amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-18 PRETORIA 2 MUKOSI GILBERT MULAUDZI AM1194/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53470&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99061415_pre_990615pr.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning everybody. Today we will be starting with the application of Messrs Mulaudzi and Ndlovu. Before we start, I would just like to introduce the panel to you. On my right is Adv Leah Gcabashe, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee and she is an Advocate from Johannesburg. On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, he is also a member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an Attorney from Pietermaritzburg and I am Selwin Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of that Court. I would like Mr Fourie please to place himself on record and Ms Mtanga. MR FOURIE Thank you Mr Chairperson. I am J.G. Fourie from De Wet & Fourie Attorneys in Pretoria, I am representing both the applicants in this matter, Mr Mulaudzi as well as Mr Ndlovu, thank you. MS MTANGA Thank you Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Truth Commission. CHAIRPERSON To benefit from the interpretation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices, they are available from the Sound Technician and if you want one, you can please go and get one, thank you. Mr Fourie? MR FOURIE Thank you Mr Chairperson. Maybe I can just put on record at this stage, there may be a language problem, I believe that it has already been brought under your attention, these people are Tshangaan speaking, but they will try to follow the proceedings. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we have been told that the applicants are Tsonga or Tshangaan speaking and the interpretation is in fact in Northern Sotho. If there is any difficulty, the applicants are requested to raise it immediately, because we obviously want to get a correct translation of what they are saying. MR FOURIE Thank you Mr Chairperson. I call then Gilbert Mulaudzi as the first applicant. MUKOSI GILBERT MULAUDZI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Fourie? EXAMINATION BY MR FOURIE Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mulaudzi, how old are you now? MR MULAUDZI I am 30 years old. MR FOURIE And during the period in which this crime was committed, this was in October 1993, you resided at Malamolela Village or street in Gazankula, is that correct? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. MR FOURIE At that stage you were still a scholar and you were 23 years of age, is that correct? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. MR FOURIE During that time, in October 1993, you were a member of the ANC at that stage, is that correct? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. MR FOURIE Since when were you resided or did you live in this area, in this Malamolela area? MR MULAUDZI I started to live there in 1978. MR FOURIE Up until your arrest? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. MR FOURIE Can you tell us more about the area itself, was it a violent area, was there any violence or was it a peaceful area? CHAIRPERSON This is during 1993? MR FOURIE 1993, that is correct Mr Chairperson. MR MULAUDZI Yes, the area was having political violence, but not that much. MR FOURIE Against whom was this political violence that you are talking about, or between whom? MR MULAUDZI At that time the violence was between the ANC and the IFP. MR FOURIE Was that now in the area in which you resided? MR MULAUDZI In actual fact in Malamolela there was no violence at that time. MR FOURIE Did you know anything about any violence in any other areas between the ANC, the IFP and the Police and so forth? MR MULAUDZI Yes, there were in Katlehong. MR FOURIE What kind of violence was in Katlehong that you were aware of during that stage? MR MULAUDZI My Commander, that is Mr Nkuna, informed me that there is killing between IFP and ANC members. CHAIRPERSON When you say your Commander, your Commander of what? Why was he your Commander, in what respect was he your Commander? MR MULAUDZI Mr Nkuna was my Commander because he was giving me orders to execute. CHAIRPERSON Were you a member of MK, Umkhonto weSizwe? MR MULAUDZI I was the member of the ANC and Mr Nkuna gave me in-house training. CHAIRPERSON Was Mr Nkuna, I take it, also an ANC member? MR MULAUDZI He was a member of MK. MR FOURIE Was Mr Nkuna a respectful person in your area? MR MULAUDZI Yes, he was respected. MR FOURIE At a certain stage Mr Nkuna told you to go to Mozambique, is that correct? MR MULAUDZI Yes, that is correct. MR FOURIE When was that when he told you? MR MULAUDZI That was in 1993, September. MR FOURIE Can you remember the exact date or can't you? MR MULAUDZI I don't remember the actual date when he came to inform me, but I know the date when I departed to Mozambique. MR FOURIE Did he say as to why you must go to Mozambique? MR MULAUDZI Yes, he did. MR FOURIE What was the reason, what did he tell you, why must you go to Mozambique? MR MULAUDZI He said I should go to Mozambique to meet Joseph Khosa in Mapayi to collect guns or firearms. MR FOURIE Did he say what kind of firearms? MR MULAUDZI No, he did not tell me what kind of firearms should I go and collect. MR FOURIE Did he tell you as to when you must go? MR MULAUDZI He did not give me a particular date, but I decided my own date, which was suitable. MR FOURIE When was that? MR MULAUDZI That was on the 29th of September 1993. MR FOURIE This Mr Khosa that you told us about, exactly where in Mozambique did he stay or where did he reside? MR MULAUDZI He was staying in Mapayi Village. MR FOURIE How did you know as to how to get there, to his place? MR MULAUDZI I went there initially in January and then I went together with Mr Nkuna. MR FOURIE So you first of all went for the first time with Mr Nkuna in January 1993 and then afterwards now, for the application, which you applied for? This was the second time that you would have gone to Mozambique, is that so? MR MULAUDZI Yes, that is correct. MR FOURIE What did you and Mr Nkuna on the first occasion, in January 1993, what did you go to do in Mozambique? MR MULAUDZI The time when I was with Mr Nkuna in January, we brought two firearms. MR FOURIE What kind of firearms? MR MULAUDZI AK47's. MR FOURIE And what did he do with those firearms? MR MULAUDZI When we arrived home, he left them to Katlehong. MR FOURIE Did he tell you as to what the intention was for the firearms what you must fetch in Mozambique on this occasion? MR MULAUDZI He told me that he was going to take them to Katlehong. MR FOURIE To do what with? MR MULAUDZI To protect the community there. MR FOURIE Is that now the ANC community? MR MULAUDZI Yes, that is correct. MR FOURIE What route did you follow to get to your destination in Mozambique? MR MULAUDZI I crossed the border at Kruger National Park. MR FOURIE How far was the Kruger National Park from your Village? MR MULAUDZI Approximately one and a half kilometres. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mulaudzi, were you then going to walk to Mozambique through the National Park, the Kruger National Park? MR MULAUDZI Yes, that is correct, I was going on foot. MR FOURIE Was there any other way that you could follow, any other route except for going through the Kruger National Park? MR MULAUDZI There is no other route because that is the only road Mr Nkuna showed me the first time. MR FOURIE Did you arrive safe at your destination in Mozambique without any incidents on the way to Mozambique? MR MULAUDZI Yes. MR FOURIE When you arrived there in Mozambique, did you find Mr Khosa there? MR MULAUDZI Yes, I did. MR FOURIE And was there any firearms handed over to you? MR MULAUDZI He gave me one firearm. MR FOURIE What kind of firearm did he give to you? MR MULAUDZI An AK47. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Mulaudzi, when you walked, how long did it take you to walk across the Kruger Park? MR MULAUDZI I travelled for five days. CHAIRPERSON Were you in the company of anybody? MR MULAUDZI I was together with a second person. CHAIRPERSON Who were you with? MR MULAUDZI Morris Hlupheka Ndlovu. CHAIRPERSON When you walked across to get to Mr Khosa, were you armed with any firearm? MR MULAUDZI We were not armed. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Fourie. MR FOURIE How was this other person that was with you, known to you? MR MULAUDZI I was staying with him in the same Village. MR FOURIE How did it come that he went with you? MR MULAUDZI He is also a member of the ANC. MR FOURIE Did you approach him or did Mr Khosa approach him? CHAIRPERSON You mean Mr Nkuna? MR FOURIE I apologise, yes, Mr Nkuna Mr Chairperson. MR MULAUDZI I requested Mr Ndlovu to accompany me. MR FOURIE How long did you stay in Mozambique for? MR MULAUDZI We stayed approximately three days. MR FOURIE Did you then return to the RSA again? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. MR FOURIE Who came with you back to the RSA? Was it only the two of you or was there anybody else? MR MULAUDZI We came with Vincent Mhlazi. MR FOURIE Who was that now? MR MULAUDZI He is a person from Mozambique. MR FOURIE What was his intention, why did he come to the RSA? MR MULAUDZI He requested that he should return with us so that he would be able to get employment. MR FOURIE So when you got back to the RSA, were you only - did you only have that one firearm with you, that AK47? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. MR FOURIE Did you follow the same route back to the RSA? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Fourie, that AK47, did it have ammunition with it? MR MULAUDZI Yes, we had - there were some ammunitions inside and then we had separate ammunition. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR FOURIE Do you know how many rounds of ammunition there was in that firearm? MR MULAUDZI It had 30 ammunition in the magazine, but all in all we had 56 rounds of ammunition. MR FOURIE Where did you get the rest of the ammunition? MR MULAUDZI We were given by Joseph Khosa in Mozambique. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, I keep interrupting, when you got this firearm from Mr Khosa, did you have to pay him any money for it or did he just give it to you? MR MULAUDZI We did not pay, he just gave it to us free. MR FOURIE On your way back to the RSA, whilst you were walking you crossed the Kruger National Park again, is that so? MR MULAUDZI Yes, that is correct. MR FOURIE And then you met game rangers and which were employed by the Kruger National Park, is that correct? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. MR FOURIE How many of them did you meet? MR MULAUDZI I saw two rangers, but Morris, he saw the third one. MR FOURIE Is Morris now the second applicant that is sitting here? MR MULAUDZI Yes, that is correct. MR FOURIE How did it come that you met them? MR MULAUDZI They were near the reservoir, then one of them approached us running with, armed with an R1 rifle. Then I requested him to drop the gun on the ground, then I asked Morris to move forward. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, were you yourself in possession of the AK47 at that time? MR MULAUDZI Yes, that is correct. MR FOURIE So only one of the rangers approached you at that stage with his R1 rifle, is that correct? MR MULAUDZI Yes, that is correct. MR FOURIE Where was the other one? MR MULAUDZI There was a trench where they were hiding. MR FOURIE How far was that from you? MR MULAUDZI Approximately 20 metres. MR FOURIE Was he armed as well, or don't you know? MR MULAUDZI Yes, he was armed. MR FOURIE So after this ranger dropped his firearm, who picked it up? MR MULAUDZI Yes, I took it up. MR FOURIE And what did you do with it? MR MULAUDZI I took my AK47, I gave it to Morris and then I took the R1 rifle. MR FOURIE What did you do then? MR MULAUDZI We went together with the game ranger up to the border. MR FOURIE What happened to the other one, where was he now? MR MULAUDZI He ran away. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Mulaudzi, when you say you went with the game ranger to the border, to you mean to the boundary of the Kruger National Park, not the Mozambique border? MR MULAUDZI We went with the ranger from Kruger National Park to the South African border, into South Africa. CHAIRPERSON Yes, because the Kruger National Park is in fact in South Africa, if you are in the Kruger National Park, you are in South Africa, so that is why I am saying you went from where you were to the fence, the Kruger National Park fence, is that correct? MR MULAUDZI We went outside Kruger National Park to the border between South Africa, that is between the Mabiliqe Village and Kruger National Park. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. Sorry, and how far did you have to go with the ranger to that what you call the border? MR MULAUDZI Approximately 400 to 500 metres. MR FOURIE Why did you take him with, the ranger now, why did you take him with you? MR MULAUDZI I was afraid that if we can leave him behind, he will go and fetch another firearm. MR FOURIE Then when you got to the border of this Kruger National Park, or to the end, the fence of the Kruger National Park, what did you do then? MR MULAUDZI I informed the ranger to go back to Kruger National Park. MR FOURIE And what did you do then, where did you go then? MR MULAUDZI We hid those firearms in the veld then we went to the township in Mabiliqe. MR FOURIE This veld that you are talking about, how far was this now away from you? INTERPRETER May you please repeat your question. MR FOURIE How far was this veld that you talk about, from your home, from the place where you stayed? MR MULAUDZI Approximately 300 metres if I am not mistaken. MR FOURIE Why did you hide it there? MR MULAUDZI We did not want people to see those firearms. MR FOURIE Approximately what time of the day or night did you return to your Village? MR MULAUDZI It was around six o'clock in the afternoon. MR FOURIE Was it already dark or could you still see, was it still light, the situation, the light situation? MR MULAUDZI It was at dusk so we were able to see. CHAIRPERSON Just before you proceed, Mr Mulaudzi, that game ranger or any of the game rangers, did anyone get injured at all or hurt in the incident in which you got the R1 rifle? MR MULAUDZI No one was injured or no one was assaulted. CHAIRPERSON Were any shots fired at all? MR MULAUDZI No, we did not shoot. MR FOURIE Thank you Mr Chairman. After you hid the firearms, where did you go then? MR MULAUDZI We went to the Village. MR FOURIE Was all three of you still together? You, the Mozambican and Morris, the person that you took? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. MR FOURIE This Mr Nkuna who sent you to fetch the firearms there, where was he at that stage? MR MULAUDZI We were not able to see him on that particular day. MR FOURIE When was the first time that you saw him again? MR MULAUDZI Sorry? We did not see him when we returned from Mozambique, because we were arrested. MR FOURIE Was there any other possibility or any time before you were arrested, to hand the firearms over to him? MR MULAUDZI We did not have that opportunity. MR FOURIE How did it come that you were arrested? MR MULAUDZI I do not have full information as to why, but myself and Morris decided to go to the clinic, then on the road, the Police approached us and arrested us. MR FOURIE Why did you go to the clinic? MR MULAUDZI My feet were swollen. MR FOURIE Was that due to the long walk and stuff from Mozambique to your house again? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. ADV GCABASHE When did you go to the clinic, the following day, the day after you returned? MR MULAUDZI We went a day after our arrival, then on our way to the clinic, we were arrested. MR FOURIE What, how many persons knew about this mission of yours? MR MULAUDZI Besides Mr Nkuna, no one knew about our mission. Maybe there were people from Katlehong who knew Mr Nkuna or our mission, but around our area in Malamolela, only Nkuna knew about our mission. MR FOURIE What would have happened if you refused to go to Mozambique to fetch these weapons, refused to go through with this plan? MR MULAUDZI The way I trusted Mr Nkuna, I didn't think that anything would happen to us in executing the mission. CHAIRPERSON Is the position Mr Mulaudzi that Mr Nkuna asked you to go and fetch the weapon from Mr Khosa and you were quite willing to obey his request? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON He didn't have to threaten you at all to make you go to Mozambique to fetch the weapons? MR MULAUDZI Yes, that is correct. MR FOURIE I am not sure if you already said, you didn't gain financially by going to Mozambique or did you? MR MULAUDZI Yes, I didn't receive any benefit. CHAIRPERSON There was no promise to pay you money to undertake the mission? MR MULAUDZI No sir. MR FOURIE Where is Mr Nkuna now? MR MULAUDZI In 1997 at the time I received a letter from the Truth Commission by Mr Black, I wanted to meet him so that we would be able to discuss about that statement, then I received a letter from home informing me that he has since died. MR FOURIE Can you just tell the Committee exactly as to why you did this, what was your main purpose for going to fetch these weapons and bringing them back? MR MULAUDZI My objective was that I was going to collect the firearms to give them to Mr Nkuna so that he would be able to help the Katlehong community to defend themselves or to protect themselves. MR FOURIE I have received an additional statement from the Evidence Leader today, this is actually it seems to me an application for indemnity, I have already discussed it with you, is that correct? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. MR FOURIE In this statement you mentioned something about certain ... CHAIRPERSON Certain people being killed by game rangers to Defence Force people in Mozambique, in the Kruger Park? MR MULAUDZI Yes, I do. MR FOURIE Did that have any influence on your decision to go to Mozambique to fetch these weapons? MR MULAUDZI No sir. MR FOURIE Why did you put this into the statement? MR MULAUDZI It was the time before the Truth Commission was formed, then I was requesting indemnity. I was trying to add information about things which happened in Kruger National Park. MR FOURIE So was some of this information that is standing in this statement, fabricated by you for the purpose of indemnity? MR MULAUDZI Those things happened sir. CHAIRPERSON We have read the statement Mr Fourie, so I don't think he needs to repeat it in his testimony. MR FOURIE If the Truth Commission or rather the Amnesty Committee, grants you amnesty in this application, what - rather let's say, what benefit would you say anybody else will gain from this if you will be granted amnesty in this matter, if any? MR MULAUDZI What I would say now is that I wish to ask for forgiveness to the community, whatever I have done, they should forgive me. If I am brought back to the community, I will work peacefully with the community. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mulaudzi, it is correct, I see from the papers, is it correct that you were arrested, charged, convicted and sentenced and received an effective sentence of 13 years imprisonment? MR MULAUDZI I am sentenced for 18 years and 11 months. CHAIRPERSON I see from the record, page 77 of the Bundle, the Magistrate sentenced you on a whole lot of charges to various terms of imprisonment and then it says that the charges in respect of 3, 4 and 5 and 6 will run together and that you effectively, I am quoting (transcriber's own interpretation) "... that you will have to serve out an effective period of 13 years imprisonment." In other words that you were sentenced to a total of just short of 19 years, but the effective term of imprisonment is 13 years, that is what it says here. MR MULAUDZI What I know is that I have been sentenced for 18 years and 11 months because of the illegal possession of firearms and ammunition and to enter Kruger National Park without a permit. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR FOURIE How many years of your sentence have you already been serving? MR MULAUDZI Five years and half a month, then together with the trial it is five years and eight months. MR FOURIE Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FOURIE CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Fourie. Mr Mtanga, do you have any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, I do have a few. Mr Mulaudzi, what position was held by Mr Nkuna who was your Commander in the ANC structure in your area? MR MULAUDZI I know Mr Nkuna as my Commander and again as a member of MK. MS MTANGA Were there other people who were in your Unit under his command? MR MULAUDZI The way I know, it was only myself and Morris. MS MTANGA Was Morris also trained by, or did Morris also get in-house training that you mentioned that you got from Mr Nkuna? MR MULAUDZI No, he did not have training. MS MTANGA In your indemnity application you did not mention that Mr Nkuna had ordered you to go and fetch weapons from Mozambique, why didn't you state that? MR MULAUDZI What happened to the indemnity application is that in prison, people who were issuing us the application form, did not explain to us as to what was needed in those forms. MS MTANGA The fact that you were ordered, you knew that you were supposed to justify your actions politically and your evidence today is that it was political because you had been instructed by Mr Nkuna to go and collect firearms from Mozambique, why didn't you mention that? You didn't have to be told by the Prison Authorities to do that? MR MULAUDZI In regard to my submission for indemnity, I was just explaining what happened before this incident. In my TRC application, that is where I tried to explain in full or in detail. MS MTANGA Do you know in which year did Mr Nkuna die? MR MULAUDZI I did not know the actual date, Morris' sister sent us a letter at the time when we requested him so that we would be able to submit our applications together, that is when we know that he has since died. CHAIRPERSON You learnt that he died, you got knowledge that he died in 1997? MR MULAUDZI I am not sure as to whether he died in 1997, but the only thing that I know that we received a letter in 1997 when we wrote a letter home so that he will be informed that we have submitted our amnesty applications, so that he should do the same. As to whether when he died, we are not sure. Even in the letter the date was not mentioned as to whether when he died. MS MTANGA In which area did Mr Nkuna live? MR MULAUDZI He was in Katlehong most of the time. MS MTANGA How did you meet him? MR MULAUDZI He came home in 1992, December, that is when we met. MS MTANGA So are you saying Mr Nkuna was from your area but that he spent most of his time in Katlehong? MR MULAUDZI That is correct. MS MTANGA No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Do you have any re-examination Mr Fourie? MR FOURIE I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FOURIE CHAIRPERSON Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant? ADV GCABASHE Mr Mulaudzi, just to pick up on the matter of Mr Nkuna, how do you know that he was indeed an ANC member and an MK member and not just somebody who was involved in gun-running? MR MULAUDZI In 1992, when Mr Nkuna returned home, we met him in a meeting, that is a Youth meeting, the ANC Youth meeting. He was together with other people whom I did not know, but I believed that they were members of MK. That is when he came to me, that he requested me to train me so that I would be one of those people so that I would be of help to help the community. That is when I started to know Mr Nkuna, that he is a member of the ANC and again he is a member of the MK. ADV GCABASHE Was he generally known in the area as an ANC member? MR MULAUDZI Yes, there are those who knew him well, that he was a member of the ANC and MK. ADV GCABASHE And have you been able to find out the circumstances of his death, how he died? MR MULAUDZI Yes, I was able to find out. CHAIRPERSON What did you learn about his death? MR MULAUDZI In the letter they explained that he was stabbed, he was in a car and he was stabbed to death. ADV GCABASHE What did Mr Nkuna say you should do with the firearms once you returned to your Village? MR MULAUDZI Mr Nkuna told us that when we, on our way from Mozambique, when we see the members of the South African Defence Force or the game rangers or the Police we should do something so that we should not be arrested. ADV GCABASHE Yes, I understand that, but once you got home, what did he say to you, who were you supposed to hand that weapon to? When were you supposed to hand that weapon over, you know those are the types of arrangements I am interested in. MR MULAUDZI He informed us that when we came back we should hand over those firearms to him. ADV GCABASHE And had he indicated when he might be back? MR MULAUDZI At the time when we left to Mozambique, he was still at home, but when we came back, we were not cock sure as to whether he was home or not. ADV GCABASHE When you returned, did you actually try and find him, the night you returned, or the following day before you went to the clinic? MR MULAUDZI When we came back on that day, we were tired and we came late, so we did not try and look for him. ADV GCABASHE Thank you, thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lax, do you have any questions that you would like to ask? MR LAX Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mulaudzi, I want to refer you to your application for amnesty. If one looks at page 5, question 11(a), there is a question that says in essence and I won't read the whole question, but did you do this act on behalf of anybody or with the approval of an organisation, State department concerned, etc and you answered that question "no". Why did you write that in the form? Page 5. CHAIRPERSON Of the Bundle page 5, and it is question 11(a). MR LAX Do you understand the question? MR MULAUDZI May you please repeat the question. MR LAX The question in the form here is and I will read it in full so you get the full context "... was/were the act/acts, omission/omissions offences, etc, committed in the execution of an order of or on behalf of or with the approval of the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement, State department or Security Force concerned?" To put it briefly, did you have approval of some structure to commit this act? You said no. Why did you say "no"? MR MULAUDZI What happened for me to write this way is because I did not meet any member of the ANC office in Nelspruit, then after I met those people, that is when I wrote a letter to Mr Black, together with the names and addresses of the people who had instructed me. MR LAX Well, later on the next question says "give details of such order", now you acted on the order of Mr Nkuna, that is your testimony so far, is that right? MR MULAUDZI Yes, that is correct. MR LAX Why didn't you say "yes, I acted on the orders of Mr Nkuna"? Not no? MR MULAUDZI May you please repeat the question. MR LAX Why didn't you say "yes, I acted on the orders of Mr Nkuna who sent me to go to Mozambique to go and get firearms?" MR MULAUDZI In my application form as I have already explained initially that I said I should firstly discuss this with officials of the ANC branch in Nelspruit so that they would give me permission to include the name and the addresses of the person who had instructed me. That is why I wrote a letter after, including the name, the identity and the name and the addresses of the person who instructed me, through Mr Black. MR LAX At that stage, you hadn't spoken to anyone in the ANC and you didn't want to disclose the full truth at that stage, you were only going to do that once you had spoken to the ANC? Do I understand you correctly? MR MULAUDZI The application forms were issued to us before we could even know that there was anything like the Truth Commission is going to come into being. I could not have included the names of the people who belonged to the ANC before I discussed with the ANC officials. CHAIRPERSON So what you are telling us Mr Mulaudzi is that your later letter, is a correct reflection of what occurred and what is contained in this form which you see before you, is not entirely correct because you hadn't yet spoken to any ANC representative and you were loathe to implicate the ANC in your application without getting some sort of go-ahead from them before you did so? Is that the situation? MR MULAUDZI It is true what I wrote in the statement, but I did not clarify on particular issues. CHAIRPERSON Because in your application form you say and I refer to right at the bottom of page 3 and over the page to page 4 you say "I disarmed Kruger National Park game rangers to achieve the rifle that I was going to use for Self Protection Unit, even to defend the community" and then later on you say "we were on the way to fight for freedom, the rifle was going to defend the community and myself. I was going to fight our rivals". That is what you say in the form whereas here you say that you were getting the rifle for Mr Nkuna, for him to take the rifle to Katlehong? MR MULAUDZI Yes, I wrote that way. CHAIRPERSON What Mr Lax wants to know, and we want to know is, why did you write it that way which is different from what you say today? MR MULAUDZI What made me to write this way is that, I was writing about what Mr Nkuna had told me because I was the one who was requesting amnesty, I was not - I was the one who was asking for amnesty. MR LAX Sorry, are you having a problem with the translation there, because you switched it on then you switched it off, I am not quite sure if the answer is finished yet? INTERPRETER The answer was finished, but we are still trying to find out as to whether did we say the right thing. MR LAX Okay, please just clarify that because it may be quite important later. MR MULAUDZI What I wrote on my application forms, at the time when I was writing this, I was writing about the instructions and again as the person who was an applicant in this matter, because I disarmed the game rangers with their firearms so that I will be able to defend the community. To defend the community in that way was that I was going to give Mr Nkuna the firearm so that he would be able to give it to the community to defend itself. About the issue of fighting our enemy, our enemy was the IFP. Then again the Police and the way Mr Nkuna informed us, he said the Police were helping the members of the IFP to the township, to attack the community, that is why I wrote in that way. MR LAX My question remains why did you use the words "I was going to use it", not the organisation, not taking it to some other place, you were going to use that rifle, that is what you said here? MR MULAUDZI Yes, I do understand. I said so because I am the person responsible for the firearm in Mozambique, that is why I had to write it that way. MR LAX Are you saying that you were taking the blame for it? MR MULAUDZI Yes, I put it that way so that I would be able to take the blame. ADV GCABASHE Mr Mulaudzi, my understanding of what you are saying is that you identified yourself fully with the ANC and with the issues that were explained to you by Mr Nkuna and in that light, you answered this application in this particular manner because you saw yourself as an extension of the problems that had been put to you by Mr Nkuna, even though these problems occurred in Katlehong not in your particular area, that is the essence of what I understood your evidence in the last five minutes to be, is that correct? MR MULAUDZI Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Lax, any further questions? Perhaps I can ask one. Just tell me if I am correct Mr Mulaudzi, you say that Mr Nkuna requested you to go to Mozambique and then you requested Mr Ndlovu the second applicant, did you tell Mr Ndlovu why you were going to Mozambique and that Mr Nkuna had sent you and that you were going to fetch, in other words, was he aware of the nature of the mission from the beginning? MR MULAUDZI Mr Ndlovu knew our mission in Mozambique. CHAIRPERSON You told him? MR MULAUDZI Yes, I informed him. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Lax? MR LAX Thank you Chairperson, just one last question. Why don't you mention the person from Mozambique that you brought back into the country with you, at all in your application? MR MULAUDZI The reason why I did not mention this Mozambican from Mozambique to South Africa is because he did not know what was happening. He just requested that we should accompany him or we should be in his company to South Africa. ADV GCABASHE No, no, can I just get the translation right. Did he say you should be in his company or he would like to come back with you? Just let's get that right? MR MULAUDZI He requested that he should be in our company. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel, Mr Fourie? MR FOURIE I've got nothing further, thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FOURIE CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA No questions Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mulaudzi, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. WITNESS EXCUSED