amntrans F J PIENAAR 1999-06-14 PRETORIA 13 AM 5014/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53428&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9905240623_pre_990614pt.htm CHAIRPERSON Who do we go to now? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairperson, the following witness is Mr Pienaar. This is Prinsloo on the record. F J PIENAAR (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, you are the applicant in this matter with regard to McFadden and Zweli Nyanda. MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO Your application appears on page 63 and goes until page 65 of the bundle, do you have this before you? MR PIENAAR Yes, I do. MR PRINSLOO And the facts with regard to this specific case, are contained in Annexure A which goes from page 66 to 68, is that correct? MR PIENAAR MR PRINSLOO And then your political background appears on page 69 and 70. MR PIENAAR That's correct. MR PRINSLOO And do you confirm those sections? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR PRINSLOO And, along with this, we have documentation which you have already studied, that is Exhibit A which is the General Background to Amnesty Applications. MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Do you reconcile yourself with this? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR PRINSLOO Apart from the section that deals with Botswana? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, at the time of these events, you were a warrant-officer stationed at Piet Retief. MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And you were primarily involved in actions in the Eastern Transvaal and in Swaziland. MR PIENAAR Yes. MR PRINSLOO And your period of service there, in the SAP security branch, also indicated that you had to deal with certain informers. MR PIENAAR Yes. MR PRINSLOO And the persons who are referred to here as Lawrence and Lawrence Fear and so forth, was he an informer of yours? MR PIENAAR No. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar, did you by means of informers, gather information which had to do with Zweli Nyanda and did you provide this information to your command structure in the Eastern Transvaal and was this information then sent through to Head Office in Pretoria. MR PIENAAR MR PRINSLOO With regard to Zweli Nyanda, did you have specific information with regard to his structure in Swaziland and his capacity there? MR PIENAAR Yes, I did. MR PRINSLOO Did you provide such information to your command structure and to the Head Office? MR PIENAAR Yes, I did. MR PRINSLOO MR PIENAAR He was the commander of the ANC in Natal from Swaziland. MR PRINSLOO Did that involve the planning of acts of terrorism in Natal? MR PIENAAR Yes, among others, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And in Eastern Transvaal? MR PIENAAR Not as much in Eastern Transvaal, Chairperson. It also involved the insurgency of trained persons into the Republic. MR PRINSLOO Was a person by the name of McFadden known to you at that point? MR PIENAAR At a later stage, he became known to me. MR PRINSLOO And this person called Lawrence, was he known to you? MR PIENAAR Yes, he was very well known to me. MR PRINSLOO And what position did he occupy in Swaziland? MR PIENAAR He was with Mr Nyanda and he was involved in the Natal Machinery. MR PRINSLOO And was he also one of the persons who was sought after by the security branch? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR PRINSLOO According to information which you provided to the security police head office, is it correct that during 1983, you were given an order to report to the Oshoek border post? MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And which transport did you use? MR PIENAAR I used my own State vehicle. MR PRINSLOO Was it a Mercedes Benz or a bakkie? MR PIENAAR It was a Cortina. MR PRINSLOO Was there any person who made use of a bakkie or a Mercedes Benz? MR PIENAAR No, there was nobody like that. MR PRINSLOO Did you have access along with these other person, as you have heard, with regard to the evidence of Mr de Kock, who along with Brigadier Cronje entered Swaziland? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR PRINSLOO Did you enter by means of a border post? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR PRINSLOO Did you use your legal passport? MR PIENAAR Yes, I used my own legal passport. MR PRINSLOO And was this specific house in which Zweli Nyanda would have been pointed out to Brigadier Cronje? MR PIENAAR Yes, it was pointed out to Brigadier Cronje. I was with Deetlefs. MR PRINSLOO And Colonel Deetlefs, was he in any way involved in the planning of the attack and the obliteration of these persons in Swaziland? MR PIENAAR When there was nobody at the house, Mr Deetlefs went through to Ermelo but he was no longer involved in anything. MR PRINSLOO The order and planning surrounding this action in Swaziland against this person, Zweli Nyanda, was this undertaken at a hotel in Swaziland? MR PIENAAR MR PRINSLOO And at that stage, was the planning according to your application the elimination of Zweli Nyanda and was the plan, as it appears on page 66 or your application, according to Lawrence? MR PIENAAR MR PRINSLOO What was that order? MR PIENAAR That the persons had to be eliminated. MR PRINSLOO And if there were other persons in the house? MR PIENAAR They should also be taken out. MR PRINSLOO And that house, according to the information that you had, was it a house which was generally used by the ANC or not? MR PIENAAR Yes, it was generally used by the ANC. MR PRINSLOO And was it clear to you that this was a transit house? MR PIENAAR Yes, that's correct. MR PRINSLOO MR PIENAAR Yes, Colonel De Kock was correct, it did take place that way. MR PRINSLOO And, with the action at the house itself, did you enter the house? MR PIENAAR Yes, I also entered the house. MR PRINSLOO And, before you entered the house, how did you obtain access to the house? MR PIENAAR Originally the plan was that Brigadier Cronje and Mr van Zweel would break the door open in order to obtain access. However they could not succeed in this, Colonel De Kock moved around from his position to the door and assisted with that. He managed to kick the door open and access was then obtained. MR PRINSLOO And, with regard to the rest of your planning after access had been obtained to the house? MR PIENAAR I moved with Brigadier Cronje into a room where there was a person who was standing next to the wall. It was quite dark in the room, we immediately opened fire on this person after which he fell down. I went out of the room upon which I found Mr de Kock. I also fired shots in the lounge after which we returned and then Colonel De Kock told me that there was blood leading to a bathroom. He moved in that direction. Somebody joined him there, I cannot recall who it was. I went to another bedroom where I began to search cupboards in which I also found a number of documents which I later handed over to Brigadier Cronje. Once again a shooting ensued, I moved outside, I found Colonel De Kock outside with a person who had collapsed on the sidewalk, the sidewalk which lead to the gate. The person was struggling to breathe. I shot him, I fired one shot to his head, just to ensure that he had died. I cannot imagine that I took any form of case or briefcase from the person at that stage. Everything was quite chaotic because things had not gone according to plan, the AKs had been used and they were not fitted with silencers and this created quite a noise. We then left. MR PRINSLOO The person who lay there, on the sidewalk which lead to the gate, who was that? MR PIENAAR That was Zweli Nyanda. MR PRINSLOO Could you identify him as he lay there? MR PIENAAR Yes, I could. MR PRINSLOO How was he known to you? MR PIENAAR He was known to me by photos and also by means of my own observation that I had undertaken on a previous occasion. MR PRINSLOO And these documents which you took from the cupboard, did you hand them over to Brigadier Cronje? MR PIENAAR I did. MR PRINSLOO Did you later receive any feedback about what the nature of those documents were? MR PIENAAR Yes, I received feedback that there had been very important documents among those papers which contained certain plans for attacks in Natal. MR PRINSLOO Now, this person that you shot inside the house along with Brigadier Cronje, did you know who that person was? MR PIENAAR Yes, the following day I was informed that it had been Mr McFadden. Mr McFadden was known to me by means of information, he was a known conspirator of the ANC, he was also involved in the transportation of trained MK members from Mozambique to Swaziland and from there to the RSA. MR PRINSLOO And did you notice a woman in the house at all? MR PIENAAR No, I did not notice any woman in the house. MR PRINSLOO Just a moment, please Chairperson. Now, Mr Pienaar, you have already given evidence that Lawrence was not an informer. But on that specific evening, the evidence has been that a person ran away, did you have any information about who that person was? MR PIENAAR Yes, on the following day I received information that among others, Mr Lawrence had run away from the house. He had been naked upon which he had run to a police station to go and report these events. MR PRINSLOO Now, this person who was known as Lawrence, according to a document which was submitted here, apparently by the family of Nyanda, there is a reference to the idea that Lawrence was an informer or would have given information. Do you have any knowledge of that? MR PIENAAR No, I have no such knowledge. MR PRINSLOO Now Mr van Zweel, did he enter the house at all? MR PIENAAR As far as I know Mr van Zweel did not enter the house. MR PRINSLOO Did he fire any shots? MR PIENAAR MR PRINSLOO Now, at the time of this action of yours, you were a member of the South African Police Force? MR PIENAAR MR PRINSLOO And you were a member of the National Party? MR PIENAAR MR PRINSLOO And did you at that stage, act within the execution of your duties whether that be express or sworn, as a member of the South African Police? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR PRINSLOO Did you, in any way, fire shots or attempt to fire shots at those persons for any financial benefit or gain? MR PIENAAR No. MR PRINSLOO And you are applying for the two murders of McFadden and Nyanda respectively? MR PIENAAR MR PRINSLOO And you also submit that you did not convey the true facts about the incident at that stage? MR PIENAAR MR PRINSLOO And you are also applying for malicious damage to property of the house. MR PIENAAR Yes MR PRINSLOO Or any other omission or offence which may emanate from this situation? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And for any unlawful deed which may emanate from this situation. MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH MR PIENAAR That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And, this was the type of action where, at several other instances you were also involved with during your career? MR PIENAAR That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH MR PIENAAR Yes. MR HATTINGH One may be aware of the people around or that there are other people shooting elsewhere. You may see who it is but your attention is not drawn to the members of your unit but rather to the people whom you have to attack. MR PIENAAR That is correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH MR PIENAAR In certain instances, yes. MR HATTINGH MR PIENAAR MR HATTINGH MR PIENAAR Yes. MR HATTINGH One can almost say that at times chaos reigns because shots are fired and stun grenades are thrown and all these type of things, not true? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR HATTINGH This is all activities which are not progressive for reliable observation under the circumstances. MR PIENAAR MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR KNIGHT Thank you, Mr Chairman, similarly I have no questions on behalf of Nofomela. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT MS VAN DER WALT Louisa Van Der Walt for the record, no questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT MR WAGENER Jan Wagener, Mr Chairman, I have no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER MR VISSER Louis Visser, Chairperson, I have no questions, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Were you present at the hotel when this operation was planned? We heard evidence by Mr de Kock that part of the operation was planned in Pretoria and also in Swaziland, were you present when any planning was done in Swaziland? MR PIENAAR I was present during the planning in Swaziland, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA Could you remember specifically who was to be wiped out in that particular house? MR PIENAAR Our knowledge was that the house was occupied by Mr Nyanda as well as Mr Lawrence. They would have been killed but, as well as any other person who was present in the house because it was regarded as a transit house for trained MK members to come to South Africa. MR MOHLABA And was Mr de Kock present when this discussion took place? MR PIENAAR He was present, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA Was Lawrence specifically mentioned by name to be a target, to be eliminated on that particular day? MR PIENAAR Definitely, Chairperson. As I say, it was known that Mr Lawrence and Mr Nyanda occupied the house together. He was definitely one the targets there. MR MOHLABA So the known occupants of that particular house was Mr Nyanda and Mr Lawrence according to the information you had at that moment? MR PIENAAR MR MOHLABA And these two people were the people who you intended to wipe out, is that correct? MR PIENAAR MR MOHLABA And there was a mention of a woman who was in that house at the time of the attack who was left unharmed. Do you know anything about that? MR PIENAAR As I have said, I did not see the woman. I only heard later that there was a woman who was in the house. MR MOHLABA And that you heard the debriefing meeting at the hotel, is that correct? MR PIENAAR MR MOHLABA And can you remember who gave you the information about this woman? MR PIENAAR MR MOHLABA Was there any reason furnished why this woman was not killed? MR PIENAAR No reason was furnished, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON (Indistinct)are you asking whether he raised the question at this meeting? MR MOHLABA Certainly, Chairperson. Why was this...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON And to why the person...(intervention) MR MOHLABA MR PIENAAR I did not ask anybody why she was left out, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA MR PIENAAR Because I did not see the woman, and I did not ask any questions about her. MR MOHLABA You also mentioned that you subsequently learned that a person ran away from that house and you later learned that that person could be Lawrence, did I get you correctly? MR PIENAAR That is correct. I knew that somebody had run away from the house and the following day I established that it was indeed Mr Lawrence. MR MOHLABA And did you see this person running away? MR PIENAAR I did not see him, Chairperson because I was inside the house. I could not see what was going on outside from where I was. MR MOHLABA And who told you of this person running away? That there was somebody who ran away? Can you remember? MR PIENAAR It was later discussed at the hotel and, as I say, the following morning, I established that it was Mr Lawrence who had run away from the house. CHAIRPERSON MR PIENAAR MR SIBANYONI Excuse me, Mr Mohlaba. How were you able to establish on the following morning that the person who ran away was Lawrence? MR PIENAAR It was in co-operation with the Swaziland police where we discovered that it was Mr Lawrence who arrived at the police station and told them about an attack on a house. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Mohlaba. MR MOHLABA MR SIBANYONI Maybe let me take this opportunity. Mr Pienaar, the person who was your informer, without mentioning his nationality, was he staying in Swaziland or was that person staying the Republic of South Africa? MR PIENAAR He lived in Swaziland, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. ADV SANDI Just one thing which did not sound very clear to me, you say the Swaziland police told you that the person who had escaped was Lawrence? MR PIENAAR ADV SANDI How did they communicate that information to you? MR PIENAAR Telephonically, Chairperson. I called a person who informed me. ADV SANDI Was that person a member of the Swaziland police, I take it? MR PIENAAR He was a member of the police, yes. ADV SANDI How would you describe the relationship and the Swaziland police and the SA police where you were stationed? MR PIENAAR I would say it was very good, Chairperson. ADV SANDI Would it have gone as far as the South African security police having informers within the ranks of the Swaziland police? MR PIENAAR It is indeed so, Chairperson. ADV SANDI This person you were contacting from the Swaziland police, in what capacity was he or she talking to you? MR PIENAAR As a friend. ADV SANDI Was he or she your informer? MR PIENAAR No, Chairperson, it was an acquaintance of mine which I built up with some time but, it was not a source. ADV SANDI Thank you. Thank you, Mr Mohlaba. MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chairperson. There was a mention of some planning having been done in Pretoria. Were you part of the Pretoria planning or you only participated in the second part in Swaziland? MR PIENAAR I only participated in Swaziland, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA Could you remember who provided information about the exact location of the house where this attack was to be carried out? MR PIENAAR Colonel Deetlefs pointed this house out to myself and Colonel Cronje. MR MOHLABA And, do you by any chance know how the Colonel got that information? MR PIENAAR No, unfortunately I do not. MR MOHLABA NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Ramula Patel. Sir, can you tell us at the meeting in Swaziland where you were present, the planning meeting, how many targets were specifically identified? MR PIENAAR There were two persons, namely Mr Nyanda and Mr Lawrence. And as well as any other person who might have been in the house. It could not be determined how many people there would be, it might have been four or five but, mention was made specifically of Mr Nyanda and Mr Lawrence. MS PATEL MR HATTINGH MS PATEL All right, yes. No, then I misunderstood his evidence. Sorry, I withdraw that. Was there any mention made of Mr McFadden at that planning meeting? MR PIENAAR As far as I know, no. MS PATEL The information about Mr McFadden, according to your memory, was that only gained after the operation? MR PIENAAR No, Mr Chairperson, it was known that Mr McFadden was a conspirator and assisted the ANC but, after the operation I heard that Mr McFadden had indeed been killed in the house. MS PATEL MR PIENAAR No, Chairperson. MS PATEL And your information about Lawrence, was that conveyed to Brigadier Cronje? MR PIENAAR All information which was received was sent through the correct channels to head office and, amongst others, Brigadier Cronje might have had insight to this information. MS PATEL MR PIENAAR I was not present when Brigadier Cronje gave evidence so I would not know. MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON MS PATEL MR PRINSLOO MS PATEL Or questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson. You in the reports that you sent up mentioned Lawrence in the report. The report that was sent to Eastern Transvaal which was sent through to Head Office. MR PIENAAR That is correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO No further questions, thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON In your application you say, at page 68, paragraph 7 MR PIENAAR CHAIRPERSON Can you remember where you got that information from? MR PIENAAR This was through information which several sources conveyed as well as later persons who were arrested and how were interrogated who gave us this information. I was never certain thereof. CHAIRPERSON It is quite clear from the document we got and from what you learnt that the ANC suspected him of being the traitor, a double agent. MR PIENAAR CHAIRPERSON One other matter, we have had it in other applications as I think you have raised it again here. Was the position that if you raided a transit house, you had to expect that there would be armed men in it? MR PIENAAR That was always the case. Any attack which was launched at a base or a transit house, it would be expected that the occupants will be armed. CHAIRPERSON MR PIENAAR CHAIRPERSON And that was the normal practice either way? MR PIENAAR ADV SANDI No questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not switched on) We will adjourn till 9h30 tomorrow morning. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS