amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-09 PRETORIA 5 JABU OBED MASINA 5886/? https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53456&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99060310_pre_990609pr.htm JABU OBED MASINA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Masina will be giving evidence in isiZulu. CHAIRPERSON We've got that interpretation service? MR BERGER Yes. Mr Masina, you have deposed to a statement, a sworn statement, which appears at pages 11 and 12 with an annexure at page 13 and 14 of Exhibit A. Do you confirm that that is your signature on page 12 and you confirm the contents of this statement? MR MASINA Yes I do. MR BERGER You also say in the statement that you have read the statements of Mr Makhura, Masango and Potsane and you confirm that the contents of both statements are true and correct insofar as they relate to you. Do you confirm that? MR MASINA Yes that is correct. MR BERGER Now we've already dealt with your history and how it was that you came to leave the country and I'm not going to repeat that again. You've also heard, you've been sitting here and listening to the evidence of Mr Masango and Mr Potsane and you've heard them talk about the establishment of your unit and the operations that your unit was going to undertake in South Africa, do you confirm that their evidence is true and correct? MR MASINA Yes that is correct. MR BERGER You were appointed as the commander of this unit, is that right? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER And you entered South Africa with Mr Masango in was it end of 1985 or the beginning of 1986? MR MASINA I think it was at the beginning of 1986, it could have been around February or thereabouts. MR BERGER You've also heard the evidence about - well you heard what I said in my opening address about my trial and then you've heard the evidence about Mr Potsane in relation to what happened at your trial and the stands that the four of you took as soldiers of uMkhonto weSizwe. Do you also confirm that that is true and correct? MR MASINA Yes that is correct. MR BERGER I want to take you very briefly through the incidents for which you apply for amnesty, we've already dealt with Mr Chaki, we're not going to deal with that again. The next incident was the anti-tank land mine in Mamelodi, the 16th February 1986. Who decided to plant that mine, whose decision was it? MR MASINA Are you referring to the land mine that was detonated by a Casspir? MR BERGER Yes, that is the one, the one in Mamelodi. MR MASINA It was an agreement between myself and Ting-Ting Masango because the other ones had not arrived yet so Ting-Ting and myself came together and we agreed that we were going to plant this land mine because we had already gathered information to the effect that police vehicles were using that road. MR BERGER And you were present with Mr Masango when the land mine was planted? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER The second incident is the shooting of Sergeant Vuma, 16th March 1986. Again, is it correct that you were present with Mr Masango when he shot Sergeant Vuma? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER That was also in Mamelodi? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER Do you confirm the reasons that Mr Masango gave for planting the land mine in Mamelodi for the killing of Sergeant Vuma and in fact for all the incidents that he testified to, do you - let me just name them, it would also be the killing of Mr Lukhele, the Silverton Bomb and the anti-tank or bomb in Soshanguve, do you confirm the reasons given by Mr Masango for all of those operations? MR MASINA Yes that is correct. MR BERGER The incident with Sergeant Vuma, you were also outside the house, is that right? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER Were you armed? MR MASINA Yes I was armed as well, armed with an AK-47. MR BERGER Were you ready to shoot Sergeant Vuma should the opportunity present itself to you? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER So it was just a question of who would be in a position first to shoot him between you and Mr Masango? MR MASINA That is correct, I was also prepared to fire shots. MR BERGER Okay. Now your role in the killing of Mr Lukhele and Mrs Glugu and the injury to Mrs Lukhele, besides the fact that you were the commander of the unit, were you also - or can you explain to the Committee how it was that you got about obtaining the approval from the ANC abroad for this particular operation? MR MASINA What happened was that Ting-Ting Masango got a pamphlet that had been written by David Lukhele. He brought this pamphlet to me and we learned that Mr Lukhele was against us and he was in cohorts with the then apartheid government so that we - I can say we were not quite sure whether he was collaborating with the then government because we were thinking as well about Mr Enos Mabuza whose ruling party was in charge of the Kangwane government and ...(intervention) MR BERGER Let me just interrupt you there, it's not necessary for you to repeat again what Mr Masango and Mr Potsane had said because you have already confirmed that. What I'm specifically asking you about is we know that because you as a unit were unsure as to whether or not Mr Lukhele was working with the ANC, you had to obtain prior authorisation or you had to obtain specific authorisation from the ANC before he could be killed. Now the question is how did you go about obtaining that authorisation? MR MASINA We fixed an appointment with people who were based in Botswana. We sent our agent recruiter to whom we had given a letter to take to the people in Botswana. He came back with a written response giving us the go ahead in the elimination of Mr Lukhele. MR BERGER As far as this specific operation is concerned, you accompanied Mr Potsane to Mr Lukhele's house? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER When Mr Potsane went into the house did you know who would be inside the house? MR MASINA Yes because Lukhele's car was parked outside but I would not have known who else was in the house but the information that we had already was that Lukhele was using his specific vehicle. On seeing it we should know that he was at home. MR BERGER You couldn't exclude the possibility that other people would be in the house at the time, is that right? MR MASINA No, we would not have excluded that possibility. MR BERGER Nor could you exclude the possibility that other people could be injured or killed when Mr Potsane opened fire with an AK-47 against Mr Lukhele, is that right? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER The incident with the Silverton bomb, you were not involved in the actual planting of the bomb, is that right? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER But you were involved in the discussions both before the planting of the bomb, the decision to plant the bomb, am I right? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER As well as the decision to report your unit's activity, your unit's participation in the planting of the bomb to the leadership in Botswana, is that right? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER Other than what Mr Masanga has already testified about your reasons for planting the bomb and Mr Potsane, have you anything to add over and above what they've already said? MR MASINA No save to say that I too would be pleased if the people who were affected or injured during our liberation struggle that they reconcile with us. It should be understood that what we did was as a result of the pressure that we were facing, we were under oppression. I'd be very delighted if there could be reconciliation between the parties. MR BERGER As far as the bomb which was planted in Soshanguve is concerned, again you were not physically present when that mine was planted, is that right? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER Were you involved in the discussions beforehand as to whether it should be planted and where it should be planted? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER Would it be correct to say that in respect of all of the incidents that we have spoken about and for which you seek amnesty except for the killing of Glugu, you acted as the commander of the unit and you took final responsibility for the actions of the unit? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER From whom did you get your initial instructions that you were to constitute yourselves as an elimination unit and you were to enter the country with the arms and the ammunition that you did, from whom did you get your initial instruction? MR MASINA Except for the Chabi incident, I got the instruction from Simelane insofar as that one was concerned but I received the other instruction from Chris Hani pertaining to the other incidents. MR BERGER That would be the establishment of the elimination unit? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Berger, Mr Booysen? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYSEN Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Masina, can you just tell us, who was involved in the actual planting of the bomb, who visited the scene and just give us the names please? The bomb in Silverton, sorry. MR MASINA It was Joseph Makhura who was in the company of Ting-Ting Masango. There is also another one who is not present among us here, his name is Mandla. MR BOOYSEN Thank you. Where is Mandla today? MR MASINA I cannot say, he disappeared he is actually one of the MK soldiers with whom we worked. He disappeared here in South Africa. MR BOOYSEN Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYSEN CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Booysen. Mr Rammutla, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RAMMUTLA Thanks Mr Chairperson. Mr Masinga, I want to take you back to the agent who delivered the letter or perhaps the message to the ANC in exile requesting authorisation for the elimination of Mr Lukhele, are we together on that? MR MASINA Would you please repeat the question? MR RAMMUTLA Okay, I'll do that with pleasure. Mr Masina, I want to take you back to the issue of the agent who delivered the letter to the ANC in exile, are you with me now on that? MR MASINA Yes. MR RAMMUTLA Mr Masina, for how long were you working with this agent before you authorised him to deliver your letter to the ANC in exile? MR MASINA We worked with him I can say from around the time we entered the country. MR RAMMUTLA What you are saying is that this particular agent was stationed in the country and he was not a member of the ANC or perhaps uMkhonto weSizwe? MR MASINA No, I can say he was a member of the ANC as well as that of uMkhonto weSizwe because when we met him he was already making preparations to become a soldier of MK, maybe the thing is he did not get an opportunity to go abroad but we also gave him a crash training on how to use weapons. MR RAMMUTLA So when you sent him to deliver this particular letter of yours, to whom did he deliver to in the ANC in exile? MR MASINA He used to meet with Tengiwe. MR RAMMUTLA So we can say that or perhaps find that Tengiwe was the one who authorised the elimination of Mr Lukhele? MR MASINA That is correct. MR RAMMUTLA Okay, thanks Mr Masina, I've got no further questions to direct to you. Thanks Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMMUTLA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Rammutla. Ms Mtanga any questions? MS MTANGA I have no questions Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Panel? ADV GCABASHE Just on this very last question, Mr Masina, that Tengiwe therefore authorised the killing of Mr Lukhele, my understanding from the evidence that has been led is that Tengiwe passed the information on to her superiors who made the decision in Lusaka, it was then remitted back to Tengiwe who then sent it back to you, is that not what happened? MR MASINA That is correct, we received this information or message from Tengiwe for our agent recruiter, the one with whom we were liaising with Botswana. ADV GCABASHE But you knew that Tengiwe had passed your message onto Lusaka and the response had come from Lusaka, not from Tengiwe herself? MR MASINA That is correct. ADV GCABASHE So in fact you're wrong when you say that Tengiwe authorised the killing, it's not Tengiwe, it's Lusaka but you don't know who in Lusaka, that's my understanding? MR MASINA That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, have you got any re-examination Mr Berger? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER Just one aspect, Chairperson. Although you didn't, I'm taking now about the Silverton bomb, although you didn't go to the scene on the day that the bomb was planted, is it correct that you went to the scene the day before with Mr Masango to have a look at the scene? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER And it was at that time that you took a decision that this was an appropriate place to plant a bomb? MR MASINA That is correct. MR BERGER I have no further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Berger. You are excused Mr Masina, thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED