amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-09 PRETORIA 5 NATHANIEL ERIC MASHENE TEKANE AM7197/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53459&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99060310_pre_990609pr.htm ON RESUMPTION NATHANIEL ERIC MASHENE TEKANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Shai, over to you. EXAMINATION BY MR SHAI Thanks Mr Chair. Mr Tekane, just for the record, where were you born and when? MR TEKANE I was born in 1958 and I was born at Orlando East. MR SHAI Your level of education? MR TEKANE I passed to Matric and I went to the Technikon to study further in mechanics. MR TEKANE Where did you go for your tertiary education? MR TEKANE I started at L.T.I. Technikon in Lesotho, Maseru. MR SHAI Now you're making an application for amnesty for terrorism, murder, possession of ammunition and arms as well as car theft, correct? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR SHAI And Mr Chair, may I at this stage state that we are not in possession of the affidavit by Mr Tekane. I don't know whether the panel has the affidavit? CHAIRPERSON Yes I'm just looking, I don't think we have one either in our papers. MS MTANGA Chairperson, I'm not aware of any affidavit submitted by Mr Tekane. MR SHAI Thank you. ADV DE JAGER Can't he repeat, you're asking amnesty for? MR SHAI And I'm actually using what is written on page 25 of the bundle. The nature and particulars of the acts that he's actually applying for, terrorism, murder, possession of ammunition and arms and car theft and to this according to our instructions he also makes an application for the attempted armed robbery as well relating to the incident on the 5th February 1993. ADV DE JAGER Oh, you've read from paragraph 9(a)(iv)? MR SHAI That is correct. ADV DE JAGER Yes. MR SHAI Now Sir, during the time of the incident of the 5th February 1993 were you a member of any political organisation or a supporter thereof? MR TEKANE That is correct, I was in the African National Congress. I was actively involved with the MK activities whilst it was still underground. MR SHAI Did you have any special training relating to MK activities? MR TEKANE Yes I did obtain some training while I was still a student in Lesotho. MR SHAI Now can you take us through to the time from your training up until the 5th February 1993, just briefly? MR TEKANE When I was still a student in Lesotho we met as students and often times would meet with people from other countries like Russia and others and they would teach us about politics. Even the literature that was banned in this country was possible to be achieved through them and they taught us how to use weapons, but it was not an in depth training because to get an in depth training, one was supposed to have gone to their camps. MR TEKANE Now on the 5th February 1993 were you still a member of the MK or the military wing of the ANC? MR TEKANE That is correct I was still a member. MR SHAI Now you have been listening to the evidence by your fellow applicant Marvin Maesela, is that correct? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR SHAI And you confirm the evidence as far as it relates to you? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR SHAI Now the ...(indistinct) of the bakery in which you are better positioned than Mr Maesela to actually tell this Committee what happened, would you please do so? MR TEKANE After ourselves having agreed that we were now going out, the bakery or the shop where the bakery is situated is opposite the home where I was staying, when it approached when the vehicle approached we did not realise, we did not see it, we thought it was the police, we were unsure as to it's direction, we only listened to the sound. It was approaching from the next street. We saw by it's lights that it was coming to our direction because there was a T-Junction that it was approaching, we didn't know whether it was going to go down or come to our direction. We decided then to hide ourselves among the houses. Thabiso and all of us turned to the right we turned to the left towards it's direction. The firearm that I had was too big, I couldn't hide it. The vehicle approached. According to their evidence they say they saw someone who had something that was hidden. When they testified in court they said they parked the car and they came out to look at this person who was hiding to see as to what he was doing. Now it was convenient to hide myself where I was in case they were attacking me. One of them who saw me pointed at the place where I was hiding behind a short wall fence. As he was explaining the security man saw my movement when I was trying to peep and he shot at me. The barrel of my gun was facing my direction and I shot just to threaten them, I didn't want them to come to where we were hiding and I didn't want to shoot them. If I wanted to shoot at them I would have done so easily, I would have waited for them to come closer and shoot at them. I was at a very nice position to shoot because I had a machine gun and they had a shotgun. I managed to threaten them, they ran away leaving the truck behind. I immediately thought of the people who were with me, I thought they would be scared. I decided to go and report to them as to what happened this other side. I told them that it was the people from the bakery who tried to attack me, I threatened them and they ran away. MR SHAI Did you at any stage think of robbing the bakery then? MR TEKANE I would not say that. If it was my intention to rob them, I would have easily done that. MR SHAI Why do you say that you would have easily done that? MR TEKANE These people were delivering at the shop and they came in the morning and I knew their routine in full. Had it been my intention to rob them, I would have planned thoroughly to rob them so they just came unexpected. MR TEKANE Do you confirm that Thabiso was your commander on the day in question? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR SHAI Do you know who he was reporting to? MR TEKANE I only know a little, my level allowed me to know who he reported to. MR SHAI And my Honourable Committee, we have actually decided to use Thabiso as a witness in this application but their names are going to be cast around and the people whose names are going to be mentioned haven't been notified about that and I have actually stated on the first day of the hearing I only consulted with Thabiso on that day. CHAIRPERSON Yes, no well we'll deal with that when it arises. It's only when the Committee is apprised of information implicating somebody before a hearing is actually held that we are obliged to give notice but if it happens at the hearing of course you're under no obligation and in any case as you indicate that he would clarify this question about, that you have just asked this applicant about? MR SHAI That is correct. Now how many people were in the unit in which you operated? MR TEKANE At the time of the incident there were five. MR SHAI Who were they? MR TEKANE Thabiso Mokgatle, myself and the other two recruits, Sediso and Frank. MR SHAI When you say recruits what do you mean? MR TEKANE These were the people who had just joined the organisation. MR SHAI Were they involved in the decision making of the unit? MR TEKANE No, they were not involved, they were actually told as to what would happen. MR SHAI Now when you went there did you intend to go and kill those said policemen? MR TEKANE The intention was not to kill. MR SHAI What was it that you intended? MR TEKANE It was to threaten and take the pistol from him. MR SHAI And it's now common cause, it's now evidence before court that something went wrong in your operation, is that correct? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR SHAI What led to the murder of the policeman? MR TEKANE I was present at the scene and I was at the back, Thabiso was in front. Our position only allowed us to protrude one by one. We had told ourselves that if we approach one by one this person would have a problem in attacking us. There was a wall where Thabiso was supposed to appear from and there was a wall from his side as well. After Thabiso disappeared there was a gunshot and a truck appeared. I could not understand from where I was as to who was shooting, whether it was Thabiso or him. I did not expect to hear a gunshot because I had a gun in my arms I got scared. The vehicles lights were now facing our direction and I got scared as to will I be the next one to be shot, that's why I decided to act, in other words had he shot at Thabiso, Mokgatle was going to be the second and I was going to be the third. That is why I shot first, I knew that this person was trained and he was armed. When the truck drove in front of me I shot. MR SHAI And you don't dispute that you could have fired the fatal shot, is that correct? MR TEKANE I do not dispute that, the firearm that I had was very powerful and it was facing his direction. MR SHAI Immediately after the incident or after your arrest you actually made a confession to the police, is that correct? MR TEKANE I was very stubborn because the police did not handle me properly. They actually dictated to me what to say. They said to me we're taking you to the Chief Magistrate, this is what you will say. I just kept quiet, I was very stubborn. Then they told me "do not be stubborn, we have enough evidence on our side, we will press you", they said "you also have a chance to apply for amnesty." I would not say that that was my statement, they actually forced that statement out of me, they wanted me to tell the Chief Magistrate what they told me. MR SHAI Without going deeper into the merits of the confession, but it became a subject of a trial within a trial in your trial, is that correct? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR SHAI Now in that statement or in that confession you actually admitted having killed the deceased, is that correct? MR TEKANE Yes, in the police statement I agreed. MR SHAI And you admitted to having gone there to rob the policeman of his firearm, not to kill him, is that correct? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR SHAI Now you also make an application for an incident relating to a car theft. Will you please put this Committee into the position to understand under what circumstances this amnesty is being applied for? MR TEKANE I included this incident because of the statement from the police. They were accusing me of many things, they did not explain to me clearly as to which cases to apply for. They only said to me I must apply for amnesty for all the cases against me, the car theft was also among those, that's why I also applied for amnesty on behalf of that. MR SHAI But what are the political circumstances pertaining to the car theft or the circumstances pertaining to that car theft? MR TEKANE We used to conduct our operations using stolen cars. Most of the times we used stolen cars to carry out our operations. MR SHAI And what would you like to say to the family of the deceased? MR TEKANE To the family of the deceased I want to say this to the Committee, I even said this to the judges, I told them that I was very sorry and I had nothing personal against the family of the deceased. The political situation has changed and I did not want to reveal myself but it happened anyway that I was revealed and I am thus seeking amnesty and I am asking for their forgiveness. They must not think that I hated him, I did not even know him, I only saw him in the photos when I was shown the photos in court. I am deeply sorry, this was a very bad thing to do and today they know it's me who did this. I really want to ask forgiveness from them, from God as well and I want to ask forgiveness from the whole community. I do not wish such acts to go on. I am really asking for their forgiveness. If they find it in their hearts to forgive me and shake my hand I will be very happy. We're talking about the past, I think we must forget about the past and focus for the future. MR SHAI No further questions Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHAI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Shai. Mr Tekane, the car theft, is it one theft or is it more than one car theft that you are applying for? MR TEKANE There were no specific cases relating to cars, the police only told me of many cases. I was not even taken to court for that case involving a car. CHAIRPERSON So you haven't actually stolen a car? MR TEKANE I have stolen a car. CHAIRPERSON No, I want to find out are you applying for amnesty in respect of that theft of the car or is it more than one theft of a car that you want to apply for? MR TEKANE I'm applying for amnesty for being involved in a stolen car. CHAIRPERSON Is it just one case? MR TEKANE Yes but when the police told me they referred to many cases. They even showed me a box full of files saying those were my cases, all of them, and I did not know what they were talking about. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we'll leave that for the moment, we'll leave what the police were saying, now I want to know what you are saying. So you're saying you're applying for one case where you were involved in a stolen car? MR TEKANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now when was that? MR TEKANE I can't remember the date but I still remember that I was given a few lectures. CHAIRPERSON Oh, so this is something that's been done in court, you were charged and convicted and sentenced to, in those day, corporal punishment for that? MR TEKANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON But was it a political case or what? MR TEKANE I would say it was a political case. I would not go out and steal a car because I needed money. When this happened, this happened after 1976 when we were supposed to cross the border to Lesotho. Our parents removed us from home because of the raids. I was taken to Bloemfontein and at my granny's we felt very unsafe because they wanted permits for people who did not reside in Bloemfontein. We could not keep up with staying indoors all the time, then we decided to get a car to take us to Lesotho. Nobody volunteered to go and steal a car, I volunteered together with one chap who has since died. We went to steal the car, because I was still inexperienced I bumped the car and I was arrested. That car was supposed to take us to Lesotho. It was meant for the purpose of letting us skip the country and that did not happen. CHAIRPERSON So instead you were arrested and you were taken to court and given lectures? MR TEKANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was this in 1976 you say or was it after 1976, when was this? MR TEKANE I think it was 1976, if not 1977. CHAIRPERSON And was the car stolen in Bloemfontein? MR TEKANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON And what kind of car was it? MR TEKANE It was a new Toyota Corolla. CHAIRPERSON And where did you steal the car? MR TEKANE There's a company in Bloemfontein city centre called Oranje Toyota, it's selling new cars. CHAIRPERSON So did you steal the car from their premises? MR TEKANE Potlake resided in Bloemfontein and gave me a direction. He told me that when they clean the cars they take out the key from the ignition and they leave the key underneath the seat or put it on the roof but inside so it was easy to just search underneath the chair and take out the key. CHAIRPERSON Yes and did you steal the car from the premises of Oranje Toyota in Bloemfontein? MR TEKANE Yes, next to the door. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now I see there's a reference and you've been led on that, there's a reference to terrorism in your application. Now does that also form part of your present application or is that something that is a totally different matter from this one, where the policeman is involved? MR TEKANE A policeman called Chris wrote it as terrorists but my application, I was applying for being a freedom fighter. He just decided to write terrorist. CHAIRPERSON Was there a policeman that helped you with this application? MR TEKANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Were you still in police custody at that time when you applied for amnesty? MR TEKANE That is correct. ADV DE JAGER So are you still in jail or are you out? MR TEKANE I am still in jail. ADV DE JAGER Where were you kept, which jail? MR TEKANE When I submitted my application I was in Protea, Soweto. ADV DE JAGER Were you and Thabiso at any time in the same jail? MR TEKANE We've been together since from Bloemfontein, we were together in the Johannesburg Prison, we are still together in the Pretoria local prison. ADV DE JAGER Have you been at Grootvlei? MR TEKANE Yes. I was arrested in 1995 and I stayed there for 14 months. ADV DE JAGER And was Thabiso also in Grootvlei at that stage? MR TEKANE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Was the policeman that helped you complete the application, was he from the Protea guard unit of the police? MR TEKANE No, the one you're referring to only accepted the form after I completed it. The one who assisted me in the filling of the form is the one who investigated the case. ADV DE JAGER You didn't complete this form while you were in Grootvlei jail? MR TEKANE No, I did not complete this while I was in Grootvlei, I completed it when I was in Protea. CHAIRPERSON So what you're saying is really that, just going back to this question of terrorism, that was written in because you said that you were a member of the liberation movement? MR TEKANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Alright. MR TEKANE I explained to them that I was a member of the MK. They asked me what my duties were, I told them I was a freedom fighter. They said no, you are a terrorist. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you Mr Tekane. Mr Richard? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD Thank you Chairperson. Mr Tekane, if I look at page 29 of the bundle, do you have a bundle in front of you? Are you with me now? Page 29? There at paragraph (d), you say that the date of your next appearance in court is the 19th and 29th May 1997, is that correct? Is that information correct? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD What happened on the 19th to the 29th May 1997? MR TEKANE We attended the case in court. MR RICHARD Which court, what charges were you tried for? MR TEKANE On murder charge. MR RICHARD And did that murder charge relate to the events in February 1993? somewhere at a fee of R2.50 a day. MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD Now that means it's quite correct for me to say that when the first applicant today attended court before, you weren't with him, you weren't charged in the same trial? MR TEKANE I do not understand your question, Sir? MR RICHARD There's an indictment at page 45 of the record where your name doesn't appear at paragraphs 1, 2 and 3. You weren't part of that trial, were you? MR TEKANE I was not. MR RICHARD Now you say you were in jail in 1995, is that correct? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD On what were you been held in 1995? MR TEKANE I was in for this matter, in for possession of firearms and I went to court and I was out. That was in 1996. MR RICHARD So when were you arrested first? MR TEKANE In August of 1995. MR RICHARD So that means between 1993 and 1995 you weren't arrested, you were free? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD Now who were your co-accuseds? MR TEKANE This case had split. Those who were arrested first went on their own, myself and my co-accused were on the other side. MR RICHARD Who was your co-accused? MR TEKANE It was Thabiso Tekane, my brother. MR RICHARD And what sentences did you receive and what did Mr Thabiso Tekane, your brother, receive? MR TEKANE I was sentenced to 55 years, brought down to 38 years. I think Thabiso was sentenced to 65 years and was brought down to 39 years but there was another sentence for a firearm, I think it was six years. I don't quite remember. MR RICHARD Now in your evidence in chief you made a statement that at your level you were allowed certain information as to who your brother Thabiso reported to, is that correct? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD Now who did he report to? MR TEKANE He reported to a person who were referred to as Sisi who resided in Diepkloof and her real name is Margaret Stofile, she has been integrated into the defence force. We don't know her whereabouts now because we are in jail. MR RICHARD I don't think it's necessary to put it into the record but do you know her address? MR TEKANE I do not know it by heart but I can identify where she lives. If it's necessary I can assist. Perhaps I can also send my parents because they also know where she stays. They know the place that used to belong to her during the struggle, maybe if they go there they might discover her whereabouts. MR RICHARD Now what position within the ANC did she occupy? MR TEKANE We were not supposed to know every little detail within the organisation. If we were on a certain level, you would not know anything that is above your level, you would only know those levels that come below you but I know for a fact that she was directly involved with us. MR RICHARD Now since 1994 has the ANC made contact with you? MR TEKANE They tried and they failed because of the conditions under which we were held and I want to explain to this Committee, I am very resistant and I am very stubborn. Because of that I do not get visits, my ordinary visits are cancelled, I always fight for my rights and I am against them all the time. My parents often come to visit me and they are turned away. I battle to get even a telephone call. As at now I am fighting. I do not understand and I don't want to be intimidated by what I do not understand. MR RICHARD My question is quite simple, you say you were a member of the ANC and I'm merely enquiring as to where in the general hierarchy of the ANC you fitted? My question was to go back to it, is in 1994, 27 April, the new South Africa came to be and since then, whatever might have prevailed before then, my question is has the ANC been in contact with you and discussed your amnesty application with you? MR TEKANE They tried to meet with me and Thabiso but they failed. They managed though to see Mokgatle because they'd been years in jail. He had also been close to the death row and the head of prison allowed him to come and see us and he got shocked as well to hear that these people did not manage to reach us. The other inmates in the prison told us that they called the headquarters and the were ordered to search for us because they could not find us. The conditions in jail would be very difficult to understand unless you go there. Everything is hidden under the carpet but there is evidence that we always fight with these people. MR RICHARD Now when did you first join the ANC? MR TEKANE That was in 1978 when I was heading for Lesotho. MR RICHARD I'm not clear, did you join the ANC in South Africa in 1978? MR TEKANE There was nowhere in South Africa where I could join, I joined in Lesotho. In 1978 you would not even see the placards for training the ANC, you would not even dare mention Mandela's name. When you did so you had to do it very quietly but on crossing the border you'd see big placards "Struggle is our life" and big photos of Mandela. There were many refugees as well. When I arrived I just joined. We lived together, we went to school together, we did everything together. MR RICHARD Who was in charge of the ANC group that you joined in Maseru? MR TEKANE They had a refugee camp. The leaders were in Tanzania. Each new group arriving would not stay long, there would be a plane arranged for them to take them to Mozambique then to Dar-es-Salaam, some of them would come back on completion of their courses and be integrated into the townships. The leadership came back very late. Chris Hani was among them and I lived very close to him at Dithabaneng. MR RICHARD So within Lesotho, as a member of the ANC, did you take instructions, did you take direction from any particular person? If you did can you mention his name? Or her name? MR TEKANE The person who instructed me has since died. This person gave me a lot of books and I stayed with him in the rural areas, he had been to Russia, he had been to Germany for telecommunications, he had been to Tanzania and that person was attacked by means of a letter bomb. His name was known to me as Sipiwe. MR RICHARD Sipiwe? Not Sipiwe Nyandi? MR TEKANE Sipiwe Khumalo and that was no his real name. MR RICHARD Now when did you leave Lesotho? MR TEKANE I went to school in Lesotho when it was holiday I would come home and when the school started go back. I would not actually tell you how long did I stay in Lesotho, I had been to Lesotho many times. Sometimes I used my passport, sometimes I didn't. MR RICHARD My question was far less complicated. When did you leave Lesotho and go back to live in Soweto? MR TEKANE I completed my Matric in 1980, I came to stay this side. In 1982 I went back to Lesotho to study further at a Technikon but between 1980 and 1982 I had been going to Lesotho for occasional visits. Sometimes I would go to Lesotho twice in a week. MR RICHARD Thank you Sir, I understand that you went backwards and forwards, it's far less complicated. At some time after 1982 you joined the SDUs, the self defence units, when was that? MR TEKANE In 1990 - 1991. MR RICHARD Who recruited you into the SDU's? MR TEKANE Molefe Mitseng's family was responsible for the recruitment so we went through them. MR RICHARD Now is that the - Mr Molefe that your co-applicant referred to? MR TEKANE Yes. MR RICHARD Now how well did you know Mr Molefe? MR TEKANE I knew him very well, very well because he had been to school at Lesotho and there's a time when we stayed together. MR RICHARD Now Thabiso, is he your older or younger brother? MR TEKANE He is my younger brother. MR RICHARD Now who recruited Thabiso, did you or Mr Molefe? MR TEKANE I would say they joined at the same time with Molefe. MR TEKANE I beg your pardon, what was your answer? With you? With me? MR TEKANE I would say Thabiso got involved in the SDUs at the same time as Molefe. The person who was instructed to recruit people was Molefe because he was close to us, he instructed us to get suitable people to be trained and to be giving weapons. MR RICHARD Now when you received an instruction from Mr Molefe, not Oupa Molefe, what did he instruct you to do, what were his directions? MR TEKANE The instructions were that we must form units that would protect the units from the attacks of unknown third forces. Now we were supposed to select people who had been to school, who were not involved in criminal activities, people who we trusted that they would be in a position to use bombs and not hurt people in the township. So we had knowledge of these things. Our duty was just to distribute them. Molefe was the elected person, he was elected by the top people and we were close to him and we knew some things that ordinary members of the township did not know. MR RICHARD Now where you ever directed to go on operations or any missions? I know you were self defence units but were you told to do any operations to attack any targets? MR TEKANE I do not remember the year but it was during the time when Inkatha was attacking people in the townships and we were given an order to go and protect the people, we were given very dangerous weapons. I would not estimate a number of people we were fighting but we managed to defeat them, these were the people we were attacking from the hostels. When we arrived we discovered that people deserted their houses, some of them were burnt. People had just gone away. Because we were trained and we knew the strategies of the war we planned and we kept guard waiting for them. They came at a certain time, we attacked them, they moved back. MR RICHARD Now were you every given any instructions concerning the South African Police? MR TEKANE There was much talk about the third force and it transpired that the police were involved in the killing of people, assisting the people from the hostels and protecting the other groups and it transpired that the police were highly active and there was an order that we should dehumanise them so that they are not recognised at all. An order was that they must be seen not as an obstacle for the struggle to carry on, an order was that they should be discouraged because some of us even left the organisation to go and join the police so we had to harass them in a certain way to show them that the guns they carry all the time can be taken from them and be used against them. So an order was taken out that we must make them very unstable, both Black and White as long as we had the power and the weapons to attack. MR RICHARD Now who gave you those instructions? MR TEKANE This was an order from the top structure but it came to us through Molefe and he received it from Oupa Tekani because that's when we got a new supply of weapons. MR RICHARD A new name, Oupa Tekani, what other name does he have? MR TEKANE I made a mistake, it's Oupa Tekeri, his name his Oupa Monareng till referring to him by the combat name. MR RICHARD No I understand, as long as we make sure that we have each of the names correct. Now when did Oupa Monareng or Tekeri give you this instruction? MR TEKANE I do not want to commit myself as to the dates but it was around 1991. MR RICHARD Now during that period, the concern was what was legitimate targets and whether the armed struggle should continue. Were you aware that in 1990 the instruction was that the armed struggle should be suspended? MR TEKANE Yes, I was aware. At the time of Chris Hani's death the negotiations were suspended because of the third force activities. In the underground we were still operating, ready, waiting for an order to come out. We were supposed to be on the alert and wait for situations where policemen are harassing people and come out and rescue the situation. The police were supposed to be informed that they also can be targeted. MR RICHARD Now wouldn't you say an attack on the police after the suspension of the armed struggle was incorrect? MR TEKANE No, not according to the situation at that time. The boers were negotiating on the other side and on the other side engaging in very bad activities so we would not trust them. They would appear in public and say yes, we agree but behind the doors they would be buying White people, they would be buying the Zulus, they would be supplying people with weapons. I knew in my heart that it was not wise to trust the White people. MR RICHARD But the instruction to suspend the armed struggle came from Chris Hani? MR TEKANE That is correct, it is the same person who said SDUs must be formed and people must be defended against any form of attack and he was killed just two months after he had pronounced that and as a result of that there was a standstill with the process of negotiations. There were Codesa One, Codesa Two negotiations were on but the Boers drove into Kempton Park, Terreblanche and them. ADV DE JAGER ...(indistinct) incidents Amnesty is sought? MR RICHARD Thank you Chair. Now when did you plan the attack on the deceased Constable Setegi, when did you meet to discuss that would happen, was it one day or three days before the incident, a week? MR TEKANE It took us a week to know that there was a policeman living around, it might have been a week. MR RICHARD Now did anyone reconnoitre, conduct reconnaissance of this particular policeman? MR TEKANE There's a cricket field between our houses and the houses where he lived. There were young people who belonged to the self defence units who brought the information to say there's a policeman who lives around here and we did the reconnaissance. MR RICHARD When you say we did reconnaissance, there were five of you in your cell, which person in the cell did the reconnaissance? MR TEKANE I did, Thabiso, Mokgatle, Frank and Sediso also did reconnaissance. There's a time, if I remember well, we sat from about 3 o'clock in the morning, actually monitoring the time he would wake up. At 4 o'clock sharp the lights went on, we were on top of a hill so we could see the house clearly. We saw him moving around the house, when he went out to dispose of the water he used to wash, we were watching all these things happening and we discussed as to what will happen. On the day of the incident from about 2 o'clock we were together. MR RICHARD Where were you together? MR TEKANE We were together at our store, there were back rooms at the store. MR RICHARD Now what is the name of that store? MR TEKANE Maluti Enterprise. MR RICHARD Now how far away from the terminus store cafe is that? MR TEKANE Can you repeat the question Sir? MR RICHARD An incident with the bread delivery happened at a cafe or shop called Terminus, you mentioned a name Maluti Store, how far apart are they? MR TEKANE Maluti is here at the beginning of the stage and right at the door would be - I cannot accurately estimate the distance but one would be in a position to see clearly what's happening between the two. MR RICHARD It's 30 to 50 metres, it doesn't matter but it's fairly close. Now you had also observed Constable Setegi's house. Would it be correct and I don't intend to go through it point by point, that what Anna Setegi says in her statement that he got up at around 4 o'clock in the morning, that morning, got ready and left at 4.30 and came back at about 5, would you dispute anything as inconsistent with your observations? MR TEKANE We did not have time to observe on the day of the incident, we actually said to plan. MR RICHARD Now I have instructions that his ritual and habit was to wake up at 4 o'clock, get ready for work, leave at about 4.30, go and collect a big yellow police truck from the Moroko Police Station, return home and then go off, not necessarily always return home but were those consistent with the information you received in your own observations and reconnaissance of Mr Constable Setegi's habits? MR TEKANE I would not dispute what you have just told us but on the day of the incident we found the van already there idling, it was inside the yard. One would have thought that the vehicle spent the night there. MR RICHARD However, you say the vehicle was idling so that means Constable Setegi had already been to the van by the time you got there, he had started it even if you had not seen him come in? Is that what you deduced? MR TEKANE I would not dispute what you've just said, the vehicle was in the yard and it was idling. Whether he had just arrived but it clearly shows that he had been to the vehicle already. MR RICHARD Now who is Frank Matibogo Tekane, is he another one of your brothers? MR TEKANE Frank was a recruit very close to us. MR RICHARD Now do you understand Afrikaans? I've got a statement in Afrikaans, I'll translate it but forgive me if it's not accurate. On the 30th March 1993 in another words a short period after the incident, Frank Tekane gave a statement to the police where he said "When we came to the policeman's house the truck was already standing idling. It was a yellow police truck." So that means he's correct when he makes that statement at page 826 of his document? MR TEKANE I don't believe so, when we arrived the vehicle was inside the yard. Even at that time when the vehicle reversed we were just at the bottom of the hill, we had to run so that we can hide. MR RICHARD I'm sorry Sir, I'll repeat the translation. It simply said in his confession "When we arrived at the policeman's house the truck was already there and" ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER ...(inaudible) MR RICHARD It's page 4 and it's probably two thirds, there are a number of asterisks. ADV DE JAGER Okay, fine. MR RICHARD And it's substantially identical to what you've just said, the truck was idling in the drive, or idling at the policeman's house, there's no discrepancy, is there? Am I correct? MR TEKANE Yes you are. MR RICHARD Thank you and then you carry on and say we went to the house next to "langs aan" next door, to wait till the policeman came out of his house, is that correct? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD Now how far away from the policeman's house is the house next to the policeman's house? MR TEKANE The houses have very small yards, they are closed. There was just a wall in between, a wall fence in between. MR RICHARD Now then there were five of you, were all five of you in the house next door behind the wall waiting? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD The policemen then came out, climbed into the truck and reversed, is that correct? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD And then he reversed out, got out of the truck, went to close the gate and then Frank Tekane carries on to say "Before he could close the door of the truck we began to shoot." MR TEKANE Frank is not telling the truth. The police told him to write that, to say that. MR RICHARD Now - bear with me, I've found it. On the 13th March 1997 your brother, that's Thabiso, also made a statement which are you aware of that? MR TEKANE No, I'm not. MR RICHARD Isn't it correct that you and your brother were tried in the same trial? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD Now at paragraph 11.2 on page 2 of the statement you made to the police, your brother said in answer to the question "What privileges were you promised in return for making the statement?" There the answer was: "So that my sentence would be lighter and so that I will get amnesty which I intend to apply for." Did you know he made that statement? MR TEKANE I know that and I know that we were fighting against those confessions in this very same trial. There was a trial within a trial, fighting against those confessions. We were saying we did not voluntarily and freely give those statements. MR RICHARD Now tell me, as at 1997 and that was before your trial, were you aware that the Truth Commission's work had begun? MR TEKANE Yes. MR RICHARD Were you aware then of what you had to establish to the Truth Commission to get an amnesty? Had somebody explained to you that you had to commit an act which constituted a crime which done with a political motive in pursuance of orders which you bona fide believed would further - had anybody explained that to you yet then? MR TEKANE Yes. MR RICHARD So you knew that before you made the confession to the police, isn't that correct? MR TEKANE I would say so but I was given a prior information when I made my application. When I made the confession I was not yet in position of knowing exactly what the TRC was all about. MR RICHARD Because my submission is that certainly as at '97 or '95 when you had been arrested, would the TRC process in motion, it would certainly you would have to stand trial. If you had a clear conscience as to what you were doing your confessions would tell the truth? MR TEKANE I do not understand your question, Sir? MR RICHARD If when you made your confessions, your brother Thabiso's case in 1997, in your case I'm not certain because I haven't been briefed with a copy of your confession, but post 1995. Because the Truth Commission process was under way and what was needed to get amnesty had already been publicised, if a person in your circumstances led into the 1993 incident made a confession, it would be no reason to lie or misrepresent? MR TEKANE I was very scared of the Truth Commission, I was afraid that the Truth Commission was going to bring my enemies here because there are people who do not know up to this stage who shot their loved ones. I was very scared of the TRC, I was scared that I would come here and talk of things that the police didn't even know and I didn't want to come here and sit in front of the camera up here on television to do such things. Even some of the people in our leadership did not want us to do this because we saw it as a trick to just trigger us to reveal what we did. I made an application, I cancelled it, I then did the second one. MR RICHARD So when Frank Tekane in his statement, to go back to it, says when you were planning the operation, the discussion was they said to him, that's Frank Tekane, that the following day your group would go and kill a policeman and then Net, that's you, said that he, Frank, must go with. What's your answer to that one? MR SHAI I make an objection, my learned colleague is misleading the Committee. The statement by Frank - which one is it? ADV DE JAGER Frank ...(indistinct) Tekane, didn't he perhaps he use one, refer to Exhibit A,B,C or whatever the exhibit may be and if it hasn't got a number, let's number it please? CHAIRPERSON Is that the statement of Frank Matsibobo Tekane dated the 30th March 1993? MR RICHARD That is correct, Chairperson and then the one made by Thabiso Tekane on the 13th March 1997 would be Exhibit C and for the sake of clarity Exhibit A is the one made on the 3rd February 1993 by Anna Setegi. CHAIRPERSON We are now dealing with Exhibit B. MR RICHARD Exhibit B and that's line number 4 of the typed content thereof - "hulle het aan my gese dat" "They said to me that the next day we will kill a policeman and Net said to Frank that is he must come with." CHAIRPERSON So are you dealing with typed page number 4 of this Exhibit B? MR RICHARD That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you are referring to the section where the sentences are all underlined? MR RICHARD Correct. CHAIRPERSON And which of those lines from the top are you referring to? MR RICHARD If we count the underlined section it's on the fourth line and it's Nablid Mokgatle, starts "hulle het" CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Have you got that Mr Shai? MR SHAI Thanks. CHAIRPERSON Very well. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you can proceed Mr Richard. MR RICHARD Mr Tekane, do you have any comment, were those words said, yes or no? MR TEKANE Some of the things uttered by Frank and them I did not take into consideration. He was right at the back, he was far to even see what was happening. ADV DE JAGER This what is put to you now is whether Frank's version here that you and not specifically you yourself, but you people told him that you're going to kill a policeman the next day. Do you know that such words were uttered? MR TEKANE No, that is not true. MR RICHARD But nonetheless, other specific details such as the truck idling in the drive are correct? MR TEKANE Yes. MR RICHARD So you say that Frank Tekane where to lie and not to lie? MR TEKANE I don't want to say anything, he wrote those statements to the people. What he said was the will of the police. MR RICHARD Now is it correct that your information was that this policeman regularly left his home in a police vehicle with his firearm and that's why you chose to target him, he had a firearm for you to rob? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD Now it also follows that a policeman carrying a firearm is trained in the use of the weapon and knows how and when to use it, he uses it to arrest people to protect himself and he has been taught how to do it? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD So now doesn't also follow that if a policeman is accosted and threatened, it's quite possible that he will take out his firearm and defend himself? MR TEKANE If a policeman is not trained he would do it but if a police realises that three firearms are facing him and very powerful firearms, he would just leave everything. MR RICHARD From where you sat or stood or hid behind the wall could you see what the Thabiso was doing on the other side? MR TEKANE I could not see. The wall was disturbing my vision. ADV DE JAGER Sorry, could I just ask a question? Thabiso made a statement, an affidavit, in March 1997 so that was long after Frank for instance, four years after Frank made his statement and in his statement he is saying the following. Could you have a look at page 4 of his statement? We haven't given it an exhibit number yet so ...(intervention) MR RICHARD Chairperson, Frank Tekane's statement is Exhibit B and Thabiso Tekane's statement is Exhibit C. ADV DE JAGER Exhibit C, ...(inaudible) INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. ADV DE JAGER: "When the policeman saw us, he got his vehicle in movement before he closed the door. We went nearer to the vehicle. The vehicle's lights was on and he could see us. I", that is Frank, "and Mokgatle then fired shots at the vehicle. Mokgatle fired from the front and I fired from the driver's side". Would that be correct or can't you say? MR TEKANE Can I ask a question? Is that Frank's statement or Thabiso's statement? ADV DE JAGER Thabiso's statement. MR TEKANE I would agree to what he is saying there. ADV DE JAGER So they fired before the door was closed and the one fired from the front and the other from the side? MR TEKANE That is correct. ADV DE JAGER And that was before the policeman even closed the door? MR TEKANE That might be true. ADV DE JAGER And several shots were fired at once? The one fired from the front and the other from the side? MR TEKANE Yes. I also shot, I was the third person also. ADV DE JAGER Why didn't you try and stop this person and say this is a hold up? Why start shooting before even saying anything to him? MR TEKANE The wall caused confusion, it did not allow us to come out all of us at the same time. I think Thabiso missed him at the first shot and the men managed to get into the car and the plan changed completely because we were supposed to accost him before he could even get into the car. ADV DE JAGER Were you supposed to shoot him before he could get into the car? MR TEKANE No, we were not supposed to shoot. When Thabiso got him before he could get into the car, he would hold him up and I would come out, all of us would come out, take his firearm, take his badge and produce it before the top people of the ANC because after taking a firearm we were supposed to take a badge and present it as evidence. ADV DE JAGER He reversed out of the yard, stopped in front of the yard, was his car still facing the gate of the yard? MR TEKANE No, when the car reversed it turned and it stopped parallel with the road. What he was supposed to do was just to turn it into the road, it was ...(intervention) ADV DE JAGER Yes, did he turn the car before he closed the gate? Before he stopped to close the gate? MR TEKANE He reversed the car and turned the car, stopped, got out of the car, closed the gate, the car was already parallel with the street, it was already in the street. ADV DE JAGER And all of you were at that stage next door close to him because it's a small yard we've been told? MR TEKANE We were at the bottom of the hill. When he reversed the car we came running and hid next to the wall, the next door wall. When he reversed we managed to hide. When he closed the gate Thabiso was in the front, Thabiso was supposed to accost him after closing the gate. So what happened is he closed the gate very fast, when Thabiso came out the man was already in the car. ADV DE JAGER Yes sorry, Mr Richard. ADV GCABASHE Just before you go on. The statement of Thabiso, Exhibit C that you're agreeing to as Advocate de Jager was putting it to you, the impression I have and please correct me if I am wrong is that there were two people firing at about the same time Thabiso and Mokgatle - just help me, did I misunderstand? The impression I'm left with is that the two of them fired at the same time, the one was in front, the one was at the side. I don't know if your attorney can just give you that statement to look at, look at that particular paragraph? INTERPRETER Can I just translate it for him? MR TEKANE After Thabiso disappeared behind the wall, there was a shot that caused confusion and ...(intervention) ADV GCABASHE Yes just stop, one thing at a time. So Thabiso went around the wall, the rest of you were hidden, you couldn't see where he was? MR TEKANE That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Then take it from there, what was the next step? MR TEKANE Thabiso shot, Mokgatle shot, I shot. ADV GCABASHE Right, now that's too quick for me. Thabiso shot. Where were you, where was Mokgatle? MR TEKANE This is the van and this is the wall. When Thabiso went around the vehicle and approached and we were behind, Mokgatle shot and I was shooting and Thabiso was shooting. There was burst of fire towards the car. It was after the van reversed from the yard and parked. Thabiso saw the man and there was a gunshot, it was myself, it was Mokgatle and they were running as the vehicle was moving and I remained behind. ADV GCABASHE So as the vehicle started moving, Mr Setegi was in the vehicle already when Maesela shot and you shot, is this what you're saying? MR TEKANE That is correct. ADV GCABASHE But Thabiso came before that and you don't know if Mr Setegi was in the car already or if he was still trying to get into the car, you wouldn't know that? MR TEKANE And he was already in the car but the door was not yet closed because it looks like when he saw him he jumped into the car as if he was trying to reach for a firearm. That is why Thabiso shot at him. At the same time he accelerated the vehicle and the lights were still facing at us. Now we didn't know as to who was shooting who, then we also shot and the vehicle went by, my firearm jammed. They ran as the car was in motion, I was left behind and I was afraid that if I shoot I would shoot either a car or one of them. ADV GCABASHE Then just one last aspect. So you were all outside the yard, outside the gate, no one was inside the yard at any stage? MR TEKANE Mr Setegi's yard? Nobody. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Mr Richard. CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard, just give an indication, I intend to adjourn, how long have you got to go? Have you still got a fair bit of cross-examination left? INTERPRETER The speaker's mike is not on. MR RICHARD I'm sorry I don't have the time with me. I think I'd be more than 15 minutes, if that's I think the indication you're asking of me? CHAIRPERSON There's no likelihood that you'd finish before we adjourn this afternoon? I wasn't intending to sit much later than this. MR RICHARD Chair, we have heard that Thabiso Tekane is going to be called, so we will be sitting tomorrow in any case and I believe that I don't, you know if I'm going to be another twenty minutes or quarter of an hour, nothing really turns on it. I won't be more than half an hour. CHAIRPERSON Yes, no we've got people who are also assisting this process, the interpreters and so on, exerting themselves in order in order to keep us afloat so I don't want to sit unnecessarily late if we're not going to achieve anything significant, so I mean if your cross-examination is going to be about half an hour then I don't intend to carry on. MR RICHARD Chairperson, I agree, I believe it would also be appropriate to allow my learned colleague to consult with his client on these statements. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RICHARD My suggestion is we adjourn. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR SHAI Mr Chair, may I just indicate to the Committee that on Thursday, that is tomorrow, I won't be available. I'm so pressed up, today I had to shuffle around my diary to accommodate this sitting because when I received instructions I was actually of the impression that it will would sit for a day, that is when we actually spoke to Pumsa from Cape Town. I've got particular matters tomorrow that definitely will have to go on. CHAIRPERSON Yes now what is your position, are you in a firm or is there anybody else who can deal with the matter? MR SHAI I'll have to find out first and phone in the morning because I've got colleagues with whom I'm actually appearing in this other particular matters. CHAIRPERSON We have to conclude, this is the very last matter that we've got on the roll here. Of course, you know, in order to have these proceedings there is a fair bit of expenditure that goes with it so it's not you know, we're not sitting in a State facility like a court, so obviously there are a lot of interests at stake here so we need to finish our work as quickly as we can, this is the very last matter that we have on the roll so we obviously want to finish it tomorrow you know so what I want to suggest is that you see what arrangements you can make, you know, for the matter to proceed tomorrow morning. MR SHAI It be rescheduled for tomorrow afternoon maybe. CHAIRPERSON What, you say in a ...(indistinct) matter, is it a Magistrate's Court matter or a Supreme Court matter or what. MR SHAI ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON And how long is that likely to last? MR SHAI There are in the matter they had I think four State witnesses and they have led two and there are two accused involved and there are two legal representatives involved so it may last for - but it's in Orlando so Orlando doesn't normally sit beyond 2 o'clock so I was thinking that maybe if we can sit in Orlando up to 12 o'clock, I may actually ask the court to do that if they will allow it but I'll try to be here at 2 o'clock. CHAIRPERSON Yes no we will have to complete the proceedings tomorrow so if we are not going to start at the normal time, you know, we obviously intend to complete the matter tomorrow so, you know, if we are going to start later than normal then we will obviously just add up the time, you know and we will sit until we're done. But won't you just investigate firstly the possibility of one of your colleagues dealing with this, you know? MR SHAI I'll try to do that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we'll adjourn just for a while. Would you be able to contact your office now? MR SHAI I don't that think I will find the person that I thought maybe would help me. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry? MR SHAI I don't think that I will find the person that I thought maybe would be in a position to come help. MR RICHARD May I make this suggestion? If my learned colleague and I could be permitted 30 seconds to just discuss something, I might have a solution? CHAIRPERSON Very well, we'll stand down I want to ask Ms Mtanga also to look at something else so we'll stand down for a short while and let's see if we can't resolve the matter. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON You know, having reflected on the matter, it does appear to be in the best interests of your clients that you actually do deal with the matter on their behalf so I think we will have to come to arrangement that would accommodate you and accommodate us as well. Is it possible for us to then try and come to an arrangement where you would be able to fulfil your other commitments and be able to come here and finish this one off? MR SHAI Thanks. CHAIRPERSON Would you be able to proceed with this one in the afternoon? MR SHAI Yes I'll try to be here by 2 tomorrow if possible or maybe half past 1, I'll try to arrange with them maybe we'd start earlier that side even though it's difficult actually to do that but maybe given time I can try to reach some settlement with them. CHAIRPERSON Yes then we will adjourn these proceedings until two o'clock tomorrow and you will see whether you could possibly get here, if it's possible, before that time? Very well. MR RICHARD I'll be here at whatever time you direct, I'm available for the entirety. CHAIRPERSON Very well then we will adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow to this venue and we will reconvene at 2 o'clock in the afternoon and we will then sit until we have finalised the matter tomorrow. We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS