amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-05-20 PIETERMARITZBURG 4 CYRIL BONGANI THUSI AM8013/97 RICHMOND MURDER https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53401&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99051721_pmb_990520pm.htm CHAIRPERSON Will all the legal representatives place themselves on record please, starting with the Applicant. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. My name is John Wills, Attorney of Pietermaritzburg. I am acting for the applicant Bongani Cyril Thusi in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR COETZEE Mr Chairman, may it please you. I have been instructed by the implicated persons, Captain Meering and the farmer Mr Mortezan. CHAIRPERSON Your name is? MR COETZEE Mr Chairman, Petrus Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON Mr Coetzee. MR COETZEE Mason Wynburg Attorneys, Pietermaritzburg. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS JELAL Mr Chairman, I am Shireen Jelal from Shireen Jelal and Associates. I represent the victims of the Richmond Massacre. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS WILLIAMS Mr Chairperson, my name is Gillian Williams. I am appearing on behalf of the IFP members who have been implicated by the amnesty applicant. CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE That is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE As you please. MR WILLS Mr Chairperson, if I could just come in here. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS No. CHAIRPERSON Yes. But I mean you can clear that up with him without holding up the works of this Committee. MR WILLS MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON It certainly would assist the Committee. MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON MR COETZEE CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR COETZEE As it pleases you. CHAIRPERSON Unless you have authority to part with that pocketbook? MR COETZEE I have taken instructions from here, Captain Meering has given me authority to hand this original pocketbook over to you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, for the purpose of the proceedings, but I think that for the purposes of final record, these books must be kept where they ought to be kept. MR COETZEE As you please. CHAIRPERSON So perhaps it will be appropriate for you not to leave us just yet. Thank you very much. MR COETZEE As you please. CHAIRPERSON Have you had a chance of looking at the names of the people who lost their lives in that attack Mr Wills? MR WILLS Yes, we do Mr Chairperson. Our position remains somewhat similar in that the applicant will say that he attacked an ANC area on an evening, some month in 1991, he cannot remember the names. CHAIRPERSON Well he would not have known the names, would he? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON This was an attack carried out at random at night. MR WILLS Yes indeed Mr Chairperson, but why we were concerned about the issue of the three days as opposed to what we believe is, the attack occurred in the one day, that would enable us by the other evidence, to infer that in fact, because these people died on that month in that particular location, that the applicant must have been involved in the attack that caused the death of those persons. CHAIRPERSON I agree with you. MR WILLS Thank you, Mr Chairperson. May I call the applicant? CHAIRPERSON Yes, please do. CYRIL BONGANI THUSI (sworn states) MR WILLS Thank you. May I proceed Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes certainly. MR WILLS Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Mr Thusi, you filled out an Amnesty Application form and you attached an Affidavit thereto from where you presently are at Westville Prison on the 27th of September 1997. Is that correct? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Does he have a copy before him? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS You filled in the Annexure which is the prescribed form for Amnesty and in that you said that you referred to an Affidavit. Is that correct? And I refer to specific sections of the form from Section 8B onwards. Do you see that? You refer on the prescribed form on numerous occasions, you refer to seeing to an Affidavit. Is that right? I am referring to page 2 of the bundle, 3, 4 of the bundle, 5 of the bundle. CHAIRPERSON In other words, you make reference in your application from time to time to an Affidavit. Is that correct? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON And does that Affidavit appear to be dated the 27th of September 1994? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Have a look at the Affidavit. Is it sworn on the 27th of September 1994? ADV SANDI You must look at the very last page of it, Mr Thusi, the last page of the Affidavit. MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills, this document appears between pages 8 and 12 of the bundle, 7 and 12. MR WILLS Yes indeed. Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Do you confirm the contents of that Affidavit? MR THUSI Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what that means? That means that you are reaffirming that what you have said in that Affidavit is the truth. MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR WILLS Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Now, is it so that you are applying for amnesty in respect of two incidents? One, an attack in Richmond where a number of ANC people were killed, that attack we know now happened on the 23rd of June 1991. MR THUSI MR WILLS And the second incident in respect of which you are applying for amnesty relates to the killing of one Paulus Zulu in Ulundi in January 1994. Is that correct? MR THUSI MR WILLS And then you are also applying for amnesty in respect of the possession of certain firearms, the illegal possession of certain firearms. Is that correct? MR THUSI MR WILLS Well, in the attack in Richmond you said you were using an AK47. Is that correct? CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI Yes, I was using an AK 47, but I was never caught with that AK47. CHAIRPERSON Does it appear from his application form? ADV SANDI MR WILLS Yes on page 7 of the Application and also on page 17, of paragraph 17 on page 9 of the bundle he refers to the usage of an AK Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS In the, on page 7 of the bundle, paragraph 3.3. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR WILLS Now, you were born in Richmond in April 1971 and you were educated up to Standard 9. ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Wills, does he confirm that he is applying for unlawful possession of that, because I thought he just said he was never caught in possession of firearms and ammunition? MR WILLS Thank you, Mr Committee Member. Mr Thusi, is it not so that when you were involved in the attack in Richmond you had in your possession an AK47 and you used it. Is that right? MR THUSI MR WILLS MR THUSI MR WILLS And obviously that means you were never caught with the AK or prosecuted for the AK. Is that correct? MR THUSI MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson. You were born in Richmond in April 1971 and you left school after obtaining standard 9 in 1986. Is that right? MR THUSI MR WILLS Your brother, Ndodi Thusi, was involved in the IFP. He, in fact, was an enthusiastic member and he became a leader of the IFP in the Richmond area. Is that right? MR THUSI MR WILLS He was the person who was the major influence upon you, which influenced you to become a member of the IFP. Is that right? MR THUSI MR WILLS MR THUSI MR WILLS MR THUSI MR WILLS Whilst you received this training, what did your trainers tell you about the ANC? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON What did that mean? MR WILLS Sorry, Mr Chairperson, the applicant has indicated to me that he is battling to hear, if I understood his signal correctly. I wonder CHAIRPERSON Is the mike not working? INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Sorry. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON When you said that the ANC, you were told that the ANC and the Communists needed to be removed, what did that mean? MR THUSI The only way we would remove them was to kill them. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR WILLS You mention in paragraph 10 of your Affidavit that one of these leaders who said this was Brig Mzemela. Is that right? MR THUSI MR WILLS Now when you returned to Richmond there was a lot of violence in the area. Is that right? There was, the conflict between the ANC and the IFP was quite intense. MR THUSI MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Highlight what you regard as important in your questions to him you see. MR WILLS Yes thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. MR WILLS MR THUSI MR WILLS But they returned, is that not so? MR THUSI MR WILLS What did you have to do about their return? MR THUSI When they returned from Pietermaritzburg, they started attacking us, therefore we also attacked them. MR WILLS Now I want to refer specifically to the incident in which you apply for amnesty, where a lot of people were killed, I think the estimates are 16 people were killed in an attack on the 23rd of June 1991 in Richmond. Do you recall that incident? MR THUSI Yes, I do. MR WILLS I want you to tell the Committee, in as much detail as you can remember, about that incident commencing from how you got involved in the incident on the day. Can you proceed? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI What I remember is that a day before the attack, my brother Ndodi Thusi had a meeting with Mr Vezi and I am happy because Mr Vezi is right here inside the hall. After the meeting, when my brother came back, gathered IFP Members at home, and told us that Vezi and other IFP members were going to come at night and we were going to attack ANC members. MR WILLS Carry on. MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Just stop there please. When you say "they came", who is they? MR THUSI INTERPRETER Can I proceed? CHAIRPERSON Yes please. Where did you go to when you joined them? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Yes, you said that "we joined them" and where did you go to? MR THUSI We went to Silhlambewu first to attack there. CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER Silhlambewu CHAIRPERSON Where is this? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON How many of you went there? MR THUSI I cannot be certain about the number but we were approximately 50. CHAIRPERSON And were all of them armed? MR THUSI When you are referring to being armed, what exactly do you mean? Do you mean guns, or CHAIRPERSON Any kind of arms, assegais, spears, knobkierries, guns. MR THUSI Yes, we were armed with assegais, spears, guns and sticks. MR WILLS What were you armed with? MR THUSI AK47. MR WILLS Proceed and tell us what you did. MR THUSI We attacked Silhlambewu first and up until to Magoda area. CHAIRPERSON When you say we attacked Silhlambewu, did you attack a particular house, did you attack a particular place, or did you attack people walking in the streets? What do you mean? MR THUSI MR WILLS Do you know what political party the occupants of these areas were? MR THUSI Yes, I do know. MR WILLS Can you tell the Committee? MR THUSI ADV SANDI CHAIRPERSON No man. MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR THUSI When we finished there we went to Ndaleni. We also attacked people who were asleep. CHAIRPERSON Just pause there. At this first place, Silhlambewu, do you know how many people were killed? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Do you know how many people you shot at? MR THUSI Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Tell me. MR THUSI Six. MR WILLS Those people you shot at, those six people, do you know whether or not they died, or whether they were injured? MR THUSI I cannot be certain whether they died or they survived, but when I shot at them my aim was to kill them. MR WILLS Yes, you say you continued to Ndaleni. What happened there? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON How far is Ndaleni from that first place, do you know? MR WILLS Mr Thusi, can you tell us, how far is Ndaleni from Silhlambewu? MR THUSI I can estimate it to be like a kilometer, just one kilometer. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR WILLS This person you recall as being called Charlie, do you know if his surname was Basi? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Is he one of the victims? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Anyway, he says he only knows the name of one victim that day, that is Charlie. MR WILLS Now, can you recall how many people you shot at at Ndaleni? MR THUSI MR WILLS To your knowledge, was anybody killed at Ndaleni by the other participants in the attack? MR THUSI MR WILLS Now I see from the Indictment that a lot, well certainly women and children were killed on that attack. Did you see women and children being killed? MR THUSI Yes, I saw. MR WILLS Now why were women and children attacked, do you know? MR THUSI I think the aim of attacking women and children was because we wanted to scare the ANC in that area, we wanted them to leave the area and never come back because if they knew that their children were going to die, they were not going to come back. MR WILLS And when you attacked Ndaleni, whereabouts, what did you do then? Just continue with your story. You got up to the point where you were busy attacking Ndaleni. Can you tell us what happened thereafter? MR THUSI We went to Magoda and we also attacked there and this was the last attack on that night. CHAIRPERSON And is Magoda also within walking distance from Ndaleni? MR THUSI Yes. MR WILLS Now, Magoda and Ndaleni, are they areas where people of a particular political persuasion reside, and if so, what is the political persuasion of the people who reside in those areas? MR THUSI Silhlambewu, Ndaleni, Magoda were ANC predominantly supporters. MR WILLS Now at Magoda, were people killed? MR THUSI Yes, there were. MR WILLS Were you involved in killings at Magoda? Yourself, personally, did you shoot anybody at Magoda? MR THUSI MR WILLS Why not? MR THUSI I cannot explain why, it just happened. Only two people died at Magoda area because most people had died when Phateni attacked them. When we attacked, only two people died. ADV SANDI The two people you say died at Magoda, were they also women and children? MR THUSI I cannot remember very well, I think they were children. MR WILLS And after you had attacked Magoda, what did you do? MR THUSI We went back home and people from Phateni also went back to Phateni. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Just hold on. How do you spell this name Phateni? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Where was your home? What was the area of your home at that stage, what was it called? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON At the time of this attack, where was your home? MR THUSI At Ndaleni. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Wills, can we just clear up one thing here. At paragraph 14 he says they went to Ndaleni, Magoda, Silhlambemu and Smozomeni. He did not give any evidence about Smozomeni. MR WILLS Yes, can you look at paragraph 14 of your Affidavit, Mr Thusi. You mentioned that you also attacked an area called Smozomeni. Do you see that? MR THUSI It is because the following day we discovered that the people who came from Phateni also attacked Smozomeni on their way to where we were. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS MR WILLS What happened the next day? I see you went to the police station the next day, is that right? MR THUSI MR WILLS Can you recall what happened there? MR THUSI MR WILLS Now, as I understand your evidence, am I correct in saying that Mr Vezi was the leader of the IFP people from Phateni. MR THUSI Would you please repeat the question? MR WILLS As I understand your evidence you have indicated that Mr Vezi was the leader of the IFP people from Phateni. Is that right? MR THUSI MR WILLS And your brother was the leader of the IFP people from your area. Is that right? MR THUSI Yes, he was a leader at Ndaleni. MR WILLS Yes, and on the night of the attack, the two areas got together, the IFP people from Phateni and IFP people from your area and they both participated in this attack on the ANC areas, is that right? MR THUSI MR WILLS Yes. It seems that your evidence is to the effect that the IFP people from Phateni and the IFP people from Ndaleni got together and they both participated in the attack. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he said that. MR THUSI MR WILLS Now why did you attack that night? What was the purpose of your attack? MR THUSI MR WILLS MR THUSI No. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Just before you get somewhere else. Was anybody else prosecuted? MR WILLS Do you know if other people were prosecuted, other participants in this attack were prosecuted for it? MR THUSI MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Where are you in your Affidavit at this stage? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Thank you, do carry on. MR WILLS You were sent to have training in Ulundi during 1992. Is that right? MR THUSI MR WILLS And here you met Dalakolo Lithuli. Is that right? MR THUSI MR WILLS After that you were sent to the Germiston area where you worked with a Righteous Visimusi Mvalasi? MR THUSI MR WILLS And then, after an argument with this person, you returned to Ulundi sometime during 1993. MR THUSI MR WILLS It was in January 1994 that you participated in the murder of a person by the name of Petrus Zulu and you are applying for amnesty for your participation in regard to that incident, is that correct? MR THUSI MR WILLS Can you tell this Committee what your participation in this murder was? I want you to explain in as much detail as you can remember from the beginning up until the murder of this individual. MS MTANGA Can I come in at this stage? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS MTANGA The agreement we had with Adv Wolmarans was that we would first lead evidence and do cross-examination on the Richmond incident. CHAIRPERSON I understand. He is not here to take part in these proceedings. MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MS JELAL Yes, Mr Chairman, I wish to point out at this time that there would be cross-examination. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Yes. Will you proceed? MS JELAL Thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS JELAL Was there any provocation by the ANC immediately prior to your attack? MR THUSI Yes there was. MS JELAL What was the provocation? MR THUSI Because we were IFP members. CHAIRPERSON No the question is, what was the provocation? MR THUSI Yes, they used to kill IFP members. MS JELAL Were any IFP members killed just before this attack? CHAIRPERSON You mean on the day of this attack, or the day before that, or what? MS JELAL I mean on the day of the attack. CHAIRPERSON I cannot be certain that it was on that day specific. This was the day we chose to retaliate. MS JELAL In your examination-in-chief you said that you personally shot six people. In which areas were these six people shot? MR THUSI Silhlambewu. MS JELAL Do you recall if these six people were men only or men, women and children? MR THUSI Male. MS JELAL How long did this attack take? CHAIRPERSON Carry on. You were asked how long did the attack take? In other words, your attack. MR THUSI MS JELAL No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS JELAL CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga, have you any questions to put? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, I do. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Mr Thusi, do you know if Mr Gumbe, that is Mr Ndodosi Gumbe and Mr Robert Zuma, who have also applied for this incident, do you know if they were part of the group that joined in the attack? MR THUSI It is not easy for me to know if they were there because it was at night, but I heard that there were people who applied for amnesty in respect of the Richmond killings. MS MTANGA In your evidence you stated that the group that carried out a spear attacked on that night came from Phateni and also from your area. Is that correct? MR THUSI MS MTANGA Mr Gumbe and Mr Zuma came from Ngobeni, is it the same area as your area or is it the same area as Phateni? How would they have joined the group? MR THUSI If you can please repeat the name of the area you said they were from? CHAIRPERSON Do you know where Mr Gumbe and Mr Zuma came from? MR THUSI MS MTANGA Do you know the area of Ngobeni, Mr Thusi? CHAIRPERSON What area? MR THUSI There is no such an area in Richmond. There is no Ngobeni in Richmond. MS MTANGA Mr Thusi, the applicant, your co-applicants, Mr Gumbe and Mr Zuma allege that they came from Ngobeni which was also in Richmond. MR THUSI MS MTANGA Amongst the group that carried out the attack on the 23rd of June were there people from Umkobeni in your knowledge? MR THUSI MS MTANGA was the attack carried out by the ANC on them during the day on the 23rd, so they went on to retaliate that specific attack. Do you know about this? MR THUSI MS MTANGA You have testified that you carried out attacks on women and children. Was this the policy of your organisation, to kill women and children? MR THUSI MS MTANGA Mr Thusi, if there is no policy in the IFP to kill people, how can you justify your killing of the people in Richmond, which you are applying for today? MR THUSI MS MTANGA Are you telling this Committee that you went on and killed people knowing that you were going against the policy of the IFP, your organisation? MR THUSI The killing of people never came from our hearts, we did this because we were defending ourselves. They were also attacking us. MS MTANGA MR THUSI MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON I think that that is quite clear that there is no political policy saying that they must go around killing people, but we know that this conflict had been raging in the area without there being any political policy of the parties. MS MTANGA That is then my cross-examination Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS WILLIAMS Mr Chairperson, as the applicant said, Mr Vezi is here. Would I have an opportunity to consult with Mr Vezi regarding the evidence-in-chief of the applicant and then take his further instruction? CHAIRPERSON We will take a short adjournment at this stage and afford you an opportunity to see Mr Vezi. MS WILLIAMS Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We will resume in 15 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CYRIL BONGANI THUSI (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON You may proceed. MS JELAL Mr Chairman at this point in time I wish to place on record the names of the deceased and those that were injured, for the different areas in which they were injured or attacked. CHAIRPERSON On that night? MS JELAL On the night of the 23rd, on that particular night that the applicant has spoken about. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now then Mr Wills you are aware of this? MR WILLS Yes, we have had discussions, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and is this by consent? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MS JELAL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON MS JELAL Thank you Mr Chairman. I will first deal with the Townlands area. CHAIRPERSON What area? MS JELAL Townlands. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS JELAL CHAIRPERSON MS JELAL Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS JELAL May I proceed? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS JELAL The murder of Malo Elsa Dlamini. Attempted murder of Emily Dlamini. That concludes the Townlands murders and assaults. CHAIRPERSON What was the name of Mr Dlamini? MS JELAL Mr Chairman are you looking at the second Dlamini? CHAIRPERSON Before that, before Emily Dlamini. That was the one and the one before that? MS JELAL Kijema James Dlamini. MR WILLS Mr Chairperson, sorry to interrupt here, but just to avoid any confusion here, the applicant's evidence will be to the effect that he did not participate in the attack in this Townlands area so he is not applying for amnesty in respect those names. He surmises, due to the geographical layout of the town which has been shown to him, that these people were probably killed by the group that came earlier, but he is not applying for amnesty for that. CHAIRPERSON Yes alright. Well, can we then confine ourselves to the group of people that were killed by the party of which the applicant is a member? MS JELAL Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Alright, please proceed. MS JELAL We are now looking at the Silhlambewu area for which the applicant is claiming amnesty for attacks on. It was the murder of Siabonga Duma.... CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS JELAL Attempted murder of Kwandeni Duma. Attempted murder of Zandile Duma. Attempted murder of Basikile Duma. Attempted murder of Gertrude Duma. Attempted murder of Stinky Nobule Duma. Attempted murder of Ngingi Liverance Ngcobo. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that surname? MS JELAL Ngcobo. Murder of Ntjolo Salitile Gomande Zondi. Murder of Mukushwa Nivad Msomi.... CHAIRPERSON MS JELAL Attempted murder. CHAIRPERSON Now you are dealing with murders and you mentioned the name of Zondi? MS JELAL Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS JELAL Murder of Mukushwa Nivad Msomi. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS JELAL Murder of Pickup John Poswha. MS JELAL Mr Chairman that concludes the list for the Silhlambewu area. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS JELAL With regards to the Ndaleni area, the murder of Charlie Basi. Murder of Leon Sikumbuzo Thomson. CHAIRPERSON MS JELAL Leon Sikumbuzo. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MS JELAL Murder of Ntelezi Mncube. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell those names? MS JELAL Ntelezi Mncube. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS JELAL Attempted murder of Paulus Strans Kumbula, Attempted murder of Mpiyezwe Isaac Mbanjwa. CHAIRPERSON How do you spell that first name? MS JELAL Mpiyezwe. CHAIRPERSON And the surname? MS JELAL Mbanjwa. Attempted murder of Dumisani Mtolo. CHAIRPERSON Mtolo? MS JELAL That is correct. Attempted murder of Dumisani Ncunene. Attempted murder of Themba Mchunu. CHAIRPERSON Mchunu? MS JELAL That is correct. That concludes the list of the two areas for which the applicant is applying for amnesty for murders and assaults. MR WILLS Mr Chairperson, possibly I can assist my learned friend and the Committee and not be necessary to produce a list by referring to the Indictment and all of those people are included on the Indictment and if I can give you the counts in respect of those persons, I have listed them on the Indictment. CHAIRPERSON Where does it appear? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON This is in Section B? MR WILLS Yes. And these persons are listed, commencing at Count 10 on page 6, Mr Chairperson, of the Indictment, that is. CHAIRPERSON Count 10? MR WILLS Yes. The counts I read into the record now are the persons in respect of whose murders the applicant is applying for amnesty for. CHAIRPERSON Yes, just hold it. Right. MR WILLS And it is the exact same list as has been read out by my colleague. CHAIRPERSON Right, just give us the numbers of the counts. MR WILLS Count 10, Count 11,12,13,14,15,16,19,20,21,23, 24,25,26,27,28,29,30. That concludes the list, thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I make it 18 matters. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. This is now beyond refute. Ms Mtanga you accept this, do you? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson I do. CHAIRPERSON Miss Jelal, thank you for your assistance. MR WILLS Yes, Mr Chairman, we have established that between ourselves. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Is there anything you want? Are you satisfied now? ADV BOSMAN CHAIRPERSON Are you satisfied now? ADV SANDI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes please proceed. MR WILLS Mr Chairperson, can I proceed with the second incident at this stage? CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS As it pleases. Mr Chairperson I have obviously completed my examination-in-chief in respect of that incident. CHAIRPERSON Yes I think cross-examination is over but is there anything else you wish to put to this applicant, anything further? MS JELAL CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA Nothing further Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Anything for you? MS WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON Just hold a minute. You say that the implicated persons are not opposing? MS WILLIAMS Yes, that is correct Chairperson, they are not opposing the Amnesty Application of Mr Thusi. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS WILLIAMS And that my instructions are that they no knowledge of the allegations made by Mr Thusi to the Committee today. And that I will not be addressing any questions to Mr Thusi directly. CHAIRPERSON That really means that they have no knowledge of the allegations he makes concerning them. MS WILLIAMS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS WILLIAMS Thank you Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga we can now proceed with the second count. MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, I agree with that. CHAIRPERSON Will that be convenient? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR WILLS May I proceed? CHAIRPERSON Yes please. EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Thank you. involvement in the death of one Petrus Zulu who was killed in Ulundi in 1994. I want you to tell the Committee what your involvement in that incident was. MR THUSI Regarding the death of Mr Zulu in Ulundi A Section and my participation in his death on the day he was killed. A man called Zwelake Dlamini, who was also a police, he came to my place. He told me that it was the day when Mr Zulu was supposed to be killed. I went with him, my reasons were being that I hated anyone who was an ANC or was a supporter or sympathiser. CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI We waited a while outside to see as to what was going to happen and later a certain car came. That car was being driven by a certain male who was a neighbour. CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON 15? MR THUSI We were about 15 yes. ADV SANDI What time of the day was it? Sorry Chair. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. ADV SANDI What time of the day was it, Mr Thusi? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON At night? MR THUSI Yes, at night. CHAIRPERSON Were any of these 15 people that were there with you, dressed in any uniforms? MR THUSI When you are talking about uniform, which uniform are you talking about? Are you talking about an organisation uniform, or a church uniform, what uniform exactly are you talking about or are you referring here? CHAIRPERSON You mentioned that two of the police, two of the people that went with you were policemen, Kanyele and Dlamini. Were they policemen in uniform? MR THUSI When I say they were police, I mean that their job was being policemen, but on that day they were wearing their own clothes because they were not on duty. CHAIRPERSON So they were not in uniform. MR THUSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON And anybody else that wore any kind of uniform? Military uniform? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI I cannot say that they were not armed because it was at night but I remember very well that Zwele Dlamini and this other gentleman were armed. CHAIRPERSON Which other gentleman? MR THUSI It was Zwele Dlamini and Dudusi Kanyele. CHAIRPERSON So, only two of them went into the house and the rest of you stayed outside. MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Was it arranged beforehand that they were going to be the two people who are going to go in and the rest of you are going to stay out. Was that all planned? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Anyway, proceed. Now you arrive at the house, two of them go in and the rest of you stand outside? MR THUSI They entered his house, Dudusi Dlamini and Zwele. I heard gunshots and they came back. We were still waiting outside the house, we wanted to see as to what else was going to happen. After a while we saw a car, it was a government car from Department of Health, it belonged to Mr Nyoga, a neighbour. CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON And what happened? MR THUSI After that we left. We went back home. CHAIRPERSON So what did this car do? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Why do you mention this car? What significance has it to this case? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI Yes, it stopped. CHAIRPERSON Up to that stage all of you were still there? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Just please, just make our life a little more easy than you have made it so far. Two of your friends go in there, you hear gunshots, they come out and you are waiting to see what has happened. They tell you the job has been done. While you are there a car arrives. MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON You saw the car stopping. MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Did anybody get out of the car? MR THUSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON Who got out of the car? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Did you see a person get out of the car? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON How many people got out of the car? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON So after Zwele told you all to leave, did you all leave together? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON What happened next? MR THUSI You mean the very same night? CHAIRPERSON Yes, immediately after this incident, where did you go to or what did you do? MR THUSI I went straight back to the house where they fetched me. ADV BOSMAN Did you all go there on foot? Did you go on foot, did you walk back? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI If you could please repeat the question for me. CHAIRPERSON You mention the names of two people as having gone into the house. My question is, is it possible that others also went into the house with them? MR THUSI No, only two people entered the house. CHAIRPERSON And the shooting occurred inside the house and not outside the house. MR THUSI That I cannot remember very well because it wasn't right in front of my eyes, whether it was right inside the house or just outside the house. CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI ADV BOSMAN How many shots did you hear? Can you remember? MR THUSI I think I heard more than 5 shots. CHAIRPERSON After your two colleagues emerged from the house, did you ask them how many people they shot? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS The Evidence Leader Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do they form part of all the papers? MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA Chairperson, this is just information that I am receiving now and I had no knowledge of. CHAIRPERSON Is this material information? MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON I would like to place on record my disappointment that we are having these difficulties that delay our proceedings. How much time will you require? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON If there are going to be any other documents that are going to be handed in or used, please see to it that all that is done now and not during these proceedings. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CYRIL BONGANI THUSI (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Before proceeding with the evidence of this witness, we were handed in photocopies of extracts from the handbook of the police and it will go in as Exhibit 1, but is there any indication as to whose handbook it was? MR WILLS F.J. Steyn, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON This document will go in as Exhibit 1 in the record. Mr Thusi, you are reminded that you are still under oath. Do you understand? MR THUSI Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Wills. EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS (cont) Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Thusi, when you say the two assailants went into the house, what do you mean? When you say that Zwele David Dlamini and Dodosi Kanyele, they were part of your group and they were armed and they went into the house, what do you mean? MR THUSI I meant that they entered the gate, in other words inside the yard, not inside the house. I think there was a misunderstanding there. What I meant is inside the yard, they entered the gate, not the house or the door of the house. MR WILLS MR THUSI MR WILLS Now what was the purpose of you standing outside? CHAIRPERSON Are you talking about him personally, or all 15 of them, all his group? MR WILLS MR THUSI My job was to safeguard, so as to see whether police were coming. MR WILLS ADV BOSMAN Excuse Mr Wills, can we just get that clear. Did you think your job was to safeguard or were you told that your job was to safeguard? MR THUSI I was told. MR WILLS Who told you? MR THUSI Zwele Dlamini. MR WILLS And when did he tell you this? MR THUSI MR WILLS Now why did you go with Zwele Dlamini? When he came to your house, you said that Zwele Dlamini came and he told you that Mr Zulu was going to be killed, why did you go with him? MR THUSI I trusted Zwele and he was my senior and a Caprivi trainee, so I trusted everything he told me. MR WILLS Now, why was Mr Zulu killed? MR THUSI MR WILLS Who did you hear that from? MR THUSI I would hear this in the offices, Mr Mzemela sometimes would mention this in the offices where I used to work. I would hear people saying he was an ANC supporter. MR WILLS When you refer to Mr Mzemela, who are you referring to? Which Mr Mzemela, in other words? MR THUSI MR WILLS Mr Robert Mzemela? MR THUSI ADV SANDI Did Mr Mzemela tell you why he thought Mr Zulu was an ANC supporter? Was he saying this to you personally when he said Mr Zulu was an ANC supporter? MR THUSI He was telling me personally. ADV SANDI Did he tell you why he thought he was an ANC supporter? MR THUSI ADV SANDI Thank you. Mr Wills. MR WILLS MR THUSI Yes, I do know Gideon Zulu. MR WILLS Who is he? MR THUSI MR WILLS Do you know Nzwembe Sibiya? CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS As you please, Mr Chairperson. I was going to just clear up whether or not he knew the second person first. CHAIRPERSON Alright, do that. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. Do you know Nzwembe Sibiya? MR THUSI MR WILLS Do you know if, do you have any personal knowledge as to whether or not this order to kill Zulu came from Prince Gideon Zulu? MR THUSI MR WILLS MR THUSI Yes, I do remember. MR WILLS MR THUSI MR WILLS Sorry Mr Chairperson my receiver seems to be very intermittent, I wonder if I could ask for an indulgence and change it? CHAIRPERSON Yes certainly. MR WILLS Thank you. Now is it so that you told her that you were given a 9mm by Brig Mzemela? MR THUSI Who are you referring to, Brig Mzemela or Robert Mzemela? MR WILLS Well let me rather ask you Mr Thusi, it says here and possibly you can help me, she refers to, you were given a 9mm by Mzemela. Did any Mzemela give you a 9mm? CHAIRPERSON Just read that sentence to him, please. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairman. I quote, "Thusi" this is the report by Stephanie Muller "Thusi carried a 9mm Parabellum which was issued to him by Mzemela as he was a bodyguard for Mvalasi and needed to be armed." Now what do you have to say about that? MR THUSI Yes, there were weapons or guns which were given to me by Mr Mzemela, including a 9mm. MR WILLS Which Mzemela was that? MR THUSI Robert Mzemela, I was working under him. MR WILLS And this report indicates that, and I quote "at the time of the murder they were all carrying handguns" that included yourself, it implies that you were carrying a 9mm, what do you have to say about that? This is on the night of the murder of Zulu. MR THUSI MR WILLS In other words you maintain your position that on that night you were unarmed, is that right? MR THUSI MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Which document is it? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON This statement. MR WILLS Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS As you please, Mr Chairperson. Just one point, there is mentioned in this statement of the two people, or of persons that were attacking Mr Zulu when he died on that night in January, that they were wearing Khaki overalls and brown overalls. Do you know anything about that? MR THUSI MR WILLS Thank you. And in respect of this incident, you have at no stage been prosecuted or arrested. Is that correct? MR THUSI MR WILLS No policemen have ever questioned you about your involvement in this murder or sought any information from you whatsoever, is that correct? MR THUSI MR WILLS This is in fact the first time you are mentioning this in public, is that right? CHAIRPERSON Does it matter? MR THUSI MR WILLS MR THUSI MR WILLS You were worried about INTERPRETER MR WILLS And you were worried that, you wanted to stop the ANC and the Communists from coming into power. MR THUSI MR WILLS In conclusion, do you have anything you want to say to the victims of those people, the relatives of the victims who were involved in these acts. MR THUSI Yes. MR WILLS Carry on. MR THUSI MR WILLS MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Yes, indeed, thank you Mr Chairperson. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Mr Wolmarans. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WOLMARANS Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Thusi, when you were asked to give the details about the killing of Mr Zulu, you were asked at length by the Honourable Chairman, about going into the house and who went into the house, how many people went into the house. It was clear from what you were saying, and certainly the impression created with me, was that at least two people entered the house as such, the structure. Do you agree with that? MR THUSI Yes. MR WOLMARANS So then why is it that you have changed your version, as it were, to now the position that nobody in fact entered the house, but that they only entered the yard and not the house as such? MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS MR THUSI Would you please repeat that question? MR WOLMARANS When you made the affidavit which forms part of your application, you must have realised the importance of the documents being accurate, is that not so? MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS Well if that is so then why, in your application, do you refer to the house when you knew that it was the yard? MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS Mr Thusi, was this in the front part of the house or the back part of the house that the shootings took place? MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS But Mr Thusi, you were the person who was there, you saw them entering, you saw where the shooting took place, only you can tell us whether it was the front or the back of the house. MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON There are these two gentlemen who entered the gate. Is the gate in the front of the house, or at the back of the house? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON You stood outside the gate, in front of the house? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Now would that playground be in front of the gate outside the yard, or was it somewhere else, this playground? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Now you want to know whether the shooting came from the front or from the back of the house, meaning the yard. Is that what you want to know? Now you have given us a picture. You were standing outside the gate in the playground. The playground is in front. There is a gate that leads into the yard. Now the questions is, was the shooting in the front yard of the house, or was the shooting in the back yard of the house? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Could you not see from where you were? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON MR WOLMARANS Chairperson, I think it must go to his credibility CHAIRPERSON MR WOLMARANS Yes, I intend to do that now Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR WOLMARANS Mr Thusi, I intend to lead evidence to state that the shooting in fact took place outside of the house at the back of the house, at the back door. Would you like to comment on that? MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS Mr Thusi, in your application at paragraph 27, you mention the persons that accompanied you on this mission. Is that correct? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS The question is, why did you not mention that there were 15 people, why do you only mention 4? MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS MR THUSI I explain that we were quite a number and then I mentioned only the names of the people whom I remembered. MR WOLMARANS Can we just now turn to the interview conducted with Stephanie Muller at the Westville Prison with you, this was on the 27th August 1997. Do you recall that interview. MR THUSI Yes, I do remember. MR WOLMARANS Stephanie Muller recalls that you told her "at the time of the murder they were all carrying handguns." Do you recall that? MR THUSI When I made this statement with this lady, whatever I said, I said it in Zulu and the prison worker interpreted to the lady on my behalf. Probably some of the facts were misled. MR WOLMARANS MR THUSI What exactly do you want me to explain? MR WOLMARANS Why is it that you told Stephanie Muller that all the participants or persons in the group were carrying handguns? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON You are given another chance. Think again. There is a sentence here in the last paragraph which says "at the time of the murder they were all carrying handguns." Do you recall saying that? MR THUSI CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR WOLMARANS Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Thusi, I want to suggest to you that the context in which this is given and the fact that it is recorded here that you were carrying a 9mm Parabellum, is not something which Stephanie Muller would have or could have made a mistake about. That information could only have come from you. Would you like to comment on that? MR THUSI As I have already explained that, I had a 9mm which was given to me by Mr Mzemela but on the day in question I had no weapon with me. MR WOLMARANS MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS Mr Thusi, I want to suggest to you that that was your evidence. CHAIRPERSON That was part of the evidence. The rest of the evidence was he was told they were going to kill Zulu and they wanted him to join and he joined them. MR WOLMARANS That is so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR WOLMARANS CHAIRPERSON MR WOLMARANS As you please, Mr Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN For the record perhaps I could indicate here that at the, initially at the start of his evidence, he said, Dlamini, who came to my place was telling me it was the day for Zulu to be killed. That was his evidence. CHAIRPERSON Now you have got what on the face of it appears to be a difference. MR WOLMARANS Yes. CHAIRPERSON But when you look at the overall picture, the fact of the matter is that he accompanied them because he knew that he was going to be killed. MR WOLMARANS Yes Mr Chairperson. Now, Mr Thusi you also told the Committee in reply to a question by Mr Wills, that you had heard that Zulu was an ANC supporter. Can we infer from that that at the time you yourself were not sure that he was in fact an ANC supporter? MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS Would you have accompanied this group of persons regardless of whether he was an ANC supporter or not? MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS Mr Thusi, my question is, regardless of whether he was an ANC supporter or not, would you have still gone with to kill him? CHAIRPERSON MR WOLMARANS No, Mr Chairperson, it goes to whether this was really a politically motivated murder or not. CHAIRPERSON MR WOLMARANS That would be the effect of the question, I withdraw the question. CHAIRPERSON MR THUSI ADV SANDI Mr Wolmarans, just one thing on this. Mr Thusi, did you know who they were talking about when they mentioned this name, Mr Zulu? Mr Zulu, was he someone you had seen before? MR THUSI Yes, I knew Mr Zulu. He was a man with a beard. ADV SANDI Besides his beard, what else did you know about him? MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS Mr Thusi did you at any time witness or overhear Mr Mzemela and Prince Gideon Zulu in conversation about anything? MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS CHAIRPERSON MR WOLMARANS CHAIRPERSON Were you present at any private conversations between Mzemela and Gideon Zulu? MR THUSI MR WOLMARANS Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WOLMARANS CHAIRPERSON you an opportunity, if there are questions you wish to put. They do not impact on your case, I know. MS JELAL No, Mr Chairman, no questions. CHAIRPERSON Have you anything to ask? MS WILLIAMS No, Mr Chairman, Thank you. MS MTANGA None, Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS Just one issue, thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Thusi, you had the interview with Stephanie Muller, that was interpreted. You spoke in Zulu, through an interpreter, who is a prison warder, and she made certain records, is that correct? MR THUSI MR WILLS At any stage did Ms Muller or anybody, for that matter, come back and ask you, and show you the written document and say to you, ask you to read through that document and say is this a correct transcript of what we spoke about? MR THUSI MR WILLS Thank you, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Mr Wills, I notice that the applicant is in prison uniform and it has transpired from his evidence that he was never tried and convicted for these offences. That would be for something else I take it? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Are there any questions you wish to put to him? Anything further? MR WILLS That is the case for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Mr Thusi, thank you very much. You are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Wills. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MS WILLIAMS No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are you on behalf of the dependents of the Richmond case, leading any evidence? MS JELAL No, Mr Chairman. MR WOLMARANS CHAIRPERSON MR WOLMARANS Yes Mr Chairperson. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR WOLMARANS the house at the time, a Nomuso Zulu also sustained gunshot wounds. CHAIRPERSON Any relative of the deceased? MR WOLMARANS CHAIRPERSON Was she injured? MR WOLMARANS She was also injured. She sustained a gunshot wound. CHAIRPERSON Has she recovered? MR WOLMARANS Yes, Mr Chairperson, she has recovered. Both have recovered from their injuries. CHAIRPERSON MR WOLMARANS That is the impression I have gained. He may not have been aware of the fact that there were other persons who may have been injured during the attack. CHAIRPERSON MR WOLMARANS Then that concludes any further submissions. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga is there any difficulty in the notion that Mrs Zulu and Namuso Zulu would be described as people who were victims of this attack and if there is any chance or prospect of reparation, that they might be entitled to some reparation? MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Yes, my question to you is there any difficulty in that regard? MS MTANGA No Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, Mr Wills. MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. May I commence with argument? CHAIRPERSON Yes please. MR WILLS Thank you. MR WILLS IN ARGUMENT Mr Chairperson I submit that the applicant has made out a case for amnesty. I submit that both acts were politically motivated and that he has, to the best of his ability, made full disclosure in relation to the facts surrounding those incidents. Again, the issue of the yard, whether it is inside the house or outside the house, Mr Chairman I submit CHAIRPERSON One can understand that is a matter of terminology sometimes in the African languages. MR WILLS Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson, but again the same argument is that there'd be no reason for him to lie on this point, if he was applying for amnesty in the first instance. I submit that in the above regards, that political motive has been clearly established and that the Applicant has done his best to fully disclose. The incidents, particularly the Richmond incident, occurred sometime ago, 1991, some eight years ago almost, therefore one cannot expect his memory to be as sharp as it might have been. CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS Thank you Mr Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN Mr Wills, could you perhaps make submissions on the attempted murder of the two other persons? Do we not perhaps have a difficulty in that your client testified that he went there because he was going to kill Mr Zulu. How would one come to some sort of common purpose conclusion there? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Mr Wolmarans. MR WOLMARANS IN ARGUMENT Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, my learned colleague has alluded to the contradictions which have been highlighted. How the Committee deals with those in deciding whether a full disclosure has been made is up to the Committee. If the Committee regards that as being of a material nature, then the Committee may have some difficulty in deciding whether a full disclosure has been made. One of the aspects which was not properly dealt with, I would submit, is the question of the number of people who took part in the attack on the Zulu household. In his application the Applicant mentions four people, and creates the impression, certainly in my mind, that it was a very small group of persons who took part in this murderous attack. And yet in his evidence he talks about 15 people who took part in the attack. There is ..(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR WOLMARANS Yes, perhaps it is Chairperson, but they were part of the group who certainly, had the need arisen, would have then taken part in defending those who were actually conducting the killing itself. CHAIRPERSON He certainly had made common purpose because he was serving a purpose there. MR WOLMARANS That is so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON He was on guard duty to alert his friend in the event of the police arriving, it would seem. He was as much part of the scene as the other two who were inside the house, MR WOLMARANS Certainly. CHAIRPERSON Who did the shooting. MR WOLMARANS My submission is only that there seems to be a discrepancy as to how many people were involved and how many people went there. Other than what I have said, save to say that on the face of it, it certainly appears that this was a politically motivated murder. I leave the decision as to whether the Applicant should be granted amnesty in respect of the offences for which he has applied, in the hands of the Committee. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Have you, on behalf of the dependents of the Richmond killing, anything to say? MS JELAL IN ARGUMENT However the question of proportionality with regard to the offences committed and whether it was the modus operandi of the IFP to kill people and to behave in that fashion, is still questionable. Mr Chairman, in the circumstances, the victims leave the ultimate decision to be made by the Commission. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Ms Mtanga, have you anything to say? MS MTANGA I am not opposing the application Chairperson and I am also not making any submission. I leave the matter to the hands of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Ms Williams, you had a very lengthy speech which you wrote out last night to deliver today. You can start. MS WILLIAMS Thank you Mr Chairperson. We are not opposing the amnesty application, we leave it in the hands of the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. Thank you for your assistance and co-operation. It is unfortunate that sometimes hiccups occur in the course of hearings that tend to delay hearings and one must endeavour to try and avoid these hiccups. The Committee will consider the evidence in this matter and in due course notify the dependents of the victims and the Applicant of the outcome of this application. The Committee will now adjourn till tomorrow morning. Before doing so, Ms Mtanga are you in a position us what is on the menu for tomorrow? MS MTANGA Chairperson, tomorrow we will be hearing the amnesty application of Mr Shangase. He is the only applicant in the matter. CHAIRPERSON And what time do you propose that we start? MS MTANGA Half past Nine Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Have Counsel been notified? Are you appearing, Mr Wills, in that matter? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MR WILLS One particular person, a Mr Romeo Mbamba. CHAIRPERSON MS WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON And do you know whether the Dependents are being represented? MS MTANGA Chairperson I think they are. I have just forgotten the name of their representative. CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Very well, I will adjourn now and resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS