could speak SeTswana? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR LOWIES I have to just correct a question that I put to you. On the 29th page, your first statement, it states that the statement was taken in SeSotho? First sentence, states in SeSotho under oath, page 29 of the bundle. So it appears to me that both of you spoke in SeSotho? MR LAX No, she speaks SeSotho, that's what it states. MR LOWIES Okay. CHAIRPERSON The witness has just explained how this occurred. They were supposed to Sotho as I understand it. Mr Kekana was not fluent in SeSotho, he spoke a mixture of Tswana and Pedi but there was more Pedi than there was Tswana which is why she then requested him to speak in Tswana. MR LOWIES Thank you Chair. But you were telling him what happened on the night, not he telling you? MS M MOLETE That is correct, Sir. MR LOWIES So he was actually just asking you questions to get your version of what happened, is that correct? MS M MOLETE May you please repeat the question please? MR LOWIES So he actually just asked you questions as to what happened and then you related to him what was the situation and what transpired that night? MS M MOLETE That is correct. MR LOWIES And do I then understand correctly, you couldn't understand his questions to you? CHAIRPERSON When did she say she didn't understand the questions? MR LOWIES She did not say that. CHAIRPERSON She did not say? Then what are putting. MR LOWIES She said - sorry Chairman, the way I had it is the following, she said that he was only asking her questions to relate to him what happened, therefore the conclusion, this is the question, that she did not understand his questions. I'm asking her that, because her version is she only asked the questions as to what happened. CHAIRPERSON I can't understand, I mean how do you come to that conclusion in light of her direct evidence to the effect that this man spoke in Tswana and Sepedi and a little bit of Sotho? MR LOWIES I'll leave it at that. CHAIRPERSON Well unless there is something to that that I can't see? MR LOWIES I'll retract the question, Chair. Now according to this statement, the first statement, you acknowledged that you knew and understand the contents of this whole statement? CHAIRPERSON Which statement is this? MR LOWIES Page 29, the first statement. CHAIRPERSON The first statement, yes. MR LOWIES Do you deny that this happened? CHAIRPERSON You've just read to her what appears on the statement and what you've read is a certificate wherein she says she understands the contents of the statement and acknowledges, now the question? MR LOWIES The question is, in the light of this statement by Kekana, where it appears from the document that you have acknowledged that you know and understand the contents of this declaration, did something like this happen, in other words did Kekana ask you do you know and understand the contents of this declaration? MS M MOLETE After I have gained the statement he never read it to me. MR LOWIES And he didn't ask you either? Do you understand the statement, do you acknowledge that you know what is in the statement, words to that effect? MS M MOLETE I cannot remember, Sir. MR LOWIES Did he ask you to take the oath? MS M MOLETE What do you mean, Sir? MR LOWIES Whether you have any objection to the taking of the oath and whether you consider it as binding on your conscience and to say so help me God? MS M MOLETE That was never stated to us. MR LOWIES Now Chairman, my attention is drawn to the time, I don't know whether it's an appropriate time ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON How far are you from finishing this witness? MR LOWIES It's difficult to say, I'd say 10, 15 minutes. CHAIRPERSON If we could, maybe we should break at this stage, Mr Lowies? MR LOWIES I'd appreciate it Chairman because I have a problem with the witness that I want to consult with but again I'm in your hands. CHAIRPERSON No, we are in your hands. If you finish early, if you don't finish, we don't go. Alright but I think it's been a fairly long day. Okay very well, we will adjourn at this stage. You will reconvene at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. Ms Molete, would you make sure that you are here by 9 o'clock tomorrow morning? MS M MOLETE I will be here Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, just before the adjournment, I indicated to you Chairman that tomorrow I have a problem, I'll see if I can come during the course of the day but there will be - Mr Fredrech will be here for me. Thanks. CHAIRPERSON Who else will be absent tomorrow? No one? Very well. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS