amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-12-14 PRETORIA 11 LEON FLORES AM 4361/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53423&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9905240623_pre_990609pt.htm MR CORNELIUS Thank you Mr Chair, I call Leon Flores. LEON FLORES (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Flores you have prepared your application in terms of the Act for your participation in the death of Johannes Mabotha, is that correct? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Your application has been filled in on the prescribed form and has been handed in within the period of twelve months after the proclamation? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS At times of this incident you were a sergeant in the service of the South African Police at Vlakplaas under the command of Eugene de Kock? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS At that stage how long had you been with the unit, can you recall? MR FLORES Two and a half years. MR CORNELIUS Upon this particular day, who gave you the order to participate in the operation? MR FLORES Colonel de Kock. MR CORNELIUS What was the order? MR FLORES The order was that Warrant Officer Britz and Sergeant van Niekerk and I were to go to some or other police station on the Rand. MR CORNELIUS Did it appear to be the police station at De Deur at a later stage? MR FLORES Yes that is how I understood it. MR CORNELIUS And what was the objective? MR FLORES The objective and the instruction was to pick up a person who was unknown to me at that time and to transport him to a certain place. MR CORNELIUS Did you understand that this was an askari that you had to pick up? MR FLORES Yes. MR CORNELIUS Was the name Johannes Mabotha mentioned? MR FLORES I cannot recall whether it was mentioned at that time or stage but it later became known to me that it was Johannes Mabotha. MR CORNELIUS Can you tell the Committee what happened next that you departed and then? MR FLORES Briefly, we went to the police station where we picked up this person, this Mr Mabotha. MR CORNELIUS Might I just assist you here? Before that, was there any meeting concerning three vehicles? MR FLORES Yes I can vaguely recall something like that. MR CORNELIUS Did you participate in the discussion which took place there before you went to the police station? MR FLORES No. MR CORNELIUS Did you disembark from the vehicle or did you remain inside the vehicle? MR FLORES No, I remained inside the vehicle. MR CORNELIUS Very well. Can you recall who were all present on the scene or not? MR FLORES Would that be at the vehicle? MR CORNELIUS Yes, before you went to the police station. MR FLORES I cannot recall precisely who was present, I know that Mr Britz who drove our vehicle who drove our vehicle climbed out of the vehicle and joined the group. MR CORNELIUS But you did not climb out? MR FLORES No I didn't. MR CORNELIUS Evidence was also given that at a stage you, Mr Britz and Mr van Niekerk, you sat in the passenger seat in front and Van Niekerk sat at the back and Britz drove? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS That the three of you moved past the De Deur police station and stopped 200 metres away from the police station where you took observation? MR FLORES Yes, vaguely that might be correct. MR CORNELIUS What did you observe? CHAIRPERSON Should he give his evidence as to what he recollects rather than you putting to him which you say happened? MR CORNELIUS I'll rephrase it, thank you Mr Chair. Can you recall that the police station was put under observation? MR FLORES No. MR CORNELIUS What can you recall regarding what took place? MR FLORES I can recall that Mr Britz arrived with Mr Mabotha and put him in our vehicle and from there we departed. MR CORNELIUS Can you recall which vehicle you drove? MR FLORES We travelled in a Toyota Landcruiser Station Wagon. MR CORNELIUS And while you were driving what took place? MR FLORES I can't recall the exact time of us being on the road but at a certain stage when another vehicle passed us Van Niekerk and I placed Mabotha under pressure and we cuffed him. MR CORNELIUS You refer to another vehicle, which vehicle was this? MR FLORES This was the vehicle in which Colonel de Kock and Mr Mentz were travelling. MR CORNELIUS I see and you then overwhelmed Johannes Mabotha and you handcuffed him? MR FLORES Yes. MR CORNELIUS And then? MR FLORES According to my knowledge after this took place I assume Mr Britz signalled to the vehicle ahead and both vehicles came to a stop. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR FLORES If I recall correctly, Mr de Kock approached us and mentioned something to Mr Mabotha briefly then walked back to the vehicle and we departed once more. MR CORNELIUS In your application you say that he said: "Do you think you're clever?" to Mabotha. MR FLORES It is possibly so but it was something sarcastic, if I recall correctly. MR CORNELIUS I see that you are struggling to remember many of these details, is this due to the lapse of time? MR FLORES Yes Chairperson, ten years is a long time. MR CORNELIUS You then drove with Mabotha who was handcuffed. Where to? MR FLORES We were on our way to Penge Mine as I understood later in the vehicle. MR CORNELIUS What happened there? MR FLORES Upon our arrival there we saw Mr Snyman and Mr Vermeulen there. We then climbed out of the vehicle and joined them. MR CORNELIUS In your application you state that there was a dinner or a meal. Was there any such meal at that point or did this take place later in the evening? MR FLORES I know that we had a braai, whether this was before or after the incident I can't recall but I know that we had a meal there. It is possible that it is after the time. MR CORNELIUS Were you present when Mabotha was interrogated? MR FLORES No, not at all. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR FLORES After Mr de Kock had spoken to Mr Mabotha, we went back to the vehicles and drove some distance away from where we had been. MR CORNELIUS You then drove to the quarry? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS What happened next? MR FLORES We then climbed out and moved down to the bottom of the quarry hole. As I recall, if this is correct, Mr de Kock asked me to return so that I could fetch his pistol in the vehicle which he had left behind. I did so. MR CORNELIUS Mr de Kock has denied this in his evidence, do you have anything to say about that? MR FLORES It may be that I could be confusing this with another incident but I'm under the impression that I went to fetch a weapon but I could be incorrect. MR CORNELIUS What happened in the quarry? MR FLORES At that stage I didn't know what the others were doing but I stood with Mr de Kock and Mr Mabotha at that stage. While Mr de Kock was speaking to Mr Mabotha, he lifted his hand and fired two shots at Mr Mabotha which hit him in his upper chest. MR CORNELIUS He then died? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS And what happened next? MR FLORES I removed the cuffs from him and went back to the vehicles. MR CORNELIUS So you then left the quarry? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS And you don't know what else happened at the bottom of the quarry with regard to explosives and so forth? MR FLORES After the time I heard what they had done but I was not present when the incident developed further and they acted further. MR CORNELIUS It is common cause then that shots were fired to provide cover and that the explosives were used to destroy the body? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Did you remain there until the following morning or did you leave later on. MR FLORES A short while thereafter whether we braaied after the time we left with Mr Mentz and Mr de Kock. MR CORNELIUS Did you consume any liquor before the operation? MR FLORES No, not at all. MR CORNELIUS And after the operation? MR FLORES Yes it is possible that we may have had a beer but I can't remember it precisely as that. MR CORNELIUS Were you aware that the allegation was that Johannes Mabotha had been askari who had turned back to the ANC? MR FLORES Yes this was brought to my attention. MR CORNELIUS Did you regard this as a dangerous situation when an askari turned back? MR FLORES Yes definitely. MR CORNELIUS Would this have jeopardised the position of the security forces and those members at Vlakplaas? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Did you put any questions about the previous interrogation or torture of Mabotha? MR FLORES No not at all. MR CORNELIUS Did you believe that your action would help to prevent the total onslaught against the republic by the SACP/ANC Alliance and the PAC? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS You acted bona fide in the execution of your orders from Mr de Kock with regard to this particular objective? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS Did you receive any bonuses or personal advantage or benefit from this action? MR FLORES No not at all. MR CORNELIUS Did you have any feelings of malice or vengeance towards Mr Mabotha? MR FLORES No not at all. MR CORNELIUS You were the so-called foot soldier, the sergeant who carried out the instructions of officers of higher rank? MR FLORES Yes that is correct. MR CORNELIUS What would have happened if you did not execute your orders? MR FLORES Personally I believe that I would have been alienated by my other officers and that I would have posed a problem or a danger to the unit if I did not carry out my duties due to the fact that I possessed a great deal of knowledge about the unit. MR CORNELIUS You are requesting amnesty in the submission that I have given to the Committee with regard to the offences that you have committed? MR FLORES That is correct. MR CORNELIUS It might be an appropriate time for the tea adjournment I see, Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CHAIRPERSON We'll take a short adjournment. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record. Mr Flores, regarding the incident I do not want to pose too many questions to you but except for asking you, you said you left along with Mr de Kock and Mr Mentz from Penge Mine back to Pretoria is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Who drove the vehicle? MR FLORES If I recall correctly it was Mr Mentz. MR HATTINGH And can you recall whether he had any trouble driving the vehicle because of the fact that he might have been under the influence of alcohol? MR FLORES No, not at all. MR HATTINGH Very well, a few other aspects Mr Flores, Mr de Kock said at some stage that he helped you after you were involved with an international incident and national intelligence and your post that you had with national intelligence you lost, do you know this? MR FLORES Yes but it was with DCC, I remember that. MR HATTINGH Did you work with them after you were attached to Vlakplaas? MR FLORES That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then you were involved in some incident abroad and this is why you lost your post? MR FLORES That is correct. MR HATTINGH And you had no income afterwards? MR FLORES That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did Mr de Kock then assist you financially? MR FLORES He did Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Do you know where he got the money from? MR FLORES It came from State funds and that is the only thing I know. MR HATTINGH Do you know who authorised it or whether it was authorised at all? MR FLORES I don't know at all, I don't know who authorised it Chairperson. MR HATTINGH A final aspect, you were involved in the gruesome killing of a fellow human being and the destruction of his body. How did you feel about this afterwards? MR FLORES No pleasant Chairperson, definitely not pleasant, this is not something that one could feel good about. MR HATTINGH Were you also involved with other incidents that were unpleasant? MR FLORES That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH On your way back from Penge Mine could you pass judgement by what you observed or what Mr de Kock said to you as to how he felt about the situation? MR FLORES Mr de Kock was withdrawn and quiet after this incident, I would say that he would not have felt good after this, nobody would have felt good after such an incident, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You did not brag about it or was cold towards it? MR FLORES Definitely not Chairperson. MR HATTINGH I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR LAMEY Lamey on behalf of Klopper, no questions Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Roelof du Plessis on behalf of Wouter Mentz, Mr Chairman, a few questions. Mr Flores, Mabotha was cuffed with handcuffs or his hands were handcuffed when you arrived at Penge Mine? MR FLORES That is correct, Chairperson, it was already so. MR DU PLESSIS And Mr Mentz' evidence was that he was tied to a pole? MR FLORES That is not right Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Are you saying that is wrong? MR FLORES Yes. MR DU PLESSIS And why do you say so? MR FLORES Because I fetched Mr Mabotha from the vehicle and I left him at one of the walls of the ruins there. MR DU PLESSIS You were with him all the time? MR FLORES Not all the time, I left from there and I went to sit at the fire with the other people. MR DU PLESSIS Was he at this one place before he was taken to the mine where he was shot? MR FLORES That is correct, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Tell me Mr Flores, did you consume liquor after the operation? MR FLORES That's possible that I may have enjoyed a beer, I don't remember. MR DU PLESSIS You can't remember? MR FLORES That is correct, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And in other words it's possible that Mr Mentz might have had something to drink afterwards? MR FLORES The possibility does exist Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Were you in the company of Mr Mentz all the time? MR FLORES Not all the time. MR DU PLESSIS Before the operation or before the shooting of Mr Mabotha? MR FLORES Please repeat? MR DU PLESSIS Were you in the presence all the time before Mr Mabotha was shot? MR FLORES Not at all Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS So if Mr Mentz said that he consumed liquor you cannot dispute it? MR FLORES No I cannot Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Hattingh had asked you as to who drove the vehicle on the way back to Pretoria from Penge Mine and you said it was Mr Mentz? MR FLORES I speak under correction. MR DU PLESSIS Are you not sure? MR FLORES No I'm unsure whether he drove the vehicle. MR DU PLESSIS So you cannot specifically recall that? MR FLORES No I can't Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS CHAIRPERSON Was it you, could it have been you? MR DU PLESSIS That drove? Not at all. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, Johan Wagener, I've got no questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you Mr Chairman, Rossouw. Mr Flores, in your evidence in chief it seems as if your memory with regard to the time that you left from Vlakplaas and went back after you were at Penge Mine is your memory very sure or is there some vagueness with regard to any stage during this operation? MR FLORES There are some things Chairperson that I recall vaguely. MR ROSSOUW But one expects that after such a long lapse of time? MR FLORES Yes. MR ROSSOUW When you departed from Vlakplaas to the police station on the East Rand at De Deur did you know at that stage that you would pick up Mabotha there? MR FLORES It was mentioned to me in the vehicle Chairperson that we will pick up a former askari and I would lie if I say if the name was mentioned Mabotha. MR ROSSOUW And tell me, did you know at that stage when you departed from Vlakplaas that you would take him to Penge Mine? MR FLORES When I left the farm, no, not at that stage. MR ROSSOUW When did you hear that he had to be taken to Penge Mine? MR FLORES En route from the farm to the unknown station at that stage on the East Rand. MR ROSSOUW Can you recall how you heard this and who told you? MR FLORES Warrant Officer Britz told me. MR ROSSOUW Do you recall that you might have stopped somewhere before you arrived at the police station? MR FLORES I cannot remember anything like that Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And then you said that what you can remember is that you stopped outside the police station and that Mr Britz brought the askari to the vehicle? MR FLORES That is what I said. MR ROSSOUW Did you remain in the vehicle? MR FLORES Yes Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Did you see whether Mr van Niekerk climbed out of the vehicle? MR FLORES If my memory serves me correctly Mr van Niekerk remained in the vehicle with me. MR ROSSOUW So according to you there was no discussion between him and another member of the security branch outside the vehicle? MR FLORES I cannot confirm that. MR ROSSOUW Are you saying it is not so or are you not sure? MR FLORES I'm not sure Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Let me ask you in this way, in your statement on page 196 at the top you say that Mr Vermeulen and Mr Snyman went ahead to Penge Mine. Did you state it there in the light of retrospect after you completed the application or was it your knowledge when you departed from Vlakplaas? MR FLORES As I heard this was on the way to De Deur. MR ROSSOUW So you did not know that part of the operation? MR FLORES Not at all Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And you also accepted that this askari, if he went back to the ANC and he had returned that he would be a security risk? MR FLORES Definitely. MR ROSSOUW Had you ever heard from anyone that he was involved with shooting incidents where police officers were killed? MR FLORES At that point in time, no Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA J A C Maribana on record. Mr Flores, I just want to find out from you, when you and Mr van Niekerk collected Mr Mabotha, how did he climb into the vehicle in which you were driving? Was he dragged or did he climb in the motor vehicle voluntarily? MR FLORES Voluntarily, Mr Chairperson. MR MARIBANA And as in testifying you indicated that Mr Britz came with Mr Mabotha, is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct. MR MARIBANA Mr Britz told this Honourable Committee yesterday that actually what happened is that Mr Potgieter ordered or told Mr Mabotha to go with you people. What is your comment on that? MR FLORES I wasn't present with that briefing there Mr Chairperson, so I cannot comment on that. MR MARIBANA Isn't it that at that - or let me ask you like this, when Mr Potgieter came with Mr Mabotha towards the motor vehicle, were you not with Mr Britz at that stage? MR FLORES Is that outside the vehicle Mr Chairperson? MR MARIBANA I'm just saying at the time, I'm not sure whether you were outside? MR FLORES I was sitting in the vehicle, Mr Chairperson. MR MARIBANA And if I understand you correctly, Mr Britz was outside the motor vehicle at that stage? MR FLORES That is correct. MR MARIBANA And in your statement on page 196 does this, on the second paragraph "After collecting him we told him that we were going to drop him off at his home." Did Mr Mabotha maybe enquire from you people as to where you are you taking him? MR FLORES He might have but I cannot recall, Mr Chairperson. MR MARIBANA And who talked those words that "we're going to drop you off"? MR FLORES I have no idea Mr Chairperson. I cannot recall. MR MARIBANA And did you know at that stage that Mr Mabotha would be killed? MR FLORES Not at all. MR MARIBANA And now Mr Flores, when you were driving, Mr van Niekerk ...(indistinct) and push Mr Mabotha down, did you know what actually made him to do that? Was there any instruction going to do that or he just started it? MR FLORES When making the statement, Mr Chairperson, I was under the impression that Mr Britz had arranged with us that when as I previously stated when Mr de Kock's vehicle passed us that would be a signal that we should handcuff Mr Mabotha. MR MARIBANA But you were not, if I understand you correctly, you were just speculating here, is that so? MR FLORES That is correct. MR MARIBANA And then before Mr Mabotha ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But that is what happened, isn't it? MR FLORES That is correct. CHAIRPERSON That when the car passed you, you did handcuff him? MR FLORES That is correct, Sir, Mr Chairperson. MR MARIBANA Did he give any resistance when he was handcuffed? MR FLORES At that stage I presume he did because he must have been astonished what is happening now, Mr Chairperson. MR MARIBANA And at that time or when actually did you know that you're heading to the mine with Mr Mabotha ...(indistinct) MR FLORES I beg your pardon, Sir? MR MARIBANA At what stage did you know that you were heading to Penge Mine? After Mr de Kock has passed or I just want to find out that, at what stage actually? MR FLORES At the stage of - I remembered why - I beg your pardon - going to Penge was when we bypassed Middleburg, I knew we were not on our way to Middleburg, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But hadn't you been told that you were going to Penge? MR FLORES Not at all. CHAIRPERSON I thought you said that Britz told you that on the way? MR FLORES At one stage Mr Chairperson, I can't recall but he did mention what was going on to me in the vehicle that was from Vlakplaas to De Deur area. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR FLORES It could have been that he did mention it in that time or that point in time. MR MARIBANA And as from your own testimony that Britz ...(indistinct) to De Kock and both vehicles stopped, what were they doing there at that particular stage, what were they doing? Did maybe they exchanged words or what? MR FLORES If I recollect correctly, Mr Chairperson, when Mr de Kock's vehicle stopped he just exited the vehicle, walked over to our vehicle and made a remark and then climbed back in his vehicle where we followed and both vehicles left. MR MARIBANA Could you hear the remarks from Mr de Kock at that stage? MR FLORES I did state in my statement that if I may refer to it something like "you think you're clever?" I could be mistaken. MR MARIBANA And then now at Penge Mine, you indicated that Mr de Kock started talking to the ANC member, well ...(indistinct). Could you hear their conversation at that stage? MR FLORES I couldn't, Mr Chairperson, couldn't hear any questions put or any answers but you could hear they were talking. MR MARIBANA Will you be maybe in a position to tell this Honourable Committee for how long did the conversation between Mr de Kock and Mabotha took place? MR FLORES If I were to say a time I would be totally fabricating then. MR MARIBANA Now Mr Flores, on question of going back and fetch first a gun, you were saying asked I can't remember by whom, you indicated that you might be confusing this incident with other one, were you ever involved in that type of an incident before? MR FLORES In such a similar incident? MR MARIBANA Uh huh. MR FLORES Not that I can recall, no. MR MARIBANA So one would be correct to say what you are saying here is what transpired on that particular day? MR FLORES To the best of my knowledge Mr Chairperson, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON As I recollect it, what you said you can't remember whether it was this or some other incident or being told by De Kock to go and fetch his gun? MR FLORES I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON When you told us that De Kock said you should go and fetch his gun for him, I think that was when you said you may be mistaken this may have been involved in another incident? MR FLORES That is correct, I did mention that. MR MARIBANA While you were at the quarry did you hear what Mr de Kock was saying to Mr Mabotha at that stage? MR FLORES No Mr Chairperson. MR MARIBANA Thank you Mr Chair, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARIBANA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you Honourable Chairperson, Ramula Patel. You stated in your application that Mabotha was picked up outside the police station yet today you say he was picked up you at a particular point where the three vehicles met? MR CORNELIUS I'm sorry Mr Chair, that wasn't testified. He in fact said that he picked him up outside the police station but not at the point where the three vehicles met. MS PATEL Sorry Honourable Chairperson. Did you pick him up immediately outside of the police station? MR FLORES Chairperson, what do you mean by immediately, I don't? MS PATEL Sorry, exactly outside the police station, was he collected in front of the police station? MR FLORES If I recall correctly, yes. My impression was in front of the police station. Could be a distance away, I'm not sure. I'm not familiar with that area. MS PATEL Do you mean that he could have been collected some distance away from the police station at a point where you would have waited or what are you not clear on? MR FLORES I could have been possible, in the area of the police station but not directly as by the front door of the police station. I cannot say where exactly. MS PATEL Okay when Britz brought him, Mr Mabotha, to you, where did he bring him from? From another vehicle or from out of the police station directly to you? MR FLORES I have no idea, Ma'am. MS PATEL Was Britz the only one who was with Mr Mabotha at that time? MR FLORES There were other gentlemen with him Mr Chairperson, who they were I can't recall. MS PATEL How many others? MR FLORES I have no idea. MS PATEL Okay. When Mr Mabotha got into the vehicle, what was said to him? MR FLORES At that stage when he entered the vehicle nothing was said, we just greeted one another. MS PATEL Did you know him from beforehand? MR FLORES Not at all. MS PATEL Do you know whether he knew anybody else who was in your vehicle at that time? Was there a discussion between people? MR FLORES I doubt it, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. And you say that it was Mr Britz' instruction that he be handcuffed at the point when De Kock passed the vehicle? MR FLORES If I'm not mistaken, that is so, Chairperson. MS PATEL Can you say there was some resistance that was offered at that time? MR FLORES I could say so yes. MS PATEL Could you tell us more clearly what the nature of that resistance was? MR FLORES I think Mr Chairperson any person being offered a lift and being suppressed to be handcuffed, I don't know how one explains resistance. CHAIRPERSON As I understand your evidence, you don't know if there was any resistance or not, you merely presume there would have been? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON While we're on the subject, how far had you driven when this happened? MR FLORES Chairperson, I'm unclear on that. CHAIRPERSON Five minutes, an hour? MR FLORES If I recall correctly, I think I've stated in an hour, could have been less. MS PATEL Okay. You did however state in your evidence in chief that Mr Mabotha at the stage when he was handcuffed was put under pressure. Do you recall that? MR FLORES That is correct. MS PATEL Okay, what was the nature of this pressure? MR FLORES The nature of this pressure referring to now, Mr Chairperson, is when Mr van Niekerk overcame him, that is basically just the normal ...(intervention). MS PATEL What is normal, Sir? MR FLORES I'm trying to think of a good word, ma'am. MS PATEL Okay? MR FLORES Just used - overpowered him with his strength, to sustain him so we could get handcuffs on, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay, would I be correct then that at that point at least Mr Mabotha would have started becoming concerned and worried about what was going on and that he at that stage would have realised that this is not a normal situation, he is not just being taken wherever for training or back to Vlakplaas? MR FLORES I would believe that that's the way he would have felt, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay fine. You say that when you got to Penge Mine you left him at the side of a wall and you then went to join the rest at the fire? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay, was he left alone at that stage? MR FLORES At that stage when I put him against the wall, Mr Chairperson, then Mr de Kock joined him and I returned to the rest of the people. MS PATEL Okay, so Mr de Kock was there almost as soon as you arrived there? MR FLORES No he arrived there, if I can recall correctly, I can't give a time but shortly after us. MS PATEL Okay, fine. Sorry, just to backtrack slightly, you said that you pulled over the vehicle at some stage and at which the comment was made to Mr Mabotha by Mr de Kock, can you tell us what Mr Mabotha's reaction was to that comment? MR FLORES I cannot recall at that stage what his reaction was, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay fine and you say you weren't present at the cross-examination at Penge Mine? MR FLORES Not at all. MS PATEL Well I can't recall whether you've stated this but did you have to drop by from Penge Mine to the quarry where he was eventually shot? MR FLORES Yes I did state that Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay and did Mr Mabotha drive in your vehicle? MR FLORES From what I can recall yes he did. MS PATEL Okay. Who was driving the vehicle? MR FLORES If I'm not mistaken it was Warrant Officer Britz as it was his vehicle. MS PATEL Okay and where were you sitting in the vehicle? MR FLORES It could have been left, front or back but I was in the same vehicle. MS PATEL Okay. Can you tell us what Mr Mabotha's state of mind was at that time? Was he agitated, was he calm, what was the position? MR FLORES I cannot answer that Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Why not? You were in the vehicle, you were present? MR FLORES He never spoke to us Mr Chairperson, I'm not a doctor or something to see what state he was in, with all respect. MS PATEL From your perception of what his condition was at the time, I'm not asking you for an expert opinion, I'm asking you for what your perception was. Did he appear to be calm to you or not? MR FLORES Well I presume he was a bit confused and scared, must be. MS PATEL Okay. He would then have not gotten into the vehicle voluntarily? MR FLORES He did get into the vehicle voluntarily Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. You don't know what was said to him at that stage about where he was being taken? MR FLORES Not at all. MS PATEL Okay. And at the quarry itself, you stated that Mr de Kock was still talking to Mr Mabotha when he shot him, is that correct? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Do you know what was being said? MR FLORES I can't recall what the conversation was or the questions to one another was. MS PATEL Was there any resistance offered by Mr Mabotha at the quarry? MR FLORES Yes Mr Chairperson, at that stage I think I did mention in my statement that obviously Mr Mabotha knew what was going to happen and I can't recall the exact words but he was pleading for his life basically, yes. MS PATEL Was he? Okay, was that the full extent of his resistance, that he was pleading for his life then? MR FLORES That is correct. MS PATEL Okay and what was Mr de Kock's response to that, can you recall? MR FLORES I cannot recall that, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Do you have any idea how long you were and Mr de Kock and Mr Mabotha were in the quarry before Mr Mabotha was shot? MR FLORES I can't think longer than five minutes, I'm speaking under correction but not longer than five minutes. MS PATEL Okay. You've stated in your application that there was a braai being held and that you stated in your evidence to us here today that you might have had a beer afterwards. If my memory serves me correctly, Mr de Kock said that there was no braaing done and there was no alcohol that was had by anybody. What is your comment on that? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, I didn't hear Mr de Kock's evidence. MS PATEL Okay, but you're sure about the fact that there was a braai and people came. MR FLORES I'm sure people had something to eat afterwards if I recollect correctly. MS PATEL And you left with Mr de Kock? MR FLORES That is correct. MS PATEL Afterwards? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. Can you give us an indication, what was Mr - at the time in the quarry and when you were at the vehicle where you stopped and Mr de Kock had come over to pass the comment, can you give us an indication as to what the nature of Mr de Kock's attitude was towards Mr Mabotha? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, excuse me, was that before going into the quarry? MS PATEL No at the point where Mr de Kock came over and made the comment. Can you tell us, you know, in what sense what the tone of the comment was at the vehicle? MR FLORES Sarcastic. MS PATEL Sarcastic, okay. And what was Mr de Kock's attitude at the quarry when they were speaking, was he angry, was he calm, what was the position. Can you tell, can you recall? MR FLORES If I can recall, Mr Chairperson, he was acting very normal, no anger whatsoever. MS PATEL Would that be how you know Mr de Kock? MR FLORES At stages yes. MS PATEL At stages? And at other stages? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, we all have tempers, now it all depends in what scenario we are. MS PATEL Okay. But he wasn't angry at this stage? MR FLORES Not that I can recall Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. You stated that you were at Vlakplaas for two and a half years prior to this incident occurring, is that correct? Did I understand you correctly? MR FLORES No Mr Chairperson. My whole period was two and a half years. MS PATEL Okay, alright, no then I misunderstood you. How long had you been at Vlakplaas before this incident occurred? MR FLORES I'm speaking under correction, I think a year and a half, two years. I'm not sure. MS PATEL Okay and you didn't know Mr Mabotha at all? MR FLORES No, not at all. MS PATEL You didn't recognise him just from appearance either when you saw him? MR FLORES Not at all. MS PATEL Okay did you have any dealings with the askaris at Vlakplaas during your period there? MR FLORES Yes I did Mr Chairperson. MS PATEL Can you perhaps just from your experience tell us in what light they would have seen the need to know principle, do you know whether there were common breaches amongst them on this principle, whether they would have generally discussed things that they shouldn't have been discussing or whether the askari themselves had strictly adhered to the need to know principle? MR FLORES I think everyone at the farm Mr Chairperson was need to know basis. MS PATEL askaris included? MR FLORES Included. MS PATEL Okay, thank you Sir, I have no further questions. MR FLORES Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR CORNELIUS I have no re-examination, thank you Mr Chair. MR SIBANYONI Mr Flores, if there was no incident which was similar to the one at page 9, how then do you confuse the fetching of the pistols? You are saying you confused it with another incident. How is that possible if there was no other similar incident? MR FLORES Mr Chairperson, they've carried it over correctly, if I refer to other incidents where people were so killed and I'd just like to bring to your attention, is that during the giving of my statement, on one particular day I had to do 23 different incidents so I think it's just normal I could have been mistaken or confused with certain incidents. MR SIBANYONI Are you saying there may be another incident where you were requested by Mr de Kock to go and fetch a pistol? MR FLORES There is a possibility yes, Mr Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI To fetch a pistol, to do what with a pistol? MR FLORES Well it depends in what incident such request was offered to me or given to me by Mr de Kock, I cannot recall at this stage. I was under the impression it was at this incident, that's why I mentioned it, Mr Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI When you were asked questions by Mr du Plessis, you said you fetched Mr Mabotha and left him next to a wall or next to ruins. Did he offer any resistance? MR FLORES Not at all Mr Chairperson, not that I can recall. MR SIBANYONI You say obviously Mabotha knew what was going to happen and he was pleading for his life. Was he pleading to Mr de Kock? MR FLORES I would say direct in general he was pleading not to Mr de Kock as such. MR SIBANYONI By pleading he was asking that he should not be killed, his life may be spared? MR FLORES I wouldn't those were the exact words that he was using but he was pleading Mr Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI But Mr de Kock said Mabotha was calm and in fact when he asked him questions Mabotha was just laughing. What is your comment about that? MR FLORES I cannot comment on that, Mr Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI No further questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I think Mr de Kock said that when Mabotha saw the explosives he became alarmed and turned around towards him and that then De Kock shot him. Is it possible that he turned around and pleaded with De Kock? MR FLORES That could be a possibility, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI A question from me, not from the witness. Ms Patel, have we been able to find out about the age of the deceased? How old was the deceased when this thing happened? MS PATEL Well I think the question should be directed at the legal representative, Honourable Chairperson. MR MARIBANA Mr Chair, I've got instructions that he was born in 1958. ADV SANDI Thank you. No questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Now you've told us that you had a braai there, but you're not sure whether it was before or after the incident? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean by a braai? MR FLORES Defining a braai Mr Chairperson is just a piece of meat and then having something to eat, maybe a beer and then ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON It's fresh meat that you take and you grill over a fire? MR FLORES We never took any meat with us as such in our vehicles but there was food there, yes. CHAIRPERSON Where was there food? MR FLORES By the braai. I assume that the people who were there before us, Mr Vermeulen and Snyman did take meat with. CHAIRPERSON Somebody had brought fresh meat to the place where you were going to blow this man up and you had a braai, either before or after you did it? MR FLORES That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you said you may have had a beer? MR FLORES That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So it would appear that you were not all that shocked about what had happened? MR FLORES I was shocked Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But you could braai some meat and drink a beer afterwards? MR FLORES Usually shock Mr Chairperson, with myself, always occurs an hour or two after the time. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR CORNELIUS That is all the applicants I have to present Mr Chair, I think the next would be Mr Lamey, Mr Klopper I think.