amntrans DAVID SOLOMON SIMELANE 1999-06-08 PRETORIA 4 5305/97 KILLING OF DISCO AND MR SELEPE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53450&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99060310_pre_990608pr.htm CHAIRPERSON Who is the next witness? MR KOOPEDI The next witness is also a co-applicant. His name is David Solomon Simelane. I will ask, Chairperson, that he be sworn in and then he gives evidence. CHAIRPERSON Are your names, David Solomon Simelane? DAVID SOLOMON SIMELANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, for the sake of expediency, I'm going to ask my witness here to read through his statement. I think it will be faster. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I see that there are two statements here, have you handed these statements in, Mr Koopedi? There's one statement by Mr Mnisi and another one by Mr Simelane. Have you handed them in this morning, or where are they from? MR KOOPEDI I handed them in this morning, Chairperson. Because of the lateness, one could not explain ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Yes, yes. Then just for the record, the statement of Mr Mnisi would be Exhibit A and the statement of Mr Simelane would be Exhibit B. Yes, you want to refer the witness to Exhibit B? EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI That is indeed so, Chairperson, and I would ask the witness to read through Exhibit B. MR SIMELANE Thank you, Mr Chairman. "I, David Solomon Simelane, wish to make the following statement as requested by the Amnesty Committee of the TRC. I am a co-applicant for the amnesty of the killing of the two people in Mamelodi. I have read the statement of Christopher Mnisi, and confirm the contents thereof where reference is made to me. In particular I confirm that I was a Regional Commander of Special Operations, based at Maputo, and further that Christopher Mnisi and the persons he has mentioned in his statements, were under my command. I wish to confirm also that whilst at Maputo, I communicated with Isaac Moyema, through a courier. It is true that we were able to get information to the effect that one Disco was monitoring the movements of Isaac and Christopher and we decided at the Regional Command that Disco should first be eliminated before our comrades can escape. I then gave the order to Isaac for the elimination of Disco. I confirm further that during 1983, I was still at the Regional Command in Maputo and that a decision was taken to have Selepe, a notorious Security Branch policeman in Mamelodi, killed. I then ordered Christopher and his unit to go and eliminate Selepe and another target, which target could not be found." MR KOOPEDI Thank you, Mr Simelane. Now when this order to kill Selepe was taken, was Mnisi still a member of the Special Operations? MR SIMELANE Yes, he was, he was still a member of the operation, Special Operations. MR KOOPEDI Including the people he has referred to in his statement? MR SIMELANE Yes, that's correct. MR KOOPEDI Now when these two killings happened, is it correct that you were personally not present? MR SIMELANE I was not present, I was based at Maputo. MR KOOPEDI So your involvement in these two matters is purely that of an order, having given an order? MR SIMELANE Exactly. MR KOOPEDI Now is it also correct that you - is it correct that you have applied for amnesty, not only for these two incidents, but other incidents where you are implicated as a person who has given orders? MR SIMELANE Correct. MR KOOPEDI Now inasfar as these two are concerned, do you believe that you have disclosed all the truth to this Honourable Committee? MR SIMELANE As far as I am concerned, yes. MR KOOPEDI Now in the issuing of these orders and the subsequent killing of these two persons, was there anything material that you personally gained? MR SIMELANE Except the precious freedom that we have today, sitting in these warm chairs. MR KOOPEDI Do you regard these killings as having been politically motivated? MR SIMELANE Politically motivated, yes. MR KOOPEDI And do you think any political objective was achieved by this? MR SIMELANE The liberation of our country from oppression. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that concludes the evidence of this applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Mr Koopedi. Ms Mtanga, have you got any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Just one question, Chairperson, thank you. Mr Simelane, on paragraph 5 of your statement you stated that Mr Selepe was a notorious Security Branch person and that's how he was perceived by the Regional Command, and hence the order was given for his killing. Can you tell us briefly what activities he was involved in that made him appear so notorious to the Regional Command. MR SIMELANE Well you have to understand that the ANC also had a long arm, we worked with some of the Special Branch here, supporters of the ANC, we did not only rely on our intelligence, trained cadres, but there were wide Special Branch which were working with us, Black Special Branch, ordinary policemen, the population, the underground network here, ANC. They were passing on the information. We were not operating in a vacuum, so we knew exactly what was happening here. MS MTANGA Can you give us examples, examples of the activities? MR SIMELANE The harassment of our people, the arresting of our people, torturing them. He was part this - what is it, the Vlakplaas. There was communication between them. You go to any person who lived during the era of Selepe here in Mamelodi, they will give you the history of Selepe. Which Special Branch can forward to us and say: "I have clean hands, I've never done anything" to the people, in the harassment of our people. MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Yes, are there any other questions? ADV GCABASHE ... for clarity, page 4 of your application, the "1981 - unknown", does that refer to Disco or just - 1981, the acts, omissions and the dates, which one would that refer to? I don't know if that would be Disco, because he was killed in 1981. MR KOOPEDI If I may assist. ADV GCABASHE Please do. MR SIMELANE Disco. ADV GCABASHE That's Disco, okay. And then 1978 is Shlube, which is a matter that we are going to hear after this one. MR SIMELANE Right. ADV GCABASHE And the Mdantsane one is yet another one for a different hearing, it's not part of this hearing, is that so? MR SIMELANE Right. ADV GCABASHE Okay, fine. Thank you. ADV DE JAGER To whom did you report in Maputo? MR SIMELANE Joe Slovo, the late comrade Joe Slovo. ADV DE JAGER And did he ...(intervention) MR SIMELANE He was my superior. ADV DE JAGER And did he give you the orders to carry out these operations? MR SIMELANE Yes, we would - right. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any re-examination, Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI None, thank you, Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Is that the case for the applicants? MR KOOPEDI That will be the case for the applicants, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga, have you got any evidence that you intend leading? MS MTANGA None Chairperson, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Koopedi, have you got any submissions? MR KOOPEDI IN ARGUMENT Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, I will ask this Honourable Committee to grant amnesty to these two applicants. Chairperson, I appreciate the dilemma which his Committee might find itself in, inasfar as the killing of the first person, only known as Disco, in that there hasn't been any other information as to who this person really is. We have tried on our part to do our investigations to find out who this person is, but we've drawn a blank. However, inasfar as the applicants are concerned, I believe that they have fully disclosed what is known to them. They had further had no personal benefit out of this and that the killing of this Disco was a political necessity for them to be - that is the first applicant, to be able to escape from Vlakplaas and take through this valuable information to his Regional Command in Maputo. Similarly, the killing of the Special Branch policeman, known as Selepe, regrettable as it may be today, I believe that full disclosure has been given to you. I believe also that there is evidence before you that there has been no personal gain by any of these applicants, and further that it was also a political necessity that the two people be, I mean the policeman be killed. And it is on those brief grounds that I will ask that amnesty be granted to these two applicants. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Ms Mtanga, have you got any submissions? MS MTANGA I have no submissions, Chairperson, I will leave the matter in your hands. I also wish to stage on behalf of the family, of the Selepe family, that they are not opposing the application. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you, Ms Mtanga. ADV DE JAGER Ms Mtanga, the other incidents refer to 1978, that's Shlube and 1982, Mdantsane, are they scheduled somewhere? MS MTANGA Chairperson, the Mdantsane matter is not scheduled as yet, but the Shlube matter is coming up in the Potsane, Masango, Makhura and Masina incidents. It's been scheduled. ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not activated. ADV DE JAGER ... any other people involved, or could it be heard now? MS MTANGA I've got no briefing of the office, but I don't think it's been investigated as yet because they needed some information from the applicant about it. And if it gets set down, it will be set down in the Eastern Cape, not here. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. I assume you don't have any further submissions, Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI No further submissions, thanks Chairperson. NO FURTHER SUBMISSIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. We'll adjourn for a brief moment. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION F I N D I N G This is an application for amnesty in terms of Section 18 of Act 34 of 1995, by David Solomon Simelane and Christopher Mnisi, in respect of the following two incidents: The killing of a male person, known as Disco, on or about New Year's Eve in 1981, at the SS Unit in Mamelodi and the killing of Phillipus Matkliheri Selepe, during or about November 1983, in Mamelodi. The deceased having been a member of the Security Branch of the then South African Police. Both the applicants have testified before us. Although there are members of the family of the later Mr Selepe, present at the proceedings, they have indicated through the Leader of Evidence, that they are not opposing the application in respect of the death of the late Mr Selepe. The facts which are undisputed are briefly, insofar as they are relevant for the purposes of our decision, that the second applicant, Mr Mnisi, and his immediate commander at that time, Isaac Moyema, both members of Umkhonto weSizwe, infiltrated into the Republic of South Africa during 1980 and were subsequently captured by the police through the help of what is referred to as Askaris, that is former members of the liberation movements, who have joined the ranks of the South African Police. They were both taken to Vlakplaas, a police farm, to join the police unit on the farm, under the command of Mr Dirk Coetzee. They somehow managed to maintain contact with their Regional Command, Regional Umkhonto weSizwe Command in Maputo, who ordered them to obtain as much information as possible before fleeing from Vlakplaas. It soon became apparent to them that they were being held under surveillance by the police, which factor would complicate their intended escape. The deceased in the first incident, that is Disco, who was a known police informer, was one of those responsible for surveilling them. On instructions of the Regional Command, they had to eliminate Disco in order to facilitate their escape. It was decided not use firearms in doing so, but rather to stab Disco. Eventually Disco was pointed out to the second applicant, Mr Mnisi, who then stabbed and killed him. The second applicant was arrested, but was subsequently taken into his care by Coetzee, and the second applicant continued with certain Vlakplaas activities. On one such operation, Isaac Moyema was removed by a Vlakplaas member, Vermeulen, and second applicant never saw Isaac Moyema again after that. Second applicant subsequently managed to escape through Swaziland to Maputo. Pursuant to instructions from the Umkhonto weSizwe Regional Command, second applicant was to effect the elimination of Mr Selepe, a member of the Security Branch. Second applicant proceeded to do so during November 1983, when he shot and killed Mr Selepe, as the latter was walking towards his home in Mamelodi. First applicant, Mr Simelane, also testified to the effect that he was at all material times the Regional Commander of Umkhonto weSizwe's Special Operations based in Maputo. He had given the orders to eliminate the two deceased. He in turn reported to and received his instructions from the late Mr Joe Slovo. Having carefully considered all of the evidence and the material that was placed before us, as well as the argument submitted on behalf of the applicants, we are satisfied that the incidents constitute acts associated with a political objective, as defined in Act 34 of 1995, and that the applicants have made a full disclosure of all material and relevant facts in regard thereto. In the circumstances, the applicants are GRANTED amnesty in respect of the killing of Disco and Mr Selepe, as indicated above. ...(end of side A of tape) ... Mamelodi west, the son of the late Mr Selepe, is a victim in relation to the killing of Mr Selepe, and the matter is accordingly referred for consideration in terms of the provisions of Section 20(2) of Act 34 of 1995. That is the decision in respect of this matter. MR KOOPEDI May we be excused, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you for your assistance, Mr Koopedi, you are excused and your clients as well. MR KOOPEDI I know I did not apologise earlier, Chairperson, I'd hoped I'd find time to apologise for being late. I hope I'll have another opportunity to come and explain. Thanks, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you very much, you're excused. Ms Mtanga, what else have we got on the roll? MS MTANGA The next matter on the roll, Chairperson, is the matter of Potsane, Makhura, Masina and Masango. CHAIRPERSON Is that one ready to proceed? MS MTANGA Yes, we are, Chairperson, but I would request a five minute adjournment just to organise ourselves. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we will just have a very brief adjournment to enable the next matter to be prepared. That is the applications of Masina and others. We adjourn briefly. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS