amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-01 PRETORIA 6 J H TAIT AM 3922/96 MURDER OF CHAND FAMILY https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53411&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9905240623_pre_990601pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Have you decided gentlemen ...(indistinct) MR BOOYENS Mr Tait, Mr Chairman. May we just move to there. J H TAIT (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, the Committee would have noticed that there are in fact two applications. I'm referring to the one starting at page 85, that is the later one. Mr Tait, you have already given evidence during the Komatiepoort hearing. We see your background, which is on page 85 to page 88. Do you confirm the content and correctness thereof, in conjunction with what you've stated during the Komatiepoort hearing, is that correct? MR TAIT Yes, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS You are applying for your share in the death of persons, six persons and the explosion of a house in Botswana which housed alleged collaborators of the PAC. MR TAIT Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And while we all said that it was in early 1990, that this incident occurred, we are all in agreement that it was the 21st of April, is that correct? MR TAIT Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS During 1990, as you can see on your application, page 88, you were present at a roadblock where four Askaris were arrested, who later found themselves at Vlakplaas. MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS At a later stage - this date of 1990, is this correct, are you sure? - the date upon which the four Askaris were arrested. MR TAIT I'm not certain of that date, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Then on page 89, you mention the order that you received from Colonel de Kock, is it correct as Mr Ras has stated, that you had very short notice? MR TAIT Correct. MR BOOYENS And what was the motivation behind the operation that was given to you, why was the house supposed to be attacked? MR TAIT Chairperson, we were told that this house was being used as a transit house, where PAC members who were going to infiltrate or ex-filtrate the country would stay overnight and that the persons living there were involved in bringing these people into the country. MR BOOYENS Did you have any information about DCC, the Directorate for Covert Collections involvement in this matter, and that Mr Chand was an informer for DCC? MR TAIT No, I had no such information. MR BOOYENS So according to you they were persons who collaborated in assisting PAC members in entering the country? MR TAIT That's correct. MR BOOYENS And that was sufficient reason for you to participate in such an operation, to stop this insurgency? MR TAIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS Then the second paragraph, page 89, there is one error, is that correct? You refer to Snor Vermeulen who was present during the operation, is that correct that you made an error? MR TAIT Yes, it is incorrect. MR BOOYENS Can you briefly tell us why you thought he was involved? MR TAIT According to what I could infer, Chairperson, I knew that when it came to explosives and demolitions, Snor usually assisted and because the house was destroyed by means of explosives, I may have thought that it was him that was involved in this. MR BOOYENS So you are satisfied then that the other persons whose names are mentioned there were involved in the operation? MR TAIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS You have heard the evidence of Mr Ras and Mr de Kock regarding the execution of the operation, that you stayed on the farm, that you went to the border and that you crossed the border on foot and went to the Chand house. MR TAIT That's correct. MR BOOYENS And also with regard to how the operation was executed and what took place there? MR TAIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS What were your instructions, what were you supposed to on the premises? MR TAIT My instructions were that I had to ensure that nobody from the external buildings interfered with this operation. From where I was however, I couldn't see any external buildings and I myself penetrated the building from the front. MR BOOYENS I think one of the other applicants mentioned that you - and this is on page 41, there he stated that you kicked the door in, is that correct? This would be Willie Nortje's application, at the bottom of the page "Martiens and John Tait kicked the door in or hit is open with a hammer" Is he correct? MR TAIT That is not correct. MR BOOYENS Was the door already open when you entered the house? MR TAIT That's correct. MR BOOYENS What was your instruction with regard to the persons occupying the house? MR TAIT That all the occupants in the house had to be killed. MR BOOYENS And did you also fire shots at these persons as you have described? MR TAIT Yes, I shot a person. MR BOOYENS Can you briefly tell us, or at least what did you expect to find in the house, did you expect to find people living there or were there any other possibilities? MR TAIT There were definitely other possibilities because it was known that it was a PAC transit house and we expected to find other PAC members who were armed in that house. MR BOOYENS Tell us in your own words what you can recall about what you did in that house. MR TAIT Chairperson, as far as I can recall I entered the house, I went past a room where persons in pyjamas were lying on the floor, I went to the room right next door. As I can recall, Mr Ras and I encountered each other. I saw somebody on a bed. I don't know whether or not he was already dead or whether he had been shot, I fired one shot at him upon which I put my weapon away. MR BOOYENS And after that, although there were silencers on the weapons, you could still hear a feint noise of a gun being shot or fired. MR TAIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS Were any other shots fired within the house? MR TAIT As far as I can recall, I heard other shots being fired, however I cannot say who fired how many shots in whichever room, because everything happened too quickly. MR BOOYENS What was the light like? MR TAIT The light was very limited and we made use of torches in the house. MR BOOYENS Mr Tait, Mr Ras has also stated that he gave you instructions to ensure that there were other persons in the house while he was preparing the explosives. Can you recall such an instruction? MR TAIT I cannot recall it in memory, but I cannot dispute that he would have given such an instruction. MR BOOYENS And this would have been a logical instruction under the circumstances? MR TAIT Yes, that's correct. MR BOOYENS After the operation, did you hear that a total of six ......(end of tape) ... been killed? MR TAIT That's correct. MR BOOYENS And did this question or children and such, with regard to you, did you see anybody who resembled a child or were you in any way concerned that little ones had been shot? MR TAIT No, not according to me, according to me everybody appeared to be adult. MR BOOYENS And you have already discussed this to a certain degree, but your political motivation for your participation in this matter, which appears on page 91, would those be the reasons as set out there, that it was a PAC transit house and that the PAC was involved in an armed struggle with the Republic of South Africa, according to your knowledge? MR TAIT That is correct. MR BOOYENS And according to you, these PAC members who were armed, who came through, were responsible for violence in South Africa and that you as members of the Security Forces were involved in a war against them, is that correct? MR TAIT That's correct. MR BOOYENS And equivocally you were also convinced that the destruction of such a facility would complicate the PAC's activities and contribute to the decrease in violence in South Africa? MR TAIT Yes, that is correct. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR HATTINGH We have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR CORNELIUS Wim Cornelius for Britz and Vermeulen, I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR JANSEN Jansen, on behalf of applicant Ras. No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, Jan Wagener, I have no questions for this applicant. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, du Plessis on behalf of Mentz. I've got two questions, Mr Chairman. Mr Tait, did you ever give an affidavit to the Attorney-General? MR TAIT No, I never, this is my only statement. MR DU PLESSIS If we can use the ordinary language, you never became a state witness? MR TAIT No, never, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Tait, the last question that I would like to ask regarding this incident, can you in any way recall anything more than what you have testified concerning what had been said to you regarding who would be present in the house? MR TAIT Chairperson, what I have testified is what I can remember. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR LAMEY No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY COUNSEL No questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Mr Tait, there's just one aspect I'd like clarity on. You state in your application on page 91, as part of your political objective, that: "The operation was also planned to eliminate any terrorists who would find themselves or be present in that house." Now just a clarifying question, was there a distinction drawn at the time that instructions were given, between exactly who must be killed or was it a blanket instruction that everybody who was found in the house must be killed? MR TAIT As I understood it, it was that anyone who was present in the house had to be killed. MS PATEL Alright. Thank you, Sir. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL MR BOOYENS No re-examination, thanks Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS MR SIBANYONI No questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BOOYENS May Mr Tait be excused from further attendance, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Any objections? I take it he will be available if urgently required? MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON He's not leaving the country? MR BOOYENS No, no, but he's leaving this part of the country most certainly, he's going to a place called "Witelsbos", which I understand you need a very good map if you want to find out where it is. CHAIRPERSON Well if we need him we'll send you to find him. MR BOOYENS Thank you, Mr Chairman. WITNESS EXCUSED