amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-19 PIETERMARITZBURG 3 BONGANI GILBERT NGOBESE AM3480/96 DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY OF DINGIDAWO XULU : ATTEMPTED MURDER OF DINGIDAWO XULU: MUNTU ELIAS KHUZWAYO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53400&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99051721_pmb_990519pm.htm CHAIRPERSON Mr Gabriel, you’re appearing for the applicant? MS GABRIEL Yes Chairperson, I am instructed by ¼(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON On reading of the papers it is quite clear that the applicant was just one of a number of people who had been involved in the offences that gave rise or that give rise to this application. In our papers several names are mentioned by the applicant. Ms Mtanga can you tell us whether you have the names of all the others who were convicted with the applicant in this matter? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson I do. Page 15 of the record, bundle. According to the applicant, that is Bongane Gilbert Ngobese ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MTANGA Accused no 1 to 4 were the people convicted. CHAIRPERSON Just let me take that down. He himself was accused number 4 in the trial. MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, that is so. And then accused number 5 to number 9 were acquitted by the Verulam Magistrate Court, so they never appeared before the High Court. Out of the four people convicted, the first three people, Accused 1 to 3, applied for indemnity and they were granted indemnity. The applicant was unable to apply for indemnity at that time. CHAIRPERSON Is there any information as to when the indemnity was granted to these three. MS MTANGA I didn’t obtain that Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Pardon? MS MTANGA I didn’t obtain that Chairperson, but maybe the applicant could assist us. CHAIRPERSON Ms Gabriel, do you have any information in that regard? MS GABRIEL Mr Chairperson, on the information on the papers, the co-accused were released on indemnity on or about the 16th June 1994. CHAIRPERSON Is there any other information on the papers relating to this grant of indemnity? MS GABRIEL Apart from that date, no there isn’t Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON It may become necessary for us, after we’ve heard the evidence, just to have a more complete picture in our mind, to ascertain the reasons for the indemnity that was granted to these three and any other detail as to the circumstances which led to the grant of indemnity to them. Thank you. Ms Gabriel, you are calling the applicant? MS GABRIEL Yes Mr Chairperson. But before I do, the applicant has prepared a written statement. Unfortunately due to an administrative oversight, this was not included with the bundle of papers prepared. May I have leave to hand it up? CHAIRPERSON Just now. BONGANI GILBERT NGOBESE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON You have consulted with the dependants of the victims? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson I have done so. CHAIRPERSON You will be representing some of them? MS MTANGA Yes, that is so. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Ms Gabriel. MS GABRIEL Mr Chairperson, as previously noted the applicant has prepared a statement. I apologise that this was not included in the bundle of papers. It is substantially the evidence that will be led today and I hand it up. CHAIRPERSON Is this in the form of an affidavit? MS GABRIEL It is in the form of an affidavit, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Fortunately we do have this statement, this affidavit. MS GABRIEL Thank you for drawing that to my attention. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. This statement, or the affidavit is in fact dated, is there a date on it? 7th of May 1999. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may proceed. EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Ngobese, you are currently in prison serving a term of imprisonment for crimes that were committed on or about 11th to the 12th of January 1990. MR NGOBESE Yes. MS GABRIEL Could you tell the Committee exactly what these crimes were and how it is that you came to be convicted for these crimes? CHAIRPERSON Can we, just for the sake of formality, get a few personal details of the individual before you get down to this aspect of the murder? MS GABRIEL I apologise Mr Chairman. Mr Ngobese, what are your full names please, for the record. MR NGOBESE Bongane Gilbert Ngobese. MS GABRIEL What is your age? MR NGOBESE 40 years old. MS GABRIEL And is it correct Mr Ngobese that you are currently at the Westville Prison, serving a term of imprisonment? MR NGOBESE Yes, that’s correct. MS GABRIEL Could you please describe the offences for which you are serving your time of imprisonment? MR NGOBESE Yes I can explain. It is a case involving a murder of the family members of Dingidawo Xulu. MS GABRIEL Surrounding those events that you were convicted of, I apologise Mr Chairman, there appears to be a problem. Mr Ngobese, is it correct that you were found guilty of 13 counts of murder, 2 counts of attempted murder and 1 count of arson? MR NGOBESE Yes, that’s correct. MS GABRIEL Will you please tell the Committee how these events arose? MR NGOBESE Yes. In 1989 I was elected by the community of Cottonland to be one of the members of the Committee and the name of the Committee was Cottonland Crisis Committee. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR NGOBESE I was elected as a vice-chairman of that committee. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NGOBESE Others who were elected were Kolane Mlambo, the other one was Mfanange Makatini, the other one was Bongani Emmanuel Mgathe and the other one was Bernard Nyembe. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NGOBESE We were elected because there was violence in that area from 1980, there was violence between ANC and IFP. MS GABRIEL May I interrupt you? What do you mean by violence between ANC and IFP? Could you possibly describe to the Committee examples of this? MR NGOBESE What I mean is that IFP and ANC didn’t see through one eye. ANC wanted to be the ruling party in that area and IFP as well, also wanted to be the ruling party in that area. CHAIRPERSON When you say the ruling party in that area, were you talking about control of that area? MR NGOBESE Yes, I mean that they wanted to be the controlling party in that area, and also ANC wanted to be the controlling party. CHAIRPERSON But the ANC was banned at that time and it was not in existence. Isn’t that so? MR NGOBESE Yes, I can agree with that statement, but at that time IFP would force the community who were ANC to become IFP. ANC was there because UDF was in existence. So UDF members were considered to be ANC members. CHAIRPERSON In other words when you are saying ANC you really meant UDF at that time. MR NGOBESE Yes, we were UDF at that time. CHAIRPERSON So I think that, to be correct, if you are talking about that time, instead of using the word ANC you must talk about the UDF. Alright? MR NGOBESE Yes, that’s correct. Even though I cannot say it’s so much correct because when we started the nominations and the elections it was in 1989, it was because of the situation in that area. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese you were telling the Committee that the Cottonfields Crisis Committee was formed. Could you explain why this Committee was formed and who these people were? MR NGOBESE As I’ve already mentioned that I was elected as a vice-chairman, there were complaints from the Community. The community wasn’t happy by being controlled by the IFP and then Dingidawo Xulu was the person who was IFP member. MS GABRIEL Please continue. MR NGOBESE At that time IFP wanted everyone who was an ANC member to leave the area and another thing which was common with the IFP, they used to force people to join IFP. MS GABRIEL The people that you refer to, were these people ANC members or did they sympathise with the ANC, you earlier told the Chairperson that it's more correctly described as UDF members. MR NGOBESE At that time they were UDF followers or supporters. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR NGOBESE At that time if one didn’t like to join IFP, that person was going to be forced to either join IFP or to leave the area. This is what IFP used to do to the people in that area. ADV BOSMAN Can you tell us in what manner they were forced to leave the area? MR NGOBESE One will either be sjamboked, or you will be told that if you don’t want to become an IFP member, better leave the area or you will be killed. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. MS GABRIEL Please continue. So you were elected vice-chairperson of the Cottonfields Crisis Committee. What did you hope to achieve on this Committee? Why was the Committee formed? MR NGOBESE The aim for this Committee was to fight against what IFP were doing to the community. Since there was violence in that area, we wanted the community to live peacefully in that area and we didn’t want violence in that area and we didn’t want the community to be harassed in any way. MS GABRIEL So who elected you onto this committee? MR NGOBESE At that time a meeting was held in a certain school called Golden Steps School. The community actually called for that meeting and the community elected us, that’s how we were elected. ADV BOSMAN May I just interpose here please Ms Gabriel. Mr Ngobese, what I don’t follow, perhaps you can just clarify that. You say the community, what do you mean by the community because apparently a large section of the community were IFP members, so what is the community, who were the community? MR NGOBESE The UDF supporters who were community members in that area, who didn’t like what IFP was doing in that area. MS GABRIEL Please tell the Committee what happened after you were elected onto the Cottonfields Crisis Committee. MR NGOBESE We held meetings, we had frequently held meetings and my job was to take complaints from the community and I would take these complaints to the Crisis Committee. What I would do as well, I used to help the Red Cross if there were floods, to help the community, for instance if the community needed shelter, and also I would help, because there was a certain bus company called Riteousins and I would go to that company and help the community by transportation and I will also go to Jobelela Ndlovu and we will try and resolve the community problems together. CHAIRPERSON Let’s just get something clear. He’s talking about personal activities with the Red Cross and dealing with transport problems. I think we are talking more particularly, not his activities just now, but the activities of the Committee. So let’s just get that done. If he has finished about his own personal activities, let us complete, I’m sorry, so he assisted the Red Cross to help flood victims, he dealt with transport problems. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, you have told this Committee now about your personal actions in the community and how you helped the community. Please describe the actions of the Committee leading up to the events for which you were convicted. MR NGOBESE What the Committee will do was to help the community with regard to the problems the community will be facing. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, may I just interrupt you. I’d like you to focus on the events for which you were convicted. You were convicted for murder and attempted murder and arson. Could you please describe to the Committee how these events arose? MR NGOBESE As I’ve already mentioned that the Committee was elected because the community wanted to object what Inkatha was doing to them. The committee was involved in solving problems of the community. The problems ¼(intervention) CHAIRPERSON How did this Committee solve the problems? Tell us precisely some of the problems and how they were solved. You have told us in broad political terms of what Inkatha was doing in the area, compelling people to join Inkatha or leave the area. I want to know how the problems that you are talking about were handled or solved. What problems? MR NGOBESE We would sometimes solve problems like, we will discover dead bodies and we knew that it was the results of Dingidawo Xulu. Other problems which we would face in that area, there were males who were forced by Dingidawo that they should pay R20 and females will be forced to pay R10 and the community didn’t like this and we were supposed to object on their behalf. CHAIRPERSON What you mean is that you resisted what was being done by refusing to pay? MR NGOBESE We didn’t want to pay because we were against paying this money. In fact we didn’t have reasons why we should pay that money. CHAIRPERSON I understand, because that money went to Inkatha and your members were not supporters of Inkatha, we understand that. So I don’t think you should repeat that. Alright? MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, maybe I should just try to bring you closer to the events for which you were found guilty, this was the killing for which you were convicted. Can you describe how those events happened? CHAIRPERSON What led up to that, or when? MR NGOBESE Yes, I can explain. After the UDF supporters have decided that they had enough, we held meetings in that area, we supporters of the ANC but sometimes our meetings wouldn’t go through as planned, or we wouldn’t even finish these meetings, because police would sometimes come and harass us because police were working hand in hand with the IFP. That’s when we decided or we realised that the police were working hand in hand with IFP and we realised that we were not safe. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR NGOBESE I had a tuck shop at home and another thing which we have also experienced was that Mr Dingidawo would force us to close down our tuck shops. On the 12th or on the 11th, I’m not sure, we decided that we were going to hold a meeting at home. We held that meeting at home. Myself, Bongani Gilbert Ngobese, Kholane Mlambo, Bongani Emanuel Mgathe and Bernard Nyembe. MS GABRIEL So these were members of the Crisis Committee? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS GABRIEL And what was decided at that meeting? MR NGOBESE The reason we held the meeting, there were boys from Mahlatini family who died. They died because of a fight which occurred between the supporters of ANC and IFP. MS GABRIEL Who are these boys, Mahlatini? MR NGOBESE Dingidawo Xulu, it's also Mahlatini. CHAIRPERSON How can he also be Mahlatini. Is his name Mahlatini or Xulu? MR NGOBESE I would say Xulu and Mahlatini is the same names or the clan name. It’s a clan name. MS GABRIEL Yes, you were telling the Committee that two boys of the Mahlatini family were killed. Please continue. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I think I want some particulars about that. When were these Mahlatini boys killed? MR NGOBESE Even though I cannot remember the exact date, they died in those days. CHAIRPERSON In those days – how many days before this meeting that you held? MR NGOBESE I think it was after a week, I am not sure, but the meeting was held after the Mahlatini boys were killed. CHAIRPERSON Where were they killed? MR NGOBESE There was a certain area called GG it was next to the sugar cane field, that’s where they were killed. CHAIRPERSON Were you present when they were killed? MR NGOBESE I arrived at that place later, after they were killed. There were incidents which happened when I was there and there were those which I wasn’t there. This one I came after they were killed. CHAIRPERSON Who were they killed by? MR NGOBESE I wouldn’t be sure because it was a violence or a fight. It wasn’t easy for one to actually ascertain who actually killed. I arrived there when they were already killed. CHAIRPERSON By which group were they killed? MR NGOBESE ANC supporters. CHAIRPERSON How were they killed? MR NGOBESE I heard that they were stabbed and some of them were slayed. CHAIRPERSON What is that last word? They were stabbed and what? Interpreter please tell me what was the last word, they were stabbed and ? The interpreter used a word after the word stabbed, please tell me what was the word? INTERPRETER Slain, or cut on the throat. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Do carry on. ADV BOSMAN May I just ask you, why did you go there? Why did you go to where this happened? MR NGOBESE It was a usual thing. There were fights all the time and every time there were fights we used to inform each other and that’s why I went there, because I knew that there was a fight there. ADV BOSMAN But what did you want to do there? What was your aim of going there? Just to look? MR NGOBESE I went there to fight because we were fighting with the IFP. ADV BOSMAN Did you fight when you got there? MR NGOBESE No I didn’t. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Ms Gabriel. CHAIRPERSON Just let’s clear this up you see. You arrived at a place because you had heard that somebody had been killed. Is that why you went there? MR NGOBESE No, I went there because I heard that there was going to be a fight. Inkatha people were going to attack the UDF or ANC people. CHAIRPERSON Or is it also possible that the ANC people were going to attack the Inkatha people? MR NGOBESE Yes, it was possible, as I have already mentioned that there was violence in the area. CHAIRPERSON You talk about violence in the area, the impression you have created is that the violence was always started by one side, Inkatha would be the ones. What I want to know, to get a clearer picture. I want to know clearly from you whether these fights involved attacks and counter attacks by both sides. MR NGOBESE Yes, one organisation will attack and the other one will attack as well. Sometimes the UDF will be first ones to attack and sometimes the IFP. CHAIRPERSON When you arrived at the scene, these two boys had already been killed. What did you do? MR NGOBESE When I arrived there the ANC supporters were there and the fight was already over. Then I came back with another group of ANC supporters. ADV SANDI But how big was this group? Can you estimate the number of people who were involved in this ANC/UDF group? MR NGOBESE It was quite a number. I will estimate that it was approximately 150 to 200 people. ADV BOSMAN But as a committee member did you not inquire who had actually done the slaying of these two people? MR NGOBESE No, I didn’t. CHAIRPERSON In whose area did the fight take place, in whose territory? IFP territory or UDF territory? MR NGOBESE Cottonland, it’s one area, but where the incident happened was an IFP stronghold. CHAIRPERSON Yes. What happened after that? A week later you were having a meeting at your house. This is a week approximately after this fight. What happened at the meeting? MR NGOBESE Our aim was to attack Dingidawo Xulu’s house because we heard that he was going to counter attack us after he had lost his two sons. MS GABRIEL How did this information come to your attention? MR NGOBESE There was a certain girl called Zethu Makoba, she was our marshal and there was another boy from Mahlatini family and they told us that Mahlatini was going to attack us. MS GABRIEL Yes, continue. So this information was discussed and what did the committee decide to do? MR NGOBESE Our aim was to attack Mr Mahlatini’s house before he could attack us. Kolane Mlambo came with this opinion or this idea that we were supposed to carry guns when we were going to attack Mr Mahlatini's house and another decision was taken by Mfanange Mahlatini that we should buy petrol. MS GABRIEL Continue please Mr Ngobese. MR NGOBESE After the meeting Mfanange came with a question or an idea. He wanted us to plan the attack to Mahlatini’s house. There was an idea that the plan may not go so well because if we go and attack Mr Mahlatini’s house, there will be his wives and his children. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV BOSMAN There is nothing coming through to me, INTERPRETER Yes, that’s because I cannot get the facts well, he is mixing the facts. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, maybe you can just repeat the last two things you said. CHAIRPERSON You have told us that there was an idea that if you attack he house his wife and children may be in the house. Carry on from there. MR NGOBESE After that Kolane came with an idea that we should put that aside and we were going to put this in a general meeting which we were going to hold at night on the same night. CHAIRPERSON What is meant by that when you say that you are going to put it aside? MR NGOBESE What I mean is that this was Mfanange’s idea, but we as a committee, we didn’t want to come to a decision as to what to do because our aim to go and attack Mr Mahlatini’s house was to kill. Now that Mfanange came with this idea, Kolane said we should put this aside as an outstanding issue. We will discuss this at the general meeting because this was a caucus meeting held by the committee members and later we were going to hold another meeting with the community which was going to be a general meeting, therefore this issue was going to be dealt within that meeting. MS GABRIEL What is this issue to be dealt with in the main meeting, in the general meeting? MR NGOBESE The issue of attacking Mr Mahlatini’s wives and children. ADV SANDI Maybe we can just get this clear. Mr Ngobese, are you saying that there was a problem that when you launch your attack at the Mahlatini family, his wife and children may be injured and killed in the process? MR NGOBESE Yes. Mfanange came with this idea that if we attack his house, we might find that his wives and his children will be there. Therefore, we as a committee, we decided that we will put this aside in that meeting but we were going to take it to the general meeting. We put this on our agenda as an outstanding issue that we were going to discuss about it later to the community in the general meeting. CHAIRPERSON What was the next thing that happened? MR NGOBESE After the caucus meeting we parted and Kolane said Zethu Makoba and Mfanange Mahlatini, Bernard Nyembe, they were supposed to be the ones who were going to tell the community on that day, I don’t remember very well whether it was the 11th or 12th, but same day, we were going to hold a meeting at night. CHAIRPERSON That same night, that is the night of the committee meeting? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS GABRIEL Was this meeting held? Did this meeting take place? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR NGOBESE On top, there was a certain area in the sugar cane field and the name of the place is called Umsinsi. Mfanange was the Chairman of that meeting. MS GABRIEL Who attended the meeting? MR NGOBESE Community members who were ANC supporters together with the committee members. I was present myself, Gilbert and Bongani. MS GABRIEL How many people were at the meeting? MR NGOBESE It is difficult to estimate. I think it was close to 250 to 300. MS GABRIEL Please continue. What happened at the meeting? MR NGOBESE Mfanange was the chairman of that meeting. He opened the meeting. He told the community about the problems we have received from them and we wanted to come out with a decision. We talked about the problems they were facing, as I’ve already mentioned that they were forced to join IFP and also another problem we talked about was that our meetings were disrupted by police and IFP and we talked about many things. CHAIRPERSON They can’t be talking about the same things over and over and over again. That night that meeting was called, not to talk about things that you’ve already been talking about. What was the purpose of that meeting that night? MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, you said that the chairman said that you needed a decision at that meeting. What was this decision? MR NGOBESE To take a decision to attack Mr Mahlatini’s house. CHAIRPERSON Was that discussed? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did people speak? MR NGOBESE Yes they did. CHAIRPERSON And what was decided? MR NGOBESE The decision was taken that we should attack Mr Mahlatini’s house. CHAIRPERSON Even though his wives and his children may be the victims, may be hurt? MR NGOBESE After the decision was taken Mfanange raised the issue that we had a problem as a committee that, when we arrived there, we might find that his wives and children are there, now we wanted the community to tell us how we should solve this problem, or run away from this problem. Usually the community members or ANC supporters in meetings, they will raise their hands to put forward their opinions. They did so, they said we should destroy Mahlatini’s family and the vote came that we should destroy him, his everything. Mfanange came with another question because there were others in the hall who said that if there were children and wives, Mahlatini only must be killed and his group. And Mfanange asked the people to vote so that they will have a majority rule. There were those who said they must leave the wives and the children and there were those who said he must be killed and his wives and his children. He also raised that those who say that Mahlatini and his family must be killed, everything must be destroyed so that we stay peacefully in the area, they must raise their hands. The majority voted for that one. The few ones who voted against this didn’t win on this one, because we took the majority vote. The majority in that meeting voted that we should attack Mahlatini and his family. ADV BOSMAN Was it to attack or to kill? Can you just make that clear? MR NGOBESE To attack and kill. MS GABRIEL After the vote, what happened next? MR NGOBESE After that Mfanange closed the meeting. We left there, we went to Umgababa Hall. MS GABRIEL Yes you went to the Umgababa hall. MR NGOBESE When we arrived there Mfanange told us to stop. There was umuti - Mfanange Mahlatini brought that umuti. CHAIRPERSON When you say he brought that umuti, what are you talking about? MR NGOBESE Mfanange came with this umuti and we asked him why he had umuti. He said he realised that most Inkatha people were using umuti whenever they were going to attack, therefore he or his group needed umuti as well and he also explained that umuti helped so that a person doesn’t have a guilty conscience, or is brave to do evil deeds. CHAIRPERSON Just slowly. I’d like to take that down. Carry on. ADV BOSMAN May I just ask one question before you carry on? Was Mfanange Mahlatini, was he related to the Mahlatinis who you were going to attack? MR NGOBESE Only the surnames. I will say they were related because they had similar surnames. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON So now Mfanange brings this umuti which is supposed to help the people and make them brave. What happened then? MR NGOBESE He also told us that most of the corpses which were found who were ANC supporter corpses, they had insufficient parts or their parts were removed, therefore they were using their private parts to make umuti. MS GABRIEL What do you mean, the dead bodies of ANC supporters had missing parts and that their private parts were used to make umuti? Do you mean that organs were missing from the bodies of ANC supporters? MR NGOBESE Yes, this is what Mfanange told us. He told us that sometimes the bodies which were found, bodies who were ANC supporters which were found dead, sometimes they didn’t have their private parts, the private parts were removed in order to make umuti. CHAIRPERSON Who would make that umuti? MR NGOBESE At that time I didn’t ask Mfanange as to who was making umuti but he told us that we were supposed to use umuti as well when we were going to attack those people because this is what he knew. CHAIRPERSON Do you understand him to say that when ANC corpses were found and some of their parts were removed, the IFP people took those parts and made umuti from them, is that what you understood or am I wrong? MR NGOBESE Yes, that’s correct. CHAIRPERSON So now, he told you this and what happened then? MR NGOBESE He gave Bernard umuti. ADV SANDI This umuti, Mr Ngobese, how did it look like, what was it actually? MR NGOBESE Green leaves and you will take these green leaves, you will put it into a bucket and then pour water. We stood on the line. CHAIRPERSON Yes carry on. ADV SANDI Who was standing on the line? MR NGOBESE We were many, but we were in front. Mfanange was right in front and he used a broom to spill the umuti on us. We left Umgababa. We went past ¼(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You have told us that Mfanange gave Bernard the umuti. Now who sprinkled the umuti on the people who were standing in the line, was it Bernard or was it who? MR NGOBESE It was Bernard Nyembe. CHAIRPERSON So he sprinkled umuti on all those who were in the line? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS GABRIEL Thank you. What happened next? MR NGOBESE We left the hall. There’s a certain shop, we arrived next to that shop and we stopped there. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, how many were you? MR NGOBESE We were many, we were about 200 to 300 and all these people were ANC supporters. CHAIRPERSON All of them had umuti put on them? MR NGOBESE Yes, they all had umuti, they were sprinkled with the umuti. MS GABRIEL You were telling us that you arrived at a certain shop, what happened then? MR NGOBESE Bongani Emanuel Mgathe called me and Bernard Nyembe. The petrol was bought by Bernard from a certain filling station called Badada. The petrol was in a 5 litre. Bongani Emanuel Mgathe took this petrol into to a certain bedroom next to his shop. I took this petrol and I also took a nail and I made a hole through the lid, a small hole. CHAIRPERSON Now, Bongani took the petrol to his bedroom which was next to his shop. And then, where were you at the time? MR NGOBESE I was with Bongani. CHAIRPERSON You went into the bedroom? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And when you were in the bedroom? MR NGOBESE When we were in the bedroom, Bongani Emanuel took the petrol and we brought it in front of his shop. CHAIRPERSON You went into his bedroom with the petrol, then you bring it back into the front of his shop? MR NGOBESE Yes. It was his shop here, his tuck shop and there’s a counter and through the tuck shop there’s another door to the bedroom. He went in his bedroom, he brought the petrol from his bedroom and put it on top of the counter in his tuck shop. That’s where we stood. CHAIRPERSON We’ll take the usual adjournment at this stage and resume in 15 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION BONGANI GILBERT NGOBESE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Do carry on. EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL (cont) Mr Ngobese, just to summarise and to bring you to the stage that we’re at. You told the committee in fairly extensive about the meeting that occurred on that day and the procession of the group to a shop at which you picked up petrol. The mandate from the group was to destroy or to kill or to eradicate Dingidawo, can you tell us now how it came to be that the attacks were made on this man that you also referred to as Mahlatini. Perhaps we could move straight into that? MR NGOBESE As I have already said, we were there at the tuck shop after taking the petrol. Mfanange was the person who has already sent Zethu Makoba to check if everybody at Mahlatini is there. CHAIRPERSON Just tell me again. Mfanange sent who? MR NGOBESE Zethu Makoba. CHAIRPERSON He sent Zethu Makoba to do what? MR NGOBESE To check if everybody at the Mahlatini’s house is there. To check that if Mahlatini is there with his group as well as the family. Indeed she went and then she came back and indicated that everybody is there. MS GABRIEL And then what happened? MR NGOBESE And then we went there. CHAIRPERSON How many of you? MR NGOBESE A big group, approximately 200 to 300. MS GABRIEL What happened there? MR NGOBESE The others would go to the main house where everybody was and then he asked the others to, those people would then actually then follow up with stones and butchers knives and all the other weapons. At that particular point in time myself, Mfanange, Bernard Nyembe, we are the ones who actually entered the house first, however, I was the one who was leading them. CHAIRPERSON Please give me the names again of those that entered the house. INTERPRETER Bongani Gilbert Ngobese, that is the applicant, Mfanange Makatini and Bernard Nyembe. CHAIRPERSON Yes you say you entered the house. What happened then? MR NGOBESE Just before we entered I was carrying a gun, parabellum, also carrying petrol. CHAIRPERSON Yes carry on. MR NGOBESE I entered and we moved to the right hand side. CHAIRPERSON Yes do carry on. MR NGOBESE And when I entered I started shooting. There were people who were seated there. The person that I noticed, that I realised was the son, that is Jabulani Mahlatini. And then Mfanange and Bernard Nyembe were on the left hand side and there were people who were asleep there. There was a female, a woman who put on a blanket, who covered herself with a blanket. I think that was the wife to Dingidawo Xulu, and then they shot, directing their shot to those people. CHAIRPERSON Who shot? MR NGOBESE Mfanange and Bernard. MS GABRIEL What did you do? MR NGOBESE I’m the one who actually started shooting on the right hand side, so they followed me on the left hand side, directing their shots to these two people on the left hand side. Thereafter I took petrol because I’ve already pierced a hole, and then I started sprinkling it next to the wall on the blanket and then I was carrying matches and I started to light the match. CHAIRPERSON Did I hear you correctly that you sprinkled petrol on the wall and on the blankets? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON How many people were there in that room? MR NGOBESE Although I did not count them, there were plenty of them and there were females there but most of them were covered in blankets so I didn’t actually take any notice of the number. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR NGOBESE Thereafter, I heard Bongani Emanuel Mgathe’s voice shouting from outside, saying that there’s Dingidawo Xulu running away. Then I went outside. There was another house on the right hand side. I entered there because I thought that’s where I’ll find him and then I realised that there’s nobody and then I poured petrol and actually burned that house. CHAIRPERSON Where were Mfanange and Bongani when you went out of this room, and Bernard, I’m sorry. Where were they? MR NGOBESE They actually followed and had assisted those who were throwing stones because the group that was standing there were actually guarding those people against people who would be coming out and would actually hit them or beat them. CHAIRPERSON The people from outside the house, had they already started throwing stones? MR NGOBESE Yes, they started as soon as they realised that the house was on fire, then they started throwing stones. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR NGOBESE Thereafter, after burning the house that was on the right hand side, when the fire was actually gaining its momentum inside the house, then I actually heard voices, that is the children’s voices and then the children were actually asking "Why are you killing us, what have we done, what has happened?" and saying that "we know that the person you are looking for is our grandfather". So what I actually make out of that is they are the grandchildren of Dingidawo, so I actually think that probably they were asleep in the bedrooms. MS GABRIEL Who were they referring to, this grandfather? MR NGOBESE Dingidawo Xulu, who is the chairman of IFP in that area. CHAIRPERSON Where were these children whose voices you heard? MR NGOBESE In the bedrooms because the main house had bedrooms. CHAIRPERSON How many children did you see? MR NGOBESE I would be making a mistake, I didn’t see the children, I only heard the voices, especially I heard the voice of that one who was shouting because there was the outcry of children, although I did not actually see them, I heard their voices. CHAIRPERSON What did you do when you heard their voices? MR NGOBESE There was nothing else that could be done because the decision was already taken that we are going to kill anything or everything and when we realised that the house was burning and there couldn’t be anyone who could leave the house at that particular point in time, then we dispersed, we ran away, moving to our own area. ADV BOSMAN Why could people not leave the house? MR NGOBESE Please repeat your question, I don’t understand it. ADV BOSMAN You say people could not leave the house, why could people not leave the house when they realised it was burning? Let me put it to you this, did you prevent them from leaving the house? MR NGOBESE Yes, the group that was outside was actually told that no one should leave the house. As we were there, our aim was that, because we have agreed that we will kill anything or everything, so no one was actually supposed to leave the house even when the fire was at its peak, we would actually hear the noise when the house was on fire. ADV BOSMAN Were there people in the house who were not family of Mahlatini? MR NGOBESE I wouldn’t say yes or no, however what I remember is that when Zethu came back she said there were the Mahlatini people and secondly, my mother actually indicated to me that she actually wanted to go to the Mahlatini and actually be in the night vigil with them. And because I myself, I had that knowledge that they were going to attack there, I told my mother not to go there, so in that sense I would actually think that because people knew that that was the IFP house, I don’t think that there would be people who would be there when you actually consider the situation in that area. ADV BOSMAN May I just ask you this, you say there was a night vigil, did you know about the vigil then before the attack? MR NGOBESE Yes. ADV BOSMAN And is my understanding correct that at a vigil it’s not only the family, also other people, that go? MR NGOBESE Yes. ADV BOSMAN And you mentioned that there were many women in the one room? MR NGOBESE Yes, I said that. However, as I’ve actually explained that there were people who were actually covered in blankets who were lying there. The only person that I identified, that I actually thought would be the wife to Dingidawo Xulu. ADV BOSMAN Did you think that the other women were all wives of Dingidawo, or did you realise that they may be other women? MR NGOBESE Well in that regard, we were actually thinking that it might be possible that it could be the daughters to Dingidawo because he had a lot of them. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. ADV SANDI Did you say it could have been the ndodagazi, sister-in-law? INTERPRETER Ndodagazi is a daughter. ADV SANDI Sorry, in my language it means something else. INTERPRETER Ndodagazi is a daughter in Zulu. MS GABRIEL So at this point the houses were on fire, people were prevented from leaving, and you told the committee that you ran away. Why did you run away? MR NGOBESE We realised that what had happened here is a crime. CHAIRPERSON You ran away because you had completed the crime. You had gone there to commit a crime. MR NGOBESE Yes, we were done. CHAIRPERSON How many shots did you fire when you entered this room? MR NGOBESE Although I can’t quite remember, it would be about 6 or 7 bullets. CHAIRPERSON Who did you aim at? MR NGOBESE There was a group on the right hand side where there was a son by the name of Jabulani Mahlatini. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but besides the son, who else was with him in that group? MR NGOBESE Although I did not count and I couldn’t identify them moreover, the only person I actually noticed was the son, Jabulani Makatini. CHAIRPERSON Do you know anything at all about your companions, how many people they shot? MR NGOBESE Well, no, because the way this thing happened it was just shooting, it was difficult at that particular point in time to count, because those people eventually stood up and actually tried to lean of the wall. However, they were actually shot. ADV BOSMAN Where did you obtain these guns? MR NGOBESE We would actually do this to the police who were working for the old government. I will actually refer to my particular one. I bought mine in the hostel at kwaMashu and the police who were working for the old regime, when they were actually going to raid and collect the guns from the hooligans, they would actually keep them in the police station and then the person who is actually watching or guarding them would actually keep in touch with those people who were in their hostels. That’s how I actually got hold of one and then I bought it from one guy by the surname of Ngobo, that is Bhekumuzi Ngobo who was a resident in a hostel, because he was able to communicate well with the police who were actually guarding these guns. CHAIRPERSON Where did your companions get their guns from? MR NGOBESE Well, I wouldn’t speak on their behalf because we’re not obtaining them from the same source. However, it was important that each and everyone in the area was supposed to have a gun. CHAIRPERSON Where did they get those guns from? MR NGOBESE It’s difficult to say where they actually obtained them because we wouldn’t ask each other where did you get yours. However, I can only indicate how I obtained mine. So it would actually be probably in connection that you know you have connection with the police, if at all you don’t have any relation with the police, then you will actually associate yourself with the person who will actually eventually contact the police on your behalf. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, at the time of this killing, what happened to Dingidawo? MR NGOBESE Dingidawo, after escaping, we actually didn’t get hold of him. We actually met at Westville prison. He was actually arrested there for murder of a girl by the name of Zethu Makoba who was the marshal. That was the day we actually met. CHAIRPERSON What has happened to him? MR NGOBESE He is the person who went to jail and then he was out of jail. I’ve heard, I’m not sure, I’ve heard that he actually passed away. I’ve heard that he was sick and eventually passed away. That’s what I’ve heard, I’m not sure. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, you gave evidence at your trial, the trial for the murder and attempted murder of people that night. Did you tell the Court then what you have told the Committee today? MR NGOBESE No, I didn’t. All that I was saying in Court were lies, such that I even actually said something about the mother of my child, who was my lover, because the police who were actually taking us, told us that we were actually going to be hanged, so if I told the truth I was going to be hanged. MS GABRIEL But the Judge in that trial did find that this was a fight that had occurred between ANC and IFP supporters. Were those issues discussed? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You say this was discussed. Are you talking about the fact that there was evidence on that in the trial? MS GABRIEL I apologise Mr Chairman, what I meant to ask was, was evidence about that led at the trial. There is, from the Judgment it would appear that the Judge did make a finding that this involved members of the ANC and of the IFP. I cannot refer you immediately to a passage, but with your leave, I will bring it to your attention. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. In the meanwhile you can carry on with your questioning. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, after you ran away, how long, what did you do after that, the night of the killing? What did you do immediately after that? MR NGOBESE During those days we wouldn’t sleep at home we would actually sleep in the bushes. Maybe for two days we wouldn’t actually sleep at home during those days. It was then eventually my turn that on the day that I actually went home, then the police came and arrested me. CHAIRPERSON When were you arrested, can you remember? MR NGOBESE Well, I wouldn’t remember the date, however it was in 1990, in the middle, during 1990. MS GABRIEL How do you feel now about your actions that evening? MR NGOBESE Very emotional or sensitive, most particularly to the family, the bereaved, the families who lost their beloved ones, to me it's hurtful or hurting because I know very well that yes people died, moreover children died and on top of that, I came here because I want to put it to the family that because it was the situation or the circumstances that forced me at that particular point in time and I would actually put it upon these people to forgive me because at that particular point in time the situation or the circumstances were difficult and everyone was actually forced in one way or another, to fight for his or her side. MS GABRIEL You mentioned that you met Dingidawo in prison. Did you speak to him? MR NGOBESE Yes, we did talk. MS GABRIEL Did you talk about what had happened that night? INTERPRETER I beg yours, did you ask a question? MS GABRIEL Did you talk about what you and members of that group did to his family and to his home? MR NGOBESE Yes, we did talk about that. That, yes, the mistake happened and that his entire home was destroyed and then as we were in jail we were actually trying to find the solution to this and he indicated that as he was there, he told me that he was there because he killed a girl, Zethu Makoba, in the area of Tongathi. That lady was in the company of, that girl by the name of Zethu Makoba was in the company of the Dhladhla boys. Then he indicated that his deeds were actually to try and avenge because what had happened to his family, he wasn’t pleased about it and then we discussed and then he said he wouldn’t hold any grudge. However, he said that if we come out of jail ¼(intervention) CHAIRPERSON All this is now irrelevant because that man has died and there will be no way in which we can test this evidence. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, is there anything else you wish to say to the Committee today in support of your application for amnesty? MR NGOBESE Yes. What I put forward to the Committee is that I came here to indicate about my remorsefulness and in the way I’ve actually done the crime. What I was saying previously, I wasn’t telling the truth, I was actually trying to hide the truth, now I am coming here to tell the truth and indicate to the Committee that I was also party to what happened to the Mahlatini family. ADV BOSMAN Ms Gabriel, may I just draw your attention to paragraph 9 of the first page, the application form of your client, under small (i), paragraph 9 (a) (i) Your client indicates there that he’s applying for amnesty on two counts of murder. Perhaps you should just attend to that. It's page 1 of the bundle. MS GABRIEL Madam Commissioner, Mr Ngobese was charged with two separate crimes, the events relating to what we’ve heard about today and the events relating to actions that occurred approximately a year later in December 1991. ADV BOSMAN Yes, that I understand, but he has given evidence that he was convicted and the record shows that he was convicted or 13 counts of murder, 2 counts of attempted murder and arson. MS GABRIEL Yes. May I draw your attention to 9(a)(ii) and (iii) and (iv). It would appear that the way that the form was filled out was, Mr Ngobese separated the counts to relate to the different events, different crimes that he was charged with. ADV BOSMAN Yes, that may be so. Are you saying that you will argue then that he is entitled to amnesty in regard to all these matters on which he was convicted? I just wanted you to clarify that. MS GABRIEL Yes, that is indeed what I will be arguing. I apologise, it would appear that this form is incorrectly filled out. CHAIRPERSON I just want to clear that up. When you say you are going to apply for amnesty on behalf of your client, is it in respect of the incident that occurred that night when the family of Xulu was attacked? MS GABRIEL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Not some other subsequent offence? MS GABRIEL Mr Chairperson, the other subsequent offence has already been heard by an Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon. MS GABRIEL And amnesty has been granted in respect of that one and it would appear to be, Madam Commissioner, that both crimes were separated and called counts, counts 1 and counts 2 and that would appear from 9 (a) (ii) which describes count 1 as the events of 12th January 1990 and count 2 as 26th December 1991. ADV BOSMAN I fully appreciate that, I just wanted to have clarity on the fact that he is applying for amnesty in respect of 13 murders, 2 attempted murders and 1 arson. MS GABRIEL Yes, that is it. Mr Chairperson I have had opportunity to leaf quickly once more through the judgment in this case which was the judgment of Mr Justice Mescin. I must apologise, the judgment does not make any reference to members of the IFP, it does however make reference to members of the ANC and that appears from page 16 of the record, in the region of line 20. I must apologise, I did not intend to mislead this Committee, there is no reference in this judgment to internecine violence between the ANC and the IFP. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS GABRIEL Mr Chairperson that is the evidence on behalf of the applicant. ADV BOSMAN If we could perhaps just return to page 16. I recall you saying that the Judge found that this once again seems to be a probability which was raised by the Judge. He said that it’s probable that at the same the ANC in this particular area had organised and implemented a ¼(indistinct) MS GABRIEL Yes, I apologise, Madam Commissioner, he did not make any finding in this regard. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GABRIEL CHAIRPERSON Any cross-examination of the applicant? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson I have some few questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese are you able to tell this Committee, when did the UDF start operating at Mahlatini for the first time? MR NGOBESE As I indicated, it was in 1980. MS MTANGA: How many people from Mahlatini were actually UDF members? How many people were actually UDF members compared to the IFP members? MR NGOBESE It would be difficult to say how many were there. A person who would actually have the knowledge, it would be Bongani Emanuel Makgathe, because he is the person who was actually letting people to join, he had all the paperwork and all the relevant documentation in that regard. MS MTANGA You have given evidence that it was the IFP that was harassing people to join them and your people became victims to this harassment. Are you able to give incidents where people were actually killed by the IFP which, as a result, instigated you to carry out the attack on Mr Xulu? MR NGOBESE As I have indicated, people were harassed, others were being expelled or chased, moved away. Yes, some people would actually leave the area. Regarding to the death of people, you would actually find that a UDF person is dead in the area and then it will be rumoured that it is related to the IFP attacks which were led by Mr Xulu. That’s the situation in the area. MS MTANGA Are you able to give this Committee names of people who were actually killed or driven away by Mr Xulu? CHAIRPERSON: First of all, let’s just get some idea as to how many people whom you regarded as UDF people had died at the hands of IFP supporters in your area? MR NGOBESE Although it’s difficult to say the number because we were not counting and writing down, but more than 15 who were actually dying. That was really on our minds at that particular point in time. MS MTANGA May I continue Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes certainly. MS MTANGA I’ll go back to my question. My question was, are you able to give names of people who were killed or driven away by Mr Xulu? CHAIRPERSON Do it step by step. First of all you want to know the names of those who were killed. And if you are going to ask for all the names of those who were driven away, you might have a long list, unless you have a special reason to want to know the names. MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese let’s start with the names of the people who were killed by Mr Xulu. CHAIRPERSON Do you know the names of all the people, the 15 odd people that were killed, ANC people? MR NGOBESE It’s difficult to explain because if I’m not mistaken, people who died it's Gerald Ndlovu, and ANC, that’s the one I remember very well and another girl, 16, I’ve forgotten the surname, thereafter we would actually find corpses and I wouldn’t ask who is this one, and what’s the surname. CHAIRPERSON So he doesn’t know the names of the people. MS MTANGA How do you know these people were killed by Mr Xulu? MR NGOBESE As I’ve explained that, mostly the rumour in the area was from the ANC community that that was done by the people who were led by Xulu, by Dingidawo Xulu. MS MTANGA So Mr Ngobese, you acted upon a rumour, you didn't have actual facts that these people were killed by Mr Xulu. Am I right? MR NGOBESE Not necessarily so that it was a rumour because in actual fact, as a person who was the vice-chairman, I would see Mr Mahlatini doing things. People who were not complying with what he was saying, people would be taken to his house and would actually be sjamboked on the buttocks and then ¼(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You didn’t see him do that. MR NGOBESE At times when I was passing by the house I would actually see that people are being sjamboked. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you wouldn’t know who they were. MR NGOBESE I would actually discover that some of them were the members who were under our UDF group. CHAIRPERSON That means you heard rumours. Is that right? MR NGOBESE Yes, at times we would hear that, but the punishment itself would actually occur when I was actually passing there and I would actually see him doing it. CHAIRPERSON The occasional whipping or sjamboking of people turns into insignificance when you compare with some of the more serious things that were done. Now when you heard after people had died and people said that the people who were killed were killed by Xulu’s people, you believed that, didn’t you? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON This had been carrying for some time? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON In how many attacks on IFP people were you involved over the years? MR NGOBESE For the second time or the one referring to the date on the 9th and the one that occurred on the 12th. MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese, the incident where two of Mr Xulu’s sons were killed, are you able to tell this Committee why were they killed? MR NGOBESE Although I cannot explain in detail, as a person who was in politics, though Mahlatini boys were actually IFP just like their father, so it was evident that they were killed because they were belonging to this political organisation. MS MTANGA Did you personally know these two boys, that is the two sons of Mr Xulu? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS MTANGA Did you personally know the family of Mr Khuzwayo, that is the son-in-law of Mr Xulu? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS MTANGA Do you know Zamukwakhe Khuzwayo, the grandson of Mr Xulu? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS MTANGA My instructions are from Zamukwakhe, are that on the day the two sons were killed, the UDF had had a meeting in a certain hall where you were also present. Zamukwakhe was present and 4 other people, included in them were the 2 sons. Do you know about this meeting on the day the 2 sons were killed? Do you know about this meeting? MR NGOBESE: Yes, I know about the meeting that occurred. However, I arrived there when the meeting was over, as I’ve indicated. Then the boys of the Mahlatini died there. MS MTANGA Did you arrive at the hall where the meeting was taking place or had just finished, or did you go to where these 2 sons were killed? MR NGOBESE In the meeting I didn’t, but where the boys were killed I did go, but the deed was already done, the killing. MS MTANGA According to Zamukwakhe you attended the meeting and the meeting was called for the youth, and he further says that the youth of the area belonged to the UDF and he was one of the people who belonged to the UDF even though his father was IFP. It was the same case with the 2 sons that were killed. They were killed because their fathers were IFP, but they actually belonged to your organisation, the UDF and that was mostly the case with all the youth in the area, do you deny this? MR NGOBESE Yes, I disagree because I would have actually portrayed that picture here, that when the meeting was held if I was there I would have portrayed that picture. As I have indicated, when I arrived the meeting was over. That’s the situation I’ve actually explained. CHAIRPERSON It is put to you that one of the grandsons of Xulu says that Xulu’s 2 sons who were killed, were actually UDF people and they were there amongst those who attended that meeting. You arrived, you say you arrived at that meeting when it was over. How are you in a position to say that they were not UDF, Xulu’s 2 sons? MR NGOBESE I will actually answer this. To say that the Xulu sons were UDF, as a person who has resided in Cottonland for years, it wasn’t UDF who was under Mahlatini. Mahlatini was an IFP and all his children were IFP. Secondly, we are referring to going to the meeting. As I’ve explained, if Zamukwakhe is saying I was there, he must indicate who was there. I don’t deny that I am not a committee member and what else I can say is that some instances would occur during my absence, as I’ve explained. This actually occurred during my absence and I actually wouldn’t lie and maybe deny it, for that matter. ADV BOSMAN What do you say about Zamukwakhe? Was he a UDF member? MR NGOBESE At that time I wouldn’t judge him because in politics during those days he was young. A lot of things that were happening at that time, he doesn’t know. Well he would speak now, however, as far as I’m concerned, when there was struggle at Mahlabatini he was too young at that time. ADV SANDI How old is this Zamukwakhe today? MS MTANGA At the time of this incident Chairperson, he was 16 years old, so he wasn’t so young. ADV BOSMAN Do you agree with that, that he was 16 years old? MR NGOBESE I wouldn’t deny that and I wouldn’t agree. ADV BOSMAN 16 years old. Would you say that that is too young to know about politics? MR NGOBESE I wouldn’t deny that. I’m actually indicating that there in the meeting, as he’s indicating that I was there, and that he was UDF, as far as I’m concerned I don’t know that. MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese, is it not true that the UDF at that time was recruiting the youth in the area and in doing so you would go house to house and try and get all the young people, Zamukwahke’s age that is, to join the UDF and attend your meetings. Isn’t that true? MR NGOBESE Please repeat so that I can hear clearly. CHAIRPERSON Is it correct that in that area UDF people went around recruiting youngsters to join the UDF? MR NGOBESE Yes, people would actually recruit, but it wasn’t by force, people were doing it voluntarily. MS MTANGA According to Zamukwakhe Khuzwayo, on the day in question, that is when the two sons of Mr Xulu were killed, they had attended a meeting with these two sons, together with two other people who were also killed in this incident, that is in the incident where the two sons were killed, actually four people were killed there. Do you know about this? MR NGOBESE Firstly I wouldn’t deny that, that there were deaths and then secondly, I wouldn’t deny that there was a meeting. What I’ve heard is that there were people who were actually going to attack, the IFP people who were going to attack on that particular day, that is what I knew. MS MTANGA In your evidence Mr Ngobese, you said you heard about the fight between the IFP and the ANC where these two sons had been killed and you went to the scene where this had taken place. What time was this, when you went to the scene of the crime? MR NGOBESE Although I can’t quite remember it was at night. Probably at about 10, half past 10, 11 at night. MS MTANGA According to the Khuzwayo family it was at about 1 o’clock in the morning when this took place. CHAIRPERSON In the afternoon? MS MTANGA At night, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON 1 a.m. Past midnight. MS MTANGA What do you say to this? MR NGOBESE I wouldn’t deny it because I wasn’t carrying any watch. I wouldn’t deny it because I was just estimating time myself. MS MTANGA It is further the evidence of the family, or my instructions from the family that in your evidence ¼ Mr Ngobese, don’t put on your mike when I am talking CHAIRPERSON Switch it off. MS MTANGA My instructions from the family are that in your evidence you have lied when you said there was a fight between IFP and the ANC in that incident. What actually transpired was that the people from the meeting, which the 2 sons and Zamukwakhe had attended, walked away, they left the hall and went to the place where they decided to kill these people, and there was no fight, no other IFP there, they were attacked by their own people that they were with at the meeting. What do you say to that? CHAIRPERSON I don’t understand your question please. MS MTANGA The facts from the family Chairperson are that CHAIRPERSON They say MS MTANGA That the incident that the applicant alleges there was a fight, and in his evidence he indicates that there was a group of IFP people fighting ANC people, as a result the 2 sons of Mr Xulu were killed. According to the family it is not so. The people who were at that scene were the very people who were at the meeting, there were no IFP people in that area. There were the people who came from the meeting with these two sons of Mr Xulu and they killed them there, which was the UDF people who killed, and there was no IFP people fighting them, because the people were actually at their homes sleeping, not aware of what was going on. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that two of Mr Xulu’s sons were killed by IFP people? MS MTANGA By UDF people after having attended the meeting of the UDF. CHAIRPERSON Yes, in other words that happened at a time when there was no fighting. They did not die in the course of a fight? MS MTANGA No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON They were just killed? MS MTANGA Yes, that is so. What do you say to this Mr Ngobese? MR NGOBESE As I’ve already indicated that I wouldn’t deny it because when I arrived that had already occurred. CHAIRPERSON But you told us you actually went there to fight, because you heard that there was going to be a fight and you went there to fight and when you arrived it was all over. That’s not true. MR NGOBESE That’s the truth. MS MTANGA Who were you going to fight, Mr Ngobese? MR NGOBESE I was going to fight with the IFP members. MS MTANGA According to Zamukwakhe, there were no IFP members. MR NGOBESE As I have indicated I won’t deny and I won’t agree. What I do not know or what I know is that those people who were killed, they were killed because they were under IFP. ADV SANDI Mr Ngobese, when you came to this place where the two sons of Mahlatini were killed, did you see any IFP people there? MR NGOBESE Please repeat. ADV SANDI When you went out to participate in the fight which you were told was between the IFP and the UDF people, did you see any IFP people when you came there? MR NGOBESE When I arrived I found UDF because people were already dispersing after the death of these Mahlatini boys. ADV SANDI As I understand Mr Ngobese, I think he’s trying to say that he was told that there is this fighting that was taking place between the IFP and the UDF people, he goes out to take part in that fight, when he gets there it’s all over. CHAIRPERSON That’s what he said. ADV SANDI That’s what he said right from the evidence in chief. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but she is putting to him that there was in fact no fight. She’s putting to him that on the information she’s got two of Xulu’s sons were killed that day, but they were not involved in a fight with IFP, there were no IFP people involved in that fight. That’s what she’s putting to him. CHAIRPERSON This information about the two sons being killed. I hear you put in your question that there were two others that were killed at that time. MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. But I think the fourth person survived, but his whereabouts are not known. CHAIRPERSON So there were five people altogether? MS MTANGA There were four people who were attacked by this UDF group, who had also attended this meeting that they came from and the fourth person survived. CHAIRPERSON Three were killed. MS MTANGA Three died and two of the three were Mr Xulu’s sons. Mr Ngobese, in your evidence you were saying that you only heard that there was a fight. Subsequent to the death of these three people and injury of this fourth person, did you find out or did you learn what was the cause, what was the reason for them being killed? MR NGOBESE As I’ve indicated, it was evident to me that these people that were dead, were actually IFP because they were under Dingidawo Xulu and at that particular point in time I didn’t actually make any investigation whatsoever. ADV BOSMAN Mr Ngobese did your committee not discuss this incident? Surely it was a very important incident that had taken place? Three people were killed. Did your committee not discuss it? MR NGOBESE No, the committee didn’t discuss this because we, as committee members, it was obvious to us that we were actually facing the IFP people that we were in actually in opposition with, so we actually perceived it as the continuation of such a struggle. MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese, do you deny that the youth of your area, of Mahlabatini belong to UDF and it was their parents who were actually IFP members? MR NGOBESE Well I wouldn’t deny that because when we started joining there in the organisation there would be people who are members and those who are supporters, so I wouldn’t differentiate because when we had meetings, we would have people who are members who would have people who are supporters. So it’s such a thing. I wouldn’t actually differentiate or deny. MS MTANGA I wish to put it to you that, it's going to the evidence of Zamukwakhe Khuzwayo, that he himself, and the two sons of Mr Xulu that were killed, were actually UDF supporters, they attended your meetings and you must have known about that, because you were present at the very meeting where they were killed. What do you say to that? MR NGOBESE I wouldn’t say that. I know nothing of that sort. All what I know is that those people who were killed were under IFP, that were actually guarded after they are dead. I wouldn’t deny what Zamukwakhe is saying, but what I gathered myself is that the people who were killed were IFP and with us, if an IFP member was killed we would rejoice because we regarded these as our opponents, we wanted to live in peace and to be protected because there was this struggle or this fight between IFP and ANC. ADV SANDI Can you just clarify something here? The two sons of Mr Mahlatini, did you see them immediately before they were killed? MR NGOBESE Can the speaker repeat the question? ADV SANDI I understand your evidence to be that when you came to the meeting, people were already dispersing and it has been put to you that the two sons had also attended this meeting, did you see them at that meeting where people were dispersing, going to the same where the two were subsequently killed? MR NGOBESE No, I didn’t as I’ve indicated that the meeting was over because I wasn’t there in the meeting. I only saw the UDF people. MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese, regarding the killing of the wife of Mr Xulu and his children and grandchildren. What were you hoping to achieve as a UDF member? MR NGOBESE As I’ve indicated in the family as we were actually as a caucus, there was an opinion or a suggestion that came with Mfanange that children and wives must actually be considered in this regard, and then in the general meeting however, the majority agreed that everybody there was to be killed at the Mahlatini’s place and then if we leave those members of the family, what would be the reason. So because we actually want peace, we should actually destroy or kill everything because that was the agreement, because we wanted peace and we didn’t want anyone to disturb us because these political organisations actually wanted to control the area. CHAIRPERSON We understand all that. I want to ask you personally, you personally as a man, were you in favour of killing children? MR NGOBESE Well, according to me, it wasn’t my wish that indeed the kids should touched and the children as well, as a human being, as a Ngobese person. As I’ve indicated that Mfanange came with that opinion and then I gathered from the group, then I was overpowered and that, because we should be safe, we cannot leave these people, they should be killed. That’s the situation or the circumstances that actually forced us. It was the majority, it wasn’t my intention or my aim, rather. CHAIRPERSON Did you speak at the meeting to say children should be spared? MR NGOBESE No, I didn’t however, the question was by Mfanange asking that if there were children and wives, what is it that we could do. CHAIRPERSON No I’m talking about you, I’m not talking about the views of Mfanange, I’m talking about you as a man. Because amongst those who were killed was Zandile Xulu, a 1 year old girl, Kolane Xulu, a 13 year old girl, Shitenbiso Khuzwayo, a 13 year old boy, Thokosane Khuzwayo, a 7 year old boy, Thokulunga Khuzwayo, a 7 year old girl, Ngobele Khuzwayo, a 5 year old girl, Sepo Khuzwayo, a 3 year old boy. These are the names and the ages of the children and you as an adult, responsible human being knew that that was what was going to happen, and you allowed yourself to be a party to it. You didn’t speak against it. Aren’t you ashamed of yourself? MR NGOBESE It was difficult at that point in time for you to forward certain ideas. As I’ve indicated, I was in a committee. Yes, certain opinions did come out, I would surely speak on my behalf. I didn’t put forward my opinion at that particular point in time, however, what happened is that the majority was adamant. CHAIRPERSON I am talking about you, not the majority being adamant, I’m talking about you, that you didn’t speak at the meeting to say that children shouldn’t be killed, that’s what I’m talking about. I’m looking at the court papers and in all these crimes of murder, among them was only 1 adult male, the others were females and they were children. So you’re going to bring about peace in that area by killing little children and killing women? MR NGOBESE Well I didn’t put it forward, there’s nothing I can, I can’t comment on that because the whole programme was led by Mfanange. Yes, the killing or the death of children and women is not a good thing because I also have a child so that’s also a touching, however, because of the situation in the area and the way that things have occurred, and the way we have actually used this umuti and the conscience, we didn’t have it, because this umuti that we had would actually finish the guilty conscience. It happened at that particular point in time and when the things were happening in the fight quickly, it wasn’t my intention that this should occur. ADV BOSMAN Mr Ngobese, what made that whole community, that particular evening, so angry that they could take such a cruel decision? What caused them to take this decision, if people spoke out like Mr Mfanange? ¼(indistinct) MR NGOBESE It was the situation, it was the way Dingidawo was actually harassing people who were ANC supporters, that’s the thing that actually gave people the idea to kill those people in the area, so that the people’s needs would actually be erased accordingly so that ANC can rule or lead in the area. CHAIRPERSON What is difficult to accept is that in that house people are mourning the death of two sons and when they are mourning the death of two sons, that is the day when you decide to go and kill all the others. Your mother was going to attend that session of mourning. And you decide on that very day, whilst they are mourning the loss of two children, two adults, two sons, that you should go and wipe out the others, that you should be a party to that on that very day. MR NGOBESE It was the situation or the circumstances that led me to do this. The situation or the circumstances were forcing me that everything that was happening in the area, I was actually to do or to act accordingly. That was the situation that was between the two opposition parties, that is ANC and IFP. I’m not actually denying that that was hurting, what actually happened to the Xulu family, even myself as a person who was actually supporting my organisation, I should actually do something to actually promote my organisation so that eventually it controls or rules. ADV SANDI But Mr Ngobese, the other problem about this incident is that yourself and Mfanange and the other gentleman you have mentioned who were in the crisis committee, you were holding a position of responsibility as leaders, is it not the duty of a leader to lead his people, to do the right thing and not to be swayed by emotions of the crowd? You were the vice-chairperson. MR NGOBESE Yes, it is so, I won’t deny that. Firstly what I can say is that when we started actually being in charge, the situation in the area, no one would actually tolerate such a thing because there were killings moreover between IFP and ANC, anyone between the two wanted to control. At times we as committee members and members would actually commit crimes because it was that each organisation wanted to be in charge, or rather to control. ADV SANDI Is it not also true that even when there is a war, you still have dos and don’ts of war, there are things people may do in the course of the war, there are also things which they may not do even if there is a war. One of those things is killing children and women. MR NGOBESE As I have indicated, yes, what happened at the Mahlatini, it was hurting, it was because of the situation or the circumstances rather that were forcing us because it was the opposition between these two opposition parties, so everyone or anyone rather in this area would do such a thing. That is how I actually ended up in such a situation myself, as a human being. CHAIRPERSON (¼ indistinct) was a man called Mr Xulu and that you were gunning for Mr Xulu and in the course of the fight Mr Xulu is killed, he is eliminated, but where women and children are killed and Xulu escapes, surely this group of 200 people that went to that house could have easily taken all the women and children and put them one side and go for Mr Xulu. MR NGOBESE I wouldn’t deny that that was possible. It's just that what we experienced as people who were facing the IFP, you would actually find that when they were attacking the IFP, wouldn’t be tolerant, they would actually kill children and wives so we actually had that knowledge and also at Boipatong as well, even children were killed in such areas. CHAIRPERSON No we are talking about your area just now and not of what happened in Boipatong. Do you understand? We are talking about you as a human being and what happened in your area. You didn’t kill people because others killed somewhere else. Anyway, are you finished? MS MTANGA No I’m not yet Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I’m sorry about that, we though that you had finished. I think we’ll adjourn at this stage, it is a quarter past one, and we’ll resume at 2 o’clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION BONGANI GILBERT NGOBESE (s.u.o. CHAIRPERSON You are still under your oath, remember. MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese, you have testified that the people who attended the meeting were about 250 to 350 people. Where did these people come from? MR NGOBESE The community, who were ANC supporters. INTERPRETER The speaker’s mike is not on MS MTANGA Sorry. According to the Khuzwayo family there were several vehicles seen during the time you were having a meeting, and it’s the same vehicles that proceeded to Mr Xulu’s house. Where did these vehicles come from? MR NGOBESE I don’t remember any cars but what happened is that there was a meeting and in that meeting that’s where the decision was taken that Mr Xulu’s family was going to be attacked. CHAIRPERSON Yes we heard that. Just answer the question whether, as far as you are concerned, you didn’t see any cars at that meeting. MR NGOBESE No I didn’t see them. CHAIRPERSON And that night when all of you advanced on Mr Xulu’s house, there were no cars that went with you? MR NGOBESE No, there were no cars. MS MTANGA According to Mr Khuzwayo, amongst the people who had attended your general meeting that evening, there were people who were not from Mahlatini, they came from other areas and were being conveyed in these vehicles, hence there was such a big number of people who had attended that meeting. What do you say to this? MR NGOBESE I don’t know anything about that, the only thing that I know is that there were no people who were coming from other areas, the people who were in the meeting were the Mahlabatini people. MS MTANGA Did you at any time, Mr Ngobese, or did people from other areas at any time come and join you in your activities as the UDF in the area, or was it always just the people from Mahlabatini who participated in this activity. MR NGOBESE Yes, sometimes boys from Sindisweni used to come and join us. MS MTANGA Would these people form the majority or would the people from your area, that is Mahlabatini, be the majority compared to these people from Sindisweni? MR NGOBESE People from Mahlabatini will form the majority and people from Sindisweni, they will just come to other meetings and after the meeting, they will leave to their respective places. INTERPRETER The speaker’s mike is not on. MS MTANGA Do you therefore dispute the view of the Khuzwayo family that most of the people who took part in the UDF activities were not actually from Mahlabatini, they were from the surrounding areas? CHAIRPERSON Bearing in mind that all this happened in the early hours of the evening or at night, how are we going to establish which people were from outside and which were not, if there were any from outside? MS MTANGA Chairperson, according to Mr Khuzwayo, it was common knowledge in the community that the UDF people were very few in the area and for them to have this kind of participation that they had on that day, they relied on people who came from outside. CHAIRPERSON Put it that way, that the information you have is that the UDF was not a very big, did not have large numbers in Mahlabatini and that the majority always came from outside. Put it on that basis. MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese, I put it to you that according to the Khuzwayo family, the people who formed UDF in Mahlabatini were largely people from outside and the people from Mahlabatini, whom you were part of, were very few in these UDF activities that took place at Mahlabatini. What do you say to that? MR NGOBESE I will deny this. I think statistics can show that UDF were the majority in Mahlabatini. ADV BOSMAN Ms Mtanga, you’ve been referring to the Khuzwayo family. Just for the record, is that correct? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, it’s the son-in-law. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes carry on. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I will end my questions here and I would like to advise the Committee that I will be calling Mr Zamukwakhe Khuzwayo to testify on some of the evidence given. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL Just on three issues, Mr Chairperson. Mr Ngobese, in your capacity as vice-chairman of the Crisis Committee, did you have any reason to disbelieve people when they came to you with allegations that they were suffering at the hands of the IFP in your community? MR NGOBESE I believed them and I trusted whatever they were saying. MS GABRIEL You’ve told the Committee that at the meeting on the 9th, this was before the actual killings, at the meeting on the 9th you told the Committee that you arrived when the meeting was over. Did you ask members of your committee or members of the community what was discussed at that meeting on the 9th? MR NGOBESE I didn’t ask, but one thing I gathered from one guy was that we were going to attack Inkatha. MS GABRIEL Where were you going to attack Inkatha? MR NGOBESE I would like you to repeat this question for me. MS GABRIEL You said you gathered that, at the meeting, or after the meeting, that there was a decision that members of the IFP were going to be attacked? CHAIRPERSON He said that he gathered from one person that they were going to attack Inkatha. MS GABRIEL Was that the same attack later that evening against the two sons? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS GABRIEL And you also told the Committee that you weren’t a part of that attack because you arrived late? On your arrival at the scene of that attack in which Dingidawo’s sons were killed, did you ask people what had happened? MR NGOBESE No, I didn’t ask but what I heard was that two guys were killed and they were from Mahlatini’s family. MS GABRIEL Why did you arrive on the scene late, is there any reason why you were told that IFP members were going to be attacked. How does it occur that you arrived there after the sons were attacked? MR NGOBESE Would you please repeat that question for me? MS GABRIEL Earlier in the day there was a meeting. You heard from one person that IFP people were going to be attacked. You had this information. You arrived at a scene preparing for a fight, that is the evidence you led earlier on to the Committee today, but you discovered on your arrival that Dingidawo’s two sons had been killed. Is there any reason why you arrived late? Can you offer the Committee any reason for why you weren’t there during the attack? MR NGOBESE As I’ve already explained that I owned a tuck shop at home, I was busy in my shop and also I was helping Bhekimugene. When I was supposed to go and take part in the fight it was too busy and I couldn’t leave at that time, but later on I asked my sister to take care of the tuck shop and I went and joined the group and when I arrived there the sons were already killed. MS GABRIEL In your experience as, or in your capacity as vice-chairman of the Crisis Committee, did the UDF ever kill it’s supporters in your community? MR NGOBESE No, it never happened. MS GABRIEL Would it have any reason to kill its supporters in your community, to kill it’s own supporters? CHAIRPERSON That answer is implicit in the first one, that there was never any killing, so that’s the end of the matter isn’t it. So what’s the point in looking for reasons? MS GABRIEL I dropped that question quite rapidly, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, do you have any idea why the witness that the Committee will call, do you have any idea why Zamukwakhe Khuzwayo wants to tell this Committee that you are lying about the death of Dingidawo’s sons? Do you have any reason to offer the Committee as to why he is saying this, or as to why he will say this? MR NGOBESE No, I don’t have any reason but I’m just speculating. Probably it’s because of political reasons or different view politically. MS GABRIEL So you are saying that he might hold different political views to yours? CHAIRPERSON Or he might have a political reason for it. MR NGOBESE It may be so, but this is just my speculation. I’m just saying so because he was also involved in the killing of Zethu Makoba. That’s why I’m thinking that he will come here and say a different story from what I’m saying. ADV BOSMAN May I just inquire from you, did I understand you correctly that Zethu was a relation of the Mahlatini family? MR NGOBESE No she wasn’t. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. MS GABRIEL Just by way of explanation, Zethu Makoba, you earlier on told the Committee, was a marshal for the UDF. Am I correct in that? MR NGOBESE Yes, she was our marshal. Usually she would guard police in the area and inform us. The reason we used her was because it was difficult at that time to use a male, but it was easier to use a female, therefore she was our marshal. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GABRIEL ADV SANDI Mr Ngobese, in the course of this conflict between the IFP and UDF, were there any instances, were there any attacks during which the IFP had attacked women and children? MR NGOBESE Are you referring to the area, the Cottonland area? ADV SANDI Yes. Did the IFP group kill women and children from your side? MR NGOBESE Usually females were killed, but I don’t remember children being killed, but I’m not saying it never happened, but it’s just that I don’t remember children being killed, but females were killed. ADV SANDI Thank you. ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are you calling any other witnesses? MS GABRIEL We are not calling any other witnesses Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to call Zamukwakhe Khuzwayo. CHAIRPERSON Spell his name for me please. MS MTANGA Zamukwakhe. ZAMUKWAKHE KHUZWAYO (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Would you tell the Committee your personal background as to how you are related to Mr Elias Khuzwayo and Mr Dingidawo Xulu. MR KHUZWAYO Yes. Dingidawo Xulu is my grandfather. Elias Khuzwayo is my father. MS MTANGA Can you give the Committee any explanation or evidence surrounding the background to the killing of the two sons of Mr Xulu, your grandfather? CHAIRPERSON Was he there at the time? Was he there? Get that from him. MS MTANGA Mr Khuzwayo, were you present when the two sons of Mr Xulu were killed? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, I was present. CHAIRPERSON Can you give me their names please? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. Ngura Mahlatini, Bongani Mahlatini. CHAIRPERSON How old were they? MR KHUZWAYO I wouldn’t be sure, they were older than me. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MS MTANGA Can you tell the Committee the events leading to the death of these two gentlemen? What had happened before and what did you witness prior to their killing, up to the point where they were killed? MR KHUZWAYO We were in the hall at Umgababa CHAIRPERSON Do you know when? MR KHUZWAYO It was in January 1990 and it was on a Tuesday. I remember very well, it was on Tuesday. CHAIRPERSON Yes do carry on. What happened on that Tuesday? MR KHUZWAYO When we were in the hall people came from Mahuti, they were in three kombis and they were UDF members. MS MTANGA And then what happened Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO And we were told to go to the nearest bush. MS MTANGA What were you doing at the hall in Umgababa? MR KHUZWAYO The comrades came to look as to how we were staying or living in that area. It was the first time for me to see many comrades and also they came to see the Committee members. MS MTANGA What was your political affiliation at that time? MR KHUZWAYO At that time it was UDF in that area. MS MTANGA Were you also a UDF supporter or member? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, I can say so, I was a supporter of UDF. ADV SANDI Sorry, can you explain what you mean when you say that at that time it was UDF in the area? MR KHUZWAYO People had been told that they can now leave Inkatha and be UDF if they wanted to. CHAIRPERSON Told by whom? MR KHUZWAYO Told by the people who initiated UDF. Kolane Mhlambo was the first one, Mfanange Mahlatini and Kesa Gumede, these were the people at the forefront of UDF. ADV SANDI Do you mean to say that at that stage the area was a UDF stronghold? Is that what you’re saying? MR KHUZWAYO This is a small area. What I can say is that at that time the majority of the youth were UDF and old people, they never used to attend these meetings, the UDF meetings. They never used to attend those meetings. MS MTANGA Mr Khuzwayo you have said that you were told you could now join UDF. Before people joined UDF, what was their particular affiliation of your area before you joined UDF? MR KHUZWAYO When we grew up people were IFP. MS MTANGA When did you first hear about the UDF, or when did you know that UDF started operating in your area? MR KHUZWAYO It was in 1989. MS MTANGA Alright, you can go on about the meeting at the hall. What happened when these people arrived at the hall? Before we get there, what was the purpose of you being at the hall? What was the reason for your group to be at the hall prior to these people arriving? MR KHUZWAYO The reason I was in that hall, we usually held meetings on Mondays and Fridays. Usually on Fridays the meetings which were usually held were in the evenings, so as to accommodate people who were coming from work. MS MTANGA Were these UDF meetings that you are talking about? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. CHAIRPERSON But now this meeting you are talking about took place on a Tuesday and not on a Friday. MR KHUZWAYO Yes. CHAIRPERSON What were you at the meeting for? MR KHUZWAYO We used to attend the meetings in the area. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MS MTANGA Who called this meeting that you attended on that Tuesday? MR KHUZWAYO From the discipline committee, it was Mfanange Mahlatini. CHAIRPERSON Was this a UDF meeting, or some other meeting? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, it was a UDF meeting. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MS MTANGA You said three Kombis arrived carrying UDF members from Mahuti. What happened when these people arrived? MR KHUZWAYO What they said, in fact the person who was talking there, it was someone from Mahuti and they appreciated the fact that UDF had many members there or supporters in that area, even though it was just formed. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I think we should get on to the essentials. MS MTANGA Were Mr Ngura Mahlatini and Mr Bongani Mahlatini amongst the people who attended that UDF meeting on that Tuesday? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, they were present. MS MTANGA Can you carry on and explain to the Committee how you got to the point where the two Mahlatini’s were attacked. CHAIRPERSON No rather let’s talk about a little earlier. What was the decision taken at the meeting? Was there any decision taken at the meeting? MR KHUZWAYO There was no decision taken except for the decision that we were supposed to all move from the hall and go to the nearest forest so that the police won’t disturb us. CHAIRPERSON What were you going to go and do in the forest? MR KHUZWAYO They said we were supposed to go there to camp and not be disturbed by police. MS MTANGA And then, did you go to the said forest? MR KHUZWAYO Before we left we were told that as we were leaving the hall females and young boys will be told to go back home and only the adults will go to the forest. CHAIRPERSON Did you go to the forest? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, I went. CHAIRPERSON Ngura and Bongani, did they go with you? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. MS MTANGA What happened when you arrived at the forest? MR KHUZWAYO As we arrived at the forest one guy from Mahuti started telling us that he knew that since UDF was new in the area, therefore he knows that there are enemies in the area, or people who were against the UDF. INTERPRETER The speaker’s mike is not on. MS MTANGA Carry on and tell the Committee. And then what happened after this person had said this? MR KHUZWAYO He explained to us that the reason they came by these three kombis is that they were going to leave their 10 members and he also said we must also select 10 people from our area and they were going to use one kombi. CHAIRPERSON To do what? MR KHUZWAYO He said they were supposed to go to Ndwedwe area because there was a certain gentleman who was going to help them, but he didn’t say as to what kind of help they were going to get from the gentleman. MS MTANGA Were these 10 people selected, Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, they were. MS MTANGA And then what happened afterwards? MR KHUZWAYO The person who was speaking on behalf of the Mahuti supporters chose their 10 people and he said to us we must also choose our 10 people and combine them and then let them go to Ndwedwe. MS MTANGA And then what happened after that? ADV SANDI Did you choose your 10 people as he was telling you to do? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, we were chosen because I was one of the 10 people. ADV SANDI Who else was chosen? MR KHUZWAYO Ngura Mahlatini, Bongani Mahlatini, Aubrey Motetwa, Mbegeni Makoba, Sbu Khuzwayo, Joel Gumede, these are the only names that I remember, but we were ten. I just remember seven of them. I remember these names because I was used to them. MS MTANGA Who was selecting these ten, Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO We were simply chosen and if your name was called you were going to go and sit at the centre. CHAIRPERSON What did they do after they were chosen? MR KHUZWAYO After we were chosen and we waited to hear as to how we were going to go to Ndwedwe or what we were supposed to do and then we heard them calling Ngura Mahlatini, because at this stage the people were in groups. MS MTANGA And then what happened? MR KHUZWAYO The group which called him started attacking him. I only heard the scream and that’s when I realised that he was being attacked. MS MTANGA When you say the group that called him started attacking him. How did you divide yourselves into groups, how did this happen? MR KHUZWAYO As I’ve explained, we were sitting in a circle and if your name was called as someone who was chosen, you were going to sit right in the middle of the circle, and we were there and there were other people in groups. MS MTANGA The group that called Ngura, where was it sitting? You were all sitting in a circle and the group of ten sitting in the middle. Where was the group that called Ngura sitting? The ones that called Ngura, where were they sitting? MR KHUZWAYO Maybe I need to explain this over again. As we were sitting in a circle, it was a big circle. Some people were a distance, more especially if your name wasn’t called or if you were not chosen to be in the group, so those were far and then the group which was chosen was right in the middle of the circle. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. Did you see the attack on Ngura? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. I saw that. CHAIRPERSON How was he attacked? MR KHUZWAYO They grabbed him and they slayed him, but he was also fighting back or struggling with them. CHAIRPERSON I didn’t hear the word. You said they ‘slayed’ him? MR KHUZWAYO They cut him. CHAIRPERSON Did they stab him or did they cut his throat? INTERPRETER They cut his throat. MS MTANGA Carry on. Then what happened? CHAIRPERSON Did they say why they were doing it? MR KHUZWAYO At that time no one was talking. CHAIRPERSON What happened after they cut his throat? MR KHUZWAYO They grabbed Aubrey, he was also chosen. CHAIRPERSON Was he also attacked? MR KHUZWAYO Yes he was attacked. Yes he was killed. At that time others had grabbed me and my hands were behind my back and I realised that they were chopping Mbhekeni, using a panga. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell Mbhekeni? INTERPRETER Mbhekeni. MS MTANGA And then what happened Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO The people who had grabbed me were not the people from the community of Mahlabatini. They were the people who came by Kombis. CHAIRPERSON Were you told why you were being grabbed? MR KHUZWAYO No, I wasn’t told. The only thing I heard is that they inquired from the people who were from Mahlabatini, as to what they were supposed to do with me. CHAIRPERSON What happened after that? MR KHUZWAYO Some said they didn’t know, but one person said I must be killed, his name is Joel Gumede. MS MTANGA And then what happened Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO One guy, his name is Mbuso Mahlatini, explained to them. He said that I wasn’t involved in this whole thing which was happening there. They had already grabbed Bongani Mahlatini and we left those two down there and they had Bongani. MS MTANGA When you say in your evidence Mbuso stood up and said that you were not involved in what was happening, do you know what they were referring to? What was happening? MR KHUZWAYO No, I didn’t know. CHAIRPERSON Did they do anything to Bongani? MR KHUZWAYO You mean the one they have grabbed? CHAIRPERSON Yes, after they grabbed Bongani. MR KHUZWAYO They took him towards a tar road and that’s where they killed him. CHAIRPERSON How? MR KHUZWAYO They took him near a bush there and I think they were kicking him and beating him, because he was crying out loud. MS MTANGA And then what happened Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO After that, the people who came by three kombis, they boarded the three kombis and they left the place. MS MTANGA Was the applicant present at any time at the hall and at the scene, where this crime was carried out? CHAIRPERSON What’s the question? MS MTANGA Was the applicant present at the hall at any time and also at the scene where the crime was carried out? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. MS MTANGA Did you see him? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, he was present and I also spoke to him and I was told that as a witness if there could be any one of them arrested, then they were going to come after me. MS MTANGA Who said that to you? MR KHUZWAYO Kolane Mlambo said so. MS MTANGA The applicant says that you are making a mistake, he wasn’t at the hall and he also didn’t come to the scene of the attack until after you had been attacked, the Mahlatinis had been attacked. MR KHUZWAYO I deny that. I know that even people who were there, who were present, they know that he was there and they’ve witnessed him being there. I am not the only one who can testify so. Other people who were there can also testify that he was actually present. CHAIRPERSON When you left the hall to go to the forest, did you see him at the forest? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. CHAIRPERSON And when the attack on Mr Xulu’s two sons took place, did you see him? MR KHUZWAYO I will be lying if I can say I actually witnessed someone killing him, but he was present, but I cannot say who actually killed him. CHAIRPERSON We are talking about the applicant being present. You saw the applicant when Bongani and his brother were killed? MR KHUZWAYO I don’t understand the question clearly. CHAIRPERSON I’m sorry. Take your time. You have told us that you saw the applicant at the hall. MR KHUZWAYO Yes. CHAIRPERSON You told us that when they left the hall and went to the forest, you saw the applicant there? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now my question was, when Bongani and his brother were attacked, was the applicant present? MR KHUZWAYO Yes he was present. ADV SANDI What was he doing? Or what did he say, if he said anything. MR KHUZWAYO No, he didn’t say anything but he was present. ADV SANDI You mean to say that he was just standing around? CHAIRPERSON He may have been doing something, on the other hand you might not have seen him doing things. MR KHUZWAYO Yes, what I know for certain is that he was present, but I would be lying to say to this Committee that I’ve heard him saying something or doing something, but he was present. ADV SANDI You say he was at the hall. What was he doing there, did he say anything, did he play any role in the events at the hall? MR KHUZWAYO No, he didn’t say anything in the hall. The people who came by kombis were the people who were speaking in the hall. MS MTANGA And then what happened after you had left the scene of the crime Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO Would you please repeat that question? MS MTANGA After you left the scene where the Mahlatinis were attacked, what happened? MR KHUZWAYO I went home to sleep. MS MTANGA Is that all you want to tell this Committee about this incident? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, that’s all. CHAIRPERSON Did you not tell your grandfather that these two men were killed that night? MR KHUZWAYO No, I didn’t tell him on that night. CHAIRPERSON You didn’t tell your father? MR KHUZWAYO I only told my father on the second day and I was scared because I was told that if someone was going to be arrested, I was going to be killed, but then after a day I told my father and they had already discovered their bodies and then I told my father and I ran away from that area. MS MTANGA That completes my questioning. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Was he not present on the night when the murders took place? MS MTANGA No Chairperson, he had fled the place as he stated now so when the second attack took place, he was away. CHAIRPERSON So his evidence really has nothing to do with the offences with which we are concerned here. It is really to challenge the credibility of the previous witness. MS MTANGA Well Chairperson I would say it discredits the applicant on the background he has created about the conflicts between them and Mr Xulu. CHAIRPERSON Well he hasn’t really, he really talked about what happened in respect of the killings of Xulu’s two sons and his story differs. The applicant says he wasn’t there, he arrived there after the scene, this witness places him at the scene. MS MTANGA Chairperson, the family is of the view that the reason for Mr Xulu’s house to be attacked was that he was going to avenge the killing of his sons and his sons were not political enemies to the applicants or to their organisation, they were members of that organisation so there couldn’t have been political grounds or a political motive for attacking Xulu. CHAIRPERSON Well why were these two boys then killed, Xulu’s two boys killed by UDF supporters? MS MTANGA That is what the family does not understand and they feel that the applicant is not ¼(intervention) CHAIRPERSON See the applicant doesn’t seem to have played a part in the killing of those two boys. Here is a young chap who is a nephew of those two boys, a relative of theirs. He doesn’t throw much light on the matter except that those people who arrived in the kombi had apparently formed a view that certain of the young people who had attended that meeting were not UDF supporters and among them were these two that died and one of the other companions that was killed. MS MTANGA Chairperson, the evidence of the applicant does not say that and the evidence of this witness is that the applicant had always known that they were UDF members, so there was no grounds for them to have killed them. As such, when they went to attack the family they were in fear the Mr Xulu was going to revenge the killing of his sons, because they were killed because they were IFP, and according to the family that was not so, so they had no ground at that point in time to fear Me Xulu’s attack, because the incident that instigated his attack was never politically motivated. ADV SANDI Yes, but is Mr Ngobese, the applicant, is he not disputing that the two sons were members of the UDF? MS MTANGA He said he couldn’t really deny. ADV SANDI This appears to me to be a safe issue. CHAIRPERSON Any cross-examination of this witness CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL Yes, Mr Chairperson. It’s around four basic areas. Mr Khuzwayo, you lived and you grew up in Cottonfields, Mahlabatini? CHAIRPERSON Cottonland. MS GABRIEL Cottonland, pardon me. Isn’t it correct that there were disputes between the ANC and the IFP or the UDF, that there were political disputes in that area. Do you agree with that? MR KHUZWAYO I disagree with that. MS GABRIEL So what you are saying is that the community that you grew up in was a very peaceful community, that there were no political disputes, is that what you are saying? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. The first time I experienced violence was in 1990. MS GABRIEL What was this violence about? Wasn’t this violence really about belonging to different political groups? MR KHUZWAYO As I’ve already explained, I only experienced violence in 1990 when this attack was done, I saw it in January 1990, this was the first time or the first experience. The only time I’ve experienced it is when I saw it. MS GABRIEL Then why then, if you community was such a peaceful community up until 1990, why then did you join the UDF in 1989? MR KHUZWAYO I didn’t know anything about politics, but then we took it as a fashion, we were soccer teams and we would go to these meetings, not that I had more knowledge or politics or political knowledge, I didn’t have, but then everyone used to go for meetings and when UDF came I also joined the group. MS GABRIEL Mr Khuzwayo I have only two last questions? Were you present at the meeting, the applicant tell us is was on the 11th or the 12th of January, when a decision was made to kill Dingidawo, were you present at that meeting? MR KHUZWAYO No I wasn’t present. MS GABRIEL So then you really know nothing about the reasons why the community made this decision and what could have prompted them to make this decision? MR KHUZWAYO Maybe I need to clarify. I was still young but I remember and I know this very well. When I am talking about political issues, I am referring to the fact that at the time I was still young and I didn’t even know any policies of any political organisation, but since I was young and I was a youth at the time, most youth belonged to UDF and at the time when the meeting was held where the decision to attack Dinidawo’s family, I wasn’t in the area, I had run away. MS GABRIEL Right, so then you know nothing about the decision. You had fled. ADV SANDI As I understand him, he is trying to tell you Ms Gabriel, that he agrees with the applicant who said that at that stage he was still very young and did not really know much about these things. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but he didn’t know about the attack on the house of the deceased. Simply because by that time this terrible incident which he saw where these two boys were killed, that experience he had caused him to flee because he thought he might get involved if he discloses who were responsible for the killing. MS GABRIEL Thank you Mr Khuzwayo. NO FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MS MTANGA None Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What schooling have you had? MR KHUZWAYO Standard 5 CHAIRPERSON What are you doing now? MR KHUZWAYO I’m not doing anything. CHAIRPERSON Have you gone back to the area where you used to live? MR KHUZWAYO No. CHAIRPERSON Where are you now living? MR KHUZWAYO I’m staying with my aunt at Ndwedwe CHAIRPERSON That night at this gathering when these people from the Kombi said that they want to select ten from each group because they want to go to Ndwedwe. Did they say why you were supposed to go to Ndwedwe? MR KHUZWAYO No they didn’t explain. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are calling no other evidence? MS MTANGA No I am not calling any other person Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Gabriel do you wish to address us? MS GABRIEL Very briefly Mr Chairperson. MS GABRIEL IN ARGUMENT It is our submission that the applicant has made a full disclosure. The crimes that he has been sentenced for were gruesome and chilling and he did not withhold any of that evidence and admitted quite openly to the full extent of what happened that evening. It is also clear that the applicant was a member and acted in his official capacity of what may have been the banned ANC or the UDF. It is clear that he was an ANC supporter, that he was a UDF supporter, both of which were political organisations, publicly recognised at the least. It is also clear that his actions arose as a result of a meeting of supporters and the leadership of these publicly recognised political organisations, that the decision was taken in response to political tension in that area and that he acted in furtherance of this decision. The evidence, as you rightly pointed out Mr Chair, of Mr Khuzwayo really does not refute the disclosure made by the applicant and in a sense does very little to indicate that the applicant acted out of a selfish motive or a personal motive, or a non political motive and indeed there has been no suggestion that that was the basis for his actions. In the circumstances and given the fact that the applicant has made a full disclosure we submit that the requirements of Section 20 of the Act are met and we would urge this committee to grant the applicant the amnesty he requests. ADV BOSMAN Ms Gabriel, what would your submission be to a suggestion that Mr Khuzwayo’s evidence may be relevant to the issue of proportionality of the actions of the applicant? MS GABRIEL If Mr Khuzwayo is to be believed, his version is disputed by the applicant, if he is to be believed, on Mr Khuzwayo’s version there does not seem to be or he cannot dispute that the sons were killed on the basis of the membership of being IFP. Mr Khuzwayo also cannot place any of those events in perspective so it is difficult to balance what the applicant says, was a long stream of oppression by the leadership of the IFP in that area, and so even if its taken in isolation that the killing of Mr Xulu was in fact quite shocking, and of his family, and it appears to be quite disproportionate to the events that went on two days before, I would submit that the committee should take into account the fact that there was a steady stream of complaints and very severe allegations about the political turmoil, political oppression in that community. CHAIRPERSON There is some evidence of ongoing conflict between two groups, two rival political groups. Two sons of a man are killed and on the night when there is a vigil in connection with their deaths, people have gathered to mourn the death of the two sons, that is the night he’s chosen to go and wipe out women and children in that house. What was expected to be achieved and was what done, what was done not totally disproportionate to any objective which they hoped to achieve? MS GABRIEL The objective, on the applicant’s submission, was to rid the area of the ongoing turmoil and the oppression. CHAIRPERSON That could have been done by getting hold of Mr Xulu himself. MS GABRIEL That much is true. CHAIRPERSON But to kill children and women because they couldn’t get hold of him. MS GABRIEL With respect Mr Chair, on the evidence submitted by the applicant, their marshals were sent to check on whether the deceased was there with his group and I took that to mean his group of IFP supporters. The marshal came back with the information that they were present. It is not disputed that the applicant knew that there was a vigil and that the rest of his group knew that there was a vigil and that there would be bound to be many people there. My submission is really that the decision was made to rid the community of the deceased and all that surrounded him. ADV BOSMAN But Ms Gabriel, sorry to interrupt you, if I recall correctly, the evidence was that the marshal had reported that his wife or wives and children were there, not just simply an undefined group. CHAIRPERSON There was a wake as a result of the death of the two sons. They were mourning, that is what was taking place there. I think there was no hint that there were a lot of armed people who were supporters of Mr Xulu himself who were at the house providing protection or security or anything of that kind. There were just women and children there and they were mourning the death of these two people. MS GABRIEL On the evidence admitted by the applicant, it was clear that they expected a counter attack by Mr Xulu. CHAIRPERSON That’s one of those rumours that might have spread in that area. MS GABRIEL These were the rumours, in my submission, that fuelled the ultimate decision. CHAIRPERSON And so they send somebody to go there and that person comes back and says that there are women and children there in the house. MS GABRIEL Mr Chairman, my recollection from my notes is that the person came back and said that Mr Xulu was there along with his group. I am not disputing that the applicant and his group did not know that there was a vigil there that night, it’s clear that they did know CHAIRPERSON Not only that. As a matter of fact there was a discussion by the Committee. We will attack Xulu’s house. What are we going to do with his wife and his children? Some say we must kill them, some say no. So they said no, let’s not take a decision, let’s submit that decision to the meeting, so long before they sent out anybody the question about what is going to happen to the women and children was discussed and decided on. I want to know whether that does not indicate a sordid course of conduct which is totally disproportionate to what was hoped to be achieved, the political objective that was to be achieved. MS GABRIEL My submissions are the following Mr Chairperson. This was a community racked by violence, this was a community racked by political tension. It was a process of ongoing tension, it was clear that it was supporters of the IFP and the leadership was identified. It is true that the Crisis Committee could not reach a decision about the killing of the women and the children. On that basis they refused to make a decision and took it back to the general body of the IDF supporters at which point they discussed the problems experienced by the community all the time. CHAIRPERSON That was an artificial discussion INTERPRETER The speaker’s mike. CHAIRPERSON talk about the other problems, that Xulu is forcing members to become IFP and so on and so on, when that night the discussion centred around whether they are going to attack Xulu’s house or not. Previous grievances had been aired at meetings because meetings were held regularly. These were not new grievances. MS GABRIEL On the applicants evidence CHAIRPERSON Yes, he can say what he likes, but I’m just trying to say that what triggered off the whole thing that night was not a repetition of the previous grievances. What triggered it off was because somebody came and said that because we have killed his sons, we fear now that there is going to be a counter attack and before there is a counter attack, let’s go and wipe them out. That’s what happened. MS GABRIEL My submissions Mr Chair are that this is a decision that was not lightly taken. It was presented to the community, it was on balance decided that the only way that they could do this was to destroy him and the people that surrounded him and it had to happen before the counter attack. ADV BOSMAN It was appreciated that the people who you refer to as having surrounded him, were women and children. MS GABRIEL That much was appreciated, the decision was not made lightly. The only submission that I can make is that the community must have suffered enormously to have been driven to a point where, after general deliberation, they endorsed the fact that they wanted stability in the region and that the only way to do it was to kill everybody present. CHAIRPERSON Let’s just talk about the enormous suffering that the community went through. He is a vice-chairman, he is an experienced man and when he is asked to give, how many people were killed, how many ANC people were killed, can you give us the names of people that were killed by Inkatha, and he had a pathetic answer. Were any women killed, any children killed? No, no children were killed by Inkatha. But no that there is ongoing violence and this violence is not something that is premeditated. It erupts like boils erupt on a human’s body from time to time and there is no rational explanation as to how people react whenever these things boil over. We, from time to time are caught in having to make a decision on a matter of grave important and from time to time we have to ask this question, taking into account the fact that there is ongoing violence, sometimes did the parties not resort to a method or resort to the degree of violence which far exceeded what the circumstances required? When 1 year old children, 3 year old, 5 year old girls are killed, one can’t help but ask this question that wasn’t what they did totally disproportionate to the political objective? MS GABRIEL The political objective, on the applicant’s evidence, was to rid the community of ongoing problems. The severity of these problems were not fully addressed by the applicant. It is something however that I submit that this Committee can take notice of, given the Final Report of the TRC. These issues were never clear, the attacks and the counter attacks. The fact that the applicant cannot remember off-hand the names of ANC supporters that were killed in that area, I submit, does not really reveal either way, the severity of the suffering that went on in that community. All I can submit on behalf of the applicant is that this was a decision that was not lightly reached. It was made at a public meeting, by public supporters, it may well be that it was disproportionate but that is for the Committee to decide, but it was made by people who had suffered at the hands of that IFP leader, Mr Xulu was the leader of the IFP. It is clear that it came after years and years of turmoil in that community. The very formation of the Crisis Committee itself would give some indication of the extent to which UDF supporters were made to pay, as it were, in that community. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is there anything else you wish to say. MS GABRIEL Those are my submissions. CHAIRPERSON You did say earlier on that you were not in possession of the information which concerned the granting of indemnity to the persons who were accused numbers 1, 2 and 3 in the trial with the applicant. MS GABRIEL Neither those instructing me, nor I, have any information on that. The only information we have is from the applicant. In our consultations this morning I did ask the applicant, and I specifically asked "Was that amnesty or indemnity granted by the State?" and his response was in the affirmative. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you wish to reply? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. MS MTANGA ADDRESSES It is my submission on behalf of the victims that the applicant’s amnesty application has failed, or fails to comply with the requirement of proportionality in that the applicant, in his testimony, has testified that the particular objectives sought by his organisation was to maintain peace in the area. He has also testified that the person who disturbed, or whom they believed or heard in a rumour, disturbed this peace, was Mr Dingidawo Xulu. Instead of dealing with Mr Dingidawo Xulu, the applicant and his organisation killed Mr Dingidawo’s family and they have not given any evidence to show how the grounds for killing the family and how the family of Mr Dingidawo, had disturbed the peace that they were seeking to achieve. And it is therefore the submission of the family that the applicant had no political objective in killing the families, surely the children of Mr Dingidawo. CHAIRPERSON Is that all you wish to say? MS MTANGA That is all I wish to say Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The Committee has already considered some aspects of this matter but we are concerned about the fact that we don’t have enough information on the question of the grant of indemnity to his three compatriots and I would like to place on record that you will make inquiries diligently and place as much information before us, in writing, relating to the grant of indemnity to these three persons. MS MTANGA Yes I will do so Chairperson, but if I may also put it on record that our office had made endeavours with Mr Konke, I can’t pronounce the surname, and he had indicated that he would try and obtain these copies for us. CHAIRPERSON He’s going to try and obtain them? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson that was the agreement he made with our office. CHAIRPERSON Mr Konke. That’s very generous of him. MR KONKE I tired to obtain them but I couldn’t. CHAIRPERSON You couldn’t. It seems that we must have some record. MS MTANGA We’ll take it further Chairperson. I’ll make a follow up to that. CHAIRPERSON Yes please. Thank you very much. Any question you wish to put? ADV BOSMAN No questions, thanks Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you have anything to say? The Committee will not take a decision in this matter until it has had the benefit of the information we seek on this question on the grant of indemnity to the others. Once we have that information, we will then consider the rest of the evidence and take a decision in the matter and in due course it will make known its decision to the applicant and to those who are here as members of the deceased’s family and relatives of the victims. Before I adjourn to tomorrow morning, what can you tell me about the programme for tomorrow? MS MTANGA Tomorrow we will be hearing the amnesty application of Mr Thusi and it was indicated that we should start at 9 o’clock, this application is likely to be very long. CHAIRPERSON Very well this Committee will now adjourn till 9 o’clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS