amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1999-06-18 PRETORIA 2 MICHAEL HOMOTSANG SELOANE AM6409/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53473&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99061415_pre_990615pr.htm CHAIRPERSON ... continuation with your applications, are you calling ... MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson, the next applicant in this matter is Mr Michael Seloane. May I ask that he be sworn in Chairperson. MICHAEL HOMOTSANG SELOANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Are you going to be speaking in English? MR SELOANE Yes. EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI Thank you Chairperson. Mr Seloane, is it correct that you are a co-applicant in this matter? MR SELOANE In which matter? MR KOOPEDI In the amnesty application where one George Mathebula was attacked? MR SELOANE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Is it also correct that your co-applicant is Mr Akila Maphetho who has just given evidence? MR SELOANE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI You have heard his evidence, is that correct, all of it? MR SELOANE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now he has mentioned that you were a member of a Unit known as Unit 1 in Mamelodi, is that correct? MR SELOANE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Which would then mean that you were a member of the ANC and MK, its armed wing? MR SELOANE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now, your co-applicant has mentioned that you were involved in an attack on one George Mathebula, which according to the documentation we have here, should have happened on the 13th of the 10th month 1985, is that correct? MR SELOANE That is correct. MR KOOPEDI Now, this attack, who told you about it? Who told you that you should partake in it? MR SELOANE I was a member of Unit 1 together with Stanza and Akila and we had the meeting sometimes around August/September and that is where the order to attack George Mathebula came up. But it was only known as George, I didn't know the surname. MR KOOPEDI Okay. MR SELOANE It came from Stanza. MR KOOPEDI It came from Stanza? Now let's go to the day of the attack, what happened, what did you do, what was your role? MR SELOANE It was myself and Akila and we had two grenades and then he went to one of the rooms and I came to the other room and then we timed ourselves to say that at least within the next two, three minutes we have to throw the grenades into the house. I had a brick and a grenade and then I broke the window and then threw the grenade in the room and then dived on the ground for some few seconds and then after the explosion, I stood up and then ran away. MR KOOPEDI When you threw your handgrenade, could you see where Mr Maphetho was? MR SELOANE No, he was on the opposite side of the room. MR KOOPEDI You mean the other side? MR SELOANE On the other side. MR KOOPEDI So you could not see him? MR SELOANE Yes, but we only met when we were running away, because we ran away in the same direction. MR KOOPEDI What type of handgrenade were you having? MR SELOANE I was having the offensive handgrenade. MR KOOPEDI Do you have an idea what type of a handgrenade was he having? MR SELOANE He was having a defensive one. MR KOOPEDI Okay, and your recollection is that he threw his handgrenade after your handgrenade? MR SELOANE We almost threw at the same time, because the explosion was just once, it was almost at the same time or just a difference of seconds. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now do you know if anyone was injured in this operation, injured or killed? MR SELOANE I only learnt later, after a day in the newspapers that George and someone else got injured, I don't know if it was a wife or what, I am not sure. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now this, when this attack happened, we were told that there was reconnaissance done before the attack, were you any part of the reconnaissance? MR SELOANE No, I was not. MR KOOPEDI Okay, now after the attack, what did you do? Where did you go, you said you met ... MR SELOANE After the attack we just ran away and then went home. MR KOOPEDI Now, this attack, would it have been your duty to report it to anyone? MR SELOANE It was a duty for us to inform Stanza about the operation and then whoever he was reporting to, he has to send it there. CHAIRPERSON Did you in fact report it, you yourself, were you there when it was reported to Mr Bopape? MR SELOANE Yes, Akile and I were together with him. MR KOOPEDI And in any event you were members of a Unit? What I was saying is you were members of the Unit, you, yourself, Mr Maphetho and Mr Bopape were members of one Unit? MR SELOANE Yes. MR KOOPEDI For this attack, did you receive any personal gain? MR SELOANE No. MR KOOPEDI Do you think that you have disclosed all the relevant facts relating to this attack to this Honourable Committee? MR SELOANE Yes, I have disclosed everything in the statement and also through the questions, I think I have disclosed everything. MR KOOPEDI Now, do you think to attack Mr George Mathebula, the attack was politically motivated? MR SELOANE Yes, the attack was politically motivated. In the Unit I was part of, Akila was operation's person, Stanza was our Commander and I was the Political Commissar. We were working with Youth Organisations and Student Organisations and as Akila indicated, you know the Police were the enemy of the people because they were in the forefront of the apartheid machinery, there were teargas fired in the schools, churches when we had commemmoration services and they were seen as part of the problem. That is why you know, they were attacked. MR KOOPEDI Now other than you know, what you have said it being a politically motivated, do you also believe that a political objective was achieved by this attack? MR SELOANE Yes, I think a political objective was achieved because as I indicated, the Police and even the soldiers were the ones who were in the forefront of the defence of apartheid, because the community didn't want apartheid but it was always harassed by the soldiers and the Police who were in the township, everywhere and there was no freedom of movement. Even in funerals, the Police were attacking the people and firing teargas on the food that people have to eat after the funeral. A number of youth and students died in the process between January 1985 and the end of 1985. So, that whole process, there was that battle between the Police and the community in general. And in particular, youth and students. MR KOOPEDI Chairperson, that will be the evidence in chief of the second applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Koopedi. Mr Majuja, do you have any questions that you would like to ask this applicant? MR MAJUJA Mr Chairperson, I don't have any questions for this witness. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAJUJA CHAIRPERSON Yes, I realise you represent the Makhudu family, but I am giving you the opportunity if you desire. Ms Mtanga? MS MTANGA No questions, Mr Chairperson. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA CHAIRPERSON Adv Gcabashe? Mr Lax? Mr Seloane, did you receive training, you mentioned that you were a member of MK, did you receive any sort of military training? MR SELOANE Yes, I received training but not outside the country, inside the country in the use of grenades and also the question of Intelligence and counter-intelligence, that training all happened inside the country. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, I think that concludes the evidence of this applicant. WITNESS EXCUSED