amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-03 PRETORIA 7 DAWID J BRITZ 3745/96 MURDER OF CHAND FAMILY https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53415&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9905240623_pre_990603pt.htm ON RESUMPTION MR CORNELIUS ... attend to the flight arrangements. I'm ready to call the applicant, Britz. Thank you, Sir. DAWID J BRITZ (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Mr Britz, you are an applicant for amnesty and you have completed an application form in terms of Section 20(1)(a) of the Act, timeously handed in at the Head Office of the TRC in Cape Town, is that correct? MR BRITZ That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS In the application which you completed yourself, which is attached in the bundle and has been supplemented by a supplementary application, you have said that at all times you acted in opposition of the communist PAC alliance and the infiltration thereof into the Republic, is that correct? MR BRITZ That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS At the time when this incident took place, the unfortunate attack on the Chand family, you were a Warrant Officer in the service of the South African Police, and we were stationed at Vlakplaas, under the command of Colonel Eugene de Kock, is that correct? MR BRITZ That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS At all times you followed the instructions of Colonel Eugene de Kock to the letter and believed that it had the approval of the higher officers, is that correct? MR BRITZ That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You were a so-called foot-soldier in the service of Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR BRITZ That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You confirm your participation in the evidence of the applicants who have already given evidence, in the sense that you were present at the scene and had assisted Eugene de Kock when he injured his knee, is that correct? MR BRITZ That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Can you briefly please tell the Committee what happened according to you, when you arrived at the Chand house? MR BRITZ We walked in single file. There was a dog. The guard came from out of the house, Colonel de Kock shot him. He stepped back, there was an embankment, he fell and he injured his leg. The weapon that I had I gave to one of my colleagues and I assisted Colonel and I took him away from the scene. MR CORNELIUS Did you that shots were fired at the scene? MR BRITZ Yes, some shots were fired within the premises. MR CORNELIUS Did you shoot any rounds at the scene? MR BRITZ No, I did not. MR CORNELIUS You did not go into the house at any stage? MR BRITZ No, I did not. MR CORNELIUS After the firing had ceased, did you withdraw from the scene along with Eugene de Kock? MR BRITZ Yes, I did. MR CORNELIUS And I understand according to the documents, that you went through a river to the border post. MR BRITZ That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And afterwards you returned to Richards Bay, where the Colonel received medical assistance, is that correct? MR BRITZ That's correct. MR CORNELIUS And the Richards Bay version was the cover-story to protect you, it was an alibi. MR BRITZ That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Is it correct that you always acted covertly in this operation and that specifically you operated on a need-to-know basis, is that correct? MR BRITZ That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS It was not expected of you to question any instruction given to you and the request particulars as to what has to happen? MR BRITZ No. MR CORNELIUS Did you know that you were to attack a PAC transit house and that the instruction was that the people had to be eliminated in the house? MR BRITZ Chairperson, it was mentioned while we were on our way to the premises. MR CORNELIUS But you knew that you would attack an enemy installation? MR BRITZ That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you believe that this was your political objective, you have to carry out your orders and this was your political target? MR BRITZ Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you receive any financial gain for this action? MR BRITZ No. MR CORNELIUS Did you at all times act within the scope of your duty? MR BRITZ Yes, I did. MR CORNELIUS You realise that there were gross human rights violations during this operation. MR BRITZ I understand so, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you at all times act in good faith? MR BRITZ Yes, I did, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you act out of any malice or revenge against the victims? MR BRITZ No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You disclosed all the information that is known to you today? MR BRITZ Yes, I have, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You request amnesty for murder, damage to property, possible delicts which might emanate from these actions, and conspiracy to commit these offences, is that correct? MR BRITZ That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR HATTINGH Hattingh on behalf of de Kock, Chairperson. We have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR LAMEY Lamey on behalf of Willemse, Nortje and Bosch. No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman, Knight on behalf of applicant Ras. No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR KNIGHT MR WAGENER Jan Wagener, Mr Chairman. I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Roelof du Plessis on behalf of Mentz. I have one, maybe two questions, Mr Chairman. Mr Britz, can you remember whether Wouter Mentz was in the backup team? These are the men who walked right at the back in the operation. MR BRITZ As far as I can recall, I cannot recall that he was part of the backup team. MR DU PLESSIS But can you recall or can you not recall? MR BRITZ I cannot recall that he was indeed there. MR DU PLESSIS Did you receive any money for this operation? MR BRITZ I did not receive any money. MR DU PLESSIS Did you receive any money in the period afterwards, a few months afterwards maybe? - not only for this operation, but possibly for a sum bonus. MR BRITZ I did indeed receive some money after another incident, but it had no relevance to this incident, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS But can you recall if you - did you ever receive any bonuses? MR BRITZ I received a bonus after the Nelspruit incident, yes, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Is that the only time when you received a bonus? MR BRITZ That's correct. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS Booyens, Mr Chairman. I've got no questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, Ramula Patel on record. Sir, you say you received a bonus after the Nelspruit incident, were you told specifically that the bonus was for that incident? MR BRITZ Yes, Chairperson, it was Captain Geefers, he approached me and said that Colonel de Kock had said that we have to put in some claims and we would receive money afterwards. MS PATEL And how much did you receive, Sir? MR BRITZ For three months I received R1 000 every time and afterwards they said that we cannot file anymore such claims. MS PATEL Was this the only time that you received a bonus in respect of a specific incident? MR BRITZ That's correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Can you say whether the other members of the team in that specific incident also received bonuses? MR BRITZ I can't. I don't know if they received the same amount of money that I had, and I don't know - I cannot say anything to that. MS PATEL Okay. You say that you were asked to file the claim yourself, who decided on the figure to be put on those claims? MR BRITZ Captain Geefers told me that Colonel de Kock gave him an instruction that we should claim for a certain amount of money and we will receive the money. Colonel de Kock never told this to me himself. CHAIRPERSON What was the claim for? You claimed a certain amount of money, was it for board and lodging, for travel, what were you claiming for? MR BRITZ Chairperson, it was a claim which we had filed - yes, like in travelling and accommodation. MS PATEL I take it though that the amount that was claimed would have been in excess of your actual expenses. MR BRITZ No, no, Chairperson, it didn't cost me any money. MS PATEL So it was a fraudulent claim that was put in? MR BRITZ That is correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Do you have any knowledge whether other members present at Vlakplaas would have received bonuses for specific incidents, during the time that Mr de Kock was in charge? MR BRITZ I cannot comment on that, Chairperson, because I was not present when they received money. And if they indeed receive money, I do not know of it. MS PATEL Are you saying Sir, that it wasn't common knowledge that people at Vlakplaas received bonuses? Did you think you were the only person who was receiving a bonus? MR BRITZ No, I wouldn't say so, Chairperson, I believe that certain people received some money, as Ms Patel is saying now, but I don't know how much they received, whether envelopes were given to them or whether they received the money at home. I cannot comment. MS PATEL Alright. Can we just go to this ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Sorry, Ms Patel, are you going to be dealing with something else? Just on this, Mr Britz, when you say you believe other people received some money, who are you talking about? MR BRITZ Certain members who were part of the unit received money. That is what I heard from the evidence, that Mr Mentz received R6 000. I did not have any knowledge of that, I never saw it personally. ADV SANDI That operation you are talking about, where you say that after it was carried out you received some money, did you know before you went out on this operation that you were going to be getting some money? MR BRITZ No, Chairperson, a bonus was not mentioned before the operation. ADV SANDI Thank you. MS PATEL Just finally on that point, Sir, these bonuses that people received at Vlakplaas, generally, were they seen as an incentive to do better? MR BRITZ I would say it was an incentive bonus. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you only learnt that bonuses were paid to people, from the evidence you heard here? MR BRITZ No, Chairperson, money was paid out, but nobody ever knew who would receive what amount of money and money was not involved while the operation was planned. And if the operation was successful the people would receive a bonus, and this was like an incentive bonus so that they would render better service in future. MS PATEL May I proceed Sir? Thank you. Sir, when were you first informed that you would be involved in the Chand operation? MR BRITZ Chairperson, I cannot exactly say that it was a week or two days before the time. Each section had its area which it had to work in. Captain Ras had his area where he worked and we had an operation which we had to launch with him. I cannot say it was two days or one day before the time, or even a week before. MS PATEL Okay. Were you present at the planning meeting at the farm at Zeerust? MR BRITZ Yes, I was there, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Can you recall who briefed everybody there about what the operation would entail? MR BRITZ Captain Ras gave us the briefing there. MS PATEL Okay. What explanation did he give for the operation? MR BRITZ As I have said previously, he worked in the Western Transvaal region and he worked PAC, and it was his operation. It was the PAC house from where infiltrations would take place through to South Africa. MS PATEL Okay. Did he tell you whom you were in all likelihood to expect in the house at the time that the operation would be carried out? MR BRITZ There was a possibility that PAC members would be there who would want to infiltrate the country, but specifically that the people who assisted the members would be there. MS PATEL Were details given as to who these specific people were who would assist the PAC in infiltrating? Can you recall? MR BRITZ I cannot comment on that. I cannot recall. MS PATEL What was the instruction from Mr Ras to the group there? MR BRITZ That everybody in the house had to be eliminated. MS PATEL Okay. And there were no exceptions or qualifications to that instruction? MR BRITZ No, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. Now you've testified as to what your specific role indeed was, can you tell us though what your intended role would have been had Mr de Kock not injured himself on the operation? MR BRITZ It would have been operational, if a person would be in my way I would eliminate him. That was my work. MS PATEL You were present when Mr de Kock shot the guard, not so? MR BRITZ Yes, I was right next to him. MS PATEL Okay. Before I proceed on that point, was it expected that the guard would be there? MR BRITZ Captain Ras said that there would be a guard. Chairperson, we did not plan that the guard would come out there. MS PATEL So what was the planning in respect of the guard specifically? MR BRITZ Chairperson, if the guard did not come out, Colonel de Kock would not have shot him. MS PATEL Okay. So what you're saying ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Would nobody have gone to his house to shoot him? MR BRITZ No, Chairperson, no. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying you would have carried out this operation knowing there was a guard there, presumably an armed guard, and you would have just left him and done nothing about him? MR BRITZ No, Chairperson, I would not say that. I would say that if the guard did not come out, Colonel de Kock would not have shot him and the operation would have taken place without having to shoot the guard. MS PATEL Were you not afraid Sir, that the guard would at least see you and be able to identify you? MR BRITZ It was quite dark. MS PATEL Taking into consideration Sir - in your response, that the idea was to make the scene that it wasn't at least a security, or that it wasn't an operation launched from your side, that it would seem as if PAC or ANC members had carried out the operation and that is why this specific ammunition was used, were you not afraid at least that the guard would be able to say that there were white men who had come in? Regardless of whether it was dark, they'd be able to see whether you were white men or not. Was that not a fear, was that not taken into consideration? MR BRITZ Chairperson, the guard had a dog as well and the dog didn't even bark. The guard came out, I think the dog woke him, and then Colonel de Kock shot him and afterwards he started screaming and then the people went into the house and they shot the people. That is as far as I can recall. MS PATEL Okay. Can - sorry, Honourable Chairperson. From your briefing session, was it told to you specifically that the guard would be there? MR BRITZ Yes, mention was made of a guard there. MS PATEL Did you expect him to be asleep? Was that the expectation at the briefing session, or was that not discussed? MR BRITZ I would not say that we discussed it because it was so late at night we would have believed that the guard would be asleep when we get there. MS PATEL Alright. ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Was there any mention of the guard having a dog? - at the briefing session. MR BRITZ I cannot recall it as such, Chairperson, I cannot recall that there would have been a dog. I know there was a guard, but I did not know he would have had a dog. ADV SANDI You say the dog did not bark, why was it shot? MR BRITZ I can't remember the dog being shot. I know the guard was shot, but I cannot recall that the dog was shot. MS PATEL Was there only - did you see one dog or did you not see a dog at all? MR BRITZ I saw one dog. MS PATEL My instructions are that there were two dogs on the premises. MR BRITZ Chairperson, I only saw one dog, that was the dog that was right opposite the guard's place. MS PATEL Do you know whether the guard was armed or not? MR BRITZ I cannot comment, Chairperson, I don't know if he was armed. MS PATEL But you were present Sir, when he was shot, not so? MR BRITZ Sorry, could you just repeat please. MS PATEL You were present when the guard was shot. MR BRITZ Yes, Chairperson. MS PATEL Would you dispute if I said to you that he was unarmed? MR BRITZ I cannot dispute it, Chairperson, I don't know whether he was armed or not. MS PATEL Okay. Sir, at the time, were you a National Party supporter? MR BRITZ Chairperson, I served the government of the day, and that was the National Party. MS PATEL Okay. At the time of this operation certain other members of the group I would imagine, were IFP supporters at the time. Did this affect this operation in any way? MR BRITZ No, Chairperson. MS PATEL Were you appraised Sir, at any time, of whether the family who was in the house, the Chand family, of their specific involvement with the PAC? MR BRITZ I just performed my duty, Chairperson. I received an instruction and I executed it. MS PATEL My question to you Sir is, at the briefing session were you told what the specific functions or roles of the members of the Chand family was in setting up the infiltration routes, or in the use of that house as a transit house? What were you told? MR BRITZ That's correct, Chairperson. It was told to me that it was a PAC transit house and that is why we had to execute an operation. MS PATEL Were you told to expect family members in the house? MR BRITZ At this moment I cannot recall that, Chairperson. MS PATEL What did you expect to find in the house, Sir? MR BRITZ My instruction was to go with my fellow colleagues to infiltrate the house, to eliminate the people inside the house and to return to the base. I could not foresee who would be there and who would not be there. MS PATEL Are you saying that at the time you embarked on the operation, in your mind it was immaterial who would be found in the house? MR BRITZ Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Just one final thing. My clients have denied that there's an embankment near the fence or the gate where the guard is, can you recall whether there was in fact an embankment there? MR CORNELIUS He just wants the question repeated. MS PATEL Mr de Kock, whilst he was shooting the guard, said that he fell down an embankment near the gate. MR BRITZ Yes. MS PATEL It is denied that there is an embankment at that specific place. What is your comment on that? MR BRITZ Chairperson, I was standing right next to Colonel de Kock, there was an embankment and he stepped back and that is where he hurt his leg. MS PATEL Okay. Was this matter discussed after the operation? MR BRITZ: Which matter? MS PATEL The attack on the Chand house, was there a discussion about it afterwards? MR BRITZ Yes, while we travelled, while we drove on the way to Richards Bay, we discussed it. MS PATEL And after the news reports came out, indicating that there were children killed, was there a discussion after that? MR BRITZ Yes, specifically Willie Nortje, he spoke much about it. MS PATEL Okay. Can you recall what he said? MR BRITZ He was saddened because he did not know that the children or the people who were there were deaf and dumb, because nobody knew beforehand. MS PATEL From your discussions with Mr Nortje, can your recall whether he knew at that time that there were indeed family members besides Mr Chand, who were in the house? MR BRITZ No, I cannot comment, Chairperson, we did not know. CHAIRPERSON You didn't know? Do you say that you didn't know there were children? MS PATEL Sorry Sir, what was your response? I didn't hear that. MR BRITZ No, I didn't know that children would be involved. MS PATEL Did you know that there would be a woman involved? MR BRITZ We didn't know at all which persons would be involved. MS PATEL Alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that you had not been told that there were children there who helped people on their way to the border? MR BRITZ Chairperson, it was not my operation, it was Martiens Ras' operation. He was supposed to have done his homework. He simply said that there were people who had helped these persons to get to the border, these were PAC members, and we didn't know which people would be there. Later we heard that there were children. And to me a child indicates someone of the age of six years or younger. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR CORNELIUS I have no re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS MR SIBANYONI Mr Britz, were there any discussions as to what was supposed to be your reaction if you were surprised by the Botswana Forces, either on your way or back to the border? MR BRITZ Chairperson, it was arranged as such, that is why all those participating in the operation were prepared for any problems. Should it appear on our way back to the border that we would run into the police or a border patrol, then it would simply be part of the operation that they would also be eliminated. MR SIBANYONI Then what about South African Police or Forces on the border, if you were surprised by them? MR BRITZ: That is where Captain Ras was supposed to have done his homework. It would have been arranged that none of the Security Forces or the police would have been patrolling in that environment. MR SIBANYONI In other words, they will deliberately be away from the area where you are going to cross the border? MR BRITZ No, I wouldn't say that they would do that purposefully, but it would have been arranged for them not to be in that vicinity. MR SIBANYONI I notice that you use the word "eliminate" repeatedly, when you refer to killing. Was that the normal understanding or the usual use of the word eliminate, to mean kill? MR BRITZ Ja, that's mine. That's my idea of killing, it's eliminating, it's to counter-attack. MR SIBANYONI That was also the understanding generally among the members of the Security Force? MR BRITZ That's correct, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN Sorry, Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt. With your permission - Jansen again on record, Mr Chairman, I'm just instructed by my attorney, I wasn't here throughout this witness' evidence, but that the issue of what was said by Ras at the briefing beforehand, was not canvassed during chief-examination, but only transpired during re-examination. May I just put some questions to this witness on that basis? Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Britz, would you concede that your memory regarding exactly what was said and in exactly which terms, in reference to the occupants of the house during the briefing session, in reference to those matters your memory may be faulty? MR BRITZ That is possible. MR JANSEN For example, Douw Willemse recalls in his application specifically that mention was made of children, would you accept that? MR BRITZ Yes, I would accept that. MR JANSEN Thus, at best, one must accept your evidence as such that the impression that was left with you was that there wouldn't be any young children? MR BRITZ Yes, that's correct. MR JANSEN Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is that all? MR JANSEN Yes, Mr Chairman, that's all. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN MR CORNELIUS Mr Chairman, may I be excused from further attendance? My clients will be available if necessary. CHAIRPERSON Enjoy your trip. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Question; you won't be here tomorrow? MR CORNELIUS I understood, I thought the hearing would finish today, Mr Chair. So I won't be here tomorrow, if it continues tomorrow. CHAIRPERSON Well I was approached and I thought it had been agreed that we would hear argument tomorrow. You've already put argument? MR CORNELIUS I've put supplementary Heads. It's fully argued in front of the ... CHAIRPERSON So you don't wish to be present at the ...(intervention) MR CORNELIUS Written Heads, Mr Chair. Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Right. Does that complete all the evidence that is to be led? MR LAMEY Mr Chairman, I still have an applicant, Bosch. CHAIRPERSON Oh yes, sorry. Yes we interposed, I forgot. WITNESS EXCUSED