amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-05-04 TZANEEN 1 MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA, MUTHUPHEI LEDWICK RAMALIGELA AM 3731/96; 3734/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53390&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99050406_tza_990504tz.htm CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon everybody. I apologise for the delay in the start of this matter, had certain logistical problems. One of the applicants required a legal representation and Mr van Rensburg has very kindly, on short notice, stepped in, for which we are grateful indeed. Before we start, I would just like to introduce the panel to you. On my right is Judge Khampepe. Judge Khampepe is a member of the Amnesty Committee and she is attached to the Cape Court. On my left is Advocate Bosman, also a member of the Amnesty Committee, also from the Cape, and I am Selwyn Miller, Judge from the Eastern Cape attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court. These proceedings will be simultaneously translated, and in order to benefit from the translation you have to be in possession of one of these devices. They are available from the sound technician in front, so if you wish to benefit from the translation, please make sure you have one of these devices. Translation will be English and Venda. Is that correct? I would like to at this stage ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record. MR MEYER: Mr Chairman, the surname is Meyer B.H. I am practising from the Pretoria Bar and have been instructed by the firm Booyens, du Preez and Boshof, in Pietersburg, and I represent the first four applicants, if I can call it that: General Ramushwana, Director Ramaligela, Mr Nesamari and Mr Magana. Managa, I beg your pardon. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Meyer. Mr Janse van Rensburg? MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. My name is van Rensburg S.J., from Kriek & Van Rensburg Attorneys, Tzaneen, and I act on behalf of the State Attorney, Pretoria, and I represent the fifth applicant, Mr Carlson Netshivale. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. My name is Lula Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Truth Commission. I will also be assisting the victims in this matter. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Right Mr Meyer are you ...? MR MEYER: I'm ready to proceed, Mr Chairman. As my first applicant I call General Gabriel Ramushwana. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ramushwana, do you have any objection to taking the oath? MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON It's very hot here in Tzaneen, please if you wish to remove your jackets, feel free to do so. Mr Meyer? EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman. General Ramushwana, if we can start off first by, if you can just put on record your current occupation and where you live. MR RAMUSHWANA: Mr Chairman, I'm at the moment retired. I'm a farmer, and I am resident in Messina. MR MEYER: General Ramushwana during the early 1980's you were a member of the Venda National Force. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: That's quite correct Mr Chair. MR MEYER: And what was your position there? MR RAMUSHWANA: I was then the Deputy Commander of the Security Branch, with the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel. MR MEYER: At that stage the previous homeland of Venda was still independent. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: Quite right. It obtained independence during 1979. MR MEYER: What was the political situation like during the early 1980's and more specifically around 1981 and '82? MR RAMUSHWANA: Between '79 '82 things were reasonably peaceful in the former homeland, although there was obviously a large group of people who were against Venda opting for independence. MR MEYER: Was there pre-political movement in the sense that the previous liberation movements for instance the ANC, Azapo etc. were they allowed in the country? MR RAMUSHWANA: The homeland had not abolished the existence of the liberation movements but had adopted laws which were forbidding the activities of liberation movements in South Africa. MR MEYER: Now you at some stage received information that there was a possibility of police stations being attacked by the liberation movements. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes we had received information from our counterparts in South Africa then that there was a possibility of attacks by the members of the military wing of either the ANC or PAC. MR MEYER: And is it correct that on the 22nd sorry, the 26th of October 1981, at the police station in the town of Sibasa came under attack. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes the police station was attacked at about 22h00 hours. There was a massive explosion, a subsequent fire in which a large part of the police station was destroyed. MR MEYER: Can you describe to the committee how the attack was performed? MR RAMUSHWANA: Mr Chair it is going to be a bit difficult for me to have a vivid recollection of what actually transpired but the report that I received then was that there were three armed men who arrived at the police station at that time, at 22h00 hours, and one pretended to have been injured or attacked by other people because he had bandages all around his head and arm, left arm, and he had an overcoat. And then he told the policeman at the gate that he wanted to report a case and then the policeman opened the gate. At that time if I could just explain to the Commission the entire police force was actually warned that all members of the police force at that particular time should keep all their gates and doors of the police stations securely locked. So at the time when this person arrived the gate was locked, and at the request of this person the policeman opened the gate and this person entered into the police station and then when he was inside the police station he told the sergeant, the charge office sergeant behind the counter, that he was assaulted by someone. Now when the sergeant wanted to obtain a statement from him he then opened his coat, unbuttoned his coat and then took out an AK47 and started shooting at the police station, at the policemen. Two policemen were fatally wounded there and then the gas bottles in the charge office which caught fire, and some dockets which were lying in the storeroom also caught fire and then the whole charge office was engulfed in fire. One policeman who was outside was shot at by two other people who were also armed with AK47's. And then he was also fatally wounded. He eventually left the police force because he was medically unfit to perform his duties. Those two other policemen were burnt to ashes inside the charge office. An RPG7 was used too, to finish up the charge office. MR MEYER: If we can just get it clear, is it correct that two policemen died and the third one was severely injured? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: And this RPG37 you referred is that some sort of rocket launcher? MR RAMUSHWANA: It was a rocket launcher, there was a rocket launcher there, the RPG7 rocket. MR MEYER: What was the reaction of the then government of Venda to this attack? MR RAMUSHWANA: The then president, it was the late President Mpepi summoned all the senior officers and the Commissioner of Police and then told us all that we must go out and find the people who were responsible for the attack on the police station. MR MEYER: Where you directly involved in the investigation of this case? MR RAMUSHWANA: Originally no, I was not in charge of the case. There was one Captain Sifuwa, he has since died, he is the person who was charged with the investigation. I came in at a later stage towards the end, I think it was the beginning of '82. I only kept constant observation, constant checks, on the investigations which Captain Ramaligela then, and Captain Sifuwa were doing. MR MEYER: As you took charge of the investigation who was the other, if I can call them team members, of the investigation team? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay, we had the then Captain Ramaligela, Warrant Officer Managa. CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell Captain who was there? MR RAMUSHWANA: Ramaligela, he is now a director there. CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell that please? Is that the person who appears as being the fourth applicant? Okay. MR RAMUSHWANA: Right and then Warrant Officer Managa and ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Is that M-A-N-A-G-A ? MR RAMUSHWANA: That's right. It is pronounced Managa in Venda. With a dot on top of the 'N'. The first 'N'. MR MEYER: So it was Captain Ramaligela, Warrant Officer Managa and who else? MR RAMUSHWANA: And Nesamari, and then Captain Sifuwa who has since died. MR MEYER: Now during your investigation what information did you receive with regard to the persons that might have been involved in the attack? JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Meyer? Wasn't Mr Netshivale a part of the investigating team? MR RAMUSHWANA: I am now referring to the senior persons who were actually forming the investigation unit in respect of that particular case unit. JUDGE KHAMPEPE Yes. MR RAMUSHWANA But then you had other subordinates who were lower than the rank of Warrant Officer of which I can not call them, I cannot, they cannot form part of the investigation. They are only from time to time called in to assist. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Okay. What was the rank of Sifuwa? MR RAMUSHWANA: Sifuwa was a Captain. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You may proceed Mr Meyer. MR MEYER: Thank you Judge Khampepe. MR RAMUSHWANA: During our investigation we found out that persons who had physically carried out the attack were one Mmbengeni Kone, David Malada, John Mwendamutsu Mamabolo ...(intervention) JUDGE KHAMPEPE Could you spell ...(indistinct) MR RAMUSHWANA: I could do that. I don't know whether I should use the military terminology to spell them or should I ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON: Just use the alphabet. MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay fine thank you. Mmbengeni is M-M-B-E-N-G-E-N-I; Kone K-O-N-E - that's the surname; David Malada M-A-L-A-D-A and John Mwendamutsu, Mwendamutsu is M-W-E-N-D-A-M-U-T-S-U Mamabolo - M-A-M-A-B-O-L-O. Now investigation revealed that these three men had infiltrated South Africa from Zimbabwe after receiving some training in weapons outside the country. Investigations revealed that Kone and Malada had already visited the Lutheran Church Centre at Busto which is plus minus seven kilometres from Sibasa during April 1981. MR MEYER: General if I can just take you back a bit. The persons who were arrested which are listed in your application in paragraph 50, several pastors of the Lutheran Church, page 31 of the bundle of documents, now those people were arrested by yourself or your team, your subordinates, on what basis were they arrested? MR RAMUSHWANA: We had received information that the van belonging to the Lutheran Church Centre at Busto had been used to convey the three armed men to attack as well as the vehicle of Isaac Sipiwa to attack the police station. We also learned that a certain Mahope had been seen at the scene of the attack, so that prompted the arrest of these people. MR MEYER: Generally speaking the pastors or the people who were involved with the Lutheran Church, can you tell us something about their political viewpoints at the time? MR RAMUSHWANA: It is known to everyone, even in South Africa is then because we had the independent homeland Venda, but in all parts of South Africa the clergy was known to support the liberation movement and all other supportive activities. We then decided to detain and question these people. MR MEYER: All right, carry on what happened then? MR RAMUSHWANA: Now, as I said earlier during the investigation we found that the persons responsible for the attack are those names, are the names that I have given, the three names that I have given and then that the people who had assisted those three people were then rounded up. MR MEYER: You're talking about the people who are listed in paragraph 50? MR RAMUSHWANA Paragraph 50. MR MEYER If you say they were rounded up, were they arrested all of them at once or were there time periods between the arrest that took place? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, I can't remember the timing, but these people were arrested almost in a fortnight together or three weeks time. I can't remember, I can't recall very well. MR MEYER: The three people that you found out that were responsible for the attack, the names that you just spelled a while ago, did you ever, were you ever able to arrest them? MR RAMUSHWANA: No, no Mr Chair. MR MEYER: Now General, after the people who are listed in paragraph 15 were arrested, they were detained and they were interrogated. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Meyer, just before you proceed if I may interrupt, General if you take a look at 15.6 and 15.7 that's Messrs Mahumela and Ravele, were they also linked to the Lutheran Church because they are described as being respectively a prosecutor and a security guard? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay, then, they were actually friends of the other five. And then investigations revealed that they also - these number 15.6 was used as recce, you know to go and find out what, how the situation was like at the police station, whether it was safe for those men who was to attack the police station to come and attack. And then the 15.7, this person was we found out later on that he conveyed these people by a vehicle, a kombi which he rented from someone and then took them, took the three people who attacked the police station out of the country. I'll say not exactly taken them out of the country but moved them out of Venda as such. CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Meyer let's proceed. MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now after as I have said after these people had been arrested they were detained and they were questioned, they were interrogated and they were also assaulted, tortured etc. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, Mr Chair. MR MEYER: You as the head of the team, if I can call it a team, were you aware of the fact that detainees generally and these people more specifically that certain methods were used during interrogations which constituted gross human violations? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes I was aware Mr Chair I think it has been - it was tendency throughout South Africa, especially from the Security Branch and other law enforcement agencies who were actually specialising in security matters to make use of certain methods in order to make the suspect, the suspects confess or reveal what they had done. MR MEYER: Can you tell us what those methods entailed? MR RAMUSHWANA: Well I think everything differs from one policeman to another. There are various methods that we used, others used bags, or a hood, others used water and others used methods of a where you asked the suspects to undress and then remain with underwear only and then you humiliate him by using words which are unbecoming so that he eventually can break or crack. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Who had been trusted to know the methods that you personally used, you were the Deputy Commander isn't it? MR RAMUSHWANA: I did not use any of the methods I am talking about except use my hand after I had lost my temper. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, Mr Meyer what direction are we taking by the question that you have just posed to Mr Ramushwana? MR MEYER: I am just trying to get a background of what the violations were that were committed and the methods of questioning that were used because those are the exact things that the applicants are asking amnesty for. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Well won't you try and connect that to the incidents in question so that we don't become broad in the evidence that has been presented and confine ourselves to the specifics. MR MEYER: I will attempt to do so. General, you have heard the comment that was made now. With regard to these specific detainees can you tell us what methods was used during their interrogation? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay, it will be difficult for me to say exactly what methods were used against whom, but I think it will be better off if this question could be asked to those people who were doing the interrogation. CHAIRPERSON: I think, do you know if any methods were used on these particular detainees, the ones referred in paragraph 15 of your supplementary affidavit, of your own knowledge and if so if you could describe them to us. If you don't know, then you don't know. MR RAMUSHWANA: That is what I am saying I don't know what methods were actually used on different victims but I think members themselves are in a position to ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON: Were you not present yourself personally at interrogations of any of the detained persons. MR RAMUSHWANA: No, no. MR MEYER: General, you specifically, and we are not talking about knowledge that you have of other persons, did you at anytime use assaults or anything of that kind with regard to any one of these people mentioned in paragraph 15? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay, I remember there was a time where Mdangeneni Petros Poswana, 15.3, who had gone out with the investigating team and then he had told them that he was going to show them where he hid some of the arms and ammunition and then they went out, he came back he could not show them the place where he had hidden these arms which he alleges he hid them; and then he went out again and showing them different spots and then eventually ending up getting nothing. I was waiting for them at the office, at my office and when they came back it was late and I had waited there, and when they came back and told me that Mr Poswana he says he cannot show them the place where he had hidden them. Then I got so angry and I asked him why did you not tell us from the beginning that you don't have any arms that are hidden anywhere else? So I slapped him in the face with my right arm. CHAIRPERSON: With your right open hand. MR RAMUSHANA Open hand. MR MEYER: How many times did you hit him? MR RAMUSHWANA: Once, and I felt sorry thereafter because I didn't want to use any of these methods myself. MR MEYER: Do you know what the result was of that strike you gave him? MR RAMUSHWANA: No, I don't know. I don't know what happened to him, because they took him away. I never saw him again. MR MEYER: Did he fall down? MR RAMUSHWANA: No. He did not fall down. MR MEYER: And with regard to these people that are mentioned paragraph 15, is that the only physical assault that you yourself committed? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any of those detainees that are referred to in paragraph 15 at any stage to be injured, see any physical sign that they may have been assaulted? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes although it will be difficult for me to explain exactly what I saw but I could see these people that they were not feeling well, especially you know after a struggle or something like that. You could see that this person has received a little bit of a hiding, or if I could call it that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Are you saying that you were never present when the people that you have mentioned in paragraph 15, were assaulted or interrogated? MR RAMUSHWANA: No, when they were interrogated, no. These people were only brought to my office to make, to write a statement or to make a confession of which I would refer them to the Magistrate. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. In this case with regard to the Poswana incident, he wasn't brought in to make a confession was he? MR RAMUSHWANA: No, no, no, like I indicated Mr Chair that I lost my temper. This man had gone out. It was about half past, 4 o'clock when he left, if my recollection doesn't fail me, and then they went out to go, he wanted to go and show them where he had hidden some of the arms that were used. That's what I was told by my men, and then I said okay I will wait for you until you come back. So I waited, they came back, then they said no, he says it's no longer at that particular spot, it's at a different spot. I said okay then don't come back to me, go along and find out where the place is. So they went, then they came back late. I was alone in the office waiting for these people. Now when they came back, they said he's the person. He doesn't want to show us where he had hidden all these arms. Then I asked him why didn't you tell us long ago that there are no weapons? Then I lost my temper and hit him. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. I understand that. My question was simply to ascertain whether you were never present when the people that you've mentioned under paragraph 15 were interrogated by your subordinate. MR RAMUSHWANA: You mean each and everyone of them? JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, yes. MR RAMUSHWANA: There is time that I came in, maybe I could hear someone screaming, and then I would go and try and find out what was happening. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you were never part of the interrogation of the people that you have mentioned? MR RAMUSHWANA: No, no, no. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You have already said you only are admitting to assaulting one person? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And that's Mr Poswana? MR RAMUSHWANA: That's Poswana, yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. What did you mean in paragraph 34 when you talked of suspects that you assaulted? MR RAMUSHWANA: 34. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You only intended to mean Poswana and none of the other people. It seems at paragraph 34, you say "During the interrogation of the suspects a number of them were assaulted by myself." MR RAMUSHWANA: No. I think this was just a proforma, I don't know, I think everyone, everyone of us has got this... JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. MR RAMUSHWANA: But now, I indicated that Posiwa he was never assaulted by me. Mahamba never assaulted by me, Farisani. Poswana I told, I said I slapped him in the face. Ravele I never assaulted and Chikororo I never assault him. Mahumela I never assaulted him. CHAIRPERSON: And General, so with the people that were doing the interrogation of these detainees, were they aware of the fact that you would not have reprimanded them, or brought them to book, if they assaulted the people they were interrogating? You sort of condoned that.... MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes I would say so. CHAIRPERSON: You were aware that they were being assaulted. The interrogators were aware that you were aware.... MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, I just condoned ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON: And so you basically condoned, approved it by your silence type thing and regarded it as a method to be used in those circumstances? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes that's right. But then if they did it excessively I would actually reprimand them and tell them, "look you shouldn't do that, don't exceed the bounds." ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ramushwana I want to ask you, when you heard these people screaming, did you make enquiries as to the methods which they had used? MR RAMUSHWANA: I would go there and then ask, even in the presence of the victim as to who is screaming here, and the victim would not say it is me, and the interrogators too would not tell me who was screaming, and then I will then say, 'look, I heard the scream', but okay I went back to my office, although I knew exactly who was screaming. It was either one of the victims. ADV BOSMAN: But my question is really did you establish what methods were being used? MR RAMUSHWANA: I didn't want to establish the methods, because, remember if I condone all these methods, it was not necessary for me to find out what methods were used. ADV BOSMAN: I don't know whether I have misunderstood you here, but, you said that you know that if there were excesses, you would tell them not to exceed the bounds. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. ADV BOSMAN: So what I'm asking is, did you make enquiries as to whether it fell within the bounds set by you? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. If it did not fall within the bounds then I wouldn't have gone back without having called one of the senior men there and say, 'look, it seems you are now exceeding the bounds.' But in this case, Mr Chair, I did not see the methods used. CHAIRPERSON: Did you define to them the bounds, or was that just as an unsaid, what the bounds were? What did you yourself believe the bounds to be? MR RAMUSHWANA: No it was unsaid. You know it's for a reasonable person to identify or to define excessive methods. I think it's easy for him to understand which one is excessive, which is not excessive. CHAIRPERSON: Did you have an electric shock device available at the place where they were being interrogated? MR RAMUSHWANA: Ja. If I remember very well, yes we had a telephone - I don't know what, it's a sort of a telephone instrument, you know the one you use to dial. CHAIRPERSON: The one with the crank dial? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I don't understand you. I'm not on the same page with your evidence so far. Are you saying you authorised certain methods to be used in order to extract information on the people that were arrested by you? Did you authorise any method to your underlings to use on those detainees? MR RAMUSHWANA: Mr Chair, I didn't say I authorised my subordinates to use any methods. The methods were left at the discretion of the interrogators, but if they were excessive, obviously I would see in the face of the suspect that obviously excessive methods was used. Then I had to find out what method was used so that we are able to get this person to the hospital or somewhere. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You are aware that your underlings were using unconventional methods in extracting information from detainees? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You condoned those methods? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes I did. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, so you were aware of all those methods? MR RAMUSHWANA: I was aware, yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And you say if there were excesses you would intervene, and the excesses would be determined by looking at the face of a detainee? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: What do you mean by that? MR RAMUSHWANA: What I'm trying to say is, I was not all the time available or present during the interrogations, so it was going to be difficult for me to say whether the methods that they were using, if I'm physically there, are acceptable or excessive. But if I'm not there and I hear someone screaming, okay obviously that could be, it will mean this person is enduring a lot of pain or something like that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. MR RAMUSHWANA: Then I'll rush there and find out what is happening. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So a scream to you would indicate that the methods used were being excessive is that what you are saying? MR RAMUSHWANA: I mean that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You never defined to your underlings the bounds beyond which they were not to go in interrogation when applying certain methods? MR RAMUSHWANA: No, no, because of one thing the interrogation staff was not trained by me. They were trained by our South African counterparts. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, but they were operating under your command, is it not so? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, under my command, but not all the time under my command. Like I indicated, these people, the victims, were interrogated when I was not attached to the investigation itself. Only at a later stage did I come in. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I'm talking about when you were in charge of this investigation. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. When I was in charge of the investigation I know of some screams that I heard, and I went to find out what was all about it, why did the, would someone scream, then I will go and look at what is happening. Now I would also ask the victim, and ask him who was screaming, what is the problem? Then if he doesn't tell me what the problem is then obviously I wouldn't know what kind of methods was used. CHAIRPERSON: Did you at any stage see any of the detainees involved as referred to in paragraph 15 to be in such a state that they required, in your opinion, medical attention? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. I think I know of one, I know of one - 15.4, Dean Farisani. CHAIRPERSON: What did you see regarding him? MR RAMUSHWANA: I can't recall very clearly, I mean it's long ago, its about 18 years or so ago. But okay I could see the signs that he was actually assaulted. CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Meyer. MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman. General, to get right to the point, is it correct that you were aware of the fact that your subordinates were assaulting and torturing some of these detainees? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair. MR MEYER: Were you in the position to order them to stop with those methods of interrogation? MR RAMUSHWANA: I did not have all the rights to do it. I was the Deputy Chief of Security. I had a Chief above me and then I had a Commissioner above me, I had the President above me. And to indicate to you how difficult it was going to be for me to tell my subordinates to stop using the methods on the suspects, I think it could have cost me my job. Although I did not mention it because it was not relevant, but now that it is becoming relevant I had at the previous year apprehended, not in actually myself apprehended but the our branch apprehended one of the three members, the three men that I indicated just below the list of those victims, that is the last name, John Mwendamutse Mamabolo, he's my cousin, and then I released him because I could not prefer a charge against him. It was before he was involved in this incident. And why I reasoned because I could not charge him with any offence. He was busy moving around placing stickers on vehicles with the emblem, the Battle of Isandhlwana. And then when he was arrested then I could not prefer charges against him, I said he should be released, not because he was because my cousin but because there was no charge I could lay against him. So I was told if you do that again you will find yourself at the central Matachi Prison, or you will find yourself without job. So it was difficult for me to say no don't do that and do that, although outside here it appeared that we had control over the whole Security Branch. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Are you satisfied Mr Meyer with the answer given by Mr Ramushwana to your question? I don't know he seems to have deviated from what you actually wanted him to respond to. Your question, as I recall was whether he was in a position to have stopped his underlings from continuing with the methods they were using. MR MEYER: That is indeed my question. As I understand the General he is trying to convey to the Panel that although he was theoretically in charge of the investigation, he was under some sort of pressure to bring the perpetrators of the attack to book by his seniors, and under more pressure because of this previous incident of his cousin where he was threatened that he might lose his job because this person was released without being charged. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I mean who was giving him pressure? Shouldn't he tell us that. Where did this pressure come from? MR RAMUSHWANA: I think I indicated earlier Mr Chair, that I had my Chief above me, I had the Commissioner of Police above me and I had the State President above me. I indicated that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Who in particular put pressure to bear on you? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay from the President downwards, because as members of the Security we had access to the President and then we were given instructions from his office. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So are you saying that the President was aware of the methods that were being used? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And he actually encouraged the use of those methods? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, Mr Chair. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, continue Mr Meyer. MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman. If I can just go back to where we were before you spoke about the pressure that you had and so on. The fact is that you were in charge of the investigation and you knew that methods were being used in the interrogation that were not proper, that involved assaults and torture etc, and as you have already ...(tape 1a ends) MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR MEYER: Regarding the pressure that you spoke about and you don't have to go into detail, except if the Panel wants more detail, but you have already spoken about the President and your seniors. Let's talk about this specific incident with the attack on the police station. What was their reaction and their attitude with regard to the performance or bringing the people who were responsible for the attack to justice? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay we were actually told to report progress on an hourly base and we were also instructed that you should leave no stone unturned, and if you had problems with vehicles or anything just shout we provide. We even used the Commissioner's vehicle in order to alleviate shortage of vehicles that were attached to the Security Branch, and we were told never play with the suspects, you should deal with them severely. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You were told by who? MR RAMUSHWANA: We were told by the President. I said we were told that every hour we should report progress to the President. ADV BOSMAN: At this stage may I just ask you who told you that if, you know after the release of Mamabolo, who told you that if something like that would happen again you would find yourself out of a job or in a prison? MR RAMUSHWANA: I was told by the President. Okay the Louis Trichardt branch of the Security Branch of SAP then came to Sibasa looking for that person, Mamabolo, and when they heard that he was released then they went to the advisor, the chief advisor of the Security Branch who came from South Africa, and they reported this matter. The matter was then reported to the President. Then I was called by the President. CHAIRPERSON: So, sorry just to get this clear Mr Meyer are you now applying for amnesty because you slapped a man 18 years ago in a moment of anger with an open hand across the face, or are you applying for amnesty in that you accept responsibility for what those under your control did to these people? What is the position? MR RAMUSHWANA: Both, both. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: It doesn't appear from the application when you say both Mr Meyer, does it? The application before me only refers to an incident with regard to the assault on a number of suspects including Mr Poswana? That's the basis for which you are giving amnesty. MR MEYER: Yes on the application on the papers itself it would seem to be the case that it is only for the assault on Reverend Poswana. However I think it is also specifically mentioned that the General was in charge of the investigation team, in paragraph 13 where he said that he took charge of the investigation and it is my submission that that would entail that he was also responsible for the, to a large extent for the acts of his subordinates. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But shouldn't you have brought that to our attention before you commenced giving evidence- in-chief of Mr Ramushwana so that we should know exactly what incident we have to hear Mr Ramushwana for his amnesty application? MR MEYER: Yes, Mr Chairman I suppose it might have been helpful if I told you about it before hand. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Not helpful, procedural. MR MEYER: Yes indeed. I submit however that the application itself deals with not only with regard to General Ramushwana himself, it deals only with Reverend Poswana with regard to specific acts done by himself but he also talks about other persons being assaulted, for instance in paragraph 43, the purpose of the assault was to extract information which could lead to further arrests and to instil fear and fatigue so that the suspects, more than one, would give the information needed to make further arrests. For instance also paragraph 33 where he was talking about Ravele which was assaulted by some members of the mobile unit etc. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue Mr Meyer. MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman. General what eventually happened to the people that were originally detained? Do you know? MR RAMUSHWANA: There are some of the people who were charged before the court and found guilty, others cases were withdrawn. I cannot remember which ones but I know, I think Reverend Poswana was charged and he got a suspended sentence. He was convicted. MR MEYER: So okay, is it correct that you don't know exactly who, what happened to which one of the detainees. MR RAMUSHWANA: Ja, ja. MR MEYER: With regard to this specific incident. The policemen that were killed and injured during the attack did you know them personally? MR RAMUSHWANA: I did not know them personally but I used to see them at the police station. I think both of them were married and they had children, their mothers are, I could say their parents - that some of them are still alive and that's that. MR MEYER: General, we have already covered the fact you were aware that assaults and torture methods were used during the interrogation, you were aware of that, you condoned it, you assaulted Mr Poswana personally, why did you use these methods of interrogation? MR RAMUSHWANA: Obviously it was to try and find out and get information from the suspects so that we are able to come to the end of the investigation. CHAIRPERSON: And you would classify that the type of case that you were investigating as being a political case? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR MEYER: And how do you feel today General about the fact that you personally assaulted one of them and that you knew that the rest of them were being assaulted and tortured and you did not do anything about it? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, look, I indicated that when I slapped the Reverend Poswana I felt sorry the same day when they took him away, but looking at the overall picture I think I feel more guilty than the interrogators themselves, there is no use you know trying to blame, push or shift blame to someone else. I personally had a moral obligation to see to either the suspects or the victims should be properly handled by the interrogators. My failure I think has also contributed a lot to the conditions in which these people found themselves during the interrogation and I am deeply sorry that I allowed these thing to carry on like that, and I also physically assaulted one of these victims. You know looking at what happened to me after that I think people would be able to realise how deeply sorry I was. Mr Chair, I was the Deputy Commander of the Security Branch until I was transferred on the instruction of the President then, President Mpepu to go and be Chief of Staff of the Venda Defence Force in 1985, and then I went through a number of courses in the defence force. Eventually I ended up as the appointed Chief of Defence Force, the Deputy Chief of Defence Force and I has to proceed again on other courses until in 1990 with the release of Mandela, President Mandela, and that I also got involved in a military coup d'etat in Venda. I took over Venda and I tried everything at my disposal then to reconcile the people of Venda with those who were the enemies of Venda. I built the Venda people and united them and brought in the spirit of reconciliation. When we were due to represent Venda at Codesa and later on at multi-party conference I made sure that all people from all spheres of life, especially those in Venda, are nominated to sit with me at Codesa and multi-party talks. I took, amongst the victims here, Dean Farisani, he was one of my delegation. To me this is a sign of reconciliation. It is a sign that says forget about the past, let's build a new South Africa together. I am the first homeland leader to host the first internal conference of MK. We were fighting against MK in 1981 and '79 backwards. But I found it necessary to gather them to come to Venda and host a conference, the MK conference. I brought the various groupings within South Africa and Venda to come and discuss about quo vadis TBVC. To look at what is going to happen to the TBVC States, because the future of these states were in the hands of who comes into power in the new South Africa, so I held a conference to discuss the future of these TBVC. I was the first homeland leader to visit the MK headquarters in Lusaka. The first conference of the TBVC, MK, SANDF was attended by me. I was responsible for bringing about, for brokering the conference on enmity between the South African Defence Force, South African Police and APLA in Harare. Now I can name a number of things that indicates you know, the change of attitude, the change of approach, the deepest felt apology that one could bring across. MR MEYER: General if I can just interrupt you there, is there anything that you would like say to the victims of those assaults and tortured? MR RAMUSHWANA: Well, to the victims I would like to say to you, I am very, very sorry for what has happened. Forgive me. And I know especially the families of those people, the victims. They were hurt then especially then when they saw their loved ones they were coming out of the dungeon, coming from the ruthless torture of my men. I am very sorry about it. Forgive them too. And I also would like to make a calling upon all those other people who were involved in the attack on the police station that they should come and say sorry, to the parents and children of those two policemen who were burned to ashes at Sibasa police station. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I hope Mr Ramushwana you are aware that we are dealing with your amnesty application. We would appreciate it if you could confine your evidence to what is required for you to present in terms of satisfying the requirements of the Act that we have to decide upon whether we grant you amnesty or not. MR MEYER: General, if there is one other aspect in your application you also mention that you ask for amnesty with regard to perjury. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR MEYER: Is it correct that as a result of the assaults on some of the detainees some of them instituted civil proceedings against the police at that stage? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR MEYER: And is it also correct that for the purpose of those proceedings that were instituted you were required to make statements with regard to whether or not the people were assaulted? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR MEYER: And is it correct further that you made false statements with regard to that fact? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair. MR MEYER: Mr Chairman I am referring to page 106 of the bundle. If I can just show you the statement General, the more important part is the last paragraph where you say that "The interrogation of this detainee was conducted by myself and my two assistants only. At no time was he assaulted or any violent means used by any of us to obtain incriminating evidence or admissions from him". MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR MEYER: Is that a statement you made? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR MEYER: And you know that this statement was false? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair. MR MEYER: And this is with regard to the Reverend Posiwa. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair. MR MEYER: What was the reason that you made a false statement in this regard? MR RAMUSHWANA: Firstly the statement, if I had written a different statement from that one it will mean that I had supporting evidence from he medical report, but then there was no medical report to support that statement. MR MEYER: If I can just have a minute Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Would it be "defeating the ends of justice" that, Mr Meyer, sorry if I am just looking at page 27 where he is asking for assault, defeating ends of justice and perjury. Defeating the ends of justice is that also relating to these civil proceedings that you've just referred to? MR MEYER: Indeed so Mr Chairman. That is correct. I have no further questions at this stage. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Meyer. Mr van Rensburg, do you have any questions to ask this applicant? EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Indeed I have a few questions to the applicant. General as you know I am representing the 5th applicant in today's proceedings, that is Captain Carlson Netshivale and perhaps I can start off by asking you do you know this person? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair. MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you please tell us how you know him and where did you meet him? MR RAMUSHWANA: I knew him as a serving member of the then Venda Defence, Venda National Force. MR VAN RENSBURG: Police Force. MR RAMUSHWANA: It was then National Force, not police force. MR VAN RENSBURG: I see. MR RAMUSHWANA: And then he was attached to the Security Branch. CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just for my information, you had a Venda National Force, just one National Force. MR RAMUSHWANA: With branches. CHAIRPERSON: With branches, what were those - army ...(intervention) MR RAMUSHWANA: Army.... CHAIRPERSON: Police.... MR RAMUSHWANA: Police, prison and traffic. CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so you didn't actually have a stand alone police force? It was a branch of the National Force of which the Commissioner was the head of that branch. And then within the police you had a security branch or was that a stand alone? MR RAMUSHWANA: No. CHAIRPERSON: ....Security branch for the military as well? MR RAMUSHWANA It was under the police element, yes. CHAIRPERSON Part of the police. Yes thank you, sorry Mr van Rensburg. MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. And you, just to recap, you met the fifth applicant when he was a member of the Security Branch at Sibasa. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair. MR VAN RENSBURG: Was it round about the time of 1981 '82. MR RAMUSHWANA: I think it was before that. He was attached to branch maybe I cannot recollect properly but okay in the 80's. MR VAN RENSBURG: Now you've testified that immediately after attack on the police station there was an investigation team or as you call it an interrogation team formed which consisted largely of officers. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR VAN RENSBURG: Now my question is was the fifth applicant part of that investigation of interrogators team? MR RAMUSHWANA: As I said earlier on I only had officers and Warrant Officer, that was the lowest rank that I could ... CHAIRPERSON: At that stage what was the rank of the fifth applicant, Mr van Rensburg has referred to him as Captain, I don't know if that is present status. MR RAMUSHWANA: He was a constable. If he was not a constable he was a sergeant. I can't recall. MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. My instructions are at that stage he was in fact a sergeant. You agree with that? MR RAMUSHWANA: I may agree, I can't recall everything now. MR VAN RENSBURG: I see. So if we then accept that he was a sergeant and you say that core mainly consist or are exclusively consist of policemen with the rank of warrant officer, so he was in fact excluded from that interrogation team or investigation team. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: Mr Chair, not necessarily I think that depends upon the performance of a particular member. If he is good at investigations even if he is a constable he would be what I could refer to - delegated to serve under the supervision of the investigation team. CHAIRPERSON: Well the question put to you by Mr van Rensburg is do you know whether he part of that team whether he was delegated or used, do you know whether he participated? Let's put it this was, make it a bit broader. Do you know personally whether the fifth applicant who was then a sergeant, was used in the investigation and/or interrogation involving the detainees referred to in paragraph 15 of your supplementary application? MR RAMUSHWANA: This thing took place long ago I can't recall it really. This guy was a constable, he was a sergeant. Now today he is a Captain, if you go back and you try and think whether he was ... CHAIRPERSON: No, no the question is merely do you can you tell us now? MR RAMUSHWANA: I can't recall. CHAIRPERSON: You can't recall, okay. MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. Have you ever personally witnessed the fifth applicant assaulting any of the detainees? MR RAMUSHWANA: Who is the fifth applicant? CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant, then Sergeant Netshivale. MR RAMUSHWANA: Not in my presence. MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you for the assistance Mr Chairman. You testified at some occasions when you heard screams during the time of the interrogation you would actually intervene and kind of caution your officers to take it easy. Is that a correct summation? MR RAMUSHWANA: No I didn't say that. MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, perhaps I should rephrase that. You at a stage during the interrogation when you heard certain screams would intervene to make sure that the bounds of the interrogation are not exceeded. That is your evidence. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: I didn't say that. I said if I heard screams I would go and to try and find out what was going on. MR VAN RENSBURG: Are you denying that you said something to the effect that you had to make sure and the reason why you intervened was to make sure that the bounds of the interrogation were not exceeded. Are you denying that? MR RAMUSHWANA: Mr Chair, I don't know. I don't know. I didn't say that. CHAIRPERSON: I don't get the feeling that Mr van Rensburg is trying to trick you into anything. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, but what I am trying to say, okay, but what he is saying is not what I said. If you could read what I said from the transcript I would really appreciate it. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I think basically what you have said was that if they did it excessively, you would intervene. I am trying to be closer to what you've said. I can't be verbatim. That was your evidence. CHAIRPERSON: I think maybe you didn't use the word "intervene". You would go and see for yourself to find out what was happening there. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes that's what I said. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you did use the word "intervene". CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg .. MR VAN RENSBURG: And you also, and I have to be specific - you have to be as specific about this, you also used the phrase, "exceed the bounds". MR RAMUSHWANA Yes. MR VAN RENSBURG: That is my question. What bounds? MR RAMUSHWANA: The bounds of assaulting. MR VAN RENSBURG: And those bounds were set by yourself, is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: I didn't say that. MR VAN RENSBURG: I'm asking you. MR RAMUSHWANA: No I didn't set the bounds. MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay. Let's take it a bit further. You said during the time you experienced extreme pressure from your superiors, the Commissioner and also the President to produce results in this investigation. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR VAN RENSBURG: Would I be correct to make the deduction that you also then in turn exerted that same pressure downwards to your, towards the other officers responsible? MR RAMUSHWANA: You are quite correct Mr Chair. MR VAN RENSBURG: And also that you received instructions, I think you said directly from the President, that you should deal severely with suspects and never play with them. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR VAN RENSBURG: You also made sure that your officers underneath you understood that principle very well. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: And by saying "yes" you would mean the officers that you would have communicated that too would be Ramaligela, Managa, Nesamari and Sifuwa? MR RAMUSHWANA: And Sifuwa. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, and no other person other than those. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. Thank you. MR VAN RENSBURG: Would I then be further correct to say that these warrant officers, let's call it that, responsible for the investigation expected the lower ranking officers to behave in a certain way, in an aggressive way towards the suspects? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. Maybe yes and no, I don't know. I think that depends upon the individual officer who deals with those subordinates of his. But I will tend to agree that obviously you have to take instructions or you know examples from his officers. MR VAN RENSBURG: Fine. Can you perhaps tell us what requirements a policeman had to meet during that stage to actually become a member of the Security Branch? MR RAMUSHWANA: Requirements, are you now referring to qualifications or what? CHAIRPERSON: Special qualities, qualifications whatever ... MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay. Obviously academically he should at least have a Standard 10 and he should be physically fit. He should undergo fitness tests and he should be good in languages, be able to communicate in Afrikaans, English and in other black languages, and he should be a person who is dedicated to his work. He should be a person who has high discipline and his wife too should be a person who is prepared to sacrifice time that this man can spend outside his house or his home. MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you General. What about security clearance? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay. Security clearance firstly is number one priority. But that is also done with the Security Branch itself and not by uniform branch, and no policeman can join the police force without having got this clearance. MR VAN RENSBURG: Was there any investigation done into a person's, or let's call it an applicant, for the Security Branch political views and attitudes? MR RAMUSHWANA: No. I think most of the members of the Security Branch were identified by those people responsible for the training. Maybe I could say two-thirds of the Security Branch of the then Venda National Force was selected by the South African Police, Security Branch. The training was also conducted by them. MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes that is not exactly answering my question. I want to know if there was any kind of political screening before a person could join the Security Branch? MR RAMUSHWANA: Not that I know of. But I know of security screening that is done, not political screening, because we believe in that the police serve the government of the day. The government of the day is served by the police. Whether the police force is 100 years old or what, the new government comes to power within two days is then served by that police force. So there was no political screening. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you wouldn't know Mr Ramushwana you were not involved in the screening of - you merely are speculating. MR RAMUSHWANA: But I would know Mr Chair, because I was the Deputy Chief of Security and then political screening would obviously have to be charged to me because I was doing the investigating. The Chief of Security did not do the investigating, the Commissioner did not do it. But at the same time we didn't have a watchdog looking at how the, what the police thought about the government. That's why I said there was no political screening. CHAIRPERSON: But wouldn't - I don't actually know what political screening is. If you are screening somebody for security, security screening, wouldn't you look at the person's political affiliations, which way he thinks, which way he votes? MR RAMUSHWANA: But it's not that easy to get that information. CHAIRPERSON: Yes but I mean wouldn't it be included in that? MR RAMUSHWANA I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Or do you, or was there such a thing as a political screening as opposed to a security screening? MR RAMUSHWANA: I have never dealt with those you know, type of things. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But haven't you just said you were responsible for that? MR RAMUSHWANA: I was responsible for the screening of the Security Branch, not political, not screening politically. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. Now the security clearance that you were involved in, did it not entail having to look at somebody's political involvement or affiliation or such other related matters? MR RAMUSHWANA: No, no, no, I would have said that I really I don't know even that form, I think it's, I don't know if it is available now, I would actually produces it and you look at it, it doesn't have those requirements. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, let's proceed Mr van Rensburg. MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman. So you were actually only looking for a person before you let him or appoint him to the Security Branch for a very dedicated policeman who is doing his job better than most others. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Rensburg. Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Yes I do Mr Chairperson, thank you. Mr Ramushwana, I would like to know if did you know any of the victims mentioned paragraph 15? MR RAMUSHWANA: Personally? MS MTANGA: Personally. MR RAMUSHWANA: No. MS MTANGA: Did you know of ... MR RAMUSHWANA: ...excuse me, I think the person I knew personally was, because I used to meet him at the Venda Sun, is Bengeni John Ravele, and I understand he has passed away. MS MTANGA: Did you know of the church involvement before the bombing? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay I knew the Reverend Alfred Mahamba. I knew Dean Farisani. I knew Raman Chikororo; I knew Chifewa Mahumela, and I knew but Phinias ...(indistinct) Posiwa I didn't know. MS MTANGA: So you are saying you knew Mr, Reverend Mahamba personally? MR RAMUSHWANA: Not personally, just to know him ...(intervention) MS MTANGA: That he was involved in the church - that's Mr Mahamba. Mr Poswana? MR RAMUSHWANA: I didn't know him. MS MTANGA: You knew Mr Farisani. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela and Mr Ravele you also knew. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MS MTANGA: When did you first become aware of their political activities? MR RAMUSHWANA: I knew Dean Farisani from years back, in the 70's when I was still in the Security Branch at Messina. MS MTANGA: What exactly did you know about him then? MR RAMUSHWANA: I just know that he was active in these organisations, political organisations. MS MTANGA: At the time they were arrested for their attack on the police station, what information did you have that linked them to that attack? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay, he was not arrested by me, but at the time the information was that he was, he had actual ...(intervention) MS MTANGA: Excuse Mr Ramushwana, I am referring to all of them. MR RAMUSHWANA: All of them? MS MTANGA: Yes. What information did you have on each one of them? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay, at that Reverend Mahamba was visited by two armed men, that Posiwa was responsible for, he was in the van that took those three men to go and attack the police station and then Petros Poswana was also one of them. About Farisani I didn't know anything. About Chikororo he was involved in conveying these people from the place attack to their final destination, or hide-out. And then Chifewa Mahumela I don't know, except that he was used, he was apparently used as a recce to go and look at the place before the attacking team came. And then Bengeni John Ravele I only know that he conveyed these people from Venda, out of Venda. And then that he was also found in possession of an AK47 or any other type of firearm. MS MTANGA: When you say regarding Dr Farisani you knew of no link to this matter, does it mean you can't recall the link to this, to the bombing or at the time you arrested him you had no information linking him to this bombing at the police station? MR RAMUSHWANA: No, all I know I heard about, it was a report I got from my subordinates that the investigation that they conducted was that Dean Farisani, two people came looking for him, looking for Dean Farisani, and that these people went to Mahamba's house and then Posiwa took them to Dean Farisani, or they were looking for Dean Farisani, something like that. So I can't recall very clearly, but as I said these had something to do with the people who were looking, who came looking for the Dean and people, and other people who were conveyed by the others in the list. MS MTANGA: To correct you Mr Ramushwana, the visitors were said to have been looking for Mr Mahamba and were taken by Mr Posiwa to Mr Mahamba's house. But were not looking for Dean Farisani. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, it could be like that. I am not saying it was exactly like that, like I said it's long, this thing happened 18 years ago. I can't recall everything in detail as it ... MS MTANGA: Was there basis for arresting Mr Farisani? MR RAMUSHWANA: The basis for arresting Mr Farisani I don't know, because I didn't authorise his arrest. MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana I would like you to help me understand here, when a person is arrested and he gives an alibi, do you check out that alibi, do you carry on investigation on their alibi given by the person? MR RAMUSHWANA: Obviously yes. MS MTANGA: Can you recall what was Dr Farisani's alibi at the time of his arrest? MR RAMUSHWANA: I think what I can recall he said something that, something like when the police station was attacked he was not there. And it was true, he was not there. MS MTANGA: Where was he Mr Ramushwana? Where was he? MR RAMUSHWANA: He wasn't .. CHAIRPERSON: Is it necessary that we know where he was? What has this got to do with the torture of him afterwards. If we can just get to it. We don't need to know all details of a person's alibi etc etc. This in not relevant to this hearing. MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Chairperson. The instruction I have from Dr Farisani are that on the day of the bombing he had left the area and had gone to Johannesburg for a church council meeting, and the Security Branch police were aware of this. Do you refute this Mr Ramushwana? MR RAMUSHWANA: I think I also told Dean Farisani that I know, I told him if he can quote those words that I know "you were not present when the police station was attacked." I told him that. MS MTANGA: When did you tell him this? MR RAMUSHWANA: Long ago. Eighteen years ago. MS MTANGA: After the arrest, then after the tortures? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. During the arrest I think. MS MTANGA: You told him when, during the arrest? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, when he was still detained I think. MS MTANGA: But why was he tortured when you were aware that wasn't around? MR RAMUSHWANA: I didn't torture him. MS MTANGA: But you ...(intervention) MR RAMUSHWANA: I didn't instruct my men to torture him. MS MTANGA: So who instructed them to torture Dr Farisani? MR RAMUSHWANA: Look, I think made it very clear from the beginning that what happened in my absence and my men were interrogating, I was not part and parcel. Except that I carry responsibility now because they were working under me. I didn't instruct them to torture Farisani. I didn't tell them to torture Farisani. But the point is I went to see Farisani and then I said to him, Dean, I said this in Venda to him "Dean, I know that you never, you were not here when the police station was attacked". MS MTANGA: Were you aware that he was being tortured by your subordinates? MR RAMUSHWANA: I only went to see him when I heard some screams. MS MTANGA: What did you do about it Mr Ramushwana? MR RAMUSHWANA: I said on that particular issue particularly that. I told to my men, I said "Look, don't ill treat the Dean" I told them that in his presence. MS MTANGA: Mr Chairperson, I leave this to the evidence of Dr Farisani. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I just take up one or two things emanating from your responses to questions put by Ms Mtanga? You've evidenced that you didn't authorised Mr Farisani's arrest. Do you know who might have authorised his arrest? MR RAMUSHWANA: No I think Ramaligela could have authorised it, he was doing the investigation. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Now you were the Deputy Commander and you are responsible for this investigation. MR RAMUSHWANA: At that time I was not. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You were not? MR RAMUSHWANA: No I came in later. The man who in charge of the investigation at that time ... JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Was Sifuwa MR RAMUSHWANA: Sifuwa yes. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Now that would clear my little confusion, because I was getting a little worried why a person responsible for the investigation would not be aware of the arrest of a suspect when he is in charge of that investigation. MR RAMUSHWANA: And these people were not arrested at the same time.. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes I am aware. I have read the statements of the victims when they appeared before the Human Rights Violations Committee. ADV BOSMAN: Can I just clarify one small point. When the Chairperson asked you about any people who may have needed medical attention I recall that you mentioned the name of Dr Farisani. Did you obtain any medical attention for him? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, I think he was sent to hospital. ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished? MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana, I'll just make a follow up to the question asked by Advocate Bosman. In your application you have said that the assaults on the victims were not so serious as such they didn't need, they didn't require medical attention. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, I might have said that. This statement I think everyone of us has made the same statement, but I think here we are looking at individual submission and I think here there was some mistake, I don't know if I am right. MS MTANGA: If I may ask you, you have seen Dr Farisani and you have seen the extent of his injuries how did he appear, what made you seek medical attention for him? MR RAMUSHWANA: He complained to me that he was not feeling well, and I could see that he was bruised. MS MTANGA: Can you recall how bruised, how bad were the bruises on his body or where exactly were the bruises? MR RAMUSHWANA: I know his face was swollen. MS MTANGA: Alright, I'll leave that question. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Mr Ramushwana you are saying the reason why you have alleged that none of the people that were assaulted by you or you underlings ever received serious wounds or had to get medical treatment was because you all had to complete one, one application, but surely these are applications completed by your lawyers at your instruction. Is it not so? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, but the point is we were trying to recollect information eighteen years ago and we were trying to put these facts together one ...(indistinct). JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, eighteen years ago you remembered that Mr Farisani had been arrested and is one the few who needed medical attention. Didn't you know that? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. The problem is we are looking at who assaulted who. Now when it came to that I assaulted Farisani, I couldn't actually indicate that I assaulted Farisani and that I referred him to the hospital. I couldn't say that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, but why couldn't you have said that? You intimated to command of the investigating team, and whatever the investigating team did, did under your command. Why would it have been so difficult for you to have disclosed that some of the people that were subjected under some kind of assault by you, ultimately needed to have medical attention? MR RAMUSHWANA: But I think I am saying it now, but what I did not say here is because the question was 'Whom did you assault? Did you assault...' Now I must write down the name person I have assaulted and I must indicate who. The person I assaulted and what happened to him, did I take him to hospital or did he receive medical attention. There is no person whom I assaulted that required medical attention. That is why I could not include it in my statement. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you are aware of the people who are assaulted by you underlings that required medical attention. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes, of which I authorised them to be hospitalised. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You were aware when you gave instructions to your attorney at that stage, you were aware of that. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes I was aware of that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yet you did not disclose. MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay, maybe I am getting confused now. I was told that I must make a statement indicating why I need to apply for amnesty, and also indicating in your amnesty whom did you assault, whom did you kill, whom did you maim and so forth and then sign. So I did exactly the same. I did not touch Farisani, I did not assault him, but I made sure seeing that I was the second in charge, I made sure that he should be referred to hospital. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: When Mr Farisani was taken to hospital, were you in charge of the operation then, had you replaced Mr Sifuwa? MR RAMUSHWANA: At that time, I can't remember. Because I was based at Head Office. I used to go and attend to my subordinates activities, find out what was happening and then go back. But when Sifuwa was removed from there I took charge. Then I had an office next to the Ramaligela's offices and that is where I could hear the screams and then I would then go and find out what was happening there. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You haven't responded to my simple question. At the time when Mr Farisani was taken to hospital for medical attention, had you replaced Mr Sifuwa? MR RAMUSHWANA: No I don't think so. I can't remember. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Thank you. You may proceed Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Ramushwana I would like to know when people were under interrogation. When it appeared that they needed, they required medical attention. Who would authorise that medical, that they go and see doctors? MR RAMUSHWANA: Normally the investigation officer, the interrogation officer will make arrangements. MS MTANGA: So you would ... MR RAMUSHWANA: ... or the branch commander then. MS MTANGA: You would never get involved in those decisions? MR RAMUSHWANA: No, I was based at Head Quarters. MS MTANGA: Alright, thank you. Earlier on we were discussing the information, the basis for the arrest of the victims and you had indicated that according to your source some of the, after Mr Reverend Mahamba was visited by these comrades and the rest of the people had conveyed those people to the scene of the attack. What was the source of information that you relied on? MR RAMUSHWANA: The information was regarding the, the attack on the police station if I am not wrong. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You are correct. Can you then give an indication to what she probably wants to ask you? What was the basis or who was the source of that information or on what grounds did you believe that information? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay, the information I am not in a position to divulge that except the then investigation officer, but he is not here, but Director Ramaligela is in the position to explain as to how, where, from whom did they get this information and so forth. I was not physically involved. This is a, what I see here is a report that was given to me from Ramaligela. MS MTANGA: If I may just briefly question you on the contents of the brief, of the report that you received did the report indicate that the church people were involved and that they received this ...(indistinct) and then they also participated by providing transport and conveying these people. Is that the basis of the report you received? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay, there was information that was received which was later on confirmed that Reverend Poswana, Reverend Sifuwa were responsible for conveying these people and keeping observation at the police station before it was attacked and that one Ramani Chikororo made his kombi available to take these people away from the police station after the attack. MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana I accept that is the basis of your report. If that is the situation, didn't you get the names of the three people that had visited Mr Mahamba and who could have been also involved in this attack? Didn't you have information on the actual people involved in the attack? MR RAMUSHWANA: No, I can not remember seeing the names of those people. I don't know whether they are the same three people who attacked the police station I don't know. But that could be, you could find out from the people who were doing the investigation. MS MTANGA: What information did you want to get from the victims? MR RAMUSHWANA: We wanted to confirm what we heard about the two reverends being available and making themselves available to convey these people or to keep guard at the police station where these three armed men attacked the police station and then this was confirmed by Reverend Posiwa. He confirmed that yes it's true he was there with Poswana and the like. Ramani Chikororo also actually confirmed that indeed his kombi was used to convey these three to Makonde. That's how we got to the end of the... MS MTANGA: Is it not true that all the victims who gave confession had given a different version and they were beaten up and tortured badly until they had to change their version and suit what the police wanted all of them? MR RAMUSHWANA: I don't know, I don't know, but then at that time what we believed in was that their story tallied. The other one was detained elsewhere and the other one somewhere else. They couldn't actually say the same account of what happened on the day of the attack, because it was exactly, the registration number of the vehicle, the ...(indistinct) providing, the Kombi was used and everything. There was no disputing their evidence although they gave everything apart. MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana if these are victims that have given confessions, why were they not charged based on their confessions which indicated that they were indeed involved in this bombing? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay, I think to be honest enough, why they were not charged is because these people were thoroughly assaulted. We withdrew the case against them on the basis of assault. MS MTANGA: Is it your evidence that when you are interrogating people and if you had assaulted them you wouldn't take them, you wouldn't prosecute them because they have been assaulted. MR RAMUSHWANA: No, it was just that, it was decided by the hierarchy that we do see that these people were badly assaulted. If we are going to charge them what's going to happen, they were going to, we'll lose the case and then again would then have civil claim. So it was decided that we should not charge them. MS MTANGA: How did you obtain information about their actual attackers, that is Kone and Mamabolo and the other gentlemen. How did you obtain that information? CHAIRPERSON: Is it necessary for us to know that, how they got that? We are not going to make any finding regarding the firing or setting on fire of the police station. MS MTANGA: Mr Chairperson, the evidence of the victim is that when the Police while tortured them they knew they were not involved and they may have had their suspects. CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you can just put it to him, but we don't have find out every single detail about the attack on the policemen, we'll never finish this matter. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: I think basically what you are contending is that there was no reasonable basis for effecting an arrest. Won't you just put it to him as your instructions indicate. MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Ramushwana, it is, may I put it to you that it is the position of the victims that at the time you arrested them you had no reasonable grounds or belief or suspicion that they were linked to the bombing of the police station because they were indeed not involved. Not in any way. MR RAMUSHWANA: Not all of them Mr Chairman. We have people who have admitted, some of them under duress indeed but others without any duress and that was the basis for arrest because even after we have arrested some of them the other two confessed and said "Indeed". MS MTANGA: My following question is, were you ever present or did you ever observe or see besides Dr Farisani's, were you ever present when the other victims were being interrogated beside Dr Farisani, did you see any of those victims being interrogated. MR RAMUSHWANA: I can't recall very well, but seeing that I use to go from time to time you know go in and peep and see whether everything is okay or maybe call someone there to have a chat with him, it is difficult to say when and how, under what circumstances. You see why I can remember Dean Farisani is because I knew him before, he was a top clergy in Venda and I did not know the others, but I wanted make sure that he was at home. So from time to time I went to see whether he was okay. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Ms Mtanga, what are your instruction. Are your instructions that he was present at any given time when the suspects were interrogated? MS MTANGA: My instructions are Mr Chairperson, that Mr Ramushwana's office was right next door from the interrogation room and what I want to observe from him is, if he kept going into the room, and he had said, he had given evidence to the effect that he would respond or he would intervene when he heard the screams. He was only one room away from the interrogation room. So what I would want to put to him is how many times did he hear those screams and how many times did he intervene. MR RAMUSHWANA: Oh, several times. MS MTANGA: Did you intervene in any of the interrogation of the victims that we are dealing with here? MR RAMUSHWANA: Like I said, in most cases when I went there and I wanted to find out who was screaming what is going on here, nobody would answer, even the victim would not tell. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Really Mr Ramushwana, did you expect the victims who were at the hands and mercy of your underlings to be in a position to give any reasonable answer to that question? MR RAMUSHWANA: But I am trying to say exactly what happened. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But did you expect them to be able to say anything in front of the people who you knew had been condoned to use unconventional methods of extracting information? MR RAMUSHWANA: But Mr Chair, I think I am trying to answer the question as it comes to me. I am not trying to add feelings. I am trying to answer as ...(indistinct). Whether I intervened and I am saying 'Yes' I would go there and say "What is going on here?" and then nobody would answer. And I think I have answered the question. But now if it comes down to the feelings or my expectations whether I expected the victim to say yes or no, I don't know whether I will be answering the question. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: May I just ask a direct question? When you ask that kind of a question, what kind of response were you reasonably expecting from the victims? MR RAMUSHWANA: Not necessarily the victim alone. Even the interrogators because one interrogator would say "Oh no, this guy he fell down" - something like that, or he is having hallucinations or something like that. But then, I would understand obviously why a victim would not answer. But I don't think whether that is what she wanted me to answer. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: You simply asked the question for the sake of asking the question. You never expected anything tangible to come out of that question. MR RAMUSHWANA: You could be right. MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana, you walked into a room filled by your police officers, your subordinates were carrying out a interrogation on these people and there was only one person being interrogated there. Who would have screamed in that situation? Who would have screamed in that situation under those circumstances, why would you ask a question who was screaming, who would have screamed in that situation? MR RAMUSHWANA: Well, the Commander would have said 'Okay, so and so is screaming' and then I'll say 'Why is he screaming'. MS MTANGA: In your evidence you gave methods that were used by the police officers in interrogating suspects and you mentioned that they used their hands, used water. Can you indicate and explain to this committee how were their hands used and how was the water used? MR RAMUSHWANA: Okay, I think this I will have to leave it to the interrogation team, I was not part of the interrogation team. CHAIRPERSON: I think if you know if any methods were used on these particular detainees, if you could explain those, we don't want to hear your knowledge of the various torture methods that aren't relevant to this particular incident. If you know water was used on one of those persons mentioned in paragraph 15, then you can explain it to us, but I don't think there is any point in us getting a detailed explanation of all the possible forms of torture that there may be in existence. MR RAMUSHWANA: Mr Chair, thank you, I think, like I said a number of methods were used. Okay, water was poured over a hood, the electric shock from the telephone and then bare hands, or maybe a fist, because if you look at the faces of some people who were swollen, I did not think they could use anything other than the fist or something like that, I don't know, but the interrogation team are in a better position to give you details on that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: But you, you were the commander, you must remember Mr Ramushwana, you are giving evidences as the commando of the investigating team and to the extent that you are the commander and to the extent that you condoned some of these methods, we would like to know which methods you condoned. MR RAMUSHWANA: If I saw them doing it, the problem is I was not there when they did this. If I was there I would tell you exactly okay, I condoned this and this. But now I know there are so many methods like where, like I was saying our men were trained by the South African Security Branch and so forth, some of the methods I don't know. But, that is given to the interrogation team. I personally cannot tell you, but I know some of them like I said okay, a hood and water, electric shock, maybe booted feet, open hands, fists - but then I wouldn't know what methods they used if I came there because someone screamed. CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever on the one of the many occasions that you went from your office into the interrogation room, when you heard a scream, did you ever see any electric device attached to the person being interrogated or present in the room that might have led you to believe that this person was now being given the electric shock treatment. MR RAMUSHWANA: No no no, what normally happens is, if someone screamed and then I would leave my office, they will hear my footsteps and then obviously they will unplug everything and then I ... CHAIRPERSON: No, but that is not what I am saying, did you see an electric, because these electric shock devices you've got to attach to parts of the body and it's got to be there. It is a physical thing that can be seen. What I am saying is: Did you ever see one there? MR RAMUSHWANA: No, I think I saw one, not on this case. Not on this case. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Didn't you at any given time make enquiries from your underlings as to the kinds of methods they are using, to obtain or extract information from the suspects as a commanding officer? MR RAMUSHWANA: The methods that they would tell me of would be really what I said now like the hood, but they wouldn't tell me about the shock thing and the like and then they will also tell me about you know, getting someone to stand on his head, you know, those things and maybe try and suffocate someone with a bag or a hood. You know, those things. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes. Now why would they not tell you about the electric shocks. MR RAMUSHWANA: I think they know I would not allow that. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: So it wasn't part of something that you would have condoned. MR RAMUSHWANA: If I had seen it I would obviously ... JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes ... MR RAMUSHWANA: ...I would not have condoned it, JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Yes, thank you. MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana, were you ever compelled to intervene in the interrogation of those victims because you felt it was excessive? MR RAMUSHWANA: I don't know I can't remember now, but I think somewhere I would say enough is enough, leave this man alone, something like that, something like that. MS MTANGA: The victims Mr Ramushwana will put it to you that the confessions made by Mr Posiwa and Mr Poswana were unlawfully obtained from them, because they were tortured and were not the truth, but were the version put to them by the police. Would you dispute this in anyway? MR RAMUSHWANA: I wouldn't dispute that. MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Chairperson. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: That is why you are applying for amnesty. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Meyer, any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER. Just a few questions Mr Chairman. General, you were asked by my colleague Mr van Rensburg about bounds that you spoke about. Am I correct in assuming that there were no sharply defined bounds, for instance that you would tell you subordinates you may only kick the detainees three times a day or something to that effect. MR RAMUSHWANA: True. MR MEYER: So when you talk about bounds it is not about a sharply defined boundary that you placed on the interrogators. MR RAMUSHWANA: It is true. MR MEYER: From the people that are listed in paragraph 15, do I understand you correctly that only one of them that you knew personally was number seven there Mr Ravele. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR MEYER: The others you just knew about. Is that correct? MR RAMUSHWANA: I also knew like I said Dean Farisani. MR MEYER: What was his position in the Lutheran Church? MR RAMUSHWANA: He was a dean there. MR MEYER: Does that mean he was the head of the Lutheran Church in Venda. MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes. MR MEYER: The people you were trying to bring or get before court eventually, were you only looking for the people who were physically involved in the physical attack of the police station as such, in other words, people who fired shots and fired rockets and those sort of things or were you also looking for people who was involved to the extent that they aided and abetted maybe the actual perpetrators? MR RAMUSHWANA: We were looking for all, perpetrators, those who assisted them, those who conveyed them, those who harboured them, all that. MR MEYER: Just regard to your, to the written statements which you made, is it correct that they were signed on the 7th of January 1998? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair. MR MEYER: Is it correct also that since that date which is more than a year ago you've had a number of further consultations with your legal representatives and also discussed this matter with your colleagues and made sure that details came to light? MR RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair. MR MEYER: Of the people who were arrested you've already testified that you only came aboard, if I can call it that, later than the actual investigation started. Can you remember how many of the people that were arrested, were already arrested before you became the head of the investigation? MR RAMUSHWANA: That I can't remember really. MR MEYER: You cannot tell us which exactly of the detainees had been arrested before you started heading the investigation? MR RAMUSHWANA: Difficult to say really. MR MEYER: Okay. JUDGE KHAMPEPE: Is there any evidence that he was part of the investigation prior to him assuming command? MR MEYER: No, there's no, there's no such evidence. I have nothing further, thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any questions Judge Khampepe? Advocate Bosman? Thank you General, that concludes your testimony. You may stand down. Mr Meyer? WITNESS EXCUSED