amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-15 PRETORIA 14 J E W VAN ZWEEL 5017/97 MURDER OF K McFADDEN AND Z NYANDA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53430&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9905240623_pre_990615pt.htm MR PRINSLOO The next applicant is Mr van Zweel, Chairperson. MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, if I may just at this point. I indicated yesterday that there might be one or two extra things that I would like to put to Mr de Kock. I'm not sure whether we should do that now or proceed. It was just basically relating to Brigadier Cronje's version to us. CHAIRPERSON Well I think we're all in your hands. Is it likely to be anything that people would want other witnesses to deal with? MS PATEL No, not really. CHAIRPERSON Well what do you suggest? MR HATTINGH We have no objection to him being recalled at any stage, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well I think we'll deal with Mr van Zweel. J E W VAN ZWEEL (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Mr van Zweel, you are the applicant in this matter and you have applied for amnesty with regard to this incident which had taken place in Swaziland, is that correct? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Your application appears on page 77 to 79, this is the written part. And the facts appear as Annexure A, from pages 80 to 82, and then the political background appears as Annexure B, from page 83 to page 90. MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Mr van Zweel, you have also had insight to the general background, which forms part of Exhibit A of these proceedings, is that correct? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct. MR PRINSLOO And do you reconcile yourself therewith, except for the parts that have regard to Lesotho and Botswana? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Mr van Zweel, on page 80 of your application, the second paragraph, the fourth line. In the second paragraph you say "Brigadier Cronje and Colonel E de Kock arrived at our office at Ermelo." Is that correct? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, yes - no, Chairperson, it was our office at Oshoek. MR PRINSLOO So you ask that it be amended, that is was the sub-office of Ermelo at Oshoek. Do you otherwise confirm the correctness of your application? MR VAN ZWEEL Yes, I do, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Mr van Zweel, you have heard the evidence of Mr de Kock, as well as that of your colleague, the other applicant Mr Pienaar. MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO That you had rendezvoused at Oshoek and later at a hotel in Swaziland received orders from Brigadier Cronje. MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And what was the instruction at the hotel? MR VAN ZWEEL That we had to go to a certain house in Swaziland and eliminate Mr Nyanda and Mr Lawrence and all other persons who were in the house. MR PRINSLOO At that stage you were a member of the Security Branch, as a Warrant Officer stationed at Ermelo, is that correct? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Was the person, Mr Zweli Nyanda - in the investigations which you done, was he known to you? MR VAN ZWEEL Yes, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And the person known as Lawrence, was he ever mentioned to you or was he known to you? MR VAN ZWEEL Yes, he was known to me. MR PRINSLOO And both those persons were members of the ANC. MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO This particular evening, what would your duty be at this house? MR VAN ZWEEL I would go along with Brigadier Cronje and open the front door, but we could not succeed. Colonel de Kock came around, kicked the door open and they moved in. MR PRINSLOO Did you enter the house yourself? MR VAN ZWEEL No, I went around the corner and stood at a door. MR PRINSLOO Did you fire any shots in the house? MR VAN ZWEEL No, I did not fire any shots, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Did you hear that shots were fired inside the house and in the vicinity of the house? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Did you see that a person ran away from the house? MR VAN ZWEEL No, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And in the position where you found yourself, was it possible that the person could run away and that you could not observe? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And in this action, did you hear later that persons were killed or not? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson MR PRINSLOO And who were those people? MR VAN ZWEEL It was Mr Nyanda and Mr McFadden. MR PRINSLOO And later, did anybody convey to you that a person had escaped from there? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And who was that person? MR VAN ZWEEL That was Mr Lawrence. MR PRINSLOO And who gave that information to you? MR VAN ZWEEL Mr Pienaar told me. MR PRINSLOO Was any information conveyed to you that this person Lawrence at a later stage, according to the ANC, was regarded as a spy? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Who told you this? MR VAN ZWEEL Mr Pienaar told me. MR PRINSLOO Mr Pienaar at the time of this incident was stationed at Piet Retief. MR VAN ZWEEL Yes, it is a sub-branch of Ermelo. MR PRINSLOO You went out on one specific evening after this incident, did you reconcile yourself with the fact that you are making yourself guilty of murder, the murder of Nyanda and McFadden? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And did you also realise that by entering Swaziland, and that you were in possession of arms which were issued to you for an "illegal purpose"? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And at the time of this operation, did you act as a member of the South African Police, did you act as such? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And did you believe that your action was within your powers? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And at that stage you were a member of the National Party? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO At the time of this action, did you act to protect the government and the National Party, who were the government? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Did you receive any benefit from this operation? MR VAN ZWEEL No, I did not, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO And you acted under the instructions of Brigadier Cronje? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson, Hattingh on record. Mr van Zweel, I assume that there were no lights switched on in the house? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Can you recall whether there were any street lamps in the vicinity of the house? MR VAN ZWEEL There was a dull street lamp on the one side, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH But once you moved into the house, it must have been dark? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And things happened very quickly. MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Shots were fired with automatic weapons? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And just for the record, an automatic weapon, once you pull the trigger it shoots continuously and it could empty a magazine within a few seconds? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And you don't have any control as long as you press the trigger down, you don't have any control as to the amount of shots that you fire? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH What weapon were you armed with, Mr van Zweel? MR VAN ZWEEL I had a Scorpion. MR HATTINGH You heard that Mr de Kock said that this was a weapon of small calibre and it does not have great velocity. MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Mr de Kock's recollection was that you went into the house and fired shots with this Scorpion. MR VAN ZWEEL I did not go into the house, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did you fire any shots with the Scorpion? MR VAN ZWEEL None at all, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So the whole night you did not fire a single shot? MR VAN ZWEEL I didn't fire any shots, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH After the incident, Mr van Zweel, did you go back to the hotel? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And there was some kind of reflection held there, is that correct? MR VAN ZWEEL It was very quick, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was it then known who were the persons that were killed in the house, the other person, Mr McFadden? MR VAN ZWEEL No, it was only that - Mr Nyanda I saw when I went to the street side where the cars were parked. Mr Nyanda lay close to where the cars were, he was already dead then. MR HATTINGH And some of the other members and the group in general, did they not report that another person had been killed in the house? MR VAN ZWEEL Mention was made that another person was shot, yes. MR HATTINGH But none of you at that stage knew who it was? MR VAN ZWEEL No, we did not know who it was. MR HATTINGH When did you find out who this person was? MR VAN ZWEEL Later the following day we heard who this person was. MR HATTINGH Where were you when you heard this? MR VAN ZWEEL I was at the office. MR HATTINGH The office, in which town? MR VAN ZWEEL In Ermelo. MR HATTINGH And if I understand you correctly, Ermelo is the headquarters of the Security Branch in that area, is that correct? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Piet Retief was a sub-branch thereof, is that correct? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And which was the one that you were attached to? MR VAN ZWEEL Oshoek. MR HATTINGH Oshoek. Is Oshoek also a sub-branch of Ermelo? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH There where you heard in Ermelo - I mean you say you heard this from Mr Pienaar? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Were any other security policemen present who had participated in the action when Mr Pienaar told you? MR VAN ZWEEL No, it was late that afternoon, it was only myself and Mr Pienaar. MR HATTINGH Did you have an opportunity later to work with Mr de Kock, after that incident? MR VAN ZWEEL Yes. MR HATTINGH Is it possible that at a later stage when you worked together you might have discussed the Nyanda matter and that mention was made that Mr McFadden was killed during that incident? MR VAN ZWEEL I cannot recall anything like that, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH This incident took place 16 years ago and one's memory might be vague, is that correct? MR VAN ZWEEL Yes, Chairperson, it was a long time ago. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman, Julian Knight on behalf of implicated person, Nofomela. No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR KNIGHT MS VAN DER WALT Louisa van der Walt. No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR WAGENER Jan Wagener, Mr Chairman. No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER MR VISSER Visser on record, Mr Chairman. I have no questions to this witness, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA B Mohlaba on record. I've got a few questions. Mr van Zweel, at the time of this incident you were stationed at Ermelo, is that correct? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA And you mentioned that Brigadier van Zyl and Mr de Kock arrived at the Oshoek office, which was a branch office, did I get you correctly? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO No, not van Zyl, Mr Chairman. MR VAN ZWEEL It was not Mr van Zyl, it was Mr Cronje. MR MOHLABA Thank you. And this meeting, was it arranged or did they arrive without notifying you? MR VAN ZWEEL They arrived there at Oshoek and from Oshoek we went to a hotel in Swaziland. MR MOHLABA My question was, was there a prior arrangement that you're going to meet at Oshoek, then move to a hotel, or was it just, it just happened without any prior arrangement? MR VAN ZWEEL No, we were told to go to Oshoek and from Oshoek we took our car, we left Mr Rorich's car at Oshoek and we went along with Mr Pienaar to the hotel in Swaziland. MR MOHLABA And can you tell us who told you to go to Oshoek? MR VAN ZWEEL We just received instructions from our commander to go to Oshoek. MR MOHLABA And who is this commander? MR VAN ZWEEL Our commander was Mr Deetlefs at Ermelo. MR MOHLABA Was any reason furnished to you why you should go to Oshoek and who you were to meet there? MR VAN ZWEEL It was told to us that we will receive an instruction there as soon as all of us were there. MR MOHLABA And you subsequently moved to a hotel in Swaziland, do you remember the name of the hotel? MR VAN ZWEEL Is it necessary for me to mention the hotel's name? I can, it's the Yensan Hotel in Swaziland. MR MOHLABA And how many of you were at the hotel at that moment? MR VAN ZWEEL Everybody that was named here, Brigadier Cronje, Mr de Kock, Mr Pienaar, Mr van Dyk, Mr Rorich, myself and two Askaris. MR MOHLABA And this - rather let me put it differently. Did you know of the existence of Zweli Nyanda and did you know of his activities before you were told to go to Oshoek? MR VAN ZWEEL I did, because I was stationed at the Security Branch in Ermelo. MR MOHLABA And what did you know about him? MR VAN ZWEEL That he was the Commander of the Natal Machinery. MR MOHLABA And before you moved to the hotel, there was no, you received no instructions or you did not view him as somebody who should be eliminated. MR VAN ZWEEL Discussions took place in the hotel in Swaziland. MR MOHLABA And after this ...(intervention) ADV SANDI Mr Mohlaba, I thought you were asking him if he viewed Mr Nyanda as a person who should be killed, before the discussion took place, but I'm not sure if he answered your question. Before this discussion, Mr van Zweel, did you view Mr Nyanda as someone who should be killed for his activities? MR VAN ZWEEL No. MR MOHLABA And after this operation was conducted, did all of you go back to the hotel? MR VAN ZWEEL Please repeat that question. MR MOHLABA After the operation was launched, did you go back to the hotel? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA And that everybody who was involved in this operation went back to the hotel. MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA Did you hold any discussions, that is discussions ...(intervention) MR VAN ZWEEL We immediately prepared and we departed and we went through the fence at Oshoek. MR MOHLABA There was no discussion about the operation itself? MR VAN ZWEEL Not as far as I can recall, Mr Chairperson. MR MOHLABA And just tell us, when to the hotel, did you go to different rooms or were you all in one place, all of you who came for the operation? MR VAN ZWEEL As far as I can recall, we were all together in one room. MR MOHLABA So if there were any discussions which were engaged in, you would have been quite aware that there were certain things that were discussed, is that not so? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA Don't you remember a mention having been made of a lady who was inside the house, who was not killed? MR VAN ZWEEL No, that I only heard later. As I said Chairperson, I did not know that there was a woman in the house. At a later stage I heard. I can't remember whether it was a day or two afterwards that we heard that there was a woman in the house. MR MOHLABA And do you remember who you heard that from? MR VAN ZWEEL I cannot recall, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA And did you not hear this at the hotel? MR VAN ZWEEL No. MR MOHLABA And about the person who is escaped, did you hear anything about that? MR VAN ZWEEL This I only heard later from Mr Pienaar. MR MOHLABA And when late, was it at the hotel or at ... MR VAN ZWEEL No, it was after the hotel. MR MOHLABA ...(indistinct) when you were back in South Africa? MR VAN ZWEEL Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA And where was this discussion held? MR VAN ZWEEL If I recall correctly, it was at Oshoek or at Ermelo. I cannot recall precisely I heard that the man had escaped, because everything took place very quickly. MR MOHLABA Yes, I mean your discussion where it was brought to your knowledge that there's somebody who escaped. Where was - was that held at Ermelo? MR VAN ZWEEL Yes. MR MOHLABA Where precisely in Ermelo was it, at a police station? MR VAN ZWEEL At our offices, at the security offices in Ermelo. MR MOHLABA And that was brought to your attention when you were discussing this operation, or can you just explain to us how was this thing brought to your attention. MR VAN ZWEEL We discussed it there in the office. I cannot recall correctly, it has been many years ago. I cannot recall correctly how it came about that it was mentioned, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA And can you recall the number of person who were present when this was brought to your attention, was it the two of you or was somebody else present? MR VAN ZWEEL It could only have been the two of us, nobody else was there. I don't know, I cannot recall. MR MOHLABA As far as you can recall, was there a forum where this operation or the success thereof was discussed? MR VAN ZWEEL No, Chairperson, I can't recall. MR MOHLABA And these weapons which were used to carry out this attack, did you carry them from South Africa on the night or day when you passed through the border gate to Swaziland? MR VAN ZWEEL Please repeat that question. MR MOHLABA The weapons which were used to carry out this operation, did you have, were they conveyed from South Africa into Swaziland on the day or the night when you passed through to the hotel in Swaziland? MR VAN ZWEEL I think Mr de Kock explained that, that the weapons were hidden. I don't know where it was hidden and how it got there. MR MOHLABA So the weapons were only supplied to you when you arrived in Swaziland, is that correct? MR VAN ZWEEL That is correct, yes Chairperson. MR MOHLABA Where exactly in Swaziland were they distributed to you, whilst you were in the hotel? MR VAN ZWEEL At the Yensan Hotel. MR MOHLABA If the Chairperson can bear with me. Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Thank you, Sir. It's Ramula Patel on record. Sir, regarding Mr McFadden - or before we get to Mr McFadden, what were your general duties at that time, not in respect of this specific operation, but your general duties? MR VAN ZWEEL My work? MS PATEL Yes. MR VAN ZWEEL I operated in Swaziland as well as a security policeman, gathering of intelligence for the South African Government, and I handled sources in Swaziland as well. MS PATEL Okay. So did you assist Mr Pienaar in the gathering of information for this operation? MR VAN ZWEEL Mr Pienaar and I worked together at many times. MS PATEL Okay. The question was, did you assist Mr Pienaar in the gathering of information for this operation? MR VAN ZWEEL No, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. Regarding Mr McFadden, given that you were working in that area at the time, what information did you have about him, prior to the operation, if any? MR VAN ZWEEL Mr McFadden? MS PATEL Yes. MR VAN ZWEEL That he transported people from Maputo to Swaziland and from Swaziland to Natal. He was a courier and a collaborator with the ANC. That is the information we had from our several sources, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. And this was prior to the operation? This information you had available to you was information prior to the operation? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. From your information, were you aware that Mr McFadden might have been living with Mr Nyanda, at that time? MR VAN ZWEEL No, I was not aware of that, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. At the planning meeting at the Swaziland Hotel, was there any discussion about Mr McFadden? MR VAN ZWEEL None, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay, well that's in fact what Brigadier Cronje says as well. He says the information that they had or that you all had at that stage was that Nyanda was to be eliminated and that the chances were great that Cecil would be with him because, given that they had been observed for a long period of time, whenever they were followed they knew that Cecil would be with Nyanda. Would you confirm that? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. Now do you have idea - this information that Brigadier Cronje says about Mr Nyanda being followed for quite some time and that he was held under observation, do you know where that information would have come from? MR VAN ZWEEL No, Chairperson, the information - if I can it in the following, the information would have come from reports from Ermelo, from Piet Retief to Head Office. That is the only way in which he could have got that information, Chairperson. MS PATEL Do you have any idea how Mr McFadden was subsequently identified as the person who had been killed in the house? MR VAN ZWEEL Please repeat the question. MS PATEL Do you have any idea how Mr McFadden was subsequently identified as the second person who was killed? MR VAN ZWEEL I cannot say, it must have been from the Swazis, Chairperson. MS PATEL But you had a discussion with Mr Pienaar about this, not so? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Mr Pienaar said that the Swazis had confirmed this, so it must have come from the Swazi Police, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. Do you have any knowledge of Mr McFadden's brother, Gavin? - Mr Keith McFadden's brother, Gavin. Does it ring a bell to you, do you know whether he was being investigated or observed by you, whether you had any information on him? MR VAN ZWEEL I don't know, Chairperson. MS PATEL When you say you don't know, as you saying that you can't recall or it's possible, it's not possible, what are you saying, Sir? MR VAN ZWEEL It's a long while ago and I cannot recall it. MS PATEL You cannot recall it. Okay, fine. Subsequent to the operation, did you or any of the group go back to the Nyanda house, not immediately after, but some time after? MR VAN ZWEEL After the attack? MS PATEL Yes. MR VAN ZWEEL No, I was never there again, Chairperson. MS PATEL My instructions are that the parents of Mr McFadden, of the late Mr Keith McFadden, had stated that from some time after the operation had taken place, that white men in a vehicle with a South African registration plate had driven around the area and had made enquiries about where the family was, where the rest of the family was. Do you bear any knowledge of this? MR VAN ZWEEL Chairperson, I bear no knowledge of that. MS PATEL Okay. And you say you weren't in the house where Mr McFadden was killed, you never entered the house at any stage? MR VAN ZWEEL No, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. And can I just ask this, there's a curious feature about all these, well the majority of the applications that we have, that they're all worded almost identically except for a couple of sentences towards the end that are different, did you have a discussion with your co-applicants prior to the filling in of this application? MR VAN ZWEEL No, we simply consulted our attorneys and they took statements from us. MS PATEL And so you can't explain why your statements are all the same? MR VISSER Well Chairperson, that's not quite correct, it's not all the applicants. I think ...(intervention) MS PATEL With respect ...(intervention) MR VISSER I think Ms Patel referred to the particular applicants that she's referring to, certainly the application of this witness is not identical to the that of Brigadier Schoon's, for example. MS PATEL I said the most, Honourable Chairperson, I didn't say all. MR VAN ZWEEL Chairperson, I might be able to rectify the matter. We consulted collectively with our attorneys and it may be that some of the things may have been compiled more-or-less the same. We read our affidavits and we were satisfied with our statements and we undersigned them. That's the only explanation that I can offer. MS PATEL Sorry Sir, did you say that you all consulted together, that there weren't individual consultations about this incident? MR VAN ZWEEL No, we consulted with our advocates one by one and made our statements. MS PATEL Well then it's indeed curious that they're all phrased in exactly the same words, almost. CHAIRPERSON Well who is "we"? Because there seem to be a fair selection of attorneys and advocates representing applicants. MR VAN ZWEEL It is the group of us and the two of us, that's me and Mr Pienaar, Mr Rorich and Mr van Dyk. MS PATEL Okay. You say that Mr Deetlefs had given you the instruction to meet prior to going to Swaziland, not so? MR VAN ZWEEL Mr Deetlefs gave me the instruction that me and Mr Rorich had to depart for Oshoek and that we had to go to our office at Oshoek. MS PATEL Did you report back to Mr Deetlefs when you got back? MR VAN ZWEEL I believe that Brigadier Cronje had already done that, because he was the commander. MS PATEL Are you assuming that Sir, or do you know that for a fact? MR VAN ZWEEL I'm going according to seniority and I believe that Brigadier Cronje would have conveyed the entire story to Deetlefs. I cannot say that because I wouldn't know that. MS PATEL Okay. CHAIRPERSON Deetlefs was in Swaziland with you, wasn't he, pointing out the house? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, he was there and then he departed back immediately because he had other matters to attend to. He did not remain in Swaziland. MS PATEL Do you bear any knowledge on a raid by the Swaziland Police on the Nyanda house a day or two prior to your operation being carried out? MR VAN ZWEEL No, none whatsoever. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL ADV SANDI Mr van Zweel, just one thing. When you say when you saw this person who was lying outside there, you recognised him as Mr Nyanda, how did you know, had you seen him before? MR VAN ZWEEL I knew him very well. I knew his photo, I'd seen it almost every day of my life, Mr Chairperson. ADV SANDI Is there any reason why you did not take part in the shooting like everyone? I understand you were standing outside. MR VAN ZWEEL Mr Chairperson, there was nobody on that one side and I was afraid that somebody would jump through the door that had been kicked open and if he escaped through that, which was possible because there were many people inside the house. That is why I took my position up at the corner of the house. ADV SANDI Sorry. Thank you for that. Mr Mohlaba and Ms Patel, is there any independent corroboration of this allegation about a woman who was hiding somewhere in the house? Has that been confirmed? MR MOHLABA Yes. Certainly Chairperson, we have been given the telephone numbers of this woman. She is in Durban and she can only be contacted after eleven, so during the adjournment we will try and call her. But the information is that indeed there was a woman who was, she was shot on the leg. ADV SANDI Thank you. MR SIBANYONI Mr van Zweel, if you may help me here. When crossing the - when visiting Swaziland, were you supposed to apply for a visa, explaining exactly where in Swaziland you were going? MR VAN ZWEEL No, we just used the usual passport, you didn't need a visa for Swaziland. And our people who usually visited Swaziland and went through the border post regularly, had an extended period of time to enter and to exit, for example two to four weeks, and all you had to do was sign your name in the book, with your passport number and provide the registration number of the vehicle that you were travelling in. MR SIBANYONI You said you were working from inside Swaziland, gathering information. MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI Now on the night of the operation, did you also return together with the team just through the border, not at the border post? MR VAN ZWEEL No, it was over the border fence because the border post had already been closed. MR SIBANYONI Then your passport will show a stamp that you are still in Swaziland, how would you then return to Swaziland, because they said you are supposed to be inside not outside Swaziland? MR VAN ZWEEL Chairperson, I've already explained that we had stamps in our passports that we could travel back and forth, that we didn't have to stop at the customs office all the time, we just had to sign our names in a book. Now I don't know whether they kept a proper record of the book to determine who was entering and exiting, I don't know how the Swazis operated in that respect. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Chairman, before that happens, something has arisen which prompts one question on my part, if you will allow me. Mr van Zweel, you said that you yourself did not regard Mr Nyanda as a target to be killed before the incident, if I understand you correctly. Is that correct? MR VAN ZWEEL Are you saying that I did not regard him as a target? MR VISSER Yes, you examined by Mr Mohlaba: "Did you regard Mr Zweli Nyanda as a person who had to be killed, before this operation or this incident. MR VAN ZWEEL Then I answered "no". MR VISSER Yes, your answer was no. Thus, you deny that Mr Zweli Nyanda was a target of the Security Police? MR VAN ZWEEL No. MR VISSER You would not deny it? MR VAN ZWEEL No. MR VISSER Chairperson, and then perhaps in reply to Mr Sandi's question, this little extract from the further submissions of May 1997, which you have before you, at page 121, regarding the lady in the house, this is a report on the raid and it's in inverted commas, where the person says "I emerged, I then went to the house. I saw Zweli lying near the gate ..." I'm reading from the fourth paragraph on the right-hand side at page 121. "... and Marcel checked his pulse. He confirmed he was dead. I enquired after Fikile ..." That appears to be the lady, Chairperson. "... and was told that she had been heard by the neighbours after the enemy had left, asking for assistance, which she was denied and left. I then left with Marcel for the police, where I found Fikile. I reported the attack to the policeman on duty. I made my way back to the house with Marcel. I saw Keith with a bullet wound in his head, crouched in a corner. It was clear that he was dead." And then he says: "His travelling back with the reports had been taken by the Boers." So there seems to be confirmation of the lady in the house, from that as well. CHAIRPERSON Well I have grave doubts as to what value one can attach to statements made by this gentleman. MR VISSER Yes, well yes. But it just provides additional information about the lady. That's really all. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Before that, I'm afraid I didn't quite catch the last of the answer of your question, could you put it again? MR VISSER My question to Mr van Zweel? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR VISSER Mr van Zweel, I want to put it to you that as other leaders of MK operated from neighbouring states, Mr Zweli Nyanda was indeed a person who was a target, in the sense that he was somebody about whom information had been gathered and it appeared that he was somebody who was a target for murder. MR VAN ZWEEL That is correct. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON From the evidence we have heard, it would appear that he was someone who was very actively engaged in the freedom struggle. MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Can you remember if, when you arrived at the house that evening, somebody came out of the house and spoke to you or any of your group? MR VAN ZWEEL No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It didn't happen? MR VAN ZWEEL No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And, I don't know if you can tell me or if we should wait to hear from your counsel later, these firearms that you had, they were issued to you as a member of the South African Police Force, is that correct, by an officer? MR VAN ZWEEL That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR SIBANYONI Did you know anything about this Lawrence while you were working in Swaziland, his activities and the like? MR VAN ZWEEL As I have already stated, Mr Chairperson, we knew everything about Mr Lawrence's movements and activities. MR SIBANYONI Was he by any chance a source for the police? MR VAN ZWEEL No. MR SIBANYONI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR PRINSLOO That concludes the witnesses I intend calling, Mr Chairman. My colleague will now proceed. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Well looking at my watch, should we proceed now or should we take the adjournment now and allow her to proceed uninterruptedly after the adjournment? MR PRINSLOO I think we should take the adjournment, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS