amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-15 PRETORIA 14 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53429&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9905240623_pre_990615pt.htm F J PIENAAR: (s.u.o.) MR PINSLOO Mr Chairman, we concluded the evidence of Pienaar yesterday, may he be excused? MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, if I may place on record, the sister of the later Keith McFadden, Patricia McFadden is present here today. I've had an opportunity to consult with her. There are one or two aspects that I feel I need to put to Mr Pienaar, with your leave. I request that I'm allowed to re-open my cross-examination of Mr Pienaar. CHAIRPERSON I think we anticipated you were going to ask questions on some aspects, perhaps not on this aspect. I can see no objection to your clarifying this though. I take it Mr du Plessis knows that we're continuing today. MR PRINSLOO That's correct, Mr Chairman. Apparently he's trying to be excused from where he is presently engaged, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Mr Pienaar, you stated yesterday in your evidence to us that there were two targets in a sense that were -Sir, are you ready? Can you - okay fine. ... that there were two targets that were identified, one was Edgar and the other one was Mr Nyanda, and that no mention was made of Mr McFadden, at the planning stage, is that correct? MR PIENAAR That is correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. Well Mr Cronje in his evidence to us also mentioned a person by the name of Cecil, who they had anticipated would be present with Mr Nyanda. MR PIENAAR Cyril is the same person as Mr Lawrence. That is an MK name which he used. MS PATEL Well in terms - it wasn't Cyril, Sir, it was Cecil, unless the translation was incorrect. MR PIENAAR No, Chairperson, I know Mr Lawrence's MK name as Cyril and not Cecil. I do not know anybody by the name of Cecil. MS PATEL He also states - Mr Cronje also states that the instruction from Brigadier Schoon was that Mr Nyanda was to be taken out and that the instruction was that they go to - well he goes to Swaziland to establish where Nyanda resided and where he operated from and then to eliminate him, and then subsequent to that, information had come that Cecil or Cyril was also involved with Mr Nyanda, and that this information was then relayed back to Brigadier Schoon. MR PIENAAR I don't know what the nature of the discussion was between Mr Schoon and Mr Cronje. I don't know what the orders were which Brigadier Schoon gave to Mr Cronje. MS PATEL Okay. The information about Cecil however, or Cyril, would that have come from you? MR PIENAAR The information about the persons who resided in the house, namely Mr Nyanda and Mr Lawrence, was information that we gathered. MS PATEL Alright. And this is from your source within the Swazi Police, or was this from someone else? MR PIENAAR It was gathered by means of informers. MS PATEL The questions was Sir, was it from sources within the Swazi Police or from someone else? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairperson, the witness has clearly stated that this was obtained from informers and his evidence yesterday was that the Swaziland Police were not his informers and it is clear that it was an informer who was not a member of the Swaziland Police. MS PATEL With respect Honourable Chairperson, the applicant has also informed us in his evidence yesterday that he was informed by somebody that he knew within the Swaziland Police, as to what had happened to Edgar, subsequent to the operation. CHAIRPERSON Yes, he said he told them that he'd gone to the police and reported the attack on the house. MR PIENAAR That is correct, and I liaised as a friend and I received the information there. MS PATEL My instructions are to request from you Sir, the detail of who this person is that you liaised with in the Swazi Police. MR PIENAAR I cannot do that. MS PATEL You realise of course Sir, that one of the grounds upon which amnesty can be denied is if you do not make full disclosure to us? CHAIRPERSON Is it of interest in his amnesty application, to know of a policeman who in those days was assisting the South African Police, but who, if that was now disclosed, might find himself in grave difficulties? MS PATEL With respect Honourable Chairperson, it is of interest to the McFadden family, as to who specifically in the Swaziland Police was assisting or colluding with the applicants here. MR PRINSLOO With respect, Mr Chairman, these facts, how are they relevant to this particular issue? It's an issue that occurred outside the borders of South Africa. As you indicated Mr Chairman, with respect, this person's life may be in jeopardy and how is it going to take this matter further? Is this in dispute, that this information was relayed to Mr Pienaar by a member of the Swazi Police? Is there such instruction which my learned friend Ms Patel now has from the particular interested party? I don't understand these particular instructions. But the relevant facts here, Mr Chairman, with respect, does not pertain to such an issue which is now being canvassed by Ms Patel. ADV SANDI I may have misunderstood Mr Pienaar on this, but I thought what he said yesterday, concerning this person from the Swazi Police, this person was not really an informer but someone who had relayed the information to him that Lawrence had run up to the police station to report what had happened. Now I don't know what your difficulty is, I mean if you have to say who this person is. He was telling you that Lawrence had gone to report the incident at the police station. We're not talking here about an informer. MR PIENAAR It is a friend of mine, Chairperson, and I cannot say here that it went through to Swaziland to his heads and that he told me what happened there on that particular night. ADV SANDI You didn't have a mischievous - if one can put it that way, a mischievous relationship with this person, it was just a friend. What harm, what jeopardy would be suffered by this person if you just say it was so and so who was a friend of mine? MR PIENAAR This was information from his work to our side, and I'm not prepared to divulge his name. ADV SANDI But he was not your informer. MR PIENAAR No, he was not an informer. MS PATEL Do you have any knowledge as to whether the Nyanda house was raided prior to, raided by the Swazi Police, immediately prior or a day or two prior to this incident? MR PIENAAR No, Chairperson. MS PATEL My instructions are, Honourable Chairperson, that Keith McFadden had informed his brother, Gavin, that their house was in fact raided one or two days prior to this operation taking place and that all the weapons that they might have had on them, was in fact removed. MR PIENAAR If that was so, the Swazi Police would definitely not only have taken the weapons, but they would also have arrested the persons. MS PATEL Well we also know that the Swazi Police had a very good relationship with the Security Branch from here, not so? MR PIENAAR Yes, there was a friendship. MS PATEL Is it not so, Sir, that there was some measure of co-operation between yourselves and the Swazi Police in planning this operation? MR PIENAAR As far as I know there was not anything like that. MS PATEL Are you in a position to dispute it though, if there was some co-operation perhaps between someone else from the group and ... MR PIENAAR As I've said, I know nothing about that. MS PATEL So you're not in a position to dispute that? MR PRINSLOO With respect, Mr Chairman, if the witness is unable to say he bears any knowledge about that, how can he dispute that or acknowledge it? He doesn't know. It's not a fair question, with respect, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON It's not a question, it's just a statement of fact, isn't it? He says "I have no knowledge of it" It therefore is obvious he cannot dispute it. MR PRINSLOO As you please, Mr Chairman, that's correct. MS PATEL Sir, can you tell us - sorry, I was distracted. The information that Mr de Kock gave to us yesterday regarding Mr McFadden being a target at the planning meeting, you deny that. MR PIENAAR Mr McFadden was not mentioned during the planning stage, it was only Mr Nyanda and Mr Lawrence. MS PATEL Okay. You have no idea how it - okay, can I ask you, how many members besides those who applied for amnesty, how many were you in your group, present at the house that evening? MR PIENAAR Everybody who has been mentioned, Cronje, Colonel de Kock, me, Rorich, van Dyk, van Zweel, Nofomela and Bosigu. MS PATEL How big is this house? MR PIENAAR Please repeat the question. MS PATEL How big is the house, the premises? MR PIENAAR It is the usual three-bedroom residence, it's not very big. It was a prefab house. MS PATEL Alright. Given that there were nine people there and that the premises were an average size, it's strange that one person was allowed to escape, not so? MR PIENAAR It is not strange. As I have already stated and as it appeared from Colonel de Kock's affidavit, the problem was the door. Colonel de Kock had to desert his position in order to help to open the door, and if that problem hadn't arisen, then nobody would have escaped. MS PATEL When you had discussions with your friend from the Swazi Police, the day after the incident, can you recall whether there was any discussion as to whether this person had gone to the house as well, or whether the information was just simply that Cecil had come to the police station and had reported the incident and that was the end of that? MR PIENAAR No, I didn't ask whether he himself had been there, he only said that Mr Lawrence had arrived at the police station. I don't know if he himself had been there. MS PATEL Did the source by any chance say how long after the operation Edgar had reported or made a report to the Swazi Police? MR PIENAAR No, Chairperson. MS PATEL And if I remember correctly, did the source say to you that Cecil was unclothed at the time, that he didn't have any clothes on? MR PIENAAR That is correct, he was naked. MS PATEL Okay. ADV SANDI If I can come in here. Is it your who phoned this Swazi Police friend of yours or is it he who initially phoned you? How did it come about that you ended talking on the phone? MR PIENAAR I phoned them. ADV SANDI Why did you decide to phone them at the police station? MR PIENAAR I telephoned to have a chat and to find out what had happened regarding the incident. ADV SANDI Thank you. MS PATEL Did you by any chance speak to this person prior to the operation, to get information about Mr Nyanda? MR PIENAAR No. MS PATEL Because my instructions are that Edgar Hillary who was the Commissioner of Police in Swaziland at the time, had called Dorothy McFadden who is the mother of Keith McFadden, on the day of the incident and had said to her that: "I told you and I told your son that he was going get it and now you see he's got it." MR PIENAAR I don't know about that. MS PATEL It would seem however from this comment, that at least at that level they were aware of the risk of Mr McFadden being killed, not so? MR PIENAAR I think it was a risk for any person, even for us as well, to go to a neighbouring state and execute an operation. Unfortunately, you may have encountered a situation where the other person fired a shot and killed you. That was the situation for both sides. MS PATEL My instructions are also to place on record that Mr McFadden had at least six bullet holes in his head. MR PIENAAR I don't know, Chairperson, we fired shots, Brigadier Cronje and I. I don't know how many of those shots hit the victim, I don't know anything about that. MS PATEL And that he had numerous other bullet wounds on the rest of his body. MR PIENAAR That is possible, I don't know how many shots were fired. MS PATEL Can you recall how many shots you fired? MR PIENAAR No. MS PATEL What type of weapon did you use? MR PIENAAR If I recall correctly I had a hand carbine. CHAIRPERSON Was that an automatic weapon? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MS PATEL Alright. And so as to refresh my memory, he was shot in the bedroom, not so? MR PIENAAR That's correct. MS PATEL Alright. That was the same bedroom where the woman was in? MR PIENAAR I don't know where the woman was. MS PATEL Mr Cronje said to us in his amnesty hearing that she was in the same room as where Mr McFadden was shot. MR PIENAAR I don't about that, I simply heard later that there had been a woman in the house. I myself did not see her. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL MR SIBANYONI Mr Pienaar, I heard you saying you used your passport when you entered Swaziland. MR PIENAAR That's correct. MR SIBANYONI If I heard Mr de Kock very well, in his evidence he said they crossed the border at a place other than at a border post. MR PIENAAR That was after the incident, that was when the border was already closed, the border gates. MR SIBANYONI Okay. This friend of yours, was it a person who from time to time would give your ...(indistinct) information? MR PIENAAR Chairperson, you could call it information, perhaps about person who had been arrested, who would give their names, whether they had any weapons and so forth, but it was never information about operations as such. MR SIBANYONI He's not the person you were talking about when I asked you where did your source live, when you said the source lived in Swaziland, is that a different person? MR PIENAAR No, those were the informers living in Swaziland and this policeman also lived in Swaziland. ADV SANDI Mr Pienaar, you were based at Piet Retief, not so? MR PIENAAR That's correct. ADV SANDI Did you have a person amongst yourselves with the name, Captain van Niekerk? Did you have such a person there? MR PIENAAR No, not with us. ADV SANDI Did you have a person by the name of van der Walt? MR PIENAAR No. ADV SANDI And in the other neighbouring towns, towns nearby, did they amongst themselves any persons with such names? MR PIENAAR In the Eastern Transvaal, Ermelo and Middelburg, there was no Captain van Niekerk as far as I can recall, neither was there a van der Walt. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR PRINSLOO No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO