amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-10 PRETORIA 6 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53460&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99060310_pre_990610pr.htm CHAIRPERSON: ... 10th of June 1999. We are continuing with the amnesty applications of Mayisela and another. Mr Tekane I remind you that you are still under oath, do you understand? NATHANIEL ERIC TEKANE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Richard, have you got any further questions? MR RICHARD Thank you, Chairperson, I do. Before we continue, we were referring to annexures yesterday afternoon and there was one that we didn't clarify and that was that of Mr Hlongwane. For the sake of convenience I've marked in Annexure D. I have referred to it already. CHAIRPERSON Is that the statement dated the 6th of February 1993? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD (cont) Chairperson, that is correct, it was taken on 6 February 1993. So that means A is that of Mrs Satege, B is that of Frank Tekane, C is that of Thabiso Tekane and D is that of Mr Hlongwane. Mr Tekane, we were dealing with the various statements yesterday, when we adjourned, particularly a comparison between that made by Frank Tekane, which was made on the 30th of March 1993, Thabiso Tekane's which was made in 1997, that's now, and Mr Hlongwane, and the Chair and the Committee had asked certain questions. Do you remember where we were? Do you remember that we were questioning how the incident outside the policeman's house took place? Do you remember where we left off yesterday? MR TEKANE Remind me please. MR RICHARD Certainly. Adv de Jager had questioned you as to where each person was and what you had seen, according to my notes, and it appeared that you had seen various things from your vantage point near or at a wall. MR TEKANE Yes. MR RICHARD Now please correct me if I've misunderstood it or got it wrong. You saw what was happening at the door of the truck as it drove past, or was in front of you, stationary. MR TEKANE I did not see because the wall was disturbing my vision. ADV GCABASHE Sorry. You see, Mr Tekane, Mr Richard has asked you two questions, when it was stationary and as it was driving past. You are answering and saying you did not see because of the wall, what is it that you did not see? When the truck was stationary in front of the gate, or when the truck was driving past? It was not stationary at that point. There are two questions there really and you've given one answer, does that answer apply to both? MR TEKANE Let me clarify my question and say I did not when the first shot was fired, I did not see that, but when the car drove in front of us, I saw it. MR RICHARD Now where was each of the people that you could see, was there anyone next to the driver's door as the truck moved away? MR TEKANE I saw Thabiso. MR RICHARD And was there anyone anywhere else near the truck as it drove away? MR TEKANE Mogatle was in front of me. MR RICHARD And how far away from the truck was Mogatle? MR TEKANE He was on the other side of the fence and the vehicle was in the street. I would not estimate, maybe four metres. MR RICHARD And what was Mogatle doing? MR TEKANE When the vehicle approached he shot. I also shot. MR RICHARD And what Thabiso doing? MR TEKANE Thabiso approached from behind us, running after the car. MR RICHARD If I understand correctly he was near the door, was he doing anything other than running? MR TEKANE He was firing. He was running next to the car, firing. MR RICHARD Now the question is the following, did you intend to kill the deceased Constable, when you set out on your operation that evening, that morning? MR TEKANE It was not the intention to kill. MR RICHARD Now the next question is, and I put it to you, it was unnecessary to shoot, was it not? MR TEKANE When attacking an armed person you must know that when he has taken a decision of refusing to hand over his gun to you, he's going to kill you. Now by not shooting him, you'd be taken a risk of being hurt yourselves and be arrested afterwards. MR RICHARD So it is then correct that at all times you foresaw the possibility that there would be gunfire and somebody might be killed or otherwise seriously hurt. MR TEKANE Yes, we had that in mind, even though we tried to avoid it at all costs. MR RICHARD Now in your evidence-in-chief you've made mention of a badge, and the note I've made is that if possible you would take the policeman's badge and use it as evidence. To whom would you exhibit the badge? MR TEKANE We would give it to the people who are above us. MR RICHARD For what purpose? MR TEKANE To record what the MK members have done. MR RICHARD Now let's refer to the incident outside the Terminus Cafe, and the shooting of that vehicle. Who shot first, to remind us, was it your group or was it the people at the bread delivery van? - according to you. MR TEKANE The people from the delivery van shot first. They shot once with a pistol and I shot perhaps three bullets with an AK, just scaring them off. MR RICHARD Now how far away from the deceased' house is the terminus cafe where the shooting with the bread van took place, how far as the two places apart? MR TEKANE It might be from here up to the place where there's a playing field, ground. MR RICHARD Now I would say that the distance between where we sit and the edge of the playing field was possibly 100/150 metres, not further. MR TEKANE Let's put it that way. MR RICHARD In other words you don't mean the centre of the playing field or the other side of the playing field? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD So in other words the terminus cafe and the deceased policeman's house are very close together. I'm just making sure I've understood you correctly. MR TEKANE Yes, you only go over three streets. The other one is just at the other corner, whereas the other is at the far corner. MR RICHARD Now the next thing I wanted clarity on was, we know from Mrs Satege that the deceased worked at the Moroko Police Station, how far away from this place is the Moroko Police Station? ADV GCABASHE Sorry, Mr Richard, which place? MR RICHARD Moroko Police Station. We now know that the terminus cafe, where ... one kilometre, five kilometres, less than a kilometre? MR TEKANE It was quite a distance, but one could reach it on foot. MR RICHARD Now how long would it take to walk or to run from the terminus cafe to the Moroko Police Station? MR TEKANE 10 minutes when one is walking, but when one is running it might be five minutes. And the people who went there were running. MR RICHARD So did you see the people from the bread delivery van run from the scene? MR TEKANE Yes, I saw them. MR RICHARD Now I believe from what I read in these statements, that very shortly after the truck in which the deceased was came to a halt, another vehicle arrived, a police vehicle, is that correct? MR TEKANE I did not notice what happened because I was right at the back and Mr Satege's(?) vehicle was quite a distance from where I was. The people who ran with the car was Thabiso and Mogatle, I was left behind. MR RICHARD Did another vehicle come onto the scene, do you remember? It's along time ago. MR TEKANE This case has been focusing on me for quite a long time. I know of some of the things that happened, through being told. I even learnt that the members of the 10111 were present as well. MR RICHARD So that means - is it correct or not, that you and your group were interrupted in your intention of doing whatever you were going to do with the policeman's firearm? MR TEKANE Yes, we were disrupted at the beginning of this whole thing. MR RICHARD Now taking into account the distance between the Terminus Cafe and the Moroko Police Station, when you saw these people from the van run away, didn't you foresee that police would arrive there at the scene, there'd just been a shooting? MR TEKANE I knew that they would arrive. MR RICHARD But nonetheless you and your group of five people, including yourself, armed as you were, persisted in your attack on the police. MR TEKANE That is correct, we knew that we were not going to attack many people, it was just one person. One other thing, at the incident of the Terminus Cafe, it's quite a distance and the place is hidden, you won't just see it. There are two rows of houses, there's a street and there's a school. MR RICHARD So that meant you were quite confident that there was enough cover where you could hide, between the Terminus Cafe and the policeman's house? - even if reinforcements came to either investigate the shooting of the bread van. MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD Now the evidence is that you were in or near a house at the Terminus Cafe ...(indistinct), is that correct? MR TEKANE When the incident relating to the bakery occurred, yes, that is correct. MR RICHARD How far away from the place where the bread van was parked to where you were hiding was it, was it close or far? ADV DE JAGER Are you referring to where they slept that night, or while the shooting was ... MR RICHARD Chairperson, as I understand it the witness was in-between or near some houses, the bread van had come to a stop outside the cafe, and I'm asking how far it was between where he was and the bread van. MR TEKANE I was hiding here and there was a yard at the corner. The truck could not be fully seen, it was only the rear part of the truck that was visible. And one of them was pointing at me, saying "there's a person". I could even hear what they were saying. Then they shot just once. Because my firearm was facing in their direction, I also fired and they ran away. MR RICHARD Did you see where they ran to, or how far away they ran to? MR TEKANE They ran towards the tarred road where there was light and they ran downwards and I ran towards the other direction. I met with Mogatle, then we saw them running towards the police station. One security man had a pump-gun rifle with him. MR RICHARD Did you go to the truck after you saw them running away? MR TEKANE I'm the only person who went to see as to whether there was anyone remaining. MR RICHARD And once you were near the truck, what did you do? MR TEKANE I noticed that they all ran away. The doors were open and they left everything behind. I left to meet with my group. MR RICHARD Now that was all at approximately 4 o'clock in the morning, wasn't it? MR TEKANE That is correct. MR RICHARD And the shooting at the policeman's house happened at about five, is that not correct? MR TEKANE I believe so. MR RICHARD No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Any questions, Ms Mtanga? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Thank you, Chairperson, I only have two questions. Mr Tekane, in your evidence you've said that you joined the ANC at Lesotho in 1978, alright? MR TEKANE That is correct. MS MTANGA You also mentioned that you were involved in MK activities, underground activities. MR TEKANE That is correct. MS MTANGA Were you an MK member or did you just receive political education from the MK members? Did you join the MK yourself? MR TEKANE I would say I was not an MK at that time, but I was close at being a member, but in the process I ended up being a member of the MK. MS MTANGA When did you join the MK? MR TEKANE I would say 1980, that was my second year in Lesotho. MS MTANGA And then between 1980 and 1990, when you were a member of the SD Unit, what were you involved in, what activities were you involved in? MR TEKANE These activities were classified as internal operations. We were communicating with people who infiltrated the country and those who were bringing the weapons, trying to teach them as to the present situation in the country, trying to explain to them how the roots were working and to give them a hiding place. MS MTANGA Were you a member of any unit then? MR TEKANE Not a member of a specific unit, but I was known that when someone was back in the country that person could be brought to me and I would direct him to where he should go. MS MTANGA No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Mtanga. Panel? ADV DE JAGER When you stole this car in Bloemfontein - I'm not quite sure, but I think you're applying for amnesty or you mentioned it as an item for which you're applying, were you a member of the ANC then? MR TEKANE At that time I was not a member of the ANC, we were just members of the student council that were rioting in those years of 1976. There was an organisation called Student Representative Council, that was formed. ADV DE JAGER But you were - am I correct to say then you were in fact a supporter of the ANC? MR TEKANE Yes, I was a supporter of the ANC. ADV DE JAGER Did anybody order you to steal this car? MR TEKANE I would say the order came from the group. It was necessary for someone to volunteer from the group to do that. ADV DE JAGER Who was this group at that stage? MR TEKANE It was myself, my elder brother, it was Kallie Mafate, it was Pat. It was a group of about five people, and Tammy. These other people left the military activities, they concentrated on their books, they were now into politics of books. ADV DE JAGER At that time, was it the policy of the ANC to authorise this stealing of cars? MR TEKANE What was important at that time was the calling to go to the camps of the ANC outside, how to get there was our own business. ADV DE JAGER How did you get to Bloemfontein? MR TEKANE Our parents took us to Bloemfontein in a car. We were still a group. ADV DE JAGER Couldn't they take you to the border too? MR TEKANE They were afraid. It was also risky to take us to Bloemfontein. They just dropped us and came back. ADV DE JAGER Were you involved in other car theft incidents? MR TEKANE No. ADV DE JAGER You were arrested at that time and the sentence you received, did you go to jail or was it only lashes? MR TEKANE I was still young, I was only given lashes. ADV GCABASHE Mr Tekane, Frank is he a member of your family, is he Tekane as well? MR TEKANE He did not grow up with that surname, but he was very close to us and he ended up using that surname. ADV GCABASHE Was he brought up in your family as a brother? MR TEKANE Frank comes from a poor family. He moved from family to family and when he joined our family, he stayed with us for quite a long time. ADV GCABASHE So at the time of this incident he was living with you at your home as part of your family? MR TEKANE Yes, he was living at the store. He was also assisting my father in the store. ADV GCABASHE Now Thabiso Hlongwane, was he related to you at all, you the Tekane family? MR TEKANE No, he was not related. His name is Sediso. ADV GCABASHE Yes, what did I say? CHAIRPERSON Thabiso. ADV GCABASHE I beg your pardon, Sediso Moketsi. Thank you. He lived at 1337 Rockville, is that in the neighbourhood? Is it very close to your home? MR TEKANE It's very close to the store. It's quite a distance from home. ADV GCABASHE And was he a friend as well as political associate? MR TEKANE He was not a friend, he was a recruit. It was strictly related to politics. ADV GCABASHE Then a slightly different aspect. Let's go to the actual incident at Mr Sitege's house. In your evidence you said something along the lines of; the reason you thought he would hand over his firearm was he was outnumbered, there were so many of you and he was alone. Do you remember that? You said something along that line. MR TEKANE That is what I said. ADV GCABASHE My difficulty with that is, Mr Sitege only saw Thabiso. When he was first confronted one person confronted him, not two, three or four or five, isn't that right? MR TEKANE That is correct. ADV GCABASHE And that was part of the plan, as you understood the plan? MR TEKANE That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Now did you think through that aspect of the plan, that the man might resist seeing a relatively young man pointing a firearm at him, he's a professional policeman. Did you think through what his reaction might be and therefore what you should do in the circumstances? MR TEKANE The plan was that after closing the gate, moving back to the vehicle, Thabiso would approach and point a gun at him, immediately Mogatle would also appear and I would also appear. You know while looking at Thabiso, Mogatle would appear with a machine-gun and I would also appear. Frank and them would also appear. The intention was that he should see people continuously appearing with weapons. In that manner he would surrender and we would take his firearm. But according to the way Thabiso put it, this man was in the process of getting into the car and when, upon seeing him he did something as if he was reaching for a firearm, that's when the shot went off. That is why when Thabiso shot, we also shot when the truck approached in front of us because that was the time when we were also supposed to appear. ADV GCABASHE Thanks. Then one final aspect. You talked about a fence, that you were on one side of the fence and Mogatle was at a different point, just tease that out for me, explain that to me. You were talking of a fence, where were you in relation to Mogatle? MR TEKANE I will demonstrate it. This is the first house and there's a wall, this first house is not fenced, it's only the lawn. Now this is the second and this is the gate here, we were moving from this side and approaching his yard from behind. When he reversed with the car, we moved in the first yard up to the beginning of the wall. It was Thabiso, Mogatle and I was following. After Thabiso's appearance, it was supposed to be Mogatle and me, but now things changed and we were forced to react from where we were. ADV GCABASHE Yes, thank you. ADV DE JAGER How did you get over the wall, through a gate or was it a low wall, what was the position? MR TEKANE This is a wall surrounding Mr Satege's yard, but the first house was unfenced. It's a corner house. The house is here. We do not jump the wall, we approach from the front, that is in the street. We could not because the truck was now coming. We shot from the first yard. ADV DE JAGER Then were you behind a wall? MR TEKANE When the truck was parked outside and he was closing the gate we could not see the other side of the wall. ADV DE JAGER How high is this wall, could you point out the height of the wall? MR TEKANE When the person is on the other side of the wall, you would not see him and we were hiding. ADV DE JAGER But when he was on the sidewalk there was no wall between you and the sidewalk? MR TEKANE From where we were there was a heap of soil, when you are on that heap of soil you would see his yard. ADV DE JAGER And you've just answered that a shot - he was getting into the car, the truck, and a shot went off. Who shot in fact? MR TEKANE According to the knowledge I got after that incident, it was Thabiso. ADV DE JAGER So the policeman himself never fired a shot? MR TEKANE According to the explanation given to me by Thabiso, he shot after realising that he was trying to reach for a gun. ADV DE JAGER Didn't he carry his gun on his person? MR TEKANE I do not know, but what I know is that most of the times when these people are in their cars, they put the gun on the seat or in the cubby-hole. ADV DE JAGER Did you know this policeman, he was staying near to you? MR TEKANE Yes, but I did not stay at home because the police were looking for me. I would only come during certain times and be very careful about my movements. ADV DE JAGER Did this policeman harass the people or don't you know, or what was his position in the community? MR TEKANE I did not know his position in the community, but I knew that he was a member, a uniformed member and driving the vehicles as well and I knew that he was armed with the State's weapons. ADV DE JAGER And he used to move up and down openly in the community? MR TEKANE I do not believe so. ADV DE JAGER Didn't you people watch him before you planned this, what he's doing and what his movements would be? MR TEKANE We only did the reconnaissance in one week. ADV DE JAGER And during that week, did you see him moving within the community or what did you see? MR TEKANE We had never seen him walking among the community. We didn't even know him because he was sort of hiding. ADV DE JAGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Re-examination, Mr Shai? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SHAI Just one aspect, Mr Chair. Now under cross-examination by Mr Richard, you say - that is your evidence today, that you saw Thabiso in front of the motor vehicle and Mogatle was on the other side of the vehicle and Thabiso was firing, is it after he had emerged from behind the wall or at what stage was it? MR TEKANE I don't understand, who are you referring to? MR SHAI Thabiso. MR TEKANE Thabiso shot after he went behind the wall. MR SHAI Now did you see the vehicle emerging simultaneously with Thabiso inside, or did you see the motor first and then Thabiso later? MR TEKANE I saw the vehicle first, then Thabiso. MR SHAI No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHAI ADV GCABASHE Just one small aspect. This gate, was it a recessed gate so that the wall actually went in, say halfway up the driveway you'd have the gate, or was the gate right at the edge along the rest of the wall? I don't know if you understand me. MR TEKANE It was right at the beginning of the wall. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tekane, you're excused. WITNESS EXCUSED