amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-20 VANDERBIJLPARK 14 FLORENCE MOLETE - WITNESS BOIPATONG MASSACRE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53388&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050321_vbp_990520vb.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON We now know that starting at half past eight is not impossible. Maybe next time we will try half past seven. MS TANZER Mr Chair, just before you proceed, I have to request to leave early today, at about - early meaning four o'clock because of religious holidays that start early this evening. I have arranged for somebody to be here tomorrow in my place, I don't know if my absence would have been noted anyway, but somebody will be here, so if you don't mind, I will be leaving at around four o'clock, quarter past four. CHAIRPERSON It is not a question of me not minding, it is the client that your represent, somebody has to take ... MS TANZER As I said I have arranged for somebody to be here tomorrow for his representation. CHAIRPERSON Yes. FLORENCE MOLETE (still under oath) MR BERGER Mr Chairman, before my learned friend, Mr Strydom continues, Chairperson, can I just place on record that this morning I spent some time with Ms Molete, again explaining to her the purpose of my learned friend's questions, the purpose of putting versions, the purpose of comparing her statements, what she said to the Police, what she said to Judge Goldstone, what she said in her evidence in chief. I went through all of that and explained to her the purpose so that hopefully she will be in a better position to answer questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, indeed we are indebted to you Mr Berger, thank you. Who led her by the way in chief? MR BERGER I did. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well, yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM (continued) Thank you Chair. Yesterday I referred you to page 259 of the testimony taken at the Goldstone Commission and I wanted to ask you a question, I just tried to set the background first, I am not going to repeat that, but for saying that you were asked about the person that attacked Mita whilst Miriam was holding her. Then the question was asked "who is that one of the men", was it a white person or a black person? You said it was a white person. Why did you state at the hearings at the Goldstone Commission that the person that hacked Mita was a white person? MS F MOLETE I cannot remember that. CHAIRPERSON What is it that you cannot remember, is it whether you said what has been read to you? MS F MOLETE This statements were many, now I do not remember at present what I stated in the other statements. MR STRYDOM I asked you yesterday if you saw that a white person was the person involved in the assault on Mita and Miriam, that is one thing you would have remembered, isn't that so? CHAIRPERSON I think - Ms Molete, I think what Counsel wants you to explain if you can, is that I gather from him in your evidence before us, you did not mention that the child was hacked by white men, is that right? MR STRYDOM Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Whereas when you testified at the Goldstone hearing, you testified that the person who hacked the child was a white man. Do you understand that? Do you understand what he is trying you to explain? MS F MOLETE I did understand his question, my answer is I cannot remember at present ... MR STRYDOM Can't you remember what you said at the Goldstone Commission, can't you remember what happened during the attack when Miriam and Mita was injured? MS F MOLETE This is an incident that took place in 1992, I am an old person, I do not remember a thing that took place a long time ago, at present. MR STRYDOM What you are in fact saying is that some things you can remember, some things you can't remember? MS F MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM Do you remember any one of the attackers during the attack said something that sounded to you like the Zulu of a white person? A white person speaking Zulu? MS F MOLETE I cannot remember well sir, because I am suffering from stress and I am still healing my wounds. MR STRYDOM I want to put to you then, that you can't remember what happened in Pretoria when you went there after you had been subpoenaed to come to Pretoria as well. MS F MOLETE I have never been summoned to Pretoria regarding a case. MR STRYDOM We will get to that. Although you can't remember that you heard - let me sort out my papers here - you testified on page 256 of the transcript of the Goldstone Commission, firstly your statement was put to you, paragraph 8 of your statement that was put to you, reads as follows "... I started shouting for Puleng, someone outside said in Zulu 'the dog is dead'. He spoke Zulu with a white accent." Do you remember that was in your statement, that was presented at the Goldstone Commission? MS F MOLETE I say to you sir, a lot of things I cannot remember. As an older person, an old person, I most of the times pray, trying to work off these things. CHAIRPERSON You are at page 256. MR STRYDOM Yes you stated now that you can't remember, but I will just put to you what was then asked to you and your answer "... can you perhaps elaborate on that? How do you know when a white person speaks Zulu?" Then your answer was - "... when a white person learns to speak Zulu, you can tell. He does not speak quite well Zulu." So clearly what you wanted to say there is that you gathered at that stage, during the attack that the person that said "the dog is dead", in Zulu, was a white person. Now you can't remember anything about that, is that what you say? MS F MOLETE I stated to this honourable hearing that two white persons were involved in the attack at my house, this happened to me. Most incidents that took place, I now at the moment, do not know of them. I am now an old person. MR STRYDOM Yes, let's move on. After the attack on you, you left the shack and eventually went to the dumping ground, is that right MS F MOLETE Yes sir. MR STRYDOM In your evidence in chief you said that you saw a big vehicle, a Police vehicle. At what stage was that, before you went to the dumping ground or after you returned? MS F MOLETE When I came back from the dumping ground, whilst I was up there at the dumping ground. MR LAX Sorry, can I just clarify something here Mr Strydom, the way the answer has been interpreted to us, it is contradictory in itself. On the one hand you saw it when you came back from the dumping ground, on the other hand you saw it when you were at the dumping ground? Can you just clarify this for us please? MS F MOLETE Up there at Matiki. MR LAX At the dumping ground, Matiki? MS F MOLETE Yes, we refer to it as Matiki. MR LAX You saw this vehicle when you were at the dumping ground, is that what you are saying? MS F MOLETE Yes sir. MR STRYDOM How many vehicles did you see? MS F MOLETE One vehicle. MR STRYDOM In your evidence in chief, you said that that vehicle, you thought it was entering Moakare Street, is that right? Is that correct, the vehicle you saw? MS F MOLETE Senqu or Seqoqone Street. ADV SIGODI Is she asking a question or is she stating that it was Senqu or Seqoqone Street? I didn't get it quite well. Where was this vehicle when you saw it? MS F MOLETE Matiki is a bit far from Tserela township, the older township of Tserela. I saw this from a distance, I was up there when I saw this. MR STRYDOM This Matiki is it between - sorry, I've got it wrong - Matiki you have told us already is the dumping ground, is if you look at Exhibit J towards the right of Slovo Park? MR BERGER The witness is pointing slightly to the right of Slovo Park, towards the bottom of the page, I don't know if that has any significance. MR STRYDOM Maybe the witness can indicate in line with which street would you say the dumping ground is, I am referring to streets in Boipatong? For instance would it be in line with Baralong, Majola, Bapedi or which street? MR BERGER Somewhere to the right of Bapedi and Majola Streets, to the right of Bakwena. CHAIRPERSON Is there any, you see if you look at what is depicted as Slovo Park, the little squares, you've got the caravan there, you've got right at the very bottom of those squares, the very last one on the right, which is marked in black, can you see that, which is coloured in black, can you see that, in relation to that, is there any indication where it is? MR BERGER Yes Chair, Ms Molete has indicated the dumping ground to the east of Slovo Park, running at an angle, starting towards Mosheshe Street and moving eastwards at an angle, passed Bapedi Street somewhere between the middle of, halfway between Bapedi and Batswana. If you want, I can show you what she has indicated. CHAIRPERSON Will it be behind, beyond Slovo Park? MR BERGER It is there. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. MR BERGER It is running at an angle. CHAIRPERSON Yes, okay. MR BERGER Perhaps I can just hand it to you. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Unfortunately we don't have the space here to indicate, you can only indicate it on the table. Yes very well. MR STRYDOM Ms Molete, if you follow a direct line from your house in an easterly direction, you will get to the dumping ground? MR BERGER Ms Molete is indicating that her shack is not near where number 15 has been marked, but if you come out of Bapedi towards Slovo Park and turn right, in other words go south, it is that shack just off Bakwena Street. MR STRYDOM I think that shack has been marked 17 on my map. MR BERGER Oh, not on mine. MR STRYDOM The one, it is the first one next to Bakwena Street. MR BERGER Yes. MR STRYDOM Yes, so the question is really ... MR BERGER But she has also indicated the route that she took to the dumping ground, so perhaps she can speak for herself. CHAIRPERSON Let me just make it clear, there is one here that is marked 97, will that be the one Mr Berger? MR BERGER No Chairperson, if one moves to the left from 97, there is one marked 81 and then to the left of that, there is one almost bordering on Bakwena Street. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that is right. MR BERGER It is that one that has been indicated as number 17. CHAIRPERSON Okay, which is in line with 81? MR BERGER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay. So would that be number 17? MR BERGER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR STRYDOM The question is from your house, your shack, I just want to know which route did you follow to get to the dumping ground, did you go directly, did you walk straight to the dumping ground or did you move downwards or upwards or what did you do? MR BERGER Ms Molete is going to mark on my map. Chairperson, it has been indicated on my map in red, she went south, next to Bakwena Street and then worked her way through the shacks until she got to the dumping ground and then moved, you will see the arrows moving northwards, in a north easterly direction up to a certain point where the arrows stops. There are two arrows. MR STRYDOM Just to get clarity, that is the route you followed from your house to the dumping ground? MS F MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM You didn't go into any houses on your way there? MS F MOLETE Mr Strydom, from my house when I turned at the corner, I got to Mrs Agnes. I entered Agnes' place. MR STRYDOM Is that Agnes Malindi? MS F MOLETE That is correct. MR BERGER Sorry, none of that was interpreted? Sorry, I never heard. MR STRYDOM You stopped by at Agnes Malindi's place, what did you do there, for what purpose? MS F MOLETE I observed that the windows were broken, I got in and left, running away. MR STRYDOM So the purpose was just to observe what was done at that shack by the attackers? MS F MOLETE I do not know how to answer you sir. MR STRYDOM You said that you went to the shack of Agnes on your way. All I want to enquire was there a purpose or why did you stop there, why didn't you go straight to the dumping ground, that is what I want to know. If you can't remember, say so. MS F MOLETE That is along the route, as I ran away, I was looking for them, so that we all run away because it was bad at that time. MR STRYDOM So it is not a situation that after attackers had left your shack, you went with Miriam to your sister's shack which is next door to yours? MS F MOLETE We got into Puleng's shack and we didn't take a minute there and I left saying that I am going to look for an ambulance. I left them there. MR STRYDOM Ms Molete, I just asked you to tell me if you stopped at any shacks and you didn't mention that. Why didn't you mention it when I asked you a moment ago and you said you stopped at Agnes' shack, why didn't you say you stopped at Puleng's shack as well? MS F MOLETE Your question was not direct, it was a bit difficult. MR STRYDOM Did you leave your shack after the attack with Miriam and Mita, to your sister's shack or not? MS F MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM From the rubbish dump, you said that you could see down Bapedi Street, and you saw the Police vehicle? MS F MOLETE That is correct sir. MR STRYDOM In your evidence in chief you said if my note is correct, "as I looked back, I saw the Police vehicle", is that correct? You looked back from the rubbish dump? MS F MOLETE That is correct. MR STRYDOM And then you said in your evidence when Mr Berger asked you questions, that you think that you saw the vehicle enter Senqu or Moakare Street, Moakare Street was definitely mentioned. Why do you leave that out now? MS F MOLETE I do not remember what I said sir. MR STRYDOM Why do you say Seqoqone Street now? Why didn't you mention Seqoqone Street yesterday when you testified, sorry the day before yesterday? MS F MOLETE I do not remember the day before yesterday's answers, your answers has been many so far and I have explained that I suffer from stress. INTERPRETER Or nerves as she says. MR STRYDOM the reason why I am asking you this, you see at the Goldstone Commission your statement which you have confirmed, reads as follows "... from the rubbish dump ..." that is on page 261 - "... I could see two casspirs turning in Seqoqone Street and moving in a northerly direction. At this stage the attackers were still at Bakwena Street, they were still breaking windows and attacking houses. I did not see the casspirs taking any action." Today for the first time you also say Seqoqone Street? Did you have an opportunity to look at your evidence of the Goldstone Commission at any stage? MS F MOLETE No sir. MR STRYDOM It seems to me that at the Goldstone Commission you were quite certain that it was Seqoqone Street because you didn't mention any one of the other streets, is that correct? MS F MOLETE I have stated that there were many statements, I am old, I cannot remember well and I plead that God helps me to forget the incident that took place on myself. MR STRYDOM Why did you say there that you saw two casspirs, at this Committee you said that you saw one? MS F MOLETE I have stated that I do not remember, Mr Strydom. This incident happened in 1992, it has been years now. MR STRYDOM But can you now remember that you saw any casspirs? MS F MOLETE Yes sir. MR STRYDOM You see at the Goldstone Commission on page 261, you even pointed out on a photo or a map they had there, the route these two casspirs followed, so at that stage it seems to me that you were quite clear about your case or your evidence? MR BERGER Chairperson, the witness has explained it is seven years ago and she has forgotten things, she has said that several times now. CHAIRPERSON I don't know what this exercise will lead up to, because what we are getting from the witness is that she can't recall what she said then and she can't remember the things that she saw. MR STRYDOM I will leave it at that, I will leave it for argument. CHAIRPERSON Yes, indeed. MR STRYDOM You gave evidence what happened when you went to Pretoria and it seems to me as far as that portion of your evidence is concerned, you are quite clear what happened in Pretoria, is that so? MS F MOLETE May you please elaborate on the question please. MR STRYDOM In your evidence in chief you said that you went to Pretoria after you received certain letters and then you gave evidence of what happened when you got there, who met you, what food was given to you and the rest, I am not going to repeat everything, but it seems to me and I am asking you, is your memory clear as to what happened when you went to Pretoria on that specific day? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR STRYDOM And that also happened about five years ago, is that right? MS F MOLETE I do not know the year sir. MR STRYDOM I put it to you it was during February 1994. MS F MOLETE I am thankful to hear the date. MR STRYDOM You said that you and some of the other people, received letters. Can you give any description of that letter you received or not? Can you give a description of the letter or can't you? MS F MOLETE We received letters that stated us we are called to Pretoria. MR STRYDOM If I put to you those were summonses, what do you say about that? CHAIRPERSON Summonses or subpoenas? MR STRYDOM Sorry, subpoenas yes. MS F MOLETE I am not learned, I know nothing. As I received the letter, I said the children must read it for me. MR STRYDOM Do you still have that letter or not? MS F MOLETE No. MR STRYDOM I just want to put to you that initially you were a State witness, but the State, the Prosecutors decided not to call you and the other people as witnesses and those witnesses were made available to the Defence, and then you were subpoenaed by the Defence to come to Pretoria. Do you accept that? MS F MOLETE The person who called us to Pretoria, we did not know. MR STRYDOM Yes, and that is why you didn't want to speak to the Defence Counsel at that stage, isn't it so? MS F MOLETE We never met with the lawyers, the person that we met was you and we talked with you. MR STRYDOM Do you know the name of any one of the other Advocates, Defence Advocates that were involved in that case? MS F MOLETE I know you Mr Strydom. MR STRYDOM Do you remember Mr Botha, or Advocate Botha? MS F MOLETE I do not remember him or her. MR STRYDOM I want to put to you that Mr Botha was actually the person that had dealings with you. MR BERGER Chairperson, Mr Botha put on record at the criminal trial that he never spoke to anyone other than Mr Mabuza and Mr Moloi. MR STRYDOM Well I never said he spoke with them, I never said that, I said he wanted to speak to them, but they refused, he had dealings with them. MR BERGER No you put Mr Botha was actually the person who had dealings with you. MR STRYDOM Yes, but Chairperson, I am not putting that he had a consultation with them, he wanted to speak to them, and they refused to speak with him. That is what I am putting. Do you remember Adv Botha, he is about 6"4 and he weighs about 120 kg's? MS F MOLETE Sir, I am not learned and now when you read figures to me, I loose you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Interpreter, when the witness says (indistinct), what does she mean? INTERPRETER The witness when she says that (indistinct), she really means that she has not had a formal education or school education. Hence I say she says she is not learned. MR LOWIES I would say Chairman, lateral translation would be I did not go to school. CHAIRPERSON I never went to school, I thought so. Yes? MR STRYDOM In any event, you said that I gave money to buy food for your kid, is that right, or for the kid? MS F MOLETE For all of us, including the child, we were all hungry. MR STRYDOM What food was bought? MS F MOLETE Kentucky and bread. MR STRYDOM Rolls and Coke? Is that the known Kentucky Fried Chicken, is that what you are saying, the known brand? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR STRYDOM I want to put to you and I am not going to go deeper into this, but there is not a Kentucky Fried Chicken anywhere close that I know of, to the Supreme Court of Pretoria. I have confirmed that with my learned friends. So what I am putting to you is this story about Kentucky Fried Chicken is a total lie. MS F MOLETE With respect sir, great respect, you directed us to that place, we said we do not know Pretoria well. You said we must ask at a certain shop, that cafe. We went down towards the taxi rank. MR STRYDOM Did you go and buy the Kentucky Fried Chicken at the Kentucky Fried Chicken shop yourself? MS F MOLETE We left, meaning all of us. MR STRYDOM Yes, well I am not going to go deeper into this, this is actually collateral issues, but I want to put to you this version of yours that I gave you money, is a total fabrication and you are doing it for your own purposes, I do not know why - what they are. MS F MOLETE I am an old woman and a woman of the congregation. I am telling the truth. You said to us we must go up and get that money. MR STRYDOM And I just want to enquire ... CHAIRPERSON She said you must go up and get that money - from where? MS F MOLETE Where we were with him, he told us we must go up and get somebody there who would give us money. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and how much money were you given there? MS F MOLETE R150-00. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR STRYDOM Thank you, so someone else gave you the R150-00, is that what you are saying, not me? CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom, I don't think we should belabour this point. You are alleged to have directed them to a particular office and at that office they were then given money by somebody else. MR STRYDOM Yes, I won't take it further, but I am putting that that is different from your evidence earlier on, and I am just putting to you that what you are stating now, is in fact a lie. Thank you Chairman, I've got no further questions. MS F MOLETE Mr Strydom, that is the truth. Even in heaven that is like that and you are an old person, we are here to speak the truth. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, maybe - I just want to say something, I can't remember whether they received witnesses' fees, but that is something that can be investigated, I don't know. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON Mr Lowies? Perhaps just before you put questions to her, do you know what is your date of birth? MS F MOLETE Yes, my mother often tells me and my mother did tell us. CHAIRPERSON What is it? MS F MOLETE I was born on the 1st of August, the eighth month, now I tend to forget the year. CHAIRPERSON What is your standard of education? MS F MOLETE I do not remember sir, because my mother passed away when I was young and I had to work to fend for the younger ones. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, yes Mr Lowies. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOWIES That was actually the first point I wanted to canvass. I refer you to page 266 of your evidence in the Goldstone Commission and there you said you think that you were born in 1952, the middle of the page, approximately line 18 Mr Chairman. Could that be so? MS F MOLETE They estimated upon looking at me, trying to find out in which year I might have been born. MR LOWIES I think you are making a mistake, I would just like to read to you what the record states. The cross-examiner asked you "... Mrs Molete, one last question, what year were you born in?" And your reply not theirs, your reply was - "... I think it was 1952." MS F MOLETE When these boys come and take statements from us, they look at us and say it would seem that you were born in this year, know that you were born in this year. MR LOWIES Now what would you say, what is your age? There were you are sitting, what do you think? CHAIRPERSON Mr Lowies, the point has been made, she can't recall what her age is, nor can she recall what her standard of education is. Let's move on to another point. MR LOWIES Can you read or write? MS F MOLETE I am trying to write and I was taught by my child to write my name and to read a little bit. I suffer from eyes sir and I have nerves. MR LOWIES You suffer from eyes? MS F MOLETE That is correct. MR LOWIES The reason why I ask you this question, I actually observed on a previous occasion when you gave evidence, that you read the statement which Mr Strydom referred you to and it was held by Ms Cambanis? MS CAMBANIS May I place on record Chair, that she also pointed to words and asked me what they were. MR LOWIES Let's hear what she says. What do you say? MS F MOLETE I have been telling Ms Cambanis that I can read here, I cannot see, I can see there. The understanding of English and Afrikaans is not that well, I speak Afrikaans that is used by maids in the kitchens or suburbs, who work in the suburbs. MR LOWIES Could you read what was shown to you on your statement, were you able to read that? MS F MOLETE With respect sir, who read that for me? MR LOWIES Did you read it yourself, that is what I am asking you? MS F MOLETE People who wrote the statement for me, asked me, I tell them, they write. Now I do not know how I will answer this. MR LOWIES Maybe you are understanding me wrongly, we are talking about the time when the statement was held in the hands of Ms Cambanis next to you. You were pointed to a place where something is said. Did you manage to read what was written in that statement when Mr Strydom cross-examined you, yes or no? MS F MOLETE No, Ms Cambanis pointed out that where we are reading, it is here, and she pointed out with this thing. MR LOWIES Now you say "I suffer from my eyes", what do you mean by that? MS F MOLETE I grew up with a problem of my eyes and this is combined with the nerves that I suffer from, ever since this incident took place. MR LOWIES Let me just understand you correctly, you say you were born with this problem regarding your eyes, but the nerves only started after the attack? MS F MOLETE Even at the moment, I do suffer from nerves and that is great suffering that I have. MR LOWIES If you say you suffer from your eyes, do you mean that you can't see properly? MS F MOLETE At times I can see, at times when I am indoors, when I go outside, my eyes start crying. MR LOWIES Would you say that you have weak eyes, in other words you can't see properly? MS F MOLETE Mr Lowies, when I am under the shade or in a shady place like when I am indoors, when I go outside, at times I cannot see properly. I take time to see clearly. MR LOWIES When you were inside here, could you see what Ms Cambanis showed you on your statement, here two days ago? MS F MOLETE Sir, Ms Cambanis read out to me where Mr Strydom was reading and marked with this pen. MR LOWIES Yes, now the question is that which she marked for you, could you see it, could you read it, here indoors? MS F MOLETE I cannot read English. I pick out here and there, not fully like a person who is able to read. I sort of spell out what I am reading. MR LOWIES Would you say that you are a nervous person by nature? MR BERGER Chairperson, I think the witness has explained that since the incident, she has been suffering from nerves. CHAIRPERSON: Put the question differently, prior to this incident, did you suffer from any nerves? MR LOWIES You heard the question, prior to this incident, did you suffer from any nerves? MS F MOLETE No. MR LOWIES On the night of the incident, were you nervous? MS F MOLETE Before the attack, I didn't have nerves. MR LOWIES Were you confused on the night of the incident? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR LOWIES Between yourself and Miriam, who is the eldest? MS F MOLETE Myself. MR LOWIES During your evidence in the Goldstone hearing, page 268 more or less at line 22 you said the following "... we were still confused and now I just, I don't remember so well. We were just still very confused." MR BERGER Chairperson, perhaps my learned friend could start at the beginning of a sentence, rather than in the middle. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what is the point of putting this? MR LOWIES The question that I would like to ask is, it appears to me that even when you gave evidence during the Goldstone Commission, you had two problems, one being confusion of what happened on the night of the incident and secondly, you could not remember well. Do you agree with firstly, you were confused as to precisely what happened on the night of the incident? MR BERGER Chairperson, in fairness to the witness, my learned friend ... MR LOWIES How can I cross-examine like this? MR BERGER Excuse me, I am allowed to object. In fairness to the witness, my objection Chairperson, is that my learned friend plucks a statement out of the middle of a sentence, and in fairness to the witness, he should explain the context in which the statement was made. CHAIRPERSON I think the question is fair, he is putting to the witness, the witness is quite entitled to say yes, that is true, or no, it isn't. MR BERGER This statement is made in the context of statements which were taken from her. CHAIRPERSON No, he is putting the question now to the witness, the question is fair, that is what we rule. Put the question and let's proceed. MR LOWIES So firstly, were you during the Goldstone hearings confused regarding the happenings on the night of the attack? MS F MOLETE At the Commission sir, are you referring ... MR LOWIES Yes. MS F MOLETE I was still confused because in my life, that was the first time I have seen such an incident. MR LOWIES And now, are you still confused giving evidence here? MS F MOLETE When I am being asked questions, this thing comes to mind. It is like I can see what happened to me, what was done on me, and now my feelings get hurt. MR LOWIES I don't follow, are you confused or not, here, giving evidence? MS F MOLETE I prayed to God to help me to ward off this incident so that I can talk to you in a proper manner. MR LOWIES And, are you confused now or not? MS F MOLETE I am getting confused as time goes on, bit by bit, it is the truth. CHAIRPERSON Ms Molete, is the position that what you are telling us now, and you have been telling us since you took the witness stand, what you can recall of and concerning the events of the 17th of June 1992 to the best of your ability? MS F MOLETE Are you saying that I must tell what took place at my place? I do not understand well Mr Nqcobo. CHAIRPERSON What I am putting to you, is that what you are telling us is what you can recall of what happened on the 17th of June 1992? MS F MOLETE Some I can remember, some I do not remember. MR LOWIES Now when you gave evidence at the Goldstone Commission Enquiry, did you remember well what happened at the night of the incident? MS F MOLETE Some of the things I would forget. MR LOWIES Did your memory improve since then? MS F MOLETE My memory would be confused because Miriam was unemployed and we had to get a wheelchair for this child. All of these things were on my shoulders as I was the eldest in the family. MR LOWIES So does that mean you memory actually faded or it improved, I don't know since Goldstone? MS F MOLETE As I look at this child, my memory fades because the child is growing up and I have to fare her mother to Germiston, the wheelchair breaks, they come to me, now I do not get a rest and emotionally I do not get rest. MR LOWIES Just to put you in the picture, is it correct that your evidence is that initially on the night of the attack, you and Miriam peeped through a hole in the shack? MS F MOLETE That is correct sir, the kitchen door had a hole. MR LOWIES Right, who looked first? MR BERGER Chairperson, with respect, we have been through this at length. My learned friend is now covering ground which has been dealt with in cross-examination. MR LOWIES It was not covered, who looked first. CHAIRPERSON If you cannot remember, say yes, if you do, tell us so that we can pass on. MS F MOLETE I cannot remember sir. MR LOWIES Miriam said that when she looked, she could see the people were wearing headbands, your evidence is that you could not see that. MS F MOLETE CHAIRPERSON Were they peeping through the same hole? MR LOWIES Yes, that is what she said, through the hole in the door in the kitchen. It was also the evidence of Miriam that you peeped through the hole "... myself and Florence peeped through the hole ...", CHAIRPERSON You can't expect her to comment, that is a matter for argument. She saw one thing, Miriam didn't see it, peeping through the same hole. MR LOWIES I will leave it at that Chair. It is not clear to me, is it your evidence that Miriam was attacked by a white person? MS F MOLETE I say Mr Lowies, I cannot remember. What took place at my home was a very confusing thing. INTERPRETER I may say (indistinct), that is the words she used. MS F MOLETE It was a commotion. MR LOWIES According to you the paraffin lamp fell down and broke. When did this happen? MR BERGER I think we have canvassed this question in exactly the same terms before. MR LOWIES Not according to me, Chairman. If I can be told what the answer was. CHAIRPERSON What was the answer? MR BERGER During the attack in the kitchen. CHAIRPERSON But what is the question that you are asking? MR LOWIES At what stage, when it happened, at what stage? CHAIRPERSON What was happening at the time? MR LOWIES Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, can you recall what exactly was happening when the lamp fell down and broke? We know it was during the attack, but what Counsel wants to find out, can you recall what was exactly happening and if you can't recall, tell us. You have told us that there was a commotion, so if you can't recall what was exactly happening at the time, tell us. MS F MOLETE I was already being assaulted. MR LOWIES Do you know what caused it to break? MS F MOLETE I do not know. MR LOWIES Did you see any white people not wearing balaclavas? MS F MOLETE No. MR LOWIES Can you describe the balaclavas that you saw being worn by people that you think were white people? INTERPRETER Chairperson, I cannot see where the witness is pointing unless she states where she is pointing. Chairperson, I cannot see where the witness is pointing, unless she tells us where she is pointing, because from here my view is not clear of the witness. CHAIRPERSON Can you describe this balaclava? Perhaps you can just tell us whether, did it cover the entire face or what part of the face, was covered, if it did not cover the whole face. MS F MOLETE I could see the nose. MR BERGER The witness is indicating, she is drawing a line around her face and she is indicating that she could see what was inside that line, if I am correct. MR LOWIES Maybe I can assist you, do you want to say that the face was open or that there were only three holes, one for the nose and two for the eyes or was it one big opening for nose and eyes? MS F MOLETE The nose was not covered and here and there... MR BERGER Here and there is the eyes and the mouth. CHAIRPERSON We have heard evidence of a balaclava that only showed two holes for the eyes and then one other hole for the nose, did you understand that? MS F MOLETE Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON Right, is the one that you saw, the type that exposed, that had one hole which exposed the eyes, the nose and the mouth? MS F MOLETE The one I saw, it is the one that I am referring to, around the eyes and down towards the nose and the mouth. MR BERGER Chairperson what the witness is indicating there appears to be around the eyes, then she went around the nose and then she went around the mouth. MR LOWIES Actually I also saw it, in other words four holes, are we ad idem regarding that? MR BERGER That is what it looked like, yes. MR LOWIES Now, you talk about the one balaclava that you saw, did you see more than one balaclava like this or only this one? MS F MOLETE Mr Lowies, I do not remember. When you ask me a question, I would request that you allow me some time probably about two minutes, for me to think a bit. MR LOWIES Are you ready to answer? CHAIRPERSON Just let the witness answer whenever she is ready. MS F MOLETE I do not remember well. MR LOWIES Did you see anybody ... CHAIRPERSON Just a second, (indistinct), doesn't that mean I can't remember very well? The translation says I don't remember when? ADV SIGODI Well. CHAIRPERSON Oh, okay. Ms Molete, take time before you answer the questions if that is what you want. MR BERGER Chair, the witness actually would like a break, she says she is tired. CHAIRPERSON We will take a break now and come back at eleven o'clock. MR BERGER Thank you very much. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Ms Molete, how do you feel now? MS F MOLETE I am better sir. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Do you think you can continue giving evidence? MS F MOLETE Yes sir. FLORENCE MOLETE (still under oath) MR BERGER Ms Molete has said to Ms Cambanis that she would like to go to the Doctor at three o'clock, I sure hope her evidence will be finished long before three o'clock. CHAIRPERSON Oh, I have no doubt. Yes, very well. Yes Mr Lowies? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOWIES (continued) Mr Chairman, maybe you can just assist me, did I ask and get an answer regarding whether she saw anybody with painted faces, I think that was the last question? Not? CHAIRPERSON No. MR LOWIES Did you see anybody with painted faces on the night of the incident? MS F MOLETE No. MR LOWIES During the attack or shortly thereafter, did you hear the sound of engines of a heavy vehicle? MS F MOLETE May you repeat the question please. MR LOWIES Did you hear the sound of the engines of a vehicle, a heavy motor vehicle during the attack? MS F MOLETE No. MR LOWIES Now, just to get perspective, I understand your evidence that you saw a Police vehicle at a stage when you were at the dumping ground, is that correct? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR LOWIES Just bear with me for a second. MR DA SILVA I apologise Mr Chairman, with regard to the vehicles, Mr Chairman, my clients are still investigating that, I haven't got any information at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Even, I think even if it is photographs, if one can just take photographs of these motor vehicles. MR DA SILVA Yes, I am still obtaining instructions at this stage. CHAIRPERSON Yes. It may be a bit difficult to identify it from a drawing, a photograph is far better. MR DA SILVA Mr Chairman, I am obtaining instructions and as soon as I am in a position, I will revert to you. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And perhaps the legal representative who is appearing for the Police, if they could endeavour to get us a photograph of the casspir and perhaps just to complete the process, the "nyala", microwave, the suitcase and a hippo, yes. I don't think we would need the over-all's of the Green Beans. Yes, very well. MR LOWIES Thank you Mr Chairman. This Police vehicle that you saw, was it a casspir, do you know what a casspir is? MS F MOLETE I know it to be a Police vehicle, I do not know what a casspir is. MR LOWIES Was it a big vehicle or a van, like a bakkie, a light delivery van? MS F MOLETE A big one. MR LOWIES Do you know what the colour was? MS F MOLETE No sir, I was far. MR LOWIES When you were at the dumping site, could you also see ambulances? MS F MOLETE I do not remember, I just came down. CHAIRPERSON You don't remember how many - you don't remember seeing ambulances from the dump? MS F MOLETE I do not remember. MR LOWIES Did you see ambulances on the night of the incident? MS F MOLETE The ambulance I saw was the one that carried Mita's mother. MR LOWIES When did you see this ambulance for the first time, where were you? In other words, were you still at the dumping ground, were you on your way to the house, were you at the shack where the assault took place or were you at any other place? MS F MOLETE I was already coming down. MR LOWIES From the dumping ground towards the house? MS F MOLETE That is correct. MR LOWIES Which did you see first, the ambulance or the vehicle that you say is a Police vehicle? MR BERGER Chairperson, she said she saw the Police vehicle from the dumping site. CHAIRPERSON I also want to know the answer to that question Mr Berger. MS F MOLETE The Police vehicle, I saw first. MR LOWIES How long after the vehicle, after the Police vehicle, did you see the ambulance, can you give us an estimate? MS F MOLETE I do not remember sir. MR LOWIES Would you say it was a short period? MS F MOLETE I do not remember. MR LOWIES Let's maybe take it as follows, we know that you saw the vehicle that you say is a Police vehicle, whilst at the dumping ground? Starting from there, you have now seen this vehicle, did you remain at the dumping ground or did you after that, shortly thereafter or immediately thereafter, start walking towards your shack? MS F MOLETE I came down, then I went home. MR LOWIES How long did you stay at the dumping ground, did you just go there and immediately thereafter went back to your house? MS F MOLETE It was not a long time. MR LOWIES Maybe you can assist us with this, what did you do at the dumping ground, so that we can ascertain how long you were there? What did you do there, you arrived at the dumping ground, you saw the vehicle and then, what did you do? If I say the vehicle that you saw, I am referring to the Police vehicle? MS F MOLETE I looked at the location. MR LOWIES Yes? MS F MOLETE Then I took a blanket, borrowed to me from people who slept at Matiki, I did not take a long time, I came down. MR LOWIES Okay, can I just to make sure that we understand each other, so you saw the vehicle, then you went to a person who gave you a blanket, you took the blanket, you didn't stay long and then you went down towards the house again, is that the sequence? MS F MOLETE That is correct. MR LOWIES And then how far did you walk before you saw the ambulance? MS F MOLETE I do not remember. MR LOWIES Can you maybe show us on the map where you were when you saw the ambulance, if the map can be shown to the witness, with your permission Chair. CHAIRPERSON The witness says she cannot remember where she was when she saw the ambulance. If she says that, is she going to be able to indicate on the map where she was, at the time when she saw the ambulance, we know from her now that after seeing the motor vehicle, the impression one gets from her, that she didn't remain there for a long time, she left, and on her way, she saw the ambulance. This is the ambulance that took Mita's mother to hospital. I think this is the one where she could not get in, because I think it was full as I recall her evidence. That seems to be the sequence of the evidence. MR LOWIES Thank you Chairperson, I understand. I thought maybe with assistance of the map, she would be able to assist us regarding where she was. If that is the case, I will leave it. CHAIRPERSON I raised the question whether if she says she can't tell us where she was, maybe you can canvass if she is shown the map - Ma'am, if you are, remember the sketch that you have been shown from time to time, the map, is that the one that is in front of her, yes all right, do you see that map? MS F MOLETE It is the first time that I see this map. I am seeing this map for the first time here. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand that, but if you have a look at that map, will you be able to indicate where you were when you saw the ambulance, is that the question? MR LOWIES Yes, thank you. MS F MOLETE No. MR LOWIES Thank you Chair. If I suggest to you that it must have been a very short time since you saw the Police vehicle on your version, and the ambulance, would you agree with that? MS F MOLETE Mr Lowies, I can no longer remember. MR LOWIES When you saw this vehicle, there were no pedestrians near it, is that correct, it was just a vehicle? MS F MOLETE I do not remember Mr Lowies. MR LOWIES As I understand the situation regarding the shack, it is a three roomed shack, is that correct, a bedroom, kitchen and a small room? MS F MOLETE The kitchen and the bedroom. MR LOWIES Is it only a two roomed shack? MS F MOLETE That is correct. MR LOWIES Did the bedroom have a window? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR LOWIES Was there a curtain in front of the window? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR LOWIES That wall, sorry how many windows were there in the bedroom, just one? MS F MOLETE Only one. MR LOWIES That wall with the window, was that wall ever damaged? MS F MOLETE It is the one that was damaged. MR LOWIES How? MS F MOLETE The wall fell down. MR LOWIES Did you see the actual falling of the wall or did you just observe afterwards this wall is damaged? CHAIRPERSON Mr Lowies, this was canvassed at length yesterday and she repeated that the walls to the shack were made out of cardboard and they fell down, she even indicated which walls fell down. Now whether she actually saw the wall falling down or not, how is that going to prove or disprove the presence or otherwise of either Mr Zulu or the Police when she has already given us the answer? MR LOWIES I would have thought that she maybe saw who did it, whether the white people on her version, were involved in that. CHAIRPERSON Okay, well maybe you should just put the question directly, did you see you know, who broke the wall. MR LOWIES I will do that. Did you see who broke the wall? MS F MOLETE No. MR LOWIES This bedroom wall with the window, which direction did it face, if you can maybe show us on the map which Ms Cambanis is going to ... MS F MOLETE Facing in the direction of Sasol. MR LOWIES On the map? MR BERGER South. MR LOWIES Sorry, maybe Mr Berger can assist us. MR BERGER South. MR LOWIES Is there an Apollo light on the southern side of this window? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR LOWIES Do you know whether there were stones thrown at the shack? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR LOWIES More or less when did this happen, before or after the people entered the shack or during that period? MS F MOLETE During the time of the attack. MR LOWIES Did you enter into the court room, were you called with Miriam into the court room during the criminal, on the day, let me just help you, that is on the day when you say Mr Strydom spoke to you? MS F MOLETE No. MR LOWIES Were you at all called into a court room where the Judge asked you people questions, where Miriam was inter alia there as well? MS F MOLETE No. MR LOWIES Okay. The reason why I am asking you is the record reflects that you were inside the court room, your name is Florence Molete? MS F MOLETE I do not know about entering the court room. MR LOWIES At a stage you spoke about one white person and then about two white persons that you saw on the night of the incident. Do you recall what weapons if any, these people that you saw were white, or this person that you say was white, had with him or with them? MS F MOLETE The person was in possession of a gun. MR LOWIES Any other person with a weapon, a white person with a weapon that you can recall? MS F MOLETE The one I saw was in possession of a gun, the other one passed by, running. MR LOWIES And could you see a weapon in his possession? MS F MOLETE No. MR LOWIES Because during the Goldstone hearings, page 259 of the Exhibit, Chairman, you said that he had something like an axe with him? You said one had a gun and the other one had something like an axe with him. MS F MOLETE I do not remember that. ADV SIGODI What page are you referring us to? MR LOWIES Page 259, line 7 more or less, 7 to 10. ADV SIGODI Thank you. MR LOWIES You also testified during the Goldstone hearings that, sorry Chairperson, this is at page 258 of Exhibit II, line 17 approximately and I quote now your evidence to you "... well, I noticed this white person and another one who came in through the broken portion of the shack." MR BERGER Chairperson, this specific paragraph has been dealt with in cross-examination. MR LOWIES I withdraw the question, my learned friend is correct. In your evidence at the Goldstone Commission, you said that ... CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Lowies. MR LOWIES I will start with a new aspect, when you saw the vehicle that you say was a Police vehicle, was there at that stage any attack or was the attack already finished, finalised? MS F MOLETE They had already passed my house, I cannot comment or I do not know about other places. MR LOWIES Because at page 261, the first ten lines approximately, you say that at the stage when you saw the casspirs, there you were talking of two, the attackers were still in Bakwena Street, they were still breaking windows and attacking houses? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR LOWIES Yes what, is that correct? MS F MOLETE Yes, that is correct. MR LOWIES But you just now said that the attack was already finished when you saw the vehicle. MR BERGER No, she never said that. MR LOWIES You said you don't know. MR BERGER She said the attack had passed her house, she did not know what had happened at other places. MR LOWIES Well there is a contradiction as indicated by Mr Berger. How can you say you don't know, when there is clear evidence that you did know? MS F MOLETE Mr Lowies, I explained that the attackers moved along Bakwena. After they had passed my place, running towards Cape Gate seemingly. MR LOWIES At page 264, approximately at line 7, you state in the Goldstone hearings "... I was lucky to escape with hits and kicks only." Is that true? CHAIRPERSON What are your instructions with regard to her injuries? MR LOWIES It appears that she was not sexually assaulted. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but what are your instructions? MR LOWIES I don't know, so I have to explore. MR BERGER Chairperson, if my learned friends are putting to the witness that she was not sexually assaulted, then we will lead medical evidence if they do not accept her oral evidence. She has explained why she did not mention this to the Goldstone Commission. MR LOWIES I have instructions not to accept that. MR BERGER Not to accept what? MR LOWIES ... assaulted. MR BERGER So the applicants deny that? MR LOWIES Yes. MR BERGER So Chairperson, we can put on record that the applicants specifically deny that Ms Florence Molete was sexually assaulted, thank you. MR LOWIES No, it is disputed. What is your answer regarding "I was lucky to escape with hits and kicks only"? CHAIRPERSON I have to stop you now from cross-examining on this aspect. The witness has testified at length about the injuries that were sustained, the record of her evidence in the Goldstone Commission, speaks for itself. What else do you want the witness to say? MR LOWIES I withdraw the question then. CHAIRPERSON The record speaks for itself, the matter has been fully canvassed. MR LOWIES Thank you. I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON What is the page reference that you have just referred her to? MR LOWIES It is 264 Mr Chairman, at the sixth line. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the very last sentence? NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOWIES CHAIRPERSON Yes Ma'am? MS PRETORIUS I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS CHAIRPERSON Ms Tanzer, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER I do. Ms Molete, did you form the opinion that the Police took part in the attack on Boipatong? CHAIRPERSON We are not interested in the witness' opinion, we are only interested in the facts. MS TANZER I withdraw the question. When you were subpoenaed to appear in Pretoria, did you know why you had been subpoenaed? MS F MOLETE We did not know the person who called us. MS TANZER Did you want to give evidence at the criminal trial about the attack on your home on the night of the 17th of June? MS F MOLETE No. MS TANZER Did you not want to give evidence in order to put the attackers behind bars when you were subpoenaed, put them in jail, to be more exact? CHAIRPERSON Well, is the question why did she not want to testify? MS TANZER Well, yes in a roundabout way. In a roundabout fashion, that is the question. MS F MOLETE Ms Tanzer's question is a bit ambiguous, it is not direct. CHAIRPERSON It is supposed to be a direct question, why did you not want to give evidence at the criminal trial? MS F MOLETE I gave a statement to Mr Lucky, isn't that so Mr Nqcobo? MS TANZER When you went to Pretoria, when you were subpoenaed to Pretoria, that was involuntary or voluntarily, you went voluntarily or involuntarily? MS F MOLETE We were called by the Police, I was afraid of the reason why we were called. MS TANZER Why did you not want to speak to Mr Strydom in Pretoria? MS F MOLETE I talked to Mr Strydom. MS TANZER Did you know who Mr Strydom was representing at the time that you spoke to him? MS F MOLETE He explained to us. MS TANZER Would you have been willing to give evidence if you were representing the State against the attackers? MS F MOLETE Yes Ma'am. MS TANZER Did you know any persons dwelling at the kwaMadala hostel during the 1992 period? MS F MOLETE No. MS TANZER Could you identify any of the attackers, the black attackers that night at your home? MS F MOLETE No. MS TANZER When you saw the "koyoco's" from the dumping site, did you think that the "koyoco's" were part of the attack on Slovo Park or did you think they had come to assist and protect you from the attackers? CHAIRPERSON I have warned you Ma'am, that what we want this witness to tell is, is what she saw and not her opinion. It is for us to draw conclusions and inferences from the facts. MS TANZER Did you hear any rumours that an attack on Boipatong and Slovo Park was imminent prior to the attack? MS F MOLETE No. MS TANZER Did any of the attackers, besides the white Policemen on the stoep, have firearms in your home on the night of the attack? MS F MOLETE I did not see. MS TANZER This white man that you described standing on your stoep, had you ever seen him before? MS F MOLETE No. MS TANZER Were you aware of the relationship between the people of Slovo Park or Boipatong and the South African Police during the 1992 period? MS F MOLETE No. MS TANZER Whilst you were making your way to the dumping site itself, did you hear a lot of screaming and gunshots in the air? MS F MOLETE Yes. MS TANZER When you say you saw the ambulance and you saw your sister getting into the ambulance, had the attackers stopped already or did you still hear gunshots in the distance? MS F MOLETE At the time she got into the ambulance, the attackers were already gone. MS TANZER Do you know whether the mixed hostel near Slovo Park, or anybody at that mixed hostel, was attacked during the night of the 17th of June? MS F MOLETE Yes. MS TANZER So you know that the hostel itself, was attacked or that building that is called the hostel? MS F MOLETE Yes. MS TANZER Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Tanzer, Mr Da Silva? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA Thank you Mr Chairman. Ms Molete, I just want to cover one aspect with you. You recall on Tuesday, Mr Berger was asking you questions and you gave certain answers regarding to the clothes that the white man with the gun outside your home, had. Do you recall that? MS F MOLETE There were many questions sir. MR DA SILVA Yes, I will take you specifically to the question, after you had testified about the white man with the gun, Mr Berger asked you what clothes did this man have, can you recollect that? MS F MOLETE Yes, I remember. MR DA SILVA Then you explained, you said that he had clothes, I am going to paraphrase your evidence here, he had clothes used by soldiers or Policemen. They were ugly clothes used by the soldiers. You think they call it camouflage. Do you remember evidence to that effect? MS F MOLETE Yes, I do remember. MR DA SILVA The question is, are you saying and this is what I want to clarify, that soldiers during June 1992 wore camouflaged clothing or are you saying that soldiers now, more recently, wear camouflage clothing? MS F MOLETE The soldiers and the Police were in a similar fashion, I cannot make a distinction, a very clear distinction. CHAIRPERSON Is that now, that is at about the time of the assault, what the Police and the military from as far as you were concerned, wore the same clothing, I mean similar camouflage clothing? MS F MOLETE At times others were called Police, others were called soldiers. I do not have a clear understanding, I worked in the morning and got off at half past eight in the evening. MR DA SILVA Ms Molete my instructions are that during June 1992, soldiers were not issued with camouflaged clothing. This only occurred during the middle of 1994. Can you offer any comment in that regard? MS F MOLETE I say I am old, to me a soldier and a Policeman is one and the same to me. A Police I would see when he or she wears others. MR DA SILVA I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Da Silva. MR DU PLESSIS Ms Molete, I have no questions for you. I do however, want to put to you that I act on behalf of Mr Pedro Peens and it is my instruction to put to you that he was not involved with the Boipatong massacre. If you can answer? MS F MOLETE I do not know the person you are referring to. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mey? MR MEY Thank you Mr Chairman. Ms Molete, I just want to put to you, it is my instructions to put to you, I am acting on behalf of Mr Chaka and Mr Greeff and they were not involved in the Boipatong massacre? MS F MOLETE I do not know those people sir. MR MEY Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mey. Mr Mapoma? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you sir. Ma'am, during the attack on you, did the attackers tell you why they were assaulting you? MS F MOLETE They never talked. MR MAPOMA I need your comment on this now. The applicants say they attacked Boipatong, yourselves included, because they perceived the Boipatong people as ANC supporters. What do you say to that? MS F MOLETE I do not know sir. MR MAPOMA Were you a member or supporter of the ANC at all? MS F MOLETE No. MR MAPOMA You have said they did not say anything, but they did say something - your evidence tells that. Amongst the things that they said, did they ever ask you where the comrades were? MS F MOLETE Yes. It is during the attack. MR MAPOMA Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Berger? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Ms Molete, what did the attackers say about the comrades? MS F MOLETE They said we must take out our guns, in Zulu. Then we said there is none. They said "we know the comrades had placed them in here" and we replied that we do not know. Then a fight started. MR BERGER Is that all they said about the comrades? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR BERGER Do you remember, you were talking about the white man who ran passed you, from inside the house to outside? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR BERGER And you told the Committee that at some point, you saw him from the front. MS F MOLETE Yes. MR BERGER Now, can you tell the Committee where he was at the time that you saw him from the front? MS F MOLETE I do not know from where he was, but he passed me. MR BERGER Yes, but when you saw him from the front, where was he standing? MR LOWIES I must object, that suggests that he was standing, and the evidence is he wasn't standing. MR BERGER I am not suggesting that, I will rephrase. When you saw him from the front, can you say in what room of the house he was? MS F MOLETE He was coming out of the bedroom, they came out running. CHAIRPERSON Is this the white man that at some stage you told us, you saw for the first time when he was outside, when he was running? That is the man that you saw as you were laying down on your stomach with your face facing the side, is that the man you are talking about? MS F MOLETE The one who was standing, was still standing there, looking inside the house when this one ran passed me and they got out, all of them. MR BERGER Ms Molete, you said to the Committee about evidence that you gave to Judge Goldstone and then you said, "I often pray to ward off these things". What did you mean by that? MS F MOLETE I mean that this thing must be moved far away from me and we must forget about it, we sustained injuries, we are handicapped and there is nobody who is going to help us. MR BERGER Is it that you want to forget? MR LOWIES That is leading with respect. CHAIRPERSON This is re-examination. MS F MOLETE Yes, I pray God to help us that we must forget, we are in difficult times. We are pushing a child on a wheelchair and those who injured her, are nowhere to be seen. We are paying school fees that is way too high for us and we do not know why we have to undergo such things. MR BERGER Ms Molete, do you know about the Kulumani Support Group? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR BERGER Are you a member of that group? MS F MOLETE Yes sir. MR BERGER What does that group do? MS F MOLETE Kulumani Support Group is the one that gathered people who were harassed in the past and for us to forget past incidents. Secondly Kulumani, it is not aligned with any other organisation, everybody who comes, is with us. MR BERGER And you speak about your experiences there and you try to forget them, is that what it is? MS F MOLETE Yes, when we are at the Kulumani, we at times forget these things and we do some things and we forget what we experienced. MR BERGER How long have you been attending Kulumani? MS F MOLETE I do not remember sir. MR BERGER Do you feel that Kulumani has helped you at all and if so, how? MS F MOLETE It has helped by providing a wheelchair for the child when I did ask for it. Secondly it makes me forget and I can say it has helped me. MR BERGER Has it helped you to talk about your experience? MS F MOLETE When we have meetings, we discuss these things and we forget. At times we sing, we pray, it becomes joyful. MR BERGER Thank you Ms Molete, I have no further questions? NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Do you have any questions Mr Sibanyoni? MR SIBANYONI Just one Mr Chairperson. Ms Molete, you said you were able to see that the two people were whites by their height as well as the nose or the size of the nose. What I want to know from you, were those the only marks or features you were able to identify them by, as whites? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR SIBANYONI You also said that the balaclavas they wore, had openings around the eyes, the nose and the mouth? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR SIBANYONI Was it easy to see properly inside those openings? MS F MOLETE Which holes? MR SIBANYONI Around the eyes, the nose and the mouth? MS F MOLETE There was a lot of light, it was bright. MR SIBANYONI And you were able to see properly? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR SIBANYONI Maybe I should ask you in this fashion, you never at all spoke about the colour of these people, why? The complexion, you never said anything about their complexion, I want to know why? MS F MOLETE I was not asked about their complexion, moreover, there was a fight ensuing. MR SIBANYONI So because there was a fight, you were not able to see the complexion? MS F MOLETE They are white, I saw them. MR SIBANYONI Can I rephrase perhaps the question, normally a distinguishing feature between a black and a white person will be described by way of the complexion and I noticed that you didn't say anything about the complexion. Do you not regard the complexion as the most important distinguishing feature? MS F MOLETE I do not understand. MR SIBANYONI Normally when we distinguish between a white person and a black person, we will talk in terms of the complexion, the colour, we will say the white person is white and the black person is black. But you didn't distinguish in terms of that complexion. Do you agree with me? MS F MOLETE I am not able to answer your question. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Adv Sigodi? ADV SIGODI Did you notice the complexion of the people wearing the balaclavas? MS F MOLETE It was a white person. His nose was not covered. This one who was looking into the house. ADV SIGODI Did you notice the complexion on the nose? MS F MOLETE Yes. ADV SIGODI What was that complexion? MS F MOLETE White. ADV SIGODI Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax? MR LAX No questions Chairperson. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOWIES Sorry, there was an aspect raised about Kulumani, which strictly speaking, wasn't arising out of cross-examination. I have one question pertaining to the Kulumani Support Centre, may I with your permission as a question? Do you know whether Mr Wilson Baloyi, Ms Buwa or your sister, Miriam, form part of this support group? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR LOWIES All three of them? MS F MOLETE Yes. MR LOWIES No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOWIES CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ma'am, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We intend taking a short break at this stage, approximately until about twenty past twelve, my watch says it is ten past, is that right? If we can then reconvene at twenty past. Is your next witness ready? MS CAMBANIS Yes Chair. CHAIRPERSON Who is the next witness? MS CAMBANIS It is Rebecca Motaung. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. Whilst you get her ready, we will take the short adjournment and come back at about twenty past twelve. We will then sit probably until about quarter past, twenty past one, roundabout there, then we will have lunch. All right. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Ms Cambanis, what language is your client going to speak? MS CAMBANIS Sotho, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you. MS MOTAUNG I am Diektseng Rebecca Motaung. DIEKTSENG REBECCA MOTAUNG (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON What is the first name, how do you spell the first name? Can the witness assist us? Can you spell your first name? MS MOTAUNG No, I cannot spell my name. MR SIBANYONI Mr Interpreter, can you assist? INTERPRETER Yes, I will do so, it is Diektseng CHAIRPERSON Very well, thank you. EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Thank you Chair. Ma'am, will you please tell the Committee, on the 17th of June 1992, where you were residing? MS MOTAUNG I was staying at 105 Slovo Park. MS CAMBANIS And you were present at your home during the course of that evening, is that correct? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I was at my place that night. MS CAMBANIS Please tell the Committee what happened that night? MS MOTAUNG It was around half past ten, me and my husband were already in bed. MS CAMBANIS Who is your husband, what is his name? MS MOTAUNG He is Petrus Motaung. MS CAMBANIS And it was only yourself and your husband at home that evening? MS MOTAUNG Yes, it was the two of us only. MS CAMBANIS Please carry on. MR LOWIES Then we heard people throwing stones on our shack. We looked through the door, then people entered. MS CAMBANIS what people entered? MS MOTAUNG They were men, many men. MS CAMBANIS Can you describe these men at all to the Committee? MS MOTAUNG May you please repeat the question Adv Cambanis? MS CAMBANIS Could you please describe the men to the Committee? MS MOTAUNG Those that I saw in front, they had headbands on their heads, red and white headbands. MS CAMBANIS Yes, and then they entered your home? MS MOTAUNG One of them who had a black overcoat, he came to me and he stabbed me with a spear, that is on my breast. That spear penetrated me on my left side. He stabbed me again where I am pointing. MS CAMBANIS Just hold on. INTERPRETER Honourable Chair, may I please ask that the witness explain in words, because where I am standing, I cannot see when she is pointing. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. You say that he stabbed you again and I think you indicated, where exactly did he stab you again? MS CAMBANIS Just show? MS MOTAUNG I don't know whether the Committee would allow me to undress so that I can show them. CHAIRPERSON No, no, no. MS MOTAUNG They stabbed me here. MS CAMBANIS Chair I can assist. CHAIRPERSON All we need is, you said that the first time he... MS MOTAUNG He stabbed me on my breast, and he repeated on the same place again for the second time. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV SIGODI Left breast? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MOTAUNG That time I was still standing, there was nothing I could do and then he came again, the third time and he stabbed me on the thigh. MS CAMBANIS The witness has indicated the left thigh, Chair. MS MOTAUNG He stabbed me on the thigh and repeated again on the same place. He stabbed me again underneath, on the same leg, just below the first and the second wound. CHAIRPERSON What about the left leg? MS MOTAUNG That is correct. He stabbed me seven times. MS CAMBANIS Do you recall, while the stabbing was going on, did anything else take place during the stabbing that you recall? MS MOTAUNG While he was still stabbing, the others were removing the curtains. I had a two roomed shack. Others were busy removing the curtains and others were smashing the tables, the chairs and the cupboards. MS CAMBANIS Did you hear anyone say anything? MS MOTAUNG When he was stabbing me for the seventh time on the right breast, I heard a white person speaking in Afrikaans, saying - asking whether that woman is dead. When I heard him saying that, I threw myself on the ground and I was shouting, saying I am dead. I fell on the ground just next to that white person. CHAIRPERSON Did you say that this man spoke in Afrikaans? MS MOTAUNG That is correct Chair, he was speaking in Afrikaans. MR LAX Sorry, just repeat again what he said again please. The first part of it? MS MOTAUNG He asked whether that woman is dead. MS CAMBANIS So those are the exact words you heard him saying in Afrikaans language? MS MOTAUNG Yes. The other one answered and he said yes. When she called her mother, you must know that she is dead. MS CAMBANIS What language was that person replying in? MS MOTAUNG He was speaking in Zulu. MS CAMBANIS Please carry on, what happened then? MS MOTAUNG That white person called them saying "come, come". And then they left. MS CAMBANIS Are you telling the Committee that the reason he was white was because you heard him speaking in Afrikaans? What is the reason that you say he was white? MS MOTAUNG I saw him because the Apollo light in Mosheshe, its light reached our shack, so I could see the people who were entering my shack, because they also saw me. MS CAMBANIS Is there any other information that you can give the Committee about this white person, what he looked like, what he wore, anything? MS MOTAUNG He could be, his height could be that of Mr Malindi. He had a balaclava and I could see the nose and the mouth and he was pink. MS CAMBANIS Anything else that you want to add? CHAIRPERSON Sorry Ma'am, you could see - did you say you could see the nose and the mouth? MS MOTAUNG I could see his nose, his mouth and his eyes. MS CAMBANIS You say during the attack some of the attackers were also destroying property in your house, is that correct? MS MOTAUNG Yes, they were taking blankets, smashing the table and the chairs and the cupboard and also the bed. MS CAMBANIS And after they left, what happened? MS MOTAUNG I sat there for a long time, crying. MS CAMBANIS And did you receive any medical treatment for your injuries after that? MS MOTAUNG At that time my neighbour came and he took me to the ambulance. MS CAMBANIS Were you hospitalised? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I was taken to Sebokeng Hospital. MS CAMBANIS For how long did you remain there? MS MOTAUNG I was discharged on the 18th and then on the 19th, I went to my mother's place. MS CAMBANIS In which area is that? MS MOTAUNG That is in Qua-Qua. MS CAMBANIS Do you remember, or do you know where your husband was during this attack? MS MOTAUNG He went through and ran away. MS CAMBANIS Is there anything that you wish to add, tell the Committee, anything further? MS MOTAUNG We were taken to write a statement on two occasions in Pretoria, and then on the third occasion myself, I was called by Mr Strydom. MS CAMBANIS Was this in Pretoria? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MS CAMBANIS What happened? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I object, I say it is not relevant, this evidence. MS CAMBANIS I withdraw that then, in that case, I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Strydom? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Thank you Chair. Can you have a look at Exhibit J? MS CAMBANIS May I indicate to her the contents of the note, because she doesn't know what is before her? CHAIRPERSON Yes, by all means, unless there is an objection. MR STRYDOM I can do it as well, but if she is in trouble I will ask you to do it. MS CAMBANIS Okay, thank you. MR STRYDOM Do you see the Exhibit in front of you? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MR STRYDOM As you look at the Exhibit in front of you, on the right hand side, you will see what is shown there as Slovo Park, do you see that? MS MOTAUNG Where it is marked in pink? MR STRYDOM Yes, that area marked in pink, do you see it? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I do see. MR STRYDOM Now, do you see Bapedi Street? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I do see Bapedi Street. MR STRYDOM The last street between the Boipatong township and Slovo Park, is Bakwena Street, do you see that? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I do. MR STRYDOM You say that your shack's number is 107, can you just give an indication more or less, where on this map will you find your shack? MS MOTAUNG My shack is at the back, it is number 105, that is on this side of Florence's place. MR STRYDOM So is it close to the previous witness' place, Florence Molete, is that what you are saying? MS MOTAUNG It is far from Florence's place. Mine is at the back, Florence's shack is in the front. MR STRYDOM Is your shack closer to the dumping ground? MS MOTAUNG That is correct, it is near the place called Matiki, that is the dumping ground. MR STRYDOM Yes. Can you indicate, if you must choose one of the streets, Bapedi, Majola, Baralong or anyone of the others, just give an indication, if you must draw a line, a straight line from anyone of those streets, can you state in which line would you say is your house, let's just get an indication? MS CAMBANIS Chair, she has gone along Bapedi Street, right to the extreme right hand and gone down to what looks like the last house in the bottom right hand corner. CHAIRPERSON Would that be the one that is highlighted in black? MS CAMBANIS Yes, that is correct. MS MOTAUNG Yes, it could be there where it is marked with black colour. CHAIRPERSON What is that, would that be where - what is that what she has just indicated? MS CAMBANIS She is indicating southwards from number 17 that is marked, and she is indicating between Baralong and Mosheshe Streets, the shack that is marked in black. MR STRYDOM Can she show us which one she marked. CHAIRPERSON It is the very last shack on the extreme right, is it Mosheshe Street? MR LAX It is the most south eastern shack on this plan. And that is her shack? MS CAMBANIS That is her shack, number 105. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, it has just occurred by the way that the map that I have, has been cut. So whilst I may be referring to the very last - oh, no, it isn't. MR STRYDOM Thank you Chair. This shack of yours, how many rooms did it have at that time, the time of the attack. MS MOTAUNG Two rooms. MR STRYDOM In which direction was the front of this shack facing? MS MOTAUNG It was facing the Apollo light in Mosheshe Street. MR STRYDOM So it was facing towards the township, is that what you are saying? MS MOTAUNG That is correct, it was facing the direction of the township. MR STRYDOM And that Apollo light that you are referring to, is that on the corner of Bakwena and Mosheshe Streets? MS MOTAUNG I know the one that is down Mosheshe Street, that is the one that its light reached my shack. MR STRYDOM Just to get clarity, you say down Mosheshe Street, is that towards the township itself or just on the corner of the township? MS MOTAUNG I am referring to the corner of the township that is next to the bar. MR STRYDOM Yes, the beer hall, do you know the beer hall? MS MOTAUNG Yes, that is next to the beer hall, there is an Apollo light there, that is the corner of Mosheshe Street. CHAIRPERSON The corner of Mosheshe Street and which street? MS MOTAUNG That street goes up towards Bakwena. MR STRYDOM You have told us that the shack is facing towards the township, does it have a door that opens in the direction or a door on the side of the township? MS MOTAUNG Yes, the door was in the middle of the shack, that door was dividing the two rooms. On the other side was the kitchen and on the other side was the bedroom. MR STRYDOM Was there a window on either side of the door? MS MOTAUNG No, there were no windows. It was just a shack without windows. MR STRYDOM On that night, the attackers had entered the shack, did they come through the door? MS MOTAUNG They broke the door with bricks and that door was broken and they managed to enter through that door. MR STRYDOM If you say the door was broken, did it come down or was it just forced open by the stones? MS MOTAUNG They hit this door with bricks in the middle of that door. This was made from a ceiling hardboard, it was not a strong door. After hitting this door, and then that door opened and then they broke that door as I am indicating now and they managed to enter. MR STRYDOM Just to get clarity, after they entered, was the door still hanging on its hinges? MS MOTAUNG They broke that door in the middle and there was an opening in the middle. The other one took another piece and removed that piece and the other one removed another piece, so when they entered, there was no door. They had thrown those pieces, those two pieces on the ground. MR STRYDOM Was there any source of light in the house? MS MOTAUNG No. MR STRYDOM The stones that struck the shack, what were you and your husband doing? MS MOTAUNG We were already asleep, then when we heard the stones hitting the shack, we woke up and then we went to the door to look. There was an opening at that door, so we managed to peep through that opening. When you peep through that opening, it became easy for you to see everything that was happening outside. MR STRYDOM When you peeped through the opening, what did you see? MS MOTAUNG We saw many people, a group of people, a large group of people. MR STRYDOM At the stage when you peeped through the window, could you see anything about what the group was wearing, their clothes? MS MOTAUNG They were wearing different clothes and one of them was wearing an overcoat. MR STRYDOM Apart from the overcoat, can you describe that person's clothing any further? MS MOTAUNG He wore a blue over-all, Iscor over-all. MR STRYDOM When the attackers started coming into the house, can you give an indication how many of them came in? MS MOTAUNG No sir. There were many who entered the shack. MR STRYDOM When they entered, your husband was also in the shack, is that correct? MS MOTAUNG When they entered, my husband managed to escape and ran away. MR STRYDOM When your husband escaped, did you stay behind in the shack? MS MOTAUNG I was still in the shack because I only wore a short night-dress, so I couldn't go anywhere. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, did you say that your shack had one entrance from the outside? MS MOTAUNG It was a two-roomed shack, we had a bedroom and a kitchen. We had only one door. CHAIRPERSON Is that the door from the outside into the shack? MS MOTAUNG Yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay. And this door from outside, does it lead into the kitchen area or into the bedroom? MS MOTAUNG It enters into the kitchen and then from the kitchen, then you will move through to the bedroom, because we only shared the kitchen from the bedroom with curtains. CHAIRPERSON Okay, so between the kitchen and the bedroom, there was a door? MS MOTAUNG There was no door, we shared the bedroom from the kitchen with a curtain. CHAIRPERSON But there was a curtain, there is an entrance from the kitchen into the bedroom, but there was no door, there was just a curtain? MS MOTAUNG Yes, you only open the curtain and then you enter the bedroom. There was no door, sir. CHAIRPERSON Did you see how your husband left the shack? If you didn't see, just say so. MS MOTAUNG When they entered, my husband escaped running through them, that is in between this room, I was standing there, I was surprised. He managed to run through this group of people. I could see him. CHAIRPERSON Yes, when this large group entered, that is when he managed to slip through them and out of the shack? MS MOTAUNG Yes, he managed to run through them. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR STRYDOM You did not leave the shack - sorry. MR LAX Just before you go on Mr Strydom, I just want to be absolutely clear in my own mind, was there a wall separating the kitchen and the bedroom with a doorway, but the doorway had a curtain in it or was the divider a curtain, I am just not clear? MS MOTAUNG This shack was divided by curtains, that is three curtains, like the one that is behind the Committee, so you just push that curtain and then you manage to go through into the bedroom. MR LAX Thank you, you have clarified it for me. Thank you very much. MR STRYDOM From the time when you woke up, till after the attack on you, you did not leave that shack of yours, is that right? MS MOTAUNG Not at all. I remained in the shack, standing there, I was surprised. MR STRYDOM Your husband, Petrus Motaung, testified at the criminal trial, is that correct? MS MOTAUNG Yes, he testified but I don't know what he said. The only thing that I know, he ran away, so I don't know what he wrote in his statement. MR STRYDOM I want to refer you to a certain portion of his evidence and I then want comments from you. The portion I want to refer to, just for record purposes, Volume 22, page 2547, and I will translate. Firstly he said that he heard that there was something going on outside and now I am going to try to translate "... My Lord, I opened the door and when I went outside, my wife followed me. I saw the people outside in my yard. I jumped over the fence of the wire fence and tried to run away." What I am putting to you is according to your husband, before the attackers came into the house, he went outside and you followed him, what do you say about that? MS MOTAUNG I do not agree with that, we never went outside, we just peeped through, that is through the door, we never went outside. The door was opened by the attackers when they hit that door with bricks. We never opened that door. MR STRYDOM Later on in his evidence he states the following, on the next page 2548, line 11. The question was "... when you jumped over the fence, where was your wife at that stage? Then the answer - "... My Lord, she ran back into the house." MS MOTAUNG I never went outside, I had been inside the shack. They opened the shack and my husband ran away. MR STRYDOM Did you see the time when your husband was injured? MS MOTAUNG No. MR STRYDOM Was he in fact injured? MS MOTAUNG I saw him on the 18th, he was from the hospital as he said, and he showed me where he was injured. That is next to the spinal cord. MR STRYDOM Did you hear at any stage that the attackers said "hlabi hlabi nam", which means stab him. Did you hear that? Sorry, I am going to just read the translation as it appears in here, "stab him, stab him, there he is." Did you hear that? MS MOTAUNG No, I never heard that from the attackers. CHAIRPERSON Is what you have read, supposed to have taken place inside the shack? MR STRYDOM No, no, I specifically asked at any stage if she heard that. It was not, according to the witness, this Petrus Motaung, it was not said inside the shack, no. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you see because as I understand her evidence, it is that she at no stage left the shack. She only left I think after the attack, after the attackers had gone. MR STRYDOM Yes Chairperson, I also understood her evidence to be that. I just asked if she heard that from any position where she could have been at that stage. CHAIRPERSON Oh, okay, yes. Ms Cambanis, do you have a transcript of the ... MS CAMBANIS Yes, I have it in front of me, yes. MR STRYDOM You say that you were in the shack and then the people came in? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MR LAX Sorry Mr Strydom, where was the last quote from? MR STRYDOM The last line on page 2547. MR LAX Okay. MR STRYDOM And it continues on the first line of page 2548. MR LAX: Okay, thank you. MR STRYDOM You said the people came in inter alia, a person with a black overcoat came in. Can you give any description, could you see him better to give a further description of what clothing he was wearing at that stage? Yes, one with a black overcoat, he came to me and stabbed me, I want a further description of that person. MS MOTAUNG I was stabbed by one person. He stabbed me seven times. This person wore a blue Iscor over-all and then he had this white headband. MR STRYDOM I take it if he had a white headband, he did not wear a balaclava? MS MOTAUNG These people who entered into the shack, they had white and red headbands. This one who was attacking me, who was stabbing me, and the rest were just smashing the property. I didn't notice when they left the shack because I was concentrating on this person who was busy stabbing me. CHAIRPERSON You are asking her about the person who stabbed her, whether he had a balaclava? Ma'am, Counsel is asking you what the person who had the overcoat, that is the person who was stabbing you, did he have a balaclava on? MS MOTAUNG No, he had a red headband. MR STRYDOM Was he a black person? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I was stabbed by a black person. MR STRYDOM You indicated that the door was off and there was an Apollo light close by so you could see quite clearly according to you, is that correct, what happened inside the shack now? MS MOTAUNG I could see inside the shack, because of that light from the Apollo light. You could even see something that was on the ground, you could even see its colour. MR STRYDOM When you heard this person speaking in Afrikaans, would you say that person was inside the shack or outside? MS MOTAUNG He was standing at the door. There was a hole there next to the door, he was just standing there and when I fell down, I fell on his feet. He was not inside. He was watching me. MR STRYDOM So you saw him clearly, is that what you are saying? MS MOTAUNG I could see him because that time, although this person was still busy stabbing me, I could see this other person, the white person clearly. MR STRYDOM As you described, you were laying right at his feet, so he was obviously very close to you? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I was just next to his feet. MR STRYDOM What was he wearing, can you say? MS MOTAUNG He wore camouflage. MR STRYDOM Why didn't you mention in evidence in chief, that he was wearing camouflage? MS MOTAUNG Adv Cambanis did not ask me what that white person wore, maybe I did not understand the question well, or I didn't hear the question, but I did write that on my statement. MR STRYDOM Which statement do you refer to now? MS MOTAUNG The one that I gave to Ms Cambanis. CHAIRPERSON Just a minute, as I recall it, the witness was asked a broad question as to could you give any other description of this white person. MS CAMBANIS That is what I recall, yes. CHAIRPERSON Is that everyone's recollection? That seems to be my recollection. The question was not specifically directed what was he wearing, it was a very broad question, could you give any other description of this person. Yes, very well. Mr Strydom, when you are moving on to the next point, let us know so that we can ... MR STRYDOM All right Chair, apart from the camouflage, can you give further descriptions about clothing? MS MOTAUNG He wore a balaclava. MR STRYDOM I asked you about clothing, why didn't you mention about a balaclava from the beginning. ADV SIGODI There is something that was not interpreted, my Sotho is not so good, but I think she mentioned gloves. INTERPRETER Honourable Chair, what the witness was saying, she was using, she was pointing but where I am sitting now, I cannot see, but she mentioned something to the effect that it was "butler", that is why I said balaclava. CHAIRPERSON When you were asked apart from the camouflage, what else was this white person wearing, you gave evidence and then you indicated on your hands, what were you trying to convey? MS MOTAUNG He wore something that protected his face. INTERPRETER She says that is "butler". CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR STRYDOM Anything else that you can remember, that he was wearing? MS MOTAUNG He had handgloves and he had a gun in his hand, a long gun, although it was not that long. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR STRYDOM Would this be an appropriate time? CHAIRPERSON Yes indeed. We will take an adjournment now and come back at two o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Strydom? DIEKTSENG REBECCA MOTAUNG (still under oath) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM (continued) Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, it has come to my knowledge that some Bundles did not contain the statement of Rebecca Motaung. We handed out the document, I believe Adv Malindi had one and some other people did have, and I think that will explain why there was a difference in the numbering of the pages, but we have handed that document now to all the parties. It can just be added towards the end of the Bundle. Ms Motaung... CHAIRPERSON Did any of the Bundles contain the statement? MR STRYDOM Yes. CHAIRPERSON Where is it in the Bundle? MR STRYDOM According to the index, it should have been the 11th statement, Rebecca Motaung. It is 36 in the correctly numbered Bundle, paginated Bundle. MR LAX It should come before Buwa's, John Buwa and after Molete? MR STRYDOM Yes. Before the statement of John Buwa. MR LAX Will it correctly be 34 and 35 and then the other numbers will just follow afterwards, is that right? MR STRYDOM: Yes, that will be right. Ms Motaung, in your evidence according to my notes you state the following after the question was asked "did anyone say anything", you said - "... I heard a white person saying in Afrikaans 'is that woman dead'?" I just want clarity, apart from the fact that you heard that, did you also see him saying that? MS MOTAUNG I saw him with my eyes, because I fell just next to his feet. MR STRYDOM Whilst you were laying at his feet, he said that, is that what you are saying? MS MOTAUNG He asked the person was attacking me, he wanted to know from that person whether I was still alive or dead. So when I heard that, I threw myself on the ground. This other person explained to him that when she calls her mother, you must know that she is dead. I saw him and I heard what he said. MR STRYDOM You heard and saw him speaking just before you fell to the ground? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MR STRYDOM Is that all he said? MS MOTAUNG Yes, that is all. That is not all rather, because after the other one had answered him, then he called him, he said "come, come". MR STRYDOM Was that then also said in Afrikaans? MS MOTAUNG Yes, he was speaking in Afrikaans, like I say. MS CAMBANIS Can I just place on record that the witness uttered the Afrikaans words, "kom, kom". MR STRYDOM Just to get clarity and this is the same person who was wearing the balaclava, the gloves, the overcoat and the camouflage? MS MOTAUNG He wore camouflage, he had an overcoat, handgloves and something that protected his face. MR STRYDOM You could clearly see that he was a white person, is that correct? MS MOTAUNG There was a light in the house, I saw them all when they entered, I could see him clearly because he was pink. MR STRYDOM So, if he wanted to wear the balaclava to hide his face, that was a total unsuccessful attempt because you could see that he was white? MS MOTAUNG Above his eyes and his nose, I could see the pink colour, like I am wearing my glasses, you can see my nose. I could see his mouth as well, he didn't protect the whole of his face, there were other parts of his face, that I could see. I saw him. MR STRYDOM Just describe this balaclava, which part of the face was not covered? MS MOTAUNG It had three holes to show the eyes, the nose and the mouth. You could also see the other side of the face, it did not show the mouth only, and also the area around the mouth. I saw him with my eyes. MR STRYDOM Yes, so there is an opening where you will find the eyes, there is an opening for the nose and an opening for the mouth, is that what you say? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MR STRYDOM At what stage did you realise that he had a gun with him? MS MOTAUNG When he entered the door, I saw him that he had a gun in his hand. When he entered, he had that gun in his hand. MR STRYDOM When did he enter the shack? Sorry, did he enter the shack or did he just stand at the door? MS MOTAUNG He entered the shack and he stood there next to the door, but inside the shack, like where you are sitting Mr Strydom, where you are sitting is the door, and then he was standing where your books are, that is on the inside of the shack. MR STRYDOM So just inside the shack? MS MOTAUNG Yes, he was inside, inside the shack. MR STRYDOM And he stood there all along, during the course of the attack on you? MS MOTAUNG The person who was attacking me, when he stabbed me for the last time, this white person entered and he asked him whether I am still alive. Then this man stabbed me for the last time and then he said to him, "yes My Lord", because I called my mother and then he said to him "when she calls her mother, you must know that she is dead", and I threw myself on the ground. MR STRYDOM Just to get clarity again, so he did not come initially, or he didn't come to that place where he came to a standstill, initially with the other attackers, he came at a stage whilst you were being stabbed? MS MOTAUNG He entered after the other group had already entered. MR STRYDOM You testified that your husband managed to escape through these people that were coming into the shack. How did he manage that, didn't they try to stop him? MS MOTAUNG He escaped through them when they entered. He told me after the attack, that is the following day, that he was also injured. They thought that he was one of them, when they entered, he managed to escape in between this group. He was stabbed outside, that is what he told me and I could see that he was really stabbed. MR STRYDOM According to my notes, just returning to the white person you say stood at the door, you were specifically asked when you were asked questions by Ms Cambanis what was he wearing and then you never said these things about balaclavas, you never said anything about the camouflage and the overcoat? You were asked about what was he wearing, that was the question, you mentioned the balaclava and I have checked the note here of my learned colleague, but you didn't say these things about the overcoat and camouflage, why not? What is your answer to that? CHAIRPERSON Are you referring to the part where she was asked to give a description of this white person? MR STRYDOM Yes Chairperson. My learned friend's got a more concise note that reads "can you give any information what he looked like, what he wore". It was the - and then she said balaclava, but she didn't mention at that stage the camouflage and overcoat. She did mention overcoat, but in relation to the person that stabbed her, the other person. She said the other person had a blue Iscor over-all and a overcoat over that. CHAIRPERSON Which person is this now? MR STRYDOM That is the stabber which she described, the overcoat. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but the one that you are asking her about. MR STRYDOM She was asked about this white person, what he said and all that, and then she was asked specifically what did he look like and what was he wearing. Then she said something about the balaclava, but she didn't mention the camouflage, she only mentioned that when I asked her, but I want to know why didn't you when you were specifically asked what the white person was wearing, why didn't you say he was wearing camouflage? MS MOTAUNG I did not understand that question. I know in my statement I indicated that that white person wore a camouflage. MR STRYDOM Is that the statement, which statement are you referring to? MS MOTAUNG I refer to the statement that I gave to Ms Cambanis. MR STRYDOM You also mentioned two statements you made, can you just tell us which statements do you refer to? MS MOTAUNG I gave Mr Kakana two statements on two occasions in Pretoria. That is Lucky Kakana. MR STRYDOM I have one of those statements in front of me, and according to this statement it was taken - the date that appears on the statement, let's put it that way, was the 17th of March 1993. The person that took the statement was Kakana. Do you remember giving that statement? MS MOTAUNG I remember that I gave him that statement, but I don't remember the date, that is the day and the month. MR STRYDOM Do you remember giving a statement at Vanderbijlpark? MS MOTAUNG I never made a statement at Vanderbijlpark. MR STRYDOM I want you to look at a document which purports to be your statement, Chairperson, that is the statement that I handed in at the beginning of this session. On the first page of that statement, the signature appears at the bottom of that page, do you see it? Is that your signature? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I see, I wrote this Motaung, but I don't know who wrote Rebecca. Yes, I agree I wrote Motaung. MR STRYDOM And on the next page, do you see Rebecca Motaung written there? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I do. It is me who wrote here, this Rebecca Motaung. MR STRYDOM On the second page you also wrote Rebecca? MS MOTAUNG Yes. CHAIRPERSON As I understand it, she says she wrote Motaung, didn't she? MR STRYDOM Yes, but on the second page she said she wrote Rebecca Motaung? CHAIRPERSON Yes, but she didn't write "Rebecca" on the first page? MR STRYDOM Yes, that is as I understand it. CHAIRPERSON Is that what you are saying? MS MOTAUNG I only signed Motaung, but on the second page, it is me who wrote Rebecca. MS CAMBANIS Chair, on the copy that has just been handed to us during lunch time, it is very faint on the first page, perhaps you should ... MR STRYDOM I am going to show you just another copy that is probably a better print. I think start with the first page again. MS MOTAUNG On the first page, I don't write Rebecca this way. On the second page, it is me who signed Rebecca and then on the first page, I wrote Motaung but not Rebecca. MR STRYDOM You don't know who wrote Rebecca on the first page? MS MOTAUNG That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is the Rebecca that is on the second page, in your handwriting? MS MOTAUNG Yes, that is my handwriting. MR STRYDOM I am not taking it further, but just by looking at it, I will put it it looks very much the same on the first and the second page, the writing of Rebecca. CHAIRPERSON What is your comment to what has been put to you? What Counsel is putting to you is that Rebecca who appears on the first page, looks very much the same as the Rebecca that is on the second page. MS MOTAUNG I say that I do not write "b" that way, that is on the second page. I know my writing, I know how I write Rebecca. The one that appears on the second page, is my writing, but the one on the first page, is not my writing. MR STRYDOM Let me ask you this, do you specifically remember that on the first page you just wrote Motaung? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I wrote Motaung. I remember everything that took place on the 17th, I also remember that I gave Lucky a statement, although I do not remember the date. I even know how I signed because I always remember what happened on that day. MR STRYDOM Did you tell him everything that you know about what happened on the 17th of June 1992? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I told him. MR STRYDOM Do you understand English? MS MOTAUNG No. MR STRYDOM Was he acting as an Interpreter, that is now Kakana? MS MOTAUNG He was the one who was interpreting for me. MR STRYDOM And did the two of you understand each other? MS MOTAUNG He was speaking in Sepedi, that is Northern Sotho, I was speaking Sotho. That is Southern Sotho. MR STRYDOM Yes, but could the two of you communicate? MS MOTAUNG Sometimes when you speak Sepedi, he would explain to me in Sepedi and then I would listen to him, he would also try to speak Sotho, but whenever he doesn't know to say a thing in Sotho, he will use Sepedi. He said to me I should explain to him what happened and he will explain to me why he is asking that question. MR STRYDOM Yes, but at the end of the day, the two of you could understand each other and you were happy by giving him the statement? You were happy that he was writing what you told him? MS MOTAUNG I was satisfied, although he did not read it to me what I explained to him. I explained everything that took place on that day. The person who is working for the law, I didn't suspect that he would change my statement. MR STRYDOM Yes. I want to refer you to paragraph 2, it reads here "I woke up ...", maybe I will just start at the beginning of the statement just to put it into context "... while we were asleep, I heard people crying and stones were thrown all over our shack. I woke up and lit the candle." I am going to stop there now, I will read further just now. Is that correct that a candle was lit? MS MOTAUNG We did not light the candle and I did not hear the people crying. The only thing that I heard, were the stones that were hitting my shack. We never lit the candle because there was that Apollo light on, so it was clear in our shack. MR STRYDOM Yes, but you must remember according to you, the shack didn't have any windows. I am sure when you woke up, the door was still closed? Why won't you light a candle under those circumstances so that you can see what is going on in the shack? MS MOTAUNG The light from the outside, could penetrate on the sides of my door, there was another opening above the door, even on the sides, so the light could penetrate into the shack from the outside. MR STRYDOM I want to put to you that it seems to me that the Apollo light was not so strong to make it clear inside the shack and that is why a candle was lit? Isn't it so? MS MOTAUNG That day there was this Apollo light and the moon light as well, it was like during the day. MR STRYDOM Yes. Now you said there are two mistakes, the one is about the crying and the second one is about the light. Let's go on "... my husband went out of the shack and he called me out." Is that correct? MS MOTAUNG No. MR STRYDOM Because you testified today you just stayed inside? Can you give any suggestion where Mr Kakana would have got this information from, if not from you? MS MOTAUNG I told him that we did not light the candle, I told him again that we never went outside. I told him that when the attackers came inside the shack, my husband went outside, running out. That is what I told him, so I don't know what he wrote in that statement. MR STRYDOM It is not really an explanation, or are you suggesting that he just wrote what he wanted to? MS MOTAUNG Because he was speaking in Sepedi and I was speaking in Sotho, so I don't know. There is a difference between Sepedi and Sotho. Because he apologised to us that he doesn't know Sotho, he only knows Sepedi and I told him that I cannot speak Sotho, English or Afrikaans, I only understand there and there - that is English and Afrikaans Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well, did you not tell him that you do not understand Sepedi - not Sotho? MS MOTAUNG I told him and he said to me there is no one who can come and write this statement, because there was another person, Themba, who was speaking Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Just answer the question, what was conveyed to us in the interpretation is that you told him that you can't speak Sotho, English and Afrikaans, so what I want to clarify from you is whether you told him that you cannot speak Sepedi not Sotho? MS MOTAUNG I said I will speak Sotho, not Sepedi. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Strydom? MR STRYDOM I will get to portions of the statement that corresponds with your evidence, so is that just a coincidence that certain portions are correct and other portions not? INTERPRETER Honourable Chair, Mr Strydom was cut, I could not get the last part of his statement. MR STRYDOM I withdraw that statement, I will ask that again at the end of the statement. The statement carries on and I just want to get clarification if this is now information from you or not "... while we were outside, I saw a group of people wearing blue over-all's and some of them red headbands"? Do you want to comment? MS MOTAUNG I said they entered the shack, some of them had white headbands, others had red headbands. The one who was stabbing me, wore the blue over-all and an overcoat. MR STRYDOM Yes. So according to you there was only one person with a blue over-all? MS MOTAUNG I am referring to the person who was stabbing me, we were facing each other. MR STRYDOM Yes, but did you see any other people in blue over-all's? MS MOTAUNG Others were just wearing their private clothes when they entered. This person who wore this blue over-all, came to me, he was facing me, he was facing me and stabbing me. MR STRYDOM Yes, what I am trying to establish, which portion of your statement you agree with and which portion, you don't. This portion where it is stated "a group of people wearing blue over-all's" is also then not correct? MS CAMBANIS Chair, doesn't the statement read that that was outside, which she is denying? CHAIRPERSON We understand her statement that she did not go outside, that is on record here. All he wants to find out is the rest of the statement. She is free to say yes or no. Which portion of the statement are you putting to her now? MR STRYDOM Chairman, I am going line by line, but the portion I am putting now is "I saw a group of people wearing blue over-all's". The question is apart from the one person she says she was with a blue over-all, did she see other people with blue over-all's during the course of the attack, either inside, outside, any place? MS MOTAUNG Mr Strydom, when I was talking to Mr Kakana, we were talking about this person who was stabbing me. The other people were wearing their private clothes, the person I am talking about, is this one who was stabbing me. CHAIRPERSON You see Ma'am, so that we can get through this exercise faster, if you are asked whether you agree with that or do you not, say yes you agree or you don't agree. We have heard your evidence and you have told us that you saw a person who was stabbing you, who wore green over-all's, what he is putting to you is whether did you see a group of people wearing this, the answer is yes, I saw them, or I did not see them. MS MOTAUNG No. MR STRYDOM The next sentence "... and some of them wearing red headbands while others had white headbands." Is that correct or not, did you tell that to Mr Kakana or not? MS MOTAUNG Yes, that is true. That statement is true. MR STRYDOM And then it reads further "... they started throwing stones at us and my husband ran away and got into the house." Is that correct or not? MS MOTAUNG That is not true. MR STRYDOM Paragraph 3 "... a group of black males entered into the shack and one of the group stabbed me with a spear, while others were breaking my kitchen units and chairs." Is that correct? MS MOTAUNG That is correct. MR STRYDOM: "... I was stabbed on the left thigh and below the left breast." Is that correct? MS MOTAUNG That is correct. MR STRYDOM: "... and then left the shack. While I they were passing next to the shack, I heard someone saying in Afrikaans 'het jy die vrou doodgemaak'? INTERPRETER May I please ask Mr Strydom to repeat the question please. MR STRYDOM Unfortunately I am reading as it stands here, so I will do it again, it doesn't make all that sense. MR LAX Sorry Mr Strydom, does it not read "and they left the shack", not "and I ..." MR STRYDOM Yes, just to put it into context again, I have read to you "I was stabbed on the left thigh and below the left breast" and "... and they left the shack. While I they were passing next to the shack", I think that has been scratched out, I will read it again, sorry Mr Interpreter, "... while they were passing next to the shack, I heard someone saying in Afrikaans 'het jy die vrou doodgemaak?' Then someone said (indistinct) in Zulu." I have read quite a portion to you, do you agree with what is stated here in the statement? MS MOTAUNG No. I do not agree with that portion that says the person who was speaking Afrikaans, was outside. He was inside. MR STRYDOM Yes, because in this statement you say "while they were passing next to the shack, I heard someone saying", so that would indicate that the person that said that, was passing the shack, you never said that to Kakana? MS MOTAUNG No. MR STRYDOM And then it carries on "... in Zulu which means yes My Lord, she is dead and they left the premises." Is that what the person said in Zulu? MS MOTAUNG That is correct. MR STRYDOM And then you go further "... I will not be able to identify any of the attackers." Is that correct? MS MOTAUNG That is correct. MR STRYDOM "... the damage on my kitchen units and chairs can be R500-00." MS MOTAUNG No. MR STRYDOM What is wrong with that? MS MOTAUNG I said I do not know the estimation because the cupboard fell, the dishes also fell and the chairs were broken and the table was also broken. So I said to him that I did not know. MR STRYDOM You see, what you left out in this statement is that you saw the person who said in Afrikaans "het jy die vrou doodgemaak". Why didn't you say that? MS MOTAUNG I told him about that, I told him. MR STRYDOM All you stated here "I heard someone saying in Afrikaans", it is not stated here that you saw him? CHAIRPERSON To understand this in the context, as I understand her evidence just now, she said the portion which is incorrect is that the one where the statement reads "while they were passing next to the shack, I heard someone saying ..." and the rest of the sentence, because as far as my evidence is concerned, this person was inside. That is how I - is that right Ma'am? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MR STRYDOM Let me ask you this way, did you tell Mr Kakana that the position of the person, did you say that he was standing in the door, very close to the door when he said that, that is what I want to know? Did you tell that to Mr Kakana? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I told him this clearly, I told him that he was standing at the door as he was entering. Like where you are sir, where your books are, that is the inside of the shack. I even told him that he had a gun in his hands. MR STRYDOM Yes, and did you also tell him that you could see him speak, that you could clearly see that he was a white person? MS MOTAUNG When he entered, there was a light. Any person who enters my shack, I could see. I could see that others were white and others were black. MR STRYDOM Yes, that I understand but that is not the question. I want to know if you told Mr Kakana that you saw the person that spoke, you could see that he was white, in fact he was very close to you? Did you relate that to Mr Kakana? MS MOTAUNG I told him about that. ADV SIGODI Sorry, can I just get some clarity as to the circumstances under which this statement was taken. Do you remember when you were giving this statement to Mr Kakana, not exactly the date, but do you remember the instance when you were giving the statement to Mr Kakana? MS MOTAUNG Are you referring to my life situation or where I stay, I don't understand your question. ADV SIGODI No, the day when you were giving this statement to Mr Kakana, do you remember that day? MS MOTAUNG I do not remember the day of the week, I do not remember the month. The only thing that I remember is that I gave him this statement because I went to another place to go and rest. ADV SIGODI Where did you give him this statement? MS MOTAUNG We were in Pretoria. ADV SIGODI And how many people were there when he was taking the statement? MS MOTAUNG I do not remember how many people were there, but he was calling us one by one. ADV SIGODI So in other words, you were alone with Mr Kakana? MS MOTAUNG Yes, it was the only two of us. I do not remember the statement, or is the statement that we wrote while we were, the two of us, in the office because there is another office in which he was interpreting for another person. I don't know which one is this you are referring to. ADV SIGODI So you are saying there was a statement where Mr Kakana was interpreting for another person, and that other person was writing. Was that person writing the statement? MS MOTAUNG Yes, he was writing the statement, even Mr Kakana was also writing. He called us and then he said to us we are going to give him another statement. I went there and I gave him another statement. I don't know whether this statement is the first one or is the second one. ADV SIGODI So was there a statement where he was taking from you and he was writing without reporting to somebody else, where it was just the two of you? MS MOTAUNG Yes. He said to me he is going to rectify some mistakes from the first statement. ADV SIGODI And do you remember which statement you signed, did you sign both statements or did you sign only one of those statements? MS MOTAUNG I signed the first statement on which there appears Motaung and then I also signed the second one on which it appears Rebecca Motaung. ADV SIGODI That statement, if it is this one, then it means you are referring - it is the same statement, but it is different pages. MS MOTAUNG I signed another statement Rebecca Motaung and the other one that I signed, I only signed Motaung. ADV SIGODI Did you sign on one occasion or did you sign on two different occasions? MS MOTAUNG The first time when I went there, I signed once. Then the second time, I signed once. MR STRYDOM If you look at this statement in front of you now, the one you said you signed on the first page Motaung and the second page Rebecca Motaung, would you say that is the first or second statement? MS MOTAUNG On the second one I see is Rebecca Motaung, even on this one it is Motaung. So I don't know which one is the first or which one is the second. I only know that I signed the statement. CHAIRPERSON Let me put it to you this way, just think back about the two statements that you signed. You see the one that is in front of you at the moment, has got two pages on. Do you see that? MS MOTAUNG Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON Okay, the other statement that you signed, can you recall whether it had one or two or three pages, more than two pages? MS MOTAUNG No. MR STRYDOM I put it to you that the date on this statement is the 17th of March 1993, what I want to know from you, did you make no other statements before that to other people, other than the Police? MS MOTAUNG No sir. I was not around here, I had left. The first statement that I made was with Mr Kakana, on two occasions, I never made another statement. MR STRYDOM Why did you not lay a charge to charge the people that assaulted you? Why did you not lay a charge against the people that assaulted you? Soon after the attack, eventually you made a statement, but I want to know after you came out of hospital, why didn't you make a, why didn't you lay a charge? MS MOTAUNG I was angry, I was unable to walk and then I went to my mother's place in Qua-Qua. MR STRYDOM To get back to the statement we are talking about, did you tell Mr Kakana, that was the question, did you tell him that the person that spoke Afrikaans had camouflaged clothing on? MS MOTAUNG There is nothing that I hid, I told him everything like I am doing right now. MR STRYDOM Just to get clarity, you told him that the person had a gun, is that correct? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MR STRYDOM You told him that the person had a balaclava? MS MOTAUNG Yes sir. MR STRYDOM Also about the camouflage? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MR STRYDOM Did you tell him about the gloves? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MR STRYDOM Nothing of that, I put to you, nothing of that appears in the statement, so out of his own accord he must have left that out? That is the only explanation you can give, is that correct? MS MOTAUNG I don't know because what I saw he was writing. ADV SIGODI Sorry, did you tell Mr Kakana about the gun and the camouflage on both occasions that he took your statements? MS MOTAUNG Yes Ma'am. MR STRYDOM I started off by putting what your husband testified at the trial about the fact that you went out with him and that you went back later. I just want to put it to you this statement now is in line with what your husband testified. Do you still maintain that you did not go outside just before the attack? CHAIRPERSON Help me understand the question. MS MOTAUNG No sir, I did not go outside, only my husband went outside, only my husband, not me. CHAIRPERSON What is supposed to be in line with her husband's evidence? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, what I have put about the husband is that they were both outside at a certain stage and then she went back and the husband ran away. In this statement, it is also stated "I woke up and lit the candle, my husband went out of the shack and he called me out. While we were outside, I saw a group of people wearing ...", so according to her statement, this statement, and what her husband said at the trial, they were both outside, so I put this to her and asked her if she still maintains that what her husband testified there is wrong and this statement is also wrong. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MS MOTAUNG I never said that I went outside, I never said that I lit the candle, that is not what I said. I don't know whether they confused my statement with my husband's statement, the only thing that I know, I said what I am saying right now. CHAIRPERSON Okay. You see what Counsel and you've got to listen very carefully here, what Counsel is putting to you is that the portion of the evidence which is contained in the statement which he has just read to you, that is waking up and lighting the candle, going outside of the shack and following your husband outside of the shack, that evidence is the same evidence that was led by your husband when he was called to testify at the criminal trial, do you understand that? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON Okay. I think what he wants you to explain, if you have an explanation and if you don't have an explanation, you would say so, you are alleged to have made a statement in which you say that you woke up, lit the candle and went out. Your husband when he testified, gave evidence to that effect that he woke up, lit the candle and then went out and you went out. Now, what Counsel wants to find out is why is that so? MS CAMBANIS Sorry Chair, I think the evidence her husband gave was simply that they went out. CHAIRPERSON Well, they went out. Do you know why that is so? MS MOTAUNG Well, I don't know sir. MR STRYDOM I want to put to you either you are making a mistake about the white person you saw, or you are not telling the Committee the truth, do you have any comment? MS MOTAUNG I saw him. I fell on his feet, he had a gun, I saw him with my eyes. MR STRYDOM What kind of gun did he have, can you give any description? CHAIRPERSON I think all she could tell us was that it was a long gun. MR STRYDOM So can't you take it further than to state it was a long gun? MS MOTAUNG No, I don't know different types of guns, I only saw this long gun. MR STRYDOM Thank you Chair, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Lowies? Should we take a break now? Yes, I think so Mr Berger. Shall we take a break now? MR BERGER I would appreciate it. MS CAMBANIS It seems that the only person who wants to continue Chair, is the witness, but I am sure she is overruled. CHAIRPERSON I don't think Mr Berger will approve, I think he is ... MR BERGER I would like a break. CHAIRPERSON Ma'am, do you have an objection if we just take a short break and come back and continue with you? MS MOTAUNG When I listen to people speaking to me, I will confuse my evidence. I would appreciate if this Committee can continue with my evidence. CHAIRPERSON Well, did people speak to you whilst you were giving evidence? MS MOTAUNG When I am looking at the victims, some of them are crying, so I don't want to see their faces, I do not want to see people who are crying, because that will confuse me and that will disturb me in my evidence. So I will appreciate if you will continue. CHAIRPERSON Well, if you remain here, then we will come back and finish with you. If we sequestrate you. MS MOTAUNG I thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Very well, we will come back at half past three. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS DIEKTSENG REBECCA MOTAUNG (still under oath) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Lowies. MR LOWIES Thank you Chair. Chairman, my esteemed learned colleague, Ms Tanzer, requested that she be afforded the opportunity. As you can recall, she's got a problem and she wants to be excused. CHAIRPERSON Oh yes, very well, yes indeed. MS TANZER Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Chair, firstly if you don't mind, I would like to excuse myself, but I will just excuse myself silently in the next half an hour or so, if it is okay with you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, by all means, do you want to leave now? MS TANZER No, I will stay around for a while, thank you. I have no questions for this witness either. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. Did I hear you say that you won't be here tomorrow? MS TANZER I did say that and I do have somebody who is going to be appearing here for me, in my place tomorrow, it is already organised. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Okay. Perhaps you should think about whether Mr Nosenga in light of what you have heard so far, deserves to call any further witnesses and if so, who are they and what each one of them is going to tell us, that we haven't heard. MS TANZER I am actually canvassing that with Mr Nosenga at the moment, I have got people who have been approaching me during the different breaks, who are willing to testify. I think, by the time we sit next, I will have a list of people. CHAIRPERSON These are people who will tell us something that we haven't heard so far? MS TANZER Well, they will more support what he is saying than tell you something new, I don't think they can introduce any more information, but what I have heard so far, they just support what he is saying. If that is not necessary, then I am in the Commission's hands. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) MS TANZER That I believe. CHAIRPERSON Yes, indeed, yes, you may be excused at an appropriate time. MS TANZER Thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Lowies? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LOWIES Thank you Mr Chair. Ms Motaung, how far were you from the door of the shack when you saw the white person? MS MOTAUNG From where I am sitting, to next to those tables before you, that is the distance between myself and the door. CHAIRPERSON Okay, that is about seven paces? MR LOWIES I agree with that Mr Chair. And how far was he from the door, the white person? MS MOTAUNG It can be this distance that I am indicating with my hands. MR LOWIES I would say a meter? MS CAMBANIS Mr Berger insists it is a meter, Chair. MR LOWIES I would also go along with that. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR LOWIES Now, was he standing inside the doorway or was he slightly off, you referred Mr Strydom to the books and that, but I did not follow. Let's just get clarity on this. Was he standing inside the doorway or was he standing off to the left or to the right? MS MOTAUNG He was in the middle of that door. MR LOWIES So the light that came from the Apollo light, passed him from the back, correct? MS MOTAUNG There was light inside although the light hit him at the back, but I could see him. CHAIRPERSON The light that was inside, was it the one that was coming from the Apollo light? MS MOTAUNG That is correct sir. MR LOWIES Do I understand you correctly then that you were still standing when he asked the person who stabbed you, whether you are dead? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I was still standing. When this person was stabbing me, I was still standing, surprised. MR LOWIES Would you agree, he would have been able to see that you were not dead, because you were still standing upright? MS MOTAUNG Sir, when he asked him questions, that is when I threw myself on the ground because when he entered, I was still standing, when he started asking questions, that is when this man stabbed me for the last time, and then I cried and I shouted my mother. MR LOWIES Let's just hear this. CHAIRPERSON What Counsel is putting to you is and this is what you have told us, it is that when this white man asked of the person who was stabbing you, whether are you dead, you were still standing? MS MOTAUNG Yes. CHAIRPERSON And it was after that that you threw yourself onto the ground, is that right? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I threw myself on the ground because I was afraid that he would shoot me. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Now what Mr Lowies is putting to you is that because you were still standing, it must have been obvious to the white man who was asking this question, that you were still alive, do you understand that? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I do understand but what I am saying ... CHAIRPERSON What is your comment on that? MS MOTAUNG My thinking is that he thought that I was not alone in the shack. I thought maybe he asked that question because he believed that I was not alone in the shack. CHAIRPERSON Did you think that he was asking about somebody else? MS MOTAUNG Yes. CHAIRPERSON Not about you? MS MOTAUNG I thought that maybe he thought that we were many inside the shack, so after asking that question, I threw myself on the ground. MR LOWIES Chair, could the Interpreter's words be repeated? CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Lowies? MR LOWIES But he would have been able, on your version, to see that you were the only person there, besides the attackers? MS MOTAUNG I don't know what was in his mind. MR LOWIES But you also said something else which is odd, you said on hearing this, you threw yourself to the ground and shouted "I am dead", in chief you said that. MS MOTAUNG Yes, I said that I threw myself on the ground because I saw him having a gun in his hand. MR LOWIES And you said that "I shouted", or said that "I am dead." That doesn't make sense? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I called my mother, I said "mum, I dead." MR LOWIES So it must have been clear to you then, that he was referring to you if one looks at your reactions upon hearing what he said? MS MOTAUNG Yes, it was clear to me that he was referring to me because I cried, I said "mum, I am dying." MR LOWIES The point is the following actually, it must have been clear to you that at the moment when he spoke, not you, when he spoke, he was referring to you? MS MOTAUNG I don't know whether he thought that there was somebody else maybe in the house. MR LOWIES What were his words, can you repeat those please? MS MOTAUNG He said that woman is dead. MR LOWIES He was actually referring to a woman? MS MOTAUNG Yes, he was referring to a woman. MR LOWIES And you were the only woman clearly, in that room, in that shack? MS MOTAUNG Mr Lowies, I was the only woman in that shack, but I don't know what was in his mind when he asked that question whether I am still alive or dead. MR LOWIES I want to put it to you that this didn't happen because it does not make sense. MS MOTAUNG This happened to me, Mr Lowies, it is me who heard that. This man was referring to me, that is why I said "mum, I am dying" and I threw myself on the ground. MR LOWIES Did anybody speak after you said "mum, I am dying"? MS MOTAUNG This Zulu man said to him "yes My Lord, when she calls her mother, you must know that she is dead", and the he in turn said "let's go, let's go." MR LOWIES The Zulu man said "let's go, let's go"? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MR LOWIES So it was not the white man that said "let's go, let's go"? MS MOTAUNG It is the white person who said "let's go". The Zulu people were speaking Zulu and white people were speaking in Afrikaans sir. He was called by a white person who was standing on the door, he was calling this person who was stabbing me, saying "let's go, let's go." MR LOWIES Did the Zulu person say "let's go, let's go", in Zulu or in whatever language? MS MOTAUNG He just followed him, he never said any word. MR LOWIES Because I understood your evidence to be, and I specifically asked you that, the person said to the white man, "she is dead when she calls her mother like that" and he said "let's go". That is how I understood your evidence. CHAIRPERSON Well, I didn't hear what was said, but my recollection is that she has repeatedly told us that the white man said "kom, kom, kom", and the person who had been stabbing her, followed. MR LOWIES Chair, she just said and that is why I asked. CHAIRPERSON Yes, did the man who spoke Zulu say "let's go"? MS MOTAUNG No. The one who was speaking Zulu never said "come let's go", the other one was asking him in Afrikaans, it is the one who said "let's go, let's go." He was calling this one who was busy stabbing me and he followed him. MR LOWIES Do you understand Sepedi? MS MOTAUNG No, I do not understand, I only understand it there and there. MR LOWIES Did Kakana understand Sotho? MS MOTAUNG He told me that understand Sotho there and there. MR LOWIES And what do you think, did he understand Sotho? MS MOTAUNG No, I don't know because I was speaking in Sotho. MR LOWIES Well, you see if that was the situation, then you can't deny that Kakana did not understand you from what he told you if you don't know whether he did not understand Sotho? MS MOTAUNG I don't know whether he understood Sotho, whether he understood Sotho or not, I don't know. I don't know his situation, I only know myself. MR LOWIES But one thing is clear, he told you he understood Sotho? You just testified about that? MS CAMBANIS No, she did not. He said ... CHAIRPERSON As far as I recall the witness never said Kakana - well, Kakana did not understand her. The import of her evidence is that Kakana spoke in Sepedi, he would try to speak Sotho as I understand it and whenever he got lost, he would then use the Pedi word. MR LOWIES She also said in cross-examination now, five questions, three questions ago, that he told her he understood Sotho. MS CAMBANIS No, no. Chair, with respect, Kakana said that he understands Sotho there and there. MR LOWIES Exactly. MR LAX In other words, in bits and pieces. That is how it was translated to us. ADV SIGODI Here and there. MR LOWIES Okay, I am confused now. MR LAX If I could help you Mr Lowies, in the same way that she understood Pedi there and there, he understood Sotho there and there. That is what was translated to us. I just understood that to mean in bits and pieces. MR LOWIES I hear what you say, but I also heard her saying in cross-examination that he told her he understood Sotho. Didn't she say that? Let's hear this. Did Kakana tell you that he understands Sotho that day? MS MOTAUNG He said to me he understands Sotho there and there, he only knows certain words in Sotho. MR LOWIES Oh, I see. But isn't it so that the Sepedi word for "outside" and the Sotho word for "outside" is the same? MS MOTAUNG No, they are not the same. MR LOWIES What is the Sotho word for "outside"? MS MOTAUNG (Indistinct), that is the word like she says, (indistinct). MR LOWIES Two words? Now what is the Sepedi word for "outside"? MS MOTAUNG I don't know sir. MR LOWIES Did you use the words [lita kerse]? MS MOTAUNG I never talked about the lighting of the candle, the only thing that I remember is the Apollo light, not the candle. MR LOWIES Isn't the Sotho and the Sepedi words for this expression, the same? MS MOTAUNG I don't know Sepedi sir. MR LOWIES I want to put it to you that you definitely said to Mr Kakana something about you lighting the candle, or is it not true? MS MOTAUNG No sir. MR LOWIES You did not talk about the candle at all when you spoke to Kakana on both occasions? Is that your version? MS MOTAUNG Not at all sir, I never talked about candles. I only mentioned the Apollo light, not a candle. MR LOWIES In your statement you also make reference to, this is now the statement to Kakana, in the statement of Kakana, there is reference in paragraph 2 to "we were outside". Another thing, isn't the Sotho word for "we" and the Sepedi word, the same? CHAIRPERSON I suppose the difficulty we are having at the moment is that you are suggesting to the witness that the Pedi and Sotho word for "outside" is one and the same, she does not know. You are putting to her that for the candles, it is the same. She doesn't know. No one is telling us what is that word. MR LOWIES All right, I take the point. CHAIRPERSON Whilst we are prepared to recognise your linguistic abilities, we would want to know what is that word. If it is going to be put to the witness and if it is something that you want to make a mountain of, because the witness, you know, she says she doesn't know. MR LOWIES I will lead expert evidence regarding that, thank you Chairman. I will leave it at that. I want to put it to you that the version that you have regarding you not understanding Mr Kakana, is something that you heard another witness saying here in the hall. MS MOTAUNG Mr Kakana was talking to me and he said to me, I will try to speak Sotho. He said he would try to speak Sotho there and there, there was no other person, only the two of us. I don't know what other people said, I only know what I said. MR LOWIES Were you inside the hall when Ms Buwa gave evidence? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I was present. MR LOWIES Were you inside when Miriam Molete gave evidence? MS MOTAUNG I was here in the morning and during the day, I left. MR LOWIES Were you here when Florence Molete gave evidence? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I was present. MR LOWIES And isn't the reason why you are describing the white person as having a camouflage uniform with an overcoat, because you heard inter alia Florence and Miriam say so? MS MOTAUNG I saw him with my two eyes. Miriam got injured at her sister's place, I got injured at number 105. I cannot lie about something that did not happen, I am saying this because I got injured. MR LOWIES Do you understand Afrikaans? MS MOTAUNG I understand it there and there. MR LOWIES Do I understand you correctly, you do not understand English at all, was that the crux of your evidence when you were cross-examined about your ability to understand English? MS MOTAUNG I can hear what you say in English, but I am unable to answer or unable to speak in English. MR LOWIES You testified that Mr Kakana told you that he wanted to rectify certain mistakes. What mistakes did he want to rectify? Let me put you in the picture, that was when you were asked by Adv Sigodi regarding the second statement and your reasons that you gave, he said to you that he wants to take a second statement because he wants to rectify some mistakes, are you with me, do you understand the question? MS MOTAUNG He said to me there is a paper on which I did not sign my first name and then he said to me I should come and make another statement, so that I can sign all my names on that statement. MR LOWIES Was that the only mistakes that he wanted to rectify? MS MOTAUNG I repeated my statement, I told him my statement like I did this morning here, so I don't know whether my first statement to him, got lost or he wanted to make mistakes on the first statement, I don't know. MR LOWIES According to what he informed you, this is what I want to know, what did he inform you, what were the mistakes that he wanted to rectify? Was it only the fact that you didn't sign on two pages or whatever? MS MOTAUNG He said to me sir, I should tell him like I did on my first statement, so I don't know whether he was writing this statement again or he was taking another information from the other statement, to the second one, I don't know. He just told me to say to him what I said to him in the first statement. MR LOWIES Did I understand you correctly, when you gave evidence you referred to a certain piece of clothing that covered the face of the white man, but you can't say that it is a balaclava or can you, and I am using the word balaclava? MS MOTAUNG I forgot the name balaclava, I said he used something to protect or to hide his face, because I forgot the name balaclava. I even said it had holes for the eyes, the nose and the mouth. MR LOWIES Put simply, now that you know what a balaclava is, this is actually what he was wearing, correct? MS MOTAUNG That is correct sir. MR LOWIES You only saw one white person there on your version? Is that correct? MS MOTAUNG That is correct sir. MR LOWIES How long did you observe him, was it just a matter of him coming inside saying "is she dead", you falling down and then he went outside, is that how it happened? MS MOTAUNG I recognised him when he entered, but I do not know how many minutes. When he entered, I was looking at him, even when this person was busy attacking me, I was watching this man who had entered from the door because I was surprised, I didn't know what was happening. MR LOWIES What I want to know from you is the sequence of how things happened when you observed this white man as I have put it to you? CHAIRPERSON Quite frankly, I mean, that is not the question that you put to her? If you want the sequence, that is another question because what you ask her is for how long did she have this man under her observation. MR LOWIES I will put it as follows then. CHAIRPERSON If you want to ask her about the sequence, that is another question. MR LOWIES Thank you Chair. I understand what you are saying. The opportunity that you had and the sequence in which things happened, was the following - you were busy being attacked by the person who stabbed you, whilst attacked, the white man came in and he asked your attacker whether you are dead, upon hearing that, you immediately fell to the ground and shouted "mama, I am dying", upon that he immediately said "come on, let's go", is this how things happened? MS CAMBANIS I do not recall that that was her evidence. I think she was being stabbed, on the seventh stab, she then fell and actually Mr Strydom has done the sequence, Mr Lowies has previously done the sequence and I object. CHAIRPERSON I think what he wants to canvass is whether she had this one under his observation for a period, sufficient enough to enable her to properly identify him. I think it is a fair question. MR LOWIES What is your answer? MS MOTAUNG May you please repeat the question, I do not follow your question. MR LOWIES Do I understand you correctly ... CHAIRPERSON The sequence that you put to her, I don't think that is accurate, because as far as I recall, this man entered and then he stood next to the door, and at the time she was being attacked, she was just standing, okay. He was standing, at the time she was being attacked and from what I gather from her now, throughout, she was looking at this man because she was confused, she didn't know what was happening. MR LOWIES I heard her evidence differently in cross-examination. CHAIRPERSON It is not a question of this man coming in and this man saying "is daardie vrou dood" and her throwing herself onto the ground. MR LOWIES Chair, if I understand her evidence correctly, when I started cross-examining, her evidence was that she was already being attacked when the white man came in, when I started cross-examining her. That is the version that I have from her. In other words the assault was already on the go, already in procession when that happened. But ... CHAIRPERSON ... that when the person asked whether I was dead, I was still standing. This was now after, the first thing that you did as I recall, you asked her about the distance where this person was standing, and she gave that it was seven paces, and then how far from the door, and that was given as about in the middle of the door, about a metre, and then the next thing was about lights. And then her answer was, there was light inside coming from the Apollo and this was in response to the question that at the time the door was still closed at some point. MR LAX The light was coming from the behind. CHAIRPERSON The light was coming from behind this man, yes. MR LOWIES Let me rephrase the question to you, I don't want to waste time. Were you already attacked when the white man came in or not? MS MOTAUNG Yes, it had already started. CHAIRPERSON It had, all right. MR LOWIES So it was already on its way, now when he was there, whilst he was there, how many times were you stabbed in his presence, can you say? CHAIRPERSON Can you recall? MS MOTAUNG I do not remember sir, because I remember the last stab, that is after he was asked a question. He stabbed me for the last time, that is when I shouted "my mother", and the other one said "let's go", that was my seventh wound. MR LOWIES Yes, we have it then as follows, he asked whether you are dead and then you are stabbed for the last time and you fell down, is that how it happened? MS CAMBANIS Chair, she clearly says I do not recall how many times, she just said so Mr Lowies. CHAIRPERSON No, no, what Mr Lowies is putting to her is that she said this white man says "is this woman dead" and then she was stabbed for the last time and then she threw herself onto the ground. MR LOWIES I want to know is this now how it happened? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MR LOWIES I am asking this, the first time that you became aware of the man, was he already busy speaking or did you notice him before he started talking? MS MOTAUNG I saw him while he was standing on the door, before he could say anything, I had already seen him. The time he spoke, I had already seen him. MR LOWIES I see. Now then you fell to the ground and is it immediately after that, that he said on your version "kom, kom"? CHAIRPERSON She threw herself onto the ground and then the man who spoke Zulu said "when you hear her calling her mother, she must be dead" and thereafter the man said "kom, kom". MR LOWIES Now, did they leave immediately after the man said she is calling her mother, that means she is dead? MS MOTAUNG Yes, they left when they realised that I was on the ground, because I think that they thought I was dead and they left. MR LOWIES But when you were on the ground, were you still looking at this white man or could you not see him at that stage? MS MOTAUNG How could I have seen him, because they had left and I was on the ground at that time. CHAIRPERSON I think what he wants to find out is whether after you had thrown yourself onto the ground, could you still see the white man? MS MOTAUNG No. MR LOWIES I want to put it to you that you were not at all in a position to see whether there was a white man as you have testified, because there was not sufficient light if it was coming from behind him. MS MOTAUNG Sir, I am saying I saw him clearly with my eyes. Like I am looking at you, I can see that you are a white person. MR LOWIES Do you still reside at 105 Slovo Park? MS MOTAUNG We have left that place, the place is now being rearranged. CHAIRPERSON Does that mean there is no more a place called Slovo Park? MS MOTAUNG Slovo Park is still there, but they have now shifted us from that place to another place, so there is a main road at that place where we used to stay, in other words they have now rearranged the area. MR LOWIES So the address 105 Slovo Park does not exist any more, is that what you are saying? MS MOTAUNG Where I used to stay, it was 105, there are people who stay there. The place now has been rearranged, in straight lines, so that there are streets like we are sitting here in a line. MR LOWIES Are you part of the Kulumani Support Group? MS MOTAUNG Yes sir. MR LOWIES Is Meshack Jabulani Ramaponopi known to you? MS MOTAUNG I know him, but I don't know him well. We never talk to each other. MR LOWIES Is he part of the Support Group? MS MOTAUNG Well, I don't know. MR LOWIES John Buwa, is he known to you? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I know him. MR LOWIES Is he part of the Support Group? MS MOTAUNG I know his mother who is a member of that Group. MR LOWIES Is he part of the group, do you know? MS MOTAUNG His mother is a member, I don't know whether he is a member. MR LOWIES Is Alfie the name of his mother? MS MOTAUNG Yes. MR LOWIES Is Florina Dlamini part of this Group? MS MOTAUNG Yes, he is a member. MR LOWIES No, it is a she, unless the Interpreter made a mistake. Florina, isn't it a lady? Sorry, do you know, Florina, is she a lady? MS MOTAUNG Yes, she is a lady. MR LOWIES Emily Mashinini, is she part of the Support Group? MS MOTAUNG Yes, she is a member. MR LOWIES Johannes Mbatha? MS MOTAUNG He is also a member of Kulumani. MR LOWIES Mr Wilson Baloyi, do you know whether he is? MS MOTAUNG He is a member of Kulumani Support Group. MR LOWIES Mr Klaas Matope, is he a member? INTERPRETER Can you please repeat sir. MR LOWIES Mr Klaas Matope? MS MOTAUNG Yes, he is a member. MR LOWIES Mr Simon Moloi, is he a member of the Support Group? MS MOTAUNG I have never seen him attending the meetings, therefore I don't know whether he is a member or not, I have never seen him in a meeting. MR LOWIES Do you know him? MS MOTAUNG Yes, I know him. MR LOWIES Miriam Molete and Florence Molete, do you know whether they are members of the Support Group? MS MOTAUNG Yes, they are members. MR LOWIES Anna Mbatha, is she a member of the Support Group? MS MOTAUNG Yes, she is a member, but I have never seen her in a meeting. MR LOWIES Hilda Monekwane, is she a member of the Support Group, do you know? Do you know Hilda? MS MOTAUNG I know her by Mrs Monekwane, I don't know her first name as Hilda. MR LOWIES Do you know whether she is a member of the Support Group? MS MOTAUNG I don't know the name Hilda, I only know Mrs Monekwane. If she is Hilda, yes, I used to see her in the meeting. MR LOWIES Diana Manyeka, do you know her, is she a member? MS MOTAUNG I have never seen her at a meeting. MR LOWIES Maria Mashepe, do you know her? MS MOTAUNG I don't know her. MR LOWIES It may be Mashudu, do you know Diana Mashudu? My mistake Chairman, Maria Mashudu. MS MOTAUNG I don't know her. MR LOWIES I have instructions to put to you that this version that there were white people on the scene on the night of the attack, is not true and it is a result of a conspiracy. MS MOTAUNG I cannot lie because on my third occasion when we went to Pretoria, we were driving with Mr Moloi's kombi, we didn't know who called us there. When we arrived or when I arrived in Pretoria, Lucky Kakana asked us what we wanted there then we told them that we were called and Simon Moloi took out a letter that indicated that we were called. They looked at this letter and then thereafter they said that we were called by Mr Strydom. That Mr Strydom came out and he said yes, he has called us. He called us in a room there in Pretoria, we were following him, he was alone. We followed him and when we arrived in that room, he closed the door and then he said to us, his people says they have seen whites, so today his people now have been left alone, deserted in other words, so those white people don't come forward, so now when you say I have just made up that story, I don't know why you say so, because I went to Pretoria. We talked about this with Mr Strydom. He even said to us that he had seen our statements that we have mentioned to the Police, he said now his people have been left alone, so I don't understand why today they say they were not accompanied by the Police and the white people. MR LOWIES So he said to you his people said they saw whites? MS MOTAUNG That is correct sir. MR LOWIES Were you also called in by the Judge as a result of this? MS MOTAUNG No, I was called by Mr Strydom. MR LOWIES Did you then reply to him and say to him, yes this is true or this is not true? MS MOTAUNG He was telling us, that is Mr Strydom, he told us that that was what was said by his people. He even took out a R50-00, he gave it to me, I was with Florence, he said we should go and buy food. When we were about to leave, he gave us R150-00, each one of us. I am surprised that when his people say there were no whites, he said so. CHAIRPERSON Did you say that he gave you a sum of R150-00? MS MOTAUNG He gave us R50-00 firstly and we went to buy food. CHAIRPERSON I understand that, what I wanted to find out, confine yourself to the question, did you say that Mr Strydom also gave you a sum of R150-00? MS MOTAUNG Yes, he gave us R150-00 each one of us, except that R50-00 for food. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And he took this money out of his own pocket, from his pocket? MS MOTAUNG There was a black bag, a big one, the one used for books. He took out this money from that bag, I saw him with my eyes. MR LOWIES Why did he give you the money, did he say? MS MOTAUNG I think he was giving us pocket money because every time we went to Pretoria, we would be given R10-00 as pocket money, maybe he was giving us that as pocket money, I don't know. MR LOWIES What did he want from you? I am sorry, sorry - did he say to you why he was giving the money to you? MS MOTAUNG No, the only thing that he said was that he will call us again when there is a need. He didn't tell us why he gave us that money. MR LOWIES Did he tell you why he wanted you there? You came all the way, did he say why he wanted you? MS MOTAUNG He said to us I think he wanted us to know that his people mentioned those whites that we also mentioned in our statements, I really don't know why he wanted us. MR LOWIES MS MOTAUNG Each and every person has his own understanding, you have your own understanding and I have my own understanding. MR LOWIES Did he want you to confirm that there were white people or not, white people or Police? MS MOTAUNG There was nothing to confirm because they had our statements. They could have asked us, basing their questions on the statements like you are doing now. MR LOWIES No, but he did not convey to you "listen people, I want you to confirm that there were white people and you may have to give evidence such as this", white people or Police? MS MOTAUNG He never asked us to give our opinions, he never wanted our opinions, he just told us that. He never asked for our opinions. MR LOWIES And then he gave you money and he left? MS MOTAUNG Yes, he gave us money and then we left, and then he said he will call us, we have been waiting for him to call us. MR LOWIES So he knew that you were there and he knew that you were called to come to Pretoria? CHAIRPERSON Mr Lowies, you've got your answers now and I think your colleague Mr Strydom, will agree with me that this is just not relevant. He is the one who objected to this evidence being led. MR LOWIES I think it is relevant Chair, but I will leave it at that. I want to put the following to you - your version regarding what happened there, is not true, it is something that you sucked out of your thumb over the past few days. CHAIRPERSON Which aspect, because you have put to her on more than two occasions that she has insisted she saw the white men, are you now referring to what happened in Pretoria? MR LOWIES Yes, but I will put more detail, I agree with you. Your evidence that Mr Strydom handed you money, is not correct? MS MOTAUNG It is true, he gave me, Rebecca Motaung, R150-00, not you. MR LOWIES Did he give each and everybody that you - were there, R150-00? CHAIRPERSON She said that. MS MOTAUNG Yes, all of us, the eight of us. MR LOWIES When was the last time that you attended a meeting of the Support Group, Kulumani? MS MOTAUNG It can be three months ago, that was the last time this hearing convened here, because that time I was busy shifting my shack, so I was unable to attend the meetings thereafter. MR LOWIES I want to put it to you that you and others came together and concocted the story about two things, firstly there were white people or Policemen, secondly Mr Strydom admitted that to you? MS MOTAUNG No, I am telling you the truth. I cannot lie and say what person was there, I cannot lie about Mr Strydom. I cannot invent a story with other people who never got injured, I got injured. I can even show you below my breast, I still have those wounds, they are still painful even today. MR LOWIES I have nothing further. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOWIES CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Pretorius? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS Ms Motaung, how long did you live in Slovo Park before the attack took place? MS MOTAUNG I arrived there in 1991, although I forgot the date. It was already a year at Slovo Park, a year and some few months. MS PRETORIUS You knew at the time that there were problems in Boipatong and Slovo Park with the comrades and the people from the IFP? MS MOTAUNG I never witnessed that conflict, but I heard people saying that there was a conflict. MS PRETORIUS So you knew about the conflict? MS MOTAUNG I heard people saying that, that there was a conflict between Boipatong residents and the people who were staying at kwaMadala hostel, but I never witnessed that with my eyes. MS PRETORIUS Did you witness the comrades guarding the Boipatong and Slovo Park? INTERPRETER May you please repeat the question again, Ma'am? MS PRETORIUS I am sorry Mr Interpreter, did you see the comrades guarding Slovo Park and Boipatong? MS MOTAUNG I don't know who are comrades because even my husband would be called and they would address him as comrade. I don't know whether the comrades are people who belong to a particular organisation or all the people who stayed in Boipatong were comrades, I really don't know. MS PRETORIUS Did your husband go and help guard Boipatong and Slovo Park at any stage? MS MOTAUNG Yes, when he was at home because he was working shifts. MS PRETORIUS Do you know against what he was guarding Boipatong and Slovo Park? MS MOTAUNG I don't know whether he was guarding at Slovo Park or Boipatong because every time when he goes out on guard, I will be left at home sleeping. He told me one day that when he attended the meeting, they were told that all men should go and be on guard, that is patrol, because there might be an attack. MS PRETORIUS Did he tell you an attack from where and by whom? MS MOTAUNG He said we might be attacked by people who were residents of kwaMadala hostel. MS PRETORIUS Did he tell you why? MS MOTAUNG No. MS PRETORIUS Did you know why you would be attacked by people from kwaMadala hostel? MS MOTAUNG No, I did not know Ma'am. The only thing that I heard is that there was a conflict, both parties were not on good terms but I never knew the reason. MS PRETORIUS Did you know that most people in kwaMadala hostel belonged to the IFP? MS MOTAUNG No, I did not know in which organisations individuals belonged, because I was not involved in politics at that time. MS PRETORIUS Was Boipatong and Slovo Park known as an ANC stronghold, in other words let me explain it to you that most people in Boipatong and Slovo Park were either supporters or members of the ANC, was that known? MS MOTAUNG No, not all the people. MS PRETORIUS I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ma'am. Yes, Mr Da Silva? MR DA SILVA I have no questions Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chair. Ms Motaung, I act on behalf of Mr Pedro Peens and it is my instructions to put to you that he was not involved with the Boipatong massacre, if you have an answer? MS MOTAUNG I don't know that person you are talking about. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Mey? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEY Thank you Mr Chairperson. Ms Motaung, I just want to put to you, I am acting on behalf of Mr Greeff and Mr Chaka ... CHAIRPERSON Would people in the hall, please keep quiet. MR MEY It is my instructions to put to you that they were not involved in the Boipatong massacre. MS MOTAUNG Well, I don't know, I don't know those people. MR MEY Thank you, thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEY CHAIRPERSON Thank you. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM Chair, maybe just before re-examination, I objected when the evidence was led, but now it came out and I must make certain statements just to this witness which I wanted to avoid, but now that it is on record, I will have to state it. You said that when you came to Pretoria, I had a statement of you in my possession? MS MOTAUNG You told us that you had our statements, it is you who told us. I did not see them, you said so. MR STRYDOM: I just want to put to you that I never had any statement of you in my possession during the criminal trial, those statements belonged to the State and they did not hand over the statements when you were made available as a witness. MS MOTAUNG When we were in Pretoria, you said you have those statements, now today you say you did not have those statements, so I don't know what you are saying. MR STRYDOM I also want to put to you that I never told you that my instructions from the accused, whom I represented, were that whites were involved. I can just put to you that the instruction was that they weren't there, so obviously they wouldn't be able to say whites were involved or not. Do you have any comment? MS MOTAUNG You said that Mr Strydom, that is when I knew that you were Mr Strydom. I knew you since we met in Pretoria, I know you used to comb your hair backwards. MR STRYDOM I still do. MS MOTAUNG I thank you. MR STRYDOM I want to put to you that I never paid you R150-00 as you said. MS MOTAUNG Mr Strydom, I am Rebecca Motaung, the one that you gave the R50-00 so that I should go and buy food. I bought a chicken, a whole chicken and bread rolls and a coke. I still know you although I was still young at that time, I have gained weight because of this injuries. MR STRYDOM You testified that you did not go into the court when you went to Pretoria, is that correct? MS MOTAUNG I have never entered the court. MR STRYDOM But don't you remember the occasion when Abednego Mabuza and the other people that came with you, went into the court? MS MOTAUNG I have never been with that Mabuza you are talking about, I have never been to court. MR STRYDOM I just want to put to you and that is the end of it, you were brought into court and Mr Botha, the Advocate that appeared in the matter, mentioned your name, Rebecca Motaung as one of the people in court, that appears on page 3210 of the record. There it was indicated by you amongst the group, that you did not want to speak to us, the Defence Advocates. Do you remember anything of that? MS MOTAUNG No, I never said that sir. The only thing that I know is that we went to Pretoria, Lucky asked us who called us, we gave him the letter and he told us that you are the person who called us. I remember following you, you had a suitcase in your hand. CHAIRPERSON Could I have a look at the record please. MR STRYDOM Apart from my name, can you remember the name of any one of the other Defence Advocates? MS MOTAUNG I don't know whether he was an Advocate, I only remember a white lady with long hair. I don't know whether she was an Advocate but she was there, she was talking to the people that is the accused. MR STRYDOM Do you remember Adv Vic Botha? MS MOTAUNG No, I only know that lady and yourself. MR STRYDOM I've got no further questions, thank you, apart from stating, I am putting to you that you are lying about this. MS MOTAUNG No sir, I am not lying. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Ms Cambanis? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS Yes, thank you Chair. Ma'am, would you please tell us what is the Kulumani Support Group? MS MOTAUNG It is a body that represents all the people who got injured. All the people who were affected during that attack, it does not represent certain organisations. It is an impartial organisation. MS CAMBANIS And do you remember when you first began attending meetings at the Kulumani Support Group? MS MOTAUNG I don't remember because it has been a long time since I started attending their meetings. MS CAMBANIS Could you estimate how many members there are in the Support Group? MS MOTAUNG There are many members, that is not only the people who got injured in 1992, even people who got injured way back in the 1960's, every person who got injured or who was beaten or who lost his loved one, is allowed to join this organisation. MS CAMBANIS Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Who lost their loved ones, got injured during an unrest? MS MOTAUNG That is correct sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS CAMBANIS Nothing further Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, did I omit you? MR MAPOMA I have no questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON No, I am not suggesting that you should ask any questions. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions? MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Chairperson, no questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV SIGODI No questions, Chairperson. MR LAX Ditto Chair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, okay, very well, thank you Ma'am, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED MR MALINDI Chairperson, I will be leading the next witness, I see that the time is ten to five, I don't know whether she should be called now. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Do you have an estimate how long the evidence in chief is going to be? MR MALINDI Chairperson, it should not last longer than 15 minutes, 15 to 20 minutes, I think. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Malindi, you may call the next witness. MR MALINDI Chairperson, the next witness will be Anna Mbatha. MS MBATHA I will speak in Sotho. MR MALINDI Give us your full names. MS MBATHA (Indistinct) Mbatha. ANNA MBATHA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON In giving evidence Ma'am, will you please try and speak up if you can, do you understand? MS MBATHA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Malindi? EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI Ms Mbatha, in June 1992, where did you reside? MS MBATHA I was staying at Slovo Park. MR MALINDI What was the number of your house? MS MBATHA I don't remember well, but I think it was 93. MR MALINDI During June 1992, do you remember an incident that took place on the 17th? MS MBATHA Yes, I do remember. MR MALINDI What was that incident? MS MBATHA The incident that I remember, we were asleep at home, I was woken up by my sister, I didn't hear anything. MR MALINDI Before you relate the incident, who were with you in the house? MS MBATHA I was with my mother and my elder sister and my sister's child. MR MALINDI Can you give your mother's name, your sister's name and your sister's child's name? MS MBATHA My mother is Paulina Mbatha, my sister is Elizabeth Mbatha, I am Anna Mbatha and Monica Mbatha. MR MALINDI You said that you were ... CHAIRPERSON I didn't quite get the name of her sister. MS MBATHA Elizabeth Mbatha. CHAIRPERSON Elizabeth? And is Monica your sister's child? MS MBATHA Yes, that is Elizabeth's child. MR MALINDI You say you were already sleeping when you were made aware that something was happening? MS MBATHA Yes, I was woken up by my sister and she told me about what was happening outside. She wanted to know whether I hear what was happening outside. MR MALINDI As a result of your sister waking you up, what happened thereafter? MS MBATHA All of us woke up. I was on my bed. MR MALINDI With what intention? MS MBATHA I wanted to peep through a hole. MR MALINDI Did you do so or did you not? MS MBATHA Yes, I did. Then I saw two attackers. MR MALINDI How far were they from you? MS MBATHA They were at where that wall is. That wall that I am pointing. CHAIRPERSON Which wall is she pointing? MS MBATHA That is the wall where we are sitting. MR MALINDI She is indicating to the part of the wall up to where the curtain has been drawn, the stage curtain. CHAIRPERSON Okay, just behind Counsel? MR MALINDI Just behind Counsel. CHAIRPERSON Okay. What is the distance again? MR MALINDI About ten paces Mr Chairperson. MR STRYDOM I would agree with that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MALINDI You say you saw somebody being stabbed, do you know who was being stabbed? MR LAX Sorry, I didn't hear that. MR MALINDI Chairperson, it may not have been interpreted, but I will start from ... CHAIRPERSON Just take her back again. MR MALINDI I will Chairperson. When you were peeping through this little hole, you talked about two attackers. MS MBATHA Yes. MR MALINDI What did you observe from then on? MS MBATHA I saw them stabbing Rebecca Matope. MR MALINDI Who is Rebecca Matope? MS MBATHA It is Klaas Matope's wife. MR MALINDI Did you know them? MS MBATHA I knew Klaas Matope's wife. MR MALINDI And how did you know her? MS MBATHA We were neighbours. MR MALINDI You saw her being stabbed, can you then relate what happened onwards? MS MBATHA They were stabbing her, she was holding a nine month old baby. They were stabbing her and two of these attackers passed. MR MALINDI Were these the same two attackers that were stabbing Rebecca Matope or not? MS MBATHA No, that is the others. These two passed when this other two were busy stabbing Rebecca, so these other two were passing, they went there to demolish the shack. MR MALINDI Which shack did they get demolished? MS MBATHA Our shack. MR MALINDI At the time that your shack was being attacked, what was the result of this attack? MS MBATHA They kicked the door twice, but the door did not open. MR MALINDI Did they succeed or did they not succeed in gaining entry? MS MBATHA They did not succeed in gaining entry because we had a chain. MR MALINDI The two attackers that you saw attacking Rebecca Matope and the two attackers that you saw running passed, whom you believe are the ones that attacked or tried to gain access into your shack, can you describe them to the Committee? MS MBATHA The other one that I saw, was a white person but he even said "open the door" referring to my mother. MR MALINDI What language was this person speaking? MS MBATHA He was speaking in Afrikaans. MR MALINDI Could you describe any form of clothing that you may have observed of these four attackers that you observed closely? MS MBATHA He wore a light blue trousers that is when he entered from the door, and he had an overcoat, although I do not remember the colour of that overcoat. MR MALINDI Which one is this one that you are describing as having worn blue pants? MS MBATHA That is this white person. MR MALINDI You say this person used your mother's name Ma'am Tani? MS MBATHA Yes. MR MALINDI How could he have known your mother's name? MS MBATHA He heard when Rebecca shouted saying "Ma'am Tani, please open for me, because I am dying." MR MALINDI You testified that then there were attempts to break down the door? MS MBATHA That is correct. MR MALINDI So these two attackers did not gain entry into your shack at all? MS MBATHA They ended up gaining entry into the shack, they broke the other side of the shack, that is where the cupboard was standing and that cupboard fell inside and they gained entry into the shack. MR MALINDI How many of the attackers do you think, gained entry into the shack? MS MBATHA Three of them. MR MALINDI Are you able to describe any one or all of them? CHAIRPERSON Let's start with the first one who you had begin to describe what he was wearing. You said he wore, did you say a light blue trousers? Light blue pair of trousers? MS MBATHA Yes sir. CHAIRPERSON And did you say in an overcoat? MS MBATHA Yes, sir. CHAIRPERSON Anything else that that person wore? MS MBATHA This white person also had a white belt around him. ADV SIGODI White or wide? MS MBATHA White. CHAIRPERSON Over him? Where? MS MBATHA On his head. CHAIRPERSON Yes, okay. MR MALINDI And this white belt, could you tell what it was made of? MS MBATHA Well, I am unable to explain or describe, because I only saw it on his head. MR MALINDI And then you testified that about three of the attackers gained entry after breaking down one side of the shack? CHAIRPERSON Just before you go to the next one, is that all you can tell us about the first, the white man that you saw, about what he was wearing? MS MBATHA No. I only saw those things that I have mentioned because that time they had already demolished the shack from the side and they were kicking things inside. CHAIRPERSON Was his face covered? MS MBATHA No, although I did not see him facially because he was not facing me, I could only see him from his back. He had a torch in his hand. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The others? MS MBATHA I could not see clearly how these other people were dressed because we were in the bedroom, trying to hide ourselves. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand you then to say that you cannot tell us what clothing the other two persons wore? MS MBATHA Yes, they were not facing the light, the only one that we saw clearly, was this white person. MR LAX Can I just clarify something please? I am a little puzzled now, you said something just a short while ago in your evidence when you started describing this man and you used these words, you said "he entered through the door", I wrote that down. I was just a bit puzzled by that, which person entered through the door? MS MBATHA They did not enter through the door, because we had a chain around that door, they broke the side of the shack. That is next to the door, that is the place where we had placed our cupboard and our cupboard fell inside and then they gained entry. MR LAX Just one last thing, where did you - you said you were hiding and you didn't see the other two, how was it that you saw this one in particular? MS MBATHA I could see him like we are seeing, like I am sitting here, you can see, like you see through this curtains, so we went there because we wanted to go out. But after realising that we could not do so, we came back, that is when I saw them. CHAIRPERSON You were where? You were in the bedroom, where did you go, did you go in the bedroom? MS MBATHA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And where did you go, did you go to the kitchen? MS MBATHA We went to the kitchen. CHAIRPERSON Right, you went to the kitchen and ... MS MBATHA I just wanted to describe this house, it was a three roomed house, we were using curtains like I am explaining, to close. INTERPRETER We divided these rooms with curtains, that is what she is saying. MS MBATHA We had a curtain in our dining room, but because the curtain was washed that day, we didn't have a curtain there, that is how we managed to see that white person. When they entered, the three of them we went back because we were trying to go out. CHAIRPERSON When you saw the white man, you could see the white man from the bedroom because there was no curtain? MS MBATHA We looked through the curtain, there was no curtain dividing the kitchen and the bedroom, because it was washed. They had demolished that side and the light was coming through that side. In the dining room, there were no curtains so we managed to see the person. CHAIRPERSON Okay. You are saying that you - and then did you leave the bedroom to go to the kitchen? MS MBATHA We didn't even manage to get to the kitchen, we ended up in the dining room, that is when we saw them gaining entry. This white person was in front and the others were coming behind him. CHAIRPERSON So from the bedroom, you went to the dining room? MS MBATHA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And when you were in the dining room, that is when they entered with the white man in front? MS MBATHA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then you ran back into the bedroom? MS MBATHA Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Malindi. MR MALINDI Thank you Chairperson. At this stage you say that you retreated into the bedroom part of the shack? MS MBATHA That is correct. MR MALINDI Once these men were inside your shack, do you know what they did inside, did they destroy or attack anyone? MS MBATHA They destroyed property but they didn't injure us. MR MALINDI Did you notice if they were armed in any way? MS MBATHA The other one had a spear. MR MALINDI And it was not used on anyone? MS MBATHA It was never used because he tried to use it, he tried to stab me and then I ran when my sister pushed me into the bedroom. MR MALINDI After these people had caused this destruction, did they leave? MS MBATHA Before they left, this white person was still looking with his torch around the house, but this torch was not giving him enough light, for him to see. MR MALINDI As a result of his failing torch, did they try to do anything? MS MBATHA The black man tried to use his matches, but he was unable to do so because the stick went off. MR MALINDI Is there anything that you want to tell the Committee that these men did while they were inside the shack? MS MBATHA Yes. After this match stick went off, he tried to light a piece of tissue paper, he was unable to do so because it went off as well. MR MALINDI And then what happened to this man eventually, is there anything else that you want to add? MS MBATHA When they heard noise from Emily Ramaeletsi's place, they went out because they heard a gunshot coming from our neighbour. MR LAX Can you just repeat that name please. MS MBATHA That is Emily Ramaeletsi. I am sorry it is not Emily, it is Evelyn Ramaeletsi. They went to Evelyn Ramaeletsi's place, that is when they heard the noise, then we were left with this one. MR MALINDI Which one are you referring to? MS MBATHA This one was speaking, when we went out of the bedroom, thinking that they had gone, I realised that he was still there and he could see that I was under the table. He tried to stab me with a speak, so my mother was holding me from the back, he pushed me backwards. MR MALINDI Is it your mother who pushed you backwards? MS MBATHA I was under the table, my mother was holding me with my clothes, from behind. When this man tried to stab me, my sister pushed us back into the bedroom. MR MALINDI And at that stage, are you saying that only one person, one attacker, was in the shack? MS MBATHA He was alone, he was also abusing us, saying that we are Mandela's dogs, in Zulu. MR MALINDI This one attacker that remained, what happened after he tried to stab you and your sister pushed you into the bedroom side? MS MBATHA He went out, he went around the back, following the other people, the other attackers who went around. MR MALINDI After the attackers had left, did you and your family do anything? MS MBATHA My mother went out with my sister, before they could do so, I lifted my baby, who was hacked, but she was still alive and then I took her to my mother's bed. MR MALINDI Are you referring to Rebecca Matope's child? MS MBATHA Yes. MR MALINDI Where did you, or how did you come to take her inside? MS MBATHA After this last attacker had run around, I did not waste time, then I went to the baby and I took the baby to the bed. That is my mother's bed. MR MALINDI After you assisted this baby, is there anything else that happened? MS MBATHA Before that, the late Rebecca Matope tried to crawl into the bedroom. MR MALINDI Was there any assistance that came to the injured people? MS MBATHA That is after all these people had left. MR MALINDI What kind of help was that? MS MBATHA The ambulance came. MR MALINDI This attack upon your shack and Rebecca Matope and the baby, were there any other people who were injured in this attack, I don't want you to describe how they were injured, but just name them. MS MBATHA At our shack, no one got injured because we managed to escape. I went to my brother, that is Johannes Mbatha's place. MR MALINDI Why did you go to Johannes Mbatha's place? MS MBATHA That is how the situation was, so I was just going there to find out whether they were not injured. MR MALINDI Do you remember in what house number they were, your brother Johannes Mbatha? MS MBATHA That is 131. MR MALINDI When you got to house 131, were they saved from this attack or did they also suffer a similar attack? MS MBATHA When I arrived there I asked his daughter, I wanted to know where my brother was. Then she said to me her mother was under the table and she was speechless. I tried to wake her up, I was unable to do so. MR MALINDI Chairperson, I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI CHAIRPERSON At this stage, we will adjourn. Shall we start at half past eight tomorrow, just to see whether we can finish the witness. Okay, yes. We will resume at half past eight tomorrow morning and then may I see Counsel please. Ma'am, would you - we cannot complete your evidence at this stage, would you come back tomorrow so that we can try and finish with your evidence? MS MBATHA Yes, I will do so. CHAIRPERSON Yes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS