amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-15 PRETORIA 14 PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK 5013/97 MURDER OF K McFADDEN AND Z NYANDA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53431&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/9905240623_pre_990615pt.htm ON RESUMPTION MS VAN DER WALT Chairperson, I'm Louisa van der Walt, for the record. I am now calling Paul Jacobus van Dyk. MR MOHLABA If I may interrupt, Chairperson. Before Mr Pienaar is excused - sorry, Chairperson, Mohlaba here. I'm sorry to interrupt. During the tea adjournment, I had an opportunity to speak with a lady called Fikile, who was in the house there and if I may be granted leave, I wanted to clarify certain aspects with Mr Pienaar. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, Mr Wagener is just going to call him, see if he can stop him. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF RECALL OF F J PIENAAR CHAIRPERSON Mr Pienaar has been recalled. You can put your question. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Pienaar, did you after the raid, have an opportunity to go inside the house? MR PIENAAR No, Chairperson, just after the operation we left the house. I never again returned to the house after that. MR MOHLABA And while the operation was being carried out shortly there before, did you at any stage enter the house? MR PIENAAR During the operation I was inside the house, yes. MR MOHLABA And did you go into various bedrooms? MR PIENAAR I went into the one bedroom where Mr McFadden was shot, then to the front room, then to another room, where allegedly Mr Lawrence or Mr Nyanda had been in, where I found a great deal of documents in the cupboard and removed them from the cupboard. MR MOHLABA Were there beds in each bedroom? MR PIENAAR As far as I can recall, yes. MR MOHLABA And the condition of the beds, would you say that people had been sleeping on them or were they properly made up? MR PIENAAR I didn't notice that particularly. MR MOHLABA And the bathroom, did you go into it? MR PIENAAR Not at any stage. MR MOHLABA The weather on this particular night, was it proper, was it raining or can you just explain? MR PIENAAR As far as I can recall it definitely wasn't raining. Whether it was overcast is something that I cannot recall. MR MOHLABA And when did you learn about the presence of the woman in the house? MR PIENAAR The following day it was brought to my attention that there had been a woman in the house. MR MOHLABA Can you remember who told you about that? MR PIENAAR Please repeat. MR MOHLABA Can you remember who told you about the presence of the woman in that house? MR PIENAAR This was upon the information from my Swazi friend. MR MOHLABA So this woman was not found by any of your colleagues in the house, there's none of your colleagues who established that there was a woman who was left out in this house? MR PIENAAR As far as I can recall, not at all, I didn't see her. MR MOHLABA And had you known that there was a woman in the house, what would you have done, would you have killed her or would you have left her? MR PIENAAR I believe that if I'd entered the room and seen a person moving about inside the room, I would have fired at her as well. MR MOHLABA I have some information that there was a woman in the house and that this woman remained quiet in the house until the attackers had left and then she was taken to the police station, that's how she explained to the police what happened. She was not seen by anyone of you in the house, would you agree with that? MR PIENAAR I would agree with that, Chairperson, otherwise she definitely wouldn't have conveyed her story. MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CHAIRPERSON Well you can try again, Mr Pienaar. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, before he does. Hattingh on record. Mr de Kock brought something to my attention which I was going to question Mr van Dyk about, who presumably would also have knowledge of this aspect, but whilst Mr Pienaar is back, may I just question him about this particular aspect that Mr de Kock brought my attention to? CHAIRPERSON What is it? MR HATTINGH It's just in connection with the conversation that took place after the incident, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Pienaar, Mr de Kock tells me that you and some of the members who were involved in this operation went with Brigadier Cronje a day or two before the time to Durban Police Headquarters, do you recall this? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR HATTINGH And during the journey down to Durban, the entire incident in Swaziland was also discussed. MR PIENAAR Yes, that is correct, because we took the documentation down to Durban and we intended to discuss this with the staff at Durban. MR HATTINGH So the idea was to discuss what you had obtained during the operation, with Durban Security Police? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR HATTINGH And you discussed this in the car? MR PIENAAR Yes. MR HATTINGH Among others, you also discussed the documentation? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR HATTINGH And you also discussed Mr McFadden, who had been there during the incident? MR PIENAAR That is possible. MR HATTINGH And his involvement with the ANC, was this ever discussed during the journey? MR PIENAAR Yes, it would have been discussed. MR HATTINGH You say that you had prior knowledge that he was indeed involved in ANC activities, is that correct? MR PIENAAR That is correct. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Right. WITNESS EXCUSED MS VAN DER WALT Chairperson, I once again call Paul Jacobus van Dyk. PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mr van Dyk, you are an applicant in this matter and your amnesty application appears on the Nyanda bundle, the number is 5013/97, and your written application is embodied from page 49 to page 51. The incident is described in Annexure A, page 52 to 64, the political background and motivation, Annexure C, page 55 and 62, is that correct? MR VAN DYK Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And do you confirm the correctness of these documents? MR VAN DYK That is correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You have also studied Annexure A, or Exhibit A, which serves as the political background before the Honourable Committee. Do you concur with that which is contained within this document? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Except with regard to Botswana and Lesotho? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Mr van Dyk, during this incident, where were you stationed? MR VAN DYK I was at Vlakplaas Security Head Office. MS VAN DER WALT And your commander? MR VAN DYK Was Colonel Jack Cronje. MS VAN DER WALT And you have heard the evidence given by Mr de Kock as well as by Mr Pienaar, do you agree with the events inasfar as they have any bearing on you? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Can we just hear from you, you were at Vlakplaas when this order was given to you, is that correct? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT What was your order? MR VAN DYK Chairperson, briefly, the order involved that we travel to Swaziland and attack a place in Manzini. It was a residence occupied by Zweli Nyanda and Lawrence, or Cyril as he was also known. MS VAN DER WALT Before you continue, did you know Mr Nyanda and Mr Lawrence, were you aware of them? MR VAN DYK We were obliged to read the reports which came in from the various regions regularly and in so doing we accumulated a great degree of knowledge regarding persons who were moving around and their activities. MS VAN DER WALT How did the Security Branch, especially your branch that was under the command of Cronje, how did the Security Branch regard Mr Nyanda, did you see him as a target or what was your regard of him? MR VAN DYK That is correct. During this period, any prominent member of the ANC who was involved in the machinery such as the Transvaal or Natal Machinery, would be a prominent figure and they would be targets for the Security Police. MS VAN DER WALT And you say that you received an order there, what else was discussed at Vlakplaas, apart from the fact that you were to go to this place in Manzini? MR VAN DYK The discussion was briefly about the problems which Natal was experiencing with incidents of terror, and we would travel to this resident which was known. It was an opportunity to act. MS VAN DER WALT What was the order, what were you supposed to do? MR VAN DYK The primary order was that Zweli Nyanda and Lawrence be eliminated. They were the two chief leaders of the Natal Machinery at that stage, who were operating from Swaziland. MS VAN DER WALT Now you say that you had to go to a certain house and if there were other persons in the house as well, what was the order then in regard to such persons? MR VAN DYK The order was to eliminate anybody who was found in the house. MS VAN DER WALT And were any arrangements made with regard to weaponry? MR VAN DYK Yes, weaponry was available at Vlakplaas. All the weaponry which was used came from Vlakplaas and these were not the usual police issue. MS VAN DER WALT You also heard in evidence that certain discussions were held at a hotel in Swaziland, were you present at these meetings? MR VAN DYK Yes, that is correct. After we had travelled there we stayed in the hotel. MS VAN DER WALT And what was your order? MR VAN DYK It was basically the same as what I had received at Vlakplaas, the only difference was that the house had to be identified for everybody and after that we would act as soon as the person was in the house. MS VAN DER WALT And who identified the house? MR VAN DYK Colonel Deetlefs and Colonel Cronje drove and identified the house first. MS VAN DER WALT What was your specific order at that house, what were you supposed to do there? MR VAN DYK My order was that I would receive two stun-grenades and that I had to secure a certain back section of the house so that people could not escape through there. There were three of us who acted at the back, it was me, Chris Rorich and Almond Nofomela. I beg your pardon. My duty was to toss a stun-grenade through the window, then to move around to a next room. MS VAN DER WALT And on that particular evening, what happened? MR VAN DYK After it had been confirmed that there were persons in the house we drove and arrived at the house and launched the attack. MS VAN DER WALT What did you do personally? MR VAN DYK Eugene ran ahead, I passed him and broke the back window and tossed the stun-grenade in. I also had a torch with me. Some of the other members also had torches. MS VAN DER WALT And? MR VAN DYK There was a feint light, I saw a person running out. From the back you look directly into the ...(intervention) MS VAN DER WALT Is this from where you were at the window? MR VAN DYK Yes, at this stage I didn't know it was the bathroom window. The person ran in a bent fashion and I shot him. MS VAN DER WALT And I note on page 54 of your application you mention that you were armed with an AK47 and that you fired various shots at persons in the house. MR VAN DYK Yes, that is an error. MS VAN DER WALT So you fired only at one person? MR VAN DYK Yes. MS VAN DER WALT Do you ask for that to be amended? MR VAN DYK Yes. MS VAN DER WALT And you say that you saw a person running in a bent over fashion, was that in the direction of the bathroom? MR VAN DYK Yes. MS VAN DER WALT And you fired at this person? MR VAN DYK Yes. MS VAN DER WALT At that stage did you know who the person was? MR VAN DYK No, it wasn't known to me. MS VAN DER WALT Did you see whether the person was dressed? MR VAN DYK No, he was naked. MS VAN DER WALT What did you do after that? MR VAN DYK After that I moved along to the other window and later I moved into the house and saw that this window was the window of the room in which McFadden had been shot. MS VAN DER WALT Did you also through a stun-grenade into that room? MR VAN DYK Yes. MS VAN DER WALT What happened next? MR VAN DYK We remained at the back of the house. In the meantime the front door was being opened. MS VAN DER WALT And immediately after the incident? Did you fire any other shots? MR VAN DYK No, I didn't fire any other shots. I also moved into the house after that. We began to search the rooms and at a stage I can recall that we were at the bathroom door which was locked. I was told that a person had run into the bathroom, and Eugene then suggested that we thrown a grenade through the window. At that stage both of us moved to the outside and it was at that stage that the man attempted to escape through the window. Both of us fired at him, he fell down, he got up again, we fired again and he collapsed. MS VAN DER WALT Did you later determine who the person was? MR VAN DYK Yes, it was Zweli Nyanda. MS VAN DER WALT And you knew him? MR VAN DYK Yes, from photos and certain observations which had been conducted from time to time. MS VAN DER WALT And after these events, did you return to the hotel? MR VAN DYK Yes, we returned. MS VAN DER WALT And were any discussions held there? MR VAN DYK Very briefly. The main idea was to get our things and to move out back to the RSA. MS VAN DER WALT Were you hasty? MR VAN DYK Yes, because we didn't know if we could be identified. There had been a great noise with all the shots, so that it's possible that somebody may have obtained our vehicle numbers and anything else which could help them to identify us. MS VAN DER WALT You have also heard of certain statements which were made by the ANC in their "Further Submissions" of the 12th of May 1997, that somebody alleges that there was a person in the house who came out after your vehicles, or towards your vehicles and spoke to you on that particular night. Do you anything about that? MR VAN DYK I don't know anything about that, there was no such incident. MS VAN DER WALT So you deny this completely. MR VAN DYK Completely. MS VAN DER WALT And this Lawrence, did you know him by any other name? MR VAN DYK Yes, he was also known as Fear or Cyril. MS VAN DER WALT That's his MK name? MR VAN DYK Yes, his MK name and his other alias names. MS VAN DER WALT And you who were involved in Vlakplaas, do you know whether he was a source for the South African Police? MR VAN DYK Not at all. MS VAN DER WALT And you are then applying for murder of the two person. Can I just find out from you, do you know that McFadden was also shot dead? MR VAN DYK No, at that stage I didn't know that McFadden was the other person in the house. Our initial information was that Fear had been inside the house and that he had escaped. We had no information that indicated that McFadden was in the house. MS VAN DER WALT But you knew that there was another person that was killed, besides Nyanda? MR VAN DYK Yes, that's what we heard later. MS VAN DER WALT Did you have any discussions with Mr de Kock with regard to McFadden? MR VAN DYK I must say that before the operation it was known that McFadden was an ANC conspirator. We read many reports, and it was mentioned in that. It wasn't that it was unknown that he worked with the ANC. MS VAN DER WALT Do you know anything about a woman who was present in the house? MR VAN DYK At that stage, no, but later I was informed that she had been in the bathroom and we didn't open the bathroom, the door was locked. And when Zweli jumped out of the window, we ran around and there was nobody in the bathroom as far as I knew. I later knew that there was a woman hiding in the bathroom and that is all that I head later. I don't know from which source this information came. MS VAN DER WALT So you can no longer recall? MR VAN DYK No, not precisely. MS VAN DER WALT So you are applying for murder of these two persons and any other offence which is related to this. MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You were also in Swaziland ...(no sound) Vlakplaas, and you mention in your application that it was an AK47 and it was clearly not a police issue weapon. MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You are then also applying for the possession of an illegal weapon and ammunition, in terms of the Arms and Ammunition Act ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON In a foreign country? The weapons were issued to you in Swaziland, weren't they? MR VAN DYK Chairperson, these weapons came from Vlakplaas ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I didn't ask where they came from, they were taken in a concealed portion of the vehicle and were issued to you in Swaziland, weren't they? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Then you are also applying for any unlawful act which may emanate from this. MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record. You have just answered that in the reports which you received from other Security Branches you have also read about Mr McFadden. MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And that according to the information in those reports he was also involved with the revolutionary struggle of the ANC. MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Mr van Dyk, were you as a member of Vlakplaas appointed to a certain area which you had to work in? MR VAN DYK At that stage, Chairperson, no specific area was appointed to us. MR HATTINGH You as a member of Vlakplaas, did you work more in one area than other areas? MR VAN DYK Yes, Chairperson, it sometimes happened at times. MR HATTINGH Did you amongst others, work in Swaziland and the Eastern Transvaal? MR VAN DYK Yes, amongst others, yes. MR HATTINGH Very well. If you knew that Mr McFadden was in the house that evening and you found him there, what would you have done there, would you have shot him there, what would you have done? MR VAN DYK The instruction was that everybody had to be wiped out in the house, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH You have heard Mr Pienaar's evidence with regard to the discussion that possibly took place on the way to Durban, were you in the vehicle? MR VAN DYK Yes, I was in the vehicle. MR HATTINGH Was it members of the team who were involved with the operation that went down to Durban, to discuss the matter with the Durban Security Police? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was Mr McFadden discussed? MR VAN DYK Amongst others, yes. MR HATTINGH The MK names and alias' under which these people worked, for example Lawrence, do you know whether all those names were known to security officers who did not directly work with them? MR VAN DYK It's not known to me, Chairperson. I don't know whether they had any knowledge of all the alias' and MK names. MR HATTINGH And in conclusion may I just ask you, why did you decide to go in at the back door of the house, was there a reason therefore? MR VAN DYK When the operation was planned I did not participate in the planning as such, it was Colonel Cronje who did the planning and they decided who would go where. Only one door was opened because if the other door was opened the people could fire upon each other. MR HATTINGH And that door was the back door? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH And it was locked, it had to be broken open? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR KNIGHT No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR KNIGHT MR PRINSLOO Prinsloo on record, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO MR WAGENER Jan Wagener. No questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER MR VISSER Visser on record, Mr Chairman, I also have no questions, thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA B Mohlaba. I've got a few questions. Mr van Dyk, you say that orders were given to you at Vlakplaas, to go to Swaziland, who gave you those orders? MR VAN DYK It was Colonel Cronje. MR MOHLABA And you were only told to go to Swaziland, without anything else being told to you? MR VAN DYK No, at Vlakplaas I already knew what the operation would entail. MR MOHLABA And how did you come to know that, how it would ...(intervention) MR VAN DYK Colonel Cronje informed me. CHAIRPERSON Evidence has been given of a discussion at Vlakplaas, hasn't it? MR MOHLABA Yes. Thank you, Chairperson. And how did you travel to Swaziland? MR VAN DYK We travelled in a vehicle. I'm not sure whose vehicle we used to Swaziland. It had a hidden compartment where the weapons were concealed in. MR MOHLABA And how many occupants were in this vehicle? It was yourself and who else? MR VAN DYK I think we were five in the vehicle. It was Colonel Cronje, Colonel de Kock, myself, Geoff Bosigu and Almond Nofomela. MR MOHLABA And did you meet with other people at Oshoek? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA And you said you were present at a meeting in a hotel. Can you explain to us what this meeting, the form which this meeting took, were you sitting and listening to orders or was it an open discussion where each one was invited to give an input with regard to the raid which was to be carried out? MR VAN DYK I would say it was an open discussion where everybody could make a proposal, but at the end the decision lay with Cronje and he decided what would be done and which persons would perform what duties. MR MOHLABA And that's when specific roles were defined to each participant, is that correct? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA And you said that when - if I got you correctly, you and Mr de Kock realised at one stage that there were people who went into the bathroom, did I get you correctly? - who locked themselves in. MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA And it was suggested by Mr de Kock, that a grenade be thrown out of the window into the bathroom, is that correct? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA Did you and Mr de Kock go out towards the window, both of you? MR VAN DYK Yes, both of us, that's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA And it's then that the person who turned out to be Zweli Nyanda jumped out of the window and got shot, is that correct? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA Did you see anybody running away who subsequently escaped and turned out to be Lawrence? MR VAN DYK No, I didn't see anybody running away. MR MOHLABA And throughout the operation you have been more-or-less in the same vicinity as Mr de Kock, is that not so? MR VAN DYK No, Mr de Kock was on the one side, I passed him and went right around the building, so we were not together all the time. MR MOHLABA Were you - rather let me put it this way, after the operation was launched you went back to the hotel, is that correct? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA And who was in your company? That is the motor vehicle in which you were being conveyed to the hotel, who else was there? MR VAN DYK I cannot recall, we were there with two or three vehicles and I cannot recall who I drove with in that vehicle. It's not known to me at the moment. MR MOHLABA And the number of occupants, can you remember? MR VAN DYK No, I cannot recall. MR MOHLABA And you were only a passenger there? MR VAN DYK That's correct, I was a passenger in that vehicle. MR MOHLABA And during transit to the hotel, was nothing discussed with regard to that operation? MR VAN DYK If you say "discussion", yes we spoke but more about the attack, what had happened, what went wrong, why did a certain person get away. It was mentioned that a certain person had got away, it was Cyril. MR MOHLABA And can you remember who mentioned that? MR VAN DYK No, it was a general discussion, I specifically point out a person to say that he said so. MR MOHLABA But from the discussion, did it occur in your mind that somebody, one of you had apparently seen that person running away? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MR MOHLABA Can you remember whose ...(intervention) MR VAN DYK Colonel de Kock mentioned it and as far as I can recall the man who was injured, Geoff, also mentioned it. MR MOHLABA And after the operation, did you go into the house to look for documents or certain information? MR VAN DYK Yes, we did. MR MOHLABA And did you go to each and every room? MR VAN DYK I won't say that I was in every room. If one sees that somebody else is busy searching in the room then I would go to the following room. MR MOHLABA And could you remember the condition of the beds at the time? MR VAN DYK No, I cannot, not at this stage. MR MOHLABA And the type of weather on that night, the time of the raid, could you remember whether it was raining or ... MR VAN DYK It did not rain, it was a beautiful evening. MR MOHLABA I have information that one of the beds where Cyril was supposed to sleep in was, appeared to be properly made up and there was no indication that he had slept there, can you comment on that? MR VAN DYK I cannot ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Do you know what Cyril was supposed to sleep in? MR MOHLABA That is one of the beds, Chairperson, I apologise. One of the beds ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You said one of the beds that Cyril was supposed to sleep in. MR MOHLABA Certainly, I have just added that. I'm sorry, I apologise. But that one of the beds was not slept in, you will not comment on that? MR VAN DYK At that stage one does not look at the beds. In this case we were looking for pamphlets, papers, anything that can supply information with regard to further operations. MR MOHLABA And about the woman who remained unharmed, can you remember when you were ever informed and when you gained information about that? MR VAN DYK The woman as I said, later I only heard that she had also been hiding in the bathroom, but the time when Zweli jumped out the window we did not go back to the bathroom and that bathroom door was never opened, according to my knowledge. So this woman I have heard was also in the bathroom. I'm not saying it is correct, but this is what I heard at a later stage. So indirectly Zweli, when he jumped out the window, he actually saved her life. MR MOHLABA And there is information that this woman was shot on the thigh once, do you have information about that, do you know anything? MR VAN DYK No, I don't have any knowledge of that. MR MOHLABA Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Ramula Patel. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Just to follow on the questioning regarding the woman, Brigadier Cronje stated that the woman was in a wardrobe. Was this ever mentioned during the discussions afterwards or ... MR VAN DYK It's possible, I won't argue that. The story that I heard was that she was hiding in the bathroom, but it's possible that she might have been hiding in a wardrobe. I only heard this later. MS PATEL Okay. This wasn't immediately after or when you went to the hotel? MR VAN DYK No. MS PATEL Okay. Alright, regarding - you stated that whilst you were at Vlakplaas you were obliged to read the reports from the various regions and that is how you gained your information. MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. And you, through this, gleaned information about Mr Nyanda and you also gained information about Mr McFadden. MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL Okay. What was - can you remember what the information about Mr McFadden was at that stage? MR VAN DYK At that stage it was that he was a collaborator and he was assisting in the transport of persons, as I've already said, from Mozambique and helped with infiltrations into the RSA. MS PATEL And regarding Lawrence, what information did you have at your disposal then? MR VAN DYK It was that Lawrence and Zweli moved together and planned together with regard to the Natal Machinery and launched operations for Natal. MS PATEL You also stated that they were observed, can you recall who would have observed them and when this was done? MR VAN DYK I cannot answer to that. The normal observation was done by sources whom we did not handle ourselves, so I cannot answer on that question. MS PATEL Okay. At that stage, during the meeting at Vlakplaas, was there any mention of McFadden? MR VAN DYK No, McFadden at that stage was not a target because he was a collaborator, but if he was found in the house it was unfortunate. That's when he became a target. But at that stage it was not planned that Mr McFadden was identified as a target. MS PATEL Did you at that stage have any information whatsoever that McFadden would have been involved or would have had dealings with Nyanda? MR VAN DYK According to information he had dealings with several people, members of the ANC and he contact with them, not specifically only with Mr Nyanda. MS PATEL Sorry Sir, do I understand you correctly, are you saying that according to your information at that stage, that amongst the many people that Mr McFadden would have had dealings with, Mr Nyanda was one of them? MR VAN DYK That's correct, Chairperson. MS PATEL And this was never raised at the planning meeting, either at Vlakplaas or at ... MR VAN DYK Not any occasion was it planned that Mr McFadden had to wiped out as well, not at that stage. MS PATEL Okay. Did you have any information about Gavin McFadden at that stage? MR VAN DYK I don't know him at all. It's possible that they might have mentioned him somewhere, but I cannot recall. MS PATEL Okay. Regarding Mr Lawrence, you've denied that he would have been a source of the Security Branch, on what basis Sir, do you deny that? MR VAN DYK I don't deny that, I don't know because I did not handle any sources there. MS PATEL Alright. I'm sorry, I thought that you had in your evidence-in-chief denied it, but you're now saying that you don't know. Okay. Can I just ask, Mr Nofomela's role in this operation? MR VAN DYK Almond would be supportive at the back, to secure the back of the house so that people would not escape from that side of the house. MS PATEL Do you have any idea what specifically he might have done during the operation, that you saw? MR VAN DYK Is that Almond? MS PATEL Ja. MR VAN DYK I cannot say, but he was part of our group and he would have acted if somebody had exited the house. MS PATEL So he was outside at all times? MR VAN DYK As far as I can recall, yes. As far as I know he was not in the house. MS PATEL Okay. And the person who had escaped, was there any discussion about where, which part of the house he would exited from? MR VAN DYK He jumped through the window I heard, and ran away. MS PATEL You don't know on which side of the house? MR VAN DYK It was on the - I don't want to say in which direction, but it was the side where Colonel de Kock had broken the window. But he had to move to the front unfortunately, to open the door and Geoff was there alone and that's the time when the person jumped through the window. MS PATEL Was there any discussion afterwards about whether or not this person was clothed or unclothed, can you recall? MR VAN DYK I understood that he was naked, he was not wearing any clothes. MS PATEL When would you have heard this? MR VAN DYK I heard this later during a discussion. MS PATEL From whom, Sir? Can you recall? MR VAN DYK I cannot say, it could have been Bosigu, it could have been Colonel de Kock, it could have been Colonel Jack Cronje, I'm not sure. It could have been any of them. MS PATEL But it would have been a discussion amongst people from Vlakplaas and not from Ermelo or from anywhere else? MR VAN DYK As we drove we discussed this operation, so it might have been there as well. MS PATEL Alright. The reason I ask you this is because Mr de Kock mentioned in his evidence to us, that the person escaped and the reason he didn't shoot was because he wasn't sure at that stage whether the person was possibly one of the members of your group or not. Now if the person was unclothed at the time I find his reasoning then strange. MR VAN DYK I think when Mr de Kock saw the man he was quite a way from there already, so you couldn't have seen whether the person was naked or not. I think that question has to be put to Geoff Bosigu, because he would be able to say whether this man was naked or not, he was at the window. MS PATEL Are you saying that it was so dark that you can see a person, but you can't tell whether the man has clothes on or not? MR VAN DYK I don't know, you have to ask that to Colonel de Kock. MS PATEL I'm asking you how dark was it. MR VAN DYK There was light, there was a lamp in front, but I cannot say whether the man ran in the direction of where there were lamps. I don't know which in direction he ran. MS PATEL Okay. You didn't witness Mr McFadden being shot? MR VAN DYK No, I was not in that room. MS PATEL Okay. The discussion afterwards about the man who had got away, can you recall whether there was an understanding then that, at that stage, that the person who, that Mr McFadden was in fact Lawrence, that Mr Cronje was under the impression that the person that he had killed was Lawrence and not McFadden? MR VAN DYK I can't actually answer that question, but what I can say is that at that stage we did not know which man had got away and which man had been shot in the house, it wasn't clear to us. MS PATEL Had you seen photographs of Mr McFadden, before the operation? MR VAN DYK As far as I can recall there was some photos, but I cannot place him anymore. If you show a picture to me today, I might be able to identify him. MS PATEL Okay. So you would have definitely been able to identify him at that stage? MR VAN DYK I think at that stage possibly, but as I said I was not in that room at all. MS PATEL Okay. Even during the search for the documents you didn't enter that room? MR VAN DYK Yes, I wasn't in that room. MS PATEL Okay. And Cecil, would you have been able to recognise him at that stage? MR VAN DYK Cyril, yes there were photos of him, I could have identified him. MS PATEL Okay. Can I just ask regarding the woman, if you had found her, would you have killed her? MR VAN DYK This was my instruction. We did not know who was in the house. We had two targets and the other persons who were there we didn't know who they would be. MS PATEL: Because - well if I can just put to you that Brigadier Cronje stated in his evidence that, he says: "There was a woman there, but it was our policy so that where possible we did not wage war against woman and children. At least I should say innocent woman and children." MR VAN DYK I did not have such an instruction. MS PATEL Honourable Chairperson, I'm almost through, if you would just grant me a moment. MR SIBANYONI Do you perhaps know where is Jack Bosigu, is he still alive? MR VAN DYK I don't know, I've never seen him again after I left the Force. I don't know where he is. MS PATEL If I can just ask you, you amended your papers during your evidence-in-chief, did you - on page 54 of the application, if I can just confirm the amendment with you. The first paragraph, was that amended? MR VAN DYK Yes. MS VAN DER WALT It was only the persons. He said it was a typing fault, it has to read person because he only fired at one person. That is what was requested to be amended, not the whole paragraph. MS PATEL Okay. Okay who is the person in the house that you shot at? MR VAN DYK I have no idea who ran away to the bathroom, it could have been Mr Nyanda or it could have been any other person. MS PATEL Okay. Can I just ask - I've raised this with the previous applicant who's testified, your application also seems to be very much in a similar vein to that of some of the other applicants, can you tell whether you all consulted together or whether you consulted individually? MR VAN DYK Chairperson, at times I consulted the advocates and a document was drawn up and from there I agreed with the others that we were involved with this incident and after I had read my statement I agreed with it, it was not a problem for me and I think that happened to all the other persons. It's not as if we sat down in a group and discussed that this is what we have to say. What you see there is what we collectively discussed at certain times. MS PATEL So there was a collective discussion about ...(intervention) MR VAN DYK No. We discussed that this is what happened and we said this was the incident and we have to report about it and we each made a report and afterwards I went and signed my statement alone, nobody else was with me. MS VAN DER WALT Chairperson, I have problem here, the Committee is aware of the fact that the clients are all involved with myself and Adv Prinsloo. I think we live in a modern time where we make use of computers. The clients have said they consulted individually. There's a document that was drawn up with which they are satisfied. I would like to - I don't want to burden the Committee, but there was an application in Ermelo before Justice Pillay, where the ANC applied for amnesty. There was one statement drawn up and the only fact that was in the other applicants' reports, no particulars were given, it was just said: "See application of (let's say Mr X) and those people received amnesty. Here the persons said that they consulted individually and if Ms Patel has a look then she will see that Mr van Dyk's is quite different because he is from Vlakplaas. With regard to the incident they agree on some things because a document was drawn up by the legal representatives, which was shown to the persons afterwards. I don't know if she wants to tell the Committee something else, that these people were dishonest, but if she wants to she must say so. CHAIRPERSON I have grave difficulty in understand the purpose of this questioning. I think all of us who have been in practice know that when you have a number of clients you prepare a statement and you check it with client after client. MS VAN DER WALT Thank you, Chairperson. MS PATEL I will then not take that any further, Honourable Chairperson, it was merely to ascertain to what extent discussions had been held and how it comes about that their versions are substantially the same. It was merely to identify that. There is no - as far as I'm concerned, Honourable Chairperson, I do not seek to draw an inference related to the legal representatives on the drafting of their clients papers, Honourable Chairperson, it's merely the question of the particular incident having taken place in a very short space of time, that everybody's recollection of it appears to be exactly the same. ADV SANDI Well maybe we should accept that because they were all involved in the same incident and they are being represented, some of them I see, by the same legal representatives and they had a discussion as well after the operation, one would expect the format of the applications to be very much the same. One would logically have a lot of similarities, I don't have a problem with that. MS PATEL Thank you. Honourable Chairperson, if you would just grant me a moment. ADV SANDI May I just ask one question whilst you're attempting to decide what you can ask. Mr van Dyk, before anyone of the members of your group got into this house to carry out the attack as planned, how long were you outside the house? Was there any time that you spent outside before you actually launched the attack? MR VAN DYK No, Chairperson, we went to the house directly and the people were there and we launched the attack directly. ADV SANDI You wasted no time, as soon as you arrived there you went straight into the house to carry out the attack? MR VAN DYK Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. ADV SANDI Thank you. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. Just finally Sir, Brigadier Cronje stated that the primary objective or the primary target was Mr Nyanda, he made no mention of - not made no mention, I'm sorry, and he stated that McFadden at that stage according to him, was somebody who was just shot in the course of the operation, that he only learnt afterwards exactly who McFadden was. Can you comment on that? MR VAN DYK Yes, I believe that is correct, Chairperson. Nyanda and Fear, or should I say Lawrence, were the chief targets and seeing that Zweli was the head, he was the top chief target. MS PATEL And the question of Lawrence or Fear, was discussed from the inception, from the first meeting at Vlakplaas? MR VAN DYK As the reports came through yes, they worked together. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL MR SIBANYONI Mr van Dyk, in this operation your team didn't confiscate and bring back any weapons from the house? MR VAN DYK Not as far as I know, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI All you got was documents? MR VAN DYK Documents which I heard later that Warrant Officer Pienaar gathered there. MR SIBANYONI Seeing that these people were attacked and killed and only one ran away, would you consider that it would appear they were not armed? MR VAN DYK As far as I can recall we didn't find any arms in the house, so it is possible. MR SIBANYONI When you returned to South Africa, did you also go through the fence? MR VAN DYK Yes, that's correct, Chairperson. MR SIBANYONI I forgot to ask the other applicants, was it possible to drive through the fence with a car? MR VAN DYK Yes, that's correct, Chairperson, there's a specific place, you press down the fence and you can drive over it. MR SIBANYONI Was this border between South Africa and Swaziland not regularly guarded by the soldiers? MR VAN DYK In some places yes, but in some places there are no soldiers. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairman. ADV SANDI No questions to ask, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT WITNESS EXCUSED