amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-14 PRETORIA 13 WILLEM FREDERICK SCHOON MURDER OF K McFADDEN AND Z NYANDA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53426&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9905240623_pre_990614pt.htm CHAIRPERSON We are going to be dealing today and the rest of the week with the Nyanda and McFadden matter. The Committee remains the same. Will the legal representatives please put themselves on record? MR HATTINGH Hattingh instructed by Mr Hugo on behalf of Mr de Kock, Mr Chairman. MR KNIGHT MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, Roelof du Plessis instructed by Strydom Britz Attorneys on behalf of Brigadier Jack Cronje who has already received amnesty. MR PRINSLOO If it pleases Mr Chairman, Harry Prinsloo appearing on behalf of applicants Pienaar and van Zweel. MS VAN DER WALT MR WAGENER Jan Wagener, Mr Chairman, I appear for General Isaac Johannes Engelbrecht. MR VISSER MR MOHLABA Thank you Chairperson. My name is Buka Mohlaba, I am appearing for the family of Nyanda. MS PATEL Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence. CHAIRPERSON Right gentlemen, have you decided in what order the hearing will be held? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Well, this is the Nyanda McFadden bundle. MR VISSER Just the bundle? CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON All right. WILLEM FREDERICK SCHOON (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you, please sit. Brigadier Schoon, you an amnesty applicant in this incident and you apply for amnesty for any illegal or unlawful acts or omissions committed by you before, during and after the incident to which is being referred here as well as any other unlawful act which might emanate from this, is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Your application is in the Nyanda Bundle from pages 22 to 34, is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Do you confirm as far as your knowledge and except for incidents where you draw the attention of the Committee on, that the contents thereof are true and correct? MR SCHOON Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you request that certain evidence be incorporated in your evidence and you specifically refer to the evidence which is referred to in Bundle A which serves before the Committee, is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you have also given evidence before the Human Rights Violations Committee during December 1996 and on 9 October 1997, is that correct? MR SCHOON Yes, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you specifically ask that the decisions which have been reached by the original Amnesty Committee be applicable to you as well, is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER We shall later arrive at exactly what you apply for amnesty for. If we may go to page 3 of your statement, on that page under the heading "Personal Circumstances and Background" you refer to Exhibit A and specifically the extracts which appear there which was taken from the evidence of General Van Der Merwe and Minister Vlok in the Cosatu-Khotso House incidents as well as judgements of the Amnesty Committee, is that correct? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And as far as your evidence is concerned, is it also applicable to you? MR SCHOON It is, Chairperson. MR VISSER And then, on page 4, you summarise your career in the police, it speaks for itself. If we could continue on...(indistinct)... MR SCHOON My amnesty application did not refer to a date of the incident, Major De Kock places the date at November 1983. I will agree with that date, despite the fact Brigadier J Cronje places that date on February 1983 and the applicants Rorich, Van Dyk and Pienaar places the date at 1984. In my evidence I have referred to the evidence of Brigadier Jack Cronje and I have reconciled myself with it. I wish to point out that I mean at that stage to refer to the amnesty application of Brigadier Cronje because he had not yet given evidence with regard to this incident. I am quite aware of the evidence of Brigadier Jack Cronje surrounding this incident before the amnesty Committee during February 1997. MR VISSER MR SCHOON During this incident two persons were killed, namely Zweli Nyanda and Keith McFadden. My role in this incident is as follows. During 1983 I was the commander of the C Group at Security Head Office. General Steenkamp was then the chief of security. CHAIRPERSON Please excuse me, Brigadier, you might be going too fast, could you please go a little bit slower? MR SCHOON Certainly. The discussion has to be judged against the background in the country at that time. Incidents of terror was a daily occurrence and people lost their lives during this violence. The ANC in its submission to the Human Rights Violations Committee of the TRC said that the period from 1980 was a period which they sharpened their armed struggle. I refer to the ANC statement to the TRC, August 1996. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Can I interrupt? The white bundle is a different white bundle. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER MR SCHOON: "Among the conclusions were that the ANC should continue carrying out and even escalating those actions which had played an important role in stimulating political activity, mass resistance and mass organisation, but that there should be more concentration on destroying enemy personnel. The concept of potential future guerrilla zones inside the country was raised." MR VISSER MR SCHOON MR VISSER Chairperson, if I may explain that. In the Further Submissions, under the heading 1983, there are the incidents which the ANC has listed. And this is simply a reference to those listings at page 78, in fact it runs to page 80. Please continue. MR SCHOON MR VISSER Chairperson, that you will find in Annexure A, from page 16 onwards where we dealt with Botswana, Swaziland and Lesotho. It runs to page 20. MR SCHOON Paragraph 18, although Mr Zweli Nyanda was specifically discussed during the discussion between me and Brigadier Cronje, it must be accepted that the underlying problem was not him alone but, the entire MK organisation. Consequently my intention was fixed on a broader scope than just Mr Nyanda and, Brigadier Cronje and I then also discussed the house where Nyanda was living. Seeing as our information indicated that the house was used as a transit and meeting place of MK members. I believed that there would also be other MK members present should an action be taken against Mr Nyanda in that house and, I also expected that the security branch members would also kill such other persons. I believe that the situation was similarly understood by General Steenkamp and Brigadier Cronje. MR VISSER MR SCHOON That is correct. MR VISSER Very well, continue. MR SCHOON Paragraph 19, I agreed with Brigadier Cronje that attempts had to be made to attack the house and, if possible, to kill Zweli Nyanda as well as any other MK members who would be found there. Brigadier Cronje and I discussed the matter with General Steenkamp and he gave the order that the operation be launched. MR VISSER MR SCHOON Paragraph 23, this action by members of the security branch in Swaziland must be regarded against the background of the Simonstown summit about which General Johan Coetzee has given evidence during the London bomb amnesty application hearing. Swaziland was the operational area of the SAP and . I refer to Exhibit A in this regard. MR VISSER Perhaps, Chairperson, I could pinpoint the paragraph to you. Just bear with me a moment. Paragraph 56 of Exhibit A. Please continue. MR SCHOON Paragraph 24, I acted as a policeman in the execution of my duties within the SAP. I truly believed that such actions were expected of me and that my actions fell within the scope of my express or sworn authorisations. I believed this particularly within the light of the pressure which was placed upon us within the security branch by the political leadership of that time. It was consistently maintained that terrorists had to be destroyed in order to prevent the revolution. My conduct was aimed at protecting the State and the National Party and maintaining that government. I drew no personal benefit from this. I have been informed that the Amnesty Committee has granted Brigadier Jack Cronje amnesty for this incident and, I request, respectfully, that amnesty also be granted to me. MR VISSER And if you then page back to page 2, your amnesty application has to do with conspiracy with regard to Zweli Nyanda and other members of uMkhonto weSizwe and Swaziland, the conspiracy to murder these individuals, the murder of Mr Zweli Nyanda and Mr Keith McFadden or any other judgement with regard to these facts. Aiding and abetting before and after the facts, purposeful damage of property to the house, your omission to publicise the true facts after the time and any other offence or delict emanating from this? MR SCHOON That is correct. CHAIRPERSON If he is given amnesty in respect of the murder, then the application for accessory before and after the fact falls away? MR VISSER MR SCHOON I would imagine that when that incident took place, Chairperson, he was not the commander. However, he was a member of that branch. MR VISSER You aware of this incident that we are discussing? MR SCHOON Yes, it came to my attention later when my brother applied for amnesty. MR VISSER And, indeed, this incident will be heard at some or other time in September. MR SCHOON MR VISSER Do you have any knowledge at all about this incident? MR SCHOON No, none whatsoever. MR VISSER Did you give any orders in this regard? MR SCHOON No, none. MR VISSER Then there is a case which Mr de Kock has referred to in bundle 2 on page 26, paragraph 2.2.15.9. And that refers to his amnesty application, incident one, volume 1, page 218. The allegation could be summarised as follows. During the late eighties, Mr de Kock was involved in an attack on ANC activists in Zimbabwe. And he gave evidence that this incident took place in co-operation with Mr Peter Castleton, or at least that it was executed in co-operation with Peter Castleton. And, it involved a motor bomb being placed within a BMW and, Mr de Kock then stated that this action was cleared with you. MR SCHOON No, Chairperson, I have no knowledge about this incident, I was not involved in it. MR VISSER In all fairness, we must say that Mr de Kock, in his application, stated that he is not certain whether this was cleared with you. MR SCHOON No, none whatsoever. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Where? MR VISSER MR SCHOON During that period in time, when the incident took place Major de Kock, who was then the major, told me that there were weapons in Ovamboland which he could have brought to Vlakplaas because Koevoet no longer required these weapons. At first I questioned the whole story because I wanted to know whether it was necessary and, he said: "Yes, it is necessary, we may need these weapons in future." And, because at that stage, I was practically on the verge of retirement, I think I may have already served my application for pension, I said: "Very well, go ahead." MR VISSER And that would have been at the end of October, 1989? MR SCHOON No, Chairperson, it would have been before then because I think that, approximately four months before my date of retirement, I had launched my application so, it must have been a few months before the time. MR VISSER Very well, continue. MR SCHOON MR VISSER Did you regard this as illegal or unlawful, the transport of weapons to South Africa from Ovamboland? MR SCHOON No. MR VISSER What sort of weapons were they? Where did it come from? MR SCHOON These were weapons which were obtained in altercations with Swapo terrorists and which were taken into possession during such situations. MR VISSER Would you say that these were smuggled weapons? MR SCHOON No, Chairperson. These were weapons which had been possessed. MR VISSER If I may then proceed to the issue which Mr de Kock submitted about the false claims and the funds which he maintained at Vlakplaas. Chairperson, that is bundle 2, pages 56 through to page 59, the paragraphs are 2.5.1 to 2.5.4 dealing with false claims in regard to carpets and furniture and air conditioner and ice machines. And then paragraph 2.5.4 to 2.5.8, again with the question of the ice machines and the furniture, Chairperson and, yes, those are the ones. Mr de Kock, just to cut a long story short, Mr de Kock said that you told him at a certain point that he had to look after his men at Vlakplaas and that he understood this in terms of the fact he had to ensure that they were financially compensated and as I understand it, that this was an order for him to institute false claims to pay them for the long hours which they worked. What is your comment on that? MR SCHOON Chairperson, in the first place, I never said this to him. Secondly, the men were remunerated if they went out and spent periods of time away from the usual station, they would be compensated for full accommodation and travel and that would be the compensation that they received. MR VISSER Are you aware of any false claims which were instituted by Mr de Kock in order to remunerate persons other than with their usual police salary? MR SCHOON No, on the contrary, I am not aware of any remuneration which they may have obtained from the secret fund. MR VISSER Are you aware of the purchase of carpeting, furniture, air conditioners and ice machines by means of instituting false claims? MR SCHOON Chairperson, there were two instances in which we could apply for these conveniences, it had to be properly motivated and then it would be granted, then there would also be the Facility Fund which was similar to the Southern Cross Fund. MR VISSER So, you say that there could be a legal or legitimate application for such items? MR SCHOON MR VISSER Would it have been the same in terms of refurbishments and improvements of Vlakplaas? MR SCHOON They would have to be cleared out once again, and the necessary material would be provided if the request had been cleared. MR VISSER MR SCHOON MR VISSER Would it make any difference if the driver himself had damaged the vehicle because of negligence with regard to a claim, a lawful claim within the police? MR SCHOON Not as far as I know, Chairperson. MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Before we go on with anything else, has the General been to Vlakplaas lately? MR VISSER Has who been to Vlakplaas, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Lately? MR VISSER Have I been to Vlakplaas? CHAIRPERSON No. MR VISSER Oh, Mr Schoon? MR SCHOON No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR SCHOON No, Chairperson. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Have you been? MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER But, Chairperson, why, there could be absolutely no problem with the Committee going out there. Would you like us to make such arrangements? CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR HATTINGH MR VISSER ADV SANDI Sorry, just one thing. Mr Schoon, when was the last time you were at Vlakplaas? MR SCHOON Chairperson, this was at about 1993, somewhere around there. ADV SANDI Was that the time you were still in charge there? MR SCHOON No, Chairperson, I was already retired for a few years. ADV SANDI Did you, at any stage, go to Vlakplaas at the time you had already retired? MR SCHOON Please repeat, please. ADV SANDI After retirement, did you at any stage go to Vlakplaas? Did you visit Vlakplaas after your retirement? MR SCHOON Yes, Chairperson, I was invited a few times by the members from Vlakplaas when they held functions there. This was about at four of five occasions shortly after I had retired. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I think Mr Du Plessis has a request to make. MR PRINSLOO MR HATTINGH ADV SANDI Some of them, the applications have been withdrawn, for example ...(indistinct). MR HATTINGH Yes, correct, in some instances the applications have been withdrawn. Now, am I, is it expected of me now to cross examine Brigadier Schoon on issues such as Maponya, which is going to be dealt with at a later stage? Surely if the Brigadier, as an implicated person, wants you to draw certain inferences as to whether he was involved in the operation or not that he should come to that hearing ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Brigadier ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR HATTINGH Unfortunately...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR VISSER ADV SANDI Mr Visser, just for my own clarity, is it the position that you do not intend to call your client or he intends not to come and testify when these other matters are dealt with? MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH Is it correct that before this process which you have just described was finally finished, Vlakplaas had already occupied the property, and when I say Vlakplaas, I refer to C1? MR SCHOON Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. I think that the police occupied the premises in 1976 approximately and it was only three years later when it actually became State property. And at that stage, there was a dispute regarding who was the actual owner of that piece of land because it was inheritance land which was owned by three or four brothers and the surviving mother. It had been inherited by this group of persons and it was not specified in the testament who would receive which piece of land. And there was a person who claimed property or ownership of the remaining piece of land, consequently there was a dispute regarding who may sell the land and who may not sell the land. MR HATTINGH Now Brigadier, during that period, before the land was registered as State property and, while Vlakplaas was already there, who would have paid for any structural improvements which were brought about? MR SCHOON Chairperson, no, it would have been us because we were the occupants of that property. MR HATTINGH But did you not attempt to consult the Department of Public Works to cover the payment of these structural improvements and so forth? MR SCHOON Chairperson, the then commander, General Coetzee, made the funds available and paid for it. MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And because of all of this red tape which had to be dealt with, the ultimate decision was taken to use the secret fund to pay for these improvements and the equipment which was acquired but in order to by pass all the prescriptions in this regard, it was decided to do this by means of false claims. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON No, Chairperson, I never approved any claims. This was done by the person who was in command of accounts. MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON Yes, he could recommend it or not recommend it. MR HATTINGH Very well, then I may have used the incorrect word. You signed these false claims which were instituted and in this manner you recommended it? MR SCHOON No, Chairperson, I am not aware of any false claims. MR HATTINGH Brigadier, you maintain that you attended a number of functions at Vlakplaas after you retired from service? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And before you retired from the service, you were, by nature of your position, also present at such Vlakplaas functions. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And this was a reasonably frequent institution at the farm? MR SCHOON Chairperson, usually once a month, perhaps even twice a month and it may have been even more, during certain months. MR HATTINGH Yes, and sometimes it may also have taken place during the week and not necessarily only on a Friday? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And during these functions, there was a great number of people who were present? MR SCHOON Usually, yes. MR HATTINGH And, in order to hold such a function, it would incur great costs? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH Alcohol and food were expensive? MR SCHOON Yes. MR HATTINGH And those would be the key components of acquisition for the purposes of these functions. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And you also state that the costs for these functions would be covered by the secret fund in a legal manner. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH With the full knowledge of Head Office, of the Minister, the Cabinet and the Government, this is what you say. MR SCHOON No, Chairperson, that is not what I said. MR HATTINGH Well then, if it had been officially paid for, how did this come about? MR SCHOON It would be paid out of the secret fund as recreational costs. MR HATTINGH But was this for the purposes of the war, on such a great scale? MR SCHOON Well, Chairperson, it was approved. MR HATTINGH By who, by the accountant? And who was that? MR SCHOON At a stage it was Brigadier Piet Goosen and after him, I think it was General Malan. MR HATTINGH And in your capacity as the head of the unit, you had to sign and recommend these official claims. MR SCHOON Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you do this frequently? MR SCHOON Yes. MR HATTINGH With regard to each and every one of those functions which was held there? MR SCHOON No, Chairperson, I was not the only person who signed. MR HATTINGH Who else could sign? MR SCHOON The next officer if I was not available. MR HATTINGH Who would that have been? MR SCHOON There was a Colonel Van Rensburg. MR HATTINGH Only him? MR SCHOON There was also Brigadier Cronje at a stage. MR HATTINGH Yes. And you tell us then that with regard to the official policy, it was an order that a number of policemen regularly held functions at Vlakplaas at State cost or expenditure? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH But most of them were policemen. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And then we also heard of the odd minister, here and there. Who else? MR SCHOON That is all, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Is that all? ADV SANDI MR SCHOON That was people who usually assisted the Security branch in the proper execution of their tasks, who performed service without any remuneration. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON Some of the private individuals offered to pay and acted as sponsors. MR HATTINGH Did they then cover the expenditure of the entire function? MR SCHOON Yes. MR HATTINGH How often did this take place? MR SCHOON Not very often. MR HATTINGH But do you say that, or let me put the question to you like this, did it ever occur that some of these function took place at Vlakplaas during which only police members were present? MR SCHOON I think so. MR HATTINGH And are you then saying that is was in order for policemen to use State funds for functions or entertainment? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON I cannot comment on that. MR HATTINGH Would you deny it? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH Was there, at a later date, was there such a fund which you mentioned, the fund that Brigadier Cronje established? MR SCHOON There could have been. MR HATTINGH So you are not certain? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH If it could have been, it could not have been paid out of such a fund. And where would the money have come from then? It was a well known fact that policemen and policemen of rank such as Mr de Kock and policemen who served under him at Vlakplaas did not have a very extensive salary. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And that they could not have used their salaries to cover the costs which were connected with such functions. MR SCHOON As far as I know, they made a monthly contribution which came from their travel and accommodation allowances. MR HATTINGH In order to cover the costs of other policemen who visited the farm and attended functions? MR SCHOON And their own. MR HATTINGH Yes, I can understand their own but, here we have a great number of guests in attendance and are you telling me that they used some of the funds allocated to their legal travel and accommodation costs in order to entertain other policemen and officers at the farm? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH Could the canteen at Vlakplaas have put in a claim for an ice machine? MR SCHOON Yes, I think so. MR HATTINGH Why do you say that you think so? MR SCHOON Because it would be a convenience that would be provided by the quartermaster or the fund. MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON That is correct. MR HATTINGH And that equipment such as an ice machine had to be purchased through the profits of such sales and not by means of State funds? MR SCHOON If a claim was put in with the equipment fund, it would be money which was made available for facilities by means of other institutions. MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON I cannot recall that specifically but, if the claims could be shown to me, I may be able to refresh my memory. MR HATTINGH Can you not dispute it? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH Do you recall a person by the name of Ernest Ramatola? MR SCHOON Yes, I remember him. MR HATTINGH Was he a police member or a so called Askari? MR SCHOON I think he was an Askari who came from Bloemfontein. MR HATTINGH And he was involved in the attempt on the life of the deceased Mr Chris Hani. MR SCHOON Yes, that is what the information appears to be. MR HATTINGH And he was involved in that attempt in his capacity as an Askari who was linked to Vlakplaas? MR SCHOON No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH I beg your pardon. MR SCHOON No. MR HATTINGH In what capacity was he involved then? MR SCHOON It was only after that incident that he arrived at Vlakplaas. MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And he asked if he could be compensated? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON I did not attend that function. MR HATTINGH But do you know anything about it? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON No, I deny that. MR HATTINGH Vlakplaas was equipped with a number of weapons which were furnished with silencers? MR SCHOON Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH This is not a fact which you generally publicised. MR SCHOON No. MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH Among others, there were 21 AK guns which were furnished with silencers. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And those silencers had to be specially manufactured. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH Mr de Kock will state that you approved that an amount of R21 000.00 be paid out by means of a completion of a false claim to the person who manufactured these silencers. MR SCHOON I have absolutely no knowledge of that. MR HATTINGH If such silencers existed, how did you obtain them? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH But you do accept that they existed. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH Really? MR SCHOON Really. MR HATTINGH But you have just said that Vlakplaas had weapons which were furnished with silencers. CHAIRPERSON MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON MR HATTINGH Yes, I apologise, I misunderstood him, Mr Chairman. The other silencers that you were indeed aware of, how did you come to know about this? MR SCHOON As far as I know, our technical division manufactured this equipment, and if I recall correctly, it was Brigadier Wal du Toit who manufactured it. MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON That is what I know of. MR HATTINGH But he also maintains that you know about the AK-47s which were furnished with silencers and that you recommended the false claim for the payment of this fitting. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH As I said, initially, there are literally numerous such false claims which Mr de Kock will give evidence about and regarding which he will maintain that you consistently knew about the fact that false claims were instituted and that you yourself approved the payment of such false claims. MR SCHOON No, I did not approve such false claims, neither did I recommend them. MR HATTINGH I will not put any more questions to you about false claims at the moment. Perhaps if we could have an opportunity at a later date, we can explore this matter of the false claims more thoroughly and you will have your opportunity to put forward your version. I would just like to come to this incident. Or just before I get to that, were you involved in the Mxenge incident? MR SCHOON In this regard, Chairperson, that I was the courier who delivered money for Captain Dirk Coetzee. MR HATTINGH Which money was this? MR SCHOON It was money which Brigadier Du Preez had given to me with the request to deliver it to Coetzee. MR HATTINGH For which purpose? MR SCHOON Apparently it was to remunerate three Askaris for their share in the murder of Mr Mxenge. MR HATTINGH And you say apparently, were you not informed for what it was? MR SCHOON He told me to give the money to Dirk Coetzee. MR HATTINGH And he also told you what it was intended for. MR SCHOON I suspect that he told me. MR HATTINGH And where did you get the money? MR SCHOON From Brigadier Du Preez. MR HATTINGH And do you know where he obtained it from? MR SCHOON He obtained it from Koevoet. MR HATTINGH From Koevoet? MR SCHOON Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Is that what he told you? MR SCHOON Yes. MR HATTINGH Did you ever apply for amnesty for any false claims? MR SCHOON No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So you say that Brigadier Du Preez told you that the money which was given to Mr Nofomela and others, we know it was them, that this money came from Koevoet? MR SCHOON Yes. MR HATTINGH Why was it necessary to obtain money from Koevoet? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH That Koevoet was also a police unit. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And would this have been official funds or not? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH Was this your only involvement in the Mxenge matter? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH Let us come to the Nyanda incident. Were any awards given to some of the members who were involved in the incident? MR SCHOON If I recall correctly there was an application for medals and these medals were awarded to them. MR HATTINGH Can you recall which type of medals these were? MR SCHOON It was a medal which would usually, if I recall correctly, only be allocated to generals. MR HATTINGH The SOE? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And, as you have said, usually only generals would be the recipients of such medals? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And in this case it was awarded to who? MR SCHOON I think it was Jack Cronje, Mr de Kock and three or four other persons who had been involved in this operation. MR HATTINGH You say, in your application, that you agree with the evidence of Mr Cronje. Can I infer from that that with regard to his written amnesty application which is attached to these documents, that you have studied this document, that you understand what appears in this document? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH Could I refer you to page 90 of the documentation. MR SCHOON Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH There he says "After that I received an SOE award or medal for exceptional service as well as the following members who were present, namely De Kock, Van Dyk, Pienaar, Rorich, all of whom received the same medal." MR SCHOON Yes. MR HATTINGH The typed page 55 of the bundle now before you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct). MR HATTINGH MR SCHOON He was then a major. MR HATTINGH And Mr Van Dyk? MR SCHOON He was a lieutenant, I think. MR HATTINGH And Mr Pienaar? MR SCHOON A warrant-officer. MR HATTINGH Mr Rorich? MR SCHOON He was also a warrant-officer. MR HATTINGH So, this medal which would usually only be allocated to generals was now being given to soldiers who were not even officers? MR SCHOON That is correct. MR HATTINGH What was the procedure with the award of such a medal, perhaps I could express myself more clearly? Who would know about it and what motivation had to be provided before such a medal could be awarded? MR SCHOON Chairperson, in this case, it was only the Commander, and I think at that stage General Steenkamp, and the Commissioner and the Minister who knew. And the motivation was very superficial. It was simply stated that certain members had participated in an operation during which action had been taken against the enemy and it was then recommended that the following medal be awarded to them. And then it would be taken by hand, I suspect to the Commissioner, and he in turn would take the matter up with the Minister. MR HATTINGH Apart from the information which appeared in this vague motivation, do you know which information the Commissioner would have had? Do you think he would have known that this was for a cross border operation? MR SCHOON Yes, he would have known. MR HATTINGH And you cannot say whether he conveyed the information that he had to the Minister? MR SCHOON I think he would have because the Minister would certainly have asked: "But what is this for? Why should we award this medal?" MR HATTINGH Who was the Commissioner at that stage? MR SCHOON If I recall correctly, it was General Coetzee. MR HATTINGH Mr Cronje, on page 55, also says that after the operation, he contacted you and informed you about what had taken place there. MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And did you in turn report to anybody else who was above you? MR SCHOON Yes, to the Commander. MR HATTINGH That was General Steenkamp? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And he was thoroughly informed regarding the operation? MR SCHOON Yes, well, the initial report that came to me was that action had been taken against certain persons. MR HATTINGH And later, you received thorough information about it? MR SCHOON Yes, and this was also conveyed to him. MR HATTINGH And the weapons from Ovambo, you were at all times aware of the fact that after, as you say, you gave permission for it to be brought, that the weapons were at Vlakplaas? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And you knew that it was a large consignment of arms, including explosives and so forth? MR SCHOON I was not aware of explosives because this would not normally be stored there. MR HATTINGH The unit C1, were they ever involved in operations where explosives were used? MR SCHOON Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And where did you think these explosives came from? MR SCHOON These were supplied by the explosives unit. MR HATTINGH Very well, but if Mr de Kock says that there were explosives amongst the arms which were brought from Namibia, would you be able to dispute it? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH And you would also not be able to dispute the fact that some of those explosives were used during later operations? MR SCHOON I am not aware of it, Chairperson but I cannot dispute it. MR HATTINGH Are you aware thereof that when the Harms Commission was appointed, that these arms were moved from Vlakplaas? MR SCHOON MR HATTINGH You heard that they were removed? MR SCHOON Yes, I heard. MR HATTINGH And this had your approval? MR SCHOON Yes, this was after I had already retired, this is when that happened. MR HATTINGH The removal or the visit that Mr de Kock paid to you? MR SCHOON No, the removal thereof. MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) I thought all applications for fraud had been withdrawn? MR HATTINGH We submit, Mr Chairman, that it might be relevant as far as the credibility of Mr de Kock is concerned, but subject to that Mr Chairman, we have no further questions at this stage. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR KNIGHT Thank you, Mr Chairman, Julian Knight on behalf of Nofomela. No questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Chairperson, Harry Prinsloo on behalf of van Zweel and Pienaar. Brigadier, there was a similar medal awarded to warrant-officer van Zweel who is also an applicant which was approved by the Minister. MR SCHOON It is possible. MR PRINSLOO I have such a certificate which is signed by the Minister, if you want to have a look at it. I will not hand it up as evidence. MR SCHOON It is so, Chairperson. This just slipped my mind but I will concede that it is so. MR PRINSLOO And the same is applicable to Mr Pienaar? MR SCHOON Yes, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO No further questions. Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO MS VAN DER WALT Mr Chairperson, Louisa van der Walt on behalf of Mr Rorich and Mr Van Dyk and the implicated Mr Deetlefs. No questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT MR MOHLABA NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, honourable Chairperson, Ramula Patel. Sir, can you briefly elaborate to us, what information did you, or was given to you regarding Mr Nyanda at the time? MR SCHOON Chairperson, it was well known that Mr Nyanda was in Swaziland and that he was the commander of the Natal machinery and that he orchestrated many acts of terror from Swaziland. And, at that stage, it came to our knowledge that his home, the house that he used in Swaziland, that this had become known and, because of this, a decision was taken to launch this operation. MS PATEL Okay, do you have any specific knowledge on which acts of terror he might have been involved in? MR SCHOON Chairperson, there were numerous incidents. These are all supported and, if it is necessary, we can draw up a table thereof but, off the top of my head, I cannot tell you at this time. MS PATEL Okay, and what information was available to you at that time regarding Mr McFadden? MR SCHOON At that stage, we did not know about Mr McFadden. MS PATEL What was the instruction at the stage? Can you recall, was it to kill whoever was found in the house or was the instruction in respect of Mr Nyanda only? MR SCHOON Chairperson, the instruction was to act against Mr Nyanda and we accepted that if other persons were in the house, that action would be taken against them as well. MS PATEL Was that conveyed to the persons who were involved in the operation? MR SCHOON MS PATEL MR SCHOON Chairperson, the Askaris were registered as sources. They received a set salary, monthly and, I think at that stage, when I retired, it was R400.00 a month. And during a certain month, if they had been involved in the identification or elimination of terrorists, then they would also be compensated for that. MS PATEL Would the compensation come from the same fund from which they would be paid for their monthly salary? MR SCHOON MS PATEL MR SCHOON MS PATEL And you stated that documentation was also seized at the place where Mr Nyanda was killed. Can you tell us in more detail what the content of that documentation was? MR SCHOON Chairperson, I am sorry but I cannot recall the detail of that documentation. MS PATEL And I would imagine that that documentation was destroyed at some stage or do we still know of the whereabouts of those documents? MR SCHOON MS PATEL Where would one find this documentation, sir? Do you have any idea? MR SCHOON At Security Headquarters, Chairperson. MS PATEL Alright. Thank you, honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON If the Swazi police had found documents there, would they have handed them over to South African sources? MR SCHOON I believe so, Chairperson because the co-operation between the Swaziland police and ourselves was on a healthy level. And they periodically did make documentation available to us which was found in Swaziland. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct). MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER Thank you, Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS MR VISSER "...commanded by Henry Chelisa and later Thami Zulu, Zweli Nyanda and then Cyril Raymonds...(indistinct)" RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER What was that answer? MR SCHOON I have a vague recollection that such an occasion might have existed but I cannot recall the particulars and that is why I asked that documentation be submitted to me so that I can refresh my memory therewith. MR VISSER So, if documentation exists that would make it much more clearer for you, you will be in a better position to answer the question negatively or positively? MR SCHOON MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER ADV SANDI Can I just ask Mr Schoon that you explain...(indistinct). Now, you are being asked to sign for a claim, can you describe the nature of the documentation that would be put before you, on your desk? MR SCHOON ADV SANDI Would anything make you refuse to sign? MR SCHOON ADV SANDI Did it ever happen that you would refuse to sign because the documentation before yourself is not correct? MR SCHOON Chairperson, yes, it did occasionally happen that the wording was not complete and then one would ask that the document be completed properly before it is recommended or approved. ADV SANDI Would you be able to recall a specific incident when you refused to sign? MR SCHOON Chairperson, it happened regularly that there were shortcomings within the claim which had to be corrected. ADV SANDI Thank you, thank you, Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR SCHOON No, Chairperson, there was just one original and there was no duplicate thereof. CHAIRPERSON Did you keep no record then? MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON So, if there are records, they would be with the people who paid the claims? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Not with...(indistinct). MR SCHOON No, Chairperson, not at all. CHAIRPERSON Would they keep no record of money they spent? MR SCHOON There were complete records thereof, Chairperson and it has to be there. CHAIRPERSON They would have a record in their book of the money that they wanted to spend, that they had spent. And they would then claim it. Take the parties that we have heard so much about, they had spent money buying liquor, food for the party. They would have a record of how much they had spent? MR SCHOON CHAIRPERSON They would then put in a claim to obtain the money from whatever the source was. MR SCHOON Which would be supported by receipts and other documentation. CHAIRPERSON But they would then keep, in their books what they had spent, they would keep a record and the other people would receive the claim and the receipts and what have you. MR SCHOON That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. ADV SANDI These monies would range from what amount to what amount? We heard evidence last week and the week before of huge sums of money. MR SCHOON ADV SANDI Would Mr de Kock have been one of the people who would from time to time come to you asking that you sign for these claims? MR SCHOON Yes, Chairperson. ADV SANDI Who were the other people who would come to you for such signatures? MR SCHOON Usually it went through him, the pieces which were handled or dealt with by Vlakplaas. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON MR SCHOON Chairperson, while I was there, the amount would not have been R100 000.00. This would have to be approved by the Commissioner personally. CHAIRPERSON No I take it that for a large amount like that, the Commissioner would want to be satisfied that it was not a false claim. MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson (not through interpreter). MR SIBANYONI Mr Schoon, secret funds are necessarily, if I understood your evidence, not illegal funds, am I correct? MR SCHOON MR SIBANYONI MR SCHOON That is so, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Do you have an idea what amount was budgeted for the secret funds for the Vlakplaas unit? MR SCHOON MR SIBANYONI I heard you saying the amount which was paid to Nofomela came from Koevoet. I also heard you saying Askaris were given some money from time to time. By that I think you would exclude people who were formally employed by the security forces. And my understanding was that Nofomela was a constable, am I correct? MR SCHOON That is correct, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI If that is so, why was he supposed to get money? MR SCHOON MR SIBANYONI And then, another aspect is a report was made to you by Cronje about the incident in Swaziland. Were you given the details how the operation was conducted? MR SCHOON Chairperson, no. He just told me briefly what had happened and only much later when he came back, then he gave me a full report. MR SIBANYONI MR SCHOON Chairperson, I cannot comment on the actual happening at the house. I only heard briefly what had happened from Brigadier Cronje MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER I have no further questions, Chairperson, thank you. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) have any further witnesses? Are you now going to produce bundles of documents? MR VISSER No chance, Chairperson. This is the evidence which we wish to present. May Brigadier Schoon may be excused if he is no longer required? CHAIRPERSON He is available if you need him? MR VISSER Indeed, yes, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED