amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-19 PIETERMARITZBURG 3 BONGANI GILBERT NGOBESE AM3480/96 DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY OF DINGIDAWO XULU : ATTEMPTED MURDER OF DINGIDAWO XULU: MUNTU ELIAS KHUZWAYO https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53400&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99051721_pmb_990519pm.htm CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL CHAIRPERSON On reading of the papers it is quite clear that the applicant was just one of a number of people who had been involved in the offences that gave rise or that give rise to this application. In our papers several names are mentioned by the applicant. Ms Mtanga can you tell us whether you have the names of all the others who were convicted with the applicant in this matter? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson I do. Page 15 of the record, bundle. According to the applicant, that is Bongane Gilbert Ngobese ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MTANGA Accused no 1 to 4 were the people convicted. CHAIRPERSON Just let me take that down. He himself was accused number 4 in the trial. MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson, that is so. And then accused number 5 to number 9 were acquitted by the Verulam Magistrate Court, so they never appeared before the High Court. Out of the four people convicted, the first three people, Accused 1 to 3, applied for indemnity and they were granted indemnity. The applicant was unable to apply for indemnity at that time. CHAIRPERSON Is there any information as to when the indemnity was granted to these three. MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Pardon? MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Ms Gabriel, do you have any information in that regard? MS GABRIEL Mr Chairperson, on the information on the papers, the co-accused were released on indemnity on or about the 16th June 1994. CHAIRPERSON Is there any other information on the papers relating to this grant of indemnity? MS GABRIEL CHAIRPERSON Ms Gabriel, you are calling the applicant? MS GABRIEL Yes Mr Chairperson. But before I do, the applicant has prepared a written statement. Unfortunately due to an administrative oversight, this was not included with the bundle of papers prepared. May I have leave to hand it up? CHAIRPERSON Just now. BONGANI GILBERT NGOBESE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON You have consulted with the dependants of the victims? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson I have done so. CHAIRPERSON You will be representing some of them? MS MTANGA Yes, that is so. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Ms Gabriel. MS GABRIEL Mr Chairperson, as previously noted the applicant has prepared a statement. I apologise that this was not included in the bundle of papers. It is substantially the evidence that will be led today and I hand it up. CHAIRPERSON Is this in the form of an affidavit? MS GABRIEL It is in the form of an affidavit, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Fortunately we do have this statement, this affidavit. MS GABRIEL Thank you for drawing that to my attention. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. This statement, or the affidavit is in fact dated, is there a date on it? 7th of May 1999. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may proceed. EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Ngobese, you are currently in prison serving a term of imprisonment for crimes that were committed on or about 11th to the 12th of January 1990. MR NGOBESE Yes. MS GABRIEL Could you tell the Committee exactly what these crimes were and how it is that you came to be convicted for these crimes? CHAIRPERSON Can we, just for the sake of formality, get a few personal details of the individual before you get down to this aspect of the murder? MS GABRIEL I apologise Mr Chairman. Mr Ngobese, what are your full names please, for the record. MR NGOBESE Bongane Gilbert Ngobese. MS GABRIEL What is your age? MR NGOBESE 40 years old. MS GABRIEL And is it correct Mr Ngobese that you are currently at the Westville Prison, serving a term of imprisonment? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Could you please describe the offences for which you are serving your time of imprisonment? MR NGOBESE Yes I can explain. It is a case involving a murder of the family members of Dingidawo Xulu. MS GABRIEL Surrounding those events that you were convicted of, I apologise Mr Chairman, there appears to be a problem. Mr Ngobese, is it correct that you were found guilty of 13 counts of murder, 2 counts of attempted murder and 1 count of arson? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Will you please tell the Committee how these events arose? MR NGOBESE Yes. In 1989 I was elected by the community of Cottonland to be one of the members of the Committee and the name of the Committee was Cottonland Crisis Committee. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR NGOBESE I was elected as a vice-chairman of that committee. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NGOBESE Others who were elected were Kolane Mlambo, the other one was Mfanange Makatini, the other one was Bongani Emmanuel Mgathe and the other one was Bernard Nyembe. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR NGOBESE We were elected because there was violence in that area from 1980, there was violence between ANC and IFP. MS GABRIEL May I interrupt you? What do you mean by violence between ANC and IFP? Could you possibly describe to the Committee examples of this? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON When you say the ruling party in that area, were you talking about control of that area? MR NGOBESE Yes, I mean that they wanted to be the controlling party in that area, and also ANC wanted to be the controlling party. CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE Yes, I can agree with that statement, but at that time IFP would force the community who were ANC to become IFP. ANC was there because UDF was in existence. So UDF members were considered to be ANC members. CHAIRPERSON In other words when you are saying ANC you really meant UDF at that time. MR NGOBESE Yes, we were UDF at that time. CHAIRPERSON So I think that, to be correct, if you are talking about that time, instead of using the word ANC you must talk about the UDF. Alright? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese you were telling the Committee that the Cottonfields Crisis Committee was formed. Could you explain why this Committee was formed and who these people were? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Please continue. MR NGOBESE At that time IFP wanted everyone who was an ANC member to leave the area and another thing which was common with the IFP, they used to force people to join IFP. MS GABRIEL The people that you refer to, were these people ANC members or did they sympathise with the ANC, you earlier told the Chairperson that it's more correctly described as UDF members. MR NGOBESE At that time they were UDF followers or supporters. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN Can you tell us in what manner they were forced to leave the area? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN Thank you. MS GABRIEL Please continue. So you were elected vice-chairperson of the Cottonfields Crisis Committee. What did you hope to achieve on this Committee? Why was the Committee formed? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL So who elected you onto this committee? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN May I just interpose here please Ms Gabriel. MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Please tell the Committee what happened after you were elected onto the Cottonfields Crisis Committee. MR NGOBESE We held meetings, we had frequently held meetings and my job was to take complaints from the community and I would take these complaints to the Crisis Committee. What I would do as well, I used to help the Red Cross if there were floods, to help the community, for instance if the community needed shelter, and also I would help, because there was a certain bus company called Riteousins and I would go to that company and help the community by transportation and I will also go to Jobelela Ndlovu and we will try and resolve the community problems together. CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, you have told this Committee now about your personal actions in the community and how you helped the community. Please describe the actions of the Committee leading up to the events for which you were convicted. MR NGOBESE What the Committee will do was to help the community with regard to the problems the community will be facing. MS GABRIEL MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON How did this Committee solve the problems? Tell us precisely some of the problems and how they were solved. You have told us in broad political terms of what Inkatha was doing in the area, compelling people to join Inkatha or leave the area. I want to know how the problems that you are talking about were handled or solved. What problems? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON What you mean is that you resisted what was being done by refusing to pay? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, maybe I should just try to bring you closer to the events for which you were found guilty, this was the killing for which you were convicted. Can you describe how those events happened? CHAIRPERSON What led up to that, or when? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL So these were members of the Crisis Committee? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS GABRIEL And what was decided at that meeting? MR NGOBESE The reason we held the meeting, there were boys from Mahlatini family who died. They died because of a fight which occurred between the supporters of ANC and IFP. MS GABRIEL Who are these boys, Mahlatini? MR NGOBESE Dingidawo Xulu, it's also Mahlatini. CHAIRPERSON How can he also be Mahlatini. Is his name Mahlatini or Xulu? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Yes, you were telling the Committee that two boys of the Mahlatini family were killed. Please continue. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I think I want some particulars about that. When were these Mahlatini boys killed? MR NGOBESE Even though I cannot remember the exact date, they died in those days. CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE I think it was after a week, I am not sure, but the meeting was held after the Mahlatini boys were killed. CHAIRPERSON Where were they killed? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Were you present when they were killed? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Who were they killed by? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON By which group were they killed? MR NGOBESE ANC supporters. CHAIRPERSON How were they killed? MR NGOBESE I heard that they were stabbed and some of them were slayed. CHAIRPERSON What is that last word? They were stabbed and what? Interpreter please tell me what was the last word, they were stabbed and ? The interpreter used a word after the word stabbed, please tell me what was the word? INTERPRETER Slain, or cut on the throat. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Do carry on. ADV BOSMAN May I just ask you, why did you go there? Why did you go to where this happened? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN But what did you want to do there? What was your aim of going there? Just to look? MR NGOBESE I went there to fight because we were fighting with the IFP. ADV BOSMAN Did you fight when you got there? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN Thank you Ms Gabriel. CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE No, I went there because I heard that there was going to be a fight. Inkatha people were going to attack the UDF or ANC people. CHAIRPERSON Or is it also possible that the ANC people were going to attack the Inkatha people? MR NGOBESE Yes, it was possible, as I have already mentioned that there was violence in the area. CHAIRPERSON You talk about violence in the area, the impression you have created is that the violence was always started by one side, Inkatha would be the ones. What I want to know, to get a clearer picture. I want to know clearly from you whether these fights involved attacks and counter attacks by both sides. MR NGOBESE Yes, one organisation will attack and the other one will attack as well. Sometimes the UDF will be first ones to attack and sometimes the IFP. CHAIRPERSON When you arrived at the scene, these two boys had already been killed. What did you do? MR NGOBESE When I arrived there the ANC supporters were there and the fight was already over. Then I came back with another group of ANC supporters. ADV SANDI But how big was this group? Can you estimate the number of people who were involved in this ANC/UDF group? MR NGOBESE It was quite a number. I will estimate that it was approximately 150 to 200 people. ADV BOSMAN But as a committee member did you not inquire who had actually done the slaying of these two people? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON In whose area did the fight take place, in whose territory? IFP territory or UDF territory? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Yes. What happened after that? A week later you were having a meeting at your house. This is a week approximately after this fight. What happened at the meeting? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL How did this information come to your attention? MR NGOBESE There was a certain girl called Zethu Makoba, she was our marshal and there was another boy from Mahlatini family and they told us that Mahlatini was going to attack us. MS GABRIEL Yes, continue. So this information was discussed and what did the committee decide to do? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Continue please Mr Ngobese. MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV BOSMAN There is nothing coming through to me, INTERPRETER MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, maybe you can just repeat the last two things you said. CHAIRPERSON You have told us that there was an idea that if you attack he house his wife and children may be in the house. Carry on from there. MR NGOBESE After that Kolane came with an idea that we should put that aside and we were going to put this in a general meeting which we were going to hold at night on the same night. CHAIRPERSON What is meant by that when you say that you are going to put it aside? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL What is this issue to be dealt with in the main meeting, in the general meeting? MR NGOBESE ADV SANDI Maybe we can just get this clear. Mr Ngobese, are you saying that there was a problem that when you launch your attack at the Mahlatini family, his wife and children may be injured and killed in the process? MR NGOBESE Yes. Mfanange came with this idea that if we attack his house, we might find that his wives and his children will be there. Therefore, we as a committee, we decided that we will put this aside in that meeting but we were going to take it to the general meeting. We put this on our agenda as an outstanding issue that we were going to discuss about it later to the community in the general meeting. CHAIRPERSON What was the next thing that happened? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON That same night, that is the night of the committee meeting? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS GABRIEL Was this meeting held? Did this meeting take place? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR NGOBESE On top, there was a certain area in the sugar cane field and the name of the place is called Umsinsi. Mfanange was the Chairman of that meeting. MS GABRIEL Who attended the meeting? MR NGOBESE Community members who were ANC supporters together with the committee members. I was present myself, Gilbert and Bongani. MS GABRIEL How many people were at the meeting? MR NGOBESE It is difficult to estimate. I think it was close to 250 to 300. MS GABRIEL Please continue. What happened at the meeting? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, you said that the chairman said that you needed a decision at that meeting. What was this decision? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Was that discussed? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did people speak? MR NGOBESE Yes they did. CHAIRPERSON And what was decided? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Even though his wives and his children may be the victims, may be hurt? MR NGOBESE After the decision was taken Mfanange raised the issue that we had a problem as a committee that, when we arrived there, we might find that his wives and children are there, now we wanted the community to tell us how we should solve this problem, or run away from this problem. ADV BOSMAN Was it to attack or to kill? Can you just make that clear? MR NGOBESE To attack and kill. MS GABRIEL After the vote, what happened next? MR NGOBESE After that Mfanange closed the meeting. We left there, we went to Umgababa Hall. MS GABRIEL Yes you went to the Umgababa hall. MR NGOBESE When we arrived there Mfanange told us to stop. There was umuti - Mfanange Mahlatini brought that umuti. CHAIRPERSON When you say he brought that umuti, what are you talking about? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Carry on. ADV BOSMAN May I just ask one question before you carry on? Was Mfanange Mahlatini, was he related to the Mahlatinis who you were going to attack? MR NGOBESE Only the surnames. I will say they were related because they had similar surnames. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON So now Mfanange brings this umuti which is supposed to help the people and make them brave. What happened then? MR NGOBESE He also told us that most of the corpses which were found who were ANC supporter corpses, they had insufficient parts or their parts were removed, therefore they were using their private parts to make umuti. MS GABRIEL What do you mean, the dead bodies of ANC supporters had missing parts and that their private parts were used to make umuti? Do you mean that organs were missing from the bodies of ANC supporters? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Who would make that umuti? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Do you understand him to say that when ANC corpses were found and some of their parts were removed, the IFP people took those parts and made umuti from them, is that what you understood or am I wrong? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON So now, he told you this and what happened then? MR NGOBESE He gave Bernard umuti. ADV SANDI This umuti, Mr Ngobese, how did it look like, what was it actually? MR NGOBESE Green leaves and you will take these green leaves, you will put it into a bucket and then pour water. We stood on the line. CHAIRPERSON Yes carry on. ADV SANDI Who was standing on the line? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON You have told us that Mfanange gave Bernard the umuti. Now who sprinkled the umuti on the people who were standing in the line, was it Bernard or was it who? MR NGOBESE It was Bernard Nyembe. CHAIRPERSON So he sprinkled umuti on all those who were in the line? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS GABRIEL Thank you. What happened next? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, how many were you? MR NGOBESE We were many, we were about 200 to 300 and all these people were ANC supporters. CHAIRPERSON All of them had umuti put on them? MR NGOBESE Yes, they all had umuti, they were sprinkled with the umuti. MS GABRIEL You were telling us that you arrived at a certain shop, what happened then? MR NGOBESE Bongani Emanuel Mgathe called me and Bernard Nyembe. The petrol was bought by Bernard from a certain filling station called Badada. The petrol was in a 5 litre. Bongani Emanuel Mgathe took this petrol into to a certain bedroom next to his shop. I took this petrol and I also took a nail and I made a hole through the lid, a small hole. CHAIRPERSON Now, Bongani took the petrol to his bedroom which was next to his shop. And then, where were you at the time? MR NGOBESE I was with Bongani. CHAIRPERSON You went into the bedroom? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And when you were in the bedroom? MR NGOBESE When we were in the bedroom, Bongani Emanuel took the petrol and we brought it in front of his shop. CHAIRPERSON You went into his bedroom with the petrol, then you bring it back into the front of his shop? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION BONGANI GILBERT NGOBESE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Do carry on. EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL (cont) MR NGOBESE As I have already said, we were there at the tuck shop after taking the petrol. Mfanange was the person who has already sent Zethu Makoba to check if everybody at Mahlatini is there. CHAIRPERSON Just tell me again. Mfanange sent who? MR NGOBESE Zethu Makoba. CHAIRPERSON He sent Zethu Makoba to do what? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL And then what happened? MR NGOBESE And then we went there. CHAIRPERSON How many of you? MR NGOBESE A big group, approximately 200 to 300. MS GABRIEL What happened there? MR NGOBESE The others would go to the main house where everybody was and then he asked the others to, those people would then actually then follow up with stones and butchers knives and all the other weapons. At that particular point in time myself, Mfanange, Bernard Nyembe, we are the ones who actually entered the house first, however, I was the one who was leading them. CHAIRPERSON Please give me the names again of those that entered the house. INTERPRETER Bongani Gilbert Ngobese, that is the applicant, Mfanange Makatini and Bernard Nyembe. CHAIRPERSON Yes you say you entered the house. What happened then? MR NGOBESE Just before we entered I was carrying a gun, parabellum, also carrying petrol. CHAIRPERSON Yes carry on. MR NGOBESE I entered and we moved to the right hand side. CHAIRPERSON Yes do carry on. MR NGOBESE And when I entered I started shooting. There were people who were seated there. The person that I noticed, that I realised was the son, that is Jabulani Mahlatini. And then Mfanange and Bernard Nyembe were on the left hand side and there were people who were asleep there. There was a female, a woman who put on a blanket, who covered herself with a blanket. I think that was the wife to Dingidawo Xulu, and then they shot, directing their shot to those people. CHAIRPERSON Who shot? MR NGOBESE Mfanange and Bernard. MS GABRIEL What did you do? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Did I hear you correctly that you sprinkled petrol on the wall and on the blankets? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON How many people were there in that room? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE They actually followed and had assisted those who were throwing stones because the group that was standing there were actually guarding those people against people who would be coming out and would actually hit them or beat them. CHAIRPERSON The people from outside the house, had they already started throwing stones? MR NGOBESE Yes, they started as soon as they realised that the house was on fire, then they started throwing stones. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Who were they referring to, this grandfather? MR NGOBESE Dingidawo Xulu, who is the chairman of IFP in that area. CHAIRPERSON Where were these children whose voices you heard? MR NGOBESE In the bedrooms because the main house had bedrooms. CHAIRPERSON How many children did you see? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON What did you do when you heard their voices? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN Why could people not leave the house? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN You say people could not leave the house, why could people not leave the house when they realised it was burning? Let me put it to you this, did you prevent them from leaving the house? MR NGOBESE Yes, the group that was outside was actually told that no one should leave the house. As we were there, our aim was that, because we have agreed that we will kill anything or everything, so no one was actually supposed to leave the house even when the fire was at its peak, we would actually hear the noise when the house was on fire. ADV BOSMAN Were there people in the house who were not family of Mahlatini? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN May I just ask you this, you say there was a night vigil, did you know about the vigil then before the attack? MR NGOBESE Yes. ADV BOSMAN MR NGOBESE Yes. ADV BOSMAN And you mentioned that there were many women in the one room? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN Did you think that the other women were all wives of Dingidawo, or did you realise that they may be other women? MR NGOBESE Well in that regard, we were actually thinking that it might be possible that it could be the daughters to Dingidawo because he had a lot of them. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. ADV SANDI Did you say it could have been the ndodagazi, sister-in-law? INTERPRETER Ndodagazi is a daughter. ADV SANDI Sorry, in my language it means something else. INTERPRETER Ndodagazi is a daughter in Zulu. MS GABRIEL So at this point the houses were on fire, people were prevented from leaving, and you told the committee that you ran away. Why did you run away? MR NGOBESE We realised that what had happened here is a crime. CHAIRPERSON You ran away because you had completed the crime. You had gone there to commit a crime. MR NGOBESE Yes, we were done. CHAIRPERSON How many shots did you fire when you entered this room? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Who did you aim at? MR NGOBESE There was a group on the right hand side where there was a son by the name of Jabulani Mahlatini. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but besides the son, who else was with him in that group? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Do you know anything at all about your companions, how many people they shot? MR NGOBESE Well, no, because the way this thing happened it was just shooting, it was difficult at that particular point in time to count, because those people eventually stood up and actually tried to lean of the wall. However, they were actually shot. ADV BOSMAN Where did you obtain these guns? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Where did your companions get their guns from? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Where did they get those guns from? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, at the time of this killing, what happened to Dingidawo? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON What has happened to him? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, you gave evidence at your trial, the trial for the murder and attempted murder of people that night. Did you tell the Court then what you have told the Committee today? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL But the Judge in that trial did find that this was a fight that had occurred between ANC and IFP supporters. Were those issues discussed? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON You say this was discussed. Are you talking about the fact that there was evidence on that in the trial? MS GABRIEL I apologise Mr Chairman, what I meant to ask was, was evidence about that led at the trial. There is, from the Judgment it would appear that the Judge did make a finding that this involved members of the ANC and of the IFP. I cannot refer you immediately to a passage, but with your leave, I will bring it to your attention. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. In the meanwhile you can carry on with your questioning. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, after you ran away, how long, what did you do after that, the night of the killing? What did you do immediately after that? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON When were you arrested, can you remember? MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL How do you feel now about your actions that evening? MR NGOBESE Very emotional or sensitive, most particularly to the family, the bereaved, the families who lost their beloved ones, to me it's hurtful or hurting because I know very well that yes people died, moreover children died and on top of that, I came here because I want to put it to the family that because it was the situation or the circumstances that forced me at that particular point in time and I would actually put it upon these people to forgive me because at that particular point in time the situation or the circumstances were difficult and everyone was actually forced in one way or another, to fight for his or her side. MS GABRIEL You mentioned that you met Dingidawo in prison. Did you speak to him? MR NGOBESE Yes, we did talk. MS GABRIEL Did you talk about what had happened that night? INTERPRETER I beg yours, did you ask a question? MS GABRIEL Did you talk about what you and members of that group did to his family and to his home? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON All this is now irrelevant because that man has died and there will be no way in which we can test this evidence. MS GABRIEL Mr Ngobese, is there anything else you wish to say to the Committee today in support of your application for amnesty? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN MS GABRIEL ADV BOSMAN Yes, that I understand, but he has given evidence that he was convicted and the record shows that he was convicted or 13 counts of murder, 2 counts of attempted murder and arson. MS GABRIEL Yes. May I draw your attention to 9(a)(ii) and (iii) and (iv). It would appear that the way that the form was filled out was, Mr Ngobese separated the counts to relate to the different events, different crimes that he was charged with. ADV BOSMAN Yes, that may be so. Are you saying that you will argue then that he is entitled to amnesty in regard to all these matters on which he was convicted? I just wanted you to clarify that. MS GABRIEL Yes, that is indeed what I will be arguing. I apologise, it would appear that this form is incorrectly filled out. CHAIRPERSON I just want to clear that up. When you say you are going to apply for amnesty on behalf of your client, is it in respect of the incident that occurred that night when the family of Xulu was attacked? MS GABRIEL Yes. CHAIRPERSON Not some other subsequent offence? MS GABRIEL Mr Chairperson, the other subsequent offence has already been heard by an Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon. MS GABRIEL And amnesty has been granted in respect of that one and it would appear to be, Madam Commissioner, that both crimes were separated and called counts, counts 1 and counts 2 and that would appear from 9 (a) (ii) which describes count 1 as the events of 12th January 1990 and count 2 as 26th December 1991. ADV BOSMAN I fully appreciate that, I just wanted to have clarity on the fact that he is applying for amnesty in respect of 13 murders, 2 attempted murders and 1 arson. MS GABRIEL Yes, that is it. Mr Chairperson I have had opportunity to leaf quickly once more through the judgment in this case which was the judgment of Mr Justice Mescin. I must apologise, the judgment does not make any reference to members of the IFP, it does however make reference to members of the ANC and that appears from page 16 of the record, in the region of line 20. I must apologise, I did not intend to mislead this Committee, there is no reference in this judgment to internecine violence between the ANC and the IFP. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS GABRIEL Mr Chairperson that is the evidence on behalf of the applicant. ADV BOSMAN MS GABRIEL Yes, I apologise, Madam Commissioner, he did not make any finding in this regard. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GABRIEL CHAIRPERSON Any cross-examination of the applicant? MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson I have some few questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese are you able to tell this Committee, when did the UDF start operating at Mahlatini for the first time? MR NGOBESE As I indicated, it was in 1980. MS MTANGA: How many people from Mahlatini were actually UDF members? How many people were actually UDF members compared to the IFP members? MR NGOBESE It would be difficult to say how many were there. A person who would actually have the knowledge, it would be Bongani Emanuel Makgathe, because he is the person who was actually letting people to join, he had all the paperwork and all the relevant documentation in that regard. MS MTANGA You have given evidence that it was the IFP that was harassing people to join them and your people became victims to this harassment. Are you able to give incidents where people were actually killed by the IFP which, as a result, instigated you to carry out the attack on Mr Xulu? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA May I continue Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes certainly. MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Do it step by step. First of all you want to know the names of those who were killed. And if you are going to ask for all the names of those who were driven away, you might have a long list, unless you have a special reason to want to know the names. MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Do you know the names of all the people, the 15 odd people that were killed, ANC people? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA How do you know these people were killed by Mr Xulu? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA So Mr Ngobese, you acted upon a rumour, you didn't have actual facts that these people were killed by Mr Xulu. Am I right? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE At times when I was passing by the house I would actually see that people are being sjamboked. CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE I would actually discover that some of them were the members who were under our UDF group. CHAIRPERSON That means you heard rumours. Is that right? MR NGOBESE Yes, at times we would hear that, but the punishment itself would actually occur when I was actually passing there and I would actually see him doing it. CHAIRPERSON The occasional whipping or sjamboking of people turns into insignificance when you compare with some of the more serious things that were done. MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON This had been carrying for some time? MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON In how many attacks on IFP people were you involved over the years? MR NGOBESE For the second time or the one referring to the date on the 9th and the one that occurred on the 12th. MS MTANGA MR NGOBESE Although I cannot explain in detail, as a person who was in politics, though Mahlatini boys were actually IFP just like their father, so it was evident that they were killed because they were belonging to this political organisation. MS MTANGA Did you personally know these two boys, that is the two sons of Mr Xulu? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS MTANGA Did you personally know the family of Mr Khuzwayo, that is the son-in-law of Mr Xulu? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS MTANGA Do you know Zamukwakhe Khuzwayo, the grandson of Mr Xulu? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS MTANGA My instructions are from Zamukwakhe, are that on the day the two sons were killed, the UDF had had a meeting in a certain hall where you were also present. Zamukwakhe was present and 4 other people, included in them were the 2 sons. Do you know about this meeting on the day the 2 sons were killed? Do you know about this meeting? MS MTANGA Did you arrive at the hall where the meeting was taking place or had just finished, or did you go to where these 2 sons were killed? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA According to Zamukwakhe you attended the meeting and the meeting was called for the youth, and he further says that the youth of the area belonged to the UDF and he was one of the people who belonged to the UDF even though his father was IFP. It was the same case with the 2 sons that were killed. They were killed because their fathers were IFP, but they actually belonged to your organisation, the UDF and that was mostly the case with all the youth in the area, do you deny this? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE I will actually answer this. To say that the Xulu sons were UDF, as a person who has resided in ADV BOSMAN What do you say about Zamukwakhe? Was he a UDF member? MR NGOBESE ADV SANDI How old is this Zamukwakhe today? MS MTANGA ADV BOSMAN Do you agree with that, that he was 16 years old? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN 16 years old. Would you say that that is too young to know about politics? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA MR NGOBESE Please repeat so that I can hear clearly. CHAIRPERSON Is it correct that in that area UDF people went around recruiting youngsters to join the UDF? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA According to Zamukwakhe Khuzwayo, on the day in question, that is when the two sons of Mr Xulu were killed, they had attended a meeting with these two sons, together with two other people who were also killed in this incident, that is in the incident where the two sons were killed, actually four people were killed there. Do you know about this? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA In your evidence Mr Ngobese, you said you heard about the fight between the IFP and the ANC where these two sons had been killed and you went to the scene where this had taken place. What time was this, when you went to the scene of the crime? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON In the afternoon? MS MTANGA At night, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON 1 a.m. Past midnight. MS MTANGA What do you say to this? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Switch it off. MS MTANGA My instructions from the family are that in your evidence you have lied when you said there was a fight between IFP and the ANC in that incident. What actually transpired was that the people from the meeting, which the 2 sons and Zamukwakhe had attended, walked away, they left the hall and went to the place where they decided to kill these people, and there was no fight, no other IFP there, they were attacked by their own people that they were with at the meeting. What do you say to that? CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA The facts from the family Chairperson are that CHAIRPERSON They say MS MTANGA That the incident that the applicant alleges there was a fight, and in his evidence he indicates that there was a group of IFP people fighting ANC people, as a result the 2 sons of Mr Xulu were killed. According to the family it is not so. The people who were at that scene were the very people who were at the meeting, there were no IFP people in that area. There were the people who came from the meeting with these two sons of Mr Xulu and they killed them there, which was the UDF people who killed, and there was no IFP people fighting them, because the people were actually at their homes sleeping, not aware of what was going on. CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA By UDF people after having attended the meeting of the UDF. CHAIRPERSON Yes, in other words that happened at a time when there was no fighting. They did not die in the course of a fight? MS MTANGA No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON They were just killed? MS MTANGA Yes, that is so. What do you say to this Mr Ngobese? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA Who were you going to fight, Mr Ngobese? MR NGOBESE I was going to fight with the IFP members. MS MTANGA According to Zamukwakhe, there were no IFP members. MR NGOBESE ADV SANDI Mr Ngobese, when you came to this place where the two sons of Mahlatini were killed, did you see any IFP people there? MR NGOBESE Please repeat. ADV SANDI When you went out to participate in the fight which you were told was between the IFP and the UDF people, did you see any IFP people when you came there? MR NGOBESE When I arrived I found UDF because people were already dispersing after the death of these Mahlatini boys. ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON CHAIRPERSON This information about the two sons being killed. I hear you put in your question that there were two others that were killed at that time. MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. But I think the fourth person survived, but his whereabouts are not known. CHAIRPERSON So there were five people altogether? MS MTANGA There were four people who were attacked by this UDF group, who had also attended this meeting that they came from and the fourth person survived. CHAIRPERSON Three were killed. MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese, in your evidence you were saying that you only heard that there was a fight. Subsequent to the death of these three people and injury of this fourth person, did you find out or did you learn what was the cause, what was the reason for them being killed? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN Mr Ngobese did your committee not discuss this incident? Surely it was a very important incident that had taken place? Three people were killed. Did your committee not discuss it? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese, do you deny that the youth of your area, of Mahlabatini belong to UDF and it was their parents who were actually IFP members? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA I wish to put it to you that, it's going to the evidence of Zamukwakhe Khuzwayo, that he himself, and the two sons of Mr Xulu that were killed, were actually UDF supporters, they attended your meetings and you must have known about that, because you were present at the very meeting where they were killed. What do you say to that? MR NGOBESE ADV SANDI Can you just clarify something here? The two sons of Mr Mahlatini, did you see them immediately before they were killed? MR NGOBESE Can the speaker repeat the question? ADV SANDI I understand your evidence to be that when you came to the meeting, people were already dispersing and it has been put to you that the two sons had also attended this meeting, did you see them at that meeting where people were dispersing, going to the same where the two were subsequently killed? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese, regarding the killing of the wife of Mr Xulu and his children and grandchildren. What were you hoping to achieve as a UDF member? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON We understand all that. I want to ask you personally, you personally as a man, were you in favour of killing children? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON Did you speak at the meeting to say children should be spared? MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON What is difficult to accept is that in that house people are mourning the death of two sons and when they are mourning the death of two sons, that is the day when you decide to go and kill all the others. Your mother was going to attend that session of mourning. And you decide on that very day, whilst they are mourning the loss of two children, two adults, two sons, that you should go and wipe out the others, that you should be a party to that on that very day. MR NGOBESE ADV SANDI But Mr Ngobese, the other problem about this incident is that yourself and Mfanange and the other gentleman you have mentioned who were in the crisis committee, you were holding a position of responsibility as leaders, is it not the duty of a leader to lead his people, to do the right thing and not to be swayed by emotions of the crowd? You were the vice-chairperson. MR NGOBESE ADV SANDI MR NGOBESE As I have indicated, yes, what happened at the Mahlatini, it was hurting, it was because of the situation or the circumstances rather that were forcing us because it was the opposition between these two opposition parties, so everyone or anyone rather in this area would do such a thing. That is how I actually ended up in such a situation myself, as a human being. CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION BONGANI GILBERT NGOBESE (s.u.o. CHAIRPERSON You are still under your oath, remember. MR NGOBESE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please proceed. MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese, you have testified that the people who attended the meeting were about 250 to 350 people. Where did these people come from? MR NGOBESE The community, who were ANC supporters. INTERPRETER MS MTANGA MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE CHAIRPERSON MR NGOBESE No, there were no cars. MS MTANGA According to Mr Khuzwayo, amongst the people who had attended your general meeting that evening, there were people who were not from Mahlatini, they came from other areas and were being conveyed in these vehicles, hence there was such a big number of people who had attended that meeting. What do you say to this? MR NGOBESE MS MTANGA Did you at any time, Mr Ngobese, or did people from other areas at any time come and join you in your activities as the UDF in the area, or was it always just the people from Mahlabatini who participated in this activity. MR NGOBESE Yes, sometimes boys from Sindisweni used to come and join us. MS MTANGA Would these people form the majority or would the people from your area, that is Mahlabatini, be the majority compared to these people from Sindisweni? MR NGOBESE People from Mahlabatini will form the majority and people from Sindisweni, they will just come to other meetings and after the meeting, they will leave to their respective places. INTERPRETER MS MTANGA Do you therefore dispute the view of the Khuzwayo family that most of the people who took part in the UDF activities were not actually from Mahlabatini, they were from the surrounding areas? CHAIRPERSON Bearing in mind that all this happened in the early hours of the evening or at night, how are we going to establish which people were from outside and which were not, if there were any from outside? MS MTANGA Chairperson, according to Mr Khuzwayo, it was common knowledge in the community that the UDF people were very few in the area and for them to have this kind of participation that they had on that day, they relied on people who came from outside. CHAIRPERSON Put it that way, that the information you have is that the UDF was not a very big, did not have large numbers in Mahlabatini and that the majority always came from outside. Put it on that basis. MS MTANGA Mr Ngobese, I put it to you that according to the Khuzwayo family, the people who formed UDF in Mahlabatini were largely people from outside and the people from Mahlabatini, whom you were part of, were very few in these UDF activities that took place at Mahlabatini. What do you say to that? MR NGOBESE I will deny this. I think statistics can show that UDF were the majority in Mahlabatini. ADV BOSMAN MS MTANGA Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes carry on. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I will end my questions here and I would like to advise the Committee that I will be calling Mr Zamukwakhe Khuzwayo to testify on some of the evidence given. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL Just on three issues, Mr Chairperson. Mr Ngobese, in your capacity as vice-chairman of the Crisis Committee, did you have any reason to disbelieve people when they came to you with allegations that they were suffering at the hands of the IFP in your community? MR NGOBESE I believed them and I trusted whatever they were saying. MS GABRIEL MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Where were you going to attack Inkatha? MR NGOBESE I would like you to repeat this question for me. MS GABRIEL You said you gathered that, at the meeting, or after the meeting, that there was a decision that members of the IFP were going to be attacked? CHAIRPERSON He said that he gathered from one person that they were going to attack Inkatha. MS GABRIEL Was that the same attack later that evening against the two sons? MR NGOBESE Yes. MS GABRIEL MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL Why did you arrive on the scene late, is there any reason why you were told that IFP members were going to be attacked. How does it occur that you arrived there after the sons were attacked? MR NGOBESE Would you please repeat that question for me? MS GABRIEL MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL MR NGOBESE No, it never happened. MS GABRIEL CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL I dropped that question quite rapidly, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS GABRIEL MR NGOBESE MS GABRIEL So you are saying that he might hold different political views to yours? CHAIRPERSON Or he might have a political reason for it. MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN May I just inquire from you, did I understand you correctly that Zethu was a relation of the Mahlatini family? MR NGOBESE ADV BOSMAN Thank you. MS GABRIEL Just by way of explanation, Zethu Makoba, you earlier on told the Committee, was a marshal for the UDF. Am I correct in that? MR NGOBESE Yes, she was our marshal. Usually she would guard police in the area and inform us. The reason we used her was because it was difficult at that time to use a male, but it was easier to use a female, therefore she was our marshal. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GABRIEL ADV SANDI Mr Ngobese, in the course of this conflict between the IFP and UDF, were there any instances, were there any attacks during which the IFP had attacked women and children? MR NGOBESE Are you referring to the area, the Cottonland area? ADV SANDI Yes. Did the IFP group kill women and children from your side? MR NGOBESE ADV SANDI Thank you. ADV BOSMAN I have no questions, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Are you calling any other witnesses? MS GABRIEL We are not calling any other witnesses Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga. MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to call Zamukwakhe Khuzwayo. CHAIRPERSON Spell his name for me please. MS MTANGA Zamukwakhe. ZAMUKWAKHE KHUZWAYO (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Would you tell the Committee your personal background as to how you are related to Mr Elias Khuzwayo and Mr Dingidawo Xulu. MR KHUZWAYO Yes. Dingidawo Xulu is my grandfather. Elias Khuzwayo is my father. MS MTANGA Can you give the Committee any explanation or evidence surrounding the background to the killing of the two sons of Mr Xulu, your grandfather? CHAIRPERSON Was he there at the time? Was he there? Get that from him. MS MTANGA Mr Khuzwayo, were you present when the two sons of Mr Xulu were killed? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, I was present. CHAIRPERSON Can you give me their names please? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. Ngura Mahlatini, Bongani Mahlatini. CHAIRPERSON How old were they? MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MS MTANGA Can you tell the Committee the events leading to the death of these two gentlemen? What had happened before and what did you witness prior to their killing, up to the point where they were killed? MR KHUZWAYO We were in the hall at Umgababa CHAIRPERSON Do you know when? MR KHUZWAYO It was in January 1990 and it was on a Tuesday. I remember very well, it was on Tuesday. CHAIRPERSON Yes do carry on. What happened on that Tuesday? MR KHUZWAYO When we were in the hall people came from Mahuti, they were in three kombis and they were UDF members. MS MTANGA And then what happened Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO And we were told to go to the nearest bush. MS MTANGA What were you doing at the hall in Umgababa? MR KHUZWAYO The comrades came to look as to how we were staying or living in that area. It was the first time for me to see many comrades and also they came to see the Committee members. MS MTANGA What was your political affiliation at that time? MR KHUZWAYO At that time it was UDF in that area. MS MTANGA Were you also a UDF supporter or member? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, I can say so, I was a supporter of UDF. ADV SANDI Sorry, can you explain what you mean when you say that at that time it was UDF in the area? MR KHUZWAYO People had been told that they can now leave Inkatha and be UDF if they wanted to. CHAIRPERSON Told by whom? MR KHUZWAYO Told by the people who initiated UDF. Kolane Mhlambo was the first one, Mfanange Mahlatini and Kesa Gumede, these were the people at the forefront of UDF. ADV SANDI MR KHUZWAYO This is a small area. What I can say is that at that time the majority of the youth were UDF and old people, they never used to attend these meetings, the UDF meetings. They never used to attend those meetings. MS MTANGA Mr Khuzwayo you have said that you were told you could now join UDF. Before people joined UDF, what was their particular affiliation of your area before you joined UDF? MR KHUZWAYO When we grew up people were IFP. MS MTANGA When did you first hear about the UDF, or when did you know that UDF started operating in your area? MR KHUZWAYO It was in 1989. MS MTANGA Alright, you can go on about the meeting at the hall. What happened when these people arrived at the hall? Before we get there, what was the purpose of you being at the hall? What was the reason for your group to be at the hall prior to these people arriving? MR KHUZWAYO The reason I was in that hall, we usually held meetings on Mondays and Fridays. Usually on Fridays the meetings which were usually held were in the evenings, so as to accommodate people who were coming from work. MS MTANGA Were these UDF meetings that you are talking about? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. CHAIRPERSON But now this meeting you are talking about took place on a Tuesday and not on a Friday. MR KHUZWAYO Yes. CHAIRPERSON What were you at the meeting for? MR KHUZWAYO We used to attend the meetings in the area. CHAIRPERSON Yes, carry on. MS MTANGA Who called this meeting that you attended on that Tuesday? MR KHUZWAYO From the discipline committee, it was Mfanange Mahlatini. CHAIRPERSON Was this a UDF meeting, or some other meeting? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, it was a UDF meeting. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MS MTANGA You said three Kombis arrived carrying UDF members from Mahuti. What happened when these people arrived? MR KHUZWAYO What they said, in fact the person who was talking there, it was someone from Mahuti and they appreciated the fact that UDF had many members there or supporters in that area, even though it was just formed. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I think we should get on to the essentials. MS MTANGA Were Mr Ngura Mahlatini and Mr Bongani Mahlatini amongst the people who attended that UDF meeting on that Tuesday? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, they were present. MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON What was the decision taken at the meeting? Was there any decision taken at the meeting? MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON What were you going to go and do in the forest? MR KHUZWAYO They said we were supposed to go there to camp and not be disturbed by police. MS MTANGA And then, did you go to the said forest? MR KHUZWAYO Before we left we were told that as we were leaving the hall females and young boys will be told to go back home and only the adults will go to the forest. CHAIRPERSON Did you go to the forest? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, I went. CHAIRPERSON Ngura and Bongani, did they go with you? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. MS MTANGA What happened when you arrived at the forest? MR KHUZWAYO As we arrived at the forest one guy from Mahuti started telling us that he knew that since UDF was new in the area, therefore he knows that there are enemies in the area, or people who were against the UDF. INTERPRETER MS MTANGA Carry on and tell the Committee. And then what happened after this person had said this? MR KHUZWAYO He explained to us that the reason they came by these three kombis is that they were going to leave their 10 members and he also said we must also select 10 people from our area and they were going to use one kombi. CHAIRPERSON To do what? MR KHUZWAYO MS MTANGA Were these 10 people selected, Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, they were. MS MTANGA And then what happened afterwards? MR KHUZWAYO The person who was speaking on behalf of the Mahuti supporters chose their 10 people and he said to us we must also choose our 10 people and combine them and then let them go to Ndwedwe. MS MTANGA And then what happened after that? ADV SANDI Did you choose your 10 people as he was telling you to do? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, we were chosen because I was one of the 10 people. ADV SANDI Who else was chosen? MR KHUZWAYO Ngura Mahlatini, Bongani Mahlatini, Aubrey Motetwa, Mbegeni Makoba, Sbu Khuzwayo, Joel Gumede, these are the only names that I remember, but we were ten. I just remember seven of them. I remember these names because I was used to them. MS MTANGA Who was selecting these ten, Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO We were simply chosen and if your name was called you were going to go and sit at the centre. CHAIRPERSON What did they do after they were chosen? MR KHUZWAYO After we were chosen and we waited to hear as to how we were going to go to Ndwedwe or what we were supposed to do and then we heard them calling Ngura Mahlatini, because at this stage the people were in groups. MS MTANGA And then what happened? MR KHUZWAYO MS MTANGA When you say the group that called him started attacking him. How did you divide yourselves into groups, how did this happen? MR KHUZWAYO MS MTANGA The group that called Ngura, where was it sitting? You were all sitting in a circle and the group of ten sitting in the middle. Where was the group that called Ngura sitting? The ones that called Ngura, where were they sitting? MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. Did you see the attack on Ngura? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. I saw that. CHAIRPERSON How was he attacked? MR KHUZWAYO They grabbed him and they slayed him, but he was also fighting back or struggling with them. CHAIRPERSON MR KHUZWAYO They cut him. CHAIRPERSON Did they stab him or did they cut his throat? INTERPRETER They cut his throat. MS MTANGA Carry on. Then what happened? CHAIRPERSON Did they say why they were doing it? MR KHUZWAYO At that time no one was talking. CHAIRPERSON What happened after they cut his throat? MR KHUZWAYO They grabbed Aubrey, he was also chosen. CHAIRPERSON Was he also attacked? MR KHUZWAYO Yes he was attacked. Yes he was killed. At that time others had grabbed me and my hands were behind my back and I realised that they were chopping Mbhekeni, using a panga. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell Mbhekeni? INTERPRETER Mbhekeni. MS MTANGA And then what happened Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO The people who had grabbed me were not the people from the community of Mahlabatini. They were the people who came by Kombis. CHAIRPERSON Were you told why you were being grabbed? MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON What happened after that? MR KHUZWAYO MS MTANGA And then what happened Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO They had already grabbed Bongani Mahlatini and we left those two down there and they had Bongani. MS MTANGA When you say in your evidence Mbuso stood up and said that you were not involved in what was happening, do you know what they were referring to? What was happening? MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON Did they do anything to Bongani? MR KHUZWAYO You mean the one they have grabbed? CHAIRPERSON Yes, after they grabbed Bongani. MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON How? MR KHUZWAYO They took him near a bush there and I think they were kicking him and beating him, because he was crying out loud. MS MTANGA And then what happened Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO After that, the people who came by three kombis, they boarded the three kombis and they left the place. MS MTANGA Was the applicant present at any time at the hall and at the scene, where this crime was carried out? CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA Was the applicant present at the hall at any time and also at the scene where the crime was carried out? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. MS MTANGA Did you see him? MR KHUZWAYO Yes, he was present and I also spoke to him and I was told that as a witness if there could be any one of them arrested, then they were going to come after me. MS MTANGA Who said that to you? MR KHUZWAYO Kolane Mlambo said so. MS MTANGA MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON When you left the hall to go to the forest, did you see him at the forest? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR KHUZWAYO I will be lying if I can say I actually witnessed someone killing him, but he was present, but I cannot say who actually killed him. CHAIRPERSON We are talking about the applicant being present. You saw the applicant when Bongani and his brother were killed? MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON MR KHUZWAYO Yes. CHAIRPERSON You told us that when they left the hall and went to the forest, you saw the applicant there? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now my question was, when Bongani and his brother were attacked, was the applicant present? MR KHUZWAYO Yes he was present. ADV SANDI What was he doing? Or what did he say, if he said anything. MR KHUZWAYO ADV SANDI You mean to say that he was just standing around? CHAIRPERSON He may have been doing something, on the other hand you might not have seen him doing things. MR KHUZWAYO ADV SANDI You say he was at the hall. What was he doing there, did he say anything, did he play any role in the events at the hall? MR KHUZWAYO MS MTANGA And then what happened after you had left the scene of the crime Mr Khuzwayo? MR KHUZWAYO Would you please repeat that question? MS MTANGA After you left the scene where the Mahlatinis were attacked, what happened? MR KHUZWAYO I went home to sleep. MS MTANGA Is that all you want to tell this Committee about this incident? MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON Did you not tell your grandfather that these two men were killed that night? MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON MR KHUZWAYO I only told my father on the second day and I was scared because I was told that if someone was going to be arrested, I was going to be killed, but then after a day I told my father and they had already discovered their bodies and then I told my father and I ran away from that area. MS MTANGA That completes my questioning. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Was he not present on the night when the murders took place? MS MTANGA No Chairperson, he had fled the place as he stated now so when the second attack took place, he was away. CHAIRPERSON So his evidence really has nothing to do with the offences with which we are concerned here. It is really to challenge the credibility of the previous witness. MS MTANGA Well Chairperson I would say it discredits the applicant on the background he has created about the conflicts between them and Mr Xulu. CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA Chairperson, the family is of the view that the CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA ADV SANDI Yes, but is Mr Ngobese, the applicant, is he not disputing that the two sons were members of the UDF? MS MTANGA ADV SANDI This appears to me to be a safe issue. CHAIRPERSON Any cross-examination of this witness CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL Mr Khuzwayo, you lived and you grew up in Cottonfields, Mahlabatini? CHAIRPERSON Cottonland. MS GABRIEL MR KHUZWAYO I disagree with that. MS GABRIEL So what you are saying is that the community that you grew up in was a very peaceful community, that there were no political disputes, is that what you are saying? MR KHUZWAYO Yes. The first time I experienced violence was in 1990. MS GABRIEL MR KHUZWAYO MS GABRIEL Then why then, if you community was such a peaceful community up until 1990, why then did you join the UDF in 1989? MR KHUZWAYO MS GABRIEL Mr Khuzwayo I have only two last questions? Were you present at the meeting, the applicant tell us is was on the 11th or the 12th of January, when a decision was made to kill Dingidawo, were you present at that meeting? MR KHUZWAYO MS GABRIEL So then you really know nothing about the reasons why the community made this decision and what could have prompted them to make this decision? MR KHUZWAYO MS GABRIEL Right, so then you know nothing about the decision. You had fled. ADV SANDI As I understand him, he is trying to tell you Ms Gabriel, that he agrees with the applicant who said that at that stage he was still very young and did not really know much about these things. CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL Thank you Mr Khuzwayo. NO FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? MS MTANGA None Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What schooling have you had? MR KHUZWAYO Standard 5 CHAIRPERSON What are you doing now? MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON Have you gone back to the area where you used to live? MR KHUZWAYO No. CHAIRPERSON Where are you now living? MR KHUZWAYO CHAIRPERSON That night at this gathering when these people from the Kombi said that they want to select ten from each group because they want to go to Ndwedwe. Did they say why you were supposed to go to Ndwedwe? MR KHUZWAYO WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are calling no other evidence? MS MTANGA No I am not calling any other person Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Gabriel do you wish to address us? MS GABRIEL Very briefly Mr Chairperson. MS GABRIEL IN ARGUMENT It is our submission that the applicant has made a full disclosure. The crimes that he has been sentenced for were gruesome and chilling and he did not withhold any of that evidence and admitted quite openly to the full extent of what happened that evening. It is also clear that the applicant was a member and acted in his official capacity of what may have been the banned ANC or the UDF. It is clear that he was an ANC supporter, that he was a UDF supporter, both of which were political organisations, publicly recognised at the least. It is also clear that his actions arose as a result of a meeting of supporters and the leadership of these publicly recognised political organisations, that the decision was taken in response to political tension in that area and that he acted in furtherance of this decision. The evidence, as you rightly pointed out Mr Chair, of Mr Khuzwayo really does not refute the disclosure made by the applicant and in a sense does very little to indicate that the applicant acted out of a selfish motive or a personal motive, or a non political motive and indeed there has been no suggestion that that was the basis for his actions. In the circumstances and given the fact that the applicant has made a full disclosure we submit that the requirements of Section 20 of the Act are met and we would urge this committee to grant the applicant the amnesty he requests. ADV BOSMAN Ms Gabriel, what would your submission be to MS GABRIEL CHAIRPERSON What was expected to be achieved and was what done, what was done not totally disproportionate to any objective which they hoped to achieve? MS GABRIEL CHAIRPERSON That could have been done by getting hold of Mr Xulu himself. MS GABRIEL That much is true. CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL With respect Mr Chair, on the evidence submitted by the applicant, their marshals were sent to check on whether the deceased was there with his group and I took that to mean his group of IFP supporters. The marshal came back with the information that they were present. It is not disputed that the applicant knew that there was a vigil and that the rest of his group knew that there was a vigil and that there would be bound to be many people there. My submission is really that the decision was made to rid the community of the deceased and all that surrounded him. ADV BOSMAN But Ms Gabriel, sorry to interrupt you, if I recall correctly, the evidence was that the marshal had reported that his wife or wives and children were there, not just simply an undefined group. CHAIRPERSON There was a wake as a result of the death of the two sons. They were mourning, that is what was taking place there. I think there was no hint that there were a lot of armed people who were supporters of Mr Xulu himself who were at the house providing protection or security or anything of that kind. There were just women and children there and they were mourning the death of these two people. MS GABRIEL On the evidence admitted by the applicant, it was clear that they expected a counter attack by Mr Xulu. CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL These were the rumours, in my submission, that fuelled the ultimate decision. CHAIRPERSON And so they send somebody to go there and that person comes back and says that there are women and children there in the house. MS GABRIEL CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL My submissions are the following Mr Chairperson. This was a community racked by violence, this was a community racked by political tension. It was a process of ongoing tension, it was clear that it was supporters of the IFP and the leadership was identified. It is true that the Crisis Committee could not reach a decision about the killing of the women and the children. On that basis they refused to make a decision and took it back to the general body of the IDF supporters at which point they discussed the problems experienced by the community all the time. CHAIRPERSON That was an artificial discussion INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL On the applicants evidence CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL My submissions Mr Chair are that this is a decision that was not lightly taken. It was presented to the community, it was on balance decided that the only way that they could do this was to destroy him and the people that surrounded him and it had to happen before the counter attack. ADV BOSMAN It was appreciated that the people who you refer to as having surrounded him, were women and children. MS GABRIEL That much was appreciated, the decision was not made lightly. The only submission that I can make is that the community must have suffered enormously to have been driven to a point where, after general deliberation, they endorsed the fact that they wanted stability in the region and that the only way to do it was to kill everybody present. CHAIRPERSON MS GABRIEL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Is there anything else you wish to say. MS GABRIEL Those are my submissions. CHAIRPERSON You did say earlier on that you were not in possession of the information which concerned the granting of indemnity to the persons who were accused numbers 1, 2 and 3 in the trial with the applicant. MS GABRIEL Neither those instructing me, nor I, have any information on that. The only information we have is from the applicant. In our consultations this morning I did ask the applicant, and I specifically asked "Was that amnesty or indemnity granted by the State?" and his response was in the affirmative. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you wish to reply? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. MS MTANGA ADDRESSES Dingidawo, had disturbed the peace that they were seeking to achieve. And it is therefore the submission of the family that the applicant had no political objective in killing the families, surely the children of Mr Dingidawo. CHAIRPERSON Is that all you wish to say? MS MTANGA That is all I wish to say Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson that was the agreement he made with our office. CHAIRPERSON MR KONKE CHAIRPERSON It seems that we must have some record. MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Yes please. Thank you very much. Any question you wish to put? ADV BOSMAN No questions, thanks Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you have anything to say? Before I adjourn to tomorrow morning, what can you tell me about the programme for tomorrow? MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS