amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-18 PIETERMARITZBURG 2 DENNIS FELAMANDLA GUMEDE AM2784/96 MURDER OF MR BHEKUMUZI H. ZONDI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53399&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99051721_pmb_990518pm.htm CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to begin? MS MTANGA Yes we are, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Samuel, you are appearing for the Applicant? MR SAMUEL I am, Your Worship. CHAIRPERSON You are calling him to give evidence? MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Are you calling him to give evidence? MR SAMUEL I will be calling him to give evidence. CHAIRPERSON Are you Mr Gumede? MR GUMEDE Yes. DENNIS FELAMANDLA GUMEDE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yesterday this Committee decided we were going to commence at 9.30 this morning. Why are you late? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Where were you all this time this morning? MR GUMEDE I was in prison. CHAIRPERSON And nobody came to fetch you. MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Alright, thank you very much. CHAIRPERSON Yes please proceed Mr Samuel. MR SAMUEL As Your Worship pleases. EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL Mr Gumede, do you confirm that you are the Applicant in this matter? MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL There are two applications here, one for the death of Bhekumuzi Zondi and the other Ntsanya Colin Tsoanyana. Is that correct? MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL Do you confirm that on the 18th July 1991 you caused the death of Bhekumuzi Zondi at Greytown? MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL Could you tell this Commission the reason for your killing Bhekumuzi Zondi? MR GUMEDE Mostly, we were in the times whereby we were very emotional and angry, especially myself, Nhlanhla and Bheki, who were those that I was with on that day. I was out of prison on a Tuesday and then on Thursday people who were under Bheki Chamane. CHAIRPERSON I want you to go slowly so that we can take down the names that you have mentioned, do you understand? Who were you with on that day? You are probably aware of all the names but I am not MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL Mr Zondi could you tell this Commission who you were with on that day? MR GUMEDE The first one is Bheki and the surname is Chamane. The second one Mzwandile Mchunu. The third one is Nhlanhla Dladla. On our arrival in town, we were actually looking for these boys. We were on our way to buy underwear because we were going to a congress at Ncuthu. It was on a Thursday morning. CHAIRPERSON I thought he said they were in town, they were looking for these boys. What boys is he talking about? MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON It might help if you put leading questions at this stage, you see, instead of allowing him to ramble on. MR SAMUEL As the Commission pleases. Mr Gumede, you went to Greytown, am I right? MR GUMEDE Yes I did. MR SAMUEL And you were in the company of three other people namely Bheki Chamane, CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL When you got to Greytown, what was your purpose for going to Greytown? Was it look for some person or was it to buy something? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Just stop there. Is Bhekumuzi the deceased? MR GUMEDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So when you were passing Shop 1 you saw Bhekumuzi and then what happened? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON You uttered the words. What words did you utter? MR GUMEDE As I was crossing the road when we were proceeding there, Nhlanhla and them were already in front when I was about to reach Bheki, then I said "here is the meat". CHAIRPERSON What did you mean when you mentioned these words "here is the meat"? MR GUMEDE I was actually saying that here is the meat that we were supposed to shoot. CHAIRPERSON Just hold on. Who told you that he should be shot? MR GUMEDE Let me say, this Bhekimuzi, in most cases whereby the houses were burned and where the windows were broken in my area, his name would be mentioned and I would actually see him and most of us knew that he is a person who is actually in the forefront in the struggle, so... CHAIRPERSON What struggle are you talking about? MR GUMEDE He was in the UDF and we were the IFP. He was always in the forefront heading the people who were actually going to break the windows, his name would always be mentioned. So we are there in town, we were already in a fight and all our belongings were burned and my clothes were burned. CHAIRPERSON Please, please, please. He is giving us a jumbled version. If he is in town how can his clothing all be burned while he is in town? What is he saying? MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON I suggested to you that you should lead the witness sensibly. MR SAMUEL It seems that he is just going off on a tangent. CHAIRPERSON That is precisely why I said put leading questions to him, step by step, so that we can get a coherent story from him. MR SAMUEL Thank you. Mr Gumede we are trying to get clarity on what happened on the day in question. If you will please just answer the questions I put to you, we will go over everything you need to say, but please answer the questions only. Right? Now you mentioned that you went to town on the day in question. Is that correct? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL And you were in the company of other persons? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL And you met the deceased, Bhekumuzi Zondi at Mr Roosters? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL Now how did you know Bhekumuzi Zondi? MR GUMEDE I knew him from the township because we were residing in the same street, Komba road. He was the UDF member and I was IFP member. MR SAMUEL You knew him from the township as being a member of the UDF? When you say UDF do you mean the United Democratic Front at that stage? MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL And you were a member of the IFP? MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL Prior to this day in question, did you have any reason or any conflict with the deceased? CHAIRPERSON Him personally? MR SAMUEL Yes, Your Honour. MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL You mentioned that your clothes were burned, when were your clothes burned? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Please just stop there Mr Samuel. You say that about a month before this incident your clothes were burned? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Just stop, just stop. I am talking about your clothes. You say our clothes, are you talking about your clothes that were burned? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE Yes, I was told and I could actually see from town, because I am sure I saw the smoke. CHAIRPERSON You were telling us what happened on the day that you met the deceased in town. Now you said to us that you went there to buy underwear because you were going to Ncuthu. MR GUMEDE The congress is at Ulundi. CHAIRPERSON Not at Ncuthu? MR GUMEDE No not at Ncuthu at Ulundi. CHAIRPERSON This is a congress of what body? MR GUMEDE IFP. CHAIRPERSON Now then, you come there in town, you see the deceased and you utter these words "here is the meat". MR GUMEDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON By that you said you meant that here is the person we must kill. MR GUMEDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Who gave you instructions to kill this person? MR GUMEDE As there was this war nobody would actually give us the instruction. Anybody would fight. The UDF and the IFP would fight and nobody would have surely told anyone to do whatever, so if they would meet, they would actually attack you in one way or another. CHAIRPERSON And as a result of your uttering these words, what happened? MR GUMEDE Nhlanhla Dladla is the one who was next to me. As I was saying, his gun was already out. As soon as I uttered those words Nhlanhla shot at him and then he fell down, and then he continued shooting. CHAIRPERSON Where was your gun? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Had you been charged with murder? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON How long were you in jail at that time? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON And this incident occurred on what day? MR GUMEDE This incident was on Thursday. CHAIRPERSON Yes. As a result of your telling Nhlanhla, he pulled out his gun and shot the deceased. What happened next? MR GUMEDE Thereafter we actually ran away. We went to Matimatolo where we resided with the other comrades. CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE Matimatolo. CHAIRPERSON Where is that? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Will you take the story from there. They ran away to this place Matimatolo, will you carry on from there please? MR SAMUEL Did you get to Matimatolo on that day? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL MR GUMEDE Yes, I and the taxi man, we were actually in the same organisation with the taxis so as this incident had occurred we actually went to the taxi rank and boarded the one taxi which was ready for us. We boarded that taxi and it took us straight to Matimatolo. CHAIRPERSON What happened there at Matimatolo after you arrived? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Do I understand his evidence to be that they arrived at Matimatolo, that he arrives at Matimatolo, some of his friends get out of the taxi and he goes back to town again? MR SAMUEL That seems to be his evidence, My Lord. Why did you come back from Matimatolo into town? CHAIRPERSON What does he say? MR GUMEDE It was the same day when we actually on arrival, some of the people went out of the taxi and some of us went back by the same taxi to town. MR SAMUEL Why did you go? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON You have now come back to Greytown and then what happens when you are back in Greytown? MR GUMEDE On arrival I went to the shop, Asmal, it is nearby Mr Rooster, and then I bought the underwear and then took them to the kombi and then I sat there at the rank and then the sergeants came and they told me that the Station Commander wants me. Then I boarded the car because they were in a Golf. I went then to the Station Commander. On my arrival they told me that I must be arrested because it is that I am the one who shot that person. CHAIRPERSON Go slowly please. I want to convey my remarks to the interpreter. Have you enough time to interpret all that he is saying or do you find that he is too fast for you? INTERPRETER Well at times if he is too fast I do stop him but at the moment I was on the same par with him. CHAIRPERSON Some of us are finding it difficult to keep up with him. I would rather that you give his answers, instead of allowing him to make a lengthy statement, for you to break down his answers so that we can take it down sensibly. INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Please. Yes, he arrives at the taxi rank, waits there and a sergeant comes there and takes him away to the police station. Am I right in that? MR GUMEDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is he the only one that was taken to the police station or were there others with him? MR GUMEDE I was the only one. Yes, I was the only one. CHAIRPERSON What happened after you were brought to the police station and told that you were arrested? What happened after that? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Carry on, what happened after that? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON What is the answer? He answered you and you asked him questions. INTERPRETER No, no, no I was surely repeating the same thing I was saying to you so that he could slow down. We are still there when he actually is denying everything. CHAIRPERSON He said I did not shoot. INTERPRETER MR GUMEDE And then he also heard that Nhlanhla at Matimatolo had died, shot by the police. CHAIRPERSON Who is talking now? INTERPRETER This sergeant Zondo is telling him that Nhlanhla was shot at Matimatolo. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Just hold it. So Sergeant Zondo told him that Nhlanhla had been shot at Matimatolo. What happened after that? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON You were convicted of the murder of the deceased in 1993 and then you were released on bail because you went on appeal. Is that it? MR GUMEDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON How much bail? MR GUMEDE It was R1 000. CHAIRPERSON Who paid that money? MR GUMEDE I paid because I was already working somewhere. CHAIRPERSON And then was your appeal heard, actually? MR GUMEDE It actually surprised me because I was there and then I was out at new prison and then ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON My question was, was your appeal heard? Did the appeal take place? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Can you tell me whether there was in fact an appeal or merely an application for leave to appeal, which was refused. MS MTANGA The permission for leave to appeal was granted Chairperson. And then the matter was taken on appeal. CHAIRPERSON And the appeal was dismissed? MS MTANGA And the appeal was dismissed. CHAIRPERSON I am told by the leader of evidence that your appeal was heard and your appeal was dismissed, in other words you lost the case on appeal. Did you know that? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON So when did you go back to prison to serve your sentence? MR GUMEDE Once I was outside on the bail appeal, the same year in 1993, end of the month, a certain guy who is a brother to Delisani came to Durban Station where I was. CHAIRPERSON Hold it. You mentioned a name. In 1993 at the end of the month, what month are you talking about? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Where were you taken to? MR GUMEDE After I was released on the appeal bail I went back to Umlazi. Whilst I was at Umlazi, I was still scared of carrying a gun, because other people were looking for me. CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON You were out on your bail while your appeal was pending. MR GUMEDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, what happened then? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL May I assist the Commission? CHAIRPERSON Yes please. This is as clear as mud just now. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON While he was still on bail? MR SAMUEL That is correct, Mr Chairman. MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL And the deceased in that case was Tosayama, am I correct? CHAIRPERSON Just hold it. MR GUMEDE It was Aetsoanyana. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that? MR SAMUEL Tsoanyana. MR GUMEDE If its Letsonyana, it is Letsonyana (spelled). CHAIRPERSON Where was this man Letsonyana killed? MR GUMEDE In Durban Station, Umgeni Road. CHAIRPERSON So now the murder of Letsonyana took place within a month of your being released on bail for the first crime. Did you know this man? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR SAMUEL That is the evidence in regard to your first application because the Letsonyana case is another application for amnesty, am I right? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL May we then complete the Zondi matter before we proceed to the Letsonyana matter, before we get confused. Now just one question in regard to the Zondi matter. You told this Commission at the time that you were involved in this incident, you were not in possession of a firearm because you had just come out of jail on that Monday? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL Being your Attorney it is my duty also to assist this Commission insofar as the application you made. In the statement of your application at page 6 of the bundle, you say that "I was also in possession of a 9 mm pistol but I did not intend to take part in the killing." CHAIRPERSON Place that before him. MR SAMUEL You confirm that that is your statement? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Yes see, this statement of yours reads Now your attention is drawn by your attorney to what you have said in that statement. Now before you answer anything else, is that statement correct or have you lied? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON No we are talking about not only that you know her, but the important part of the statement is the fact of your being in possession of a gun and you say that that statement is correct? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR SAMUEL As the Chairman pleases. So your evidence is that you were in possession of a 9mm pistol on the day in question. MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL So now the evidence that we have before us, am I correct in saying that you are asking for amnesty, not for the killing of Bhekumuzi Zondi, but rather for giving the order to kill Bhekumuzi Zondi, or for bringing about the death of Bhekumuzi Zondi, is that correct? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL So do you take full responsibility for the death of Bhekumuzi Zondi, although in your version you say you did not fire the shot that killed him? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Just hold it. What happened to that pistol that you had that day? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR SAMUEL Mr Gumede, are you sorry for your actions, for bringing about the death of Mr Zondi? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL Is there anything else you would like to tell the Commission in regard to this matter? MR GUMEDE ADV SANDI Mr Gumede are you saying Nhlanhla left the UDF because he did not like Zondi? MR GUMEDE Yes, they never got along very well, but I never investigated as to what caused that but they left UDF and they became ZIM and after that they became the IFP. They never liked Bhekumuzi but I never had a personal problem with Bhekumuzi. ADV SANDI Amongst the names you have mentioned, is there any other person who had left the UDF because he did not like Zondi? MR GUMEDE ADV SANDI Alright, amongst the names you have mentioned, who else was UDF before joining IFP? MR GUMEDE Wonder Ximba was also among them. Their parents were IFP. Wonder and Nhlanhla. ADV SANDI What about Bheki Chamane? MR GUMEDE No, I am not certain about Bheki Chamane, but I know him from Hammersdale. He had relatives at Gwakamane in Greytown. ADV SANDI Had he been a member of the UDF before joining the IFP? MR GUMEDE Yes, he was UDF, not in Greytown but in Hammersdale. When he arrived in Greytown he became IFP member. ADV SANDI Thank you. ADV BOSMAN May I just interpose here please? CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV BOSMAN Mr Gumede, I just want clarity on this. You said you were a leader in the IFP, a youth leader. Is that correct? MR GUMEDE ADV BOSMAN Did you have any position? Were you a chairman or a committee member or anything like that? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL That is the evidence for the Applicant in this matter. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL IN THIS MATTER CHAIRPERSON What was the evidence in the trial at Court about the gun with which the deceased was killed? MR SAMUEL As far as the evidence went Mr Chairman that gun was not recovered at the scene, all that was recovered was the cartridges, there was no gun recovered at the scene or from the accused in the matter. ADV SANDI MR SAMUEL MR GUMEDE The gun which was used to kill Mr Zondi is the gun which was found when Nhlanhla was arrested. CHAIRPERSON Is there evidence in that regard? Is there any reference to it in the Judgment? ADV SANDI There is no ballistic evidence in this report. CHAIRPERSON I see. On how many previous occasions have you been arrested for the death of people and let out because there was not case? Were there many such occasions? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL At page 18 it makes some reference. CHAIRPERSON I see that. MR SAMUEL MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON What was the sentencing imposed on him for the murder of the deceased? MR SAMUEL Fourteen years. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Samuel, if I can just come in here. I understand that you have finished your evidence-in-chief. MR SAMUEL On this count, yes. ADV SANDI That kombi, the one where you say you threw the firearm into, whose kombi was that? MR GUMEDE ADV SANDI Where was Mr Nthatsi at the time you had thrown this firearm into this kombi? MR GUMEDE ADV SANDI Was there anyone inside the kombi at the time you were throwing this firearm? MR GUMEDE Yes, there were passengers. ADV SANDI I did not quite follow you. You were giving reasons as to why the deceased had to be killed, do you mind if I can ask you to repeat that? He was a member of the UDF and there was a conflict between the UDF and the ANC and some houses had been burned. Did you say your home had also been attacked? MR GUMEDE Yes, my home was also burned down and the property inside. CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE I cannot deny that IFP people used to burn UDF houses and as a leader I can take full responsibility for IFP burning down UDF houses. CHAIRPERSON So this was something that was carrying on in that area, both sides were attacking each other. MR GUMEDE ADV SANDI So if I understand you well, Zondi was said to be one of those people who were burning the houses of members of the IFP? MR GUMEDE It is correct. In many occasions his name will be said that he was one of the people who were attacking and burning down IFP houses and IFP tried to kill him before the incident and Sipo, one IFP member, actually attempted to kill him and he was using a homemade gun, but then he failed and he was sentenced to four years. But in the area he was well known as a UDF member and an active one. ADV SANDI On the day in question, the firearm you had in your possession was unauthorised. Who was supposed to give you an authorised firearm? MR GUMEDE ADV SANDI And you say the police know you so well that they could even contact you by telephone and call you for questioning at the police station? MR GUMEDE ADV SANDI Were you generally known amongst the police, or is it the position that there were specific officers who knew you well, who would contact you by telephone and call you to the police station? MR GUMEDE We were few and the violence detectives will call me because the detectives were divided into two, there were criminal detectives and the violence detectives, so the ones who used to call me were the violence detectives, not the criminal ones. CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Yes. You have experienced many such killings? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON You must have been a very dangerous man. MR GUMEDE ADV BOSMAN Mr Gumede, how old were you at the time? CHAIRPERSON In 1991? MR GUMEDE Maybe if we can just count back, I am now 32 years old. If we can count back we will come out with my age. ADV BOSMAN I thinks its easier to tell us when were you born Mr Gumede? CHAIRPERSON 32 years ago. MR GUMEDE 1967 on the 15th of February. ADV BOSMAN 24 years old, about. MR GUMEDE Yes, I was still very young, I remembers. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Now before you lead the evidence on the second, is that what you are going to do now? MR SAMUEL Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes, just give me some background as to how in point of time the second offence, when did that take place? Would you rather finish your cross-examination on this count before we proceed to the next count? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson I would prefer that. CHAIRPERSON Yes please do that, I am sorry. Thank you. MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON You can put that to him without the necessity of having to call witnesses. MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Gumede, the mother of Bhekumuzi Zondi, Mrs Zondi, still maintains the evidence that you are the first person who shot Bhekumuzi Zondi, what do you say to this? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON So the position is that she, the mother of the deceased, actually saw a gun in your hand at that time. MS MTANGA MR GUMEDE ADV SANDI Mr Gumede, if we can just make a request which we have made to you already. When you are asked questions, you must just answer the questions and not give longwinded explanations otherwise it becomes too difficult to understand what your answer is to the question. Please. Thank you. MS MTANGA I have no further questions Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR SAMUEL Mr Chairman, in order to give the Commission some indication as to the times ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Now this relates to the murder of Letsonyana, Ntsana Colin Letsonyana. I think its page 42 of the bundle. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Just give me that page reference again. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Mr Chairman in this matter Mr Letsonyana was killed on the 28th October 1993. At that stage the accused was on bail pending appeal in the Gumede case, which evidence was just led just now. ADV BOSMAN You are referring to the Zondi case. MR SAMUEL Sorry, that is correct. Therefore I just want to bring to the attention of the Commission that there was some overflow as such in the evidence of the applicant when he referred to him being on bail in another case, when he was arrested in the Letsonyana case, so that ties up I think. May I then proceed with the evidence. CHAIRPERSON Thank you for clearing it up. EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL Now we are dealing with the Letsonyana case, this is a matter where Mr Letsonyana was killed at the Durban Station. Do you admit that you were the person that killed Mr Letsonyana on the 28th October 1993? MR GUMEDE Yes, I do. MR SAMUEL Do you also agree that you were in possession of a 9mm firearm on the day in question? MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL And that that was the firearm that was used in the murder of Mr Letsonyana? MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL And this incident took place in the toilet at the Durban station. MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL And there were policemen sitting outside or near to the toilet when you had run out of the toilet after you had shot Mr Letsonyana? MR GUMEDE Yes, there were police and when I was arrested there were two police who arrested me. MR SAMUEL That is correct. Now, Mr Gumede, is it also true that you were arrested a few minutes after the incident and almost immediately in the vicinity of where the murder took place? MR GUMEDE Yes, it was a few minutes after I killed him. They arrested me whilst I was walking towards the car. MR SAMUEL That was at Joshua Doore in Umgeni Road? MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL The matter proceeded to trial and you were found guilty for the murder of Mr Letsonyana? MR GUMEDE Yes. MR SAMUEL Now, could you tell us what happened in the toilet at the Durban station on the day in question and the reason for your killing Mr Letsonyana? MR GUMEDE Am I allowed to give a long answer here, or should I just say one thing? MR SAMUEL No, you can give us a little detail as to what transpired in the toilet and why. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Gumede, (intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL Did you know any person in whose company this man was on the day in question? CHAIRPERSON In the toilet? MR SAMUEL In the toilet or immediately outside the toilet. MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL You went to the toilet to relieve yourself, is that correct? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL Were you supposed to meet someone in the toilet to get your gun? CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL I see. Now, can you tell this Commission what happened in the toilet? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Confine yourself to what happened between you and this man, instead of all the others. Do you understand? You saw a man looking at you through the mirror. What happened then? MR GUMEDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON So what happened when you saw this man looking at you? MR GUMEDE After that I heard that people were looking for me and they wanted to kill me. CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON And so before he could cock his gun, you shot him? MR GUMEDE Yes, my one was always cocked, therefore I just took my one and I shot him. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MR SAMUEL Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now, you have been involved in these types of murders, or been in the vicinity of murders, did you live in fear, Sir, of someone killing you? MR GUMEDE Before these two incidents I have been in fear. I would be in fear and sometimes I would question if I see someone from Greytown, if I see that person somewhere, I would question why that person was there. Even when I was in Court, there were people who were saying threats, that they were going to kill me. I was shot many times. MR SAMUEL I see. So on the day in question when you went into the toilet and you saw this man staring at you, did you have fear that you might be killed in the toilet? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL Now how long before this incident did you meet the brother of the deceased, Mr Zondi, that was killed in Greytown? How long before this incident did you meet him? MR SAMUEL MR SAMUEL Just restrict yourself to the incident in Durban. Now you walked into the toilet.... CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE Yes, a week or two. CHAIRPERSON And that was in Durban? MR GUMEDE Yes, that was in Durban and I knew at the time that he was working in Greytown therefore I questioned myself as to why he was in Durban. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL It seems that way. May I just rather clear that point up for my purposes? CHAIRPERSON Yes certainly. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON He has told us he met him about a week before this incident. MR SAMUEL As the Commission pleases. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SAMUEL Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now, did you have any opportunity, when you saw this man pull out a gun, to enquire which political party he belonged to? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL Although your version seems like self-defence, did you believe that there was a political motive in this man coming in to a toilet with you and pulling out a gun? MR GUMEDE ADV BOSMAN Mr Samuel, may I just come in here? MR GUMEDE ADV BOSMAN Thank you Mr Gumede. My problem was that you made the connection after more than a week, that was my problem. CHAIRPERSON That was obviously far-fetched. MR SAMUEL Mr Gumede, at the trial of this matter it seemed that this was an ordinary killing for the purposes of robbery. Did you take any firearms from the deceased on the day in question? Did you rob the deceased after you had shot him? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL "I aimed at his hand and on not seeing the firearm falling, I thought that I had missed and I shot him on his head." Now, Sir, at the trial the postmortem report did not show any head injuries, rather what it showed is a chest injury and an injury to the cheek where the bullet had gone through the throat. Now what do you mean when you say that you shot him on the head? Could you explain to the Commission please? MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL Thank you, Mr Gumede. MR GUMEDE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL ADV BOSMAN Mr Samuel, just clear up something for me. If you could perhaps refer me, or the Committee, to the page, you mentioned that the Court found that this was robbery, could you just refer us to the relevant section please? MR SAMUEL If the Commission will bear with me. MR GUMEDE MR SAMUEL matter that suggested that this was a senseless killing with the purposes of robbery. ADV BOSMAN MR SAMUEL It seems that I have misconstrued something. I notice at page 57 of the record that there is no such finding. May I then withdraw that submission, Madam Chair? ADV SANDI Yes, but I thought, Mr Samuel, that is in terms of what appears in the contents of the papers that we have in front of us, that the Applicant had made a statement in Court, a plea actually, admitting to having killed the deceased and he said he was doing so in self-defence. MR SAMUEL That is correct. In his plea to the possession of firearms, and he pleaded not guilty to murder but to the possession of a firearm and the robbery he submitted a plea. In that plea he stated that he had killed in self-defence. CHAIRPERSON ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON What was he convicted of, just murder? MR SAMUEL Yes he was convicted of the murder plus the possession of the firearm together with the ammunition. CHAIRPERSON And the sentence was? MR SAMUEL 25 years for murder. CHAIRPERSON Does this run concurrently or separately from the first one? MR SAMUEL No, separately from the first one. ADV BOSMAN MR SAMUEL Yes, because the Judge did mention that it had no relation to the first murder. ADV BOSMAN CHAIRPERSON Where does all this appear? ADV BOSMAN On page 64 of the bundle, Mr Chairman. MR SAMUEL ADV BOSMAN It is a suggestion, however. MR SAMUEL It was not a finding by the Court. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Any cross-examination on this? MS MTANGA No questions, Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON So what is the present position as far as his actual terms of imprisonment are concerned? He was sentenced to 14 years on the first murder of Mr Zondi and now he is serving a further 25 years? MS MTANGA 27 years. CHAIRPERSON 27 years altogether? MS MTANGA For the second offence. CHAIRPERSON Have you any questions? ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, Chairperson. We will adjourn now and resume at a quarter to 2. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION DENNIS FELAMANDLA GUMEDE (s.u.o.) MS MTANGA Chairperson, can I just clarify, are you asking in relation to the second offence? CHAIRPERSON Now, apart from the fact that he asked you your name, you had had no argument with him before that, had you? MR GUMEDE No, I actually thought I would find the family here and they would be the ones who would actually tell me. I just considered him as a person who was attacking me. CHAIRPERSON We are not talking about the family now, just think about yourself before you shot him. I am talking at that time. Do you understand? Just talk about what transpired. My question was, before the actual shooting, there was no argument between him and you, apart from the fact that he asked you for your name and you did not want to give him your name. MR GUMEDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Neither did he assault you or punch you? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON He did nothing physical to you except pull out his gun? MR GUMEDE Yes he took out his gun. CHAIRPERSON MR GUMEDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was there anybody else, when you were in the toilet, that you noticed or spoke to, apart from this man with the gun? MR GUMEDE There were a lot of people that I knew, however, I did not speak to them because everything happened so fast. CHAIRPERSON When you walked into the toilet, you walked in normally? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON Wait, what do you mean by that? You say you put it to the Court in another way. What do you mean by that? MR GUMEDE Actually, this case was problematic to me, the way it had happened, so I actually thought that I should lie and then say that, I actually lied in Court and stated that the person that I bumped into at the door as I was rushing, it was him. That was a lie. CHAIRPERSON Was there any other lie in your evidence at that time about the scene in the toilet? MR GUMEDE CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL No questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are you calling any other witnesses. MR SAMUEL No further witnesses Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SAMUEL IN ARGUMENT Mr Chairman, in the Application for Amnesty of Dennis Gumede, for the death or murder of Bhekumuzi Zondi, it is my submission, Mr Chairman, that all the provisions, all the elements for the granting of amnesty to this applicant have been proved. It is abundantly clear that the motive for the killing of Bhekumuzi Zondi was a political objective. In this regard, I wish to refer the Honourable Commission to page 18 of the bundle of documents, to the Judgment of your learned brother, Judge Thirion. At the 27th line the Judge says :"It is obvious that the deceased was killed as part of the ongoing struggle between the ANC and INKATHA". The Judge further goes on to say: "the accused is a prominent member and office bearer of INKATHA". In regard to the order, Your Worship, it is clear that the applicant in this matter had given the order because he was regarded as the leader at that point in time. CHAIRPERSON What order are you talking about? MR SAMUEL The order to kill. When he told his comrades "here is the meat". CHAIRPERSON What have you to say about that? MR SAMUEL According to the applicant, that was an order or an indication by him to his comrades that they should kill the deceased and it was because of this order that the deceased was killed. CHAIRPERSON So what were you saying about the reason for him giving the order? MR SAMUEL In the circumstances, it is my submission that the applicant should be granted amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Carry on. MR SAMUEL May I proceed CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do carry on. MR SAMUEL On the Letsonyana case. Mr Chairman, in the application for amnesty in regard to the Letsonyana case, it is my submission that the accused should be considered for amnesty. Mr Letsonyana ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON The applicant you mean, rather than the accused. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON You were referring to him as the accused, you mean the applicant. MR SAMUEL My apologies, Mr Chairman. Whilst there is no direct evidence that he acted under a political order, at the time of shooting the deceased, Mr Letsonyana, it is my submission that nevertheless, it has never been proved otherwise, that there was no political motive involved. It is quite clear ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL That is what I am going to do. CHAIRPERSON Why is that obvious? People feared him and kept away from him. He seems to be the one that has gone around doing a lot of shooting. MR SAMUEL As much as that is the case Your Worship, that he was feared by the people whilst he was in the area, now that he was not in the area it would be far more easier to get rid of him because he would not have pulled the trigger, neither would he have had accomplices or all people to defend him if an attempt on his life had been made. Be that as it may, as far-fetched as it may seem, Mr Chairman, it is not expected of me to say that the applicant has made no case. CHAIRPERSON I understand the limitations you have. MR SAMUEL I have these limitations. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL It is far fetched Your Worship because we cannot find the necklace between the death of Bhekumuzi Zondi and the death of Mr Letsonyana, but be that as it may, I would still urge this Honourable Commission to consider the motive. It is quite clear that the applicant in this matter had not robbed the deceased on the day in question. The evidence that was led at the trial showed that the deceased was in possession of two firearms. If robbery was the motive it would have been easy for him to have removed those firearms. CHAIRPERSON No, I think we accept that, robbery was not the motive. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL That might have been the position. CHAIRPERSON And suspected him of some offence or the other. It had nothing to do with who is your name, or what is your name, whether he knew the name of the man or not, the other person. Now this other person may have had all kinds of reasons to ask these questions. He may have mistaken him for somebody else. We are in the field of great conjecture here as to why this resulted. There is not the faintest tinge that any political consideration arose in the mind of the applicant at the time. MR SAMUEL That is quite true. CHAIRPERSON You see, subsequently he may have sat down in jail and started thinking of all the possible reasons why this may have happened, but at the time that he killed, he was not being driven by a political motive or a political objective. The rest is rationalization. MR SAMUEL I have foreseen that difficult. In the circumstances, may I submit, may I leave the decision of this matter in the hands of the learned Commission? Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is there anything you wish to say? MS MTANGA IN ARGUMENT Yes Chairperson, thank you. It is my submission on behalf of the Zondi family that the applicant has not given full disclosure regarding the death of Bhekumuzi Zondi in that he has failed to give evidence regarding his involvement in this matter. According to Mrs Zondi, the applicant did actually shoot the victim and he had denied that evidence before this panel. It is on these grounds that the family feels the Committee should refuse his application. My submission regarding the death of Mr Letsonyana. I submit that the applicant had no political motive in killing Mr Letsonyana. His efforts of linking the death of Bhekumuzi Zondi and his fears of the Zondi family are far fetched, Chairperson in that the incident of Zondi took place on the 18th of July 1991, the applicant was arrested a day later. He was on bail soon after and the incident of Mr Letsonyana took place in 1993 and he had been on bail all this time. He has given evidence that he had appeared, he had made several appearances in Court, where his matter would be remanded each time and the family had ample time to do anything, if they did do anything, to Mr Gumede. CHAIRPERSON In other words, if the Zondi family wanted to take revenge on him there was ample time after he was released on bail. MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Something like 2 years at least. MS MTANGA ADV BOSMAN MS MTANGA Madam Chairperson, if one looks at the Judgment, there was consistent evidence from Mrs Zondi, even at the time of the incident, when the police found her next to the body of her son. She had indicated that the applicant had committed the murder. ADV BOSMAN MS MTANGA Well, Chairperson, I would say that there is that possibility. CHAIRPERSON But she was cross-examined at length. At the trial she was questioned, the evidence was tested. MS MTANGA And the Court accepted her evidence. If there is any question to be applied, I would say the Court did so, and found the evidence credible and the applicant was convicted on those grounds. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. MR SAMUEL May I just make one submission? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SAMUEL There is no explanation given by any side, either the Court or anybody as to how the gun that was used in the murder eventually found its way to Mr Nhlanhla Dladla, because that gun was eventually found on his body and the applicant at that stage did not know that Nhlanhla Dladla was in fact killed. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL I can see that. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. The Committee have heard the application, they will consider the application and in due course will make known its decision to all the parties concerned. Will you kindly convey to those who are here as defendants that when the Committee makes its decision it will be made known to them. Ms Mtanga, will you, after the hearing, convey this to the defendants that our decision will be made known to them in due course? MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON And you will make the list of the people who are the direct descendant or rather dependent of the victims and make that known to the R&R Committee. MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON And their addresses as well, just in the event of there being any possibility of reparations. We start at 9.30 tomorrow. Mr Samuel are you appearing in the matter tomorrow? MR SAMUEL I will be appearing and I will get here early. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We will adjourn now and resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS .