amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-03 PRETORIA 7 I D BOSCH 3765/96 MURDER OF CHAND FAMILY https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53416&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9905240623_pre_990603pt.htm I D BOSCH (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Mr Bosch, you have also applied for amnesty before the Amnesty Committee for various incidents in which you were involved as a member of the Security Police and Vlakplaas, is that correct? MR BOSCH Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. MR LAMEY Is it also correct that you served an initial amnesty application to the Truth Commission, during December 1996, of which the general form was completed by you and that it refers briefly to certain incidents? MR BOSCH That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Are you relying on this first on at all? Mine is almost totally illegible. MR LAMEY It is illegible. I will just perhaps come back to the question of remuneration, just to clarify that, Mr Chairman. After you obtained legal representation, supplementary affidavits were made, which should actually be considered in a greater degree when considering your amnesty applications, is that correct? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR LAMEY In the first form which you completed, in answer to the question about financial gain or any manner of benefit, whether it be financial or otherwise, it would appear that you have stated that you received financial benefits. MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY And when you are requested to explain the nature and scope thereof, you state "Bonus and cash" MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY You also stage generally, that bonuses were paid out from time to time at Vlakplaas. MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Who would have paid these bonuses? MR BOSCH Mr de Kock. MR LAMEY Just to pause at this question for a moment. With regard to the operations that you were involved in, was it ever said beforehand "If you guys do well with this operation there will be a bonus waiting for those of you who earned the merits of this operation"? Was this ever said before the operation? MR BOSCH No. MR LAMEY Can you recall if, after a specific operation, a bonus was paid out which you could relay back to a specific incident? How did this take place? MR BOSCH I recall one incident after an operation in Lesotho, after which Mr de Kock gave us R100 and told us to take ourselves out for supper. MR LAMEY Any other bonuses which were paid, how did this occur? - those of which you know personally. MR BOSCH He would just come to you one day and say "Here's something for you". MR LAMEY Without reference to anything specific? MR BOSCH Without any reference to anything. MR LAMEY Would you then have accepted that it would be for good work that you had done in general? MR BOSCH Yes, that's correct. MR LAMEY You've also applied specifically for amnesty for your involvement in an attack which took place in Botswana, which you've referred to as the Khan family. MR BOSCH That's correct. MR LAMEY You also refer there to March/April 1989. I think it's common cause that firstly the family name was Chand and secondly, the date was April 1990, would you abide by that? MR BOSCH Yes. MR LAMEY You yourself were not a member of the group which would have executed this operation in Botswana, is that correct? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY What was your order and from whom did you receive this order? MR BOSCH I received my instructions from Mr de Kock, he told me to reserve places in Richards Bay for the whole team. We were then to travel down before the time, me, Vermeulen and Botha and then create an alibi there so that if any queries were ever made we could say that they were somewhere in the mountains in Natal. MR LAMEY Did you know at the stage when you received this instruction - was this before the operation? MR BOSCH Yes, that's correct. MR LAMEY Did you know that there were members in a group who would go to Botswana for a specific purpose? MR BOSCH Yes, I knew. MR LAMEY What was the purpose, as you understood it, when the order was made known to you or when you became involved? MR BOSCH I knew that there was a cross-border operation and that I was supposed to create an alibi for the rest of the members. MR LAMEY May I ask you whether you knew specifically at that stage with reference to which facility it was, or what the target was? MR BOSCH I knew or I was informed that it was a transit house which was allowing ANC or PAC terrorists at that stage, to come through to the RSA. MR LAMEY You refer to ANC/PAC terrorists. MR BOSCH Yes. MR LAMEY So you were not particularly involved in the detail of the operation? MR BOSCH No. MR LAMEY And you didn't know beforehand about any information pertaining to the planning or the execution of this operation? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR LAMEY Did you know that it was about the Khan family? Would you just study page 72, you state that you were aware of this planning surrounding the Khan family and that this was at Vlakplaas. MR BOSCH Yes. MR LAMEY Did you know anything about the role of the Khan family, with regard to PAC or ANC members? MR BOSCH No. MR LAMEY You didn't have direct knowledge? MR BOSCH No. MR LAMEY Very well. You were at Richards Bay all the time during the operation? MR BOSCH Yes. MR LAMEY And then upon reference of Mr Snor Vermeulen, who arrived along with the members there in Richards Bay, what is your recollection? MR BOSCH He was with me. We all travelled down together, although we travelled in separate vehicles. MR LAMEY So he was part of the alibi group? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR LAMEY With regard to the political objective, you state the following "The objective in the cover-up with the elimination of the Khan family in Botswana, was to stop the infiltration of PAC terrorists into the country and to combat insurgency and terrorism in the RSA at that stage." Did you know that it was specifically about a PAC facility? MR BOSCH I would accept that as correct. MR LAMEY Furthermore, with question 10(b) you say that the information at your disposal was that "The particular owner of the house was providing weapons to ANC/PAC members and providing accommodation to them in a house which was being used as a transit house for the PAC members who were infiltrating the country." MR BOSCH That's correct. MR LAMEY You also believed that it was necessary to eliminate this transit house and its occupants in order to prevent that PAC members infiltrate the country? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY If you recall, was there any talk of one person in this transit house who provided this assistance, or was there talk of more than one person? MR BOSCH If I recall, they said that it was a family. MR LAMEY Mr Chairman, this page that I have no referred to is the original page 50. I don't know whether that has been allocated a number, I suggest that it be 73(a), to form part of the bundle. That was the page that was initially omitted from the bundle. Just to ... There was a loose-leaf page which was then later handed up, yes. CHAIRPERSON 73(a). MR LAMEY Yes. Thank you, Mr Chairman. With regard to the questions 10(c) and (d) in respect of financial gain with regard to this operation, you say that you gained nothing. MR BOSCH I gained nothing, no financial reward. MR LAMEY Regarding the order or approval, you say that this operation was prepared under the leadership of Eugene de Kock. MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY Then if we study page 74, that would be the final page of your supplementary amnesty application, which was signed in Pretoria on the 28th of August 1997, there is a general paragraph in which you say that you would like to state that you cannot recall the abovementioned events, due to the long passage of time since these events took place. You say that some of the aforementioned facts may be hearsay due to the elapse of time. You say that since these events have taken place you also tried to forget these matters and to rid yourself of the memory of these events. MR BOSCH That is correct. MR LAMEY We can assume that the reason for that is that these events are not things that you would like to recall. MR BOSCH That's correct. MR LAMEY Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the evidence-in-chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY MR HATTINGH Hattingh for de Kock, Mr Chairman. No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR JANSEN Mr Chairman, Jansen on behalf of Ras. No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener, Mr Chairman. I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Roelof du Plessis on behalf on Mentz. Mr Bosch, you are the last one standing so I would just like to ask you a few questions regarding this issue of bonuses, because Mr de Kock gave evidence about it and I would just like to rectify the perspective regarding this matter. Am I correct when I say that these bonuses were never promised before an operation? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And no operation took place as a result of a promised bonus? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR DU PLESSIS And am I correct in saying that this would not have been the general approach at Vlakplaas, that one would volunteer to go on an operation because one wanted a bonus? MR BOSCH That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS This was simply something which was part of your employment package? MR BOSCH Yes, that's correct. MR DU PLESSIS And nobody at Vlakplaas executed operations for the sake of a bonus? MR BOSCH That's correct. MR DU PLESSIS And may I ask you, Mr Nortje was basically Mr de Kock's confidant? MR BOSCH Yes, that's correct. MR DU PLESSIS And he was also actually in a position of command even though he was an HOD because he conveyed many of Mr de Kock's commands and also gave orders in situations where there were persons occupying higher ranks? MR BOSCH Yes, he would have conveyed messages, that's correct. MR DU PLESSIS And would you dispute the evidence of Mr Mentz, that Mr Nortje gave him an envelope with money in? MR BOSCH I cannot dispute this, I cannot find it strange. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR BOOYENS Booyens, no questions thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Ramula Patel on record. Sir, can you tell us who briefed you about this operation, was it Mr de Kock only? MR BOSCH Mr de Kock briefed me, Mr Chairman. MS PATEL Okay. How long before the incident had occurred were you briefed? MR BOSCH Mr de Kock briefed me, Mr Chairman. MR BOSCH If I recall correctly, it was approximately four to five days before the time because I had to make hotel reservations and I had to find place somewhere. MS PATEL You've stated in your application, on page 23, you've made reference to weapons ...(intervention) MR LAMEY Sorry, which page? MS PATEL 73, paragraph 10(b). MR BOSCH That's correct. MS PATEL You state here that according to the information given to you I would imagine, that Mr Chand was responsible for supplying weapons. MR BOSCH Chairperson, that is what I heard after the time. I cannot say that it was correct, but I knew that there were people and weapons coming into the country. MS PATEL Are you saying that it doesn't relate to this specific incident? MR BOSCH Yes, it has bearing on this incident. MS PATEL Okay. And who did you hear this from? MR BOSCH Somebody at the farm must have told me after the time. MS PATEL Okay, so this is not information at your disposal prior to the operation? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MS PATEL But you can't recall you said that to you? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. Can you explain why you mention - well you've mentioned them in the alternative, you mention both the ANC and the PAC. MR BOSCH When I wrote this affidavit I wasn't certain whether it was ANC or PAC persons because I didn't have anybody to confirm or deny this for me, I was completely on my own. MS PATEL Were you privy to any discussions about this operation after it had been finalised? MR BOSCH Do you mean in the final form after the operation or before the operation? MS PATEL Yes, after ... MR BOSCH Yes, after the operation when we were all at Richards Bay, everybody was talking among themselves and you heard a few things, but it wasn't a case of asking specific questions. MS PATEL And after the newspaper reports came out saying that there were children involved in the incident, did this come to your attention? MR BOSCH Yes, it did come to my attention. MS PATEL Did you discuss it with Mr de Kock at any stage? MR BOSCH No, I did not. MS PATEL Why not? MR BOSCH Because I wasn't actually involved in the operation, I simply organised the alibi. MS PATEL Okay. You've stated in your application that the planning was around the entire - as you've stated it in your application, page 73, the Khan family, is that how Mr de Kock would have said it to you or is this just the way you phrased it, given whatever information you had after the incident? MR BOSCH That's correct, after the incident. MS PATEL Okay. So, the question of whether it was the Khan family or Mr Chand himself, is not information that you had at the time? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay, thank you. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR LAMEY No re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY MR SIBANYONI No questions, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI No questions, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Do you know if bonuses were paid to other members of the Police Force? MR BOSCH Except Vlakplaas? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BOSCH No, I have no such knowledge, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Because I think one of the other applicants talks of it, but you have no knowledge of it? MR BOSCH No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAMEY Can the applicant be excused, Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON: Certainly. MR LAMEY Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR LAMEY That concludes my applicants, Mr Chairman, and the evidence on their behalf. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. What other evidence is there? It has been suggested to me that we should commence argument tomorrow morning. I see nods there, nods there, no objection. What time gentlemen and Ms Patel? MS PATEL May I suggest 9 o'clock, Honourable Chairperson? MR LAMEY 9 o'clock I think will be fine, Mr Chairman. MR DU PLESSIS No, they asked me very nicely, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Oh. They've managed to persuade you at last, have they? Very well, 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS