amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1999-06-07 PIETERMARITZBURG 1 PRAVEEN RAMDAS: ANILRAJ SINGH 6327/? PIETERMARITZBURG HIT SQUAD https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53465&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99060709_pmb_990607pm.htm CHAIRPERSON On the roll this session of hearing, and we'll be starting with the matter involving the applicants, Messrs A Singh and P Ramdas. Before we start, I'd just like to introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Mr Wynand Malan, he is a Commissioner of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. He is from Johannesburg. On my left is Judge Ronnie Pillay, he's a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, Port Elizabeth. And I am Selwyn Miller, also a Judge of the High Court, also from the Eastern Cape, but from Umtata. I'd also at this stage request the legal representatives kindly to place themselves on record. MS LOONAT Good morning, Mr Chairperson, I'm Sureena Loonat and I am here for the applicants, Mr Ramdas and Mr Singh. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS JALEEL Thank you, Mr Chairperson, my name is Shireen Jaleel, I'm an attorney from Shireen Jaleel and Associates, I represent the families of the victims. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS LOCKHAT My name is Lyn Lockhat and I appear on behalf of the Commission. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS INTERPRETATION EQUIPMENT MS LOCKHAT Chair, we'll commence with the applicant, Praveen Ramdas. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Loonat. PRAVEEN RAMDAS: (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS LOONAT Mr Ramdas, how old are you? MR RAMDAS 41 years old. MS LOONAT Are you married? MR RAMDAS Yes, married, but my wife passed away. MS LOONAT When was this? MR RAMDAS In February last year. MS LOONAT Whilst you were in prison. Is that correct? MR RAMDAS Whilst I was in prison, that's right. MS LOONAT Please tell the Committee Members how you were employed before your trial. MR RAMDAS I was a policeman and had 17 years service. MS LOONAT Where were you stationed? MR RAMDAS I was stationed at Mountain Rise. MS LOONAT Which is in Pietermaritzburg? MR RAMDAS That's correct, in Pietermaritzburg. MS LOONAT Did you testify at your trial? MR RAMDAS No, I did not testify. MS LOONAT So a lot has not been said from your side, is that correct? MR RAMDAS That is correct. MS LOONAT Did you make any statements? MR RAMDAS No statements. MS LOONAT What can you tell the Members of the Committee about your activity leading to your being here today? MR RAMDAS Okay. During 1991, 1992, I was made Unit Commander of the Special Constables at Mountain Rise Police Unit. Later I was transferred to Imbali as a Station Head at a Sub-Station. In 1978, way back in 1978, when I joined the Police Force I was sent on border duties and other courses, that is the vehicle course, the border training, riot control course." MS LOONAT I'm sorry, Mr Ramdas, is this going to lead us to how you became, how you formed the hit squad? Is that correct? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. Okay. Here we were told that the ANC was the enemy of the country and they were the terrorists and that they were very aggressive and also we should be very wary of the ANC. MS LOONAT Who's we that you talk about, please? MR RAMDAS People on the course. MS LOONAT Who were the people on the course? MR RAMDAS The people who attended the courses, they were policemen who attended. MS LOONAT Yes, but who told you? MR RAMDAS The instructors at the course. MS LOONAT Please continue. MR RAMDAS This was the teaching from the force way back when I joined and this teaching got passed on from generation to generation. By older policemen to the new policemen. Those days the war was between the terrorists and the State. It was mostly limited to the borders. This was classed as bush warfare and during these times it was only our National Servicemen that was used to be shot and very seldom does a policeman get shot. During 1991, I was sent on a highly specialised intensive course called a SWAT Course. It actually means specialised weapons, arms and tactics course. This course was not like any other course that I've been on. Other courses were mostly survival courses, crowd control, etc. But this course was purely an attack course. Beside the aspect of debussing and the use of handgrenades, etc, the major part of the course was the house penetration, which as I gathered is one of the most deadly attack in the world. It was created, designed and perfected by the United States Marine Corps, Navy SEALS Division. It was taught to, and used by, the Cape ...(indistinct) trainees, and at the same time it was being taught to the South African Police by members like example Captain O'Connell, who were stationed at Oribi Unit 8. Just for the record, I would like to say that this course would remove the use grenades etc, it's never used by normal policemen in the course of their duties, like with attending complaints or doing investigations. The SWAT, the senior person on SWAT Course was Captain O'Connell, who did the lectures and instructed, together with Warrant Officer Prinsloo. We were told on course that the ANC had been unbanned in 1990 and that the terrorists, the ANC terrorists would be able to move freely in our towns and cities, without being easily detected. They further stated ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Mr Ramdas, tell me, do you know why you were chosen to go on this course? MR RAMDAS Why I was chosen? There were members from the station, they pick at random. They did pick and send me to course. JUDGE PILLAY That's what I was trying to find, if it was just random choices? MR RAMDAS Yes, the Station Commander makes the decision, sir. CHAIRPERSON And the trainees on that course came from various stations around the area. MR RAMDAS Various stations. That is right. Various stations and throughout the province as well. CHAIRPERSON And it was all SAP or were there any KZP trainees? MR RAMDAS They were all policemen, South African Police. CHAIRPERSON South African, not KwaZulu Police? MR RAMDAS No, no. They were just South African Policemen. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RAMDAS He further stated on course, that's the Captain, that the old system of bush warfare is over and a new era of urban terrorism is on the brink. The terrorism in the cities has started and the targets are no longer National Service policemen, National Servicemen, but the targets are now policemen. The Captain warned us of policemen that play a dual role in the sense that they are employed by the police and they're also active members of the ANC. The Captain also told us that this type of policeman are dangerous to the police and the nation as a whole. And that their actions by passing on information will cost the lives of innocent people. He further showed us a video tape of all police killings in the country and explained to us not only are policemen being killed but they were being robbed of their firearms as well. I was very disturbed by the tape that I saw. I was not impressed with the new system of urban bush war, urban warfare, and I was terrified by the fact that policemen were being targeted, for the sole reason that he was a lawman, that is, lawman, a law-abiding citizen wanting to implement safety and security for his family and fellow countrymen. The Captain put it to us that the police killing will still go on and we are all targets of the ANC. As policemen we are being killed and then ...(indistinct) choosing the race or age, all these things, and these were proof were on the videos that I have seen. Further, our policemen don't have a fighting chance as they are unsuspecting of the fact that they have been lured into an ambush and killed. He said in a lecture that it will take a force beyond a force to stop the ANC from killing policemen. After the video show there was a five minute smoke break and I approached the Captain and I asked what does he mean by this. And the Captain told me again that the ANC is out of control and that it will take a force beyond a force to stop the ANC. I asked him and he told me, "come now, Warrant, you're a senior policeman, you can figure it out and do the necessary." I told him, "Captain, if it's what I think you're saying, then policemen will get involved and lose their jobs and go to jail." He said if that's the cost, either lose your job or lose your life as the situation of police killings is getting "out of hand". I also asked him, I mean he also told me that if I want to be a statistic together with other dead policemen ...(intervention) MR MALAN Sorry for interrupting, can you just say again, who was this individual you were talking to? MR RAMDAS That is Captain O'Connell. MR MALAN Captain O'Connell. MR RAMDAS I honestly and firmly believed what the Captain told me about losing my job and my lives. The people were back from the smoke break and we carried on with the lectures. Then the Captain went on to say that if the ANC takes over, our policemen could lose their jobs to MK, lose their medical aid, pension and the MK will fill in the top positions and we will be left out in the cold. This also initiated a sense of fear in the Police Force as a whole. We felt insecure about our futures. This is ...(indistinct) after the lecture we met at the car park. The policemen at the lecture were discussing what the Captain had said. We were also lectured about the R5 rifle, how it was designed and it was only made, it was only made for police use only. They told us that the ANC terrorists had AK47s with a shooting rate of 650 rounds per minute. And that we with our 9 mm and our short guns had no chance against them. This is why the R5 was issued to the police and that it had a better shooting rate as the AK47. And the police could fight back the enemy of the government. That was, the government at that time was the National Party, and I was being paid by the government of the National Party because it was my job. Based on this fact, we could see that the government and the Police Force wanted and expected the police to fight the ANC by the tactical knowledge that was imparted to us, by superior arms being provided, the change in content of information passed on from course to course over the years. That is from survival to attack, once the ANC was disbanded. We were indoctrinated into believing that the ANC and MK were the terrorists and by the fear that was put into us by lectures, videos, etc, we knew that the police had to take a stand against the ANC. MS LOONAT Excuse me, Mr Ramdas, you keep saying "we". How many of you were present? MR RAMDAS There were on course about 20 or 30 of us, I think. I'm not too sure at this stage, but it was a big class that we had. MS LOONAT And did you all have the same feelings when you discussed this during your tea breaks? MR RAMDAS Yes, we had more or less generally the same feelings. MS LOONAT For the record, are you a member of the IFP? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. MS LOONAT And all those that were present at the lectures, do you know what their political affiliations? MR RAMDAS No, I don't, I didn't ask. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Ramdas, when you say you're a member of the IFP, were you a card carrying member? Had you actually formally gone and joined and became a member of the IFP or were you, by saying you're a member are you saying that you were a supporter? MR RAMDAS I was a supporter of the IFP. Now I'm a card carrying member. At that stage when we were in the Police Force we don't have to have a card because our appointment certificate would serve as a card. Because we were fighting with the IFP. Can I carry on, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Certainly, but is it not the position that at that time, well, sorry, at that time were you allowed to become members of political parties, as a policeman? MR RAMDAS After '78, '79, no, '88, '89, most of the policemen they took sides as to who to who was ANC, who was IFP. JUDGE PILLAY No, we're not talking about those who supported various parties. Was it not the position that members of the Police Force were not allowed to become members of political parties? MR RAMDAS That is correct. JUDGE PILLAY Was that the situation during this period? MR RAMDAS I could not say ... JUDGE PILLAY In your case? MR RAMDAS When I joined in 1978, we were told that we could not join any political organisation. JUDGE PILLAY But you joined. MR RAMDAS Yes, I joined. JUDGE PILLAY That time. MR RAMDAS In 19, no, no, not in 1978 no. I joined about '89, '90. MS LOONAT Were you advised that you ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Sorry, when you say you joined in '89, '90 ... MR RAMDAS That is correct. JUDGE PILLAY Did you receive a membership card of IFP? Is that what ... MR RAMDAS No, not then. JUDGE PILLAY So you didn't formally join them? MR RAMDAS No, not formally join them, no. JUDGE PILLAY Well, can we get this straight. Were you a member of the IFP at that stage or were you a supporter? MR RAMDAS I was a supporter at the time. JUDGE PILLAY Okay. Thank you. When did you become a member? MR RAMDAS In 1993. 1993, Chairperson. MS LOONAT How did you become a member in 1993? MR RAMDAS I asked my family to go to the IFP office and get a card because at that stage, I found it necessary to have a card. MS LOONAT Were you not advised that because you were a member of the police, and you were allowed to go freely in uniform in the IFP areas, you would be known to be a supporter? Was that your advice when you applied for membership? MR RAMDAS For membership card. Because we should use our appointment certificates and we shouldn't get attacked. But if we went to a ANC area, we, our vehicles got damaged, we would have been attacked or ambushed. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may continue, Mr Ramdas. MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON You may continue. MR RAMDAS Thank you. The lectures also stated that the IFP, although they were also black people, that they are no threat to the government or to the police. They in KwaZulu-Natal have their own Police Force called the KwaZulu Police and they have the same common enemy as the police and this was the ANC. We were told that policemen were able to go into IFP areas without being harmed, but we were warned against going to ANC strongholds, example ...(indistinct), as we might be ambushed and killed. The Police Force which is the highest force in the country had to be subjected to no-go areas demarcated by the ANC. It was quite evident that the IFP was the friend of the police and that the ANC was the terrorist. The leader of the ANC, that is Mr Mandela, he was a criminal who had just been out of jail. He was also a former Commander of the MK, whilst the leader of the IFP was a royal prince, that is, Mr Buthelezi. So as a policeman employed by the government, we had to take orders and that my heart would fit the cause. On SWAT Course, the Captain told us ....(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Which course? MR RAMDAS That fighting the ANC. On SWAT Course, the Captain told us that he has received information from the Security Branch that the ANC Youths were under instruction from the leadership, Peter Mokaba, who stated they must continue the armed struggle and if they don't have the guns they must take it from the police. This is quite evident that the ANC had its heart to set out to kill policemen and rob them of the firearms. What can be seen from all this is that the top brass of the ANC to the Youth, it was a constitution to destroy the Police Force and take their arms. This was a tip to the police for sure and the police was not going to take it sitting down. I was personally so motivated to go and take the Captain's advice and create my own force beyond a force, especially now that I have tactical knowledge, the right information as to who was killing our policemen and why, and knowing that I had, or I did, in knowing that I could be next if I didn't take a positive stand in the issue. I was just one man and there was no possible way that I could take on a giant like the ANC alone. So I just let this point lie, in time lie in my head. I didn't act on it. Then once working, I attended the shooting of Constable Blom. He was shot at the corner of Retief and Boom Street. On arrival there, there was Constable Singh, Constable Peters, Warrant Officer Otto and myself. I spoke to Constable Ali who was, who was the van driver. He said the MK soldiers had shot Constable Blom. Constable Blom complained of pain to his right leg, but when on closer inspection, found that he had a bullet wound to his chest. He stated to me that MK has shot him and that they were dressed in uniform. The firearm that was used to kill Blom was stolen from a policeman in Pinetown. That we later established when we arrested the MK soldiers. Seeing the videos of dead policemen on the SWAT Course had an effect on me, but also, but when a colleague dies in front of me, had a serious impact on me. It's something, something that I cannot explain, but nearly blows your mind away. Some time later, at Mountain Rise Police Station I saw the special constables changing their, changing to their private uniform. This seemed strange to me and I enquired from them why they were changing. They said they were not safe in uniform because ANC supporters will kill them if they go to the locations dressed like that. They were classed as sell-outs and the white man's dogs. Seeing the specials, seeing that the specials were scared of the ANC supporters, I asked them which party they belonged to, and they told me that they belonged to the IFP and that they lived in Sweetwaters, Elandskop, etc. In the back of my mind I had the intention to form the hit squad. So I needed more members. So I just put a feeler to them, to the specials to see what reaction I get. I told them that the ANC is full of shit and we should take a stand and fight against them. To my surprise, I got a positive response. That was, there were about 15 specials there ...(intervention) MR MALAN Sorry, why do you say you were surprised? Didn't you say that they were all, that they already said they were all IFP members? MR RAMDAS Yes, I didn't expect them to give me a positive response, because although they were policemen, some of them are frightened to do anything like this, to do killings and whatever. MR MALAN No, but you asked them about their attitude towards the ANC and you were surprised, you said. MR RAMDAS Yes. I told them that the ANC is full of shit and we should take a stand and fight against them. And to my surprise, I got, because they wanted, how can I put it to you, Chairperson, I didn't expect them to say, ja, okay, listen Warrant, let's form a hit squad, let's go ... MR MALAN No. But you didn't suggest a hit squad, did you? MR RAMDAS No, no, I didn't suggest it. MR MALAN So why were you surprised when they said we need to fight the ANC. Wasn't that the policy of the government at the time? MR RAMDAS Not really the policy, Chairperson. MR MALAN But was it not the policy of the government, as you understood it, to fight the ANC or the Police Force? MR RAMDAS That is correct, to fight the ANC. MR MALAN You were told at this course that there was already a change in the strategy, that it wasn't a bush war any more, it was urban. MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN So why were you surprised? MR RAMDAS Because of the reaction. I hadn't expected so many of them to say, to say yes. They were just, I expected one or two of them. MS LOONAT Mr Ramdas, if I may assist. Had you put to them that you were now going to form your own hit squad? Is that what you were surprised at that they were prepared to join your own hit squad? MR RAMDAS Yes, that is correct. MS LOONAT And you didn't expect this reaction, why? MR RAMDAS This reaction. Because it was something illegal. MR MALAN No, sorry, Mr Ramdas, you're confusing me now. I put it to you that on your version you said that you must fight the ANC, that you did not tell them about a hit squad, simply the fighting. MR RAMDAS Just the fighting only. MR MALAN Now, your legal representative put it to you that you told them that you wanted to form a hit squad. And you answered in the positive thereto. What is the story? MR RAMDAS At that stage, Chairperson, is this correct, it's a slight correction. At that stage, I didn't talk to them about a hit squad. At a later stage, I did. Which I'm coming to now, Chairperson. MR MALAN All right. So at that stage you did not talk about a hit squad. MR RAMDAS No, it was at a police station and I told the special constables that was not a place to talk about and I will see them later. MR MALAN Sorry, you told them what? MR RAMDAS This is not a safe place to talk about things like this. JUDGE PILLAY Like what, Mr Ramdas? MR RAMDAS About talking about fighting the ANC. CHAIRPERSON Yes, continue. MR RAMDAS After speaking to, I told them that I will speak to the, Constable Singh who was in charge of them. I was overall in charge. Constable Singh was second in charge. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Ramdas, were you at this stage a Warrant Officer? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. I proceeded to Constable Singh's house with intentions of talking to Singh about forming a hit squad. He agreed and he said that some of the specials that are working under him are good people and that they will join in. And when I mean good people that they will agree. JUDGE PILLAY Now, before you continue. I understand your evidence you were busy now preparing the establishment of a hit squad? MR RAMDAS That is correct. JUDGE PILLAY As illegal as it may have been. MR RAMDAS That is correct. JUDGE PILLAY As a Warrant Officer you were doing that. Who did you answer to? Who was handling you? MR RAMDAS Who was handling my? JUDGE PILLAY You. MR RAMDAS Who was handling me? I was working under the Station Commander. JUDGE PILLAY Who, who was that? MR RAMDAS It was Colonel Buttle. JUDGE PILLAY In forming this hit squad? MR RAMDAS No, no, no. JUDGE PILLAY Well, that's what I was talking about. In forming the hit squad who would you have to take orders from? MR RAMDAS No, I on my own, I formed this hit squad. JUDGE PILLAY A private hit squad? MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY So you didn't get instructions to form this hit squad. You took it on your own, being influenced by this course ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS By the SWAT Course and what the Captain had told me about it. JUDGE PILLAY So when you committed any offence in your capacity as a member of this hit squad, you'd not have to report to anybody. MR RAMDAS No. JUDGE PILLAY Do I understand that correctly? MR RAMDAS No. JUDGE PILLAY Not even Captain O'Connell? MR RAMDAS No, I wouldn't have reported to him. While speaking to Constable Singh, he stated to me that three or four of the specials are staying with him in the same flat. Singh called them and we had a small meeting in his house. It was Constable Indaba, Constable Norman, Constable Singh and myself were present. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Ramdas, if you could just please repeat those names. MR RAMDAS Constable Indaba, Constable Norman Nkono, Constable Anilraj Singh and myself. Okay? Constable Norman told me that if you want to form a hit squad, he has two civilians, IFP members, who might be keen to join. I told Norman that it's okay. We'd meet here tomorrow, you bring your two friends, we'll have another meeting. The next day, I went to Singh's house and was introduced to Joe and Isaacs. They were civilians. At this meeting, I was introduced to them. I explained to them why I wanted to form this hit squad, and some of them even put a positive input towards the discussions. Joe stated that his leader in chief, leader and chief, would be happy to hear this. His name was Skiza Zuma, Skiza Zuma. That was his chief. He stated that Skiza was attacked several times by the ANC, and that he might help us to further this cause. Indaba stated that this was also his chief and that he did know him well, and that he was his neighbour. I nominated Constable Indaba as a spokesman and a middleman. He was to go tell Zuma of our intentions and ask Zuma for arms or possible names of ANC targets or trouble- causers. Constable Williams who worked under me, I asked him if he wants to join the hit squad and he said and he agreed. Whilst working in Imbali Police Station, Constable Singh came with the casspir and we wanted to go and see Mr Zuma. So it was Constable Singh, Constable Indaba, Williams and myself, proceeded to Zuma's house. MS LOONAT Mr Ramdas, can you remember roughly when this was that you went to Mr Zuma's house? MR RAMDAS No, no, no. I don't know around the date. MS LOONAT Was it after the SWAT Course was completed? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. Constable Indaba, he showed us the way to Zuma's house. When we reached Zuma's house, Williams stayed in the vehicle to listen to the radio, the police radio. Indaba, Constable Singh and myself jumped off the vehicle. There I was introduced to Skiza Zuma. He told me that he got a message from Indaba and that he had sent two firearms and also one name. Zuma said that he was expecting some other policemen ...(intervention) MR MALAN What name did he give you? MR RAMDAS That was of Sipho Ndlovu, that was a person I will come to now. Zuma said that he was expecting some policeman and he doesn't want us to be seen with him. He said that we should leave. He said that Indaba would be used as a middleman and that he will send some more names later on. Zuma also showed us his LDV van which was bullet-ridden and said that he was shot by ANC. I could see that Zuma was a target of the ANC and that, in my opinion, he was a target. He was willing to assist us in our fight, in our plight and attempts to stop the ANC from furthering their cause. Zuma stated that he was glad that we had formed a squad and that we were working together now with the IFP and that was the first and last meeting at his house. This meeting was held, I think it was about October 91, I think it's around there. I also attended a few meetings at the Ranch Hall, that is at Oribi, as well, and also at Marawa House in Edendale. Whilst at a meeting at Marawa House, I saw high-ranking officers of the army present, members of the IFP, high-ranking officers of the police, namely Colonel Vorster, Captain Brian Mitchell, Captain O'Connell and other Station Commanders, and officers of the KwaZulu Police were present at these meetings. Colonel Vorster in this meeting stated that he issued the self-defence units with firearms. They were called SDUs. He stated he also issued firearms to the indunas. He stated that when he issued the firearms he issued letters of authorisation from his office. Colonel Vorster said that the IFP SDUs must work closely with the police. Colonel Vorster stated to me that he will transfer me to Imbali Police Station. After seeing such actions, after seeing the actions and attitudes of such high-ranking policemen, this again reinforced my belief that if I sided with the IFP it's the right thing to do. And we have a common enemy, that is the ANC. Chairperson, I now come to the first hit that I have. My first hit, I called it the hit at Sweetwaters Location, namely Ghanda-Ghanda Location. It was around ....(intervention) MR MALAN Spell that, please. CHAIRPERSON What location? MR RAMDAS Ghanda-Ghanda CHAIRPERSON Ghanda hyphen same again. MR RAMDAS Same name. Ghanda-Ghanda Location. This was around the 11th to 12th month in '91. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, is this close to Maritzburg? MR RAMDAS It's at, near, just before Hilton, yes, it's in Maritzburg. This location is one of the several ANC strongholds near Pietermaritzburg area. Indaba came back after meeting Zuma and said that Skiza Zuma gave him the name of the possible ANC target in the said area. We were further told that Ndlovu was some sort of financial leader, I mean he was some sort of leader in the area and that he was responsible for several attacks on the IFP homestead in the Sweetwaters region, and further, during March 1990, that one was the seven day war in Edendale, Ndlovu was one of the king pins who instigated attacks on IFP members and their homes. In no uncertain terms, it was explained to us that Ndlovu was an ANC warlord. I immediately made up my mind to have him shot as I could see that he was a threat to the IFP people in Pietermaritzburg. And that he was a threat to my policemen who lived in the immediate vicinity of Sweetwaters Location, Edendale Location, Henley Dam and Elandskop area. A meeting was convened at Anil's flat, that is Singh's flat, in Timlas Road that same night. And I gave the final instructions for Ndlovu to be killed. I instructed that Constable Indaba he wears a dress so that he could pass as a female. Constable Nkono would walk with him. We all jumped into the police van and proceeded to Hilton Road. The police van was parked at the corners of Sweetwaters Main Road and Hilton Road. There were five of us in the vehicle. Constable Indaba and Nkono left the van and walked towards Ndlovu's house. Constable Singh and myself walked behind them but at a distance away, giving them cover. Constable Williams, he sat in the vehicle to listen to the radio. The reason why we were behind Constables Norman and Indaba is to give them cover and to see that they don't get attacked. They went to the said house, to Ndlovu's house, and both Constable Norman and Constable Indaba shot Ndlovu at point blank range. JUDGE PILLAY This police van, was it marked? MR RAMDAS Yes, it was marked. But it was parked far away from there. It was parked at the corner of Hilton and Sweetwaters Road. MR MALAN Didn't you say Hilton and Main? MR RAMDAS Hilton Main Road and Sweetwaters Road. That's right. Both Constable Indaba and Norman ran past us and we followed. It is unknown what has become of this man since. But we know that he was struck by at least one round. CHAIRPERSON Did you hear whether he died or not? Or did you hear that he survived the attack? MR RAMDAS No, I don't know. I don't know. Because we ran away from there ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, I know, but I mean you don't have to be at the scene of the crime to know whether the victim survived or not, you can, you can, what I'm getting at is if you are a hit squad and you identify a specific target, Mr Ndlovu, because in your view he is a warlord causing a lot of strife and grief, and you go and make a fairly elaborate plan getting one of your hitmen dressed up as a woman, etc, and you go there and you shoot. Don't you make a follow-up to find out what happened, whether you shot him in the toe and there's no problem with him or whether he's dead? MR RAMDAS If you shoot a man at point blank range, you expect him to die. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but did you hear whether he had died or not? MR RAMDAS No. CHAIRPERSON Did you make any enquiries? Did you look in the Death Column in the Natal Witness, or anything like that? Did you establish whether he died ... MR RAMDAS I went to the Police Station and had a look at the CR register, where the crime register is and I found that there was no case opened, there was no, no one had been murdered or anything like that. CHAIRPERSON So, what did Indaba tell you? MR RAMDAS Indaba just told me that he shot the person at point blank range. CHAIRPERSON Did he say that he fell to the ground? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. He said he fell to the ground, when he was on the floor, they ran away from there. CHAIRPERSON But you don't know whether, to this day, whether he's dead or alive as a result of that shooting? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I mean whether he's dead as a result of that shooting. MR RAMDAS No, I don't know. JUDGE PILLAY Was this incident one of the incidents upon which you were brought to trial? MR RAMDAS I was not charged for this case, Chairperson. MS LOONAT On behalf of my client, I wish to say that he's just making a disclosure that he was responsible for this attack. MR RAMDAS That is correct. I was not charged on this count and I would like to apply for amnesty on this count. This Sipho Ndlovu, I had nothing personal against him. At this time, it was a state of war, we were there to kill him and to remove him as a political opponent. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Ramdas, was anybody charged in respect of that shooting? Do you know? Mr Indaba or Mr Nkono? MR RAMDAS No, they were not charged. I've come to another similar incident. JUDGE PILLAY Where did you get Ndlovu's address from? MR RAMDAS That was given to me by Skiza Zuma. JUDGE PILLAY What was the address? MR RAMDAS He stated that he will be staying near, when you're going up, he just gave directions there and where to find this man. JUDGE PILLAY I'm asking you about those directions. Can you share that with us? MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. If you're going, I don't know the name of the, if you turn right off Sweetwaters Road, you've got 100 or 150 metres to your right, the first lot of houses, it's the first house on the right. That's what he mentioned. That is the directions that we got. JUDGE PILLAY Please be more specific, so I can try and understand that. You say ... MR RAMDAS About 150 metres from the road ... JUDGE PILLAY Which road, how do you travel now to Sweetwaters? MR RAMDAS Okay, Hilton Road runs this way, Sweetwaters Road went up. On the right hand side, about 100 metres up from Sweetwaters Road, the first house on the right. JUDGE PILLAY Is that the first house on Sweetwaters Road? MR RAMDAS Yes, that is right. JUDGE PILLAY Are there other houses? MR RAMDAS There were other houses behind. JUDGE PILLAY But nothing closer to Hilton Road? MR RAMDAS No, it was like a secluded spot. That only house and then there were other houses behind that one. It was like one hut there and there were other huts behind. A distance away. CHAIRPERSON Is it, is it in the countryside or is it ... MR RAMDAS In the countryside. There's no tarred roads and all that. CHAIRPERSON That, that area, which police station did it fall under? MR RAMDAS Hilton Police Station. CHAIRPERSON Did you make enquiries at Hilton whether ... MR RAMDAS ...(indistinct). I just went to visit the station. CHAIRPERSON And there was no report of the shooting, no complainant in other words? MR RAMDAS No, nothing, Chairperson. Our second hit was at Jesmondene, which is another ANC stronghold in the Northdale area. The camp, together with the Swapo camp, ANC camp, were actually camps filled with ANC members who fled the Edendale area during and after the seven day war in the 1990s. This area was a no-go area for the IFP. They left the Edendale Location and relocated in the Northdale area close to us. The two civilians that I spoke about, they were attacked at Diesel Centre. And once the ANC members recognised them as, recognised Joe and Isaacs as IFP members, they attacked them with sticks, iron pipes, bush knives on Allandale Drive. That is near Diesel Centre, Chairperson. It was their luck that Constable Singh, Constable Norman Nkono, Indaba and Constable Mohammed were travelling past and they intervened, and they stopped to assist. The men fled into the squatter camp, Jesmondene squatter camp. Later that night, Constable Singh reported to me what had happened. And I told Constable Singh that they should have attacked and killed them immediately, but he said that he will only act on my instructions as he is working under me. That night of the second hit, I briefed him as to what was going to be done and who was going to do the shooting, etc. But Indaba, he volunteered to do the shooting. There were seven of us. We proceeded to the Jesmondene squatter camp near the Diesel Centre. On arrival, we saw a group of men sitting around the burning fire. Constable Indaba and Norman went to one side, Constable Mohammed and Williams stood near the river to block off anyone running away. Constable Singh and myself covered the area of Diesel Centre. Constable Indaba fired about plus minus three shots at the men who were standing around the fire. The men fled in all directions. From the point where I stood, I could not see how many men were hit, up to now, even at this stage. I was not charged for this count and would also like to apply for amnesty in this count. In a spirit of reconciliation I feel that the shooting must be revealed and that let the families of the dead or injured know what has been done ...(indistinct) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Ramdas, was Constable Indaba the only person who fired shots? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you say there were about three shots, two or three shots? MR RAMDAS Two or three shots fired. CHAIRPERSON And did you see anybody fall to the ground? Did it appear as if somebody might have been injured to you, or can't you say? MR RAMDAS No one fell to the ground, because I would have seen. But they ran in all directions. It is possible that someone could have been shot. But I checked the CR Register at Mountain Rise Police Station because I worked there and I found that there was no case opened or anything of that sort. JUDGE PILLAY About how many people were there then? Shot at? MR RAMDAS There were about seven or eight of them around the fire. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just to give us a clearer picture, Mr Ramdas. When Constable Indaba shot at them, could you indicate the approximate distance he was standing from them when he fired the shots. Was it close up, or was it some distance away? MR RAMDAS It was a distance. From here to where this female is standing, I mean in the box there. CHAIRPERSON In the box. So that's probably about 15 paces, and was it a hand gun or R5 or what? MR RAMDAS It was a 7.65. It was a small pistol. That's right. MS LOONAT Mr Ramdas, what was the purpose of you attacking this camp, specifically? MR RAMDAS This was an ANC camp and these are the people that attacked the two IFP people that were in my squad. MS LOONAT What point were you making in doing, in committing this act? MR RAMDAS They were our political opponents and we attacked them. MS LOONAT So there was nobody in particular that you were shooting at? Is that so? MR RAMDAS No. There was no particular person. MS LOONAT You actually were just trying to get a message across to the ANC. MR RAMDAS Across to them, to the ANC. MS LOONAT What message was this? MR RAMDAS Our policy was to try and shoot, shoot at the ANC, to try and disperse them, or even from them joining the ANC, or people who even had this in mind, or even to free the area, and we wanted to make KwaZulu Natal the IFP area. MR MALAN How would they have known that the message comes from the IFP or from your hit squad? MR RAMDAS Can you please repeat, Chairperson? MR MALAN How would they have known where this supposed message were from? MR RAMDAS The people attacked Joe and Isaacs, they were ANC, they were from the camp. They knew Joe and Isaacs, they recognised them from ...(indistinct) the location. They know Joe and Isaacs are IFP. That is how, Chairperson. They knew, they would have got the message that they would have attacked IFP, there was also retaliation back. MR MALAN Yes, but the shooting wasn't by Joe and Isaacs. The shooting according to you, was by Indaba. MR RAMDAS That is correct. MR MALAN And the shooting was at seven individuals, not at the whole of the squatter camp. MR RAMDAS No. Just at the people who were in the squatter camp. The place that they were sitting in was in the squatter camp. The fire was in the squatter camp. We went into the squatter camp. MR MALAN How big is that squatter camp? How many people would have lived there at that stage? MR RAMDAS About two, three hundred. There were quite a few shacks and houses. MR MALAN Seven people sitting around the fire, the squatter camp would have known that it is in retaliation for the shooting on the two IFP members. MR RAMDAS No, they wouldn't have known that those two were IFP people, but they would have got the message that they attack two IFP people, and this is what happened. MR MALAN How would they have had that message? I don't follow the argument. Can you make it clear to me? Seven people sit around a fire, three shots are being fired at them by people, by a person they can't identify, it's in the dark of night, and they receive some message. And the message is that they will be driven from the squatter camp which is ANC squatter camp according to you. MR RAMDAS Correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN And that it will be an IFP area? MR RAMDAS No, we were saying, I'm not saying that is IFP area. We wanted to make Pietermaritzburg the IFP stronghold. MR MALAN Okay. You also said that you're applying for this incident in the spirit of reconciliation so that families of these people should know what happened. MR RAMDAS Yes, towards anybody injured. MR MALAN Yes. How are they to identify the incident? MR RAMDAS There was no case opened. MR MALAN How would they, which family do you have in mind? MR RAMDAS If there was anybody injured or if they, if they, if like the shooting they know about, but they don't know who shot. So that is why I am revealing it. I was not charged in this case. MR MALAN Why would they know of the shooting? MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? MR MALAN Why would the family know of this shooting? MR RAMDAS If you get shot at and if you don't know who shot at you, so maybe ... MR MALAN What was the date of this incident? You didn't give us a date. MR RAMDAS No, no, no. There's no date, ...(intervention) MR MALAN You don't know the date? MR RAMDAS I don't know the date. MR MALAN So how will the family be able to identify this incident, if you don't even know the date? MR RAMDAS I am just, when I made my, when I say this here, I'm just saying this to bring this up, so I don't have any bad feelings or anything. I want reveal everything. MR MALAN Mr Ramdas, if you want to reveal anything, you should be able to get the message through to me at least and I'm speaking for myself, but I fail to understand how you can disclose information to victims or families of would-be victims if you can't give a specific address, you can't give a specific date, nobody is seen, the people shot at you can't identify? MR RAMDAS That is correct. MR MALAN Are you being serious about what you're telling us? That this is a spirit of reconciliation and you want the families to know what happened. MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN Okay. Continue. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just one little thing. You say you weren't charged. Was anybody charged or was it like the previous one? No one was charged. MR RAMDAS It was like the previous one, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And no one at all was charged. MR RAMDAS No one at all, Chairperson. MS LOONAT Mr Ramdas ...(intervention) MR MALAN Sorry, may I just ask this question? How are we to identify these incidents if there's no ... (intervention) MR RAMDAS It's only two incidents. MR MALAN Yes, these are two incidents. But you have no exterior information or evidence that could help us identify any of these incidents. MR RAMDAS No. Those people that were sitting round the fire, they were unknown to me. They were just sitting round there. MR MALAN And the same goes for the ... MR RAMDAS The first incident. MR MALAN The first incident. You don't know of any family of the person that was hit? MR RAMDAS No. Apparently the lady from the TRC ...(indistinct) she has been out there, I think. I'm not too sure. MR MALAN But couldn't trace anyone? MR RAMDAS No, apparently he died of some other injuries, apparently. Or other illness, something like that. She can give you more light on the matter, Chairperson. MR MALAN But you have no information which you can offer? MR RAMDAS No. No information. MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, I just want to give some information regarding Sipho Ndlovu. It was said that he was living with his grandmother, just the previous incident at Sweetwaters. And he was living with his grandmother and there's no other family relatives. I think he was the only child. And his grandmother also passed away. So just to inform you regarding the Sweetwaters incident. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Ndlovu himself? MS LOCKHAT Sipho Ndlovu is also deceased. 1996, 1997. CHAIRPERSON So, in other words, now you know, Mr Ramdas, that he wasn't killed by the shot fired by Indaba. MR RAMDAS Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If he died as a result of that shot, he died many years later as a result of the shot. He wasn't killed instantly. MS LOONAT Just to go back on Mr Malan's question. Mr Ramdas, what Mr Malan is perhaps, is trying to ask you is you shot at the squatter camp, the people sitting around at the squatter camp, to send a message through to them that if they attack your policemen, IFP members, you are going to make life difficult for them. MR RAMDAS Yes, that is correct. MS LOONAT What Mr Malan is trying to establish is how were they to know that that attack was from IFP members? Did you have any way of informing them that this was from your side? Is that correct, Mr Malan? MR RAMDAS No, no, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Why would they have thought that was a political attack as opposed to an ordinary criminal attack? MR RAMDAS It works like this. See, if you attack, if the ANC attacked IFP, the IFP will retaliate and attack back. JUDGE PILLAY Is that what you thought at the time? MR RAMDAS That is correct. MR MALAN Would, would the whole of the squatter camp, would they have known of the attack on the two IFP members? MR RAMDAS No. Yes, that is correct. MR MALAN The whole squatter camp knew that two IFP members were attacked? MR RAMDAS They, they should have known. Why we should have known, it's the same incident where all the people in the squatter camp, they have meetings, they get together and they say, listen, someone attacked me and this ...(intervention) MR MALAN Was this retaliation not on the same day? MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? MR MALAN The retaliation, yes. MR RAMDAS The same night. MR MALAN It was on the same night. MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN So when would they have had these meetings to share the information that they had attacked? MR RAMDAS I'm not saying they had the meetings. I've said this is how they operate. MR MALAN No, but my question is, how would they have known? You have said they have meetings. MR RAMDAS The people who were at the fire would have discussed it or would have spoke to the people there and say, listen ... MR MALAN Please prompt him. MS LOONAT Sorry, I think Mr Ramdas is trying to say that they would have established that having attacked Joe and Isaacs, and soon after, almost the same night, they were attacked, he assumes that they would come to the conclusion that this was in retaliation, Mr Malan. MR MALAN No, please, that was not his answer. I asked him the question and he did answer. He first said about meetings and he said he assumed and they talk and they would have discussed it around the fire. I asked him about the attack on the two IFP people. How would they have known of the attack? Not that the, I didn't ask him about the retaliation. I firstly asked, would the whole squatter camp have known about the attack on Joe and Isaacs? MR RAMDAS The whole squatter camp, I wouldn't have known. MR MALAN You said, no. MR RAMDAS Yes, that's right. MR MALAN So, the seven around the fire would not necessarily have known of that attack on Joe and Isaac. MR RAMDAS It could be possible that they did know. MR MALAN Yes, but they would not necessarily have known. MR RAMDAS No, not necessarily. MR MALAN So when they were shot at, they would not necessarily have linked it to the attack on Joe and Isaac. MR RAMDAS It could be so. MR MALAN Okay? Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes, continue. MR RAMDAS We're talking about the arson case. I was not involved in this matter, no one the rest of the squad except for Singh and Norman. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just repeat. MR RAMDAS This arson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RAMDAS I was not involved this matter, nor was the rest of the squad. It was just Constable Singh and Constable Norman that were involved in this. No instructions came from me. Nor was it politically motivated. What I later heard that Constable Singh ...(intervention) MR MALAN Mr Ramdas, you did not apply for that, so you don't have to tell us. MR RAMDAS No, but I see that, I see ... CHAIRPERSON Yes, but I mean if you're not involved, and you didn't give instructions and you weren't there, then all you can tell us is hearsay evidence. MR RAMDAS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Singh might speak to it later, but, I mean... MR RAMDAS Okay, I agree with you. We're talking about the killing of Solomon Dlamini. This incident happened on 92/11/19. He was murdered at Shongweni Bridge. Solomon Dlamini was an ANC activist and became known to us as a trained MK soldier. During the 1991 taxi violence in Retief Street, the dates are Friday 91/10/11 and Saturday 91/10/12. The deceased was present. I noticed the deceased was using a loud hailer and addressing the crowd in Retief Street. The trouble had started because the ANC owners did not want the kombis owned by the IFP members to load in the same rank as them. Nor did they want them to load the IFP passengers in the Kombis owned by the ANC members. When I arrived there, the roads were cordoned off and a large crowd had gathered. Whatever Dlamini spoke was translated from Zulu into English by one of the specials who was standing next to me. Dlamini stood on a box so that he could see over the other people. He spoke in a loud hailer and he chanted ANC slogans and threatened the IFP supporters with death if they were found in the area. Dlamini, he claimed to be a trained soldier of the resistance movement, and said that his two friends who were also trained MK, who were also trained soldiers like him, and that they would shoot IFP supporters if they came to the ranks. He said that the police are dogs and the IFP are cowards. The crowd became unruly and we teargassed them and the crowd dispersed. Dlamini left. I followed him and noted that he jumped into his kombi and he drove first to Krishnan Road and then later still to 533 Bombay Road. The reason why I followed him was just to make life hard for him, so if I see him or see his Kombi, I could always stop him, search him, just make life hard. The deceased declared the taxi rank a no-go area for IFP. There was another march at the Freedom Square outside the ...(indistinct) Buildings. This was on 26th of June 1992. The ANC MK soldiers unmasted our national flag and set fire to it and also urinated on it. They mocked the flag and also the policemen that served under the flag. These MK soldiers shouted and jeered at us. Prior to the march, Captain Botha, he received a fax stating that no one should arrest the MK ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Did the fact that the flag was ... (intervention) MR RAMDAS No, no, no. I beg your pardon? JUDGE PILLAY Did this fact that the flag was ridiculed, you're talking about the old South African flag? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY How did that affect you? MR RAMDAS I served under it, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY You respected it? MR RAMDAS I respected it. JUDGE PILLAY And it affected to you to such an extent that you saw that as an attack on the IFP and policemen, etc? MR RAMDAS That is correct. They were degrading us. Captain Botha received a fax stating that no one should be arrested as MK will open fire on the police. The string holding the flag was tied to the building and not on a flag pole, because in the fax they stated that they will unmast our flag and they will hoist an ANC flag up. They climbed up the flag pole, brought down the flag, it was burnt, they urinated on it. After this, I noticed that our Video Unit was also present. The Police Video Unit was also present. They were filming it. There were about plus minus eight soldiers, they were dressed in uniform, in their field dress, camouflaged uniform. One of the soldiers was the deceased, Mr Dlamini. He was present at this march. And I recognised him from the first march in Retief Street. I told Constable Singh at this march that Dlamini is a threat to us and a threat to the policemen, and that he must be killed. Other members of the squad, they were present, they agreed. Several weeks later, Dlamini, that is the deceased, had a confrontation with Constable Maistry and Constable Boodram, who is now deceased, in a Kombi, resulting in the Kombi being damaged and a policeman being charged. Constable Maistry was charged, Chairperson. Constable Maistry, who worked under me, reported to me that, about the charge and the summons he had received. I looked at the summons and saw the deceased's name. I asked Constable Maistry if it's the same person that I saw at the march, and Constable Maistry said no, he's a taxi driver and he is not a MK soldier. I put two and two together and realised that this was the same person on our list that I wanted them to kill. JUDGE PILLAY Which two and two did you put together? You were told it wasn't the same person? MR RAMDAS Constable Maistry was not on our hit squad, Chairperson. All he knows is that Solomon Dlamini charged him for assault, I mean for ...(indistinct) of property, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY You asked someone whether it was the same person, and that person responded that it wasn't the same person that was on your hit squad, hit list. MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Now you testify and say that you put two and two together. I'd like to know this mathematical equation worked to establish whether it was the same person. MR RAMDAS That was the name ... the name that I saw on the summons and the address that was given, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY The address? MR RAMDAS That address and the deceased's it was the same, one and the same. This is how Constable Maistry got involved in this matter. Constable Maistry, ...(intervention) MR MALAN Sorry, Mr Ramdas, if you had the address on both, why did you ask whether it was the same man? MR RAMDAS I just asked Constable Maistry out of curiosity, to see whether he knew anything about this person. MR MALAN No, but you had the, you knew it was the same person. MR RAMDAS I knew it was the same person, but Constable Maistry did not know, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY So what was the point? MR RAMDAS I wanted to see whether Constable Maistry knew this person or not. JUDGE PILLAY Why? MR RAMDAS As the MK soldier ... JUDGE PILLAY Why would you want to know that? MR RAMDAS The hit squad that we formed, Constable Maistry did not know. Although he worked under me, he did not know about the hit squad. JUDGE PILLAY So? MR RAMDAS So I wanted to see whether he knew about this hit squad. That is why I asked him. JUDGE PILLAY You don't make sense to me, you know. You gave, certainly I speak for myself, you gave me the impression that you had already chosen the identity of this person. And thereafter you drew inferences and made certain conclusions that it was the same person. MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY All I need to know, all I want to know is why did you go through that exercise? MR RAMDAS I just asked him out of curiosity, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY So, curiosity has got nothing, got nothing to do with your inferences, has it? MR RAMDAS Okay, just repeat it? JUDGE PILLAY Curiosity would not have anything to do with your conclusions, because you didn't need, you needn't have made conclusions. MR RAMDAS Because his name and address was there ... JUDGE PILLAY You knew who it was. MR RAMDAS Yes, I knew, Chairperson. That's correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN Did I hear you correctly saying too, that you asked him because you wanted to find out whether he had knowledge of the hit squad? MR RAMDAS Hit squad, that is correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN So how would he have disclosed his knowledge of the hit squad through, in answer to that question? MR RAMDAS How did I know? Can you please repeat? CHAIRPERSON How could that, by asking that question, how could that indicate to him whether, or indicate to you, whether he knew about the hit squad or not? MR RAMDAS So that he would talk about it and say, "listen here, Constable Williams told me something" or "Constable Mais - I mean, Constable Indaba spoke to me something". This is why I, although we all worked together, but the hit squad when it was formed, I informed them that they will not talk to anybody else about this. CHAIRPERSON So, Maistry wasn't part of the hit squad. MR RAMDAS Constable Maistry was not part of the hit squad. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RAMDAS Constable Maistry, just how Constable Maistry got involved with this thing. Constable Maistry, Williams and myself went to Singh's house. The reason why we went there is to get the two special constables or to get even the specials to go to this man's house just to talk to him. Constable Singh also came with me to 533 Bombay Road. When I reached there I explained to the two specials that they must ask him if he had laid a charge against the police and that he was wanted at the police station. The van was parked under the street light. A short while later the deceased returned with the two specials. At this time, Constable Maistry was sitting with Constable Singh and myself in the front seat of the van. Constable Williams was standing at the rear door. Constable Maistry saw Dlamini and said, "this is the man" and I said, "yes, this is the man from the march" and that he was a MK soldier. Constable Maistry told me that this is the man that had charged him. I told the two specials and Constable Williams to put the person into the van and they will also jump in with him. Constable Maistry ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Was it at that meeting that it was now decided that Dlamini was going to be assassinated? MR RAMDAS At the second march in ...(indistinct) Buildings where he'd broke the flag down, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Yes. MR RAMDAS That is correct. JUDGE PILLAY Now, according to your documentation, you say this meeting at 9, is it Jimkas Road? MR RAMDAS No, no, Timlas Road. JUDGE PILLAY Timlas Road. It was decided that Dlamini should be killed. MR RAMDAS At the march, I told Constable Singh that Dlamini must be killed. CHAIRPERSON See, what Judge Pillay is referring to, Mr Ramdas, is on page 35 of the bundle, at the top, it says, and I read - this is your statement: "A meeting was convened at 9 Timlas Road and there it was decided that Solomon Dlamini must be killed." MR RAMDAS I see that, Chairperson. I will explain ... CHAIRPERSON Now, this is what Judge Pillay is asking you. MR RAMDAS I will explain that. My first initial instructions were given at the march. I proceeded to 9 Timlas Road. I spoke to Constable Singh, he was not with me at that time, I spoke to him and I told him, "listen, we have to proceed with this hit here. Tonight we must do it." That is why. CHAIRPERSON Yes, continue. JUDGE PILLAY Now, who was at that meeting? MR RAMDAS It was just myself and Constable Singh. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, who? MR RAMDAS Constable Sing, myself. Indaba and Norman Nkono were there. I told them they must just go to this man's house and bring him out to the van. That is all. That was discussed at the meeting there. JUDGE PILLAY Williams? MR RAMDAS Williams was in the van at the time. He was with me, but he listened to the radio. I always kept him, one man to keep to listen to the radio. JUDGE PILLAY And did he volunteer to do the shooting? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY When would that have happened? MR RAMDAS When we were, when we were at, when we came back to the van. And I always give the instructions who's going to do what. Because Williams said that he will volunteer to do the shooting. But at a later stage, I will explain to you in detail what transpired. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you carry on, Mr Ramdas, the hit squad, it was yourself, ... MR RAMDAS Norman Nkono. CHAIRPERSON Singh. MR RAMDAS Singh. CHAIRPERSON Nkono, Indaba, Williams. MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Five. MR RAMDAS Five of us. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Okay. Yes, you can continue. You were saying that you then, I think the last mentioned is that you instructed that Mr Dlamini be put in the van. MR RAMDAS Into the van, that is correct, Chairperson. Now I'm just waiting for you, I see you writing there, so that is why I stopped, Chairperson. Okay, when he was put into the van, I told Constable Maistry that I was going to shoot him and Constable Maistry said ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Where was Maistry then? MR RAMDAS Maistry was sitting in the middle of the seat, I was driving, Constable Singh was sitting on the left of me. JUDGE PILLAY Now has, did Maistry graduate to the hit squad now? MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? JUDGE PILLAY Was Maistry part of the hit squad by then? MR RAMDAS No. He was not part of the hit squad. JUDGE PILLAY But then he would have known what was happening. MR RAMDAS He would have known what's happening. At that stage I told him I'm going to shoot ... JUDGE PILLAY Yes. So you would have disclosed to him now what ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS I didn't tell him anything about the hit squad. I just merely told him, "this man, I'm going to shoot him". And that's when Maistry said, "no, it's only a minor charge, don't shoot him, I will win this case." And I told Maistry, this is not what I'm going to shoot him for. The reason why I want to shoot, this man was a MK soldier and he is a threat to us. I will explain to you now, Chairperson. Constable Maistry begged me not to shoot him and I told Constable Maistry that this man must die to stop him from furthering his cause, namely the shooting of policemen, creating no-go areas, threatening and/or killing IFP supporters and members. This I witnessed myself, there at the taxi rank. MR MALAN Sorry, where, did you have information that Dlamini had shot policemen, IFP members ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS The ANC, the ANC, ...(indistinct) they were fighting for a cause for the killing of policemen where they spoke about a armed struggle, kill policemen, steal their firearms. MR MALAN Yes, but Dlamini you only saw on the march? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN And you saw his name on the summons. MR RAMDAS That is correct. And he was a MK soldier, Chairperson. MR MALAN Because he participated in the march. MR RAMDAS No, he was dressed in full camouflage uniform. MR MALAN No, it was a camouflage uniform, he had a uniform on which you identified him as an MK soldier. But you have no knowledge that he had ever shot at a policeman? MR RAMDAS No, no knowledge. MR MALAN But you told Maistry that he had shot policemen and IFP members, etc. MR RAMDAS I just said that. I told him that he must die because we must stop him from furthering his cause. Maybe it was shooting of policemen, creating of no-go areas, because that was what their objective is, that was what the MK soldiers did. MR MALAN But then everybody must be shot who was MK or ANC. Not only Dlamini. MR RAMDAS Not only Dlamini. MR MALAN But you saw a large number of people in uniform? MR RAMDAS But he was the one that was instigating most of the trouble there, Chairperson. MR MALAN How did you know that? MR RAMDAS It was at, at the first march, he was used a loud hailer and he was chanting all the slogans and what have you. Do you want me to say what he was chanting there, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON No, you have said he was chanting pro ... MR RAMDAS He said (in ZULU, not translated). Once in the van, I drove to Shongweni Bridge. I stopped the van and asked all of them to jump out. The deceased lay in the van and refused to come out. Constable Singh, Williams and myself jumped into the rear and tried to drag him out. The deceased, he resisted violently, and after some time, he was taken out. Whilst at the stage of this coming out, the deceased grabbed Constable Williams by his private parts. Constable Williams was not happy about this. He was in, he asked Constable Singh for the firearm. When he was outside, Constable Williams shot this man about plus minus 9 times, but I think about 5 shots caught the deceased. At this stage, the deceased was trying to duck under the van. He was holding onto the springs of the van. After the shooting, he was dragged out from under the van. I could see that he was injured and he was bleeding. I instructed them, I instructed the rest of them to throw him over the bridge. Constable Williams, Indaba, Norman and Maistry grabbed the deceased and threw him over the bridge. Whilst all this was happening ...(intervention) MR MALAN Sorry, at that stage he had been shot more or less nine times, you said. MR RAMDAS About nine times. CHAIRPERSON He said he was shot five times. MR MALAN Oh, five times. MR RAMDAS Five times. CHAIRPERSON Shot at about nine times of which about five hit him. MR RAMDAS Had struck him. MR MALAN And, but he was still alive and still struggling? MR RAMDAS Still alive and struggling, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON This is a very high bridge, is it not? MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON The bridge is high, is it? MR RAMDAS It's one of the highest bridges in Maritzburg. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think there was some mention here that it had been 1500 metres. MR RAMDAS If you look down there from the top, you can see the river a small streak there. Whilst all this was happening, the van lights were on and the blue light was on. I would like to apply for amnesty in this case, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just, before you move on, Mr Ramdas, you've got a hit squad, you've told us the hit squad with its particular aims, etc. Now you carry out a hit against an identified target, a target which you had had in mind for some time. Why carry out the hit in the presence of a non-member, such as Constable Maistry? I mean, you know ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS He was present there. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I know, but I mean ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS When I picked him up ... CHAIRPERSON You could have dropped him, you could have said, okay, we'll fetch him, we'll sort it out. MR RAMDAS The problem would have arrived later if when Maistry goes to court and he finds that, you know, that his complainant is not available and later on, maybe if his body is found, then they find it, they will come back to Maistry, and Maistry will come back eventually to me. CHAIRPERSON So you, do you, you killed him specifically with Maistry present to shut Maistry up as it were. MR RAMDAS To shut Maistry up, yes. And I gave him a part to play there, Chairperson, by throwing the body over, so that he knows that he was also involved in this attack and that he will keep quiet, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Continue. MS LOONAT Did Maistry not object to ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS To the deceased being shot? Yes. He objected, Chairperson. MS LOONAT But to being thrown over the bridge? MR RAMDAS Can you repeat the question? MS LOONAT You said Maistry was present and you gave him a part to play besides shooting at him, you instructed him to throw Mr Dlamini over the bridge. What was his reaction to that? MR RAMDAS He did not want to do that. But eventually he did. The other hit, the deceased was Mr Padayachee. INAUDIBLE INTERVENTION JUDGE PILLAY Just one question. I don't know how to refer to these tactics other than by tricks. This trick of getting Maistry involved in order to shut him up. Was that a tactic that you learned from these courses? MR RAMDAS It's from my past experience, my past, how can I say, being in the Police Force, you learn all those things, Chairperson. You pick it up from other policemen, when policemen talk, what have you. JUDGE PILLAY I see. CHAIRPERSON Now, were you charged in respect of the Dlamini killing? MR RAMDAS That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And were you convicted and sentenced? MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And who else was convicted and sentenced in respect of that particular killing? Dlamini? MR RAMDAS It was Constable Singh, Constable Nkono, and I think it was Constable Maistry, Chairperson. That is correct. I think it's Maistry. Indaba was not charged. CHAIRPERSON How about Williams? MR RAMDAS Williams? I'm not too sure, Chairperson. Yes, I think he was also, I think so. I'm not too sure. CHAIRPERSON Yes. You can continue. JUDGE PILLAY Was Maistry convicted? MR RAMDAS Yes, I think he was convicted. MS LOONAT Mr Chairperson, my client says that he is feeling particularly cold, and it's affecting his thinking. May he possibly get a jersey? May the matter stand down? CHAIRPERSON Thank you, we'll take a five minute adjournment and then reconvene. COURT ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Ramdas, when we adjourned you were about to start with the incident involving Mr Padayachee. PRAVEEN RAMDAS (s.u.o.): That is correct, Chairperson. Chairperson I want to apologise ... CHAIRPERSON That's all right. MR RAMDAS Thank you, Chairperson. MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, I just want to clarify the issue that Judge Pillay asked as to who was charged and sentenced for the previous incident. Can I just inform the Committee? Devon Williams received 12 years' imprisonment, Mr Singh life imprisonment, Mr Ramdas life imprisonment, Mr Mokoena 5 years of which 3 years suspended, Mr Maistry 5 years of which 3 years suspended. Thank you, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. And that was in respect of that incident, plus others. MS LOCKHAT Just the Dlamini. CHAIRPERSON Oh, just the Dlamini one. MS LOCKHAT Just for that incident. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Thank you, Mr Ramdas, you may proceed. MR RAMDAS Thank you, Chairperson. The fourth incident, it happened 92/11/30 and the deceased was Mr Padayachee. CHAIRPERSON When you say 11/30, you mean the 30th of November? MR RAMDAS Singh on his own accord decided ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY MR RAMDAS CHAIRPERSON For the work done or the work to be done? MR RAMDAS For work done. CHAIRPERSON Now which work would that be then? MR RAMDAS No that is what Constable Indaba told Singh. JUDGE PILLAY So in your statement you say R1 000 for work done, is that a mistake? MR RAMDAS When I went to Singh's house, he had a broad smile on his face and he said that the boys are happy. I asked him why and he told me that Indaba had given him, what Indaba had told him, and he said what he had done with the money. I was so furious when I heard this and I shouted at Singh and I said, "are you fucking mad?" He asked me why and I said to Singh, that I asked Skiza Zuma for the money so that I could buy ammunition, guns and other items to make our squad perform at its best. He just looked at me and said he was very sorry. He ran down the stairs to where the specials lived and brought the money back. I took the money from him, after explaining to him what I need the money for. I wanted more silencers, telescopes, two-two pistols, specialised ammunition, that is THP(?)(?) rounds, etc. I told him the next time that he must first consult with before doing anything. I could see that he was sorry because he apologised about five or six times, once I was through with him. On the list of names was given to Indaba via Zuma I had the final say on the matter. Padayachee was an ANC, he was some sort of financial adviser to the ANC, members of the Pietermaritzburg area and also some sort of financial sponsor to the party, in the same way the second person on the hit list was. The deceased's name, his name was Banks, because of his knowledge and expertise in the field. The second person on the list was Mr Khan of Sounds Ideal. He was the owner of Sounds Ideal, that is a PA system where, when you have marches, he provides the sound for them, for addressing the public. He was a staunch supporter of the ANC. His description was given to me by Indaba and also his address. He lived in Imram Road. On three occasions I went to his house, but he was not present, therefore he could not be killed. JUDGE PILLAY Who's this now? MR RAMDAS That's Mr Khan from Sounds Ideal. The third person to be shot was a black female called Zodwa. She was living at the Harewood Location, that's the IFP stronghold and Zuma was her chief. Apparently, she left the Harewood Location and stayed in Culverwell Road with Mr Padayachee. She apparently passed on all the IFP vital information to Padayachee who was ANC. According to Indaba, she also had a sexual relationship with Mr Padayachee. Seeing that both Padayachee and Zodwa lived in the same house, I decided that both of them should be killed at the same time. I gave instructions to Norman and Indaba to kill Padayachee, to enter the house and to kill Zodwa who will also be there. The firearm, a 7.65, was handed to Norman Nkono. Constable Maistry who was present at the time, that is at Singh's house, he apparently wanted a lift home to his house. He was under the influence of alcohol. Seeing that we were leaving for this hit, I asked him to jump in, which he did. Maistry did not know what was happening because the state he was in. We proceeded to Culverwell Road. There Constable Nkono and Indaba left the car after the house was shown to them. Constable Maistry was passed out in the vehicle. Constable Singh and myself stood down the road, outside the house. We stood in such a way that we could see the side of the house and all the way round at the same time, giving Constable Nkono and Indaba cover. From where I was I could see the front door of the deceased's house. A while later, I saw the veranda light come on and the door open ajar. I heard the two shots go off and I saw Constable Nkono and Indaba run away from the house. I wondered why they ran away because they were supposed to go inside after the shooting into the house. We proceeded, I mean, we proceeded to the car and at the car, Constable Norman Nkono told me that he could not enter the house, because the safety chain was on. He also stated to me that he shot the deceased through the semi-closed door. It was later established that the black female Zodwa lived at the rear of the house and not with Mr Padayachee. She left after the shooting and disappeared and could not be found. Constable Indaba denied knowing Zodwa but later admitted that it was his girlfriend. He was afraid that the association with Zodwa would link him directly to the killing of Padayachee. I would like to apply for amnesty in this case, the killing of Padayachee and for the two counts of conspiracy to murder, that is for Mr Khan and the black woman Zodwa. After the murder, the equipment that I needed for the firearms, I mean, the equipment that I needed, that is the firearms, telescopes, silencers, the THP(?)(?) rounds, etc. were bought. I was charged for this case, Chairperson, I was sentenced. Constable Nkono, I think the rest of the men, they were sentenced as well. That I think, I'll have to find out from ... CHAIRPERSON MR RAMDAS The telescopes and the silencers were bought from the gun shop, that they sell over the counter. The firearms, we bought it through a contact. The threading of the barrel ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY What do you mean, a contact? MR RAMDAS We made enquiries to find out who's selling illegal firearms, we send our informers out there, to buy the firearms for us, they come and give it back to us. The threading of the barrel was paid for. We had to pay high prices for this thing, because it was not done by anybody. CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, with this killing of Mr Padayachee, why was Constable Maistry taken along? MR RAMDAS He was ... CHAIRPERSON Seeing that he was not a member of the hit squad? MR RAMDAS He was present there at Singh's house. He wanted a lift home. We were just about to leave Singh's house for this attack when Maistry pitched up there. He did not know anything. CHAIRPERSON But is that good reason to take a person on a hit just because he happens to pitch up wanting a lift? MR RAMDAS If I left him there, if I left him there, he would have wondered why we did not take him with where we were going to, maybe. JUDGE PILLAY Wasn't he then by that time part of the hit squad? MR RAMDAS No he was not part of the hit ... (intervention) JUDGE PILLAY He must have known enough of what your activities were by then? MR RAMDAS He only knew about the killing of Dlamini, that was all, Chairperson. He did not know anything else. JUDGE PILLAY Well, exactly. It was bad enough to know that, isn't it? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. He only knew about that. JUDGE PILLAY Was he then not brought into the system of hit, of that hit squad? MR RAMDAS No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So you're saying that he was taken along because he happened to arrive and you felt bad at saying, well sorry, we're going off somewhere. So instead of saying that you took him along and went off to kill somebody? MR RAMDAS He was in the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON And what happens if ... MR RAMDAS The vehicle was parked far away from the house. Very far from the house, Chairperson. So he'd not see anything. Or neither could he hear anything. He was in the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON So then he sat in the vehicle while these people went off, Indaba and the others, to go and execute Mr Padayachee. You sit in the vehicle and wait and wait. MR RAMDAS No, he was passed out in the vehicle, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON He was passed out? MR RAMDAS He was passed out, he was drunk. CHAIRPERSON He was drunk? MR RAMDAS Yes. CHAIRPERSON What, in a stupor? So he didn't know what was going on? MR RAMDAS He didn't know what was going on, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Well, if he was that drunk, why couldn't you have refused him a lift? MR RAMDAS Why we couldn't have refused him a lift? He was a policeman. JUDGE PILLAY He wasn't in a position to think, I wouldn't have thought. So what are you going to be worried about what he thinks of you if you refuse him a lift? MR RAMDAS No, he was a policeman, a friend of mine, a colleague of mine. JUDGE PILLAY So? MR RAMDAS So I just decided no, I'll help him. Give him a lift. JUDGE PILLAY Well, he was so close a colleague that you didn't want to tell him what you're up to. MR RAMDAS Yes. I didn't want to tell him. JUDGE PILLAY So, if there wasn't that great connection between the two of you, so why take him with? MR RAMDAS Because he wanted a lift. JUDGE PILLAY All the more reason you've got a drunken man in a drunken stupor who is likely to talk what he sees. Why take that risk? MR RAMDAS Can you just ... JUDGE PILLAY The fact that he was drunk ... MR RAMDAS The fact that he was drunk, yes ... JUDGE PILLAY Was all the more reason why you should not have taken him with. Isn't it? MR RAMDAS Yes, he was a colleague of mine, he was a friend of mine. JUDGE PILLAY No, I understand that. But despite that, you didn't have any faith in telling what you were up to. MR RAMDAS No, I did not tell him. JUDGE PILLAY Yes. Because you didn't trust him, isn't it? You wanted to keep this secret from him. MR RAMDAS Yes, it was a secret. JUDGE PILLAY Yes. Now, if that is so, then here he is, drunk. Wasn't it more of a risk to take him with? On such a hit? MR RAMDAS Yes, but he was not in a state, I mean, not in his right sense of mind, so he wouldn't have known what was happening. JUDGE PILLAY Yes. But wouldn't he then have spoken about what he had seen? MR RAMDAS Can you please repeat? JUDGE PILLAY Wouldn't he have spoken to other people about what he had seen? MR RAMDAS He was too drunk. He wouldn't have known. When we left Singh's house, we went to Culverwell Road, by the time we reached Culverwell Road, he was passed out in the vehicle. So you could see the man. JUDGE PILLAY But when you embarked on the trip, you weren't to know he was going to pass out. MR RAMDAS No, I did not know. JUDGE PILLAY Exactly. MR RAMDAS But he was heavily drunk. JUDGE PILLAY And that was the purpose of the question. Why take him with? MR RAMDAS If I left him there, maybe he would have been a danger to himself, maybe he would have been robbed or somebody ...(indistinct). Because he was friend, I didn't want to refuse him. CHAIRPERSON Yes, continue. MR RAMDAS I'm going on to the next one. That was Sipho Zulu, Chairperson. MR MALAN MR RAMDAS I sent two applications. This is the third one that I ...(indistinct). The first one was in detail. MR MALAN I'm talking about the full statement that you made, that's, I'm referring specifically to page 35, 36, where you deal with this incident. MR RAMDAS Yes, this is a shortened version. This is a shortened version, because ...(intervention) MR MALAN But isn't it crucial, the question of payment? MR RAMDAS Yes, it was crucial. It was, I'm not too sure which day it was. When we got a message through the Department, through the Prison Department, stating that our lawyer be there at the next day to hand in the application for the closing date. So we just wrote out short abbreviated ...(intervention) MR MALAN No, Mr Ramdas, please. Will you have a look at page 35 of the bundle. The last paragraph starts with "Our fourth hit" and you say, that you got a message from Skiza Zuma and Singh approached you on that day ... MR RAMDAS That is right. MR MALAN MR RAMDAS That's what I'm trying to explain to you. The application I wrote here, was in a hurry. They were, this was the third application that I sent in, Chairperson. The other two were lost. I think Constable Singh's got proof of it, Chairperson. If you could look at it. My first application ...(indistinct), Chairperson. These are just things that I wrote in and I sent in ...(indistinct). Have you got this in there, sir. Can I show it to you? CHAIRPERSON Is this Mr Singh's statement? Yes, we have that. MR MALAN We have Mr Singh's statement. MR RAMDAS No, not the statement. We did, we did, the TRC has lost our statements, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Oh, we don't ... MR MALAN How did you find out that we did not get your earlier applications? MR RAMDAS Because the closing date, we did not get any, they said the closing date, we did not get any response, nothing. ...(indistinct) each one when you send your applications in, they give you a reply or something back, saying we've received your application, we're discussing the matter or whatever. We contacted the lawyer to find out what is going on and we found, the second one it was lost. We eventually sent the third one in. MR MALAN You can hand that in to us some later stage. We don't have to have a look at that, but I'd like to see the application. MR RAMDAS Thank you. MR MALAN But you, even on the abbreviation, I mean, you deal with addresses, you deal with such a lot of detail, but the crucial issue of the payment and your being upset about payment, killing for hire, ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS As you can see, Chairperson ... MR MALAN You don't deal with. MR RAMDAS That was just a shortened version of everything, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON MR RAMDAS Yes, I see that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. In any event, I'm just pointing out that's what he's written. MR MALAN Can you, can you just also for my information tell me, what was the cost of these telescopes? How many telescopes did you buy? MR RAMDAS There were two telescopes, two silencers, a two-two pistol, specialised ammunition, the threading of the barrel, I wrote it down here somewhere. MR MALAN What did it cost you? MR RAMDAS It came to R5 235, something like that. MR MALAN What was the price of the telescope? MR RAMDAS Chairperson, I have a price, or I had it somewhere. MR MALAN You have receipts for those items? MR RAMDAS No, I didn't bring it along, Chairperson. At that time, I didn't know it was necessary to keep all these things, Chairperson. But I estimated the price ...(intervention) MR MALAN Did you not bring it along or don't you have it? MR RAMDAS No, I don't have, Chairperson. MR MALAN You have no receipts for anything that you ... MR RAMDAS No, nothing, Chairperson. MR MALAN Okay. MS LOONAT Mr Malan is asking were you issued with receipts at all, Mr Ramdas? MR RAMDAS For the illegal things, no. For the things that I bought from the shop, yes. But those things were thrown away. Can I proceed, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RAMDAS Okay, the fifth hit was an ANC activist, namely Sipho Zulu. On, this incident happened on 3/12/92. On 5/5/92 there was a huge ANC rally at Wardley Stadium, Edendale, Pietermaritzburg. It was a huge crowd that was addressed by Harry Gwala and other top ANC leaders. I was assisting in escorting the busses from the rally through the town and then to Northdale. At Northdale, the busses split up, because of the various places they were going to, example, Swapo Camp, Jesmondene, Natal Crushers Squatter Camp, etc. On the police radio, I heard Constable Singh shouting for help. He said that him and his specials were being robbed of their firearms. Once I heard this, I established where he was and I rushed to his aid. I was the first to be on the scene. I spoke to Constable Singh and found that he had been roughed up and also shaken up. I explained, he explained to me vaguely how Sipho Zulu, Petrus Zulu, Muzi Mtungwa and others tried to rob him of his firearm. He stated to me that he had fired a number of rounds and that he had injured Sipho Zulu and Muzi. And that Petrus Zulu died on the scene. A number of ANC supporters began to chant, and after a while a huge crowd had gathered. They were armed with sticks, knives, stones, everything you can think of. Reinforcements arrived and we kept the huge crowd at bay. The officers attending asked me to go the Northdale Hospital as the injured were all there. And they stated that I must make the necessary arrangements for them to be guarded. The reason being is that they will be charged and that they will be suspects so they have to be guarded by the police. I left the scene and proceeded to Northdale Hospital. On my arrival at Casualty, I saw the deceased and Muzi. Muzi was in a lot of pain and he could not talk. The deceased, he spoke in English, but not fluent. He stated to me, "hey, you dog, tell your other dog friend that he shot my brother and that he had shot at my comrades and that we are coming to get him. If we can't get him, any other dog wearing that uniform." He stated to me also that Harry Gwala said in the rally that they must continue the armed struggle and that they must take the arms from the police. I then thought of what Captain O'Connell had told me on SWAT Course. That they will kill policemen and they will steal our firearms from us. I also thought about what the members of the Security Branch said about Peter Mokaba and the armed struggle. I could see all what I had, what I had been told is now coming true. A few days later, or some time later, our ...(indistinct) Police Station was robbed of all the firearms. That was about 15, plus minus 15 firearms. This was the sub-station opposite the Swapo squatter camp, and this place is about 50 metres from where Singh was robbed of his firearm. I could see that the ANC was not scared to rob our policemen of their firearms. And that the speech at the rally influenced them a lot. I went back to the station and arranged for guards for the deceased and Muzi. There I met Constable Singh at the station and I told him, "Singh, be careful of your life as the deceased threatened to kill you or any other cop in uniform". I also told Singh it's a do or die situation. It's either you or the deceased. And also reminded him of the SWAT Course. I gave the instructions to Singh to kill Sipho Zulu and Muzi the same day, that's on 5/5/92. On 92/12/03, Constable Singh, Indaba, Nkono came from work. Just before entering the residence they found the deceased at their home. Outside their home. He was taken away and he was questioned. He was searched and they found a dagger on him. He stated that he came to pay his revenge. Constable Singh stated to me that he'd picked up Constable Williams and they took the deceased to a cane field at ...(indistinct). There Constable Williams dragged him out the car and throttled him and then Constable Singh came from behind and shot the deceased in the back of the head. When the deceased fell to the ground, he was shot a few more times to make sure that he was dead. The deceased was left there and they all came to my house. At my house, I spoke to Constable Singh and he told me of the shooting, that was of Sipho Zulu. I instructed him to bury the body. Constable Ayer also helped dig the grave and buried the body. Constable Ayer was a policemen. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, what was that name again? MR RAMDAS Ayer, you spell it, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Ayer. JUDGE PILLAY But was he a member of your hit squad? MR RAMDAS No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was he stationed at Mountain Rise? MR RAMDAS At Mountain Rise, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What as, just an ordinary uniformed policeman? MR RAMDAS Uniformed policeman. CHAIRPERSON So, so how did he get involved in this lot? MR RAMDAS Constable Singh will be able to answer you, Chairperson, because I was not there the time, when he picked up Ayer. I was at my house. JUDGE PILLAY But as leader of this private hit squad now, your attention was drawn to the fact that there's a newcomer, who knew, at least in this instance, what had occurred. MR RAMDAS When Constable Singh left my house, returned to bury the body, Ayer was not present there, Chairperson. They left to bury the body, they must have met Ayer after that, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY No, afterwards when the report was made to you, you must have become aware of the fact ... MR RAMDAS I did, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY There's a newcomer now who possibly knows what is happening. How did you deal with that? MR RAMDAS I asked Constable Singh what was the problem there, how did Ayer get involved. Because Singh told me that Ayer helped bury the body. So I mentioned, why did Ayer help? He said that Constable Ayer apparently was at his house, waiting for Constable Singh, and that Singh had asked him to come, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Don't you find it strange? Somebody is killed, now the body needs to be buried, and because somebody happens to be at the house, you bring in somebody who is not involved, doesn't know anything about the hit squad, to come and bury a body? I mean, when you're a policeman and you find a body, you normally get the body to a mortuary? You don't bury bodies in the veld. In the cane fields. It sounds ... MR RAMDAS Chairperson, this body was buried to conceal it, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes. What was your reaction when you heard that an outsider had been involved in burying bodies? People who had been executed by your hit squad? MR RAMDAS I was cross with Constable Singh first. But later he told me that Constable Ayer wanted to join him, at, when the van was parked at Singh's house. This is what he told me. When the van was parked at Singh's house, Singh went to fetch the hoe and the implements to go and bury the body. That's when Ayer came and he asked, he jumped into the van. He said he's coming to drive around the van, but he did not know that this person has been shot. Apparently, he said no, he wants to jump in. And later when he found out, he saw the body there. Then he said, "oh, you shot this person". In any case, Chairperson, Singh will ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Yes, he can explain. MR RAMDAS He can explain. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I was just going, this, was there any repercussion arising out of the death of Petrus Zulu? Any case? MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. I think there was an inquest held, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And any civil matter? MR RAMDAS That I don't know, Chairperson. We'll have to find out from Constable Singh, Chairperson. MR MALAN When you were asked by Judge Pillay about the newcomer, I wrote down here that you say that Singh's, you asked Singh and he said that he had asked Ayer to come along. MR RAMDAS To come along, Chairperson. MR MALAN Is that correct? MR RAMDAS What do you mean, come along? He'll have to explain that, Chairperson. MR MALAN No, no. I'm asking you about the statement that you made. MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. Please repeat it. MR MALAN Is it correct, I wrote down here, you say Singh had asked him to come along. MR RAMDAS That must have been after Singh ...(intervention) MR MALAN No, to bury, to bury the body. MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. MR MALAN That's how you understood it? MR RAMDAS That's how I understood it, Chairperson. MR MALAN Then on the further questioning, you said that Ayers wanted to go along and he jumped in the van. Not that Singh asked him. MR RAMDAS I must have got your ...(indistinct) wrong, Chairperson. When Constable Singh, this what he got happened, what I know. What they have told me, that when Singh went to his house, after he left my house, went to his house to fetch the implements to dig a grave, dig the hole, or grave, there he met Ayer at Singh's house. Ayer was there. MR MALAN When did he meet? Was he there already? MR RAMDAS He was already there. MR MALAN I thought you said he arrived there after ... MR RAMDAS No, he was already there. How he came there, I don't know. MR MALAN Okay, he was already there. MR RAMDAS He was already there. MR MALAN Yes? MR RAMDAS Now he usually works with Singh, if Singh's working patrol duties and all, he usually comes in, joins in. He was a ...(indistinct) 20 of them, specials that worked under Constable Singh. But the hit squad was different. Some of the members of the hit squad, the specials, were part of this 15 people who were taken out from there. Five people were taken out from there, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was Muzi ever found? MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON Muzi. Did anything ever happen regarding Muzi? MR RAMDAS No. The instructions were given to kill Muzi as well, but there was nothing done about him, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Why not? MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? JUDGE PILLAY Why not? MR RAMDAS Muzi, we could not find him, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Ever? MR RAMDAS No, I don't know if he is still around, or what, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Why didn't you attempt to look for him after that? MR RAMDAS We looked for him, Chairperson, did look for him, but he couldn't be found, Chairperson. This count, we, I don't know who was charged and what sentence they got. JUDGE PILLAY And you? MR RAMDAS I got life imprisonment, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY For this. MR RAMDAS Life. Yes, I think it was life, Chairperson. Can I proceed, Chairperson.? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR RAMDAS The last one, I was ...(indistinct) on a retired police captain at Umkomaas. He was known to me for many years and at one stage in the late 80s I even worked under him in the CID Division. His name is Mr Dorega. Several times he mentioned to me and other policemen at Mountain Rise that he did not like the white oppressive government and further made mention that he supported and sympathised with the cause of the ANC, as he himself was a non-white. At the time, he told me that he was ANC it didn't bother me or trouble me in any way, as I myself was not actively involved in politics at this stage. JUDGE PILLAY What did think you killing people was? MR RAMDAS Can you please repeat? JUDGE PILLAY What did you think killing people was then? If you weren't involved in politics? MR RAMDAS No, I'm talking about the late, in the 80s, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY You talking about this last sixth ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY And did that take place in the 1980s? MR RAMDAS No, no, I'm talking about when I met him and everything, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Oh, sorry, I misunderstood you. Carry on. MR RAMDAS When I was at the same station, that is Mountain Rise Uniformed Branch, we used to raid the ANC squatter camps and we used to find home-made firearms, etc. The suspect, who was the ANC, with the expert, was taken to the police station and handed over to the deceased, that is the Captain Dorega who was the Branch Commander of the CID at the time. He told us specifically not to register the dockets as he will decide whether to charge the suspect or not. Captain Michael who worked under Dorega at that time also disagreed with him and the system that he was using. On a number of occasions, I arrested ANC youths with firearms, but nothing was done about it. I then realised that the deceased was an ANC and that he was siding with the ANC. MR MALAN I thought that you said he'd told you earlier that he was ANC? MR RAMDAS But I did not worry about it, Chairperson. At that stage ... MR MALAN No, but you're now saying you now realised he was ANC. MR RAMDAS This is now in the 90s, Chairperson. MR MALAN Yes, but you knew already in the late 80s. He told you so himself. MR RAMDAS Yes, but it was a long time ago, I did not really worry about it, Chairperson. MR MALAN I can't understand how a person tells you, say in 1988 or whatever, that he's a member of the ANC and in 1990 you realise that he is a member of the ANC. MR RAMDAS Some people talk ...(intervention) MR MALAN Because of his actions? MR RAMDAS Some people talk but they don't really mean it. Some people just say yes, I belong to certain organisations where you just take it as such. CHAIRPERSON Anyway, in the 90s you became convinced that he was a ANC supporter. MR RAMDAS ...(indistinct) after Zuma sent us a list of names, I noticed the name of Padayachee and went to have a look at his house as it was the same road as mine. That was the previous, Padayachee I'm talking about was the previous deceased, that I spoke about, Chairperson. The list came to me on the 25th of November 1992. And the same day I did my location and made my enquiries and I was getting ready to give the order. The next day, while I was doing inspection at the sub-station in Copesville, I noticed in the distance the deceased who was in the company of three blacks. I did not worry, as I knew that Dorega was with the ANC and that he frequently visit the camp. I noted that two of the three blacks jumped into the deceased's private car. JUDGE PILLAY You're talking of Dobe? MR RAMDAS Dorega, Chairperson. And the car drove ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think just refer to him as Dorega as there's been quite a number of deceased, yes. MR RAMDAS After an hour or so, deceased left with the two, Dorega left with the two blacks. JUDGE PILLAY I just want to get a perspective here. Was Padayachee already dead, or not? When Dorega went in there? MR RAMDAS I then remembered what was told to me on SWAT Course that some policemen are passing information to the ANC and these policemen are dangerous and playing double standards, who were playing double standards, Chairperson. Dorega was associating with ANC people from Swapo camp and these ANC people had robbed us, robbed our Copesville Police Station of all the firearms. They also made threats to Constable Singh and other policemen and these ANC people also attacked Constable Singh and his unit. I could see that Dorega was well known in the ANC Swapo camp and also well known to Mr Padayachee, who was some sort of big boy in the ANC. Normally if the police go into the ANC squatter camp they use casspirs, bullet-proof vehicles, bullet-proof vests and they also have back-up units. Because if they don't, they will get shot at or they may be robbed of their firearms or their vehicles could be damaged. But Dorega was unmistakably one of them as this ANC camp is a no-go area for the police. I was convinced that Dorega was serious about his political activities in the ANC. And more so now that he was retired and he had more time on his hands. Remembering the information that Captain O'Connell told me on SWAT Course, I considered him a threat to our policemen and a threat to the nation as a whole, as the Swapo people were heavy into taking guns from the police for the armed struggle. And more so now, it seems like they were getting first-hand information from an ex-policeman about the police and the force itself. I instructed that Dorega be killed as to stop him from furthering the ANC cause. MS LOONAT Mr Ramdas, was Dorega still a member of the force at this time? MR RAMDAS No, he was retired, Chairperson. At which stage are you talking about? MS LOONAT When he visited, when you noticed he visited the ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS No, he was retired. MS LOONAT He was already, he was retired. MR RAMDAS Yes, he was retired. MS LOONAT At the time he visited Padayachee with the two blacks. MR RAMDAS That was when he was retired at the time. MS LOONAT So this was all after he retired. MR RAMDAS When he was retired. MR MALAN And what would that first-hand information be? That he would ... MR RAMDAS That I don't know, Chairperson. He could have been giving vital information how the police was operating ...(intervention) MR MALAN No. No, Mr Ramdas. I'm asking you on your statement. You said you saw him in the camp. MR RAMDAS That is correct. MR MALAN And you remembered that they told you that police were informing to the ANC, that you had informers amongst the police, and you said Dorega was unmistakably one of the people there. MR RAMDAS That's right. MR MALAN And he was certainly committed, because, more so because he was now retired and you said as an ex-policeman he was imparting first-hand information to the ANC. MR RAMDAS Yes. All information that he had on the police while he was a policeman he could have parted to them, Chairperson. That's what I was trying to get at, Chairperson. MR MALAN What information would that be that could be threaten, be threatening? MR RAMDAS That how the police works, what firearms maybe they used, or anything, any information vital to what the police had, he could have passed it on, Chairperson. MR MALAN You refer to that as the first-hand information. MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. MR MALAN So it's not about plans or strategy, it's about what firearms they used at the time he was still ... MR RAMDAS It could be anything, Chairperson. MR MALAN In the service. MR RAMDAS Yes, in the service. That's right. MR MALAN So that's, for how long then was he then already retired? MR RAMDAS I think one year. One year or a year and a half or so. MR MALAN So his first-hand information would have been at least a year old? MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. MR MALAN It couldn't have been very important information, could it? MR RAMDAS I don't know, Chairperson, if it was very important. I don't know. On the 27th of November 1992 I gave the instructions to kill Dorega. Constable Singh ...(intervention) MR MALAN Sorry, give that date again? MR RAMDAS 27 November 1992. Constable Singh fired two rounds with a shotgun at his home. We could not lay him out the house, but Singh saw the silhouette of Dorega at the window, he fired two rounds with the shotgun. That is from the station. But the bullets hit the house, Chairperson. Dorega was not killed at that time, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Was this down at Umkomaas? MR RAMDAS At Umkomaas, Chairperson. Then on 93/04/22, we again went out to Umkomaas to kill Dorega, because the first attempt was a failure. Constable Singh, Nkono, Constable Ayer, Williams and Nelish Singh and myself were involved in this killing. JUDGE PILLAY Was Ayer now part of your squad? MR RAMDAS I see, yes, Chairperson. He just came in there. We brought him with, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Was he part of the hit squad? MR RAMDAS No, he wasn't part of the hit squad. CHAIRPERSON So who went? It was yourself ... MR RAMDAS Just hang on, Chairperson. It was ... CHAIRPERSON Singh. MR RAMDAS Singh, Nkono, Ayer, Constable Williams and Nelish Singh. CHAIRPERSON Sorry? MR RAMDAS Nelish Singh. Nel ... CHAIRPERSON Who's Nelish Singh? MR RAMDAS He's one of the people that were involved with us, Chairperson. Nelish Singh. CHAIRPERSON Oh, is that Constable Singh? MR RAMDAS No, not this Singh, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Oh, another Singh. Sorry, so he also wasn't a member of the squad? MR RAMDAS No, he was not a member of the squad. CHAIRPERSON So why were Ayer and Nelish ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS I will explain to just now, Chairperson. I will explain to you just now, Chairperson. The police car, a Toyota Corolla, was taken from the station. The number plates were altered. We were all dressed in full uniform. We proceeded to Durban to Nelish Singh's house. The reason we went there is to use his souped-up BMW as the get-away car. From there, I drove the police car with Singh as my passenger. In the BMW, Nelish was driving, Williams was his front seat passenger, Ayer, Nkono, Ayer and Nkono was the rear, sit at the rear of the BMW. When we reached Umkomaas off-ramp ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Where was Williams? MR RAMDAS Williams was seated in the BMW on the passenger seat, Chairperson. When we reached the Umkomaas off-ramp we stopped and I gave them last-minute instructions. I changed the barrel of the firearm, we used Constable Williams, the butt, it was just the barrel we changed, Chairperson. We wanted to use the silencer, Chairperson, because we can't, because it had groovings inserted, Chairperson. Constable William's firearm was used by Constable Nkono. That's the only thing I changed in the firearm, Chairperson, just the barrel. On this count, Chairperson, we were charged, we were convicted and I was given life term imprisonment, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just to get back to this point. Why was Ayer taken along? Not only taken along but made one of the central actors of the incident when he wasn't even a member of the hit squad? MR RAMDAS When Constable Singh, when Ayer was already present there at Singh's house when Singh arrived there to pick up the implements, after Ayer had buried the body and what have you, of the last count, he asked to join us. He said that he was also was helping, willing to help us to fight the cause. But we didn't, I wasn't very happy about it. But in any event he did associate himself with us, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Why were you not happy about it? MR RAMDAS Because Constable Singh is now bringing people that is, I didn't even see, I didn't even check on him, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY So how did you allow him to become a member eventually? Did you check him out? MR RAMDAS He had seen the burying of the body ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY I know that. You were not happy. MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY You said because you did not have him checked out, or you did not check him out. MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY I assume by that you mean whether he was trustworthy ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS I could not trust him. That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Did you eventually do that? MR RAMDAS Eventually. JUDGE PILLAY Because he did become a member of the ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS Eventually, he was the last one to join in, Chairperson. Eventually. JUDGE PILLAY After your approval? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY And Nelish Singh? MR RAMDAS Nelish, we wanted to use his car, Chairperson. He had a fast car. JUDGE PILLAY So? MR RAMDAS And we wanted to use his car as a get-away car, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY So? MR RAMDAS We had no other car that was a fast car, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So why couldn't you borrow his car? MR RAMDAS Why couldn't we borrow his car? He didn't want to lend us his car, Chairperson. He wanted to drive. JUDGE PILLAY Did you try that? MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? JUDGE PILLAY Did you try that? Ask him to borrow the car? MR RAMDAS When we went to his house, we asked him for his car. He said no. We told him, I told him that we wanted to do something with his car. He said he asked us what it was about. I explained to him. Then he said no, he wants to come, he wants to drive, some, some ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY So you explained to him without knowing he's going to react? MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? JUDGE PILLAY You explained to him what you needed the car for without knowing how he's going to react? MR RAMDAS He was Constable Singh's cousin, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Well, that's beside the point. MR RAMDAS Constable Singh trusted him. JUDGE PILLAY But you didn't trust him. MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? JUDGE PILLAY Did you trust him? MR RAMDAS I took his, Constable Singh's word for it, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY But in the case of Ayer you did not? MR RAMDAS No, because he was there in Maritzburg so I did some ...(indistinct), Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON How many cars did you go to Umkomaas with? MR RAMDAS Two cars, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What was the second car, the police car that you changed the number, what was that? MR RAMDAS It was a Toyota Corolla, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Where was that parked then, at the time of the hit? MR RAMDAS It was outside there, on the street, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And the BMW also there? MR RAMDAS Was also outside the street. CHAIRPERSON So now that would mean that you've got one very quick get-away car and one ordinary get-away car. Why was it so special to have a souped-up BMW when your other get-away car was a Toyota Corolla? MR RAMDAS I'll explain that. CHAIRPERSON Why not have two Toyota Corollas? MR RAMDAS The BMW was to, I mean, the firearms they were going to put into the BMW to be driven away. The police car would be in the area as if they were looking for the suspects, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I understand. Yes, continue. MR RAMDAS That was all, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I see that it's just after one o'clock. I think this would be an opportune time to take the lunch adjournment. We'll take the lunch adjournment until quarter to two. So we'll adjourn until quarter to two for lunch. COURT ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Ramdas, I just remind you that you're still under your former oath. PRAVEEN RAMDAS (s.u.o.): I understand, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Is there anything further you wish to add. MR RAMDAS Yes. I've finished with the murders, I just, one or two things that, aspects that I want to inform the hearing of here. I was charged for perjury in the Supreme Court in 1988, where I was testifying in a case were Majiet Khan was involved in a murder case. There the court found that I contradicted my evidence and they found that the case had to be registered, a case of perjury had to be registered. The transcripts was sent to Mountain Rise Police Station. The judge sent a transcript to Mountain Rise Police Station. Captain Dorega was the Branch Commander at that stage. He took the transcripts, he read it, he opened a case of perjury. He asked Major Maharaj at that time, female Major Maharaj, to take a warning statement from me. She also put in a statement to say that I was ...(indistinct) off duty. JUDGE PILLAY Who's that? MR RAMDAS Major Maharaj, puts the statement in and then Dorega put in a IO statement and the docket was summoned to court. MR MALAN What's a IO statement? MR RAMDAS Investigating Officer's statement. The docket went to court. Okay, I appeared in the Magistrate's Court, I was found guilty, sentenced to one year imprisonment. On appeal, I was found not guilty, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY What's the relevance of that? MR RAMDAS Where, in 1988, when Majiet Khan murdered two blacks, ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Why does that affect your application? MS LOONAT May I answer that question, Chair, to come to the point? Okay. MR RAMDAS Can you please repeat? JUDGE PILLAY No, your, your ... CHAIRPERSON What Judge Pillay asks is why, why are you raising this now? What's it got to do with your application? MR RAMDAS No, because Dorega, he was the IO of the case here. So he was killed in this case here. JUDGE PILLAY So? MR RAMDAS So maybe now, this thing may arise later or maybe I don't know what's ...(indistinct), so even if somebody does, then I want it recorded ...(indistinct) JUDGE PILLAY Well then, I'll help you if you put it that way. Can you recall when Dorega was actually killed? MR RAMDAS When he was killed? JUDGE PILLAY Yes. CHAIRPERSON It was April. MR RAMDAS 22nd April. CHAIRPERSON 22nd April 1993. JUDGE PILLAY And when was the decision made to kill him? MR RAMDAS I'll give it to you now, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You said it was the 27th of November 1992. MR RAMDAS That, that was the first attempt. The second attempt was 93/04/22. JUDGE PILLAY No, when did you decide ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS The first one, 27th November 1992. JUDGE PILLAY When did you decide to kill him? MR RAMDAS When I decided to? JUDGE PILLAY Kill him. MR RAMDAS On 27th November 1992. JUDGE PILLAY Okay. And this case of perjury, when was it? MR RAMDAS 1988. JUDGE PILLAY No, when was it registered at Mountain Rise? MR RAMDAS In 1988. JUDGE PILLAY Yes ...(indistinct) MR RAMDAS I don't know the month, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Sometime ...(indistinct) 1988, you say. MR RAMDAS Yes, that's right. JUDGE PILLAY And when was that case, when were you convicted? MR RAMDAS 1990, I think it was. JUDGE PILLAY And your appeal? MR RAMDAS I think a year after that, I was found not guilty, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Yes. MR RAMDAS I just want to inform you about Constable Ayer. He's the, Colonel Marion, that is he's Colonel Marion's nephew, that is Constable Ayer. He was, when Singh saw him there at his house, and when Singh ...(indistinct) the special that worked with Singh. They have breaks like lunch breaks or whatever, so he spoke to 20 of them. He'd leave two or three of them to eat, come back, pick them up and ...(indistinct). So Ayer was there on that particular day, and he asked to drive around with Singh. But, the problem was that when Singh started, picked the spades and all up, and he asked him what he was going to do. Singh told him that he wants to bury the body. He said he wants to come with. When he went there, but he first thought that it was that Singh was playing the fool, but when he saw the body he dug the grave and the body was buried. And when Dorega was killed, Constable Ayer had shot him with a shotgun. We were arrested, the same day, the same night, in fact, we were arrested. Only after the shooting, did I realise that Constable Ayer was Marion's nephew. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, what's this person's name? MR RAMDAS Ayer. CHAIRPERSON No, whose nephew? MR RAMDAS Marion. Marion, Colonel Marion. MS LOONAT Mr Ramdas, where was Colonel Marion stationed at this time? MR RAMDAS He was stationed, when was this, in 19, after the murder? MS LOONAT At the time that you mention Ayer and the relationship between Ayer and Marion. MR RAMDAS Ayer was stationed at Mountain Rise. Colonel Marion was, I think, also stationed at Mountain Rise, I'm not too sure. Oh, maybe it was the Riot Investigation Unit, I'm not too sure, Chairperson. MS LOONAT What is the point of bringing Colonel Marion into this, at this stage? MR RAMDAS The murder cases, Colonel Marion investigated our murder cases. The Dorega case and the other cases. Prior to the dockets I was being investigated by the Murder and Robbery Unit, but Colonel Marion wasn't in the Murder and Robbery Unit at that time. JUDGE PILLAY So? MR RAMDAS But he had some interest in it, because he's, that's his nephew that was involved there. JUDGE PILLAY (inaudible) MR RAMDAS And he was sentenced to, he was convicted and sentenced to five years. He served eight months' imprisonment and was released on correctional supervision. CHAIRPERSON At the trial, did it come out that Constable Ayer actually shot Captain Dorega? MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did it? MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So he got five years for being an accessory after the fact ... MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON In the, in the Zulu case for assisting in burying the body and got convicted for shooting Captain Dorega. MR RAMDAS Yes, for all that he got five years. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MS LOONAT Mr Ramdas, the fact that you did not testify at the trial, has that got any bearing on Colonel Marion? MR RAMDAS Yes, I did not testify at the criminal proceeding, because Colonel Marion had a vendetta against me, and he used Captain Pakrey as a front to investigate my case and his nephew, that is Constable Ayer, he was a witness against me in this case. CHAIRPERSON So was Constable Ayer used as a State witness in the Dorega case? MR RAMDAS In the Dorega case. CHAIRPERSON So he couldn't have been convicted of the murder of Dorega. Or did he plead guilty at the beginning and then separation of trials. MR RAMDAS He admitted it, I think, Chairperson. He admitted that he shot Dorega. CHAIRPERSON Was he convicted of it? So he pleaded guilty and there was a separation of trials, then he testified in your case. MR RAMDAS Yes, he was tried ... CHAIRPERSON Separate trials. MR RAMDAS Separate trials, that's right. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS LOONAT Mr Ramdas, you said you wanted to say something about Captain Dorega in 1991 when you picked up ANC members and dockets had to be opened. Do you want to expand on that, please? MR RAMDAS When we arrested ANC youths or ANC members of the ANC, or ANC people from the squatter camps, we were taking them to the police station, where the dockets, the dockets are to be registered and investigated. These dockets were not registered. We found that the next time, the next day when I went to the Crime Register to find out what case number is it, so I can follow up on what happened to the case, I found that there was no charge, the people were released. We had an altercation in the office one day about the same thing and he told me he's the Branch Commander, he got a prerogative to do what he feels like. MS LOONAT Was this the reason why you put him on your hit list? MR RAMDAS MS LOONAT CHAIRPERSON He said it was on the 27th of November 1992. MR RAMDAS He was retired, Chairperson. MS LOONAT Is there anything else you'd like to say, Mr Ramdas, to the Committee Members? MR RAMDAS No, that's fine. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Ms Jaleel, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS JALEEL Yes, Mr Chairperson. If I may proceed? Sir, this SWAT Course that you maintain you went on, was there any type of application that you made to go on it or were you specially chosen to undergo this training? MR RAMDAS No, it was, the Station Commander just picked the people at random. MS JALEEL And you were one of the chosen people? MR RAMDAS I was one of the chosen. MS JALEEL Was Mr, Constable Anilraj Singh another person that was chosen as well? MR RAMDAS I think Constable Anilraj had been through the course as well. MS JALEEL Sir ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Who, who chose you? MR RAMDAS Mr, Colonel Buttle. JUDGE PILLAY Did he tell you why? MR RAMDAS No, he didn't tell me why. JUDGE PILLAY Surely you must have thought about it. They would only admit trustworthy people into that course, is it not so? MR RAMDAS No not really. They just pick people at random. JUDGE PILLAY It's, it's, it is a course designed to prepare people for illegal activities. Not so? MR RAMDAS That is correct, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY In fact, it's an assassination group. MR RAMDAS It's a SWAT Course. JUDGE PILLAY Yes, it was, it was preparation for assassination group of people. MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Mercenaries, almost. MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY Isn't it? MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY And an integral part of this group, its survival depend on the loyalty of those people and how they could keep this whole operation a secret. MR RAMDAS A secret, that's right. JUDGE PILLAY Now, surely, you must have been told, or you thought about what they required, who was the person that identified you with all these qualities? MR RAMDAS Yes, Colonel Buttle, because I worked there at Mountain Rise. I was entrusted with, I was doing investigation of, where policemen were involved, I was doing the investigation, and I felt that Colonel Buttle maybe must have put me there because he is trusting me a lot, and he knew that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, continue please, Ms Jaleel. MS JALEEL Thank you. Sir, this time were you just a constable? MR RAMDAS No, I was a Warrant Officer. MS JALEEL The training you maintained actually directed you towards fighting the ANC who were targeting policemen. Is that correct? MR RAMDAS They were targeting policemen, yes. MS JALEEL But all the victims, the deceased, were, did you have any evidence that they had killed policemen? Or targeted them in any way? MR RAMDAS Not really, they were, they were assisting the ANC or they were furthering the cause for the ANC. MS JALEEL Sir, the Jesmondene incident where you explained to the Committee that Isaac and Joe were attacked and then you counter-attacked by firing at a group of people later that night. MR RAMDAS That is correct. MS JALEEL Sir, I put it to you that that incident did not actually happen. There was no report of it as you yourself said. MR RAMDAS I wouldn't have come up with the incident like this because it means nothing. I mean it's just wasting the Committee's time. But if later on, maybe, the thing comes up and I know I did disclose. MR JALEEL Sir, the incident of Solomon Dlamini, where you maintain that you were also involved in some way, when these, your other two accomplices went through and shot Solomon Dlamini, then there was no record of that. I put it to you that that is also a fabrication. MR RAMDAS No, it did happen, Chairperson. MS JALEEL Sir, what I'm trying to say to you is that you've just put in these incidences to show the Committee that the rest of the murders and attempts were all politically motivated. MR RAMDAS You see, if I just took these murders just from the air as you would have presumed, I wouldn't know that there's a certain person by the name of Sipho Ndlovu, living at that place. I wouldn't have known that. MS JALEEL Sir, I intend to call Captain Pakrey who you earlier on spoke about. He was the investigating officer who investigated all of these offences against the applicant, when the applicant's matter was enrolled at court. Captain Pakrey is going to tell the Committee that he went to this house, there was a point-out done, he went to this house and nobody by that name lived there. MR RAMDAS Then how did the TRC investigator find out that there was somebody by that name lived there? Or used to live there, or whatever it is, or the person is now deceased? MS JALEEL Sir, they did not say, the investigator did not say that the person was found there, they said the person died in 1996. There could be another person with the same name, do you agree? MR RAMDAS No. MS JALEEL Sir, coming to the matter of Mr Padayachee. Okay, that matter, you said it was ordered from Skiza Zuma. MR RAMDAS Yes, that's right. MS JALEEL To kill Mr Padayachee. MR RAMDAS That is correct. MS JALEEL MR RAMDAS No. When I was arrested, I was taken there to Margate, near the Wild Coast, I was detained there. I didn't, I don't know anything about what was going on here. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, so you're saying that you don't know that Mrs Padayachee was arrested for that killing? MR RAMDAS No, I don't anything about it, whether she was arrested or ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is this the first you hear of it now? MR RAMDAS Yes, I'm hearing about it now. MS JALEEL Sir, do you know Mrs Padayachee? MR RAMDAS I know her by sight, because I stay in the same road. MS JALEEL MR RAMDAS If, if Mrs Padayachee is here, or the deceased's wife is here, you can ask her straight. Why call somebody else? She can just verify if I am related to her. CHAIRPERSON Is she your aunt? MR RAMDAS No, she's not my aunt. CHAIRPERSON Are you related to her? MR RAMDAS No, I'm not related to her. Can you look around ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY You only know her by sight? MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? JUDGE PILLAY You only know her by sight? MR RAMDAS Yes. I've seen her in the road, because I ride past. You see the people outside, sweeping ... JUDGE PILLAY So you don't know her to talk to. MR RAMDAS No, I don't know her at all. JUDGE PILLAY Never spoken to her before? MR RAMDAS No, I haven't spoken to her. MS JALEEL Sir, I put it to you that Mrs Padayachee, yesterday, during a telephone conversation between myself and her, told me that she is related to you. She will come through, but she told me personally that she is related to you. MR RAMDAS No, she didn't come to the Commission and talk about it. MS JALEEL MR RAMDAS That is right. MS JALEEL Was it easy for you get these monies back from the rest of your hit squad group? MR RAMDAS They were at one house, the time when I went there. They all lived in one house. Williams did not live there. Williams was there the day when the money was given to them. So it wasn't a problem, the money was, Singh stayed on top, the specials stayed in the bottom. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, just before you proceed, Ms Jaleel, I'd just to clear up one thing. You keep talking about the specials. Are these special constables who ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS That are on my hit squad. CHAIRPERSON And those special constables, is that Indaba, Nkono, was Williams one? Or was he a ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS No, he was a policeman. Williams was a policeman. CHAIRPERSON So it was Indaba, Nkono ... MR RAMDAS And Ayer was also a special, too. CHAIRPERSON And Ayer. Now these special constables, were they, did they receive their training at Koeberg? MR RAMDAS That's right, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON They were part of that group? MR RAMDAS That group there, yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you. MS JALEEL So, there was another count of arson on which you were charged, is that correct? MR RAMDAS Yes, I was charged there. I was convicted there too, as well. But I'm telling this hearing, it's got nothing to do with this here, but I wasn't there and Singh will come up and he'll verify what I was saying. MS JALEEL But just for verification to the Committee, is it correct then, it was part of your hit squad that actually carried out this crime of arson? MR RAMDAS No, Constable Singh, he belongs to my hit squad. He committed arson, he will give the reason why and what have you. I gave him no instructions for that. That wasn't political, it wasn't anything. It's got nothing to do with this case. MS JALEEL But he was a member of your hit squad? MR RAMDAS He was a member of my hit squad. MS JALEEL So are you then telling this Committee that your hit squad was involved in activities other than ....(intervention) MR RAMDAS Not the hit squad. MS JALEEL Okay, I will rephrase then. You're telling the Committee that your members, your members apart from the hit squad, carried on their own little criminal activities on the side-line? MR RAMDAS No. No, no. We're talking about members, we talk about Constable Singh. He is the one only that did that arson thing. There's no other person that went off the line there. MS JALEEL Sir, do you know of an attack on Jenny Pillay? MR RAMDAS Yes, I know of that incident, yes. MS JALEEL Can you tell us a little about that please? MR RAMDAS No, with that thing, Constable Maistry was involved in that incident there. I had nothing to do with it. MS JALEEL But Constable Maistry was also aware of your hit squad or your activities. Is that not correct? MR RAMDAS No, he wasn't in, he wasn't aware of the hit squad. MS JALEEL MR RAMDAS He was drunk, that's right, he was drunk and passed out. So he didn't know nothing. MS JALEEL With regards to Mr Dorega, okay. The perjury charge was brought against you, you maintained in 1988. Is that correct? MR RAMDAS Yes. MS JALEEL You were convicted in 1990. MR RAMDAS That's correct. MS JALEEL Then you appealed the Magistrate's Court decision and it went to the Supreme Court where you did not succeed in that application, is that not correct? MR RAMDAS I was found not guilty. MS JALEEL Is it not correct that you were found not guilty at the Appellate Division? MR RAMDAS Yes. MS JALEEL And that was in 1993? MR RAMDAS I don't know which year, but I was in prison, so I, but it came up, some how or other, I just hear about it. JUDGE PILLAY How many appeals did you lodge? MR RAMDAS I went to my lawyer once. He informed me of this. He said I'm going to the Supreme Court. That is all I heard. JUDGE PILLAY Did you not go to Bloemfontein to the ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS Yes, we went to Bloemfontein, Supreme Court there in Bloemfontein. CHAIRPERSON That's the appeal. You see, from the Magistrate's Court your first appeal would have been to, what was then known as the Supreme Court, now known as the High Court, here in Pietermaritzburg. MR RAMDAS Yes, that's right. CHAIRPERSON And they argue the appeal there and then if that appeal was unsuccessful, then you want to carry on with the appeal, then it goes from there to Bloemfontein, which the last court of appeal. There's nothing beyond that. MR RAMDAS Oh, I see. CHAIRPERSON This is what Ms Jaleel's putting to you, is that your appeal went the whole route and was finally successful in Bloemfontein, but during 1993. MR RAMDAS Yes, that could be right. MS JALEEL Sir, and you've also said to us that it was in, on the 27th of November 1992, when you actually decided that a hit ought to be out on Dorega. Is that correct? MR RAMDAS Yes. MS JALEEL Sir, is it not so that you were scared of what the outcome of your appeal would be, considering you failed all other avenues and this was the reason ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS No. MS JALEEL Why Mr Dorega was murdered? MR RAMDAS No. I was not scared. He was not killed because of the case against me, no. Because of his, him being ANC and him being associated with these people here. MS JALEEL Sir, you maintained that there were high-ranking officials in the SAP who condoned activities which were counter-ANC, and I presume these to be high-ranking officials, would you agree and could you give us some names, please? MS LOONAT Could you please rephrase the question for my client? JUDGE PILLAY You got upset that certain high-ranking officials in the Police Force were friendly towards your cause. Is that it? Against his cause. MS JALEEL Against the ANC. JUDGE PILLAY Well, his cause is the IFP cause. Who supported the cause of the IFP. MR RAMDAS I was against it. JUDGE PILLAY No, you favoured the cause of the IFP, isn't it? MR RAMDAS That is correct. JUDGE PILLAY And there was also other people, high-ranking officials within the force who had similar views. The question is, could you tell us who those people were? MR RAMDAS Higher-ranking people? JUDGE PILLAY Yes. MR RAMDAS I don't know, I can't recall any names. I can't, cannot give any names. MS LOONAT Ms Jaleel, can I just expand? Are you referring to the SWAT Course, the course that he did? CHAIRPERSON I think you made mention that you attended various meetings, different places and you came across Captain Brian Mitchell and Colonel, was it Vorster? MR RAMDAS Yes, that is right. But they were present at the meeting. I don't, they were present at the meeting, that's what I mentioned. MS JALEEL So, would you say they were IFP sympathisers as well? MR RAMDAS That I wouldn't know. They could have been. I know Captain Brian Mitchell was a IFP sympathiser. MS JALEEL Okay, then let's go back a little bit. At these meetings were these political affiliations discussed, what exactly was discussed at your meetings? MR RAMDAS Do you want to know everything of it? MS JALEEL Yes. CHAIRPERSON We don't want to sit here for as long as the accumulative time it took all those meetings to conclude, but if you could just give us the gist of it. MR RAMDAS It is just that Colonel Vorster made mention on this one meeting that he made mention, that he had given firearms to the SDUs and that he has given them permission in writing. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, the SDUs ... MR RAMDAS Self-defence units. They were the IFP's. CHAIRPERSON The IFP ones. MR RAMDAS That's right. I beg your pardon? SDUs. Self-defence unit. Sorry, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You also have the ANC self-defence units. MR RAMDAS That's correct, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY Let's make it easier for you. What was the purpose of all these meetings? MR RAMDAS What was the purpose? JUDGE PILLAY Yes. MR RAMDAS When we used to go up to the locations or to the squatter camps, or let's take an example like when we were going out to Edendale, when the seven day war was on. You find, when we search, stop and search this situation, we find a chap carrying a firearm or you search and you find a firearm. Then he produces a piece of paper with authorisation from Colonel Vorster saying, if the person is arrested and is taken there, but when we reached the police station, a member of the Security Branch will say, release the man, because he was of the SDUs or maybe it was the indunas and we had given him the firearms. So that's how it was. JUDGE PILLAY So all this was discussed at such meetings? MR RAMDAS That's what I'm trying to explain, that to my learned friend, ...(indistinct) that at the meetings Colonel Vorster stated that he's given firearms, he's given authorisation so if they, they're fighting with the police as well. JUDGE PILLAY Was there no way you would have found out what the affiliations or sympathies were of those high-ranking officers at such meetings? MR RAMDAS No, I don't know about Colonel Vorster and the other people. But I presumed they were IFP, I presumed. CHAIRPERSON Yes, continue. MS JALEEL Sir, you maintained that there were occasions on which you made arrests and Mr Dorega asked you not to open the charge and not to book the exhibits in. And you said nothing happened with those matters. Did you ever report this to anybody? Did you find out why nothing proceeded? MR RAMDAS That's when I had the altercation with him. I approached him myself and I asked him why are you not charging these people? Then he told me he's the Branch Commander, he can decide. He was a Lieutenant, he was higher than me. So I couldn't question his authority. So I just left it at that. MS JALEEL Isn't there any other higher-ranking authority that you could have went to to complain about this? I mean you were doing the hard work? MR RAMDAS He was, he was in charge of me. He was the highest. JUDGE PILLAY He was the highest ranking police official? ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS He was there, in Mountain Rise, in the CIDs. JUDGE PILLAY Listen to me. Is he the highest ranking police officer that you knew at that time? MR RAMDAS No. JUDGE PILLAY So why didn't you go to a higher-ranking officer than what he was? Even if it was in Mountain Rise Police Station? MR RAMDAS I felt that if I went, maybe if I felt I went to somebody else that officer will tell his fellow-colleague, because the officers don't mingle with the non-commissioned officers. Tell him listen, this is what from this complaint about you. Maybe I can be transferred from there. JUDGE PILLAY But come, Mr Ramdas. You complained to the man himself. So those possibilities existed because of your direct approach. How would approaching another police officer affect that? MR RAMDAS After this incident, after I approached him, I was transferred from there. JUDGE PILLAY Precisely. MR RAMDAS I was transferred back to Uniform Branch. JUDGE PILLAY So, so, the risk had already been taken. MR RAMDAS No, I'm talking about being transferred out of, out of the province, you know. JUDGE PILLAY Whatever risk you took, you took it by approaching him. MR RAMDAS Yes, I approached him. JUDGE PILLAY So, why didn't you complain to another policeman of a higher rank? MR RAMDAS We approached Colonel du Preez. JUDGE PILLAY Did you? MR RAMDAS Yes, I went to Colonel du Preez. JUDGE PILLAY So why are you struggling now? Why didn't you say so in the first place? MR RAMDAS No, I'm feeling it hard to, what she's trying to get across to me. Colonel du Preez came one day ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Sorry, if you could just explain before you tell us. Who is Colonel du Preez, where was he from ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS He was in charge of all the CIDs throughout Natal. CHAIRPERSON Was he, was he based in Maritzburg here? MR RAMDAS He was at the Trust Bank Building, in, yes, the Trust Bank Building in Church Street. CHAIRPERSON You say that he is in charge of CIDs in the area. MR RAMDAS That's right. At the time there, yes. CHAIRPERSON And so you say that you report to Colonel du Preez the fact that your Station Commander was burying certain cases and not following up cases. MR RAMDAS Let me explain to you, Chairperson. We had inspection at the station. This incident happened one day before Colonel could come. Captain Michael was also present there. Captain Michael told me to keep quiet, leave this thing, let it lie low. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, who's Captain Michael? Was he also from the same police station as you? MR RAMDAS At Mountain Rise, he worked under Captain Dorega. They both were captains together there. But Captain Dorega was the Branch Commander, he was second in charge. Captain Michael told me to keep quiet, let this thing lie. When Captain, oh, after the, after the meeting he had with us, Colonel du Preez asked us for complaints, requests, Michael told me to keep quiet. The next day, I was heard I was transferred to, back to the Uniform Branch. The same day, I went to Colonel du Preez and asked him why was it I was being transferred and he said, "hey, Ramdas, I didn't know it was you that Captain Dorega was talking about." Then he asked me to go back to the CIDs. I told him, no I won't go back and I stayed in the Uniform Branch. CHAIRPERSON But did you tell Captain, I mean, Colonel du Preez, about these cases involving arresting ANC suspects in possession of arms, etc, which Captain Dorega suppressed and didn't follow the usual procedure with? MR RAMDAS I wanted to tell him, but I decided not to. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Yes. MS JALEEL Thank you. Sir, ...(intervention) MR MALAN Sorry. May I just take this a little further. I'm not sure that I understand this. You say, you went the next day to speak to Colonel du Preez? MR RAMDAS That is correct. MR MALAN And you asked why you were being transferred. And then, did I record you correctly saying, that he told you that he did not know it was you that Dorega spoke about? MR RAMDAS Yes, apparently there was a conversation between Dorega and ...(intervention) MR MALAN He told you about that conversation? MR RAMDAS Colonel du Preez? MR MALAN Yes. MR RAMDAS He just said that Captain Dorega was, spoke to him about me and he said that I should be transferred. He didn't give me reasons or whatever it is, that I should be transferred back to the Uniform Branch. MR MALAN And he also said he didn't know it was you that ... MR RAMDAS Yes. He didn't know that he was talking about me. MR MALAN Right. MR RAMDAS He just said that there was, this is what I recall now, he said that there was a person working, officer working there who's on probation, and this is what they discussed, something about someone, once you're on probation, they could transfer you back to your branch. MR MALAN And you still didn't mention to him the reason for your transfer? MR RAMDAS I wanted to, but I just left it like that. MR MALAN Why? MR RAMDAS Because I didn't want to go back to the CIDs, there with Captain Dorega. JUDGE PILLAY You've already said that you don't want to go back. MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY So why didn't you just tell him, "well, now that I've decided not to go back, it will be worth your while to investigate Dorega because he is sinking dockets." Why didn't you tell him that? MR RAMDAS No, I didn't want to tell anybody, I didn't want to trust anyone. JUDGE PILLAY Why? MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? JUDGE PILLAY Why? MR RAMDAS I don't know which affiliation Colonel du Preez was or which ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY I find that strange. At that time, you knew that Dorega was friendly to the ANC. It's the worst, the worst type you could have taken. Not so? MR RAMDAS Can you just, just repeat that last portion again? JUDGE PILLAY That you complained directly to Dorega himself. MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY Asking him why he was sinking dockets. MR RAMDAS That is correct. JUDGE PILLAY So why didn't you, you trusted or confronted a man sympathetic to the ANC. So why didn't you talk to somebody else then? You say you didn't talk to anybody else because you didn't trust them? MR RAMDAS Yes, these high-ranking officers, I don't really, don't want to mingle with them, because I'm way down there, sir. JUDGE PILLAY Oh, I see. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Ms Jaleel. MR MALAN Sorry, sorry, Chair. You went to Du Preez the next day. MR RAMDAS Yes. When I, you see, the next day when I went to work, Captain Dorega told me, I came with my normal, my suit and tie, because the CIDs wear the clothes like what you're wearing, civilian dress. When I went there, he said, "oh, Ramdas, you're no more in my branch. You're now transferred to the CID Department, I mean, to the Uniform Branch" sorry. So I asked him why, he says Colonel du Preez says so. So that is when I went to Colonel du Preez. MR MALAN So you went to Colonel du Preez? MR RAMDAS Yes, I went to Colonel du Preez. MR MALAN Of your own accord? MR RAMDAS Yes, I went on my own. MR MALAN And you just asked him why you were being transferred? MR RAMDAS No. When I went there, he asked me, "Ramdas, what are you doing in the Uniform Branch?" MR MALAN Were you reporting for duty to Colonel du Preez? MR RAMDAS Yes. I was reporting to him. MR MALAN Thank you. MS JALEEL Sir, you've linked Mr Dorega with Mr Padayachee by saying that you saw Dorega pick up two black men ... MR RAMDAS ANC people. MS JALEEL How, how, were you certain that these were ANC people? Had you seen them before? Had you seen them at marches? MR RAMDAS These ANC people, I mean, they camp in Swapo, it belongs to the ANC. ...(indistinct) ANC stronghold. So people from there, you'll never find a IFP who's staying in the ANC camp, no, you won't find that. MS JALEEL So you're telling me that not one single family, maybe even more, that lived in Swapo are IFP supporters? MR RAMDAS Not one. JUDGE PILLAY But couldn't some people be neutral? MR RAMDAS Why couldn't? JUDGE PILLAY Some of those residents be neutral? MR RAMDAS Why they couldn't be neutral? JUDGE PILLAY Yes. Why do they have to belong to one party or the other? MR RAMDAS You see, when the people fled there, you see, all the ANC will live together, all IFP will live together, that's they, that's how ... MS JALEEL Sir, the sister of deceased, the deceased Petrus Zulu and Sipho Zulu, will say that they were not politically active at all and they lived in Swapo. How do you then actually tie them up to be politically motivated? MR RAMDAS Sipho Zulu and his, Muzi, and Petrus Zulu and all, they were coming from a march, ANC march, that was there in Wardley Stadium. CHAIRPERSON I think what the sister's, what Ms Jaleel is saying, is that the sister, she's not politically active at all and hasn't been. MR RAMDAS But if you're not politically active, why do you go for marches, I mean, for the rally and listen to what they're saying? CHAIRPERSON Did the sister go for a march? MR RAMDAS Yes, they all were in the busses. CHAIRPERSON The sister? Of the Zulus? MR RAMDAS I don't know. At that time when the shooting happened and all that, there were hundreds of supporters there, but I don't know if the sister is the ANC or what, but they did attend the marches. At the busses we were escorting from the stadium, through town, to Northdale. MS JALEEL Okay. You say, and in your statement you state that the attack on Singh took place 50 metres away from the police station which was later on robbed of firearms, of a cache of about 15 firearms. Correct? MR RAMDAS That is correct. It's not very far from where the police station is. MS JALEEL Are you telling us then that this attack actually took place in Swapo? It never took place en route from the stadium to Swapo. These people were just walking on the road. MR RAMDAS We were escorting the busses. When the busses stopped, they jumped off the busses, and they were trying to go back to the camps. That's when a group of about 10 people attacked him, from the people from the busses, they attacked him. That's what I'm trying to get at. Not the people from the Swapo camp, no. They lived there. But the people from the busses, they attacked him. MS JALEEL Sir, we will clarify that with Mr Singh, but for our clarity at this point in time, all I want to know is that, that incident where Petrus Zulu was killed, that took place in the Swapo area and not en route from Northdale to some other place far away from Swapo. Is that correct? Yes or no? MR RAMDAS This incident took place there right there, near the police station. No, no, not in Swapo. Swapo is ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON This is being put to you by Ms Jaleel. If you could just answer the question with a yes or no. What is being put to you is that Petrus Zulu was killed within Swapo camp. Is that correct? In the camp itself. Not on the way to or from ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS No, no, not in the camp. No, no, not in the camp. No, no. MS JALEEL You say it's very close to the camp. MR RAMDAS Yes, close to the camp. MS JALEEL Very close. MR RAMDAS No, not very close. JUDGE PILLAY How far? MR RAMDAS About 150 metres or so. MS JALEEL Subsequent to this, the killing of Petrus Zulu, do you know if there was any type of action brought against the policemen who were involved? MR RAMDAS I think there was a civil claim issued against, against Constable Singh. From what I gather, yes, there was, I think there was a civil claim. A civil claim, I'm not too sure, that you'll find out from Singh. But I, he can give you clarity here. It was just, three people were shot the day. It was Petrus Zulu, Muzi, Sipho Zulu. Petrus Zulu died. Sipho Zulu, he was the only one who issued a civil claim. Muzi did, I don't know what is the reason why he didn't issue a civil claim, but ...(intervention) MS JALEEL So you're telling this Committee with certainty that there was a civil claim instituted? Because earlier on you denied having any knowledge of any liability or any claim that arose out of this. MR RAMDAS I don't recall. But I, even in my opening statement, I admitted ...(indistinct) nothing, that there was a civil claim issued against him. CHAIRPERSON Would this be a claim for damages? MR RAMDAS Yes, I think so, Chairperson. MS LOCKHAT Chairperson, just to clarify that the civil claim was instituted against Mr Singh and Mr Norman Nkono. MS JALEEL Do you know, or were you present when summons was issued on Mr Singh? MR RAMDAS No, I wasn't present. MR MALAN When it was served on him? MR RAMDAS No, I wasn't there. MS JALEEL Did, did you have anything to do with the murder of Sipho Zulu? MR RAMDAS I gave the instructions for him to be killed on 5/5/92 at the hospital where he threatened Singh. That's the time I gave instructions for both Sipho Zulu and Muzi to be killed. That's at the hospital. MS JALEEL Was this instruction not given after a civil claim had been sought, because the civil claim was for a huge sum of money? MR RAMDAS No, no that, no. That's on 5/5/92, at the hospital, when I went to the hospital, when he made the threats, that's when I told Singh at the police station. That's when I gave the instruction. MS JALEEL Coming to the incident of Sipho Ndlovu. MR RAMDAS Sipho Ndlovu, yes. MS JALEEL Okay. You maintained there that you knew that Mr Ndlovu was, the deceased, was politically inclined because of this meeting at the taxi rank and because of the flag incident. MR RAMDAS Sipho Ndlovu? No, no. CHAIRPERSON No, that's Dlamini, is the taxi. Ndlovu is the one which you've dealt with, which you've put didn't occur. So you're talking about Dlamini now, Solomon Dlamini. MS JALEEL Sorry, Mr Chair. Okay. Solomon Dlamini, this was the incident, the scenario that I've just given you, and the wrong name, unfortunately. MR RAMDAS Okay. MS JALEEL All right. The, that incident, there was also a charge brought against policemen there for malicious injury to property. Is that not correct? MR RAMDAS That's against Constable Maistry. That's against Constable Maistry, Chairperson. MS JALEEL Were you aware of the civil claim? MR RAMDAS Civil claim? No, I wasn't aware. Constable Maistry just came with me, came with a summons to me, said that he won't be coming to work, he must appear in court. So I asked him to have a look at the summons, that's when I saw the name and address. That's when I realised this man here is one of the persons that I was wanting. MS JALEEL Was Solomon Dlamini killed prior to the date on which this matter actually went to court? MR RAMDAS The day he was supposed to appear in court? No, the summons was issued on, I think it was the 2nd, can I just confirm that? MS JALEEL It wouldn't actually be the summons, it would be the date of the appearance. It would have been the subpoena, it would have had a date for him to appear at court. MR RAMDAS I'm not too sure about that, I didn't see the date and what have you. I only saw the summons, when I saw the name and address, then I realised it was the same person that was at the Retief Street march and that it was the same person that was at the Natalia march. CHAIRPERSON How long after having seen that summons which contained the name and address was Dlamini killed? After you saw that summons, how long, how much later was Solomon Dlamini killed? Same day, or ... MR RAMDAS No, I'm not too sure, Chairperson. Which date, I don't know, if I can get the date of the summons, which day the summons appeared, then I can ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON But from your memory you said, you said that you saw Maistry came and he showed you this summons. MR RAMDAS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And then you realised that this was the person that, that you had followed to his house, etc, etc. MR RAMDAS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now, from the time that you saw that summons, that Maistry showed it to you, how much later was Solomon Dlamini killed? MR RAMDAS He was killed the same day. CHAIRPERSON The same day as this ... MR RAMDAS Same day. I used that summons to lay him out the house, Chairperson. Because I went to his house, I instructed the special constables to go there and to ask him if he laid a charge against the police and to bring him to the van. That's how I managed to get him out the house. MR MALAN You said that Maistry showed the summons and told you that he had to appear in court. MR RAMDAS Yes, that's right. MR MALAN And you say that, that same day, Dlamini was killed. MR RAMDAS Yes, that's right. MR MALAN Why did you find it so difficult to say whether he was killed prior to the matter going to court or not? MR RAMDAS I couldn't understand nicely what has been said. MR MALAN Okay. MS JALEEL You spoke about Superintendent Marion, or as he was known then, Colonel Marion, and Captain Pakrey. Okay, you are au fait with them, due to the fact that they investigated the matters. CHAIRPERSON Colonel Marion, and what was the other one? MR RAMDAS Pakrey. MS JALEEL Captain Pakrey. CHAIRPERSON Captain Pakrey. MS JALEEL You are au fait with them, due to the investigation which they did into your matters. Correct? MR RAMDAS Yes. I'm aware of them. MS JALEEL You've also said that Ayer was the, was related to Colonel Marion. MR RAMDAS That was his uncle. MS JALEEL That's right then. And, now, you, you've maintained that Ayer got five years for an accessory after the fact and for shooting Dorega. Right. Which you didn't seem to think was fair. Do you know why he had such a short term of imprisonment? Are you saying then that you think that Colonel Marion had something to do with this? MR RAMDAS Yes. He did have something to do with it. MS JALEEL Would you like to tell us what? MR RAMDAS He was investigating our case. He could have spoke to the Prosecutor. MS JALEEL Are you trying to tell us then that he bought a judge or he ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS No, no, no. MS JALEEL The Prosecutor? MR RAMDAS I didn't say that. MS JALEEL But that's what you're trying to imply. MR RAMDAS I didn't say that. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, do you know in which court Ayer was charged? MR RAMDAS He was charged there in Durban. CHAIRPERSON In the Supreme Court or the Regional Court? MR RAMDAS No, it was, it was, I'm not too sure, one of the lower Courts, not Supreme Court. It wasn't in the Supreme Court, no, it wasn't in the Supreme Court. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, if I could just follow that up. Where? Sorry, you'd probably know more, the legal representatives, but if a crime is committed, one crime is committed in the Pietermaritzburg district, namely the burying of the murdered person's body, and another crime is committed in Umkomaas, namely the shooting of Captain Dorega, if it wasn't the Supreme Court, if it was the Regional Court, would there be a Regional Court that would have jurisdiction to hear, a Regional Court, would the Regional Court in Durban have jurisdiction to hear an Umkomaas and Maritzburg case? I don't know. I'm asking ... MR RAMDAS ...(indistinct), Ayer was, I mean I was still in prison at that time, I didn't appear for his case as a witness or anything like. I just heard that he was found guilty, pleaded guilty whatever it is, but the case after that was transferred from Durban to Pietermaritzburg. That's where Colonel Marion handled the matter. MS JALEEL Thank you. So, what I am going to put to you now, is that you have looked around this hall, you've seen that Colonel Marion and Captain Pakrey have been sitting here from this morning and you know that they're going to give evidence and that's why you've tried to paint to this Committee a negative picture of these two, without having any concrete evidence to put for us. MR RAMDAS What I'm telling you is the truth. MS JALEEL Sir, but the truth will need some concrete evidence. If you can give this Committee something concrete, then, yes, they can ignore the evidence that Mr Pakrey, Captain Pakrey or Colonel Marion is going to put for us. MR RAMDAS Did you have a look at the docket? At the murder docket. Did you have a look at it? MS JALEEL Sir, if you've had a look at it, then you give us something concrete ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS No, no. MS JALEEL I'm not saying that you're lying. What I am saying is, give us something concrete. MR RAMDAS The reason why I asked you this here, is because you're talking about Colonel Marion, if I'd seen him and what have you, painting a picture, I am telling you now how the case was investigated. I was locked up. The, Constable Singh, Maistry, Williams and these people, they were chivvying, assaulting them and what have you. Colonel Marion, Pakrey or whoever it was, that was doing that, I mean, I don't know, they will come and ...(indistinct) they come testify whatever. Williams was assaulted. He was taken to the District Surgeon. First he was taken to, he was taken to Colonel Buttle's house. Colonel Buttle instructed that, anyway let's put you in the picture. MS JALEEL Sir, the question was straightforward. We don't need to go into all of this. What I am saying ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS No, what .... MS JALEEL What I am saying to you is that give me some concrete evidence that Colonel Marion had something to do directly with Constable Ayer getting a shorter sentence. Then we'd know that we can destroy the man's credibility. MR RAMDAS I'm explaining to you now. You're cutting me off. MS JALEEL But tell me with regards to Ayer's case. That's what we're talking about, not Williams, not, nobody else. MR RAMDAS If a man commits a murder, he gets five years and he only serves eight months imprisonment and the other accused get life imprisonment, surely you can draw your conclusions in this. JUDGE PILLAY Is that what you base your conclusions on? MR RAMDAS Yes, that is what I base it on. JUDGE PILLAY Do you want a answer. That's what he's used to base his conclusions on. MR RAMDAS We got life there. He got five years and he only served eight months imprisonment. MS JALEEL Sir, I put it to you that the magistrate or whoever listened to the case and however they listened to it, listened to it with a clear view, with a clear mind. I don't think that they're going to sit there and be actually bought off by somebody or make a decision with regards to was the Investigating Officer in the case. It would work on the merits of the case. MR RAMDAS The man admitted that he shot the Captain. Pleaded guilty. MS JALEEL So, we have now shown this Committee that in, if the Committee will bear with me, six, in exactly six of the crimes for which you are claiming amnesty or you are making application for amnesty on, exactly six of them, there were other motives. They were all, they were either civil cases against policemen who even in their individual capacity as members were part of this hit squad, each one of them had something against you people or one of you as a group. MR RAMDAS No. That is denied, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying then, it's just a pure coincidence that, let's take them. In Captain Dorega's case, he had been the Investigating Officer in your perjury matter. In the Sipho Zulu case, the deceased there was a plaintiff in a large civil claim for damages against Constable Singh. In the Dlamini case, the deceased was the complainant in a malicious intention to damage property case against Constable Maistry, who played a part in his death. MR RAMDAS And Padayachee? And the other two? Okay, that, the other things I agree with. CHAIRPERSON No, but as you say, that's just coincidence that there happened to be a personal connection between ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS Yes, it's just coincidence. CHAIRPERSON Is that what you're saying? MR RAMDAS Yes. MS JALEEL No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS JALEEL CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions you'd like to ask? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT Yes, thank you, Chairperson. Mr Ramdas, so it's correct that you, on your own initiative, formed this hit squad? Is that correct? MR RAMDAS That is correct. MS LOCKHAT Was your Colonel Buttle, he was never aware of any of these incidents? MR RAMDAS No. MS LOCKHAT When you formed this hit squad and you incorporated all these persons, what did you explain to them what this hit squad was all about? MR RAMDAS Yes, I did explain to Constable Singh, Nkono, Maistry, I mean Williams, and Indaba. I did explain to them. MS LOCKHAT But, what did you explain to them, what was the hit squad all about? MR RAMDAS I explained to them that the ANC, they're making the country ungovernable, they were burning shops, destroying property what have you, killing. They were trying to further the armed struggle and that we, as policemen, we're doing nothing about it. And we must stop them. And in order to do that, that was why I formed the hit squad, then. MS LOCKHAT You said that Mr Zuma gave you orders and compiled a list of who to kill. MR RAMDAS Not all of it. MS LOCKHAT Not all of it. Some of it? MR RAMDAS Yes. MS LOCKHAT We'd had a statement from Mr Zuma and he denies all of these allegations. He says he's never, ever given any of you instructions. He's never informed any of you to go out and eliminate anybody. Can you respond to that? MR RAMDAS Yes. Mr Skiza Zuma is a free man. If he implicates himself in this matter here, I'm sure the Committee or whoever is listening, could say, hey, charge this man. So that is why he must deny it. MS LOCKHAT We have an affidavit, on page 44, of Mr Zuma, in the bundle, Chairperson, just for the record. I shall just read the extract to you on page 44 of Mr Zuma. CHAIRPERSON Thanks, reading at paragraph 3, yes. MS LOCKHAT Paragraph 3. "I have no knowledge of any of the incidents as mentioned, neither do I have any knowledge of the criminal or political offences for which the applicants seek amnesty." MR RAMDAS Yes. As I explained to you, he's a free man. I've seen this thing here. So he's got a lot to lose, if he admits. JUDGE PILLAY What has he got to lose if he admits? MR RAMDAS MS LOCKHAT For, in the Sipho Ndlovu matter, did Mr Zuma give you the orders to, to wipe him out? Or to eliminate him? MR RAMDAS Who are you talking about? Sipho? MS LOCKHAT Sipho Ndlovu. MR RAMDAS Yes, that's right. MS LOCKHAT The Sweetwaters matter. MR RAMDAS That is correct. MS LOCKHAT Who decided to actually kill Sipho Ndlovu? MR RAMDAS Can you just quote the last part again? MS LOCKHAT Who decided to kill Sipho Ndlovu? Was it Mr Zuma or was, did you give the orders to actually do the killing? MR RAMDAS Sipho Zuma gave the instructions via Indaba. And then I had the last say in that. What I mean, last say, is that Zuma gave the name, but I said, okay, told, got my squad, explained to them what the story and then, we went out there to kill him. MS LOCKHAT So Zuma gave a name. He didn't actually say go out and eliminate this person. Is that correct? You did this on your own accord. MR RAMDAS Zuma knew that there was a hit squad. Why would he give a hit squad a name, what is it for, is it to go visit him, have tea? That's all? No ... JUDGE PILLAY The name of the deceased or target, where would that have come from? MR RAMDAS That was from Zuma. JUDGE PILLAY No, that's the question. CHAIRPERSON Now, did you do your, any recce work? Did you, or any member of your hit squad establish the activities of, or confirm the activities of Mr Ndlovu? MR RAMDAS Yes, I did go out there. CHAIRPERSON Did you go and watch him and find out what his movements were, and establish that he in fact was a proper target? Did you satisfy yourself that? MR RAMDAS Yes, that is, I do that before I go out there. CHAIRPERSON What did you do? MR RAMDAS I go out to the area, I take the specials, make enquiries, who's this person, and find out, keep observation on him, see what he does, all those things. When he lived in, in the IFP area, they had, I'll give it to you now, I've got the name here. Right, just, my mind is not with me now. CHAIRPERSON Who you talking about now? Zuma? MR RAMDAS Yes. CHAIRPERSON He stayed at Harewood. MR RAMDAS Harewood Location, that's it. That's the IFP area, he lived there. MS LOCKHAT I'll move on to the second hit, the Jesmondene one. MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? MS LOCKHAT I'll move on to the Jesmondene hit, the second ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS Jesmondene. MS LOCKHAT Jesmondene. Thank you. Was it only Constable Indaba that fired the shots? MR RAMDAS From what I can recall, I think, yes. MS LOCKHAT Was he the only one with a weapon? MR RAMDAS Constable Norman Nkono also had a firearm. I was standing far away from them. I was on the opposite side, keeping an eye open, in case the people run. So I can't really say who, I mean if both of them fired, or one of them fired, but as far as I know I think Indaba fired. MS LOCKHAT You said you fired into this IFP camp where seven ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS ANC camp. MS LOCKHAT ANC camp, where people were sitting round a fire, just in a group. MR RAMDAS Yes. MS LOCKHAT You just fired at it at random. Is that correct? MR RAMDAS No, we fired at the people that were, some information that I got, we fired at the people sitting around the fire there. MS LOCKHAT What information did you get? MR RAMDAS No, the information that after the shooting ...(indistinct) that we fired at the people that was sitting at the, around the fire there. MS LOCKHAT So basically, it was a random shooting. You didn't know who these people were? MR RAMDAS No, no, no. We knew who they were. It was a ANC stronghold at this, and these people from there, people from the camp attacked Isaacs and Joe. MS LOCKHAT So are you saying that those specific eight or seven people actually attacked Joe and Isaac. Is that what you say? MR RAMDAS It could be one or two of them, be all of them, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON It could be none of them. MR RAMDAS It could be none of them. MS LOCKHAT I put it to you that this was really a ruthless attack on innocent people that were just sitting, not knowing what's happening, not knowing that your friends, your colleagues, Joe and Isaac, was actually assaulted, and this was a random attack, not knowing which political affiliations these person were, and that it was absolutely negligent on your part. MR RAMDAS No, these people were from the ANC district, and there, it was, how can I explain to you? ...(indistinct) when these people realised that Isaac and Joe were IFP, they attacked them. So it was political this thing, Chairperson. MR MALAN Sorry, Ms Lockhat, are you, do you have any evidence referring to the earlier questions of your colleague, that this attack indeed did take place? Any such information? MS LOCKHAT No. Absolutely nothing, Chairperson. I shall move on to the Solomon Dlamini incident. MR RAMDAS I just want, I just want to speak to my attorney, please. One second. MS LOONAT Mr Chairman, the, what was worrying my client was simply that Ms Jaleel made accusations of a relationship existing between Mr Padayachee and him and she's not followed it up, and it was just nagging him. That's what he wanted to clarify. MS JALEEL Sir, if I may just follow-up. I indicated to you that evidence will be led after your application is made and Mr Singh's. Then we will have a chance to call in witnesses and make submissions to the Committee to prove to them that what we're saying is correct. CHAIRPERSON It was very proper of Ms Jaleel to put it to you that you are related, to give you an opportunity to admit or deny it. You admitted it and now she's just saying that she will be calling a witness - you denied it, at least - and now she'll be calling a witness. But it was correct for her to raise it at that stage, to give you an opportunity to respond. MR RAMDAS Sorry. Coming back to the last question of yours, where you said that Indaba and, about the shooting. The two of them had firearms, they were told to go and shoot there, at the people that were round the fire, the ANC people who were around the fire there. After the shooting, we always meet up and we discussed what basically happened. But there they were to, Indaba mentioned to me that he did shoot. But I can't recall whether Norman, Norman did shoot, because this incident happened some time now. But I know specifically Indaba, because he was, how can I say, he was panting with breath and this, and he insisted, "hey, I gave the ous" ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON You said it was two or three shots. MR RAMDAS Yes, it was two or three shots. Did I hear it or was it on the other side. And in court, Chairperson, in court, Indaba mentioned that he did fire there, in court, in May. CHAIRPERSON In the trial. MR RAMDAS In the trial, that's right. MR MALAN At which occasion is that you're referring to now, that Indaba ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS The same, the same incident. MS LOCKHAT Jesmondene incident. CHAIRPERSON You're saying that during the trial, you, he'd ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS No, no, no. There in this case of ours, the Prosecutor was leading Indaba. Indaba on his own accord spoke of the Jesmondene story. Then the Prosecutor shut him up, let's put it that way, and said, no, we're not talking about this, we're talking about this thing here. But he already admitted that he did some shooting there. MR MALAN Do you have a copy of the transcript on that information? MS LOONAT Mr Malan, it must be somewhere in the judgements. CHAIRPERSON I doubt whether it would be mentioned in the judgements. If somebody during the course of evidence raises an incident that's not relevant to the trial, it would be lost in the record of the proceedings. It wouldn't be raised in the judgement, I'm sure. I'd be most surprised if it was. MR RAMDAS But I'm certain of that, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I know. Ms Lockhat? MR RAMDAS Because I've been reading this. MS LOCKHAT Just one other question regarding to this incident. CHAIRPERSON Which one, Jesmondene still? MS LOCKHAT That's correct, Chairperson. You said that you got information relating to the ANC that they were in that camp. What kind of information were you talking about? MR RAMDAS Just go easy with that one question again? What kind of information? MS LOCKHAT Did you get regarding those seven and eight people that were sitting there. What kind of information did you get from your colleagues, Mr Singh? On the attack, what kind of information did you get from Mr Singh regarding the ... MR RAMDAS From Mr Singh? MS LOCKHAT That's correct. Regarding the attack. MR RAMDAS Yes, that's better. Mr Singh stated to me, Singh said it to me that Mbanjwa and Joe was attacked by the people from the squatter camp, the ANC squatter camp. That's what he had told me about it. That they were attacked with bush knives ... MR MALAN That's Isaac and Joe. MR RAMDAS Isaac and Joe, sorry, Chairperson. MS LOCKHAT I'll move on to the Solomon Dlamini incident. MR RAMDAS Solomon Dlamini. MS LOCKHAT It is correct that he laid a charge of malicious injury to property against Maistry. Is that correct? MR RAMDAS That is correct. MS LOCKHAT And other persons as well. MR RAMDAS Yes, the person is dead now. He is deceased. Constable Boodram, Chairperson. MS LOCKHAT And then Maistry and others were summonsed to appear in court regarding that incident. Is that correct? MR RAMDAS Not Maistry and others. Just Maistry and Constable Boodram. MS LOCKHAT Just Maistry. MR RAMDAS And Boodram. MS LOCKHAT Boodram. MR RAMDAS Boodram, Boodram is now deceased. MS LOCKHAT And, that Solomon Dlamini also instituted criminal proceedings against Mr Singh. Do you know about that as well? MR RAMDAS Solomon Dlamini? MS LOCKHAT That's correct. It's on page 61 of the bundle, Chairperson, at paragraph 6.4. MR RAMDAS Who's this they're talking about? CHAIRPERSON This is an extract from the document, the court documents, your trial documents. MR RAMDAS Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then you see 6.4, "the deceased had, in addition, brought criminal proceedings against Accused No 2". Then if you take a look at page, excuse me, page 52, you'll see that Accused No 2 is Anilraj Singh. MR RAMDAS No, it's not true, Chairperson. No, I don't know that. MS LOCKHAT And I put it to you, Mr Ramdas, that Mr Solomon Dlamini, besides him being part of a march or whatever, that basically he was eliminated because he had all these charges against your colleague. MR RAMDAS No, that's not true, Chairperson. MS LOCKHAT I believe the malicious damage to property amounted to R340. MR RAMDAS I don't know. MS LOCKHAT That was basically the damages relating to that. MR RAMDAS To which Maistry was charged? MS LOCKHAT Yes, to the malicious damage to property. It happened to be his Kombi. MR RAMDAS I didn't, I didn't have a look at the summons or whatever the case. I didn't .... MS LOCKHAT And it just seems sad that someone would be killed because of something like that. A small amount, R340 damage. CHAIRPERSON Except I don't think, I think it was, wasn't it a criminal charge? But it's not so much the R340, but the fact that you might pick up a criminal record or even go to prison. MR RAMDAS No, that's not true. He was killed because of his affiliation ...(indistinct) the police. MS LOCKHAT What happens to a police officer if he has a criminal record? MR RAMDAS If it's a serious offence, he can be suspended, or maybe he can get kicked out if it's murder or anything like that, get kicked out. But if it's one like Maistry, no, they will just have a department, internal enquiry or whatever it is. Find out whether he is fit enough or whatever it is. He can be represented by attorney. MS LOCKHAT MR RAMDAS Can you please just repeat? MS LOCKHAT MR RAMDAS You want the date, you're talking about? MS LOCKHAT Was it before, was it for the specific incident, was it before the specific incident? Can you just give me more or less an idea? MR RAMDAS I'm not too sure, I'll have to just check it out here. Is it, what's she talking about here? The date like when or what's ... JUDGE PILLAY MR RAMDAS Before which incident? I'll give it to you now, Chairperson. MS LOCKHAT MR RAMDAS Yes. MS LOCKHAT So it was basically ... CHAIRPERSON MR RAMDAS Yes. Yes, that's right. The money was given to... CHAIRPERSON Yes to Singh, from Indaba to Singh. MR RAMDAS To Singh, that's right. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you've told us that, but it was prior to the Padayachee incident. MR RAMDAS Padayachee incident, that's right. MS LOCKHAT Did you ask Mr Zuma for money for any of these incidents? MR RAMDAS MS LOCKHAT But surely Mr Singh must also have been aware of this, seeing that you were so closely connected in this hit squad? MR RAMDAS No. MS LOCKHAT MR RAMDAS No, Singh did not know anything about that. Singh only came to know about this thing, when I, after I spoke to him, after I've spoken to Zuma. Zuma stated that he gave the money to Indaba and then when I went to Singh's house, that's the time I asked Singh and he had a broad smile on his face. MS LOCKHAT MR MALAN Just, just before you go that route. Did you not earlier give evidence that you were very upset when you learnt of the money taken from Zuma? You were very, very upset. MR RAMDAS When Singh had distributed the money to, to the ...(intervention) MR MALAN Distributed or received? MR RAMDAS No, no, no. Singh received the money but he gave the other people, that's when I was upset. MR MALAN Didn't he give a thousand to you as well? MR RAMDAS MR MALAN When did you ask Zuma for the money? MR RAMDAS That was some time before he sent the money. MR MALAN How often did you see, on how many occasions did you meet with Zuma? MR RAMDAS On two occasions. I worked in his area, where he resides. I used to work there in Imbali. MR MALAN So you saw him only twice? MR RAMDAS Three times. One the meeting with him, and two after that. MR MALAN Was it not agreed that, what's his name? What, Manda? MR RAMDAS Indaba. MR MALAN Indaba. That Indaba would be the contact person? MR RAMDAS That is correct. MR MALAN So why did you keep contact as well if it was so secret that he didn't want to meet with you? MR RAMDAS MS LOCKHAT Ms Zodwa was also on the list of, on the hit list of Mr Zuma, is that correct? MR RAMDAS Just repeat the name of the person? MS LOCKHAT Zodwa. MR RAMDAS Zodwa. That's right. MS LOCKHAT You said that she was on the hit list because she was going to pass on valuable information. What kind of valuable information? MR RAMDAS This, this information that I received from Skiza Zuma, he was the chief there in this area where she resided, in Harewood, Harewood Location. MS LOCKHAT Was she going to pass information to the ANC? MR RAMDAS Internal secrets or what she know about of the IFP, maybe to Padayachee, the ANC now. MS LOCKHAT Was she a member of the IFP? MR RAMDAS Yes, yes, she was a member of the IFP then. MS LOCKHAT And it also seems strange, Padayachee, they lived close by to you, is that correct? MR RAMDAS Yes, that is correct. He lived about, the road is, it's the same road, but it's very long road. I live in No 16, he lived way, way up there, I think No 60s or in the 50s, that way. But the road is like, sort of divided, another road runs between them, between Culverwell Road. I live in one portion, he lives in the other portion. MS LOCKHAT How did you actually feel when they informed you to kill Mr Padayachee? He was actually, you could apparently say one of your neighbours. How did you feel about that? MR RAMDAS Because of his affiliation with the ANC, I couldn't care if he was my next-door neighbour ...(indistinct) I would have shot him. MS LOCKHAT I'll move on to the Dorega incident. You killed, were involved in the killing of Mr Dorega after he retired. Is that correct? MR RAMDAS That is correct. MS LOCKHAT And you also said that one of the reasons why you wanted to kill him because he was going to pass on information regarding the Police Force, or just information. What kind of, I don't understand that? Just explain that to me. MR RAMDAS You see, he was, he was in the Police Force for some time now. He knew how the Police Force ran. He knew the ins and outs, how many people worked there, what, what firearms they carry. He could have passed all this information on. He knew the ins and outs of the Police Force so he could have passed it to the ANC. Maybe that's how that there our Copesville Police Station was attacked. I don't know that? Maybe he could have passed that information on. Say, listen attack at certain time because only one guard, or whatever. MS LOCKHAT Did you have information that he was doing this or was this just an inference that you concluded, or just, you know? Can you explain that to me? MR RAMDAS You see, the impression I get there, ...(indistinct) had mentioned to me. I see him a number of times on occasions there when he went to the squatters, the squatter camps, the ANC squatter camp. Then I found out his association with Mr Padayachee now, he's also was, his name was on the hit list as well. So there must be some connection or something there. They were all ANC, they all were having the meetings and discussing things like that. JUDGE PILLAY It's purely on that information or those factors that you decided that he should be killed? MR RAMDAS Yes, because the, his political affiliations. JUDGE PILLAY I've heard all the factors. I'm asking is there any other factor that contributed to your making that decision? MR RAMDAS You see, also, at my training at the SWAT Course, we were told by Captain O'Connell that you will find policemen like this and that they will be a danger because by them passing on information, innocent people some time can get killed. MS LOCKHAT I put it to you that it was possible for you to inform other members of the Police Force, higher authorities, regarding Dorega, because of the background relating to that, that you mentioned earlier. And I also put it to you that because of all these, the perjury charge against you, your appeal coming up, that this was actually one or partly the reasons why you actually eliminated him. MR RAMDAS No, that's not true. Because of his political affiliation and that he was a threat to us. MS LOCKHAT I find it very strange. It seems, you know, with all of this against you, don't you think that you would bear a grudge against someone like that? That had all this information regarding you, that there was this perjury charge, don't you think that this would make you angry? MR RAMDAS No. Captain Dorega in fact, he did a good job on my perjury case. And he investigated the case in a professional manner, he not really like sort of went out and said, hey, come here, I want to take a statement. No, a professional manner, he did the case. MS LOCKHAT So, just because of his political affiliations you feel that that was reason enough to actually eliminate him. MR RAMDAS Yes, because of his ANC, he was the ANC and was a threat to us and he could have been passing on information to the other people. That is why he had to be eliminated. MS LOCKHAT Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Lockhat. Do you have any re-examination? MS LOONAT Mr Chairperson, just to clarify one point. My learned colleague was trying to establish that there were two summonses that were issued against either my client or one of the co-accused, I'm not sure. CHAIRPERSON It's not, not against Mr Ramdas, but ... MS LOONAT CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Mr Malan, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant? MR MALAN Chairperson, I don't think anybody has referred the applicant to page 42 of the bundle. It's the statement by Williams, one of the co-accused. If you look at the second paragraph, says he was told by Singh that Sipho Zulu was killed to prevent him from giving evidence against Singh. The last sentence of that paragraph. MR RAMDAS Last sentence. Oh yes, that's right. MR MALAN Then the next paragraph when he deals with Solomon Dlamini, and Maistry, he says that Singh and Maistry informed him that Dlamini had charged Maistry for malicious injury to property of a taxi and that he was a, that he was the driver of. The court case was pending against Maistry and therefore Dlamini was killed because Maistry did not want Dlamini to appear in court to testify against him. You've read that? MR RAMDAS Yes. MR MALAN And then the next one, the murder of Captain Dorega, is "I heard from Ramdas that Dorega was a Station Commander that Ramdas got", this is now on page 43 at the top, "got convicted of perjury and sentenced to one year imprisonment. That was the reason I was told by Ramdas that Captain Dorega was killed. For I have no idea if Captain Dorega belonged to any political party." This is Williams, one of the co-accused. MR RAMDAS No, I did not say that to him, Chairperson. MR MALAN You didn't say that to him? MR RAMDAS No, not to Williams, no. MR MALAN So is he fabricating these stories? MR RAMDAS Where he got that from, where he got that from, I don't know. MR MALAN He's in prison and he made this statement from prison. In East London Prison. MR RAMDAS No, I don't know where he got this. MR MALAN Would he have any reason to give that information? To make that statement? MR RAMDAS He knows about the perjury case, so maybe he presumed that was the reason. That's to save his own skin. CHAIRPERSON He doesn't say, he says that you told him. MR RAMDAS No, I deny that. CHAIRPERSON That's what he says here. MR RAMDAS Yes, I understand. He must be saving his own skin, Chairperson. JUDGE PILLAY It's a fat lot he can do with his own skin now, he's in prison. MR RAMDAS He's going on, he'll be going on parole one of these days. MS LOCKHAT Devon Williams is actually in our midst, Chairperson. Just for the record. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Ms Lockhat. MR RAMDAS He'll be going on parole one of these days. INAUDIBLE MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? JUDGE PILLAY Look's like he's on parole already. In any case, you say ...(inaudible) MR RAMDAS No, no, no. MR MALAN Okay. And then just a last question. If I understood you correctly, you decided at some stage to form this hit squad. MR RAMDAS That's correct. MR MALAN And you decided that in conjunction with Singh. MR RAMDAS That's correct. MR MALAN The two of you jointly talked and decided to set up a hit squad. MR RAMDAS That is correct. MR MALAN You didn't recruit, the one didn't recruit the other. MR RAMDAS No, no, no. I decided, I spoke to him about it. MR MALAN Right. Without any authority and you just set it up. That's your own private hit squad. MR RAMDAS That is correct. MR MALAN And the first that then happened was that the so-called list, or the list that you got from ... MR RAMDAS Skiza Zuma. MR MALAN Skiza Zuma. MR RAMDAS That is correct. MR MALAN And that came out of the blue and you made that your main target. MR RAMDAS No, that, that was, that instruction was come from Zuma, so I carried that one out. I could see that Zuma, he was attacked there, when, as I explained to the Committee earlier. He was, when, when I, when I had the meeting with him. He showed us his bullet-ridden van, he said that he was attacked several times, and that, it's the reason why I said that he will be able to help us. I trusted him now ...(intervention) MR MALAN What I'm pursuing really, what I find difficult to understand, is that you formed this hit squad at some stage independent of Zuma. MR RAMDAS Yes, I did form it, I formed the hit squad. MR MALAN All right. Now, you've decided you're going to kill ANC members. MR RAMDAS That is correct. MR MALAN Or ANC sympathisers, or ANC supporters. MR RAMDAS That is correct. MR MALAN But the first time you act is on a list given to you by Zuma. You don't, you have nobody, or no specific action in mind. That's the first action you took. Is that correct? MR RAMDAS That is the first time, the first action. MR MALAN You also, somewhere in your statement, I think it was Singh in his statement, said that, or was it you, that were you not arrested, you would have killed many other people still. Is that all for your statement or your feeling? Think ...(indistinct). In one of the documents. MR RAMDAS Just coming back, I'll answer this question now. Just coming back to that other one, the last question you spoke about. When Constable Blom was killed, that really sort of started the ball rolling, there when he was killed in front of me. You know, if you watch a video of a person ...(intervention) MR MALAN No, I heard that. And that is part of the background and the reason for forming the hit squad. But once you've decided on the hit squad, you seek no target, the first target arrives, so to speak, by courtesy of Zuma. MR RAMDAS We, we said no, we'll, when we had the first meeting at Anil's house, at Singh's house, there they ...(indistinct) I think it's Nkono that suggested that he's got two civilian friends that will also join in this thing. Then also mention, made mention of Skiza Zuma, who's a chief and that he will be able to assist us with firearms and what have you. MR MALAN And with targets. MR RAMDAS With targets and what have you. MR MALAN No, but you had no target in mind, you had no individual or any action in mind to implement, following up on the decision to form a hit squad that would ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS No, I had no targets. MR MALAN You had no targets? MR RAMDAS No, nothing, nothing. MR MALAN Thank you, Chair. CHAIRPERSON Judge Pillay, any questions? JUDGE PILLAY Tell me, you found out that Constable Blom ... MR RAMDAS That's correct. JUDGE PILLAY Was killed. When did you find out that he was in fact killed by other policemen? MR RAMDAS No. Blom wasn't killed by other policemen. JUDGE PILLAY Did I misunderstand you? MR RAMDAS We were in the police van. It was Constable Singh, myself and Roger Peters, we were driving in the police van, normal duties. We heard over the radio, Constable Ali says, listen, we've been attacked. But he was frightened and we tried to get hold, tried to find out what happened. JUDGE PILLAY Okay. MR RAMDAS Eventually we found ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Can I just stop you there. All I want to know is do you know who, in fact, killed Constable Blom? MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY Who? MR RAMDAS It was MK soldiers. They were arrested in Eastridge, in a flat, we surrounded the flat. They'd firearms we seized were in the flat and the firearm that shot Blom was a firearm from a policeman that was in Pinetown. JUDGE PILLAY When did, when did you find that out? MR RAMDAS That same night. On radio control, we put the firearm into the computer ... JUDGE PILLAY What year? What year? MR RAMDAS I don't know. No, I don't know what year. JUDGE PILLAY Was it before you started this escapade or not? MR RAMDAS Was the incident happened before? Yes. Before this. JUDGE PILLAY Before you went on course? MR RAMDAS No, after course. After course, it was some time between these ... JUDGE PILLAY What standard, did you go to school? MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY What standard did you pass? MR RAMDAS Matric. JUDGE PILLAY When was that? MR RAMDAS It was, it was a long time ago, I don't even know. JUDGE PILLAY No. MR RAMDAS I've been ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON When did you join the police? MR RAMDAS I've been in prison six years, so basically that's what ... JUDGE PILLAY You see why I'm asking ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Twenty-four years ago, so it's 1975 plus minus... MR RAMDAS Yes, that's right. CHAIRPERSON That you matriculated. MR RAMDAS No, I've written my police matric. CHAIRPERSON Your police matric? MR RAMDAS That's right. The police exam. CHAIRPERSON Oh. MR RAMDAS I mean, I call it the police matric because once in the Police Force you write your matric. CHAIRPERSON Oh. MR RAMDAS So it's just a normal matric, but I call it the police matric. JUDGE PILLAY Why I'm asking these questions, I want to understand how you were thinking at the time. One of the issues that really upset you politically, was when the old flag was spat on and torn and urinated on. MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY Why did you get so upset? MR RAMDAS We served under this flag. This government, the National Party, they pay me this job and if a policeman dies, they take the same flag and cover your coffin with it. And that is given to your widow. JUDGE PILLAY That, that flag represented apartheid. Were you comfortable with it? MR RAMDAS Can you just please repeat? JUDGE PILLAY It represented apartheid. Were you comfortable with that? MR RAMDAS At that time I was being paid by the government so I was comfortable with that. JUDGE PILLAY Yes. You were comfortable with apartheid? MR RAMDAS Not apartheid. JUDGE PILLAY Well that's what I'm asking you, were you comfortable with apartheid? Were you happy about apartheid? MR RAMDAS I'm trying to ... JUDGE PILLAY What did you think about apartheid? MR RAMDAS What did I think about it? JUDGE PILLAY Yes. MR RAMDAS At that time I had no really affiliation or I didn't, I didn't want to take sides and what have you. JUDGE PILLAY Come, Mr Ramdas, you took political sides. MR RAMDAS No, I'm talking about that time when I joined the Police Force. JUDGE PILLAY The time you got irritated ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS Seventies, that's when ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY The time. Yes, okay. Now let's, listen to me now. I don't know, maybe you don't understand the question. When you got irritated by these people who were urinating on the flag, you got very upset. At that time, what did you think of apartheid and the policy? MR MALAN Have you been, have you been writing words down for your client there? What is happening there? INAUDIBLE ANSWER MR MALAN Well, then make it clear so we know what's happening. Please don't write notes for your client. JUDGE PILLAY Don't you understand the concept of apartheid? MR RAMDAS No, no. You see, you asked me something now. I'm not too sure whether you're referring to when I joined the Police Force, how I felt at that time, or whether ... JUDGE PILLAY Okay, now listen, listen to me now. You know that day when that flag was spat on. MR RAMDAS On the 2nd March you talking about. JUDGE PILLAY Whatever date it was. MR RAMDAS Okay. JUDGE PILLAY You were already in the Police Force. MR RAMDAS That is correct. That is correct, right. JUDGE PILLAY You got very irritated by what was happening there, to this flag. MR RAMDAS That is correct. JUDGE PILLAY Now, at that time, I'm asking you what you felt about apartheid. Did you respect it? Or did you, were you disgusted with it? What is the position? MR RAMDAS There, when the flag was burnt, that incident there, and I'll come to your question now, when the flag was burnt and whatever. I was loyal to the Police Force, to the government that was paying me, I was loyal to them. JUDGE PILLAY What did you feel about apartheid? You didn't mind it? MR RAMDAS You see, the apartheid story, I can't ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY This flag represented apartheid. No matter what political affiliation you had, that was something that was common to everybody. It represented a divide and rule policy. I'm wanting to know, I'm trying to understand what you thought of the flag. I'm trying to understand your views of life at the time. Did you support apartheid? MR RAMDAS I felt, yes. JUDGE PILLAY And did you, at any time, during your activities relevant to your application, ever try to find out the policies of the ANC? MR RAMDAS From who are you talking about? Policies from... JUDGE PILLAY Anywhere. I think the Police Force were the private custodians of all those documents. MR RAMDAS From courses they informed how the ANC ... JUDGE PILLAY No, did you yourself try to find out? MR RAMDAS Yes, I've seen it on TV ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think what Judge Pillay is asking you is, were you aware of or did you take any steps yourself to find out what the policies of the ANC were? Not what the people on the ground or what you were told by other policemen, but what the policies, the Freedom Charter, etc, etc. MR RAMDAS Me, myself? CHAIRPERSON Yes, did you make effort yourself to ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS I made a few enquiries, but I didn't come up with much. JUDGE PILLAY You see, why I ask that question is that, and I speak for myself, that these decisions in all your cases, all your applications, seem to have been made on very flimsy information. Even your former captain. He was killed because you thought he may give information to your enemy. MR RAMDAS You see, when he was, when he took the two blacks from the squatter camps there, when he associated himself with Mr Padayachee, they all were ANC. JUDGE PILLAY Well, I want, I want to ask you why you did not make any effort in any of the incidents to verify what you had been told. Before you killed anybody. MR RAMDAS I did my, before they were killed, I made my enquiries, I did all my research, found that they ANC. JUDGE PILLAY What did you do with your former captain? Dorega? MR RAMDAS Who Dorega? JUDGE PILLAY You told us today ... MR RAMDAS Yes, I did do enquiries. JUDGE PILLAY That the reason, the prime reason he got killed was that he was a possible threat to the State, because he was possibly in a position to give them information as to how police stations work. MR RAMDAS Yes, that was true. JUDGE PILLAY Now I'm suggesting to you that's flimsy to make a decision on that and take a man's life. It doesn't, it doesn't balance. MR RAMDAS You see, when we raided the squatter camps and what have you, when we found suspects with the firearms, what have you, he would, you could see a firearm, a home-made firearm, that, a firearm that can be capable of firing a round, he would tell me, no, this firearm can't be capable of killing. And yet if you try the firearm you will it will work. And then he tells me, no, he don't want to see this. So I knew you can see he's siding with these people. He doesn't want to charge them. And he asks us not to even raid the squatter camp. JUDGE PILLAY Did I understand you correctly that on at least one of your trips, to commit one of these crimes, you people made use of a casspir vehicle? MR RAMDAS Casspir vehicle? JUDGE PILLAY Yes. A State vehicle known as a casspir. One, one of them. MR RAMDAS I only used the vehicle, the casspir vehicle to go to Zuma's house for the meeting. JUDGE PILLAY You took a casspir to go there? MR RAMDAS No. The casspir, I patrolled with the vehicle. I patrolled with the vehicle, that's the vehicle that we patrolled the areas. JUDGE PILLAY I see, I see. So there's a ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS I work, I work at Gun City, that's Imbali, Gun City, that's the ANC area there. So from there now we're going to someone's house. I can't go back to the police station, get another vehicle and go, I used the same vehicle, and just proceeding out there. JUDGE PILLAY Now, all people, and you were asked this question before and you evaded it because you said you're going to answer it later. You say anybody linked even to the ANC was your enemy at the time. MR RAMDAS Or anybody further the cause. JUDGE PILLAY Yes. And Dorega he was one of them and met his death because of that. MR RAMDAS Yes. He was furthering the cause of the ANC. JUDGE PILLAY What about Harry Gwala? Why didn't you try to assassinate him? MR RAMDAS I thought about that. JUDGE PILLAY Is it? Well, why didn't you make an attempt? MR RAMDAS No, ...(indistinct) he had died when this ... JUDGE PILLAY Or anybody else? MR RAMDAS You see, when you're working in our area, I was trying to look after our area. We were trying to make Pietermaritzburg the IFP stronghold. JUDGE PILLAY I see. MR RAMDAS So I maybe concentrated in this province here. JUDGE PILLAY Was there no other leader? MR RAMDAS No, no. JUDGE PILLAY What about Mr Radebe? MR RAMDAS No, I didn't ... JUDGE PILLAY He comes to Natal. He was high in the ANC ranks. MR RAMDAS No, I didn't ... JUDGE PILLAY You didn't think of that? MR RAMDAS No. MR MALAN Did you not on the, sorry, Judge Pillay, did you not have almost on a daily basis at that stage have members of the, representatives of the different groups coming to the Police Office and complaining about police action? Is it not so that a large number of ANC members, leaders, came to the police station on virtually a daily basis? MR RAMDAS No, they don't come to the police station. MR MALAN Yes, to the police station. For talks, for discussion, to talk to the police about how they should conduct themselves and hot-spot areas. MR RAMDAS No. We used to get people from the community coming there and say they've got problems here, this and that, but not leaders as such, the way you're talking about. MR MALAN I'm not talking about top leaders, I'm talking about local branch members and chairpersons. MR RAMDAS That was being, that was being handled by the Station Commander and the other officers. I was outside. MR MALAN Yes. But you would have seen them coming to the Station Commander to talk to him. MR RAMDAS No, I wouldn't have seen them. You see, when I book on duty, I take the vehicle and I'm outside. I don't come back to the police station till I knock off work. MR MALAN Are you telling me all the time at the station, in Uniform Branch, you never saw any of the Party representatives coming to talk to the Station Commander? MR RAMDAS No, I didn't see them. JUDGE PILLAY Tell me, did you never hear, during the period you were busy with these activities, of allegations of police complicity with black on black violence? MR RAMDAS Police complicity on black on black violence? JUDGE PILLAY Yes, where they accused the police of being the third force. MR RAMDAS Yes, I heard that on TV. JUDGE PILLAY And, and, did you not then think it necessary to review your situation? MR RAMDAS No, I was fighting for the cause. I didn't really... JUDGE PILLAY You didn't want to change. Is that not so? MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY This group there sitting at the fire, who were shot at. Who shot at them? MR RAMDAS From what I know, Constable Indaba. The two of them had firearms, Nkono and Indaba. JUDGE PILLAY Did you know them? MR RAMDAS I beg your pardon? JUDGE PILLAY Did you know them? MR RAMDAS The people from the squatter camp? JUDGE PILLAY No, Indaba and Nkono. MR RAMDAS Yes, I know them. JUDGE PILLAY Very well? MR RAMDAS Not, yes, I know them very well. They worked under me. JUDGE PILLAY Did you know what their capabilities were of using firearms? MR RAMDAS Yes, they were trained with firearms. JUDGE PILLAY Trained? MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY I can't remember what you pointed out, but what was the distance between from where they shot ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON Approximately 15 paces from where the witness is, to the interpreter's box. MR RAMDAS It was dark when they fired the shots. JUDGE PILLAY No, but with the fire, the targets would have been lit up by the fire, isn't it? MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY Would you have been surprised knowing what their abilities were that they would have missed anybody sitting around the fire? MR RAMDAS When they all scattered ... JUDGE PILLAY Yes, they all scattered. But I mean at least the first shot would have hit somebody. MR RAMDAS Yes, I presume that they were hit. JUDGE PILLAY Yes. And you'd be surprised that if none of those shots hit the target, isn't it? MR RAMDAS Yes, I would have been surprised. JUDGE PILLAY Now, tell me, did you own a taxi? MR RAMDAS No. JUDGE PILLAY No? MR RAMDAS No. JUDGE PILLAY Did anyone of your group, was anyone taxi owners? MR RAMDAS No. No, none of them. JUDGE PILLAY Perjury in the Police Force is a offence that could lead or likely to lead to a discharge. Not so? MR RAMDAS If I'm convicted, if I serve a term of imprisonment. Yes, I will be discharged. JUDGE PILLAY Yes. Because policemen can't be trusted if they commit perjury. MR RAMDAS That is correct. JUDGE PILLAY So you were at risk when you were charged and convicted of perjury, you were at risk of losing your job. Not so? MR RAMDAS I wasn't at risk there. JUDGE PILLAY Why? MR RAMDAS I knew I will win my case, because, because the case was, the case happened in '88 when the incident happened. Two years after that I testified. I was State witness. I made a statement in 1988. JUDGE PILLAY I know that, Mr Ramdas. MR RAMDAS 1990, I was not given a statement, so whatever I could recall, I spoke about that in court. JUDGE PILLAY I know. MR RAMDAS That's why I was charged. JUDGE PILLAY But while you were a convicted perjurer, you knew that there was a risk of you losing your job. MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY But during this period also of your activities, you must have known of the Codesa process? Not so? MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY And IFP was party to it, isn't it? MR RAMDAS Yes. JUDGE PILLAY Now why then did you continue with all these crimes instead of reviewing your situation? That was a wonderful attempt to rectify the problems in this country, with the least amount of problems. Why then did you continue fuelling all these problems? MR RAMDAS No, I felt at that stage that I must continue, because these people were a threat to us and that these talks, they just talk now and tomorrow they do something else. JUDGE PILLAY Is that what you thought? MR RAMDAS Yes. That's what I ... JUDGE PILLAY Even the IFP? MR RAMDAS No, me as an individual, myself. JUDGE PILLAY No. Why didn't you go to the members of the IFP hierarchy and say, look, are you people serious or must I continue with what I am doing? MR RAMDAS No, the IFP, they didn't know about the hit squad what I had. I didn't go to them. JUDGE PILLAY Who was Zuma then? According to your evidence, didn't you consult with Zuma? MR RAMDAS Zuma, yes. But what I'm saying ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY He was a high-ranking official, isn't it? MR RAMDAS Yes. But he supplied me the names, so I knew that if the man has supplied me with names, I must go to him. If he told me, hey, whoa, stop, then I would've stopped. Then he, because he's, he's the high, he's the big boy there in the IFP, he ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY No, why I'm asking, why didn't you go to him and say, look here, now look here they're talking at Codesa. Don't you think we should review our position? MR RAMDAS No, I didn't go to him. JUDGE PILLAY One last issue. You've made this application now and there's been a number of victims and families. What do you feel towards them now? MR RAMDAS I've got this empty feeling in me, like I know what it's like what they are going through. That they lost their loved ones, but it was my, through my actions, they lost their loved ones. My wife passed away in February last year, while I was in prison. I know what it's like to lose somebody. Okay, but their circumstances was different. I know my children are suffering now. I know that their children also are suffering and they going through a hard time. Same like what I'm going through, because I know. It's something that, it was wrong at that time. But, the feeling is hard to explain, it's, it's something that, hey. When you lose your loved one, it's something that's, it's bad. JUDGE PILLAY Are you prepared to make peace with them? MR RAMDAS Yes, I'm prepared to make peace with them. JUDGE PILLAY Even if you, if your application is unsuccessful? MR RAMDAS Yes, I'm prepared to make peace with them. JUDGE PILLAY What are you prepared to do about it? MR RAMDAS With me and my children and everybody, and even if I can go to schools and even other people and talk to them and tell them, now listen here, this talks, I mean, this fighting with different political parties and what have you. And I'll even educate my children too as well. Tell them, no don't, listen do ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY I'm talking about the people of the victims? MR RAMDAS Of the victims' families. JUDGE PILLAY Yes. MR RAMDAS If I get released or ...(intervention) JUDGE PILLAY Even if you don't get released, are you prepared to reconcile with them? MR RAMDAS Yes, I am. JUDGE PILLAY What are you prepared to do about them? MR RAMDAS Well, at the prison, I, if I can approach them and ask them for forgiveness and what have you. JUDGE PILLAY Are you comfortable with doing that? MR RAMDAS Yes, I am. Because I know what it's like to lose a loved one. JUDGE PILLAY And should the same situation arise, are you, will you do what you did then? MR RAMDAS I will still continue with supporting my people, but I won't start killing the people. JUDGE PILLAY Okay. CHAIRPERSON MR RAMDAS The police took it away. Some of it were destroyed. After Dorega's incident, I went to Singh's house, the same morning, I heard of Singh being arrested, the same morning on the 22nd or 23rd it was. Singh's wife told me that the police had picked up Constable Singh. I realised that the police is now is into this matter here. The two firearms, I'd given them back to Indaba, Indaba was at the house. I give it back to him and ...(indistinct) must give it back to Skiza Zuma or where he got it from. The telescopes and the, the things, the police took all those the rest of, the barrel as well, too as well. They got everything. CHAIRPERSON Now, did you really believe that you and your hit squad could change the political scenery in Maritzburg? MR RAMDAS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did you really believe that? MR RAMDAS Yes. By shooting the people at random here and there, making them change their political beliefs or saying, you know. CHAIRPERSON Ms Loonat, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel? MS LOONAT Mr Chair, Mr Chairperson, I don't know if I should expand, but as you can see my learned friend is very stressed and doesn't know quite how to express himself, other than trying to explain his deep remorse which he has explained to me. I can't go further than that ... CHAIRPERSON It's not a requirement for the amnesty, you know, it's not one of the requirements required. But we'll accept that he feels remorse. MS LOONAT And just for my own records, my client said he did a police matric. I'm not sure, does that mean he's done a normal matric and then a police matric, or ... CHAIRPERSON Sorry, you can ask him. Did you go to school until Std 10. MR RAMDAS No, Std 8. CHAIRPERSON Std 8. MR RAMDAS Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then you joined the police. MR RAMDAS Yes. CHAIRPERSON And then did you do night school sort of stuff? MR RAMDAS Yes, that's right. CHAIRPERSON And then you got a matric? MR RAMDAS And then I got a matric. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR MALAN Did you pass Std 8 at school? MR RAMDAS Yes, I passed Std 8. CHAIRPERSON Ms Jaleel, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel? FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS JALEEL Just one question. Sir, you maintained that if Zuma had told you to stop the killing, you would have stopped. But as already pointed out, you had actually formed this hit squad before getting, or allegedly getting Zuma into your allegiance and getting a list from him. Would you have really stopped? MR RAMDAS Yes. Yes, I would have stopped. MS JALEEL So, had you not thought about what you were doing prior to you forming this hit squad? MR RAMDAS I thought about it. On all that I was taught, everything on the courses, everything. And that's how I formed the hit squad. MS JALEEL But then there's a contradiction there. Because you said you were waiting for somebody else to tell you to stop doing it, the person being Zuma. MR RAMDAS No, he didn't tell me to stop. He didn't tell me to stop. He just, he kept on sending me names. And I thought it was okay to carry on. MS JALEEL Okay. If I can rephrase. You formed this hit squad even before you came to know of Zuma. Correct? MR RAMDAS Yes. MS JALEEL Right. So you, you didn't realise he was going to help you. You had this picture in your mind where you were going to rid yourself of ANC members and you were going to go and do it on your own strength. Correct? MR RAMDAS That is correct. MS JALEEL Did, did Indaba bring Zuma to you directly after, or a few days after, was it a month after, a year after you had formed the hit squad that you came to know Zuma? MR RAMDAS The hit, we spoke about the hit squad that I was going to form there at Singh's house. Whilst at the meeting, the specials that's Norman Nkono and the others, made mention of Zuma and they said that he will assist me with this hit squad sort of, like supplying firearms and what have you, and of possible targets. MS JALEEL Okay. So his name came up at initiation, which he denies, having any knowledge of it. MR RAMDAS Yes, his name came up at that stage. MS JALEEL Sir, with regards to the flag issue, you take that very personally, and you said that it angered to a great deal, and that's why you went out and did these things. It somehow ties up with the fact that how did you feel when you knew policemen, including yourselves, like yourselves, your members of the hit squad were all policemen. How did you feel when you knew that they were killing people? Did your flag, I mean I know it was the apartheid era, but did you feel that killing was right, given the position that you were in? Did you think that you were totally justified in doing what you were doing? MR RAMDAS Yes. I served under the flag there. I was loyal to this, to the NP government that was paying me, and I felt it was right. MS JALEEL Sir, you also indicated that you sassed out your victims, the people that you murdered. You made sure that they were ANC members and things like that. MR RAMDAS That's correct. MS JALEEL With people like Solomon Dlamini, you've had incidences there. Mr Padayachee, you worked on information that you knew, did you have anything yourself, how exactly did you go about investigating him and seeing whether he was actually politically inclined? MR RAMDAS I did, I did observation duties on him. Watch what they were doing, who they were talking to, check if they were going for any meetings or whatever it is. That's how I did my ... MS JALEEL Did you see him going to meetings, talking to strange people whom you knew or didn't know? MR RAMDAS Like Captain Dorega and the people from Swapo camp, from the ANC squatter, Swapo camps. I mean they all came to his house. That's how I knew that they all were ANC. MS JALEEL Petrus Zulu? How did you keep tabs on him? MR RAMDAS I'd ...(intervention) MS JALEEL Sorry, that's, Petrus Zulu was the first person killed. Sorry. Sipho Zulu? MR RAMDAS They were coming from the march ...(intervention) MS JALEEL No, Sipho, sorry. MR RAMDAS They were coming from the march at Wardley Stadium. And we were escorting the busses too. And they were staying at the ANC squatter camp. MS JALEEL We know that, sir. I'm talking about Sipho Zulu. I'm sorry, Sipho Zulu. MR RAMDAS Yes, Sipho Zulu. MS JALEEL He was not killed on that particular day. Did you, did you figure out that he was ANC? He was alive for a while after Petrus Zulu had died, how did you figure that one out? MR RAMDAS He was at the Northdale Hospital when I went there to go and place the guards there. That's where he told me that I must tell Singh about this, as I explained to you, that Singh is a dog and all that, and he's going to shoot Singh, and that we are all dogs, people that serve under this thing. If he can't get one of us, he's going to get Singh. And he also made mention of the speech that Harry Gwala made. He made mention to me that, of the armed struggle. So I knew when he attacked Singh, I knew what he was talking about. MS JALEEL Was this man seriously injured at the time when he was at hospital? Was he receiving ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS No, he was shot in his arm here. I think it was, yes, I think he was shot in his arm. MS JALEEL So from that speech, you picked up that he was an ardent ANC follower? MR RAMDAS Yes. MS JALEEL Mr Dorega, same then, you never took it up to any higher authorities. All you did was watch the man's behaviour, not even getting anything substantial, but you just assumed, okay, the man is ANC ...(intervention) MR RAMDAS I never assumed it. MS JALEEL You just looked at the few things that he did. MR RAMDAS I never assumed. Made sure, did my homework. CHAIRPERSON Was it at that time the ANC was an unbanned, it was unbanned, so to be a member of the ANC, people didn't have to be secretive about it. In fact, hundreds of thousands, millions of people were members of the ANC. MR RAMDAS ANC, that's right. CHAIRPERSON And, and were not keeping a secret about it. MR RAMDAS About it. That's right, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But you still wanted to hunt out particular people, confirm they were ANC and kill them. MR RAMDAS Yes, Chairperson. MS JALEEL No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS JALEEL CHAIRPERSON Ms Lockhat? MS LOCKHAT No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Ramdas, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. MR RAMDAS Thank you, Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED