amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-05-17 PIETERMARITZBURG 5 PRINCE BHEKISISA SHANGASE AM3825/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53402&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99051721_pmb_990521pm.htm MR SHANGASE We had a problem at the prison, they were refusing to bring us here. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE Please repeat your question. CHAIRPERSON Did they tell you that they were not going to bring you here? MR SHANGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE Mr Mkize. CHAIRPERSON Who is he? MR SHANGASE I know him as Mr Mkize. CHAIRPERSON Did he say why he was not going to bring you here? MR SHANGASE Yes, he did say. CHAIRPERSON What did he say? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON So how long does that take? If you were to change your private clothes and put on your uniforms, how long does that take? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON I want you to know that you are responsible to some extent. Everybody else is here, we were due to start at half past 9. You understand? MR SHANGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON I will telephone Mr Mkize and take the matter further with him. MR SHANGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Are you prepared to give evidence this morning? MR SHANGASE Yes. PRINCE BHEKISISA SHANGASE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON We are nearly an hour late and apart from the inconvenience that it is causing to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, to the legal people who are present, it also involves financial considerations. Money is wasted by delays such as this and I will see that steps are taken on behalf of the Amnesty Committee to communicate with police authorities, rather prison authorities, and complain that we are not getting the kind of co-operation from them that we ought to get and to which we are entitled. Will Counsel place themselves on record please? MR SAMUEL As the Chairman pleases. My name is Raymond Samuel. I appear on behalf of the applicant in this matter. MR WILLS As the Committee pleases. My name is John Wills, Attorney of Pietermaritzburg. I appear on behalf of the implicated person Mr Romeo Mbambo. MS WILLIAMS Mr Chairman my name is Gillian Williams. I appear on behalf of MrS Ndiwe Mbuyazi, one of the implicated persons. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are the Leader of Evidence? MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Are we ready to begin? MS MTANGA Yes, we are Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Samuel you will call the Applicant? MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may do so. MR WILLS Thank you. EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shangase, you confirm that you are bringing an application for amnesty arising out of the death of Victor Lungiswa Zumbu? MR SHANGASE Will you please repeat the name. MR SAMUEL Victor Lungiswa Zumbu. INTERPRETER MR SHANGASE Yes. MR SAMUEL In your application for amnesty you signed an Affidavit dated the 6th of September 1996, page 8 of the bundle, Mr Chairman. Do you confirm the contents of this Affidavit? CHAIRPERSON Does he have a copy before him? MR SAMUEL My apologies Mr Chairman. MR SHANGASE MR SHANGASE Yes, it is mine. MR SAMUEL Do you understand the contents of that Affidavit? MR SHANGASE Yes, I do. MR SAMUEL Do you confirm the contents of that Affidavit? MR SHANGASE Yes, I do. MR SAMUEL So do you confirm that that is the basis for your application for amnesty in this matter? MR SHANGASE Yes. MR SAMUEL Mr Shangase, is there anything you wish to add? MR SHANGASE Please repeat your question. MR SAMUEL Is there anything you wish to add to that Affidavit or anything you wish to take out from that Affidavit? MR SHANGASE I would like to add. MR SAMUEL Could you please proceed? MR SHANGASE I would like you to give me some guidance as to where to start. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE I am thirty-two years old. CHAIRPERSON Where did you live before you went to prison? MR SHANGASE At home in Umlazi. CHAIRPERSON What sort of work did you do before you went to prison? MR SHANGASE I was working for the South African Police. CHAIRPERSON Were you in fact a policeman? MR SHANGASE I was a policeman. CHAIRPERSON For how long? MR SHANGASE For about three years. CHAIRPERSON Where were you stationed? MR SHANGASE I was stationed at Maidenhof. CHAIRPERSON Are you married? MR SHANGASE No I am not married. CHAIRPERSON Did you know this man Victor Zwene, the deceased rather? MR SHANGASE No I did not know him. CHAIRPERSON You had never met him before? MR SHANGASE No. CHAIRPERSON You were involved in an incident which resulted in his death. Was that on the 9th of February 1995? MR SHANGASE Yes, that is true. MR SAMUEL I believe its 1993, according to the record Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Page 9 the typed copy, the date is 1995 MR SAMUEL On page 15 of the record, of the Court Record, the Indictment. CHAIRPERSON Page 15 you say? MR SAMUEL That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You say 9th of February 1993? MR SAMUEL That is correct. CHAIRPERSON How was Zumbu killed? MR SHANGASE He was shot. CHAIRPERSON How did you shoot him? MR SHANGASE I shot him once on his head. CHAIRPERSON Where did you get the gun from? MR SHANGASE Point of rectification, he was shot by Ntlaganepo Mtengwa. CHAIRPERSON I thought you said that you shot him in the head? INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Where were you when he was shot? MR SHANGASE I was in the car, the very car that we were driving. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Could you tell the Commission as to what happened on the day in question, as to how the deceased came to be shot and what was your part in this whole matter? MR SHANGASE I will start from the beginning. CHAIRPERSON No, just answer the question. How was the deceased shot and what part did you play in the shooting? MR SHANGASE Well, my role, or rather the role that I played, I took these boys in the car and transported CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE I am referring to Ntlaganepo Mtengwa and Ben Mlambo. CHAIRPERSON Yes do carry on. MR SAMUEL Now did you know that Ntlanganepo and Ben Mlambo were going to steal a motor vehicle on that night in question? MR SHANGASE No. CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL Thank you Mr Chairperson? Could you tell the Commission whose car were you all using on the night in question? MR SHANGASE MR SAMUEL And who is Bongnkosi Dube? MR SHANGASE He was a policeman at Siskaweni. MR SAMUEL Is it not true, on the day in question you went to, is it not true that you went to visit Mr Dube on the day in question? MR SHANGASE MR SAMUEL Do you confirm that the day in question you went to visit your friend, Mr Dube? MR SHANGASE Yes I visited him. MR SAMUEL And at whose request did Mr Dube lend you his car? MR SHANGASE He was not requested by anyone. MR SAMUEL MR SHANGASE MR SAMUEL MR SHANGASE MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Hold it, hold it. Did you ask Mr Dube for permission to use his car? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE He saw us leaving. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE MR SAMUEL Did you tell him where you were going to? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON Yes carry on. MR SAMUEL MR SHANGASE MR SAMUEL MR SHANGASE No, they did not make mention of that. MR SAMUEL MR SHANGASE Yes, we got there. MR SAMUEL Would you tell the Commission whether you know Mrs Mbuyazi. MR SHANGASE I know her. MR SAMUEL And who is Mrs Mbuyazi. MR SHANGASE MR SAMUEL MR SHANGASE We parked our car outside and then alighted from the car together with Hlani but I was left in the car. MR SAMUEL What happened thereafter? MR SHANGASE They got inside for a while, I would estimate about ten minutes and they got out together with Mrs Mbuyazi, coming to the car. MR SAMUEL Did Mrs Mbyazi come to the car thereafter? MR SHANGASE Yes, she came to the car. MR SAMUEL Does Mrs Mbyazi know you personally? MR SHANGASE Yes, she knows me very well. MR SAMUEL And did you speak to her on the day in question? CHAIRPERSON At that time? MR SHANGASE Yes, she greeted me. CHAIRPERSON When these three came out of the car to the house, came out of the house to the car, what happened then? MR SHANGASE They got inside the car, Ben and Ntlanganepo that is. Mrs Mbuyazi then told us that CHAIRPERSON Did all three of them get into the car or just the two companions? MR SHANGASE Ntlanganepo and Ben only was inside the car then Mrs Mbuyazi was left outside. CHAIRPERSON After they got into the car, what happened? MR SHANGASE Mrs Mbuyazi thereafter said she wishes us well, we should be careful. CHAIRPERSON What happened then? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON Where did you go to? MR SHANGASE They showed me the road leading to H2, right there at or in Eskowini. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE To H2 CHAIRPERSON What is H2? Is that a residential area? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. They showed you the road to go to H2 and then what happened? MR SHANGASE They showed me until we got to the place we were going to. CHAIRPERSON Where were you going to? MR SHANGASE We were going to H2. CHAIRPERSON What happened when you got to H2? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON And whilst you were driving you heard this conversation? MR SHANGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What was the next thing that happened? MR SHANGASE We took a u turn and drove back and joined one other road down the location, or that section in Eskowini. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE I did not know who they were talking about. CHAIRPERSON So after making the u turn, where did you drive to? MR SHANGASE In my opinion we were going back where we resided. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Tell me what happened then. MR SHANGASE When we got to a stop where we were supposed to join now the main road I was referring to down the location, I then saw a silver grey Golf approaching from the main road and indicating and I heard Ben and Ntlanganepo saying together at the same time that "here is this person". ADV BOSMAN Did they say a name or did they just say "here is this person"? MR SHANGASE They said that here is the person we are looking for or we want. CHAIRPERSON What happened then? MR SHANGASE Then they told me to take a u turn immediately and follow him close. Indeed I did exactly that. I followed him. CHAIRPERSON Yes. What happened then? MR SHANGASE We followed him until he parked his car in one house that I did not know and we drove past that house and we parked the car in front of his. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Please carry on. What happened then? MR SHANGASE Then we saw him alighting from his vehicle getting in this particular house. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. MR SHANGASE We waited for about a little more than 10 minutes and he came back, went back into his car. CHAIRPERSON Was he alone? MR SHANGASE Yes, he was alone. CHAIRPERSON And did he drive off? MR SHANGASE Yes, he drove off and we followed him still. CHAIRPERSON This house where he had stopped the car, did you know whose house that was? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON What happened when you followed his car? MR SHANGASE We followed him until we got to the main road, the very road that we saw him from. CHAIRPERSON For what distance did you travel about? MR SHANGASE I think it was one kilometre. CHAIRPERSON And what happened then? MR SHANGASE As Ntlanganepo and Ben were talking in the car, they were wondering if we should stop him right there or keep following him and get the idea as to where he was going to. CHAIRPERSON What were you saying? MR SHANGASE I am trying to explain that when we were following him from that house where we had parked our cars, Ben together with Ntlanganepo were talking in the car, discussing in the car as to what should be next and where should he be stopped or maybe should we follow him all the way until we get the idea or to the place where he was going to, the car in front, ahead of us. ADV BOSMAN Tell me, were you wearing your police uniform at this stage? MR SHANGASE No I was in my private clothes. CHAIRPERSON So what did they eventually decide to do? MR SHANGASE They then said to me I should flick some lights to him and try to stop him right away. CHAIRPERSON Who was it that said this to you? MR SHANGASE Ntlanganepo said I should stop him right then. ADV SANDI During all this time did you know why this person had to be followed? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE I did not know. CHAIRPERSON What time of the day was all of this? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON So did you flick your lights? MR SHANGASE Yes, I did. I did exactly that. CHAIRPERSON What happened? MR SHANGASE Indeed he stopped. CHAIRPERSON Yes. And then? MR SHANGASE And I parked right next to his car, on the right hand side of his car. CHAIRPERSON Alongside his car? MR SHANGASE Yes, on the right hand side. CHAIRPERSON Yes. What happened next? MR SHANGASE Ben and Ntlanganepo got out and went to him and spoke with the person. CHAIRPERSON Where was Ben? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON You told us Ntlanganepo went and spoke to this man in the car. At that stage, where was Ben? Or is he the same person? I beg your pardon. Did both of them get out of the car? MR SHANGASE Yes, both of them got out of the car. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, my mistake. Yes, they went out and they spoke to this person and you remained in the car? MR SHANGASE Yes, I remained in the car. CHAIRPERSON Yes. What happened then? MR SHANGASE ADV SANDI Why did you do that? MR SHANGASE My intention was to move from the road and park alongside the road because at the time I was partly parked in the main road. ADV SANDI You did not want to cause an accident on the road? MR SHANGASE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON So now, here you are, you are in one car and the other car is behind you. What happened then? MR SHANGASE At that time, when I was trying to park correctly in front of his car, I then heard the gunshot. CHAIRPERSON You were still in your car when you heard the gunshot? MR SHANGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What happened next? MR SHANGASE Then I applied brakes on the car and opened the door. As I was attempting to get out I saw Ntlanganepo pulling the driver of that vehicle, pulling him away from CHAIRPERSON Yes. Then you say you saw him pulling the driver out of the car. What happened then? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SHANGASE Then Ben rushed to me immediately and told me to drive and run away from that scene. CHAIRPERSON Did Ben accompany you in the car? MR SHANGASE Yes. ADV BOSMAN So what did you think was happening here? MR SHANGASE ADV BOSMAN MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON The question was this, you saw this person being shot, what went through your mind at that time, if anything at all? MR SAMUEL Before he answers the question, may I just please interrupt, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON MR SAMUEL On page 9 of the bundle you say that "she greeted me and then she bid a safe operation and that we must secure one another". What was the true position? Did she tell you be careful, or did she bid you a safe operation? MR SHANGASE She had said we must have a safe operation. MR SAMUEL Just one more question, Mr Chairman. What did you think she meant by this, by those words, have a safe operation? MR SHANGASE At that time I did not quite know as to what she was referring to or rather talking about. MR SAMUEL Did those words mean anything to you thereafter, after you saw this incident of the shooting? Would you then answer? MR SHANGASE Yes, when this thing was happening now, one person being shot without anything that was said to me prior to the incident, I then thought that that operation that lady referred to is this very one that is happening now. ADV BOSMAN MR SHANGASE I saw a person being shot and the vehicle being taken away. ADV BOSMAN What did you think about this taking of the vehicle, what was happening there? MR SHANGASE At that very moment they had not explained to me, Ben and Ntlanganepo, that for what reason were they killing that person and why they were taking his car away. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE No, I did not know that some person would be killed. ADV SANDI Did you ask the gentlemen who were travelling with you in the car, Ben and Ntlanganepo, did you ask them what Mrs Mbuyazi was talking about? CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE I did not know a thing at that particular time. CHAIRPERSON Did you in fact know that one of your companions was armed with a gun? MR SHANGASE Yes, I knew that they were armed. CHAIRPERSON Both of them were armed? MR SHANGASE Yes. ADV SANDI At what stage did you become aware that they were both armed? MR SHANGASE I got aware about that from the time we left the house we were living in. ADV BOSMAN Mr Shangase, would it not have been logical for you, when you were bade a good operation, to ask what operation is this? MR SHANGASE ADV BOSMAN CHAIRPERSON No, Mrs Mbuyazi ADV BOSMAN Mrs Mbuyazi, when she said have a safe operation and secure one another. Was this not the time when you should have asked your companions, but what operation are we going on? MR SHANGASE No, I did not ask. ADV BOSMAN CHAIRPERSON ADV BOSMAN MR SHANGASE I have no reason. CHAIRPERSON Were you armed that night? MR SHANGASE Yes, I was armed with a 9 mm. ADV SANDI Why were you armed? MR SHANGASE As the situation at the time was violent and the IFP, in fact the violence was rife at the time, all the time I would be armed because of the situation that prevailed at the time. CHAIRPERSON Yes, do carry on. We have reached the stage where you and Ben drove off. What happened after that? MR SHANGASE We drove off back to the house, the house we were living in. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE Romeo Mbambo and Bongnkosi Dube lived in that house and as well as, alright, Romeo Mbambo and Bongnkosi Dube and one other police by the name of Jabo lived in that house. CHAIRPERSON Its not where we lived, in other words you were not living in that house. MR SHANGASE No, I was not living in that house but I frequented, I visited that house. CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE Yes, we left it there. CHAIRPERSON And what happened next? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON What happened to the person that was shot? Did you just leave him lying there in the road? MR SHANGASE Yes, we left him lying there next to the road. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Samuel, do carry on. MR SAMUEL After Ntlanganepo had taken the motor vehicle, where did you all go to thereafter? MR SHANGASE MR SAMUEL Did you question Ntlanganepo as to why he had taken the motor vehicle? CHAIRPERSON You mean on that occasion, on that night? MR SAMUEL On that night, yes. CHAIRPERSON Did he get a chance to talk to him? MR SAMUEL Sorry, on the following day when you met. Did you, sorry CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think you should just go a little more carefully. MR SAMUEL Did you meet that night? CHAIRPERSON After Ntlanganepo shot this person and drove off in the car. Did you get a chance to question Ntlanganepo as to why he shot this person, that night? MR SHANGASE No, I did not have any opportunity that day. CHAIRPERSON Did you know where he was going to? MR SHANGASE No, I did not know. ADV BOSMAN Did you ask Ben? You were in the car with Ben, did you ask Ben whether he knew why the car was taken and why the man was shot? MR SHANGASE MR SAMUEL Did you have an opportunity to meet Ntlanganepo after the day of the incident? MR SHANGASE Yes. MR SAMUEL And did you speak to him about this incident? MR SHANGASE Yes, we met with him and we talked about this incident. CHAIRPERSON When was that? MR SHANGASE That happened when he got to Durban, driving the same vehicle, the following day. MR SAMUEL And what was his response when you asked him about the motor vehicle? MR SHANGASE When I asked him as to why he killed the person and took the car, he then said that that was according to the plan that he should kill the person and take the vehicle and go put it somewhere else far away so that it does not tie very well and evidence is destroyed somehow. CHAIRPERSON He said it was according to plan that the car has to be hidden. MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON Hidden far away, or abandoned? INTERPRETER Please repeat your question, Chair. CHAIRPERSON You say abandoned, are you trying to say it was hidden? There is a difference between a car being hidden and being abandoned. What did he say, did he say the car was to be abandoned or it was to be hidden? MR SHANGASE Truly speaking, that car was supposed to be thrown away, but then he said he wanted some place to hide it for a short time and then after that it will be thrown away. CHAIRPERSON This conversation you had with Ntlanganepo, that took place in Durban? MR SHANGASE Yes, that is so. CHAIRPERSON Was Ben present at the time? MR SHANGASE No, Ben was not there at the time. CHAIRPERSON What is the next thing that you did? MR SHANGASE I then took him to show him the place where he can possibly hide the car for a short while. CHAIRPERSON Where? MR SHANGASE At P section in Umlazi. CHAIRPERSON Was that your house? MR SHANGASE No. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and what happened then? MR SHANGASE ADV BOSMAN Whose house was this at P section? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON Spell the name please. The house of who? MR SHANGASE Must I spell out Siphiwe? CHAIRPERSON Yes please. MR SHANGASE Siphiwe. CHAIRPERSON Does he have any other names? MR SHANGASE His first name is Siphiwe and the surname is Mvuyani. CHAIRPERSON Yes. What was the next thing of any significance that happened? MR SHANGASE Another thing, Ntlanganepo told me that Mrs Mbuyazi would like to see me, if I have time. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SHANGASE Indeed I got an off from work and I went back to Eskowini. On my off day I went to, not that day when we met Ntlanganepo in Durban, days after that I got an off day from work and I went to Eskowini. CHAIRPERSON Why did you go there? MR SHANGASE Its because Ntlanganepo had told me that Mrs Mbuyazi would like to see me. CHAIRPERSON On your off day you went to Mrs Mbuyazi? MR SHANGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, what is the next thing of significance that happened? Is Mrs Mbuyazi present here? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON Hold it. Is Mrs Mbuyazi represented as an implicated person by somebody? MS WILLIAMS Yes, Mr Chairman, I am representing Mrs Mbuyazi. CHAIRPERSON Is she here? MS WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON Hold it, hold it. Yes. MR SHANGASE What must I say now? CHAIRPERSON She said to you that the right person was still alive. What happened after that? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON Did you tell the Court in your trial about what Mrs Mbuyazi said about the killing of these people? MR SHANGASE No, I did not say that to the Court. CHAIRPERSON Did anything of any significance happen after you talked to her? MR SHANGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON What was that? MR SHANGASE She asked if the car was already thrown away or abandoned. CHAIRPERSON And did you know what had happened to the car at that stage? MR SHANGASE No, I did not know then. CHAIRPERSON So what did you tell her? MR SHANGASE I told her that I think yes, it has been thrown away because I went to check on it and it was no longer there and it went without saying that it was already abandoned or thrown away. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Is that all that happened? MR SHANGASE Yes. CHAIRPERSON When were you arrested? MR SHANGASE I think after three weeks and maybe two days, three weeks two days after this incident. CHAIRPERSON Why were you arrested? MR SHANGASE When Captain Ndlovu came he told me that I am implicated in this case of murder and the car. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION PRINCE BHEKISISA SHANGASE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Did you have any further dealings with the car or any part of the car after that incident? MR SHANGASE Yes, I saw the car when I was arrested. CHAIRPERSON My question was whether you had anything to do further with the car or any part of the car. MR SHANGASE No, I never used the car. CHAIRPERSON Did people say that they saw you driving the car? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether Ben Mlambo had anything to do with the car after that incident? MR SHANGASE CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Samuel are there any questions you wish to put? MR SAMUEL Yes, just one question Mr Chairperson. Mr Shangase at the time of this incident, did you belong to any political party? MR SHANGASE Yes, I was a member of IFP. MR SAMUEL Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL CHAIRPERSON Counsel that are appearing for implicated persons, are any of your clients implicated so far? MS WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON On behalf of? MS WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON MS WILLIAMS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Certainly you may put those questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS WILLIAMS Mr Shangase, when you had the alleged conversation between Ntlhanganepo and yourself regarding Mrs Mbuyazi wanting to see you, was anybody else present? Can you just confirm that there was nobody else present at that conversation. MR SHANGASE Yes, someone was present. MS WILLIAMS Who was present? MR SHANGASE Bosani Ndlovu. MS WILLIAMS And who is Mr Ndlovu? MR SHANGASE MS WILLIAMS Mr Shangase, when you had the conversation with Mrs Mbuyazi, was anyone else present when that conversation took place? MS WILLIAMS No, no one. MS WILLIAMS NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS WILLIAMS MR WILLS Mbambo. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS MTANGA I have no questions Chairperson on behalf of the victims. CHAIRPERSON Are you calling any further evidence Mr Samuel? MR SAMUEL No further evidence Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much, you are excused. You can go down. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Samuel. MR SAMUEL Mr Chairman, except to state that it has been proved that the applicant is a member of the IFP, unfortunately the circumstances are, based on the evidence that was led before this Commission, I am unable to take this matter any further than what it has gone so far. In the circumstances I leave the matter in the hands of the Honourable Commission. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON You have no comment? MS MTANGA No Chairperson. MS WILLIAMS CHAIRPERSON Let me just take all that please. Yes. MS WILLIAMS But that she has instructed me to advise the Commission that she had no involvement with the murder of Mr Zungu. That is all I have to say. MR WILLS Mr Chairperson, just for the record as well. Mr Mbambo, whom I represent, confirms the contents of the Affidavit which appear at pages 60 to 61 and the handwritten version 62 to 64 of the record. Basically Mr Chairperson what that means is that whilst he was not implicated in the evidence in the bundle, he admits having given two firearms to Ntanganepo Mtengwa and it seems that these firearms were used in this incident. CHAIRPERSON That has nothing to do with the firearm that was in the possession of the Applicant. MR WILLS CHAIRPERSON MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Is he hers? MS MTANGA Yes he is. CHAIRPERSON Mr Zungu, will you please just come forward? What are your names Mr Zungu? MR ZUNGU INTERPRETER MR ZUNGU My name is Nkosinathi CHAIRPERSON Could you spell your name please? MR ZUNGU Nkosinathi CHAIRPERSON Other names? MR ZUNGU Zungu surname. CHAIRPERSON Was the deceased your brother? MR ZUNGU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Your younger brother or older brother? MR ZUNGU My younger brother. CHAIRPERSON Was he married? MR ZUNGU He was not married. CHAIRPERSON Was there anybody who was dependent on him at the time? MR ZUNGU He had a child and his parents to take care of. CHAIRPERSON How old is this child? MR ZUNGU 11 years old. CHAIRPERSON Does this child live now with whom? With his grandparents? With your parents? MR ZUNGU Yes, with my parents. CHAIRPERSON And what is the address where your parents and this child live? MR ZUNGU P O Box 699 Eshowe CHAIRPERSON If you can get any physical address, do so. MS MTANGA Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON If you can get a physical address, this is a P O Box. MS MTANGA Right, I will do so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Zungu. You are excused. We have come to the end of this session of meetings of the Amnesty Committee. The Committee will rise. HEARING ADJOURNS