amntrans EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK 1999-06-14 PRETORIA 13 0066/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53427&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9905240623_pre_990614pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Right, who is the next applicant? MR HATTINGH I think, with your approval, Mr de Kock should be the next one, Mr Chairman. May I call him? CHAIRPERSON I think you can sit down for the moment because they seem to be having trouble. EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And, upon previous occasions you have already given evidence and, upon those occasions you have given a general submission regarding your application with reference to various incidents. And you confirm the content thereof? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And do you once again confirm that today? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And also in your supplementary affidavit with regard to Vlakplaas, you have studied this and do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH Upon the occasion when the evidence about Vlakplaas in general was heard, you referred to a document which was handed over by Mr Visser and others to us and has been marked as Exhibit A during that hearing, do you recall this? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And you studied this document and do you once again confirm the correctness of the content of the allegations contained within this document? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH And then, on page 9 of the bundle with regard to this incident, you discuss your version regarding the particular incident. MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH Have you studied this and do you confirm the correctness of the content thereof? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH At that stage, how long had you been at Vlakplaas when this operation took place? MR DE KOCK Approximately four months. MR HATTINGH And you were under the command of Brigadier Cronje? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH What was his rank at that stage? MR DE KOCK He was a lieutenant-colonel. MR HATTINGH And did you give you the order to become involved in this operation? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you comply or participate in the planning for the operation? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH Where was this planning undertaken? MR DE KOCK Among others, discussions were held at Vlakplaas and further discussions were also held in Swaziland itself. MR HATTINGH Very well. The members who were involved, were they you, yourself, from Vlakplaas and who else? MR DE KOCK Colonel Cronje, warrant-officer Van Dyk, Mr Bosego, Nofomela and Joe Mamosela. MR HATTINGH And then there were also members from other security units, from the South African Police who were involved? MR DE KOCK Yes, Mr Rorich, Mr Pienaar and Mr van Zweel. There was also a Mr Deetlefs but he was not present during this particular incident. MR HATTINGH Can you tell us briefly what the order was which you received with regard to this operation? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, the order was that Mr Nyanda, Mr McFadden and Mr Lawrence were very active in Swaziland and were creating great problems in the Northern Natal area. That this group had to be wiped out and this phrase was used repeatedly by Colonel Cronje. The group that had to be wiped out here would then be Messrs Nyanda, McFadden and Lawrence. MR HATTINGH How did you go about launching the operation? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH Very well, how did the operation unfold from there? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH So, in other words you did reconnaissance first? MR DE KOCK Yes, we reconnoitred the area. MR HATTINGH And during this reconnaissance, did you notice any persons within the house or outside the house? MR DE KOCK No, it appeared to be entirely deserted. It stood there deserted, there were no other vehicles parked there. It was clear that there was no person residing there on a permanent basis. MR HATTINGH And once you had completed the reconnaissance? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH And he had to depart for some or other reason and could not be present the following evening? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH What did you do then? MR DE KOCK Pienaar, van Zweel and I returned to the hotel where we found Colonel Cronje. We awoke him and the other members and we took our weapons out of the place where we concealed them and we moved in the vehicle to this house for the attack. MR HATTINGH Were these weapons fitted with silencers? MR DE KOCK Yes. There was two Perchets, those are British weapons with an integrated silencer system. MR HATTINGH Is it a hand weapon or a gun? MR DE KOCK They are hand carbine types, almost similar to the Sting but just upgraded. We also had HMKs, those are 9mm hand carbines with silencers and we also had two AK-47s. MR HATTINGH With silencers? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH Why was it necessary to make use of such weapons such as AKs? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, this would have been in case we encounter extra or more resistance in the house or if we ran into security forces in order to get out of the situation. MR HATTINGH That would be the similar reason for taking AK-47s to the Chand residence as you have given evidence previously? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH Now when you arrived there, did you see any person running to the vehicles to report to you as the allegation here maintains? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH What did you drive in? MR DE KOCK They were sedan vehicles. MR HATTINGH How many? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH But there were two vehicles which were described as vans, were there any such vehicles? MR DE KOCK No, not according to my recollection. MR HATTINGH And you say that there was no Mercedes? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH You have given a description about how you took in your position at the window where you were supposed to take your position in the first place. MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH What happened next? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH What happened next? Did the shock grenade go off? MR DE KOCK Yes. It had a double action, it would give two explosions. The objective was disorientation without shrapnel. I then observed that Colonel Cronje was standing in front of the back door that he was firing his Machete into the door at the lock and handle section. MR HATTINGH Was the door closed? MR DE KOCK Yes, it was closed and locked. Mr van Zweel was with him. I then left that section where I had been stationed and ran to Colonel Cronje to help him to kick the door in. In the process, I seriously injured my foot, I broke my toe and in the process, when the door finally went open, Colonel Cronje ran in with van Zweel behind him. MR HATTINGH Could you identify this person? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, he looked like the person who I had seen on photos, he looked like the person who had been identified as Mr Nyanda. MR HATTINGH Had you ever seen this person in real life before this incident? MR DE KOCK Yes. On one incident when we had tried to attack the group and it looked to me to be the same person. In his right hand there was a hand palm case and, warrant-officer Pienaar tried to remove it. We saw that is was attached to his wrist by means of a loop and I think that he had vehicle keys or what appeared to be car keys. The rest of the group moved up from behind and we began to withdraw. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, might this be a convenient stage to take the adjournment? CHAIRPERSON Take the adjournment? MR HATTINGH Yes. CHAIRPERSON COMMITTEE ADJOURNS EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH (cont) MR DE KOCK That is correct and I have just been informed of that by Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH You explained that after the shooting in the house you withdrew back to the vehicles, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Can you say, from within your own knowledge that you saw how many people in the house were shot dead? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I saw a man lying in the one room on the left side, if you move down in an eastern direction, in the passage. However I did not know who it was. I saw no other dead persons there apart from the blood mark which lead to the bathroom. And that person who was in that room was also shot dead. MR HATTINGH Outside the house? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Do you know whether there were any women in the house? Did you hear or see any women? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. When we arrived at the hotel, we had a quick discussion which was very brief and orders were given by Cronje and there I was informed that there had been a woman who had hidden in a cupboard or underneath a bed, I am not entirely certain. MR HATTINGH And that she was not harmed in any way? MR DE KOCK That is correct. MR HATTINGH Of your own people, were any one of you injured? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. When I arrived at my vehicle upon our withdrawal, Bosego called me, he was approximately 12 metres to the east of the vehicles. I moved in that direction, he got up and then fell down again. He told me that he had been shot, at that stage the vehicles began to pull away, they were approximately 20 metres away but the back vehicle reversed. I then helped Bosego from there and we left in that vehicle. MR HATTINGH You did not see when he was shot. MR DE KOCK No. MR HATTINGH MR DE KOCK No. MR HATTINGH In your application you state that he was shot by Mr Rorich. Does he know about that? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH You mean other than at the regular border post? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH In other words you moved across the border illegally? MR DE KOCK Yes. MR HATTINGH And did you report to anybody when you arrived back in Pretoria? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. I was the driver of the vehicle, early that morning we arrived in Pretoria. It was between 06h00 and 08h00. I remained in the vehicle and Colonel Cronje went in to Head Office to report. MR HATTINGH And is that the sum total of your knowledge of this incident? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH Do you know whether anything was found in the house? MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH Was anything said about this after the time? MR DE KOCK Yes, at the debriefing, it was said that documentation had been found. MR HATTINGH Did you study these documents? MR DE KOCK No. However I saw the top document, it was an A4 paper when Colonel Cronje climbed out of the vehicle at Head Office. And it looked like a sketch as if it was some form of a sketch of a road system or an environment, it was a hand sketch. MR HATTINGH How did you regard this operation? In what light did you regard it? MR DE KOCK Well, it was an operation which was aimed against terrorism and terrorist activities, it was cross border, whether you shoot on this side of the border or that side, it still remains murder. And for me it was just another foreign operation. MR HATTINGH And you acted under the orders of Colonel Cronje? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. But I would like to use this opportunity to say that I personally accept responsibility for my own actions and my own conduct at the scene. I do not ask that Cronje do this, I do not want it, I will bear my own responsibilities. MR HATTINGH And the prevention of terrorism, to combat terrorism in an internal community, the security of the Republic and a service to the National Party which was the government. One cannot say that this was a community service but it was a service to the State. Community service would be to save an elderly person from a burning house but to go and shoot somebody on the other side of the border who held different views to you was a service to the State. MR HATTINGH Then, in conclusion, you have heard what I put to Brigadier Schoon with regard to false claims and so forth. MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. I will stand by my affidavits in that regard. I will stand by what I have stated about that and I believe that in future we will receive further evidence about this. MR HATTINGH In other words, do you confirm your versions as contained within your original application and supplemented within the document which deals with Vlakplaas specifically? MR DE KOCK Yes, I will stand by that. MR HATTINGH And do you also confirm the correctness of the statements which I put on your behalf to Brigadier Schoon? MR DE KOCK Yes, unequivocally. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR KNIGHT Thank you, Mr Chairman, Julian Knight on behalf of implicated person Nofomela, I have no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson. Prinsloo on behalf of applicant Pienaar and van Zweel. Mr de Kock, is it correct that initially the then Colonel Deetlefs pointed the house out to Cronje while Pienaar was present? Do you recall that? MR DE KOCK MR PRINSLOO Is it correct that afterwards, Mr Pienaar went to the house and pointed this house to you? MR DE KOCK MR PRINSLOO Furthermore, with regard to your action there at that specific house, according to Mr Pienaar and Mr van Zweel, there may be a possibility of confusion in your mind regarding who entered the house. Pienaar says that he entered the house along with you and that in the house, he shot a person there who later appeared to be McFadden. MR DE KOCK MR PRINSLOO According to Mr Pienaar, he did indeed enter the house and he along with Mr Cronje fired at that person who later appeared to be Mr McFadden. According to Mr van Zweel he was initially at the door with Mr Cronje but when they could not open the door, you kicked the door open and that is when van Zweel moved around the house and held watch outside the house at a window. And that is why I am putting it to you that Mr Pienaar is the person who moved in and that you are confused between the two. MR DE KOCK MR PRINSLOO According to Mr van Zweel, he did not fire any shots in the house at all and he remained outside. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, that may be his recollection. However he made specific use of the Scorpion which was a low calibre weapon. MR PRINSLOO MR DE KOCK MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar says that things happened very quickly there and that he indeed fire in one shot to the head of the person who was known to him to be Zweli Nyanda and it appeared at that stage that the person was still alive. But, he does not recall anything about a case which was removed from the person. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I will not dispute the number of shots that he fired into the head of the victim. The case was there, I have no doubt about that. MR PRINSLOO MR DE KOCK MR PRINSLOO And, Mr de Kock, at that stage, were there many attacks which were launched by the ANC from Swaziland? MR DE KOCK MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT MS VAN DER WALT Louisa van der Walt for the record. Mr de Kock, upon conclusion of your evidence, you have put your initial application more clearly with regard to Mr Rorich denies that he shot this person in the foot but, you have just rectified the matter, is that correct? MR DE KOCK Yes. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER Jan Wagener, Mr Chairman. MR DE KOCK I recall that very clearly. MR WAGENER Are you saying through that that General Engelbrecht attempted to defeat the ends of justice? MR DE KOCK Yes. And to harm a person as well. MR WAGENER Now, I see that you mention here that the object of that would have been to prove that Nofomela was not telling the truth. Do you mean that Nofomela gave evidence that he shot Bosego and you say that the purpose of this amputation would have been to prove that Nofomela was not telling the truth? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, because then there would be no scar on the foot that had been shot. MR WAGENER Mr de Kock, this entire statement that you make here with regard to General Engelbrecht, are you serious about this? MR DE KOCK MR WAGENER MR DE KOCK MR WAGENER Exactly, can you recall? And it would appear that you recall that during the Harms Commission, medical evidence was given to the effect that the man had not been shot at in the foot. MR DE KOCK Yes, we made certain of this before Bosego gave his evidence. There was a mark on his foot which appeared to be the result of having stepped on a hot coal with a bare foot. It would be the similar kind of mark that that would leave and I am very aware of that. MR WAGENER Mr de Kock, General Engelbrecht denies this allegation of yours. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I expected that. I would have been surprised if he had reacted any differently. This works according to the same system which we maintained at the Harms Commission, the system of denials. MR WAGENER MR DE KOCK Chairperson, that is something which one cannot make up. I sat there, that is what General Engelbrecht said, I have repeated it and I will stand by it. CHAIRPERSON And what would Mr Bosego have said about the loss of his foot ...(indistinct) he was having his foot removed. MR DE KOCK He would definitely not have agreed with it. On the contrary, Mr Bosego disappeared at a stage and he found himself in the Mafikeng area to the extent that Mr Nortje and Ras went to look for Mr Bosego. They went there by helicopter. MR WAGENER Mr de Kock, I put it to you that this is just another attempt of yours to get at the generals. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I would say that that is part of a discreditation campaign. MR WAGENER Your discreditation campaign towards the generals. MR DE KOCK No, it worked for Dirk Coetzee, it worked for Nofomela. The situation about the Griffiths Mxenge story, it's an historical fact, my own evidence during the Harms Commission is an historical face, we cannot distort that. MR WAGENER No further questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Thank you, Mr Chairman, Visser on record. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I am not certain. MR VISSER Well, let me put it to you like this, according to your insight, was there anything illegal about bringing weapons which had been possessed by the police in Ovamboland to South Africa? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, we brought these weapons in for our duties. MR VISSER Very well, then I would like to take you to what you said with regard to the supply of weapons and the submission of so called false claims regarding Mr Steyn. Just for the benefit of the Committee, that is bundle 2, page 30, paragraph 2.2.18.2. This refers to incident 12 in volume 2, page 332, incident 13, volume 2, page 339 as well. And there is a further reference, that would be bundle 2, page 36, paragraph 2.2.22.1 and 2.2.22.2. And that refers to incident 12, volume 1 page 325, in volume 12, page 332 and this is the allegation. You say that you provided AK-47 guns to General Steyn for their own purposes as you put it. Can you recall this? MR DE KOCK Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER If General Steyn says that upon one occasion he received one AK-47 from you, would you say that that would be a correct statement or an incorrect statement? MR DE KOCK No, that is incorrect. MR VISSER Well, that is what he says and he denies that on any other occasion except one occasion he received an AK-47 from you and this is a matter for which amnesty has been applied. Mr Chairman, you might remember reference was made to the Quarry road incident during the Natal hearings and that is in connection with that particular incident. General Steyn says that you are mistaken when you say or when you recall it as such, that he requested you to falsely claim money to give to him in order to remunerate his informers. He denies this, he maintains that he had almost a half a million rands in funds which he could use for this purpose and that this money had been allocated to his division. MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, then I must say that General Steyn is a liar. MR VISSER Very well. Let us hear what you have to say about Mr Adriaan Vlok because he maintains that the reference to the purchase of furniture from your fund, if this is intended to refer to him, he maintains that this is untrue. MR DE KOCK MR VISSER Which Minister? MR DE KOCK Minister Adriaan Vlok. MR VISSER Well, he denies this. MR DE KOCK I have no problem with that. I would expect that. MR VISSER Just tell the Committee please, did you hear that he wanted furniture or did you see that his furniture was not up to standard? How did it come about that you decided to purchase the furniture from the fund? MR DE KOCK I was approached by Brigadier Schoon and Louis Koekemoer worked with that aspect. I did not fill in the false claim, I did not purchase the furniture, I did not obtain the money. MR VISSER MR DE KOCK We will have to hear that from them. MR VISSER But, you see, you have once again dragged Brigadier Schoon into this story. And this differs from what you did in your evidence in chief. But let us just leave it at that. Can you think of any reason why furniture would be acquired for a Minister's office by means of false claims? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, that is not the reason for me. I simply provided the money and it was used for that purpose. The ministers will have to answer to that if they wish to be honest and that would include, among others, Colonel Koekemoer and Brigadier Schoon. MR VISSER Did Mr Vlok thank you for these furniture items which you would have purchased for him? MR DE KOCK No, we simply received a stiff handshake and a piece of meat to braai. MR VISSER For these items of furniture that you had purchased? MR DE KOCK No, just in general. MR VISSER Mr Willem Coetzee says that he was not involved with the establishment of a dead letter box at Krugersdorp. In bundle 2 on page 30, you refer to that. MR DE KOCK I think the word Willem Coetzee is incorrect, it was Colonel Jan Coetzee from Krugersdorp who was the previous commander of Vlakplaas. MR VISSER MR DE KOCK It was Colonel Rudi Crause. MR VISSER Requested from Brigadier Willem Schoon that you, Mr de Kock, supplied him with explosives to blow up the body of an ANC member who was killed in the cells in Mafikeng, do you recall that? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. The request was that we had to remove that person and to take his life which was done. MR VISSER Very well. Crause and Loots, and I am afraid I did not ask Mr Schoon while he was here, he also denies any knowledge of this incident. MR DE KOCK MR VISSER MR DE KOCK MR VISSER MR DE KOCK If they did play a role in there, because they would apply for amnesty. I think they want to keep their egos intact and Brigadier Schoon did this by applying for amnesty in 18 incidents, then he did not apply for everything, Chairperson. MR VISSER MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson, there would be two instances. The one is with the killing of ANC terrorists in Manzini and if I think of the names, it was Maris, Pantso and another person. And then there was a second instance where along with General Erasmus, General Gerrit Erasmus, Brigadier Schoon, Brigadier Oosthuizen and Willem Coetzee as the handler wanted to lure a group of people to Swaziland...(interjects) MR VISSER These are the seven members? MR DE KOCK Excuse me. MR VISSER These are the seven members? MR DE KOCK No, it was a kombi with more, I think there were ten or 12 but, then it was only a vehicle with three persons who were lured to there and we shot them there. MR VISSER NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chairperson, B Mohlaba on record. I have a few questions. Grant me a moment, please. Thank you. Mr de Kock, how did you know about the existence of Zweli Nyanda and his activities? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I read some security reports which came from Natal and the Eastern Transvaal. I want to imagine that there were some reports from Northern Natal and I was also informed by Colonel Cronje and amongst others, the Eastern Transvaal security branch. MR MOHLABA And you mentioned that the planning for the wiping out of Zweli Nyanda and the others was carried out in Pretoria as well as in Swaziland, did I get you correctly? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. Some of the planning took place at Vlakplaas and then as far as I know, the rest was done in Swaziland at the scene. MR MOHLABA The planning in Pretoria, are you able to tell us who was taking part in such planning? Was it in a particular forum where this issue was discussed? MR DE KOCK MR MOHLABA To put it differently, before you could move to Swaziland, to carry out this operation, I assume that some discussion was conducted at Pretoria before you could go out. Could you remember who participated in such a discussion, if any? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, what was discussed at Vlakplaas is what Colonel Cronje said where he spoke, Van Dyk spoke and I believe that Cronje also because I know the black members had to use false passports just like us. It was not a normal situation, the needs were not so many. We had limited needs. MR MOHLABA If you could recall, was there any responsibilities allocated to the people who were to move out to Swaziland for this operation? MR DE KOCK Yes Chairperson, Col Cronje was the responsible person for this operation. MR MOHLABA Was there a detailed discussion as to the type of rules which each individual was to play, that is amongst the group which went to Swaziland for this operation? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, no. We waited until we got to Swaziland before places or posts were appointed. In other words, who will stand on which corner, who will break the window, who will penetrate the house first. Those details were done at the hotel where we staying in Swaziland. MR MOHLABA And according to what was discussed at the hotel in Swaziland, how many people were to participate in this actual operation? Was it yourself and who else? MR DE KOCK CHAIRPERSON Can I interrupt for a moment? I think I understood from your evidence that you had not been a description of the house. You were merely told it was a house there and you were taken to it after you arrived in Swaziland? MR DE KOCK Chairperson...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON MR DE KOCK No Chairperson, the only information that we had was that it was a temporary structure. The panels, the walls were a type of asbestos, it was a removable thing, that is why we used stun grenades. CHAIRPERSON Had you been told that before you went? MR DE KOCK Yes, there was information. The size of the house was not available to us, whether it was a five bedroomed house or a two bedroomed house but, the information with regard to the structure was at our disposal because Colonel Cronje wanted to use M26 handgrenades which contained explosives and we would have been hit by the shrapnel if we did use them. MR MOHLABA De Kock, do you remember who provided you with the information regarding the location of this house where the attack was carried out? MR DE KOCK Please repeat, please. MR MOHLABA Do you remember the person who provided information about the exact location of the house in which the attack was carried out? MR DE KOCK Yes, it was warrant-officer Pienaar who pointed out the house. MR MOHLABA MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. I would accept that Mr Deetlefs must have told him. MR MOHLABA In this particular operation, were you assisted by way of information by other persons who were not necessarily members of the security forces or Askaris? That is it could be Swaziland citizens or other people within South Africa? MR DE KOCK Yes, Chairperson. Here we will refer to a source, never mind the nationality of the person. MR MOHLABA Are you saying that in this particular case, you had a source which provided you with information, which source was not security officer or an Askari, is that correct? MR DE KOCK MR MOHLABA Have you ever heard of the name Edward Lawrence or Cyril Raymond in relation to this particular incident? MR DE KOCK MR MOHLABA Was he present in this particular house when the operation was launched? MR DE KOCK MR MOHLABA Can you just expand on that? You said he moved with Mr Nyanda, at what stage? You referring to a moment when Mr Nyanda burst out of the bathroom window, are you referring to that moment? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, just before I went into the house, after the long burst that came from the other side of the house, I did indeed see somebody running in an easterly direction. In other words, away from the house where at that point I wanted to fired on this person and decided not to because I was not sure whether it was one of my members who ran there. Or whether he was following somebody else. MR MOHLABA MR DE KOCK MR MOHLABA Would one of your members run away from the scene of the target where you were supposed to attack? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. I did not say somebody ran away or that one of my members ran away. One of the members might have decided to follow somebody who was running away. But I could not take the risk, in that case I must allow that person to get away before I shoot one of my own people. And as I have said previously, policemen learn to think on the ground, think on your feet, one of our greatest problems at that stage was that we did not have internal radio communication at that stage. MR MOHLABA And was it dark within the vicinity where this attack was carried out? What was the source of light there? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, yes, it was dark. I want to imagine and I use the word imagine, that there was a street light or a street lamp there. It was quite a weak light though. MR MOHLABA Did you at the time or subsequently after the fact, did you identify the owner of the house in which these people were killed? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson, I did not. I continued with my normal services and I did not enquire about it afterwards. MR MOHLABA You have mentioned that at the debriefing after the attack, that is at the hotel, there was mention of a woman who was left unharmed, did I get you correctly? MR DE KOCK MR MOHLABA Was there any reason why this woman was not shot at? MR DE KOCK MR MOHLABA NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Ramula Patel. MR DE KOCK Chairperson, we departed with that knowledge. It was emphasised by Colonel Cronje that Head Quarters wants this group, Nyanda, McFadden and Lawrence, they wanted them wiped out. It was also emphasised in Swaziland at the hotel where we went. CHAIRPERSON In Pretoria and again in Swaziland? MR DE KOCK MS PATEL MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. That information was given to us here and this why the group was adjusted to the amount of men that there were. And those names were mentioned according to the information notes and the security reports that I read. I mean Mr Lawrence was just as active in the ANC ranks as Mr Nyanda. MS PATEL MR DE KOCK It was Mr Lawrence, Chairperson. MS PATEL Was this information relayed to you by Mr Cronje or was it given to you by Brigadier Schoon as well? Can you recall? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it was given to me by Colonel Cronje. MS PATEL Regarding Mr Deetlefs role, was he present at the planning meeting at Vlakplaas where the conspiracy to murder had taken place? MR DE KOCK MS PATEL Okay, so he was present at the second discussion in Swaziland? MR DE KOCK He was involved with the discussion that we had in Swaziland, yes. MS PATEL Was he involved in the reconnoitring of the target? Of the physical structure, that is? MR DE KOCK MS PATEL You have stated to us in your evidence in chief that certain members went back to the house on an hourly basis to check whether parties had returned or not. Was Mr Deetlefs one of those people who would have been involved in that part of the operation or the preparation rather? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. It was Mr Pienaar and Mr van Zweel. MS PATEL Regarding the information that you say must have come from Mr Pienaar. Do you have any idea what his sources would have been at that stage? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MS PATEL Can you tell us what specific information was given to you about Mr McFadden at the planning meeting? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, that he was a citizen of Swaziland, that he was a member of the ANC and that he was closely involved with the arrangements of safe houses. And then I have a memory that mention was made that he had contact with government officials in the Swazi government which made a valuable person of him. MS PATEL What kind of contacts would this have been with the government officials? To do what? CHAIRPERSON Contacts, I think he said. MS PATEL Oh, okay. MR DE KOCK MS PATEL Would this important? Or why was this a threat? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, in that sense, he was directly involved with the support of acts of terror in the Republic of South Africa, and he was a member of the ANC, according to that information he actively helped in the destabilisation and terrorism in the Republic of South Africa. MS PATEL MR DE KOCK Chairperson, I did not have any contact with Brigadier Schoon with regard to targets. It was conveyed to me by Colonel Cronje and it was only the three persons that were targeted. MS PATEL MR DE KOCK MS PATEL ADV SANDI Are you asking about Edward Lawrence? MS PATEL Yes. ADV SANDI Yes, he said Lawrence was as active as Nyanda. That is according to the information that he had obtained from Mr Cronje. CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct) MS PATEL ADV SANDI Well, he said that in his overall evidence to us. MS PATEL MR DE KOCK MS PATEL MR DE KOCK MS PATEL And what is the source of that information, Sir? MR DE KOCK Once again it was security reports not only from Ermelo but from places like Piet Retief and from Middelburg that he had taken over that role, that he was once again active. MS PATEL And who would have draft those reports? Do you have any idea? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, it would be members of the security branches. These were field workers and they would receive that information from near sources. MS PATEL Do you know who the authors of these security reports would have been that you refer to, sir? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. I cannot recall. MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR DE KOCK MR HATTINGH Is Mr Lawrence, the person who is referred to as Lawrence, the person who was killed during this operation? MR DE KOCK No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR SIBANYONI ADV SANDI MR DE KOCK ADV SANDI I get the impression that your instructions before you went out to attack these people, your instruction was to kill everyone who was there in that building, is that so? MR DE KOCK Chairperson, the emphasis given by Cronje was that this group was to be obliterated and, that would be Lawrence, Nyanda and McFadden, that group. If we had found Lawrence there, in the room or outside, we would have shot him dead, definitely. ADV SANDI And when you went back to the hotel, and Mr Cronje tells you that there was a lady who was hiding somewhere in the building and she had not been killed, were you not interested to find out as to what could have been the reason why she was not killed as well? MR DE KOCK ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. CHAIRPERSON MR DE KOCK He also asked me whether Lawrence was a source and I told him that he was not a source, that he was a very effective operative. And he once again said that we made a terrible mistake with him as well. And the idea that I had from this was that both had been murdered by the ANC. CHAIRPERSON If he was telling members of the South African Police Force, that he would tell them when the comrades were asleep, that he would unlock the doors and switch off the outside light for the attack, should other policemen be telling you to murder him? MR DE KOCK CHAIRPERSON Have any enquiries been made to verify this ANC information...(intervention) MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON ...as to whether he was acting for the South African Police Force at the time. MS PATEL MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Yes, that is if there were other people there that night. MR VISSER Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON He said he was as dangerous. MR VISSER Referring to Lawrence? CHAIRPERSON Lawrence, yes. MR VISSER MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Do you wish to ask any questions or are you going to investigate? MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON There is reference in the other documents we were given as A this morning, Nyanda A to the Statement to the TRC, dated August 1996 where they did list McFadden as a supporter of the ANC. MS PATEL Yes, my understanding was that that ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Do you want to make further enquiries and lead further reference tomorrow, you can do so. MS PATEL Okay. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR VISSER "...was commanded by Henry Chelisa and later Thami Zulu, Zweli Nyanda and then Cyril Raymonds - Fear." CHAIRPERSON INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Sorry, in 1983. Page 120 of the document we were given this morning, 12 May 1997 Submissions, it said that while deployed as a leading cadre in the Natal Military Machinery in Swaziland, he was arrested by the Swazi police. MR VISSER Yes, yes, there can be no doubt his status, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And he apparently gave them certain information. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Well, the enquiries I think, should be made from the Eastern Transvaal people, not from the people here today. MR VISSER Well, there are some Eastern Transvaal people here. ADV SANDI He must have been very lucky as well, this Mr Lawrence, not to be killed on this day. MS PATEL If I may, just for the record, honourable Chairperson, state that my problem with this is not the information as to what he might have been involved with subsequent to the operation. It goes to the question of what the specific instruction was and who was to be eliminated. CHAIRPERSON If what they say here is true, it seems very odd that he should have been picked as a target when he was the person who was assisting in the raid. MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Or the Swazis, Swaziland police. MR VISSER "Subject [which is now this person] died before implementing this next enemy plan. Details below." So, according to the ANC, he died, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But the next plan is the raid in 1983, Deaths of Zweli Nyanda and Keith McFadden. MR VISSER Yes, all right. CHAIRPERSON (Microphone in not on) INTERPRETER CHAIRPERSON Sorry, page 122, the third paragraph on the right-hand side. It sets out that he was the chief of communications at the same time as Zweli Nyanda was the chief of staff. So, he was, if one can believe this at all, a very active double agent. MR VISSER WITNESS EXCUSED