amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-14 PRETORIA N J VERMEULEN AM 4358/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53464&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99060708_pre_990608pt.htm MR CORNELIUS I see we've got 25 minutes, I wish to call NJ Vermeulen, Mr Chair, thank you. N J VERMEULEN (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Vermeulen, you have prepared an application that you have handed up for amnesty for the murder of Johannes Mabotha at Penge Mine, and any other offences which might emanate from this. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS When these events took place you were a Warrant Officer in the South African Police Service and you were stationed at the Vlakplaas unit under the command of Colonel Eugene de Kock, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS At this time you received an instruction from Colonel de Kock to make certain preparations for Penge Mine, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Can you please just briefly tell the Committee what was the discussion with regard to the possible death and burial of Johannes Mabotha? MR VERMEULEN The instruction was that we had to move to Penge Mine and the training premises had to be arranged, that some of the person of C Section would move to the mine. We took some weapons along with us, machine-guns and extra explosives which would be used there, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS There was some discussion between yourself and Mr de Kock, with the possible burial of a person or the blowing up of a person? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. Mr de Kock came there and asked if there was a place where a person could be buried and then I told him that Penge premises was not suitable for burying a person and I proposed to him that explosives be used to get rid of the body. MR CORNELIUS Are you a trained explosives expert? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS How did you determine the charge? MR VERMEULEN 25 kilograms high explosives would have the necessary result that we expected, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS So this would have destroyed any evidence, specifically the body? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS So you knew before you left Vlakplaas that your purpose was to destroy a body? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS At that stage did you know the identity of the person? MR VERMEULEN Not that I can recall, Chairperson. According to my recollection I did not know who the person would be until we arrived at the mine. MR CORNELIUS Did you know it was an Askari? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you know it was a person who had turned and had turned to his previous military comrades? - to put it like that. MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Returned to his previous political organisation who were in a struggle against the then State? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Then you travelled to Penge Mine, who accompanied you? MR VERMEULEN Lionel Snyman accompanied me there, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And what preparations did you make at Penge Mine? MR VERMEULEN We passed security, we went to security and arranged that the vehicle that still had to come would be let through and we received permission to use the training premises, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS So you don't go through a security point, you just got permission? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And at the scene, what did you prepare there? MR VERMEULEN At the scene itself we set up the scene so that it would seem like we were busy with exercises at night. MR CORNELIUS ...(no audible question) MR VERMEULEN 2 LMG light machine-guns were placed in place and the explosives were placed in the vicinity for so long, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS It was mentioned in other applications where persons had received amnesty, that a chair was placed there. MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson, there was no chair in that explosion, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS It's difficult to take a chair with you there, Chairperson. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And no hole was dug where the person was put in? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You prepared the scene and the other persons arrived there later. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS What happened then? MR VERMEULEN The order of the events that took place there I cannot specifically recall, I cannot place myself there because I think most of the time we were already at the hole when the others arrived there. MR CORNELIUS And Mabotha was not tortured or assaulted in your presence or cuffed to a pole? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you or any of the other members consume liquor before the operation was launched? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS What would have happened if you did consume liquor? Was it allowed? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson, it was not allowed to use any alcohol before such an operation. MR CORNELIUS Are you telling the Committee that an Askari who turns and goes back to his previous organisation is a danger for the Security Police during those times? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Would you have regarded him as an enemy of the then political dispensation? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And within your heart did you believe bona fide that Johannes Mabotha could be regarded as an enemy at that stage? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you believe that if he was to be destroyed, that this would serve a purpose for the previous government? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS This was your subjective conviction? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Very well. After you two moved down there it's common cause that the two of you climbed into a vehicle to the side of the hole and then you climbed down into the quarry. MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson, I believe that we drove with our own vehicle ...(intervention) MR CORNELIUS Excuse me, he said that you and Lionel Snyman had already left from there. You moved to the quarry, you were in the quarry, and what happened then? MR VERMEULEN I'm not following you, Sir. MR CORNELIUS You all moved down into the quarry, all the persons who were there, Johannes Mabotha was there, everybody was there. What happened then? MR VERMEULEN Mr Britz and I were already preparing the charge. It was quite dark. I did not have a look at what was going on around me, I was busy with handling the explosives with Mr Britz. A shot was fired, Mr Mabotha's body came to us, we undressed the body and Mr Britz and I placed him around the explosives ...(intervention) MR CORNELIUS Wait a moment. Could it be that two shots were fired? MR VERMEULEN It's possible, I'm not sure and I will not argue against it. MR CORNELIUS Did you see that Johannes Mabotha was shot? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you see who shot him? MR VERMEULEN No, I did not, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And then you positioned him in a sitting position and after that you had undressed him. MR VERMEULEN Yes. MR CORNELIUS Why? MR VERMEULEN Because in an explosion the clothing will not be totally destroyed and the idea was to destroy all the evidence that was there. MR CORNELIUS What happened to the clothes, Mr Vermeulen? MR VERMEULEN After the incident the clothes were burnt, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Very well. Evidence was given here that it was 25 kilograms of charge placed in between his legs. MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you then clear up the premises? MR VERMEULEN After the cortex was wound around the body I went back to where the weapons were and Mr Britz continued with the further arrangements. MR CORNELIUS So he placed the detonators there and made the final arrangements for the explosion? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And after everybody had cleared away from the scene did you ... MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson, we fired some shots with a machine-gun. We all started shooting together when the explosion took place. MR CORNELIUS To cover up the noise? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Who detonated the explosive? MR VERMEULEN It was Dawid Britz, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you investigate the scene afterwards? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson, not that evening. MR CORNELIUS When did you investigate the scene? MR VERMEULEN The following day we moved through there and the explosive that had remained was destroyed in the same hole, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you find any remains of the body? MR VERMEULEN Not that I can remember, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Wouter Mentz and Leon Flores and de Kock returned that evening to Pretoria? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And at all times you executed your orders within the scope of your duties? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS With the political motivation as you have said earlier? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you receive a bonus, receive any money? MR VERMEULEN No, I did not, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You just received your usual salary? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS And you just performed your duties? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Did you have any personal malice towards Mabotha? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS You request amnesty from this Committee for the murder of Johannes Mabotha, conspiracy, offences with regard to the Arms and Ammunition Act, offences with regard to the Dangerous Weapons Act, as well as intimidation and defeating the ends of justice, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That is correct, Chairperson. MR CORNELIUS Thank you, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman. Hattingh on behalf of de Kock. Mr Vermeulen, you say that the man's clothes were burnt afterwards. MR HATTINGH Did you go through the pockets of the clothing? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Were you present when they arrived with him there at the mine? MR VERMEULEN I heard the vehicles coming, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Where were you then? MR VERMEULEN I was already making preparations at the quarry. MR HATTINGH Did you see whether he had any baggage with him? Except for the clothing that he wore, was there anything else that you had burnt of his? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson, not that I am aware of. MR HATTINGH Where did you find the explosives that you had used? MR VERMEULEN We received it from Vlakplaas, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Was it commercial or military type of explosive? MR VERMEULEN It was military charge, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Did you have free access to such explosives? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson, we received it from the weapon storage. MR HATTINGH But I mean at Vlakplaas, was there a lot of these explosives there? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH The terrain there, Mr Vermeulen, it is a place where they mined asbestos? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. When we investigated the scene much later they had already started with the rehabilitation of the area by covering up the asbestos remains with a metre of soil. Was it done then already or was it not done yet? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So with regard to the asbestos remains, it was still open? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Were there hills, holes and such, was it not uneven? MR VERMEULEN Yes, it was uneven, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH So there were reasonably high embankments where the rest of, the remains of the asbestos were left? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR HATTINGH Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR LAMEY Lamey on behalf of Klopper, Mr Chairman, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS Roeloff du Plessis on behalf of Mentz, Mr Chairman. A few questions. Mr Vermeulen, can you recall if any liquor was present at the mine? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Can you recall that there was? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Can you recall how it got there? MR VERMEULEN It was my own personal liquor that we took along to consume after the exercise. MR DU PLESSIS And what was it, beer? MR VERMEULEN It was beer, Chairperson. There could have been hard liquor, but I only drink beer. MR DU PLESSIS Did anybody else bring any liquor along or do you not know? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot say, but I think Lionel also had his own liquor. MR DU PLESSIS And is it possible that Wouter Mentz also had his own liquor? MR VERMEULEN It is possible, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Are you saying that before the operation or before the death of Mr Mabotha, you had not consumed any liquor? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And where were you exactly before the death of Mr Mabotha? MR VERMEULEN I was inside the hole with the explosives. MR DU PLESSIS How long were you there approximately? MR VERMEULEN That's difficult to say because we were putting out the wires there, we made the weapons stand there. MR DU PLESSIS It may have been a long while. MR VERMEULEN Yes, it could have been a long while, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And in the meantime the others were there where Mr Mabotha was questioned. MR VERMEULEN Yes, they were close to the ruins, yes. MR DU PLESSIS So you don't know what had happened up there at the house? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS So you don't know whether Mr Mentz had consumed liquor before Mr Mabotha's death? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And can you recall if Wouter Mentz had drunk with you afterwards? MR VERMEULEN I cannot recall, Chairperson, because if I have my facts correctly they immediately left after the explosion. MR DU PLESSIS But it is possible that he might have consumed some liquor afterwards. MR VERMEULEN It may be, Chairperson, but we did not drink directly after the explosion, it must have been an half an hour or so later. MR DU PLESSIS You were not up at the house, so therefore you cannot comment about Wouter Mentz' evidence that Mabotha was cuffed to a pole? MR VERMEULEN No, I cannot, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS You say there was no chair onto which he was placed before he was blown up? MR VERMEULEN No, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Why do you think that Mr Mentz would have said that, or do you know? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Chairperson, I don't have the vaguest idea. MR DU PLESSIS Where does he come with this chair story? MR VERMEULEN I don't know, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Is it possible that at that stage he was under the influence of alcohol? Do you concede that it's a possibility? MR VERMEULEN I doubt it, Chairperson. It may be, but I doubt it. MR DU PLESSIS I have not further questions, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR WAGENER Jan Wagener, Chairperson, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER CHAIRPERSON What would Mr de Kock's attitude have been if Mr Mentz had been there under the influence of alcohol? MR VERMEULEN Mr de Kock wouldn't have tolerated that, Sir. MR MARIBANA Chair, it's Maribana for the Mabotha family. MR ROSSOUW I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA Thank you, Mr Chairman, JC Maribana for the Mabotha family. Mr Vermeulen, I just want to find out one thing here. You said that you were an expert in explosives, is that correct? MR VERMEULEN That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR MARIBANA And I just want to find out for how long before this incident you were being equipped with the knowledge of using explosives. MR VERMEULEN From 1976, Mr Chairman. MR MARIBANA So lastly, Mr Vermeulen, were you regularly contacted or requested by Mr de Kock or some of your colleagues to assist in exploding the bodies? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MR MARIBANA Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARIBANA CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL Ramula Patel. Sir, in your application you've stated that after you had got to Penge Mine, that de Kock and some other members of Vlakplaas came there with a black man who was then questioned by de Kock. Can you recall whether Mr de Kock came there at the same time as everybody else? MR VERMEULEN As far as I can recall, Mr de Kock came after Mr Britz' vehicle arrived, Mr Chairman. MS PATEL How long after, Sir? M' VERMEULEN I'm not sure, I can't put a time limit to that, Mr Chairman. MS PATEL Was it a short while or an hour, two hours? MR VERMEULEN I would say it was a short while. MS PATEL Short while, okay. And your information here that the person was questioned by Mr de Kock, were you present during that time? MR VERMEULEN No, I wasn't there at that stage, I was already in the hole, in the quarry. MS PATEL Okay. Is your evidence that as soon as Mr de Kock arrived at Penge Mine, that you then went down to the quarry? MR VERMEULEN Ja, that is correct. MS PATEL Did you have to drive to the quarry? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairman. MS PATEL Okay. Can you give us a rough estimate of how long you were in the quarry before Mr de Kock came there with Mr Mabotha? MR VERMEULEN I would say about roughly an half an hour. MS PATEL Half an hour. MR VERMEULEN Yes. MS PATEL Were you close enough when you were in the quarry, to witness what was going on between Mr de Kock and Mr Mabotha? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairman, I was close enough, but at that stage I wasn't attending to their stories, I was busy with the explosives. MS PATEL Okay. Can you recall whether you heard a discussion between ... MR VERMEULEN No, I didn't hear any discussion. MS PATEL So there was no talking from anybody? MR VERMEULEN I didn't listen. Even if there were any discussions, I wouldn't have been listening to it. MS PATEL So you can't tell us in what state Mr Mabotha would have been at that stage either? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman. MS PATEL Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL CHAIRPERSON Re-examination? MR CORNELIUS I have no re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS MR SIBANYONI Just one question, Mr Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, Mr Britz says when he saw you at Penge Mine it was for the first time that he realised that Mabotha was going to be killed. Do you know why he says so? MR VERMEULEN No, Mr Chairman, I don't know why he said that. MR SIBANYONI Thank you, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You had explosives there, didn't you? MR VERMEULEN Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED MR HATTINGH Nine thirty, Mr Chair. MACHINE SWITCHED OFF MR DU PLESSIS Yes, there were some hiccups, Mr Chair, which I won't go into. CHAIRPERSON Nine thirty. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS