amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 2000-12-14 PRETORIA 11 C KLOPPER 3762/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53424&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9905240623_pre_990609pt.htm C KLOPPER (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY May I proceed Mr Chairman? Thank you. Mr Klopper you are an applicant in an amnesty application which emanates from your involvement in an investigation that took place, an interrogation of Mr Mabotha? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY During the proceeding week or weeks we have seen that your were also an applicant in the Komatipoort Incident and we have heard your general evidence with regard to the run up to your amnesty application? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY Just to return to the bundle which has been placed before you, initially you submitted an amnesty application, you completed the prescribed form yourself, that is from page 30 to 38 and in that initial amnesty application you provided summaries regarding various incidents in which you as a member of the security police and specifically Vlakplaas were involved and these incidents to which you have referred are also extracts from evidence which you gave before the Goldstone Commission and which were withdrawn from statements which you made to the investigating team of the Attorney General? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY As such you did not have any thorough statements with you when you initially completed your amnesty application and also not when you compiled the supplementary application? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY Is it also correct that in your initial amnesty application you mentioned offences which were committed among others during your period of service with Vlakplaas and which boiled down to fraud, false presentation with regard to state funds and theft for you would not qualify for amnesty within the scope of the act and this was not repeated later with regard to your supplementary amnesty application? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY Your supplementary amnesty application and the relevant extract with regard to this incident can be found on page 43 up to and including 56 of the paginated bundle? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY Those charges of fraud and theft which have been subjects in the De Kock matter have also been testified by you? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY Just to return to your initial form you mention in paragraph 10 (d) informer fees? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY And then we see on page 39 there is a paragraph 4 which mentions so called informer claims which was served and that the money was divided afterwards by you and De Kock? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR LAMEY The reference to informer fees in the initial application, does this have relevance among others for paragraph 4? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY And this is not something that you are actually requesting amnesty for? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY Thus is it correct then in your introductory paragraph to your supplementary amnesty application paragraph 48 that this does not form part of your amnesty application because you are not qualifying for amnesty for that? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY Then on page 48 up to and including 51 there is a general background of when you joined the police in 1985 and after that you were transferred in '87 to the security branch in Soweto where you were a member of a counter-terrorism unit under the leadership of Grobbelaar? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY And in 1989 you were transferred to Vlakplaas where you were under the command of Eugene de Kock who was at that stage a major? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY That it is common cause that this incident with regard to Mabotha for which you have requested amnesty took place early in 1989? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY What was your rank at that stage? MR KLOPPER I think I was a sergeant or a warrant officer. MR LAMEY One of the two? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR LAMEY How old were you at that stage, early 1989? MR KLOPPER I was either 19 or 20. MR LAMEY You were born in 1966 so that would put you at the age of 22 or 23? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY Just to deal with that swiftly, you were not at Vlakplaas when Mabotha was killed? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY You heard about this later? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY Can you tell us how you came to hear of Mabotha for the first time? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, I was working in Soweto where Jacobse and I received an order from Grobbelaar to join him and Lieutenant du Toit where they were in Marble Hall and they had arrested an MK member. MR LAMEY Were you called to Marble Hall? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY When you were called did you understand that there was an MK member who had been arrested? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY With whom did you depart from Marble Hall? MR KLOPPER With Lieutenant Jacobs. MR LAMEY Was he a member of your unit? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR LAMEY That would be the terrorist training unit which was a part of the Soweto Security Branch? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY And you then went to Marble Hall? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY To the security offices there? MR KLOPPER I'm not entirely certain where it was, but it was in Marble Hall. MR LAMEY Can you recall whether you arrived there in the morning or in the evening? MR KLOPPER The time that I spent there was a day and that very same evening we departed back to Soweto. MR LAMEY Are you saying that you did not spend the night there? MR KLOPPER No I did not. MR LAMEY Who from the Soweto Security Branch was already at Marble Hall when you arrived there, apart from you and Lieutenant Jacobs? MR KLOPPER It was Grobbelaar, Lieutenant du Toit and Warrant Officer van Tonder. MR LAMEY All members of your unit? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR LAMEY Were there also security branch members from Marble Hall? MR KLOPPER Yes, however I cannot recall their names. MR LAMEY When you arrived there you saw the detained person? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR LAMEY Where was he upon your arrival there? MR KLOPPER I cannot recall exactly. MR LAMEY Could it have been at the security branch offices? MR KLOPPER Yes it is possible. MR LAMEY What happened further? Or let me put it this way, according to your knowledge, had he been arrested, this person, let us just speak of Mabotha. It appeared later that it was Johannes Mabotha, had he been arrested? MR KLOPPER Yes, I assume that he had been arrested. He was in the detention of the security branch. MR LAMEY And did anybody else arrive there? MR KLOPPER I cannot recall at exactly which stage but Mr de Kock and Riaan Bellingan also arrived there. MR LAMEY And were you aware that they were from Vlakplaas? MR KLOPPER Yes I knew that they were from Vlakplaas. MR LAMEY What else did you find out about Mabotha? MR KLOPPER At a stage it came to my knowledge that he had been an askari who had defected and that allegedly he had returned to the ANC and he had contact with Winnie Mandela. MR LAMEY Where had he been an askari? MR KLOPPER At Vlakplaas. MR LAMEY Can you recall whether the issue of discussions with tapping devices came to light with regard to Winnie Mandela? MR KLOPPER Yes at a stage mention was made of it, I don't know who spoke of it but the content of the discussion was but that the liaison with Winnie Mandela had been traced by means of tapping the conversations between Mabotha and Mandela. MR LAMEY When you were at the Soweto Security Branch did you know that the telephone conversations of Mrs Mandela were being monitored? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY However you yourself were not a party to this tapping of her conversations between her and specifically Mabotha? MR KLOPPER No. MR LAMEY But you did know about this? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR LAMEY After you had arrived at Marble Hall and you had seen Mabotha there, was he taken to a specific place? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, Mabotha was taken to a farm outside Marble Hall with all the persons who had been present there, all the security officers. MR LAMEY You refer to branch members, do you mean from Soweto? MR KLOPPER Yes and from Marble Hall and from Vlakplaas. MR LAMEY And that would then be De Kock and Bellingan from Vlakplaas? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR LAMEY What happened further at this farm? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, at a stage the interrogation of Mabotha began, interrogation regarding his activities in the ANC in order to extract information from him. MR LAMEY Which specific information did you as members of the Soweto Security Branch want with regard to this person? MR KLOPPER I cannot recall specifically what we were interested in but I can imagine that it would be weapon stockpiling places, safe houses which were used by MK members or possible MK members who were hiding and whether he knew where they were hiding. MR LAMEY So to summarise, you were interested in the movements and identities of other MK members that he may have known of? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY As well as the concealment of weapons and the so called safe houses? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY These safe houses that you have referred to, what houses were these? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, it could have been any house, homes of families who were favourably inclined towards the ANC and infiltrated members who would accommodate these members at their homes or would even conceal weapons in their homes. MR LAMEY So places where weapons were stored or where MK members would be accommodated? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY During the interrogation Mr Mabotha, what was his level of co-operation? What else happened during this interrogation? MR KLOPPER I cannot recall exactly whether or not he gave his full co-operation, the person was assaulted, but I cannot recall exactly what his level of co-operation was if there was any co-operation in any event. MR LAMEY In which manner was he assaulted? MR KLOPPER He was suffocated by means of an inner tube, he was assaulted by means of blows and kicks to his body. At a certain stage Bellingan produced gloves and placed ice in Mr Mabotha's anus. CHAIRPERSON Bellingan? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY I don't know if I heard you correctly, did you also mention that he had been hung upside down? MR KLOPPER At a certain point he was hung upside down and Bellingan produced the ice which was then placed inside his anus. MR LAMEY You say that he wore gloves? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY Did you also participate in this assault? MR KLOPPER Yes I did. With regard to the ice I did not participate in that action. MR LAMEY If you will look at paragraph 5, you state that during the interrogation, Mabotha gave certain information about the identification of cohorts and where weapons could be found? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY Is it your recollection that such information was provided at a certain point? MR KLOPPER Yes. The reason why I would say that is that when we moved back to Soweto or the Soweto environment, we later searched houses that night so I cannot tell you pertinently that such information was actually given but it must have been if we have then gone ahead and searched certain homes. MR LAMEY But today after all this time you cannot recall specific detailed information to that effect, your recollection is that after that you returned to Soweto, that he had made certain identifications so you deduced from that that you must have given some level of co-operation and information? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY How or what time approximately did you return to Soweto? MR KLOPPER I can't recall precisely but what I do remember is that it was at night and Mr Grobbelaar's vehicle lights were not working at a certain point and he drove behind us or with me and Lieutenant Jacobs so that he could follow our lights. MR LAMEY Were there any askaris on the farm at Marble Hall? MR KLOPPER As far as I can recall there were no askaris there, we met them at the Soweto security branch offices. MR LAMEY And do you know whether Mabotha was assaulted at the Soweto security branch by anyone? MR KLOPPER He was detained among the askaris and he was assaulted by some of them but I don't know who these persons were. MR LAMEY And was he taken outside to do any kind of identifications? MR KLOPPER Yes we took him to go and identify certain houses. MR LAMEY Who else from the Soweto security branch were present when this took place? MR KLOPPER The persons who were present at Marble Hall went along on this excursion. MR LAMEY Was Mr Grobbelaar there? MR KLOPPER Yes he was but I cannot remember who of the members from Soweto were also present but the persons who were present at Marble Hall were also present in this instance. MR LAMEY And after those identifications, where was he taken? MR KLOPPER I never again saw Mabotha. MR LAMEY Was he brought back to the offices after you had driven out and taken the identifications, what is your recollection? Was he brought back? MR KLOPPER I cannot recall. MR LAMEY You also mention here that you were not a member of the investigating unit of the Soweto security branch? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY However, you do say that according to your knowledge he was delivered to the investigating team of the Soweto security branch? MR KLOPPER Yes, that is how it worked. We were the field team and we would then arrest the person and deliver him to the investigating team who in their turn would lodge further investigations and charge the person. MR LAMEY And you didn't know what else happened to him during his further detention? MR KLOPPER No, I know nothing further. MR LAMEY During the interrogation and assault there on the farm at Marble Hall was everybody who was present there consistently involved or what was your recollection? MR KLOPPER I cannot recall which persons were there all the time or which of them departed. As far as I can recall Lieutenant Jacobs and I went to purchase food at a certain point and that is what I can recall that for a certain period of time we were not present there. MR LAMEY Can you recall whether Major Grobbelaar was there throughout the time? MR KLOPPER I cannot recall with certainty. MR LAMEY Can you say whether Mabotha as a result of the assaults on him had been injured? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, I cannot recall specifically but when I recall the assault there must have been injuries which were visible. MR LAMEY Was he seriously assaulted? MR KLOPPER Yes, according to my judgement he was. MR LAMEY So you cannot recall in detail what the nature of his nature of his injuries were but as a result of his detention you would automatically assume that he would have visible injuries? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR LAMEY At that time, was it a serious matter when somebody who was an askari member and an MK member, if he once again became involved among the ranks of the ANC? MR KLOPPER Yes, he could have conveyed a great deal of information pertaining to us to them. MR LAMEY And how would such a person be regarded? MR KLOPPER As a traitor. MR LAMEY Mr Klopper, you are applying for amnesty for your participation in the assault on Mr Mabotha, is that correct? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR LAMEY But you maintain you were not a member of any plan or conspiracy to murder Mr Mabotha, you have no knowledge of any decision making process with regard to this? MR KLOPPER No. MR LAMEY The question with regard to the political objective on page 55 over to page 56, as you say that the broad political objective at that stage was to combat the onslaught of the ANC/SACP Alliance? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY And according to you he was an ANC member who had previously been an askari at Vlakplaas and who had turned, as they put it? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR LAMEY And this presented a great risk and danger? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY Furthermore you say with regard to your motivation for your involvement that you received an order to go to Marble Hall? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY In retrospect was that order aimed at participating in the interrogation of the subject? MR KLOPPER Yes it was to participate in the interrogation, that is correct. MR LAMEY In paragraph 10 (b) you say as already mentioned Johannes Mabotha was a former askari who had worked at Vlakplaas, he once again made contact with senior persons in the ANC ranks among others Winnie Mandela according to typing which was undertaken. The fact that he rejoined the ANC ranks and along with the information that had had as a result of his involvement as an askari with the security police, held potential dangers. The objective with the interrogation was to obtain further information with regard to co-workers who had been stockpiling locations and the so called safe houses and the idea was to combat the activities of specific MK members? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY You say that normally the ANC members who had been arrested would not give spontaneous co-operation during interrogation and as a result coercion methods such as assault and torture were used in order to obtain information from these persons? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY You also say that your recollection of his behaviour on that day is not specific but what you maintain is that this must have been the reason for the interrogation? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY Due to the fact that he had been an askari and had once again joined the ranks of the ANC, he was regarded as a traitor among the ranks of the security police? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY Then with regard to the order or the approval you say that you were called by Major Grobbelaar who was the commander of your unit and you were a sergeant or a Warrant Officer at that time? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY And during the assault and interrogation of Mabotha, Major Grobbelaar and Major de Kock were in control of the interrogation process? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR LAMEY You also referred to them as having occupied the highest ranks during this interrogation? MR KLOPPER Yes, at the scene of this interrogation. MR LAMEY Mr Chairman, I think that's the evidence in chief, thank you. Just one aspect, you did not receive any additional reward for your involvement in this matter? MR KLOPPER No I didn't. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, Hattingh on behalf of De Kock. Mr Klopper, I see that you have mentioned that I put you under cross-examination for 23 days during the De Kock trial and I can assure you that this will not happen again. It was only after this Mabotha incident that you joined Vlakplaas? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And if I recall correctly, then your involvement in the Mabotha incident and the presence of Mr de Kock gave rise to the fact that you were sent to Vlakplaas? MR KLOPPER Yes, well the first time I met Mr de Kock was during this incident. MR HATTINGH You say in these documents that you were impressed with him and that you regarded it as an honour to join Vlakplaas? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And that you regarded this unit as an elite unit? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH Was this unit ...(inaudible) from the other members of the security branch who did not serve at Vlakplaas? MR KLOPPER Yes, there was a certain element of jealousy. MR HATTINGH I would like to know from you, Mr Klopper, with regard to singular aspects, are you applying for amnesty for the Nelspruit incident? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR HATTINGH And the Sambo incident? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR HATTINGH And the Dirk Coetzee, Bheki Mangene incident? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR HATTINGH Very well, I would just like to examine you in general regarding the background pertaining to the activities at Vlakplaas, I don't know whether I will have this opportunity again. Regarding the Sambo matter, just to give brief information to those persons who are not aware of what happened there, this is where the security branch interrogated a person at Skoormans and this was the incident during which the person who was being interrogated died and assistance was requested from Vlakplaas and you were deployed by Mr de Kock to receive the body, that was in Lichtenburg? MR KLOPPER Yes, it was somewhere in the Eastern Transvaal. MR HATTINGH And from there you took the body to Verdrag, a police training base in the Northern Transvaal? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH This is also where you destroyed the body by means of explosives? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you report to any higher officer and when I refer to higher officers I mean someone like Mr de Kock after this incident? MR KLOPPER Do you mean the Sambo incident? MR HATTINGH Yes. MR KLOPPER As far as I can recall, Colonel du Plessis or General Engelbrecht would be the officers to whom was reported. MR HATTINGH Which of these two did you indicate during the De Kock trial? I think that you indicated Du Plessis' name and I cannot recall whether you mentioned Engelbrecht's name but definitely that of Du Plessis? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR HATTINGH So he was informed regarding the incident? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR HATTINGH Did he appear upset over this, did he admonish you for having been involved in this incident? MR KLOPPER No Chairperson. MR HATTINGH With regard to that incident we heard that afterwards generals and colonels went down to the Skoorman base? MR KLOPPER Yes, there was quite an extensive investigation. MR HATTINGH Very well, in general Mr Klopper, when you became involved in incidents such as the Mabotha incident, what was your impression regarding the higher hierarchy's attitude towards that and by the hierarchy I'm referring to the generals and the commanders at head office. What was your impression and your perception of what their attitude would have been towards this? MR KLOPPER That it had taken place with their approval. MR HATTINGH That it enjoyed their approval? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR HATTINGH Was this the general perception at Vlakplaas? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH And we have repeatedly heard about functions which were held at Vlakplaas during which these generals were present? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you ever hear that anybody particularly from head office had admonished or addressed or attempted to discipline a member of Vlakplaas with regard to matters such as the Mabotha incident or any other incident that you are requesting amnesty for? MR KLOPPER No Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Just in general, we've also heard evidence about false claims which were instituted in order to cover the costs of these functions which were held at Vlakplaas? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you participate in such false claims? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR HATTINGH And were you aware of the fact that these false claims would be used to cover the costs of these functions? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR HATTINGH What was your perception of the knowledge of the guests who were present there, who did they think was paying for this? MR KLOPPER My perception was that they knew what it was for, that it all took place with their approval. MR HATTINGH Can we just get to your involvement with the Soweto security branch with regard to Mr Mabotha? You say you were a member of the field team? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And although you were not involved with the investigation you must have received some information with regard to so called active terror in the area where you worked? MR KLOPPER That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did you receive information about Mrs Winnie Mandela's activities or her so called soccer club's activities or the activities of people who liaised with her? MR KLOPPER Yes at several occasions such information was indeed available. MR HATTINGH Did you ever receive information that persons at her club, there were persons involved who on their own were involved with attacks on police officers? MR KLOPPER I did not personally receive such information but there was hearsay to that effect. MR HATTINGH Information received, did you also work with informers and sources at security branch? MR KLOPPER Yes I did. MR HATTINGH Did you ever receive information from sources but not about Mrs Mandela but about people who were involved with her organisation who were involved with attacks on police? MR KLOPPER Not myself, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH After Mr Mabotha was transferred from Marble Hall to Soweto you say he was questioned by members of amongst others the askari members from Vlakplaas? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH Do you know why the questioning continued? MR KLOPPER I don't know, my personal impression was because it was of revenge because this person was seen as a traitor. MR HATTINGH Do you know whether the members of the Soweto security branch was still involved in his questioning in Soweto after he arrived there? MR KLOPPER I cannot pertinently remember that Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Were you involved? MR KLOPPER No, I was not involved. MR HATTINGH We know that the arrest of Mr Mabotha took place on the 22nd February, if I recall correctly? MR KLOPPER I don't know that specifically, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Well you can accept it as given but we also know that on the 4th April he was according to the stipulations of Section 29, the Act of Internal Security, he was detained, did you know of that? MR KLOPPER No I didn't, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Do you know whether the reason of this lapse of time between his arrest and detention could be ascribed to the fact that they might have given him the opportunity to recuperate from his injuries because of the assaults? MR KLOPPER I don't know Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But you say as far as you can recall he did have visible signs of assaults? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR HATTINGH And this was after the assault at Marble Hall? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And there you say he was further assaulted in Soweto? MR KLOPPER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON The reason for this would have been if it was the persons who were detained in terms of Section 29 were subject to medical examination? MR KLOPPER Yes Chairperson MR HATTINGH And security members of the police during this time were particularly sensitive, I can just not recall when the Biko matter was around but with similar occasions they were very careful to evade criticism that persons who were detained were assaulted? MR KLOPPER That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH This pointing out that Mr Mabotha did that evening, I'm talking about in that evening, did this take place in the evening? MR KLOPPER As far as I know yes, everything took place afterwards in the evening. MR HATTINGH Was this directly after you left from Marble Hall to Soweto? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And did he hesitate when he pointed out these places to you? MR KLOPPER Not that I can recall Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Were these residences? MR KLOPPER Yes Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But were there places where the weapons were hidden? MR KLOPPER Yes as far as I remember he pointed out places where MK members stayed and where weapons were hidden. MR HATTINGH And these houses and premises which he pointed out, was there a search through these places after he pointed them out? MR KLOPPER Yes as far as I know. MR HATTINGH And was there any indication that those persons who lived in those residences were involved there? MR KLOPPER I don't know Chairperson, I don't know if there were any successes. MR HATTINGH Did you not get the impression that he was leading you on a wild goose chase? MR KLOPPER Not that I can recall Chairperson. MR HATTINGH I don't know if you said but let me just check that you said in your application that nothing was found at these places? MR KLOPPER I think that was Major Grobbelaar's statement. I had an impression but I was not sure. MR HATTINGH Was Major Grobbelaar also present? MR KLOPPER Yes he was. MR HATTINGH And if he says in his affidavit that nothing was found would you accept it? MR KLOPPER Yes I would. MR HATTINGH Mr de Kock as commander, Mr Klopper I now know of our previous questioning of you and that you are not favourably inclined towards him, I don't know what your attitude is now but let us forget about your personal differences that you have had, was he a reasonably strict commander? MR KLOPPER If you please tell me what exactly are you trying to say with that? MR HATTINGH Was it a man who did not entertain any nonsense? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And also from the members of his branch? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And he acted strictly towards them? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH So they would also be physically disciplined if they acted in a manner in which he did not like? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And if he gave instructions were these instructions obeyed usually? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH Do you think that people had respect for him as a commander? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And his instructions were not necessarily complied with because they were scared of him but because they had respect for him as well? MR KLOPPER That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And at the same time they also realised that if they did not execute his instructions they would not be in his good books if I can put it as such? MR KLOPPER That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH He would not necessarily hit them or anything in that nature but it would not count in their favour with him as commander if it was known that they were not willing to participate in any operation? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And this would be to the disadvantage of their career? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I wonder if I could request you to take the adjournment now, I would like to take instructions on a few matters before I proceed with my further cross-examination? CHAIRPERSON Very well, we'll now take the adjourn till 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION C KLOPPER (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record. Mr Klopper just a few aspects. When you questioned Mr Mabotha at Marble Hall did you know that he turned back to ANC? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you know that he was a trained MK member? MR KLOPPER That was the information that was given to me. MR HATTINGH Do you know that he had turned once again and took up the arms against the State again? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And that he was trained to sow death and destruction? MR KLOPPER Yes. MR HATTINGH Mr du Toit we know, I forget his rank, Captain and I think he was a Lieutenant, but Lieutenant du Toit took a statement from him, were you present when this statement was taken from him? MR KLOPPER No I wasn't. MR HATTINGH I should have asked Mr Vermeulen about this but maybe you might be of assistance. During Mr de Kock's trial the person who was the prosecutor, Mr Ackerman, told the court that the Attorney General was at liberty to sign a contract with potential witnesses whereby he undertakes not to charge that witness if he gives his co-operation. Doesn't whether a court could give him indemnity or not, can you please tell us if such an undertaking was given to you before you testified against Mr de Kock? MR KLOPPER Yes such an undertaking was given to me. MR HATTINGH That you will not be prosecuted if you co-operated and although the court did not give you indemnity? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And the court, the charges that were laid against Mr de Kock, you received indemnity? MR KLOPPER That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And then with regard to something in your statement, in your evidence in chief your attorney asked you about it, with regard to false claims. Is it correct that at a stage specifically towards the end of Vlakplaas or towards the end of the existence of Vlakplaas' unit false claims were put in by means of confirmation of amongst others of weapon caches? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And other excuses were used that persons might have dealt in falsified American dollars? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And then there were large amounts were paid out as remuneration for the so called information that was received? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH Which would be paid out to the so called source who had given this information? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH But this was never paid to him and Mr de Kock kept most of the money and sometimes a small amount was given to you? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH I assume Mr Klopper that you don't know from personal knowledge what Mr de Kock did with the part of the money that he kept? MR KLOPPER No that's correct, I don't know. MR HATTINGH He could have kept a part of it for himself but he also could have used a large amount of the money for payment of costs as we have heard this morning for the costs to help Mr Flores from his financial position? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH And we heard something of a heart by-pass operation that had to be paid? MR KLOPPER I don't know about that. MR HATTINGH Very well, those false claims which were filed and the money that you received for it, this was not remuneration for your participation in any operation, this was just fraud and Mr de Kock was charged and he was sentenced and he does not ask amnesty for those issues? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR CORNELIUS Mr Chairman, Cornelius on behalf of Britz, Snyman, Vermeulen and Flores. I have no questions thank you. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, Roelof du Plessis on behalf of Mentz. No questions. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, Jan Wagener. Mr Klopper, I want to ensure that I understood you correctly. In our bundle there are two amnesty applications of yours. If you could just give me a moment to have a look? On page 30 and then there is another one that starts on page -I will tell you in a moment - and then on page 43 there is another one? MR KLOPPER That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER This is probably where I don't understand properly, with the first application an annexure was attached to it that appears on page 37 where you deal in paragraph 3 with 19 incidents. Do you see that? MR KLOPPER That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And what causes this uncertainty is the fact that these nineteen incidents, are they still part of your amnesty application for which you request amnesty? MR KLOPPER If you would just give me a moment please? Chairperson it seems that the one that appears on page 30, that starts from page 30 is the initial one which I completed myself and then the later one is the one which was dealt with in consultation with my attorney, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON As I understood it, the question was what you set out at page 38 paragraph 3? That was what the question's about wasn't it? MR KLOPPER That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER Very well, let me ask you in this manner, I see on page 38 for example there's a paragraph 3.2 where you refer to an incident which has regard to a client of mine, Mr Grobbelaar, I don't know whether you apply for amnesty for that but I would like to put it to you any way that Mr Grobbelaar denies these allegations that he was involved in this incident. MR KLOPPER Chairperson, I apply for amnesty for this and it remains as such. MR WAGENER And then for what it's worth, the following paragraph is 3.3, the matter of these false claims and so far as I represent General Engelbrecht, I'm not sure if you refer to him but if you do refer to him as one of the Generals, he denies that he ever authorised claims knowing that these were false claims. MR KLOPPER This is what I said in my evidence in chief Chairperson, the perception that the rest of the Vlakplaas members was that some of them knew of these claims. MR WAGENER And then on the same page 39 paragraph 3.8 where you deal with the incident of Sweet Sambo, you say there that on instruction of General Engelbrecht you went to Komatipoort, he denies that. MR KLOPPER Yes Chairperson. MR WAGENER What is stated there do you stand with your version? MR KLOPPER Yes I do Chairperson. MR WAGENER Did you see what Mr de Kock says with regard to this incident on page 67 of bundle 2? MR KLOPPER I did not read his statement Chairperson. MR WAGENER Where Mr de Kock says that he entered into this operation on his own initiative even after General Engelbrecht told him not to, he did indeed proceed? MR KLOPPER Is this on page 67 which I have in bundle 2? According to me this is the Mabotha incident, Chairperson. MR LAMEY I don't think the witness has that bundle. MR WAGENER Mr Chairman, this is bundle 2, it was referred to at the outset of this hearing under General by Mr de Kock and in that bundle he referred to a number of incidents and on page 67 of that bundle he referred to the Sweet Sambo incident and he gave evidence on this incident on I think it was the 24th May, at the outset of this hearing and that is the bundle I'm now referring to and I'm putting to this witness that Mr de Kock there gives a different version. MR KLOPPER I do not have any knowledge of that. MR WAGENER Do you stand by your version? MR KLOPPER I did not have any insight into any of the other statements and that's correct, I stand by my version. MR WAGENER Very well and then I would like to ask you briefly about the Mabotha incident. Did you perhaps or if you did not, you may ask your attorney if you have a copy of Mr Grobbelaar's statement, this is Exhibit Mabotha B. MR KLOPPER Mabotha B? I think so. MR WAGENER This is Mr Grobbelaar's statement. Mr Klopper, he says or he initially deals with certain backgrounds that led to the arrest of Mr Mabotha and he in paragraph 3.4, he says that Mr du Toit arrested Mabotha at Marble Hall, do you see that? MR KLOPPER Yes I do. MR WAGENER And then he continues and says he heard that Mabotha was an askari and that he had liaised with your commander in Soweto, Mr Nienaber, in paragraph 3.1? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR WAGENER And then on the following page he says, paragraph 4.3, he says he did not liaise with you to come to Marble Hall. I understand it was arranged by Brigadier Nienaber? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, Major Grobbelaar called us, called Lieutenant Jacobs and I and we went there. MR WAGENER Can you please tell us where does Mr van Tonder appear in this picture? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, I don't remember whether he was already at Marble Hall or whether he drove with myself and Lieutenant Jacobs. MR WAGENER Mr Grobbelaar says that the three of you arrived there? MR KLOPPER It's possible Chairperson but I cannot pertinently remember it. MR WAGENER And then Mr Grobbelaar says that the following day on the farm he was basically not present the whole day, he gives a long - he tells us what happened there but he says that the result of it was that he was not at the farm, basically the whole day he was not present? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, I cannot pertinently remember it. MR WAGENER He also further states that he was not there when Mr Mabotha was assaulted. MR KLOPPER I cannot pertinently remember that, Chairperson. MR WAGENER And that he did not participate in any assault? MR KLOPPER I don't remember that Chairperson. ADV SANDI What is it that you don't remember? MR KLOPPER I cannot pertinently remember whether he was there the whole day and whether he left there as he states in his statement. MR WAGENER Maybe I have to put it to you clearly, can you dispute his version if he says that he was not there that day? MR KLOPPER No, as I have already said I remember that when we returned to Soweto there was trouble with the lights of his car and it might be possible, I can't remember it as such. CHAIRPERSON So you can remember clearly that he was there at the end of the day when it was already dark when you returned to Soweto? MR KLOPPER That is correct, Chairperson. MR WAGENER He also says that after you returned that same evening to Soweto you went along with Mr Mabotha where he pointed out certain sites to you, he says it was at a place with the name of Toekomsrus, can you remember that? MR KLOPPER I don't remember that. MR WAGENER Is it possible? MR KLOPPER It is possible but I do not pertinently remember it. MR WAGENER But that during these pointings out that nothing was found? MR KLOPPER I don't remember that, Chairperson. MR WAGENER You did not drive back in the vehicle of Mr Grobbelaar? MR KLOPPER No, I did not. MR WAGENER Thank you Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA J A C Maribana on record. Mr Klopper, I just want to find out what part did you take in the assault of Mr Mabotha? MR KLOPPER I cannot pertinently remember what my specific part was but I did participate in the assault. MR MARIBANA And are you in a position maybe to recollect what part did other members of Vlakplaas and Soweto security branch, did they take in assaulting Mr Mabotha? MR KLOPPER Chairperson what I indeed recall was this was the first instance and the last where I saw where the ice blocks were used as I explained. This was Riaan Bellingan. The rest, it's difficult to say what each member specifically did, I cannot remember it pertinently but as I have said they tried to smother him with an inner tube and assault by means of punching and kicking him. MR MARIBANA And yesterday there was evidence before this Honourable Committee that you take part by putting ice blocks up Mr Mabotha's anus, what can you say about that? MR KLOPPER If you can please repeat that please? MR LAMEY Mr Chairman, I don't recall that specifically anyone referred to Mr Klopper being specifically partaking in that. There's no such evidence in my recollection. MR MARIBANA Honourable Chairman, let me just check my notes please. ADV SANDI My recollection is that the reference was made specifically to Mr Bellingan and according to Colonel de Kock that is when he decided to withdraw because he had not seen this type of torture before but there was no specific reference as far as I recall to Mr Klopper as having taken part in that. MR LAMEY Yes. MR MARIBANA Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll withdraw that line of questioning. And would you be in a position to be able to tell this Honourable Committee as to how long did the questioning take place? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, as far as I recall it was in the morning more or less when we went to the farm where the interrogation took place and what I indeed remember is that we returned that evening to Soweto so I have to make an inference that it was probably more or less one day. MR MARIBANA So if I understand you correctly, the questioning took place the whole day? MR KLOPPER As far as I recall that's correct yes. MR MARIBANA Was there breaks taken during that questioning? MR KLOPPER I cannot specifically recall. If I tell you that specifically Lieutenant Jacobs and I went and bought some food but I cannot recall specifically. MR MARIBANA And it might be possible that members of the security branch both from Vlakplaas, Soweto and Marble Hall, they might be having breaks between themselves but the questioning didn't have a break? MR KLOPPER It's possible, I cannot specifically tell you. CHAIRPERSON In that connection, where did the questioning take place? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, it was on a farm just outside Marble Hall if I recall correctly. It was in a - if I recall correctly, there was a type of lapa, an open area where it took place, I cannot specifically remember but it was not in a house, that I do remember. CHAIRPERSON Because my recollection is that we have had evidence that the suffocation took place in a room and the hanging up upside down took place outside? MR KLOPPER As far as I recall it was outside all the time Chairperson, I don't remember if there was even a house where we were. MR MARIBANA Thank you Mr Honourable Chair. Mr Klopper, you told this Honourable Committee that the injuries which were sustained by Mr Mabotha were visible, is that so? MR KLOPPER I cannot remember the pertinent injuries but my recollection of the assault is that it was indeed so that injuries had to be visible. MR MARIBANA So would you be in a position maybe to tell this Honourable Committee what type of injuries did Mr Mabotha sustain? MR KLOPPER I cannot specifically remember. MR MARIBANA So from the farm did you go straight to Soweto? MR KLOPPER As far as I remember we went directly there, we went to Protea security branch which is the headquarters of Soweto security. MR MARIBANA Did the questioning take place at Soweto or at Protea as you've just indicated? MR KLOPPER It's the same place, it's a police complex in Soweto, Chairperson. MR MARIBANA What I'm saying, did the questioning continue there? MR KLOPPER I have said so, yes it did. MR MARIBANA And Mr Klopper, tell me, what information did come up during the questioning, do you still remember what actually you managed to get out of Mr Mabotha? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, I have already given evidence that I cannot recall specifically which information emanated but I can recall that there was information with regard to safe houses. That is why we went to search these houses. MR MARIBANA So if I understand you correctly, you can't tell whether that information came from Mr Mabotha or somebody came up with that information? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, I can't recall it that way. CHAIRPERSON Was he taken with you when you went to search these safe houses? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, it never functioned that way that we would take the person with us into the house but he accompanied us to identify the houses which were later searched. MR MARIBANA And nothing was found in those houses, is that correct? MR KLOPPER I cannot recall. ADV SANDI Do you know as a matter of fact whether such houses after he had pointed them out were subsequently searched? MR KLOPPER Yes, houses were indeed searched but I cannot recall whether we achieved any success but we did search houses. I think Mr Grobbelaar stated it similarly in his affidavit, that houses were searched. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR MARIBANA With whom were you when you were going to identify or to search these safe houses, can you still remember? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, I cannot recall who I travelled with, I just know there was a large convoy of vehicles and all of these vehicles drove in and among one another so I cannot recall with whom we travelled. CHAIRPERSON I think you have already said that the people who engaged in the searches were those who had been at Marble Hall? MR KLOPPER As far as I can recall, the members of marble hall didn't return too Soweto. I know that Mr de Kock and Mr Bellingan but it would have been people from Soweto who searched the houses with us. CHAIRPERSON The Soweto people? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MR MARIBANA And then Mr Klopper, okay I heard you saying that you can't remember what type of information you've managed to get out of Mr Mabotha. When did you hear that Mr Mabotha has returned to the ANC and then he had made the contact with Winnie Mandela, when did you hear that? MR KLOPPER The first time that I came to hear of Mabotha's existence was at Marble Hall, that was the first time I came to know of him, that was the first and the last day that I saw Mabotha. So everything that I observed took place on that day. CHAIRPERSON Well not only what you observed, what you heard. You were being asked when did you hear that he had reverted to the uMkhonto weSizwe and that he had had connections with Mrs Mandela. MR KLOPPER Everything emerged during that day. ADV SANDI Was that information coming from him or were you being told by? MR KLOPPER It was from the members who were present there. MR MARIBANA So on that aspect, do you still remember actually who came up with that information? MR KLOPPER No, I cannot recall precisely. MR MARIBANA Thank you Mr Chair, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARIBANA CHAIRPERSON Was that the first time you heard about the tapping of these telephone calls? MR KLOPPER No, it was general knowledge at Soweto security branch that Winnie Mandela's phone was being tapped. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? Sorry, sorry. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Ramula Patel. Just a couple of clarifying questions. You stated that it was Mr Bellingan who had used the ice on Mr Mabotha, is that correct? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MS PATEL Do you have any idea where the ice came from? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, I cannot recall, it may be when we went to purchase the food but I cannot remember exactly where the ice came from. MS PATEL Okay, was Mr de Kock present at that time when the ice was used? MR KLOPPER As far as I can recall yes. MS PATEL And it was used at the time that Mr Mabotha was hung upside down? MR KLOPPER That is correct. MS PATEL Mr de Kock has already stated that he assisted in hanging Mr Mabotha upside down. Can you recall who else would have assisted? MR KLOPPER I can't recall, it may have been that I participated in helping to do this. MS PATEL Okay, can you recall what Mr de Kock's role specifically was besides the fact that he was in charge from the Vlakplaas side? What he did or what he said, do you have any recollection of this? MR KLOPPER I cannot recall precisely but it is possible for the reason that he was the commander of Vlakplaas, he would have posed questions regarding the activities from the farm that he had left. I cannot recall exactly. MS PATEL Can you recall whether Mr de Kock had posed questions to Mr Mabotha during the interrogation or whether it was during - there might have been a break in between and the assault on him? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, I cannot recall. MS PATEL The information that was given by Mr Mabotha at the interrogation regarding the identity of his cohorts and also the place where the weapons might have been stored, was Mr de Kock present at that time, can you remember? MR KLOPPER I cannot recall. MS PATEL Okay, there was just one other aspect. Sorry Honourable Chairperson, if you'd grant me a moment? ADV SANDI If I could just come in while you're trying to decide which question to ask? Do you know if anything was found in his possession, Mr Mabotha? MR KLOPPER No Chairperson, I do not know. ADV SANDI Do you know if he was forced to take off his clothes or what? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, usually the person ...(inaudible) MS PATEL ...(inaudible) I needed to put as well, but if the ice was used, he would have been stripped, not so? MR KLOPPER Yes that's logical. MS PATEL Okay. Finally, your sense of Mr Mabotha, was he very difficult during the interrogation process, was he quite a tough person? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, there were various occasions upon which persons would be interrogated and information would not emanate freely towards us but I cannot tell you exactly whether Mr Mabotha was someone who fought against it, I can't recall exactly. MS PATEL Okay thank you. Thank you Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR LAMEY No re-examination Mr Chairman. MR SIBANYONI Mr Klopper, you were at Soweto, you were stationed at Soweto security police. There is a statement from Johannes Mabotha in which among others he states that he testified in some cases against ANC members and that in fact when he was a state witness in one of these cases he was abducted from two people in Mamelodi. Do you know anything of that sort? MR KLOPPER I have no knowledge about that. MR SIBANYONI And also as a person from Soweto security police there is a statement of Mr Potgieter who says Johannes Mabotha was supposed to be taken and kept safe at Vlakplaas and not to be eliminated. What do you know in connection with that? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, after the incident and the searching of the houses I had nothing further to do with him. I don't know whether that was the case or not. MR SIBANYONI What would you say if someone will say that is sort of a perception that it would appear his allegation that he was abducted could be correct in the sense that he pointed out certain safe houses. You people said nothing could be found, no arm caches could be found and there is this allegation that Winnie Mandela sent him to Botswana and only to talk about Stompie Sipei and if really he was a danger to the security police one would have expected him to be talking about Vlakplaas. There is nothing which you people from Soweto security police discovered which he has disclosed to the ANC about Vlakplaas and is my supposition correct? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, I have no commentary about that, I don't know anything about it. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. CHAIRPERSON You have in your statement dealt with various incidents about money, do you remember them? MR KLOPPER That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON On page 39 in paragraph 3.4 you talk about De Kock taking ninety thousand and giving you ten thousand? MR KLOPPER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And at page 38, the bottom of the page you also talk about money for lunches, hunting trips? MR KLOPPER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And the same at page 40. You've told that there you were trying to rob a Mr Jerome Marais? MR KLOPPER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you say you gave the diamonds and jewellery to Ferdi Barnard to sell but you never got anything back? MR KLOPPER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was this sort of thing happening all the time at Vlakplaas or were you the only person involved in this sort of thing? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, all the members at Vlakplaas who had access to the secret fund generated money in that fashion. During the De Kock hearing many charges were put to him upon which he was found guilty, charges of fraud. CHAIRPERSON Yes but I'm not only talking about him, I'm talking about the other members of Vlakplaas. MR KLOPPER Yes, that is what I'm saying, it was general practice at Vlakplaas, all those members who had access to the secret fund. CHAIRPERSON But who were those members? MR KLOPPER All the White members and some of the Black section members. CHAIRPERSON And they all profited from it? MR KLOPPER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And this had nothing to do with their salaries as policemen, this was their benefits for working at Vlakplaas? MR KLOPPER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And they were quite substantial benefits? MR KLOPPER Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SIBANYONI Mr Lamey, maybe I should directly question from you, what was the intention of attaching the statement at page 37, 38 and 39? Is he also in these proceedings applying for amnesty for these other incidents or not? MR LAMEY No Mr Chairman, may I just point to you the introductory paragraph in the supplementary application which starts at - well the supplementary application starts at 43 but then in the annexure thereto, I must just find myself here, there's a paragraph 1 introduction, which is found on page 48. In other words with the intention there was that those incidents referred to in his supplementary application, they've all been listed with the heading like the Mabotha Incident, we don't have everything in his supplementary application here but the intention was here not to refer any longer to other aspects that clearly does not have anything to do with a political objective and the intention is to disregard those as part of the initial application for that purpose because clearly it doesn't qualify for any amnesty. CHAIRPERSON It's really to substitute this secondary application or his original application? MR LAMEY Yes. CHAIRPERSON If the originals are not repeated they are to be ignored? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY Yes. Where specific incidents are repeated they are supplemented as such to give more detail and etc. etc. May I just ask just one question just to follow up Mr Chairman? Mr Klopper just to join up with the question put by the Chairperson. You have given evidence about it and it's no longer a secret that at Vlakplaas these false claims were instituted and that various members drew benefits from that? MR KLOPPER Yes that is correct. MR LAMEY This specific money which was generated by means of false claims, can you tell us whether it was paid out to somebody specific with regard to general services which were rendered or to fulfil a personal need? MR KLOPPER I'm not certain what you mean by that? MR LAMEY The funds which were generated by means of false claims, do you know whether any of these funds were used to pay members for general delivery of services or specifically in assistance of somebody with a determined financial emergency? MR KLOPPER Chairperson, De Kock helped those people who were experiencing problems but he wouldn't be paid to go and do his specific job. For example the killing of Mabotha. A person would not be paid to kill someone specific, that was not what it was about. MR LAMEY Well let's suppose parallel to specific orders which were given and specific operations which were then executed in order to achieve a specific objective which was aimed against the liberation movements, there would at times behind the scenes be these false claims and fraudulent actions? MR KLOPPER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON If I understand what you've said and the other evidence that we've heard, there were occasions when Mr de Kock assisted people, heart operation we've heard about, matters of that nature, that there was the other constant bleeding, if we can use that word, of the funds by everybody at Vlakplaas for their own personal benefits? MR KLOPPER Yes Chairperson, this is as I've given evidence. Sometimes there would be functions, there would also be functions among ourselves not only for senior staff members and the secret fund would then be milked if I may put it that way. CHAIRPERSON And it seemed to have been done on a sort of commission basis, that Mr de Kock needed ninety thousand for some function and you happened to be there and you took an extra ten for yourself? MR KLOPPER Yes, the money would then be divided by him. CHAIRPERSON And he might have given another ten to somebody else, five thousand to some here? MR KLOPPER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And this was a constant? MR KLOPPER That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR LAMEY No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY MR LAMEY That is the evidence for the applicants, thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Is there any other evidence to be led? MR ROSSOUW Rossouw, Mr Chairman, I do not intend to call Mr Potgieter though I would submit that that concludes the application as far as it goes to this incident. CHAIRPERSON Do the family wish to call anyone? MR MARIBANA No Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Leader of evidence? MS PATEL No I don't Honourable Chairperson, except I just wish to place on record regarding your query yesterday in respect of the court records where Mr Mabotha would have been involved in giving evidence. Unfortunately those records have been disposed of a long time ago so we do not have access to them. MR ROSSOUW Sorry Mr Chairman, Rossouw again. May I also give you an indication as to your query about that yesterday, especially in the light that some people take the point that the client that I represent and myself have the direct line with the Attorney General, I have taken the liberty of trying to establish from the Attorney General what has happened in those cases. We have not been able to determine what has happened and whether there was in fact prosecutions or not. I'm still awaiting a final answer but I haven't had a response from the Attorney General right until this time. CHAIRPERSON I gather from what else you told me Ms Patel, this is not only the Attorney General or Magistrates Court that has problems but that you have not been able to obtain the complete statement that was handed in at the Section 29 hearing, that also appears to have disappeared as these things do. I think perhaps if we're going to place these things on record, it should be placed on record which may explain the difficulty of obtaining the records, that the one record that the one he was apparently giving evidence in while he disappeared was at a circuit or district court, wasn't it? MS PATEL That is correct, it is a circuit court Honourable Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So their records would probably not be as available as an ordinary court where there's a book that they write in every morning. We can just hope if you will continue with your questioning of the Attorney General, if one can find out anything as to times and things it might be helpful. Thank you. Does anybody want to start talking now or would you rather talk tomorrow morning because we won't finish tonight. What time gentlemen? Ms Patel? Half past nine, ten? MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, will you then excuse me for about half an hour tomorrow morning? CHAIRPERSON You mean you don't want to listen to the other argument? MR ROSSOUW I do Mr Chairman, unfortunately I've got another matter to attend to at 10 o'clock but I'll be here about half past ten. CHAIRPERSON So starting at half past nine wouldn't help you it would just make it more inconvenient. But rather go and attend to the other matter and get here when you can. MR ROSSOUW Thank you. CHAIRPERSON We'll start at 10 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS