amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-18 PRETORIA 2 AKILA MANTSHANE MAPHETHO AM6207/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53472&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99061415_pre_990615pr.htm ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Good afternoon everybody. We are now going to hear the final hearing that has been set down, namely that of Messrs Chikane, Seloane and Maphetho. Before we start, I know some of you were here this morning when I introduced the panel, but for those who weren't, I would just like to introduce the panel to you. On my right is Adv Gcabashe, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee and she is an Advocate from Johannesburg. On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, also a member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an Attorney from Pietermaritzburg and I am Selwin Miller, also a member of the Amnesty Committee and I am a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of that Court. I would like the legal representatives please to place themselves on record. Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson, my name is Brian Koopedi, I am an Attorney in Pretoria, I am appearing on behalf of all three applicants, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. MR MAJUJA Thank you Mr Chairperson, my name is Thabo Majuja and I am appearing on behalf of the victim's family, the Makhudu family. As it pleases the Court. CHAIRPERSON Could you just spell your surname please? MR MAJUJA It is Majuja. MS MTANGA I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Commission. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mtanga. Those people who haven't got these devices, the proceedings are simultaneously translated and if you want to benefit from the translation, please get one of these devices from the Sound Technician at the side of the hall. Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, before I proceed, I would request that the applicants that appear before you, appear in another order as opposed to the order that is here. CHAIRPERSON Certainly we have no problem with that. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. We will first start with Mr Akila Maphetho and I will ask that he be sworn in Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Maphetho, do you have any objection to taking the oath or would you prefer to make an affirmation? MR MAPHETHO I have no objection. AKILA MANTSHANE MAPHETHO (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Koopedi? EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Mr Maphetho, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter and that this application revolves around two incidents? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Is it also correct that these two incidents referred to the attempted murder on one George Mathebula which may have occurred around the 13th of October 1985? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI And the other application relates to one Zenzile Makhudu, which incident occurred around the 22nd of January 1986? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now, at this times, were you a member of the ANC? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI In particular, were you a member of its armed wing, Umkhonto weSizwe? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Since when did you become a member of the ANC? MR MAPHETHO I became a member of the ANC in 1983, as from 1983. MR KOOPEDI Now, did you receive any military training from the ANC? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Where did you receive this training? MR MAPHETHO My first training was in Botswana, I don't remember the year, but it was in Botswana. MR KOOPEDI Now, did you have any operations that you were involved in inside the country? MR MAPHETHO Other than the two that we have mentioned, there were no other operations. MR KOOPEDI When these two incidents occurred, were you a member of a Unit or a cell? MR MAPHETHO Yes, that is correct. MR KOOPEDI And this was an MK cell, correct? MR MAPHETHO That is correct, it was an MK cell. MR KOOPEDI Did it have a name? MR MAPHETHO It was called Unit 1. MR KOOPEDI Who were the members of this Unit? MR MAPHETHO It was Stanza Bopape, Michael Seloane and myself. MR KOOPEDI Where was this Unit operative? MR MAPHETHO It was in Mamelodi. MR KOOPEDI That is in Pretoria, right? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Who was the Commander of that Unit? MR MAPHETHO The Commander was Stanza Bopape, the late Stanza Bopape. MR KOOPEDI Who were the other members of this Unit? INTERPRETER May you please repeat your question? MR LAX Sorry Mr Koopedi, if you put the headphones on, you will be able to hear the Interpreter, because they are asking you to repeat the question please. CHAIRPERSON The question was who were the other members of the Unit, you have mentioned yourself and the second applicant in this matter, namely Michael Seloane. Was there anybody else besides the three of you who were members of Unit 1? MR MAPHETHO Yes, there were other members but they were just appendages to the Unit and others were Commanders of PWV, the other one was the Odirele Maponya. That was the Overall Commander of the Unit. MR KOOPEDI For clarity sake, you said Stanza Bopape was the Commander of your Unit, is that correct? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI What was Odirele, what - was he commanding your Unit also? MR MAPHETHO Odirele Maponya was the Overall Commander of the PWV. MR KOOPEDI Do I understand you then to say that there would have been other Units in the area and he would be responsible for those Units, but for your Unit, Stanza would have been the Commander? MR MAPHETHO Yes, with my knowledge Odirele is the Overall Commander of the PWV area, but in our Unit, it was under the direct command of Stanza Bopape. MR KOOPEDI For the record sake, is it correct that both Mr Stanza Bopape and Odirele Maponya are no more with us today, they are no more alive? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now, let's go to the attack on Mr Mathebula, George. Who gave the order for this attack? MR MAPHETHO That is Stanza Bopape. MR KOOPEDI Did he give any reasons for the order? MR MAPHETHO At that time, there was a campaign that the Police should be isolated, that was the part of the strategy that the Police should be isolated, then it happened that George was mentioned among those people who were notorious within the township, that is why he was one of the targets. MR KOOPEDI Could you explain what you mean by notorious? MR MAPHETHO When I say notorious, it is that in many instances we used to have meetings and then the Police used to harass people and shoot people and assault people, then it happened that George's name was mentioned as one of those notorious Policemen who used to attack the community. MR KOOPEDI So, he then became a target? MR MAPHETHO Yes. Though he was not alone. He was not isolated alone as a target, he was among the targets. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Now, who took part in the attack? MR MAPHETHO That is Michael Seloane and myself. MR KOOPEDI Could you briefly tell this Honourable Committee how the attack was executed? MR MAPHETHO What happened firstly, we went there and then we were able to locate his house, then we reconnoitred the yard and then we planned how we were going to attack the house. Then we planned again after the attack, how were we going to retreat. Then we were able to see how we would be able to succeed in that mission, then we went there to attack that particular house. MR KOOPEDI When you went there, was it the two of you? MR MAPHETHO Yes, the two of us. MR KOOPEDI What happened, what did you do when you reached his house? MR MAPHETHO When we arrived, we threw handgrenades in the house. After that, we retreated. CHAIRPERSON Could you give an indication of how many handgrenades were thrown into the house? MR MAPHETHO Two handgrenades CHAIRPERSON Did you each throw one? MR MAPHETHO Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, when you say into the house, did you throw it through a closed window, an open window, through an open door, what do you mean you threw it into the house? Which part of the house? MR MAPHETHO The windows were closed and we threw two rooms, we stoned the house with bricks and then thereafter, we threw the handgrenades. MR KOOPEDI Okay. After throwing the handgrenades, what did you do? MR MAPHETHO Then we withdrew and we went back. MR KOOPEDI Did you see if anyone was injured? MR MAPHETHO We realised the following day that there were people who were injured. MR KOOPEDI After this attack, did you make a report to anyone? MR MAPHETHO After the attack, we reported. MR KOOPEDI To whom did you report? MR MAPHETHO We reported to Stanza Bopape. MR KOOPEDI Let's move to the second incident. When Mr Zenzile Makhudu was killed. Is it correct that this incident could have happened around the 22nd of January 1986? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Who gave the order that this person must be attacked? MR MAPHETHO That is the late Odirele Maponya. MR KOOPEDI If your Commander was Stanza, why would you then receive an order from someone higher up? MR MAPHETHO It happened that Stanza Bopape at that time was detained, then I was working under the direct command of Mensday, that is Odirele Maponya. MR KOOPEDI So, does it mean that you replaced Stanza as a Commander of Unit 1 or simply that you just started receiving commands from the late Mensday? MR MAPHETHO Yes, I took the position of Stanza Bopape as the Commander of Unit 1. MR KOOPEDI Okay. Who took part in this attack? MR MAPHETHO That is Lazarus Chikane and myself. MR KOOPEDI Lazarus Chikane is one of your co-applicants, is that correct? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now, you have told this Honourable Committee about the members of your Unit, could you tell this Honourable Committee how Lazarus Chikane was related to your Unit? MR MAPHETHO In that same year, the order came from the ANC that the Units which were inside the country, should expand, therefore we had to recruit more people so as to enhance the Units within the country. That is why I recruited Lazarus. Then we were able to continue with the operation. MR KOOPEDI Could you tell this Committee what happened on the day of the attack? MR MAPHETHO On the day of the attack, I went to the particular house. I reconnoitred the house then I saw his car entering, then I was convinced that he was in the house. Then I returned back, I met Lazarus and thereafter we went to his house and attacked. CHAIRPERSON Sorry, Mr Koopedi, sorry to interrupt, you mentioned that Mr Mathebula George was a target because his name was mentioned in meetings and it was part of this programme to isolate the Police. What was the reason for Zenzile Makhudu to become a target? MR MAPHETHO The reasons are the same because Zenzile was one of those people who were harassing the people, then he was telling people openly that Mamelodi Youth Organisation and UDF, as long as he is still present or still alive, they are going to be extinct. That made him to be an enemy of the community. MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. When the attack occurred, only two people were present, is that correct? Yourself and Lazarus? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR KOOPEDI What happened exactly, please tell this Committee? CHAIRPERSON The question was could you please tell the Committee what happened in the attack, describe the attack. MR MAPHETHO During the attack as I have already mentioned that we threw two grenades in two bedrooms. After we threw those handgrenades, then we withdrew. The following day when we listened to the news, we learnt that Zenzile together with his wife were injured, and then later we learnt that Zenzile had died. MR KOOPEDI Were you, when you executed these attacks, I am referring to the two of them, did you consider that there might be other people in their company? MR MAPHETHO According to the information we had at the time, we knew that George was usually alone and then we knew that Zenzile also was alone at all times, unfortunately it happened that the people who were there, were caught in the cross-fire. That is how I can put it, but it is not our intention or the intention of the ANC or of MK to kill innocent people. MR KOOPEDI If there were, if there were people as it appears from the documents before us that there were people in their presence, would you like your application to encompass whatever harm that could have befallen those people? MR MAPHETHO Yes, that is correct, I want to include those people who were caught in the cross-fire. It was not our intention or the intention of the ANC or of MK to injure or to attack innocent people, but it was the intention of the ANC and MK to attack the Police. It happened unfortunately during a war situation, it happens that there would be people who are not part of the warring factions who would be caught in the cross-fire and they would be injured or killed. That is one of the things which made me to come forward and apply for amnesty before this Commission. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now for these two operations, did you receive any personal gain, were you paid? MR MAPHETHO I did not receive any personal benefit. MR KOOPEDI Do you think that you have fully disclosed all the material facts, relevant facts, in these two applications before this Honourable Committee? MR MAPHETHO Yes. MR KOOPEDI From your evidence, could you say that these two attacks were politically motivated? MR MAPHETHO Yes, that is correct. MR KOOPEDI In your mind, do you think that any political objective was achieved by these two incidents? MR MAPHETHO Yes, that is correct. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that concludes the evidence in chief of this applicant, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Majuja, do you have any questions that you would like to put to this applicant? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAJUJA Yes, Mr Chairman, I have got several questions to ask the applicant. Could you tell us when did this incident happen, the attack of Mr Zenzile Makhudu's house? MR MAPHETHO Though I am not able to remember the actual date, but it happened in 1985 towards the end. MR MAJUJA: But we have the evidence from the inquest that was held with regard to this killing, that this person's death was in 1986. MR MAPHETHO Are you talking about Zenzile? MR MAJUJA Yes. MR MAPHETHO As I have stated that I am not able to remember the actual date, but I accept that I am responsible for the death of Zenzile. CHAIRPERSON I think when Mr Koopedi was asking you questions at the start of this incident, he asked you whether or not the incident occurred on the 2nd of January 1986 and you said yes? MR MAPHETHO I said yes, because it is stated in the documents, but as I say that I am not able to remember the actual date. CHAIRPERSON As far as you are concerned, it happened late 1985 or early 1986, somewhere around there? MR MAPHETHO Towards the end of 1985, that is when we executed the first operation and then the January one, is the one, is the operation towards Zenzile. CHAIRPERSON I don't think anything really material turns on the actual precise date. MR MAJUJA Actually Chairperson, I think I am satisfied with the way he has responded. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MAJUJA You later told this hearing that there was an order from the ANC that your cells should expand and as I understand from the evidence that you have already given, you were like three in your Unit, does the word expand mean that you had to recruit only one member? MR MAPHETHO No, it doesn't explain that. When I mean to expand, it says whoever, any member who is in the Unit, should go and recruit people who would be part of that Unit. If he found those people, he must not come and tell members of other Units, so that there should be a mood of secrecy. MR MAJUJA Can you tell us at what time did you want to check Mr Makhudu's house? MR MAPHETHO I am not able to remember the dates, but I did do the reconnoitring the same day, but I don't remember the same dates. CHAIRPERSON What time of the day, were you there in the morning, early morning, lunch time, the evening, night time? MR MAPHETHO I did reconnoitring in the morning and again during the day and in the afternoon. MR MAJUJA Can you tell us, okay, at night, at what time, that is what I am concerned with? MR MAPHETHO I am not able to remember the actual time. MR MAJUJA At the time when you saw Zenzile's car getting into his yard, at what time was it? MR MAPHETHO I don't remember what time was it. CHAIRPERSON Was it daylight or dusk? MR MAPHETHO It was at night. MR MAJUJA You have told this Commission that Zenzile was one of the people who were harassing the people of Mamelodi, is that correct? MR MAPHETHO Yes, that is correct. MR MAJUJA And you said that he openly said that he was going to deal with the UDF and other organisations in the community? MR MAPHETHO Yes, that is correct. MR MAJUJA When did he make those statements? MR MAPHETHO I would not actually say when, but he was at Maseko's shopping centre, he was telling people loudly. Then on that day I was present, I heard him saying so. MR MAJUJA Okay, in your application for amnesty, if you can check on page 4, what your justification for regarding such acts as political objective. MR LAX Mr Majuja, is that page 18 of the Bundle? MR MAJUJA Yes, Mr Chairperson. In the statement you are saying that the two Policemen were well known among the Mamelodi community as killers of our people, but now you are saying that they were harassing. What is the difference between harassment and killing? MR MAPHETHO You can harass a person by beating a person, you can harass the people by throwing the teargas on them and you can harass them by killing them. When you assault people and when you kill them, those who are around those, are harassed. MR MAJUJA ... evidence that Zenzile Makhudu had killed some of the community members? MR MAPHETHO I don't have evidence to that regard as to whether, whom did he kill, but I am saying the Police who were in Mamelodi, there were those who were killed by them. MR MAJUJA In your statement you are saying the two Policemen, you are talking about George and Zenzile, is that not correct? MR MAPHETHO Yes, that is correct. MR MAJUJA You are saying that they were known amongst the Mamelodi community as killers, why did you write that if you are not in agreement with that? MR MAPHETHO I said they were known as killers. That is what I am saying, that the Police were killing people, then it may happen that George and Zenzile were known as killers, because even in the meetings, they would sing songs with them and then in the meetings the people requested that these people should be killed. According to Mamelodi residents, in this particular case, I quote these two people, because I am applying amnesty for the attacks. Those are some of the people who were regarded as killers by Mamelodi residents. MR MAJUJA There is a sentence where you say that as a result the Mamelodi Committee, I want to know what is that Committee that you are talking about here, the Mamelodi Committee that took the decision that these people should be removed from society? MR MAPHETHO It was not a formal meeting, but during the rallies and during the meetings when people sing slogans and when they lodge complaints, they would talk about people who were harassing them as people who were playing a leading role in the harassments and among the names mentioned, was Zenzile and George and others. CHAIRPERSON Mr Maphetho, what you are being asked is, you mentioned here just to quote from here "... as a result the Mamelodi Committee demanded their immediate removal." Now, was there such a thing as a Mamelodi Committee and he is asking you about this Committee, what was this Mamelodi Committee because a Committee is normally an identifiable group of persons who regularly meet in order to pursue a particular object. MR MAPHETHO At that time, we used to have a forum and during the meetings of this forum, when we discuss about Mamelodi problems, in those forums the comment would be made that there are people who are troublesome and MK is not happy about Zenzile and Sinke and George but MK is not doing anything in that regard. Those are the various Committees which used to raise problems as to whether why is MK not solving the community's problems. CHAIRPERSON Could any citizen of Mamelodi attend these meetings or was it restricted to certain people only who could attend those meetings? MR MAPHETHO In various sections, there were Committees and then they would send delegations to the General Committee within Mamelodi. MR MAJUJA Was this an order from the Mamelodi Committee? MR MAPHETHO As I have stated that the people I am talking about as members of this Committee, it was their complaints that these people should be removed from Mamelodi because they were troublesome and I as a member of the ANC, and then as a member of MK, I was fighting on behalf of the people, so the complaints of the people are my complaints, and as a member of MK, I had to defend or protect the community against any attacker, and especially the person who was attacking the people in defence of the apartheid system. MR MAJUJA Do you know the Unit that Mr Makhudu was working for while he was a Policeman? MR MAPHETHO What I knew is that he was a member of the Special Branch, as to whether where, I did not have full details. But he was always going all out and telling people that he will deal thoroughly with UDF and Youth Organisations in Mamelodi. MR MAJUJA So will I be correct if I say that you were not sure that he was in the CID or a Special Branch member? MR MAPHETHO As I have already stated that I did not know as to whether he was a CID or a member of the Special Branch. But what made him to be among the target, is his comments before the people. As I have stated that it was a campaign that the Police should be isolated. In short it meant that each and every Policeman, as long as he defends apartheid, became a target. Isolation can mean many things, you can isolate them in the real sense of isolating them, it may be isolation in the sense that they should be removed from society be attacking them and killing them. MR MAJUJA Let's go back to the place where this whole incident took place. You said that you threw in two handgrenades into the house or one into each room? CHAIRPERSON You are talking about the Makhudu incident? MR MAJUJA Yes, the Makhudu incident. Is that correct? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Before you proceed Mr Majuja, can I just get some information, these handgrenades, could you describe what they were, their potency, what type of grenades they were? MR MAPHETHO The handgrenades are those we call a defensive and offensive handgrenades and both of them have high potency. But defensive grenades have more power because it goes into splinters when it blasts and even offensive handgrenades has power also. CHAIRPERSON What did you use in that particular attack, were you using defensive grenades or offensive? MR MAPHETHO We used both of them. CHAIRPERSON One of each? MR MAPHETHO Yes, that is correct. MR MAJUJA Who was handling which one, who was handling the offensive and who was handling the defensive one? MR MAPHETHO I had a defensive handgrenade and my colleague had an offensive handgrenade. MR MAJUJA And this defensive one, where was it thrown? MR MAPHETHO In the bedroom where the deceased was killed. MR MAJUJA Was the window closed or open at that time when you threw this handgrenade in? MR MAPHETHO The window was closed. MR MAJUJA So how did you manage to throw the handgrenade into the house? MR MAPHETHO I had a brick, I broke the window panes and then thereafter I threw the handgrenade inside. CHAIRPERSON Were there curtains across the window? MR MAPHETHO I don't remember about curtains because it was at night, what I know is that I broke the window and then I threw the handgrenade. CHAIRPERSON From what range Mr Maphetho, more or less? MR MAPHETHO I didn't throw the brick, I used it to break the window. MR MAJUJA How did you throw it? MR MAPHETHO From there I threw the handgrenade. MR MAJUJA Were you like placing it or throwing it inside? MR MAPHETHO I threw it inside. MR MAJUJA I don't understand, you threw it or you just placed it, that is what I want to know? MR MAPHETHO I said I threw it. MR MAJUJA With force or minimal force? MR MAPHETHO There was no need to throw it with force because I was near the window. MR MAJUJA How did you know that there were two people inside the house? MR MAPHETHO I did not know that there were two people inside the house. MR MAJUJA Did you report this incident immediately? MR MAPHETHO Yes, I did. MR MAJUJA Whom did you report it to? MR MAPHETHO I reported to Mainstay, that is Odirele Maponya. MR MAJUJA Can you tell us approximately how long was the whole operation? MR MAPHETHO It didn't take a long time, what happened is that we arrived there, I broke the window and then we threw the handgrenades, and then we withdrew. MR MAJUJA You know, if you can look at the Bundle there, there is a statement by, I think it is page 32, no page 26 Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It is a statement by Warrant Officer Rossouw Mashabane, is that right? MR MAJUJA There is something very interesting there, if you look at paragraph 1, the Officer talks about having been told about this incident by a certain Le Roux, Lieutenant Le Roux, how could Lieutenant Le Roux have known about this incident if you didn't report it? CHAIRPERSON Perhaps, just for the record Mr Maphetho, this paragraph 1 says, this is a statement by Warrant Officer Mashabane, he says "... on the night of the 22nd January 1986, I was on duty. Sergeant Maposa was my crew, we arrived at Mamelodi charge office at 03H50 (I think it is, the early hours of the morning) on the 23rd of January 1986 and Lieutenant Le Roux of the Riot Squad told me that there had been an explosion at house 4440, Block M." The question was, how would Lieutenant Le Roux have known about the explosion if you had not reported it to the Police? MR MAPHETHO I don't know how he knew, but when we executed our operations, we usually reported to our Commanders, not the Police. MR MAJUJA The F1 handgrenade, the defensive one, when it explodes, you explained there is some splinters from that, is that correct? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Shrapnel I think is the word, yes. MR MAJUJA Shrapnels? MR MAPHETHO Yes. MR MAJUJA So as you were an active member of MK, so I think maybe you might be able to help me, if maybe you are two in the room and with this kind of a handgrenade being thrown at us, would it not injure all of us? MR MAPHETHO Yes, it will. MR MAJUJA And you say that you heard the following day that there were two people in the house? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR MAJUJA And the other one was deceased? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MR MAJUJA Would you be able maybe to guide as us to why is it like that? MR MAPHETHO How? MR MAJUJA I just want to, maybe you can help me, you know, because that is what the family wants to know. CHAIRPERSON What the witness said was that they threw the two grenades in and then they later learnt that two people had been injured and then they again later learnt, that one of them Zenzile, died. That is what he says, so we don't know whether they were in the same room or different rooms or whether - he just heard that two people were injured. I don't think the witness said that there were only two people in the house, he said he heard that there were two injured. MR MAJUJA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Furthermore, the handgrenade, the offensive handgrenade, in which room was it thrown into? MR MAPHETHO It was thrown in the front bedroom. MR MAJUJA So it exploded inside that room? MR MAPHETHO What I know is that the offensive one exploded before the defensive one. CHAIRPERSON Mr Maphetho, when you threw these grenades in, did they immediately blow up or did they roll on the floor and then after a while, after a time span, blow or did they blow on contact with hitting the ground or whatever they hit inside the bedroom? MR MAPHETHO It does not explode immediately, but it doesn't take a long time. MR MAJUJA But you know I don't know whether your Counsel has got hold of the inquest report that was made with regard to this killing. If you look at, did you have it in your possession? MR MAPHETHO Yes, I have it. MR MAJUJA It clearly shows that the offensive handgrenade exploded next to the wall, I don't know what you call it, a (indistinct) in English? CHAIRPERSON Next to the? ADV GCABASHE Concrete fence, next to the concrete fence. CHAIRPERSON Outside? MR MAJUJA Yes. MR LAX Sorry Mr Majuja, you have some photographs there that we don't have, I am afraid. MR MAJUJA If it pleases this Committee, I don't have a problem of handing them in because it is the intention of the victim's family to submit them. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. What you are putting to the witness is that the offensive grenade blew outside the house, not inside the house? MR MAJUJA Not inside the house. CHAIRPERSON Next to the concrete wall which goes around the edge of the garden? What do you say to that Mr Maphetho? MR MAPHETHO I said if you are in an operation, after you have done an operation, there is no time to observe as to whether your target was hit or not. What I said is we threw two handgrenades. CHAIRPERSON Are you not disputing the fact that one of them might have exploded in the garden next to the wall? MR MAPHETHO Yes, I don't dispute that and again, I don't agree with it. CHAIRPERSON The one that you threw, you yourself personally, you say you threw it into, because you were close, next to the window and you broke the window with a brick and you threw it into the room so the one that landed in the garden from what you tell us, would obviously not have been the one that you were throwing? MR MAPHETHO Yes, that is not the one I threw. CHAIRPERSON Did you see Lazarus throw his grenade? MR MAPHETHO I did not see him because he was outside, I was inside. He threw. I heard by the sound that he threw his handgrenade, but I didn't see where. MR MAJUJA But you as a Commander of the Unit, will I be correct if I say that you were the one who came with the order to eliminate Zenzile? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, with respect, this witness has testified that he received orders from Odirele. CHAIRPERSON He said he received orders from Mr Maponya. MR MAJUJA Mr Chairperson ... CHAIRPERSON And that he was the leader of the actual attack operation on the ground. MR MAJUJA Mr Chairperson, if it was possible for the late Mr Bopape to issue an order ... CHAIRPERSON Maponya. Was it Maponya? I think Bopape was the first incident on George. MR MAJUJA Yes, actually I am just trying to compare the two incidents, Your Worship, Mr Chairperson. Like, if it was possible for Mr Bopape to issue a command to go and eliminate somebody, why were you not in the position to do so because you were the Commander of that particular Unit, Unit 1? MR MAPHETHO I don't understand your question. MR MAJUJA Mr Bopape issued a command ... CHAIRPERSON What he said Mr Majuja is, and correct me Mr Maphetho if I am wrong, he said that they had a Unit 1, initially it had the three members he mentioned, including Mr Bopape and himself and the other applicant. MR KOOPEDI Seloane Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And of that Unit, Mr Bopape was the Commander and then when it came to the Zenzile, the Makhudu operation, Mr Bopape was not available, he was in detention, that is why the order came from Mr Maponya. MR MAJUJA But Mr Chairperson, what I understand is that the applicant has said that he replaced Bopape, meaning that he was the Commander of that Unit. CHAIRPERSON Well, let's put it to him. Did you become the Commander of Unit 1 in the absence of Mr Bopape? MR MAPHETHO Yes, I said so because I was, at that time I was working with Odirele. CHAIRPERSON Right now, the question put by Mr Majuja is in that event, you said that when Mr Bopape was the Commander, he could make the decision himself, he gave the order himself as in the Mathebula incident, now he wants to know seeing that you were the Commander standing as it were, in the shoes of Mr Bopape, why did you have to receive orders from Mr Maponya, why didn't you make the order yourself, is that the thrust of your question Mr Majuja? MR MAJUJA Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON In other words why didn't Mr Maponya also order the Mathebula incident? MR MAPHETHO I would explain it this way. In the Unit, the Commander is a Commander of that particular Unit and that Unit, there would be another Commander who is above him. Stanza was receiving orders from Maponya and then Bopape would transfer those commands to the Unit. If the Commander dies of a particular Unit or he is not present at that particular time, there would be somebody who would be in command at that particular Unit and then that particular person would receive commands from a higher Commander. There will be no Commander who acts independently. If Stanza was present during the Zenzile attack, the order would come from Stanza Bopape and then Stanza Bopape could have received the order from Odirele Maponya. MR MAJUJA Thank you for that answer. You said that, you told this Committee that you were sorry about the whole incident. Is that correct? MR MAPHETHO Yes, because I have stated that there were people who were attacked and they were not members of the Security Forces, it happened that they were caught in a cross-fire. MR MAJUJA What made you actually to come to this Committee to ask for amnesty? MR MAPHETHO The reason is that apartheid has been removed and then we have Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I wanted to be part of that Truth and Reconciliation Commission, that people should disclose about the past, the conflict of the past and that we will be able to build the new South Africa together, that we should forgive one another and start building the new nation. MR MAJUJA Besides your Unit, who knew about this incident? MR MAPHETHO We are talking about two incidents, which one are you referring to? MR MAJUJA The Makhudu incident? MR MAPHETHO No one knew about this incident. CHAIRPERSON Well, Mr Maponya would have known about it and then afterwards it would have become well known because it was in the newspapers? MR MAPHETHO (No translation) MR MAJUJA So obviously because you were never arrested and there are no pending charges against you, why did you have to disclose it? I just want to know your motive for why? I am not satisfied with the answer that you gave me, that you ... MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, with respect, this witness has in evidence in chief explained why he came before this Committee. A few minutes ago the same question was put to him as to why he came before this Committee, he gave a very clear explanation why he came here and I feel this question is unfair. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think Mr Majuja, I can tell you from experience in these matters that many, many applicants have come forward and disclosed incidents that they have been involved in in respect of which they have never been arrested or charged or even suspected of having been committed and that they also have said that they have done it in the spirit of reconciliation and the building of a new nation. MR MAJUJA Thank you Chairperson. I don't have further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAJUJA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Majuja. Do you have any questions, Ms Mtanga? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA Yes Chairperson, about two questions. Mr Maphetho, in the statement made by Mr Mathebula he stated there that he was actually surprised as to why he was attacked by your Unit because he was only in charge of charge office duties, he was only at the charge office of the Police. Were you aware, were you personally aware of what activities would have made Mr Makhudu a target for your Unit? MR MAPHETHO We don't know as to whether who works in the charge office or who works in the field, but what we know is that all Police at that particular time, as I stated, is that they were regarded as enemies of the people because they were supporting apartheid. As I stated, is that this two people which I have attacked, they happened to be among the Police according to the community, who were regarded as their enemy. MS MTANGA The attack on Mr Mathebula took place on the 13th of October 1985, did you carry out any reconnaissance on that day, that is prior to the attack? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. MS MTANGA What time was this, can you remember, what time of the day was it? MR MAPHETHO My reconnaissance were done during the day and during the night. MS MTANGA In the affidavit of Mr Mathebula he states that he was at home with his ex-wife and his mother. My concern is if you had done reconnaissance and your intention was not to injure innocent people, his ex-wife and the mother were innocent people and if you had done reconnaissance, you would have known that there were these people in the house? What do you say to this? MR MAPHETHO My response is that when you are sent to do investigations and you bring the information gathered, you would not rule out the possibilities that at a particular time, it may not be complete, that is why even in a war situation, people who are injured ordinarily, are people who are not involved in that particular war. It was not out intention to kill his ex-wife or his mother or anyone who is not involved in the Police activities. MS MTANGA No further questions, Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Do you have any re-examination? MR KOOPEDI Nothing in re-examination Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant? ADV GCABASHE Thank you Chair. Mr Maphetho, just explain to me again with regards Mr Makhudu's house, you arrived there with Mr Chikane, yes? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. ADV GCABASHE You were the first one to act, you broke the window and threw the handgrenade into the bedroom? MR MAPHETHO If I remember well, I was not the first one to act. Maybe our attack was simultaneous, but I don't remember quite well as to whether who attacked first, but what I know is that I threw my handgrenade where he was sleeping. ADV GCABASHE You see, the reason I ask is because of the issue of the concrete fence, that one of the handgrenades landed near the concrete fence, all right, and you said in your evidence that Lazarus was outside and you were inside, all right? MR MAPHETHO Let me explain this way. ADV GCABASHE Okay. MR MAPHETHO: When you talk about George, you should talk about George and then when you address about Zenzile, you must mention Zenzile because I only know of the surnames now because I didn't know their surnames, I only know them as George and Zenzile. When you put a question sometimes I become confused as to whether which incident you are talking about. CHAIRPERSON We are talking about the Zenzile incident in this case, the Zenzile incident, the second one. MR MAPHETHO During the Zenzile attack, Lazarus threw the handgrenade first and then I threw my handgrenade second. ADV GCABASHE That is exactly where I need a bit of clarity, you said that Lazarus was outside and you were inside, that is I assume in relation to the concrete fence - hold on, hold on, don't rush, let's do this slowly, otherwise I am going to miss it completely - he was outside the yard and you were inside the yard, you had the concrete fence between you, yes? MR MAPHETHO That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Now explain to me from that point, you threw your handgrenade first and then he threw his, is that the order? MR MAPHETHO I said he threw his handgrenade first. ADV GCABASHE Okay, his handgrenade landed up next to the concrete fence on the basis of what Mr Majuja put to you, do you remember this, because you must have been inside the yard at that point? MR MAPHETHO As I have already stated that after the operation, you do not have time to make some observations as to whether, where did you hit. After the operations you withdraw immediately. INTERPRETER I don't think he did understand your questions. CHAIRPERSON While we wait, when the handgrenades were thrown, were the lights out, were the people inside apparently asleep or were the lights still on and people apparently still awake? MR MAPHETHO The lights were off. MR LAX Can I just ask, in that bundle of papers, is there a plan of the place to show where the various explosions were, with a map of the wall and so on, so that we can get a picture. MR MAJUJA Mr Chairperson, I can submit that if you want to see that, I don't have a problem with that. MR LAX Because that would help explain, that would help the witness to orientate himself as to where he was and where the other person was and so on. ADV GCABASHE Anyway, I must be honest, I am still not clear. Maybe Mr Koopedi will be able to assist, he might understand my difficulty because as I understand it, if you were inside the yard and Mr Chikane threw his grenade after you had thrown yours, or before, I beg your pardon, before, you would have been injured in that explosion, you would have noticed, you would have seen that explosion, but maybe you need to explain the sequence of events just a little better, just to assist us understand the timing of the devices, why you were confident that even if he threw his first and it landed outside, it wouldn't explode first. You know, maybe that is the area that is a bit grey and that I certainly don't quite understand. CHAIRPERSON And also whether the explosions both took place at the same side of the house. MR KOOPEDI If I may come to your assistance, excuse me, I seem to agree with the suggestion by Honourable Committee member, Mr Lax, that if we had a picture or a map of the place, it would be easy to deal with the question, because from what I understood from the evidence, is that he went inside and when he was inside, the other one was left outside and he went to the bedroom window, although he did not specify which bedroom window, but it could have been any, which means in my mind, it could have been a bedroom window behind the house perhaps or not on the same side of the wall, because I am not sure on which side was Mr Maphetho. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps we can ask Mr Maphetho, Mr Maphetho, we know that two explosions went off and we know that the handgrenade that you threw, you know landed inside the house because you were standing next to the window, in relation to where you were standing at that window when you threw in that grenade, do you know where about the other explosion took place? We know it was outside next to the wall, but where was it, was it behind you, was it on the same side of the house, the other side of the house? If you don't know, just say so. MR MAPHETHO Let me explain it this way, for the first handgrenade to explode, it was not an accident, it was a plan because I instructed him that he should throw his one, his first. Then after his one exploded, I would throw my handgrenade and then at the point where I was, his handgrenade would not affect me in relation to where I was standing. CHAIRPERSON Why would it not affect you? MR MAPHETHO The handgrenade which he threw, it affects you with the cartridges. There is a wall and then there is, if you throw it in front, then being at the back, there will be no way which it will affect me. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying it wasn't on the same side of the house where you were standing? MR MAPHETHO He was outside the yard, but I was at the back, next to the window and then when he threw his handgrenade, it would not affect me, and even if that person is behind the house, that handgrenade would not affect that particular person. MS MTANGA Chairperson, if I may come in, we have some photocopies of the photographs of the house and I have asked the Investigator to make copies of them, I think they might assist the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Adv Gcabashe, do you have any other questions? ADV GCABASHE Yes, one other aspect. You spoke of the community wanting these people and I understand that you meant Policemen, to be removed from the Mamelodi community and in your application you speak about "remove from society", what was the intention here, or what did the Mamelodi community say? Was it removal from society as eliminate, kill or removal from that particular community so that they can move on and go and live somewhere else where they would not bother the Mamelodi community, or was it both, can you explain that to me? MR MAPHETHO When the Mamelodi, as soldiers we regarded ourselves as the people's army. If the people were saying that these people should be removed from society, to our standing it meant that they should be attacked. ADV GCABASHE That is precisely my question, was the issue that they should be removed from society or that they should be removed from the Mamelodi community? MR MAPHETHO To put it straight, it meant that they should be killed. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Chair. CHAIRPERSON I think at this stage we can say that it concludes your testimony. Sorry, I forgot to ask Mr Koopedi, questions arising out of questions put by the panel? MR KOOPEDI You were correct Chairperson, that should conclude his evidence. CHAIRPERSON You don't have any questions arising out of questions put? MR KOOPEDI I have no questions save to perhaps mention something which may have missed your attention in that particularly around the question of where was he standing. I seem to have heard him say in his evidence that when he heard that, rather he said "I knew that he (referring to lazarus) had thrown the handgrenade because I heard", this in my mind tells me that he did not see it, he was not on the same side and that goes on to explain why he would not have been injured. I am just trying to go to the difficulty that Adv Gcabashe had earlier on, thank you Chairperson. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Mr Majuja, do you have any questions arising out of questions that were put by the panel? MR MAJUJA At this time I don't have any questions, Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAJUJA CHAIRPERSON Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions arising? MS MTANGA No questions, Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We have arranged for lunch to be at half past one, so we have quarter of an hour, I think let's, if we could commence with the evidence of the next applicant and then we will break at half past one. INTERPRETER The Interpreters request (indistinct) CHAIRPERSON The Interpreters, okay, I have received another request from the Interpreters, well, perhaps then we will adjourn for lunch now and see if we can resume at quarter to two, provide lunch, would that be convenient? MR KOOPEDI That is convenient for us Chairperson, even if we could have a shorter lunch, we have no problems. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, we will now adjourn for lunch and try our best to start again at quarter to two. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON Thank you. During the lunch interval, we were handed some photographs and a description of the points indicated in the photographs and it would seem that the photograph, the explosion that took place next to the fence, is explosion (a) and the explosion described by Mr Maphetho, if one looks at the first page of the handgrenade that was thrown through the bedroom window, is (f). Our photo's, we don't actually have a (f), but it is clear that points (a), (b) are on the same side of the house and (f) must have been on another side of the house which would explain the fact that no shrapnel from (a) hit Mr Maphetho. I think it is fairly clear from this. Mr Koopedi? MR MAJUJA Mr Chairperson, may I intervene before we proceed? Mr Chairperson, during the course of this day, especially during the hearing, if this Honourable Committee understands, I asked one question twice, why are we here and the answer was given that it was to reconcile and even the Honourable Chairperson even assisted the applicant. You even mentioned one instance that happened earlier this year, I wish that the applicant should take into consideration that we have got kids of the deceased among us here and then to go out and just talking about that, you don't care, you know like, you are not scared of anything, it shows that there is no remorse, especially on the part of the first applicant who has already given evidence and I want this Honourable Committee to take this into consideration when they make their decision with regard to this, (indistinct) of the first witness. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Majuja. Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, I am a little at sea, I am not sure what my learned friend is referring to and I believe this Committee will consider you know, in making its decision, will consider evidence that is before it. I am not sure what my learned friend is referring to. CHAIRPERSON We've got to consider these applications in terms of the criteria contained in the Act, which criteria I think we all are aware of, that is political objective, full disclosure and whether the application complies with the requirements of the Act, the question of remorse isn't actually one of the criteria for the granting or refusal of amnesty. MR KOOPEDI May I just say Chairperson, and without belabouring the issue, that the first applicant explained why he came here, the first applicant explained why he says he is sorry and with respect, I do not understand my learned friend's utterances. MR MAJUJA I don't know whether my learned colleague wants me to respond to that? Actually I am referring to an incident that happened when we left this hall, when we went for a break. The applicant who has already, Mr Maphetho, uttered a statement that he was not scared and if the family of the victim wants to fight, he doesn't care, he is not scared. I think the purpose of us being here, is to reconcile. CHAIRPERSON Yes, certainly one would hope that that would be one of the effects of an application of this nature. We have noted what you have said. Mr Koopedi? MR KOOPEDI No Chairperson, I do not want to comment on this issue.