amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-04 PRETORIA 2 JOHANNES VELI MAZIBUKO AM6033/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53445&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99060310_pre_990604pr.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON For the record, it is Friday, the 4th of June 1999, it is the continuation of the Amnesty Committee hearings at Telkom Park, Pretoria. The Panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record. The matter on the roll is that of Nkozinathi Immanuel Mavuso, amnesty reference AM7921/97. Mr Prinsloo, would you just want to put yourself on record? MR PRINSLOO As it pleases you, Mr Chairman, I appear on behalf of ... CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BIZOS May it please you Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee, I appear on behalf of the family of the deceased who are present here today, I am from the Legal Resources Centre in Johannesburg and I am instructed by Ms Miriam Wheeldon in the matter. Mr Chairman, we have had discussions with Counsel for the applicant and we, our colleague I think for - the Evidence Leader for the Commission, and we are agreed subject to the Committee's concurrence, that no useful purpose would be served in starting this matter today. There are facts and circumstances which are to be investigated and on information available to us and the Commission, it would appear that there are people who are not here today who may have an interest in the outcome of these proceedings. We are constraint to ask for a postponement of the matter. We have raised that with the persons responsible for the calendar and we have been informed that the Committee will be available from the 5th to the 9th of July and I think although we hope and trust that it will not last as long as that, it would be as well to allow that sort of period in order not to have part-heard matters involved. We would ask for a postponement to that date. ADV DE JAGER Mr Bizos, you have raised a matter about my previous involvement. If there is any objection, I would like to know at this stage, because otherwise if it is raised then and there is a problem, then we will have to postpone it again. MR BIZOS ... a witness on the information presently at our disposal, whose name is Msibi and who is present here today, appeared before a Committee of which you, Adv De Jager, was a Member. He applied for amnesty, his application for amnesty was refused. I have seen the ruling, I do not on the information available to us, it was not really a credibility issue that you had to decide upon, but rather partly on his own evidence. He had committed the act in respect of which he was applying for amnesty for personal gain, and on that ground, the application was refused. I do not object to your sitting in this matter, I don't believe that there are sufficient grounds, but I thought that I would raise it least anyone else has any objection and also you, yourself, of course I don't know how much of it you remember, having done so many cases, but it would be your decision finally as to whether you are going to sit or not. ADV DE JAGER I would appreciate it if perhaps you could discuss it with the witness and you could later tell me what is his... MR BIZOS (Microphone not on) ADV DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Bizos. Ms Mtanga, what is your position in regard to postponing the matter as indicated by Mr Bizos? MS MTANGA Chairperson, I do agree with the postponement and also I do confirm the date that has been arranged, that is the 5th of July to the 9th of July. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Do you mean the victim's legal representative? I thought you said the applicant. MR PRINSLOO The victim. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Yes Mr Bizos? MR BIZOS I don't know whether an applicant is entitled to a statement as of right, I know of no procedure, but we will undertake to do this at least that we will indicate by notice to the Committee and to the applicant the nature of the evidence of the witness upon which we will oppose the application. I think that would be more than enough to enable the applicant to prepare a case, to present to the Committee, I don't know that he is entitled to a statement, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Prinsloo, perhaps it is a bit premature at this stage, to make any particular rulings, isn't it more advisable that you await the communication from the victim's legal representative to see to what extent that meets whatever difficulty you might have? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, with respect, in all the recent matters, we have had pre-trial conferences and we have resolved all the issues beforehand, and that saves time for the Committee and also expenditure, and we know exactly where we are going and what evidence to lead and what not. It will also be in the interest of the Committee Mr Chairman, with respect, otherwise I would suggest that the pre-trial conference be held that we be given the documents and the information timeously so that we know exactly what is going on. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but what I am referring to is information which Mr Bizos has undertaken at the very least, to make available to you, shouldn't you consider that and see whether you still have any difficulty subsequent to that? MR PRINSLOO I will accept it on that basis at this stage, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. ADV DE JAGER Mr Bizos, if there is any ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, unfortunately it is not possible to proceed with this particular matter this morning. There are a number of outstanding issues that need to be clarified before it is possible to proceed with the matter. We prefer to listen to the matter in one sitting and to dispose of it in one sitting rather than having a situation developing where it is inevitable that we would only be able to hear a portion of the matter and then be compelled to postpone it in any event. Under those circumstances we are going to postpone the matter and it will be enrolled for hearing as from the 5th of July 1999, we have reserved five days for the matter, in all likelihood it would not take all of that time, but in order to avoid us being left with a partly-heard matter in view of the rather pressing schedule of the Amnesty Committee, we are providing a five day period for this matter. It will then be postponed to the 5th of July 1999, we reserve the week until the 9th and it will be heard at the IDASA Centre in Pretoria. The matter is postponed. We will stand down for a brief while just to allow for the next matter to be ready. We will adjourn briefly. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON The next matter on the roll for today are the applications of Johannes Veli Mazibuko, amnesty reference AM6033/97 and Teboho Bennie Tlatsi, AM7397/97. The Panel is as indicated previously on the record. For the applicants, Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Honourable Committee Members, I confirm that I appear for both applicants, Mr Mazibuko and Mr Tlatsi. I believe we are ready to proceed with leave of the Committee, may we proceed? CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Koopedi. Ms Mtanga, do you want to put yourself on record? MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader from the Truth Commission. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga, are there any other interested parties in this matter, victims, other interested parties? MS MTANGA Chairperson, we have four victims as per our information in the Bundle, they have all been notified and they responded to our, they did sign the acknowledgement of receipt, but they have not attended the hearing and they have not indicated whether they oppose or not. CHAIRPERSON So those four known victims have been properly notified? MS MTANGA That is so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And they are not present at the proceedings? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, and the notification we received indicated that the hearing would start yesterday and they also did not attend yesterday. CHAIRPERSON Okay, and you are asking that we proceed in the circumstances? MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well, Mr Koopedi, who is the first applicant to testify? MR KOOPEDI The first applicant to testify would be Veli Mazibuko, but may I just comment about what we have just been talking about and add that in fact the victims have indicated in their statements that they do not oppose the application. CHAIRPERSON It is Mr Mazibuko that will be testifying first? ADV DE JAGER And the other co-perpetrators, they were given notice too? MR KOOPEDI That is indeed so, to my knowledge, the other co-perpetrators who formed the core of the Unit, were also notified of the hearing. I must add that they are co-perpetrators but not co-applicants, that is right. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. In those circumstances, we will proceed to hear the applications. Mr Mazibuko, in what language are you going to present your evidence? MR MAZIBUKO I will present it in English. CHAIRPERSON Very well, will you please rise to take the oath? Are your full names Johannes Veli Mazibuko? JOHANNES VELI MAZIBUKO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Please sit down and will you just arrange for both your microphones to be switched on, Mr Koopedi. Just for the record, the second name of the first applicant is Veli, not Veli but Veli. Yes Mr Koopedi? EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, there is a document entitled "TRC Submission Basil February" which is a statement prepared by the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Do you wish that to form part of the record? MR KOOPEDI Looking at time, the interest of time, instead of us reading it into the record, we would like that to form part of the record. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR KOOPEDI Unless you specifically direct that we read that into there record, which we are willing to do. CHAIRPERSON No, that will be Exhibit A in this matter, the TRC Submissions Basil February. Yes Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson and may we proceed. Mr Mazibuko, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter? MR MAZIBUKO Yes. MR KOOPEDI Is it also correct that Mr Tlatsi is a fellow applicant? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, it is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now you have applied for amnesty for incidents that occurred between 1988 and 1990, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Is it correct that, let me rephrase, were you a member of any political organisation? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I was. I was the member of the African National Congress and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe. MR KOOPEDI Do you know if your fellow applicant was a member of any political organisation? MR MAZIBUKO He was, because we served in the same Unit. MR KOOPEDI What was this Unit called? MR MAZIBUKO The name of the Unit was called Basil February. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now the offences you are applying for, would you state for the Committee what offences you are applying amnesty for? MR MAZIBUKO The operations that I am applying amnesty on are firstly the attack on the Police vehicle at Duduza stadium with a super limpet mine. MR KOOPEDI Would you recall when this happened, a date perhaps? MR MAZIBUKO I am actually not sure of the actual date, but it happened before - I am not sure whether was it after the commemorations of the June 16 in 1989 or was it actually before the 26th, which we also celebrated as the Freedom Day by then. MR KOOPEDI This incident, when it happened, could you briefly tell the Committee how it happened, who took part in that? MR MAZIBUKO Well, what we did as a Unit firstly, we planned together as a Unit on this attack. After having planned as a Unit on this attack, I personally went for two weekends at the stadium for reconnaissance purposes, where I reconnoitred because there was a soccer team of Policemen who every weekend were used to come into the township to play with other soccer teams of civilians in the township. I personally reconnoitred the place for almost two weeks before this event and after a conviction of the fact that we would be in a position to sort of inflict considerable damage to the military personnel of the South African regime, I personally indicated to members of the Unit that as Commander of the Unit, I would be more interested to be the one who is going to carry out this operation. On that day, which I am not certain exactly whether was it before the 16th or after the 16th of June, we decided that I will go out and carry this operation. On that particular day, I went to our DLB, DLB - dead letter box - that is where I took a super limpet mine. That super limpet mine, I walked all the way to the stadium, at the stadium I paid the due fees which normally any person that enters the stadium, pays. I went inside until it was half time. After half time, I stayed for almost 20 minutes to see the soccer teams playing there. Immediately after the 20 minutes, because I had a super limpet mine which I was supposed to be attaching to a Police van which that Police van would be taking that soccer team of Policemen who it was going to off-load at Murrayvale Barracks where they stayed. After that 20 minutes into the extra time, I went outside, having already primed the detonator, I took the safety pin off. The element that I used for the detonation, was a 45 minute element, which would have allowed the situation where at least it would be almost 25 or 30 minutes when the match had finished and this van would now be travelling on its way back to the Barracks. I then with the limpet mine, went to a bumper closer to a tank, a fuel tank of this LDV van and I attached it underneath there, facing down. Thereafter I left the scene. That is how basically I conducted this operation of the attack on the Police van. MR KOOPEDI Now there were certain people who were injured in this operation, do you know anything about them? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, it is true. Subsequent to this event, one got arrested, that was on the 26th of June 1989 and in our trial, the people who got injured, were presented before - as State witnesses in our trial. That is when I sort of got the first encounter with them at the trial, basically. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now that is in as far as the first incident is concerned, or is that the only incident for which you are applying for amnesty. MR MAZIBUKO No, it is not the only incident. MR KOOPEDI Could you briefly tell the Committee about the other one? ADV DE JAGER (Microphone not on) Is this the incident referred to on page 50 of the Bundle? MR KOOPEDI No, it is not. ADV DE JAGER Oh, not that one? I thought that may be helpful for the dates. Thank you. MR KOOPEDI It appears it is, the problem is we have it saying Duduza soccer stadium and then (indistinct), a different place, but this is the incident. This is the incident and the applicant it should have been the 11th of June 1989. May we proceed to the next incident? CHAIRPERSON Let me just ask him, who were injured in this incident, you saw them as State witnesses, who were they? MR MAZIBUKO I actually know one of them, that is Magalie and the others, I think they belonged to the Malinga family. CHAIRPERSON Are they Policemen or what is it? MR MAZIBUKO No, they were not Policemen. CHAIRPERSON Were they injured when the limpet mine exploded, or what happened? MR MAZIBUKO It was through the shrapnels because of the glasses that broke within the vicinity of the explosion. CHAIRPERSON Oh, I see, so where did the, where was this Police vehicle when the explosion eventually happened? MR MAZIBUKO It was actually parked outside the stadium. CHAIRPERSON Oh, so they hadn't moved away from the stadium yet, there was nobody in the van? MR MAZIBUKO What exactly happened was the match was supposed to last for 45 minutes, but instead because they were playing for a tournament, then it was a draw, then they had to go into extra time, that was the reason why the van was still parked next to the stadium. CHAIRPERSON So these people that were injured, were they just spectators or passers-by or whatever? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I would assume so. CHAIRPERSON Okay, thank you, Mr Koopedi. MR KOOPEDI Can you briefly tell the Committee about the next incident for which you are applying for amnesty? MR MAZIBUKO The next incident is the attack at the Duduza Administration offices. This attack, I am actually not certain of the exact date, but it was in 1989, when it was effected. I was personally involved there as well. I used a mini-limpet mine which was put at the drain, the drainage which was part of the foundation of the building of the Administration offices. The sole purpose of this was to create structural damage within that particular building of the Administration offices of the then Duduza Town Council. MR KOOPEDI Do you know if anyone was injured in this operation? MR MAZIBUKO No, no one was injured in this operation. What happened was after a certain time, this mine was apparently, there was a blockage which developed within the drain and it was discovered by the Police and they subsequent to that, used a blanket to defuse it. MR KOOPEDI More than anything else, you only planed the device and it did not explode? MR MAZIBUKO Yes. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Please go on with the other incidents. MR MAZIBUKO The other incident which I carried out, was an attack at kwaThema Police station. This attack was also in 1989, it could have been around May if I am not mistaken. ADV DE JAGER Maybe, to assist you, maybe on page 47? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, yes. The one that you pointed is the one that I have just spoken about, which is the Duduza Administration offices, those offices were also used by Municipal Police. ADV DE JAGER Oh, I see, so that is on page 47? MR MAZIBUKO Page 47, that is the second one that I have spoken about. MR KOOPEDI This second incident, the Duduza Administration office, just for the sake of clarity, it was also used by Security Police personnel, that is other than for administrative purposes? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, predominantly it had been a Municipal Police station basically. MR KOOPEDI Would it be correct to refer to it as a Municipal Police station, like the State has it in a matter that was heard against you, as it appears on page 47? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I wouldn't have a problem with that because it was adjoined to the admin offices, as well. MR KOOPEDI Okay. MR MAZIBUKO Life I have indicated that I am actually not certain on the date at kwaThema Police station, but it could also have been around May when I carried out this attack. I carried out this attack right in the middle of the night, it was at two o'clock in the morning when I went to kwaThema Police station, I was actually carrying a mini-limpet mine. I went through a fence after I realised that the initial plan which, after having reconnoitred the place, I thought I was going to implement, which was going to enter right into the building, but due to the fact that there was maximum security after there was alert on a number of the blasts which were taking place in the area, and what added up to resorting to in this operation, was to go and put the mine under the gutter at the building of the Police station. That is how I basically carried out this attack. MR KOOPEDI Would it be correct to say that this attack could have happened on the 22nd of June 1989? MR MAZIBUKO 22nd? Yes, yes, it could be correct. MR KOOPEDI I am looking at page 57 of the Bundle of documents, Chairperson. Please go on to the next one. MR MAZIBUKO The other attack was carried, I actually carried out in 1988, October. This was within the midst of pre-election bombing where we intended disrupting elections which were taking place at that particular time. On this particular attack, I went to Dunnottar post office after a constant surveillance of the area, with a super limpet mine, with the sole objective of also entering the building and placing this mine inside the building. On my way to Dunnottar post office, just as I was going to the toilets to prime the detonator, to ensure that I removed the safety pin, I realised that there were Security Branch members who were standing next to the toilets there. On realising that, I then sort of got scared by virtue of the fact that I thought maybe there could be possibilities that there was something wrong within the area. Based on the original plan of entering the building, I then after having primed the super limpet mine, chose instead of getting inside the building, to place it in a dustbin close to the wall, it is almost - I am not sure whether am I good with metres on this - it could be three or four metres away from the wall of the post office. That is how I basically carried out this attack at Dunnottar post office. ADV DE JAGER Is that the same as the Nigel post office, page 43? MR MAZIBUKO It is different, it is a different attack. ADV DE JAGER Oh, it is a different one. MR MAZIBUKO The next one was an attack at the Brakpan Home Affairs offices. This attack I carried out, it was in December 1988 where I went to the Home Affairs offices at Brakpan. It was Sunday, it was closed, I placed the mine against the wall of the Home Affairs offices and that is how basically I carried out this attack. MR KOOPEDI Was there an explosion? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, there was an explosion. MR KOOPEDI Was anyone injured? MR MAZIBUKO There was no one injured. MR KOOPEDI Do you know if there was any damage to property? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, there was damage to the building. MR KOOPEDI Okay, please go to the next incident. MR MAZIBUKO The next incident pertains to an attack at Tsakane Police Barracks. There as well after a constant surveillance of movement of SAP personnel and Municipal Police personnel, I decided to carry out an attack. It was in 1988, yes, it was in 1988 where after a constant surveillance of movement of military personnel, I also placed a super limpet mine against the wall of one of the houses which were occupied by SAPS personnel, but before I could get out of the Barracks itself, some of the personnel saw me and they fired shots at me and Ii ran away from the place. Then later on they went out to check what is it that I placed there, and they discovered a mine and they also defused it. MR KOOPEDI I see, is it correct that you are also applying for amnesty for having planned an executed all these attacks, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO Yes. MR KOOPEDI What I need to know for the Committee's sake, when all these were planned, did you do this on your own, were you with other people, how was this planning done? MR MAZIBUKO Before answering that, I think on the original application, there is one attack which maybe by mistake, is not included here, which is the attack at the Nigel post office which will be reflected in the original application, but in terms of this submission, it is not indicated. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, he is referring to page 3 of that document, submission. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and has he dealt with kwaThema Administration offices, the bombing? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I have not covered that as yet. CHAIRPERSON You haven't covered that? And there is another one in addition to that you say? MR MAZIBUKO Yes sir, the one at Nigel post office. CHAIRPERSON The one at Nigel post office. MR MAZIBUKO Which according to the original application, it is covered, but here I did not include it. CHAIRPERSON All right, so there are two further incidents that you want to refer to? MR MAZIBUKO Yes. CHAIRPERSON All right, very well. MR MAZIBUKO Firstly I will deal with the one at kwaThema Administration offices. The attack at kwaThema Administration offices was carried, I think it was the 20th of October 1988. The Administration offices at kwaThema were used as a voting station for local government elections and then subsequent to that, because obviously we were opposed to these elections, it ultimately became a target. As the Basil February Unit in terms of the overall mandate of disrupting these elections, I indicated to the Commissar of the Unit, the Commissar of the Unit being Teboho Ben Tlatsi, for him to take charge of this operation and ensure that it is carried to the letter. But over and above that, as Commander of the Unit, I could not leave comrade Ben to be alone there out on the field. On that particular day I happened to be writing an exam in kwaThema. Before I could write for, or before I could go for sitting on the exam, I went via the place to ensure that the operation is carried properly. Comrade Ben Teboho Tlatsi carried out this operation successfully in these Administration offices, by placing a mine inside the toilets of the building, which subsequently exploded. MR KOOPEDI Were you present when the explosion occurred? MR MAZIBUKO No, I was writing an exam at that time. MR KOOPEDI Okay, so your evidence is you went passed the scene and went to write the exams, you were not present when the explosion occurred? MR MAZIBUKO Occurred, no. MR KOOPEDI Okay, just go to the last incident. MR MAZIBUKO The last incident which I also personally carried out, was the attack at the Nigel post office. This attack was carried in 1989, I am actually not exact about the date on that, the month. The attack was carried, that is I personally carried it out by placing a limpet mine on a manhole under the building itself, of the post office. ADV DE JAGER That is the one referred to on page 43 of the Bundle? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, that is the one. MR KOOPEDI Was there an explosion? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, there was an explosion. MR KOOPEDI Could we perhaps drift back to my original question in terms of you know, your planning, who was with you, how was it done right up until execution time? MR MAZIBUKO What we did as a Unit, we planned most operations as a Unit. In terms of execution, the operations which I personally applied for, were operations which were personally carried by me. There is one area which I also feel I need to cover here. Initially when we started operating, the Basil February Unit, we sort of started more dealing with structural, hitting buildings basically, but with time, like as you can see in terms of the incident which happened at the stadium, at the Duduza stadium, we sort of decided to change the focus because apart from the fact that we were sort of trying to paralyse the racist regime by then, there could be no way in which we could wish away with forces that kept on killing our people in the area. When I actually speak about this, I do not speak about it maybe as someone who is at a distance, I speak about it as someone who has been a victim where Security Forces tried to cold-bloodedly murder me when I was still a student activist. Where people like De Kock, people like Johan van der Merwe, it is known, it is known to this Commission that there was an incident in Duduza where they booby-trapped certain students, I was one of those, where I was nearly cold-bloodedly murdered by elements of the racist regime. When we changed the focus in 1989, it was solely with the view of sort of ensuring that we show the enemy, the enemy which in this instance, was the racist regime, that there could be no target beyond our reach. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now your Unit, did you get any orders from anyone else in the ANC? MR MAZIBUKO Maybe what one needs to deal with here is to try and indicate the difference between a military man and a militarist. Within the context of a militarist, a militarist always - he is someone who is dormant, who always waits for orders to be fed down to him, but within Umkhonto weSizwe we operated within a broader mandate which obviously according to the submission that I have given to the Commission, in terms of the modus operandi, I indicate exactly what is it that we sort of, that is the way in which we were operating, which was to stretch the enemy forces, paralyse lines of communication, so it was within that particular mandate which is commonly known to each and every political soldier, because we were different from other soldiers, hence we refer to ourselves as political soldiers rather than as militarists. It was within that broad mandate in which we acted which was within the quest of the liberation of the black majority. MR KOOPEDI Okay, you have made an interesting reference to the fact that you were also one of those victims of the booby-trapped hand grenades. I believe you are aware that you will not get amnesty if the actions, your actions, were for any personal gain. My question to you is after you were injured, the operations that you were involved in, were these operations carried on because you had been injured or were these operations carried on you know, in terms of the broad mandate you would have had as an MK combatant? MR MAZIBUKO I would wish to place it on record before this Commission that when I understood the first incidents, I am also on record when I appeared before the TRC as a victim, when they asked me whether do I have any grudges or whatever against people who perpetrated the acts of ensuring that I become limbless and I indicated that I understood that whatever those people did, they did within a particular context, you see. The way I understand the struggle, all that I did, was to carry the mandate of ensuring our people. The fact that I was without fingers, the fact that I got injured in the first instance, for instance, in my submission, there is somewhere where I deal with the fact that De Kock and the others planned this attack on us, it was solely to discourage a number of people who after a call of saying, the ANC was saying they are establishing military bases inside the country, those acts were solely to discourage people from actively participating in those events and when one came out of prison, I came out of prison with a view that what I stood for at the beginning, I still stand for, which was the broad mandate of ensuring that we liberate our people. In essence, what I am indicating here is that whether one was limbless, whether one was headless, one would still have continued to fight until the original objective which was liberation, was achieved. It was not a revenge basically. MR KOOPEDI Would you regard all these instances for which you are applying amnesty for, as having been politically motivated? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I do. MR KOOPEDI Now finally, your Unit, I asked a question and perhaps I should rephrase it, and the question was where did your Unit get orders. Perhaps let me rephrase it and say who trained you, who gave you the mandate that you had? Was there anyone like that, who did that? MR MAZIBUKO Well, the submission covers the training part, you see. When we were trained, we were trained inside the country, we were trained by comrades from Johannes Nkosi Unit which was the Regional Command Structure of MK. Comrade Ernest Sigasa was the Commander if that particular Unit. It was within that particular mandate that as Basil February Unit, we acted. MR KOOPEDI Were there any reporting procedures, were you supposed to report to him or to the Johannes Nkosi Unit in terms of your activities? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, for co-ordination purposes, as Commander of Basil February Unit, I was supposed to report to the Regional Command which in this instance, was represented by Ernest Sigasa. MR KOOPEDI Did you report, that is the instances as they occurred, were there any reports being given to the Johannes Nkosi Unit? MR MAZIBUKO Yes. MR KOOPEDI As far as you are concerned, the reports that you gave, were received favourably in that you were not told that you had gone out of your mandate? MR MAZIBUKO Yes. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Is it correct that you therefore are asking for amnesty for all these incidents? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, I am. MR KOOPEDI And perhaps for the Committee's sake, there was a criminal trial in this matter, is that correct? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, there was. MR KOOPEDI And what happened to it? MR MAZIBUKO We got indemnity. MR KOOPEDI When was this? MR MAZIBUKO It was in 1991. MR KOOPEDI The indemnity that you got, does it cover the offences that are before this Committee? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, it covers some of them. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that is the case for the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi, have you got any questions Ms Mtanga? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA I only have one question Chairperson, thank you. Mr Mazibuko, the incident that you referred to, kwaThema Administration offices where local government elections were going to be carried out, at the time you placed the limpet mine there, were there people there or was the elections going on or not? MR MAZIBUKO Yes, the elections were going on. The mine was placed inside the building, in the toilets. I would sort of wish to indicate as to the exact position, because I did not put it personally there. I commanded that it be placed into the Administration offices, so as to whether there were people or not, I would not be certain to be honest. MS MTANGA So you don't know if there were people injured in that incident? MR MAZIBUKO No. MS MTANGA Who placed the limpet mine? MR MAZIBUKO Ben Tlatsi did. MS MTANGA That is all Chairperson, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Are there questions from the Panel? ADV DE JAGER As far as you know, no people were injured in that incident? MR MAZIBUKO No. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any re-examination Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI No re-examination from my side, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Mazibuko, you may be excused. WITNESS EXCUSED