amntrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION, AMNESTY HEARING 1999-06-14 EAST LONDON 1 A K MFENE AM8004/97 MUTINY AND KIDNAPPING - BISHO POLICE COLLEGE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=53475&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1999/99061418_eln_990614el.htm CHAIRPERSON Today is Monday 14th June 1999. This is a hearing of the Amnesty Committee sitting at East London. The panel is chaired by myself, Denzil Potgieter. I am assisted by Adv Bosman and Dr Tsotsi. The matter which is on the roll for today is the amnesty application of N R Nkwenkwe and others, in fact 16 others and the amnesty reference of the first applicant Mr Nkwenkwe is AM3563/96. Mr Mapoma, just for our information, how are we proceeding with these matters? MR MAPOMA Thank you, Chairperson. Firstly Chair, for the record my name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader. Mr Chairman, the applicant's legal representative is going to call the witnesses, not in the order necessarily in the bundle here. He will decide which applicant to call first and it will be up to him really. Thank you Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Mapoma. Mr Obose do you want to put yourself on record? MR OBOSE Thank you Mr Chairman. I appear for the applicant in this matter. My name is Obose, initial K. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Mr Obose. For the victims, for the interested parties. MR NOMPOZOLO My name is L B Nompozolo. I appear for 8 of the victims. Their names are Makwethu, Masimini, Gqibithole, Mondo, Ogqoyi, Mbi, Gqoyi, Sawuti and Adoni. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Thank you Mr Nompozolo. We will obtain a list of those interested parties from you in due course, we haven't noted it physically but it is noted on the record. Thank you. MS COLLETT My name is Sally Collett and I'm representing Commissioner Nqoya. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Adv Collett. Mr Obose do you want to proceed with the first applicant? MR OBOSE Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Chairman I have Mr Mfene. His application appears on the paginated bundle from pages 23 to 29. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Is Mr Mfene available? MR OBOSE That's correct, Mr Chairman. KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE (sworn states) MR OBOSE Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Mfene, thank you very much, you may be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mfene just state for the record what work you do and what's your rank and when you started doing the kind of work that you're doing. MR MFENE I am a police on the detective unit. I started on the 20th August 1983 in this unit. MR OBOSE How long have you been a policeman? MR MFENE 29th May 1981. MR OBOSE Now at the time Brig Gqozo was in charge when you took over. Were you already a policeman? MR MFENE That is correct. MR OBOSE During the time in 1994, March, February, those months, where were you stationed? MR MFENE I was stationed in Tamaga police station. MR OBOSE Also in the CID unit? MR MFENE That is correct. MR OBOSE Now could you just state briefly as to what was the political mood at the time, March/April 1994 in Ciskei? MR MFENE At the time the political situation was very bad because there was no understanding between Brig Gqozo, our leaders or our superiors as the police, there was not co-operation between them and Brig Gqozo. MR OBOSE Yes. Are there instances in particular that you can recount to the Commission? MR MFENE I can make examples by saying that first of all there was no co-operation because when we wanted to meet with our superiors when we had grievances, we couldn't meet with them because we would be scared off and we would be told that we would meet him and we knew that when you meet him you will be dismissed from work. MR OBOSE At that stage the whole of South Africa was preparing for elections, isn't that correct? MR MFENE That is correct. MR OBOSE And was Brig Gqozo also making Ciskei to be prepared for that or was he, did he seem not to be of that opinion? MR MFENE He was not prepared for that. He was not even prepared to deal with people who were interested in that. MR OBOSE Now as policemen, had you been maybe informed as to whether you had to prepare for voting etc as would be the case? MR MFENE No, we were not told. MR OBOSE And how was the mood, as you could detect, amongst the police officials with regard to this situation? MR MFENE We didn't know what was happening or what Brig Gqozo and the superiors were doing. There was nothing which showed that the vote or the elections would be free in Ciskei. MR OBOSE Now is it correct that Brig Gqozo also had a certain party that he was having? CHAIRPERSON Yes, do we have a difficulty with the translation or what? INTERPRETER It's a technical problem, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Just hold on a minute. MR OBOSE Thank you. Can you hear me? Thanks. Is it correct that Brig Gqozo was having a certain party at the time? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. He was having the soldiers. MR OBOSE Now, was there or was there no particular conflict at the time between political parties? MR MFENE Yes there was conflict because it was after the Bisho massacre in 1990. The political organisations, they were in conflict with Brig Gqozo. MR OBOSE And the mood ground towards Brig Gqozo? MR MFENE People at the time, some of them were scared of him, so they were loyal to him. MR OBOSE Now on the - now the policemen, how were the policemen? Were they unanimous supporting him or were they divided? MR MFENE They were divided. He was not supported by majority of police. When I am referring to the majority, I'm referring to those with the lower ranks. MR OBOSE So the non-commissioned policemen generally were not supportive of Brig Gqozo? MR MFENE No. MR OBOSE Now in April 1996, this was now the month before the general election which was in May, was there any kind of activism that you could detect amongst the non-commissioned officers with regard to the role of Brig Gqozo? MR MFENE The police were not satisfied at all about Brig Gqozo and that also affected the superiors because there was conflict between the police with lower ranks and the superiors. MR OBOSE And the commissioned officers, were they generally seen as being pro Brig Gqozo or at least scared of Brig Gqozo? MR MFENE Some of them supported him. Some of them supported him because they were afraid. Some of them supported him because they were told to do so by others. MR OBOSE Now there was some feeling at the time amongst civil servants, I wouldn't know whether this was shared by the police, that pension monies had to be paid out to the civil servants etc. Were the police of this opinion? MR MFENE Yes, the police had those opinions because what would happen is that each and every department would be informed what was going to happen about their money when the present government would take over. It was only the police who were not aware or who didn't know what was going on because there was nobody who was informing the police about what was going on, or what was going to happen. MR OBOSE Is it correct that the civil servants in Ciskei at the time also took the department concerned to court with regard to the question of pensions in the Bisho High Court? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR OBOSE Were the police part of these applicants? Were they applicants or the police didn't take part in that application to court? MR MFENE The police didn't take part in that because they didn't have somebody who would represent them from their superiors and that happened even though that was the case, the police did join it but it was not properly done amongst the police. MR OBOSE So in other words the picture, would I be correct to say the picture was that the police didn't know exactly which way they were going because there was no feedback that they were getting from the senior officers or anyone in government responsible for the police? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct, it was like that. MR OBOSE Now, a meeting was at some stage held in April on the 15th, is that correct? At the Bisho police college. MR MFENE It was on the 22nd of March. MR OBOSE Please sketch the background and how this meeting was organised and by whom. MR MFENE This meeting, as some of us were responsible in separate offices, we were commanders in separate offices, in different offices, because we didn't know what was happening, we would meet as the police and discuss our future and then it happened that fortunately we received a message from the commissioner of the time. We then decided to meet at that place and discuss what was going to happen. MR OBOSE Which place was this? MR MFENE Police college in Bisho. MR OBOSE I just want you to specify, I mean was this to include all the policemen or certain, or the branch commanders only, this meeting? MR MFENE This meeting, all the inspectors, all the male inspectors were called in this meeting. It was only the male inspectors who were called. MR OBOSE No, it was said it's been called by the commissioner. MR MFENE I would like to explain this way. We received messages that the commissioner would call us on a certain date and then when we were preparing ourselves to go to that meeting, that would be cancelled. We would be called again and then when we were preparing to go to that meeting we would then be told that it has been cancelled, we would be given another date. Then on this occasion we were called and indeed we went there, we didn't receive a message that it had been cancelled. We then went to the hall in the police college on the 22nd March. MR OBOSE How were you called to this meeting, over your police radios or by announcement in the media, the radio, Radio Ciskei etc? MR MFENE There was a correspondence which we received in our offices saying that on the 22nd of March the commissioner would like to see us. MR OBOSE Were these letters under the hand of the commissioner? Were they, had they been signed by the commissioner, or from the commissioner's office? MR MFENE It was signed by the DC in Zwelitsha because the commissioner would send a message to the DC in Zwelitsha and the DC would call the station commanders and the branch commanders and give them the message. MR OBOSE Did this correspondence specify as to what was to be the agenda? MR MFENE No. MR OBOSE Did you then maybe as branch commanders, or as inspectors, discuss maybe that, what issues you would place on the agenda in the meeting? MR MFENE As branch commanders and members who were in my rank, we had hoped that the commissioner would speak to us and then we would then give the report to the police with lower ranks. This is what we thought was going to happen, even though we also had our grievances, because we would be called to a meeting and we would be told that it has been cancelled even though we wanted to go to that meeting. MR OBOSE Now, did you maybe have a certain list, you know saying that we're going to place these issues on the agenda for the commissioner to answer to? MR MFENE Yes. MR OBOSE Could you list maybe a few? MR MFENE Yes, I can list them. First of all it was our future as the Ciskei police. MR OBOSE Could you just be a little bit specific there, what do you mean by future, what were you apprehensions at the time? MR MFENE What we thought about at the time is that our officers were close to Brig Gqozo and the government of the time, or the present government was said, they said that if we did not co-operate with that government we would be out of work, so we wanted to know what was going to happen to us when the government was changed. We just wanted to know about our future. MR OBOSE Any other item? MR MFENE Secondly, there was an officer that was found guilty in a court of law. He was sentenced after he was suspended but under that commissioner, that police was returned back to work even though he was found guilty and he was given an order to give back or hand over the money he had supposedly taken and we didn't get any explanation about what was happening about that particular officer. MR OBOSE So you wanted to raise this issue and inquire from him as to how the policeman got to be back at work? MR MFENE Yes. MR OBOSE Now you personally went to this meeting? MR MFENE Yes. MR OBOSE With whom were you, did you go? MR MFENE With the majority of male inspectors as the commissioner had wanted them there. MR OBOSE What time did you get to Bisho Police College? MR MFENE At 9 o'clock in the morning because the meeting was scheduled to start at that time. MR OBOSE I'm going to ask you just to relate the whole story for the Commission please. What then happened? Try to be as chronological as possible. MR MFENE When we arrived there at the college we had hoped that we were going to meet our commissioner and we would discuss issues as the police. We were surprised that there were other, there were inspectors who told us that the elections would go in a certain way. That is when I stood up and said that we were expecting to see the commissioner. We are not against the election, we wanted to vote and wanted to see what our future was going to be, but we were there to see the commissioner. MR OBOSE Do you remember which policeman addressed you, which inspector? Was it part of the group that's been called or part of the policemen who worked at the Bisho police college? MR MFENE No, he was not part of that group. It was the two inspectors who were addressing us from the college. MR OBOSE Do you remember their names? MR MFENE Yes, I do remember their names. MR OBOSE Just place them on the record please. MR MFENE It's late Inspector Suys and Captain Falteng. MR OBOSE Did they purport to be sent by the commissioner? MR MFENE They said that they have a message about how the election is going to go about, they didn't say that they were sent by the commissioner or they didn't say that the commissioner sent them. MR OBOSE Now this meeting, were all inspectors as you could determine, from Ciskei mostly, at least there? MR MFENE Majority of the male inspectors were there. MR OBOSE What then happened after you had objected and insisted that you had gone there to see the commissioner and where was he? MR MFENE The two inspectors, they went out and called the commanding officer, Brig Kuwuza, who is no longer working now. They called him, he was there in the college, they called him to come and address us. When he arrived there we asked for commissioner Nqoya, the one who called us to that meeting, because there were some issues we wanted to discuss with him. MR OBOSE Yes and what did they say? MR MFENE He didn't waste time. He made a call. He said that he was going to call him, he made a telephone call and after some few, after some time we were outside the hall and Commissioner Nqoya arrived. MR OBOSE What time was this now roughly? MR MFENE If I can estimate, it was before 11 o'clock. MR OBOSE That same morning? MR MFENE Yes. MR OBOSE Was he alone? MR MFENE Yes, he was alone. MR OBOSE Did he then proceed to the hall, or he went to some other office? MR MFENE He went to the hall. He called us inside. MR OBOSE Also by this time when you waited for him you had dispersed and you were outside the hall and you were grouped what he came, when he arrived? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR OBOSE Right and then? MR MFENE When he arrived I could see that he was angry but I still spoke to him even though he seemed as if he was angry. He then asked for some time because he said he wanted to meet with Brig Gqozo because he had to have a meeting at 11 o'clock that morning with Brig Gqozo. He then said that after that meeting he would then address us, after meeting with Brig Gqozo. MR OBOSE You spoke to him. Were you asked to, in a sense, lead this group of officers or was it by virtue of your seniority etc? Why did you yourself speak to him? MR MFENE We discussed this issue amongst the police and they said that I must be the one who speaks to him. MR OBOSE Which other inspector was to do the negotiations? MR MFENE As he was angry and as I was talking to him, the other inspectors were also talking, I didn't notice who they were. MR OBOSE What was the mood now in the house when it became apparent that he wouldn't sit in session but had to see Brig Gqozo first? MR MFENE There was nothing, nothing happened at that time because he requested us to give him a chance to meet with Brig Gqozo first and then he would then come back to us. MR OBOSE Did you specify as to what he wanted to discuss with Brig Gqozo or he just said "I'm going to see Brig Gqozo"? MR MFENE He said to us that amongst the issues he was going to discuss with Brig Gqozo, there was this issue about the pension of the police. MR OBOSE Did he then leave? MR MFENE Yes, he left but before leaving we had a request that before he would leave, we were asking that when he was discussing the pension issue and the future of the police, we wanted him to take along the other police - we wanted other police to come, not only the male inspectors, we wanted them to come and hear what the commissioner was saying. MR OBOSE So you asked him that this invitation be extended to other policemen as well? MR MFENE Yes that is correct. MR OBOSE What did he say? MR MFENE He agreed. He didn't waste time, he just agreed. He said "that is okay, you can call other police, they can also come and listen for themselves." MR OBOSE And were they then called, the other policemen? MR MFENE Yes they were called. MR OBOSE You mean from throughout Ciskei, as it then was? MR MFENE Yes, throughout Ciskei the police were called and they came and other police who were in the college, they were also called to that meeting. They were also there and waited for the commissioner. MR OBOSE And the commissioned officers, were they also called or did they come? MR MFENE Yes the commissioned officers were also called and the senior officers, they arrived and they were there. MR OBOSE Now you then waited for Commissioner Nqoya to come back. What happened? MR MFENE We waited and waited. He arrived in the morning the next day. As he left at about 11 on this particular day, he came back the following morning and I think that all the police were going to give up because we were waiting for him. MR OBOSE Now when the police gathered at Bisho college, who were then left to man the police stations? MR MFENE There were other police who were there at the police stations, who were left behind. MR OBOSE What then happened, what occurred in the meantime, in the afternoon and the early evening at the Bisho police college? MR MFENE When we were waiting there Mr Goosen arrived and Mr Finqa. Mr Jurgens and others arrived. They said that they heard about what was happening in the Ciskei. They were there to listen for themselves. They were trying to solve the problem. They were there to listen to all the complaints, the police complaints. MR OBOSE So they came on their own accord, no delegation was sent to call them? MR MFENE No delegation was called. MR OBOSE Roughly what time did they come in there? MR MFENE They arrived during the night, I think at about 9 at night, that's when they arrived. They didn't arrive at the same time. Mr Jurgens arrived in the morning and others arrived at night. MR OBOSE After Commissioner Nqoya had left? MR MFENE After Commissioner Nqoya arrived. MR OBOSE Mr Jurgens, what connection did he have with the police at the time, if any? MR MFENE Mr Jurgens was an Attorney-General in Ciskei at the time. He was also the minister of the police. MR OBOSE What did he do when he got there? MR MFENE He listened and then he said to me, at the police station there were no police who were left there at the police stations so he said that I must try and send other police at the police stations because we'll be charged for mutiny if there are no police that would be sent at the police stations. MR OBOSE What did he listen to, I mean what was he told when he got there? MR MFENE Mr Jurgens was told about things that happened or things that were happening in the Ciskei, that police were not taken care of, the police money was misused and the families of the police were not treated well by the senior officials. He listened to all that and he was told that the situation was bad because Brig Gqozo was against the free election in the Ciskei and if Brig Gqozo was in the Ciskei, the election would not be free, that's why the police were there. MR OBOSE What was his response, if any? MR MFENE He said that he promised that everything would be fine. MR OBOSE Did he respond specifically to this complaint against Brig Gqozo, that he promised to take it up with him etc? MR MFENE He did mention the fact that he received messages from Pik Botha in Pretoria that Brig Gqozo had telephoned him and that he said that the police were against him in the Ciskei so he wanted to resign at that time, so he said that we must not worry about Brig Gqozo. MR OBOSE What then happened? Did he leave after that, Mr Jurgens, or did he stay until the other people that you've mentioned had arrived? MR MFENE He stayed there, he didn't leave. MR OBOSE Now the afternoon and the evening, what was going on at the hall? MR MFENE At the evening while we were still waiting there, there were some issues that were coming up and we found out that the senior police wanted to have positions in the new government. They forgot about the lower rank policemen. As we were the ones who were working, they were not interested in us, they wanted to get positions and we also addressed that in the meeting. MR OBOSE So in other words the meeting did continue and issues were raised and discussed? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR OBOSE The senior officers that got there and some were obviously in certain responsible positions, were they made to account for certain things? MR MFENE No, I wouldn't say so. The person I was focusing on was the commissioner as he was the head of the police in the Ciskei. That's the person, I wanted to know from him what was happening. MR OBOSE Was anybody forced to attend the meeting, or having attended the meeting, refused the right to leave the meeting? MR MFENE There was no one who was forced and there was no one who was refused permission to leave. I would say that the majority of people who were there, they were there on their own because it was not easy to go to a person and say come on this side because the senior police would drive their cars. We would see them coming inside the hall and they would sit down and give them seats because we respected them. MR OBOSE Where did they sit in the hall, the officers? MR MFENE All the officers were on the grandstand. MR OBOSE So you mean the podium as where the Commissioners are seated? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR OBOSE Were any questions posed to them maybe in the interim while you were waiting for Commissioner Nqoya? MR MFENE Yes, there were people who were asking questions from those officers. They would respond, the officers would respond and nobody showed any or they didn't show that they were against this. MR OBOSE Was anyone refused the right to leave that meeting? MR MFENE There was a chance for us to refuse permission because we were afraid that the commissioner would come back and see that the police were not all there and then he would then postpone the meeting for another day and we were against that because we were focusing on the elections at the time. We were not focusing on that meeting in particular, but we wanted everybody to be there so that when the commissioner comes back, according to his request, he would see all the police sitting there. MR OBOSE So the mood and the feeling was that this meeting has to decide this issue finally? MR MFENE Yes, that's correct. MR OBOSE Now, did Commissioner Nqoya, you say he came back in the early hours of the morning. Did he come back on his own or, okay, let me put it this way - naturally when the waiting you know drew on, did people get agitated to be in the hall? I mean were the people saying let's go and look for him and why is he keeping us waiting here? MR MFENE As we could see that he was not coming back, because he said that he was going to have a meeting at 11 o'clock, we gave him time. At about 1 o'clock we expected him to be at lunch. After 2 o'clock people were sent to look for him and those people came back and said that he was coming back. We waited and waited and after some time we sent other people and they came back again and said that they could not find him and we could see that those who were sent at the first time would go back after others and look for him because we saw him coming in. The following day in the morning he was together with the police and the soldiers. MR OBOSE Did he explain as to why he had kept everyone waiting? MR MFENE Yes, he tried to explain even though he did not give a full report because he was scared. MR OBOSE He was scared to come back to the meeting. Is that what you said? He was scared to come back. MR MFENE Yes, he said that he was scared. MR OBOSE Did the meeting continue? MR MFENE Yes the meeting continued. MR OBOSE Did he address the issues? MR MFENE Yes, he addressed the issues and we asked him firstly what were we supposed to do as the Ciskeian police because the Ciskei would be taken over by South Africa and we wanted to know when that was going to happen because we thought that when he was addressing us at the meeting he would include all those factors. He would just say that is easy, I would do this and that. MR OBOSE Did he report back to you as to what happened at the meeting between him and Brig Gqozo? MR MFENE No he didn't report to us. MR OBOSE Did soldiers attend this meeting or did they find their way to the Bisho police college? MR MFENE The soldiers arrived in the morning, at about 4 o'clock in the morning. MR OBOSE Did they say why they were there? MR MFENE When they arrived they told us that they found out that Brig Gqozo had resigned because of what we did at the college, so they wanted to know whether they can join us or not because they also had their complaints. We didn't take note of that, we just told them that we were preparing or we were building up our positions because they were close to Brig Gqozo, now that he has resigned they wanted to join us. MR OBOSE So they had not been sent to disrupt your meeting, according to them? MR MFENE Some of them said that they were there to disrupt the meeting. We then told them that they had no right to do that, they were not supposed to do that to us. MR OBOSE When did this first group of soldiers arrive, the one that told you that they'd been sent to disperse you? MR MFENE They arrived before 4, there were very few of them and then after we chased them away, a lot of soldiers then came and they were amongst us. MR OBOSE So the first group was chased away? MR MFENE Yes. MR OBOSE Okay. And the second group is the one that wanted to join you, telling you that Brig Gqozo resigned? MR MFENE The second group, they were the ones who asked to join us and then we didn't trust them because they were close to Brig Gqozo, they were his soldiers and when they said that they were going to join us we did not trust them, we just gave them seats and we told them how to sit amongst us, but we then found out that indeed they were there to join us. MR OBOSE Were there any reports maybe that were received during the course of the meeting about some build-up, military build-up around Bisho town, stadium etc or some military activity? MR MFENE As I've already said, the soldiers were under Brig Gqozo and our senior officers. When the soldiers were complaining Brig Gqozo would call them as they were in the Tamaga area from the airport and all the villages in the Tamaga, they were under my area, and they were under me. All the meetings, I would know about the particular meetings, if they had meetings at the airport. When the soldiers had complaints they would be called in the meeting and then everything would be arranged and their meetings with Brig Gqozo I would observe them. MR OBOSE So you are saying now the police felt that Brig Gqozo was ignoring them, but attending to the soldiers? MR MFENE That was not the only problem, he didn't care about the police and he was even getting assistance from the senior officers. MR OBOSE Now did this meeting at some stage come to an end? MR MFENE The meeting came to an end the following day. We left the college and we went to the Bisho stadium. Some people went to the stadium but I was in the group that went somewhere else. There were criminal cases that were under investigation. Those cases were concerning some of the senior officers and Commissioner Nqoya was among those people who were under investigation. There were those cases. I left there with him and others went to their offices at Bisho but the meeting ended up at the stadium the following day. MR OBOSE Why did you have to go to the stadium? MR MFENE There was a promise that said Brig Gqozo was going to address all the civil servants on that particular date at the stadium. We were so united as the police. All those things that were lacking were addressed. After meeting at the college, we united and decided to go there together so as to meet with the other public servants at the stadium, to listen to Brig Gqozo. MR OBOSE Did he address the people, Brig Gqozo, that morning? MR MFENE As I've already explained, I left for the area commissioner's offices. There were other police who went to the stadium. I don't know whether he came or he didn't, but I did not go to the stadium. When the people dispersed I was still at the commissioner's offices, I was not at the stadium. MR OBOSE Do you know people by the name of Henry de Wet and Raymond Peter Simms? Henry de Wet Oosthuizen and Raymond Peter Simms? MR OBOSE I know those white people, I saw them there. Yes, I know them, they were policemen. MR OBOSE Were they commissioned officers, or not? MR MFENE I used to see them among the Ciskei police. I don't know anything about their ranks but I used to see them there. We were not told anything about them. We used to see them going in and coming out. MR OBOSE So they were not attached to any of the police stations in Ciskei that you know of? MR MFENE No, I used to see them at Bisho among the other senior officers that I'm talking about. MR OBOSE Were they at any stage restrained from leaving the hall? MR MFENE I have said that each and every policeman who was present there, it might happen that they were told, it might happen but that was never mentioned, but they just thought that they were being restrained but what was important was that our honourable commissioner should come and find all the policemen there, all the police who belonged to Ciskei region, as they were told to come and listen. Perhaps they were also among those. MR OBOSE So the hall was full, was packed, I would imagine. MR MFENE Yes, it was packed. MR OBOSE Would it have been easy to come in and out of the hall? MR MFENE It wouldn't be that easy. It was very difficult, that hall was fully packed, even outside. MR OBOSE So other people were following the proceedings through the windows from the outside? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR OBOSE Now, were the police, junior policemen happy with the continued rule of Brig Gqozo on the whole? Were the non-commissioned officers on the whole happy with the rule of Brig Gqozo, as you could see things? MR MFENE No, they were not happy at all and they were not the only people, not the people at lower ranks who were dissatisfied. Brig Gqozo would even do something like, if he had something that was done by a police fresh from the college, he would demote that policeman. All the police were not very happy about Gqozo. MR OBOSE Now when Adv Jurgens told you that you would be charged for mutiny etc, what was the mood in the house? What became the mood? MR MFENE As he was telling this, Mr Jurgens that is, it was the following morning. At least they claim it was a bit calm, there were no hooligans or whatever as the people think, it was calm and we had told him that it was a mistake that there was no one at the police stations. There were people who were there and there was a communication over the radios. They were also there in the police station. MR OBOSE Was there any demand made that Brig Gqozo also attend the meeting in person? MR MFENE I cannot remember anything about that. We did not meet him there in that meeting. The only thing that we were looking forward to, we wanted those police who were being used by him, we wanted to tell them whatever and then they would go to Gqozo and tell him what was happening, but when he heard the news and then he decided to leave his office. MR OBOSE What do you mean when you use the word using, pressurise the senior officers, given that context? MR MFENE What I'm trying to say is this, the pain that we were enduring because of Brig Gqozo, we had no other way of communicating that pain, the only way - it was very difficult to communicate with him, we would only communicate with the police. MR OBOSE Do you know as to maybe - have you since established as to maybe when Brig Gqozo did resign? I'm asking now, you. MR MFENE According to the report that I received on that particular day on the 22nd of March, just before 12 midnight Brig Gqozo had already phoned the Pretoria office and he had told them that he had resigned. MR OBOSE Did he cite any reason as far as you could establish? MR MFENE He said that we had overthrown him as the police. MR OBOSE Was this communicated to you, the police, or maybe you heard that from Adv Jurgens? MR MFENE What happened was this. At the time when all this was happening, the people were coming in and out and then early in the morning we heard that Brig Gqozo - when these soldiers were coming they told us that Brig Gqozo had resigned the day before, after he heard the news that we were meeting at the hall. Most of the people told us about this, the media people told us, the soldiers told us, so as different people. MR OBOSE Would you say the police who were there were generally of the opinion that Gqozo had to go and had to go fast or any action that may have been translated to achieve that objective? MR MFENE Yes, I can say so. MR OBOSE Could you elaborate? MR MFENE All I can say is this. As we were saying that we were going to our superiors, he would get access to the police through our seniors and when he hears that our seniors are confused, they don't know what to do if the police in the lower ranks were doing that and then he lost hope, then he decided to leave his position or his office. MR OBOSE Thank you, Mr Commissioner, nothing further. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Obose. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE CHAIRPERSON We'll take the adjournment until 2 o'clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Mr Obose is your evidence in chief concluded? MR OBOSE Yes, yes, Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Nompozolo have you got any questions? MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you, Mr Chairman, yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO Mr Mfene, I understood your evidence to be that on the 22nd of March 1994, there was a meeting called by the commissioner of police in Ciskei. MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO Now, the meeting, was it a meeting of a certain rank of policeman, or was it a meeting of all the policemen in the Ciskei? MR MFENE It was a meeting for certain ranks in the police force. MR NOMPOZOLO What ranks were those? MR MFENE It was warrant officers. MR NOMPOZOLO Now you have applied for an amnesty, what is it that you have committed? MR MFENE A charge of mutiny was placed against me. MR NOMPOZOLO You have applied for amnesty, what is it that you have committed, not what you've been charged with? MR MFENE It is because I was part of what was happening at the college. MR NOMPOZOLO What is it that you were - I mean, you were lawfully called into a meeting and when you were called into the meeting you duly attended the meeting. Now what offence have you committed? MR MFENE I would ask you to allow me to say that a charge was laid against me after I was called to the meeting. I was sentenced for mutiny. MR NOMPOZOLO So, if I understand your evidence well, you only applied for amnesty because you have been charged and convicted of mutiny, is that what you're saying? MR MFENE There is another fine, something like a civil claim, that is laid against me. MR NOMPOZOLO So all you're looking for is to be absolved from the civil claim and to have amnesty for the conviction of mutiny? MR MFENE Another reason is that I would like my movement to be taken as political movement, not criminal offences, rather political offences. MR NOMPOZOLO What were the movements? MR MFENE Because Brig Gqozo is not a leader in Ciskei today, it's because of my movements. By calling together police and discussing with them, he had to leave his office. MR NOMPOZOLO Let's get something straight. You never called any meeting of the police, you were called to the meeting, is that clear? MR MFENE You did not get me clearly as I was giving evidence here. I said sometimes we would meet as police because of things that were happening in our daily lives. MR NOMPOZOLO Yes, but you have not disclosed that to the Commission, have you? MR MFENE That is the reason that led me to be here before this Commission. MR NOMPOZOLO Yes, but that would be an application for amnesty to overthrow the government and that's not your application today. MR MFENE I listed everything. MR NOMPOZOLO Thus far I may just tell you, Mr Mfene, that I am representing about 9 people. Now I will tell you who are those and please tell the Commission if you've done anything to them. Makwethu, Masimini, Gqibithole, Mondo, Ogqoyi, Mbi, Gqoyi, Sawuti and Adoni. Now you've never mentioned any of those names when you were giving your evidence in chief, not so? MR MFENE No. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Nompozolo, just go a bit slower. Just start again with that list of names please. MR NOMPOZOLO I'm sorry. M-A-K-W-E-T-H-U, M-A-S-I-M-I-N-I-G-Q-I-B-I-T-H-O-L-E, M-O-N-D-O, O-G-Q-O-Y-I, M-B-I, G-Q-O-Y-I, S-A-W-U-T-I, A-D-O-N-I. CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much. MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you Mr Chairperson. Now you've heard the names of the people I've called? MR MFENE Yes. MR NOMPOZOLO Have you done anything to them on the 22nd and 23rd of March 1994? MR MFENE No. MR NOMPOZOLO Therefore would I be correct to say you are not applying for amnesty in respect of them? MR MFENE Will you please tell me their role in this case? MR NOMPOZOLO I'm not in a position to answer questions. I have to ask you questions. So you're not applying for amnesty in respect of them, not so? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO Mr Chairperson, I think then my mandate ends there because if he's not applying for amnesty in respect of them, then I've got no instruction to proceed beyond that. CHAIRPERSON You say you don't have further questions. MR NOMPOZOLO Because he is not applying for amnesty in respect of them, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Well, I'm not sure if you are not, if the two of you are not at cross purposes. The applicant seems to have asked what role these people have played, so it doesn't look as if he understands where they fit into the picture. Isn't it possible for you to just give him an idea, perhaps that might illicit some response from him? MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Mfene, on your application you have mentioned, there is a Sec 9 (a) (iv) "Nature and Particulars - deprived liberty and held hostage, conspired with, incited other persons to cause mutiny." Is that the nature of your application? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO So who did you hold hostage? MR MFENE According to the case, or a charge that was laid against me, it is said that those were the officers who laid those charges, the officers from the former Ciskei. That was according to the charges that were laid. MR NOMPOZOLO Anyway, did you commit the offence in question? MR MFENE The court found me guilty and I was sentenced. MR NOMPOZOLO Is it correct that in court you pleaded guilty? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO And is it correct that the charge sheet was written as follows, that you were charged with kidnapping, 50 counts, and you were also charged with mutiny in contravention of section 3 (a) and 3 (b) of schedule 3 to the Police Act No. 32/1983? MR MFENE Yes, it was like that. MR NOMPOZOLO Yes, and did you plead guilty to that? MR MFENE About kidnapping or mutiny, which one are you referring to? MR NOMPOZOLO To kidnapping. MR MFENE No. MR NOMPOZOLO Did you plead guilty to mutiny? MR MFENE Yes. MR NOMPOZOLO But when I listened to your evidence, there was nothing on your evidence which suggested that you've committed any mutiny. Do you agree with me? MR MFENE After it was explained that my offence or what I did was mutiny, a charge was laid and it was explained that that act was mutiny and I pleaded guilty and I was sentenced. MR NOMPOZOLO When you pleaded guilty did you consider yourself as a person who had committed mutiny? MR MFENE Yes, because of the way it was explained to me, I saw it as an offence that I did. What was explained to me was this, as Mr Jurgens had told me that they say that the police who were not at the police station were going to be charged for mutiny if there's no clarification. To him it means that was never clarified, then we were charged. It is when you disobey the instruction, but it was explained in different ways and they said it's not the police who can do that, but it's only the army. That is how they explained it, but though it was explained that way they have found me guilty and I was sentenced. MR NOMPOZOLO Anyway, I've got instruction from the people I'm representing that some of the police, including yourself, of the former Ciskei on the 22nd were carrying firearms and those firearms were pointed at the officers who were forced to move out of either their offices or their homes, forcefully, to the police college. What are you saying to that? MR MFENE I cannot dispute that though I was not present in that group of people. There was a large number of policemen there. MR NOMPOZOLO My further instructions are that the officers were held hostage at Bisho police college from the 22nd until the 23rd of March 1994. They were held hostage at gun-point. MR MFENE Yes, I cannot dispute that too, we were all there at the college. MR NOMPOZOLO And I am further instructed that you, together with other policemen, you demanded the keys of the armoury and you, together with other policemen, you took out firearms from the armoury. MR MFENE I cannot dispute that too though I was not present in that group of people. MR NOMPOZOLO And I am instructed that whilst the officers were seated separately from other policemen, you were busy inciting them and amongst other things, you were saying they were corrupt, they have misappropriated funds and that was the reason why they were brought there. MR MFENE Yes, that is one of the things that we were talking about and we discussed that and we clarified that issue. MR NOMPOZOLO Still under the belief that the policemen, the officers in question, were corrupt and misappropriated funds, they were arrested and charged in the court of law and they were found not guilty. MR MFENE I dispute that. As that was happening those police were under investigation, the charges were already laid. No policeman was ever arrested after that and no police was ever taken to court, they had their previous cases. MR NOMPOZOLO Now do you dispute that Sawuti, Adoni, Gqibithole, Makwethu, Nqoya and another policeman were charged for fraud subsequent to them being taken hostage by yourselves? Do you dispute that? MR MFENE Yes, I dispute that. I am saying they had cases pending against them. We wanted to get results because their cases couldn't go further and no one knew what was happening and it was just quiet. MR NOMPOZOLO I've got here a copy of their charge sheets and as a policeman I challenge you to tell me this, if the CR Number of the case is 11/3/94, does indeed that point that the case or the docket was opened in March 1994? MR MFENE I want you to understand that if they say it's the 22nd of the month, at this police station such as Bisho, the CR of that particular police station is up to 35 or 40, not at 11. That proves that this case was opened just before the incident that took place at the college. MR NOMPOZOLO Now you are obviously speculating about that, but the fact that it is March, it is 3/94, it shows that the case was reported in March 1994, am I correct? MR MFENE You might be telling the truth. There could be a case on the 2nd of March and 5th of March, but on the 22nd of March towards the end of the month, the CR is folded or completed, it cannot be saying 11 at Bisho at that particular moment. MR NOMPOZOLO Now, let's leave the issue of the CR. Let's go back to my question. Is it correct Mr Mfene that the officers were brought into the hall pointed with firearms? MR MFENE I said I am not going to dispute that because they know Mr Mfene and they know the people who had pointed them with guns, so they are the people who are in a position to explain that better. I did not do that to them. MR NOMPOZOLO Is it correct, Mr Mfene, that officers were taken out of their offices at gun point by you and other policemen? MR MFENE At the time the officers were taken out of their offices during my presence, it was taking place in the college premises. No firearms were pointed at people. Only a few officers were there and we went to tell them that the commissioner told us to go and wait there for him at the hall. There was no wrestling, they just stood up nicely and we went to wait at the hall. MR NOMPOZOLO Do you still remember the officers you were personally involved when they were told to go to the hall? MR MFENE Yes, I still remember them. It was Brig Bungusa and two white policemen and they say those policemen were seconded to Ciskei police, they were at the college at the time. Those are the only people that I can still remember because they were in the office. I remember telling them that message, but I did not go to any other place. MR NOMPOZOLO Now I just want to know, because from your evidence you have never committed any offence, why did you ask for amnesty because you've deprived liberty and held hostage, conspired with or incited other persons to cause mutiny, why did you apply for that? MR MFENE There reason for me to apply for amnesty, after that I ended up believing that I committed an offence that is mutiny, and I was given a suspended sentence, that is why I am here today to ask for amnesty. MR NOMPOZOLO So, is it also correct that there have been some civil claims against you? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO Now obviously your aim of applying for amnesty is just that you want the sentence to be done away with and also you want the civil claims to be - you don't want to pay in respect of the civil claims? MR MFENE No, that is not correct. The reason for me to apply for amnesty is because perhaps the other police were not in the same position that I was in, or they were not there in that situation, but they ended up being involved and the other policemen were, found themselves in a difficult position because of the action that I took and I then apply for amnesty for all those things. It's a combination of reasons. MR NOMPOZOLO No, no, Mr Mfene. Mr Mfene you were called to a meeting by the commissioner. In the meeting like other policemen who were there, you were asking questions, wanting clarification and by doing so you did not commit any offence. Am I correct? MR MFENE No, you have missed it because after this - as you are explaining it simple like that, there was a case that was laid, a case of kidnapping and mutiny after that whole incident, that is why today I am forced to apply for amnesty. MR NOMPOZOLO Because you have been sentenced for mutiny. MR MFENE Because of the fact that this case was explained thoroughly to me and the court found me guilty. MR NOMPOZOLO No, the court found you guilty after you pleaded guilty. MR MFENE Yes, after this concept was explained to me. MR NOMPOZOLO Can you tell the Commission what is it that was explained to you so that we are on the same wavelength? MR MFENE What was explained to me by my legal representative at the time was that the action that I took together with the other policemen, that there should be no rest on that particular night, there were people also who complained about not sleeping, that sleeping right was taken away from them, and they were taken hostage by the other police. That is when I understood that was mutiny and I understood, I beg your pardon that was hostage, and they were in a very difficult position. Our aim was to remove Mr Gqozo so that there should be no problems in Ciskei, but then after they had explained to me that way, I pleaded guilty. MR NOMPOZOLO No, no. Still on the explanation you have given just now, it entitles the magistrate to enter a plea of not guilty. There is no way, on the explanation you are making, that you could have been found guilty. So I put it to you that you are not telling the Commission the truth. MR MFENE Will you please clarify on that? MR NOMPOZOLO On the explanation that other policemen committed some offences which are unknown to you, you could not have been found guilty on that because you even explained to your attorney that you did not have an intention to do what those people were doing. In any event you didn't do it, therefore you couldn't have been found guilty. MR MFENE I could be found guilty in the sense that among these police, there were other police who had made statements and they removed themselves from this and it became clear that I'm the one who had coerced these people to do that. That is why today I am applying for amnesty. MR NOMPOZOLO You never forced anybody on the 22nd and the 23rd to commit any offence, am I correct? MR MFENE Where does this concept of mutiny and kidnapping come from because I was not alone when I was charged and I was not alone when I was found guilty, but I am here today and I am here alone to apply for amnesty. MR NOMPOZOLO Can you tell the Commission the offence you have committed because I've been trying to get that from you? I'm not asking you to tell the Commission what you have been convicted of, I'm asking you to tell the Commission what offence you have committed. MR MFENE The offence was to overthrow Gqozo as the leader of Ciskei. MR NOMPOZOLO Certain you did not do that. Tell the Commission what is the offence you have committed. MR MFENE Will you please explain to me why is Gqozo not there today if he was not removed by the action that I took with the other policemen? MR NOMPOZOLO Let's put it differently. Suppose you've overthrown Brig Gqozo, now you are not making an application for that here, not so? You are making an application for amnesty for the acts of hostage and mutiny and kidnapping, all those. MR MFENE I would like the Commission to understand that if the policemen who are laying charges are among the police who were very close to Gqozo, because when this was happening the intention was to remove Gqozo from his position. After he had moved away from his position, such cases came about. MR NOMPOZOLO You have not committed any offence in respect of the victims who are here now, have you? DR TSOTSI I'd just like to intervene here please. Are you saying that the forcible removal of Gqozo from power here is not an act of mutiny? MR NOMPOZOLO It could be an act of mutiny but thus far that's not what he has committed against the victims. The victims are saying that they were taken hostage from their homes, they were kidnapped, taken hostage, kept at police college and subsequently charged for fraud. DR TSOTSI Yes that is another offence, isn't it, separate from the offence of mutiny, but what I'm trying to get at is, are you saying that the forcible removal of Brig Gqozo from power was not an act of mutiny? MR NOMPOZOLO It could have been but the point is, on his evidence, he did not commit mutiny, on his evidence. Other people might have committed it, but him, he has not. DR TSOTSI You haven't really answered my question. I won't press it further. I want to find out whether the removal of Brig Gqozo from power forcibly was not an act of mutiny, never mind by whom, was that not an act of mutiny by those who committed that act? MR NOMPOZOLO It was not an act of mutiny because, up to now, what the evidence is all about, it's about junior officers taking hostage senior officers. DR TSOTSI I understand that, but that's a separate matter for me. That's another matter altogether as far as I'm concerned. I understand your argument but the applicant has not shown that your clients were involved in the kidnapping or any other offence, that's what I understand your argument to be. But I'm not happy about your references to mutiny itself or that. Now if in fact the removal of Gqozo from power was an act of mutiny and the applicant here associated himself politically with that act, never mind whether or not he actually took part in the actual physical removal, if he associated himself with that act, would he not be, on the principal of common purpose, be in fact involved in that act himself? MR NOMPOZOLO It can if it was the mutiny he was applying for amnesty for. My point is that he is applying for mutiny which he has not even committed. DR TSOTSI Why do you say he has not committed, he says he has committed mutiny and you say he has not committed mutiny. Why do you say that? MR NOMPOZOLO On his evidence he has not committed any mutiny. DR TSOTSI Oh, I see. Okay. MR NOMPOZOLO Now is it correct Mr Mfene that when you pleaded guilty in court, the mutiny which was referred to in court was the mutiny in connection with the police and it had nothing to do with Brig Gqozo and the army? MR MFENE Brig Gqozo and the police and anything that was being discussed on that particular day was around those issues, we were there because of such issues, all of us. MR NOMPOZOLO Now I will read to you what is contained on the charge sheet from the Zwelitsha Regional Court where you were charged and convicted. "Count 51: That the accused are guilty of mutiny in contravention of section 3(a) and 3(b) of schedule 3 to the Police Act No 32/1983 in that upon or about the 22nd to the 23rd of March 1994 and at or near police college Bisho in the district of Zwelitsha the accused, being members of the Ciskeian police, did conspire with or incite other persons to mutiny or to cause a mutiny, riot or revolt the police force and did join the mutiny, riot or revolt in the police force." Is that what you pleaded guilty to? MR MFENE When I pleaded guilty I looked at this case this way, that the people who were laying charges were police. They were laying charges against the movements that were done by the other police, the police who did not bother themselves to ask and get necessary details concerning this movement and the intention of this movement. We knew our intention was to remove that man. MR NOMPOZOLO Would you confirm whether you know or you had a direct act which actually reached Brig Gqozo, that is you as an individual? MR MFENE You mean an act that was directed to Brig Gqozo or something that actually affected him? Will you please clarify? MR NOMPOZOLO I am referring to you as an individual. Do you know whether an act which was committed by you did actually reach Brig Gqozo? By you as an individual. MR MFENE Yes. MR NOMPOZOLO How did it reach him? MR MFENE I thought you were going to ask this way, which act was that and I would answer from the - are you still asking that question, which offence is it or how did that reach him? MR NOMPOZOLO Yes, how did it reach him? MR MFENE He left his position as a leader of Ciskei. MR NOMPOZOLO Because of your act as an individual? MR MFENE Yes, as an individual together with the other police. MR NOMPOZOLO What is it that you did which caused him to resign? MR MFENE I showed the other policemen that if we want what was taking place in Ciskei should come to an end, we should do what we did on the 22nd of March in the college. CHAIRPERSON Sorry Mr Nompozolo, when you ask a question then the interpreters interpret it to the applicant, the applicant then answers, I assume it's in Xhosa, and then they interpret their answer to us, so we are listening to the answer when it comes from the interpreter. By that time you are already busy asking a second question because you can listen directly to the answer, you understand the original answer that is being given and therefore you respond immediately. So we are losing out on a number of your questions unfortunately. You're going to have to leave a bit of time for the interpretation. MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now what is it that you did that caused Brig Gqozo to resign? MR MFENE We had a discussion with policemen. I influenced the other policemen. We discussed privately the facts that affected the other people who were very close to Gqozo. That is the reason that actually made him to leave his office as the leader of Ciskei. MR NOMPOZOLO What then did you influence police to do? That is the police who were on your side. MR MFENE I would ask for permission not to answer that question. MR NOMPOZOLO On what basis are you saying that, are you asking for that? Is it because it is going to incriminate you? MR MFENE The reason for that is because the charge sheet from the Regional Court from Zwelitsha, the one that you just read to the Commission, you realised after reading that I was charged and I was found guilty and now you want to get it from me what offence I did, what is it that I did to influence other police. I think that is going to waste the time of the Commission. MR NOMPOZOLO But are you aware that you are supposed to make a full disclosure so that you can get amnesty? MR MFENE Yes, I do understand that. I also understand the fact that it is necessary for me to see with my eyes and to think with my brains and know very well that I have mentioned this and it is even clear from the Commission and you even told that to the Commission when you were reading the charge sheet. MR NOMPOZOLO So you are not going to make the full disclosure as you are required? MR MFENE I had already asked for the permission not to answer that and to just go on to something else. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mfene do you mean that you have already answered the question? I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Are you saying that you've already answered that question or are you saying that it's clear from the charge sheet what you have done? MR MFENE I think I had already answered that question in the sense that I had mentioned that I influenced the other policemen and the other policemen did not know the solution, did not know how to remove Brig Gqozo there. I sat down with them and discussed with them. The gentleman wants me to explain again what is it that I did to influence the other policemen. CHAIRPERSON So are you saying that you played a leading role, you took the initiative in unseating Brig Gqozo amongst your colleagues? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Nompozolo. MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now what is it that you influenced the police to do? MR MFENE What I did, I told them that it is time that our superiors, who have been calling us for meetings and they would postpone those meetings, and I told them that it was time that if this particular meeting was not postponed, it was time to take a certain step. MR NOMPOZOLO Like what? What was the step which you told them to take? MR MFENE I just want to go back a little bit. I want to say this. The said Brig Gqozo, it was very difficult to communicate with him directly. There were officers, our senior officers, who were together with Commissioner Nqoya who used to do this - if they were actually against anything that was taking place in Ciskei, they would come and threaten us and tell us that we were going to lose our jobs and in that process they were doing whatever they liked in the police and they would do whatever pleases them, as I have already explained here as I was giving evidence. It became clear that if he had called us, at least we will manage to voice out whatever and tell him that enough is enough, because it was after the incident where 27 people died in Ciskei and that Brig Gqozo was still there and we were even protecting him after such incident. That caused us to try and sit and discuss with the officers, that is what caused the dissatisfaction among the officers, that is why the others laid charges against us and the others said that we pointed them with firearms, but that kind of an action I am saying I do not say it did not happen. Yes, it might have happened though myself I did not do that but because of the action that I took by influencing the other policemen, I am here today to apply for amnesty. MR NOMPOZOLO Did you influence police to go and kidnap the officers and also to hold them hostage? MR MFENE I did influence police to call the officers and call each and every policeman that was in the area, but the procedure that they used when they were calling those police, they know about it, but I do believe that that was a result of the influence - that was the result of what I did trying to influence the police. MR NOMPOZOLO So if I understand you well, you did not instruct any policeman to point a firearm to an officer and to forcefully bring an officer from his office or from his home to the Bisho police hall. You did not do that. MR MFENE I did instruct them to bring the police members, Ciskei police, but I did not tell them how to do that. They decided on what they did. That is why I am here today, I'm asking for amnesty, it's because of the procedure they used while trying to bring those police. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mfene, are you accepting the manner in which they executed that instruction, are you accepting responsibility? In other words, are you associating yourself with the way in which they have gone about securing the attendance of these officers at the college? MR MFENE I'll try and answer like this. The role that I played, or according to the role that I played there I am asking for amnesty. Those people who were doing that after the meeting we had, after that incident, we met and discussed and I told them that one, two and three was wrong, but as a person, as an individual, I am here today and I am asking for amnesty because things were happening with a blink of an eye during the night and the other people who were taking chances, that is why I am saying that I cannot dispute the fact that the others were taken hostage and kidnapped or pointed with firearms, though I did not do that myself, I am asking for amnesty because that was the result of my action. CHAIRPERSON And you were part of the group of police and you accept that whatever happened during this incident was part of your common goal as a group of policemen. Is that how we should understand what you are saying? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct, Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Nompozolo. MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now, did you at any stage during the occurrences at Bisho college hall or subsequent to that, learn that the officers were abducted or kidnapped from their houses to Bisho police college at gun-point and also that they were held at gun-point at Bisho police college? Did that ever come to your knowledge? MR MFENE I remember one person who came to me to complain about such behaviour or such conduct. It was Commissioner Nqoya who said to me the police knocked at his house at the windows. He was laying a charge because of that. That is what led to me, after talking to all these policemen, I criticised that action. At that moment as I was there at the college I still remember very well, the stage of that college is similar to this hall. There were officers at the podium and we were here on the tables, just in front of them and they were just behind me. No one was pointed at with a firearm who was told to remain there. All the police were sitting like the people in the audience. The police would go via me to go to the podium to speak to the other officers, though it was not really necessary for them to go up to the officers, but they didn't go there when I was still there. MR NOMPOZOLO In your evidence in chief you testified that as far as you were aware all the policemen who went into the hall, they did that voluntarily coming from either their offices or wherever. MR MFENE I said most of them went there voluntarily without being asked. Most of them heard that there was a meeting at the college hall and they just decided to go there and they got inside, that is what I said. MR NOMPOZOLO So then why would you - sorry Mr Chair. But now at that stage, that is on the 22nd and the 23rd of March 1994, at that stage it never came to your knowledge that some policemen were pointed with firearms? MR MFENE I heard that when the concept of kidnapping was mentioned and they said there were firearms and I was charged for kidnapping, of which I was later acquitted by the Regional Court, acquitted of that charge. MR NOMPOZOLO Were you acquitted of kidnapping or was it withdrawn? MR MFENE It was dismissed. MR NOMPOZOLO So you were not acquitted, it was withdrawn. MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO So why are you applying for amnesty for holding hostage when nobody, when you saw nobody being held hostage? All of those people were acting on your influence but they never held anyone hostage. Why are you applying for amnesty for that? MR MFENE I had explained that I did not mention anything about hostage because it was dismissed. I did mention that it was withdrawn from the docket. Yes it was there in the docket but it was later dismissed on my side. I am here because of mutiny. MR NOMPOZOLO Had you been convicted of hostage, would you apply for amnesty for it? MR MFENE Surely I was going to do that. MR NOMPOZOLO So, would I be correct to say you are only applying for amnesty for the things you have been convicted for, otherwise you're not telling the Commission what happened at Bisho police college and as such applying for amnesty? MR MFENE The reason for me to be here, charges were laid against me. I am not here to listen or to know what's going on here because a charge was laid. If that charge was not laid or if I did not know the proper channels to come to TRC because of something that I did, perhaps I was not convicted for that, I wouldn't be here today. MR NOMPOZOLO I don't understand. MR MFENE Let me explain briefly. If no one had laid a charge against me, I wouldn't be here today. MR NOMPOZOLO And is there a policeman on the junior officers or non-commissioned officers who was at Bisho police college who ever came to you and said "I pointed so and so with a firearm and I brought him from his office or from his home to Bisho police college on your instructions"? Is there a policeman who ever said that to you? MR MFENE No. MR NOMPOZOLO Therefore, from the policemen who were under I would say your command, as your evidence points that you were in charge, there is no policeman that you know who forcefully brought a person to the police college. No, you have instructed to forcefully bring an officer to police college on 22nd and 23rd of March 1994. MR MFENE I have already said, because we had spent more time with Nqoya, we had sent a policeman more than once to go and look out for him and they came with a report and eventually in the morning, the following day, Nqoya came with a policeman. He was not pointed to with guns and did not even tell me that, he did not even complain to me about being assaulted or something like that, therefore I do not have evidence that there was a policeman who, because of my instructions, who left and fetched a person forcefully and pointed a gun at that particular person. The only thing that I know is that the policemen went out to fetch Mr Nqoya and they brought him. MR NOMPOZOLO And the policeman who brought Nqoya, according to you, were not armed. MR MFENE The firearms were there. It might happen that he had a firearm, he was armed. There were firearms there. MR NOMPOZOLO Was he pointed with firearms? MR MFENE I cannot say that because I was not present. MR NOMPOZOLO Am I correct to say that you and all the policemen who were there, you did not commit any mutiny. All you gathered there was to discuss about what would be your future role as a policeman of Ciskei and the pensions, those were your concerns? MR MFENE That was part of the issues that were being discussed, but what was the most important was the removal of Gqozo. MR NOMPOZOLO And when you sent Nqoya to Brig Gqozo you sent him to ask what would be the future of the policemen, you did not send him to say Gqozo should resign. Am I correct? MR MFENE We did not send Nqoya to Mr Gqozo. Nqoya is the one who came to us and told us that he had a meeting with Gqozo. He was asking for more minutes, or more time and then he would later come back and talk to us. MR NOMPOZOLO And according to you no policemen were held hostage, the officers were not held hostage there at Bisho police college. MR MFENE No. MR NOMPOZOLO And by gathering at Bisho police college all you wanted to do was to gather information regarding the future of the police. MR MFENE I said that was part of the issues that were going to be discussed but the most important thing was to discuss the removal of Gqozo just before the end of that week. MR NOMPOZOLO Let's just get the plan of action. Suppose Gqozo had agreed to resign or to vacate the city, what was the plan of action the police had that after he has resigned, we are going to do this, or what was going to happen to Ciskei? MR MFENE We were going to give it back to the Republic of South Africa, as it belongs there today. MR NOMPOZOLO How was that objective going to be achieved? MR MFENE MR NOMPOZOLO Now had you already discussed that, that is the way forward? MR MFENE Yes, to such an extent that after that we had a series of meetings with people like Rev Finqa, Mr Goosen and the others. We stated our position and even people like Mr Mfumadi came on the 23rd of March, they came to Bisho and we told them about our objectives, we told them what we were asking for and they said they were taking them into consideration. Today we belong to the police of the whole of South Africa, not Ciskei. MR NOMPOZOLO Who were on the committee representing the police and who reported to Rev Finqa and others that look this is what we have done, now take over from there. Who were the representatives of the police? MR MFENE It was Capt Dioko, he was also there, General Tlela, although he was a commissioner but at least he could give direction, there was Brig Lando, Brig Nogantshu, those were the people whom we tried to shape their interest towards ours and we wanted whatever to happen and it eventually happened. MR NOMPOZOLO Are you saying that there was a structure in place before the 22nd and the 23rd which structure was going to see to it that there is a swift hand-over from the Gqozo administration to the interim administration which would be appointed, is that what you're saying? MR MFENE According to our belief we knew very well that Ciskei is not going to be in tatters, we were going to do something. Mr Finqa was placed and Mr Goosen was placed as the administrators. As administrators there they came and united Ciskei and South Africa and there was communication. MR NOMPOZOLO Yes. Who were on the committee? Who were the members of the committee? CHAIRPERSON Sorry, what committee is this? MR NOMPOZOLO The committee which, Mr Chairman, was in place prior to the 23rd. CHAIRPERSON Was there such a committee? MR NOMPOZOLO I understood the applicant to be saying that. CHAIRPERSON Then I must have missed it, I didn't hear that. Mr Mfene, was there a committee on your side prior the 22nd, prior to that gathering at the college? MR MFENE No, there was no committee. CHAIRPERSON No, I thought so. MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you Mr Chairman, then I was under the wrong impression. Now if there was no committee prior to the 22nd, on the 22nd the meeting was called by the commissioner of police, am I correct? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO And during the meeting you decided to take over the meeting, is that correct? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO And you had your own objective for taking over the meeting? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR NOMPOZOLO What was this objective? MR MFENE First of all our commissioner, because he was doing this in and out thing and he would call us and postpone the meeting, that gave us a chance to prepare ourselves, to prepare our speeches, and whatever we were going to say to him. We had plans, I am saying for the eighth time now, that our main objective was to have Gqozo removed so that we could be one with our officers and belong to the greater South Africa thereafter. MR NOMPOZOLO When was that decided, on the 22nd? MR MFENE Just before that. MR NOMPOZOLO Who decided on that before the 22nd? MR MFENE The police who were at the lower ranks. MR NOMPOZOLO Who are they? MR MFENE I'm one of them. MR NOMPOZOLO And who else? MR MFENE They are here, their names are written here in this list. MR NOMPOZOLO Am I wrong to say that according to your evidence it would seem as if it was your idea that Brig Gqozo should be removed or should be caused to resign on the 22nd of March 1994? MR MFENE I feel bad because you did not ask anything about the previous date, before the 22nd of March, you did not ask anything about those dates. Those are the dates that gave us enough opportunity to prepare ourselves so that if the other coming date wouldn't be postponed and that would be true that we were going to be there on the 22nd of March. MR NOMPOZOLO You were going to be there on the 22nd of March, by that you mean that you were going to be at Bisho college? MR MFENE We were already called at that time on the 22nd of March. MR NOMPOZOLO What I'm trying to establish from you, the idea of removing Brig Gqozo, was it your idea which came on the 22nd of March or was it in place before that? CHAIRPERSON Yes, he said before that. MR NOMPOZOLO And was there a committee which was communicating that or it was just a meeting of the junior officers? MR MFENE There was no committee, there was no meeting, it was just a discussion that was taking place among the junior officers and we knew the procedure and we did that. MR NOMPOZOLO So you were meeting from time to time to discuss that? MR MFENE We were not meeting but we used to see one another at some times. There is a difference between a formal meeting, there is a difference of when you meet a person somewhere and ask about something, it was just like that. MR NOMPOZOLO So was this co-ordinated in any manner? MR MFENE Yes, it was co-ordinated by us because it did not take us time to take it into action. MR NOMPOZOLO You see I'm having problems. How was this co-ordinated? MR MFENE Our times of meetings in the formal meetings we were careful because we did not want to be found having a meeting as junior officers, even Popcru was underground in Ciskei. I was also a member of Popcru at the time but I did not tell anyone that I was a member of Popcru because I knew that I would end up losing my job and go to jail or be expelled or something like that. We were doing such things in such a way that no one would see anything or notice. MR NOMPOZOLO Now the officers, you were not seeking any assistance from them, am I correct? MR MFENE We used to like them very much. There were those that we used to visit and we would go there and tell them whatever and they would say yes and as they would be coming from a group of people, they would go back again to that group, but when we were just on the other side we had only just a small number of officers. There were officers who were feeling the pain from the senior officers and if you were complaining in such a situation, you would be threatened by some other ways. MR NOMPOZOLO Was there any community organisation you co-ordinated this with, or you told them about your plan of action? MR MFENE Popcru was an affiliate of Cosatu, the Cosatu that affiliates to ANC. If I can explain further you will understand the fact that ANC or Popcru was a people's organisation, it was not only the police. A police will go up to Cosatu and people know how to get to Cosatu, that chain. I want to say to you, even the other people were blessing that action, they were not against that action. MR NOMPOZOLO Were you communicating with any organisation or association, political? MR MFENE No. MR NOMPOZOLO Thank you Mr Chair. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO CHAIRPERSON Ms Collett, any questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT Just a few Mr Chairman. Why were you dissatisfied that the meetings had not taken place with the commissioner? MR MFENE Can you please repeat your question? MS COLLETT Why was it that you were dissatisfied that the meetings had not taken place with the commissioner? MR MFENE The reason for our dissatisfaction is this, the police was the only group whereby their leaders were not communicating with them. If you can go to the agricultural department, the health department, you would find that everything was being addressed by the leaders or the heads or the commissioners, but our commissioner, when he was talking to us, he was not communicating well with us. MS COLLETT So, it was with regard to employment grievances, is that correct? MR MFENE I can say that is part of our grievances at the workplace and the development of the working conditions. If you would give me an opportunity I would tell you that it was easy to just say that a certain branch or a certain unit would be developed and then we would be told to see what we would do. There would be cars and nothing would be there and if the members were not going to work, they would be demoted or they would be reported to Brig Gqozo. Those are the things that we wanted to meet with our commissioner. We were very happy that he wanted to see us but he would change that. MS COLLETT Did you want to meet with him with regard to overthrowing than Brig Gqozo? MR MFENE We wanted to meet with him to tell him our grievances. Our main aim was to unite with him, to say one thing with the commissioner when we were overthrowing Gqozo. MS COLLETT Please answer my question. Did you want to tell the commissioner that you wanted to overthrow Gqozo and seek his assistance? MR MFENE We didn't want to tell him, we wanted him to be part of us when we were overthrowing Gqozo. MS COLLETT But he was your superior, how did you think he could assist you in overthrowing Gqozo? MR MFENE As our superior, he was not communicating with us. There were different groups in the police force. There were those who were close to Brig Gqozo together with the commissioner, so if we were going to meet with him, we wanted to be united as the police so that if Gqozo could say that he was overthrown by the police, there would be no police who would see himself as innocent. We wanted the police to be part of that. MS COLLETT So is the answer to my question that you wanted the commissioner to assist you to overthrow Brig Gqozo? MR MFENE I said we didn't want him to help us, but we wanted him to be part of that action. MS COLLETT But what if he didn't want to be part of that action? MR MFENE Fortunately he was there when we were taking that action. MS COLLETT I'm asking you, did he want to be part of that action? MR MFENE He was in the hall where we called him even though we were the people who did the job. MS COLLETT I'll ask you the question again. Did he want to be part of that action to overthrow Gqozo? MR MFENE I wouldn't say that he wanted to be part of it, he was happy under Brig Gqozo. MS COLLETT Why did you need him at all? MR MFENE The reason for that is that we wanted to be seen together with our commissioner, we wanted people to see that we are all united, we are saying the same thing together with our leader, our commissioner. MS COLLETT But you weren't united, were you? There were people who didn't agree with overthrowing Gqozo, that were in the police force? MR MFENE Can you please repeat the question? MS COLLETT There were people in the police force that might not have agreed with overthrowing Brig Gqozo. MR MFENE I can say that police like the ones who are sitting here were not for our action but most of the police as it was known that those with lower ranks, they wanted or they were for what we were doing, they were not against it. MS COLLETT I want to put it to you that on that particular day the whole purpose of you securing the presence of the commissioner and other senior officers at the Bisho police college was so that you could air grievances about certain monetary issues in the police force. MR MFENE I'm not denying or disputing that. We wanted to talk about that and then we would be scared off. We wanted to talk or to discuss all those issues. MS COLLETT I also want to ask you, in your amnesty application at 10 (b) you said that justification for what you were doing was so that your demands could be met by the Ciskei police or the government. Do you have a copy of that document in front of you? MR MFENE What page? MS COLLETT 26. MR MFENE That is correct. We wanted our demands to be addressed by the senior police. If I was given an opportunity to say what our demands were, the first one would be the overthrowing of Brig Gqozo because at the time the police houses burned and police were killed because Gqozo killed people in Ciskei. That was not right to us, so we wanted to overthrow him after the Bisho massacre. So we wanted the blessing of the police commissioner. What is written here is right, those were our demands. MS COLLETT Did you see Commissioner Nqoya as being somebody who supported Brig Gqozo? MR MFENE Even at the last minute before we parted with him, he went to have a meeting with Brig Gqozo and he used to have the meetings every day at 8 o'clock and that's why here they know that he was his best friend. MS COLLETT Then why on earth would you think that Commissioner Nqoya would assist you in overthrowing Brig Gqozo? MR MFENE It is because he was wearing the same uniform as the police. He was known as the police. Everything that was done by the police, we wanted his name to be mentioned within the police. MS COLLETT MR MFENE I might be using his name but he is no longer the leader of the Ciskei. MS COLLETT Is that your answer? MR MFENE It is because you are saying that I'm using his name because of that aim. I have repeated a lot of times that our aim was to remove him in his position. Indeed he did that, he was removed in his position and the commissioner of the police united the Ciskeian police together with the South African police. MS COLLETT I want to know from you why was it necessary to actually remove the commissioner's daughter and wife from their house on that evening and take them to the Bisho police college? MR MFENE That is part of what I'm here for. That is part of my asking for amnesty. I'm here to ask for amnesty for such things because they were not planned. MS COLLETT Why was it necessary to get them there, the daughter and the wife of Commissioner Nqoya? Why was it necessary to take them to the police college to further your objectives? MR MFENE I would like to tell the Commission that there was no need for that, it was not necessary and that is why I'm here asking for forgiveness or for amnesty. MS COLLETT But you agree that Brig Tlela's wife and Adnoi's wife were also taken to the police college on that evening? MR MFENE MS COLLETT Well tell us why they happened, we'd like to know. MR MFENE The reason for those things to happen, I said that everything happened fast at that day and a lot of police believe that if you go and look for a particular person in his place and then that particular person is not there, you would not believe that the one who is there does not know where the one you're looking for is, so you would take the one who is in that house and then the one was not there, the one you were looking for would come and look for those who were there. MS COLLETT So you were holding up civilians as ransom for the other police officials, is that what you're saying? MR MFENE Can you please repeat the question? MS COLLETT So you were holding the civilians like the wives and the children us as ransom to try and secure the presence of the senior officers that didn't want to be part of your plan? MR MFENE What I'm saying is that was a mistake. That was done by the police that were looking for these people and I'm here asking for forgiveness or for amnesty for that even though I was not part of it, even though I did not take the people that are mentioned. MS COLLETT You see I want to put it to you that the whole purpose of that meeting was to do with monetary issues, to do with where you were going to get your pensions, whether you were going to be re-employed, etc, etc and had nothing to do with the overthrow of Brig Gqozo. MR MFENE I don't know about that but Brig Gqozo resigned on that particular day so I don't know how his resignation, how does it go hand in hand with the grievances of the police, if you put that aside, because I am saying that he resigned because of the actions of that day. MS COLLETT I want to put it to you that there was to be a general election on the 27th of April where Brig Gqozo would be ousted from power in any event. MR MFENE On the 7th of September a lot of people came and he killed a lot of people. The fact that there was an election and he was going to lose his position, Brig Gqozo was there together with his ADM, there would be few people who would be in the region of Ciskei as compared to people from Cape Town, Johannesburg who would come to remove him in his position, so as the police, we realised that he was - we had to remove him so he left his position. That was our aim. MS COLLETT Why didn't you bring Brig Gqozo to your meeting then if that was your sole aim? MR MFENE He is the one who ran away. He ran away. We knew from the meeting what we were going to do because after he resigned he disappeared. He was found after a few days and that was all over. We knew that he had resigned because of the police. MS COLLETT Did you send for him or call for him to be at your meeting so that you could tell Brig Gqozo that you wanted him to resign? MR MFENE We would be arrested by our colleagues if we did that and we had decided to do it the way we did it and it was successful. MS COLLETT Is it correct if I say to you that this interim administration in the form of Jurgens, Goosen and Finqa came to you before Commissioner Nqoya came to the hall that evening? MR MFENE Are you saying that they were there before he arrived that evening? MS COLLETT I'm asking you that, yes. MR MFENE That might be so. I saw during the night that they were there. MS COLLETT Why didn't you raise your concerns about the resignation of Brig Gqozo with them and leave it at that? MR MFENE That Brig Gqozo had resigned or we wanted him to resign? MS COLLETT Wanted him to resign. MR MFENE He had already resigned so there was no need for him to resign again because he had already resigned when they arrived, when Rev Finqa and Mr Goosen arrived. MS COLLETT You see Commissioner Nqoya will say the reason that that meeting was called on that day was to discuss the planning for the elections and extra monies that you would be paid for helping with the elections as policemen. Do you agree with that? MR MFENE Which meeting? The one he called us to? MS COLLETT Yes. MR MFENE That might be possible because after that there were elections. We told him that we were not against elections and we were not against working on that day. We wanted to be free. MS COLLETT I want to put it to you that Brig Bungusa, Col Simms and Col Oosthuizen were the persons who were briefing you about the provisions of the elections or the provisions that would be made for the elections, upcoming elections, at that meeting. Is that correct? MR MFENE Who are those people? MS COLLETT Brig Bungusa and Col Simms and Col Oosthuizen. MR MFENE I deny that. They didn't say anything to us. There were only two inspectors who were addressing us. MS COLLETT I want to put it to you further that it was only when you people were dissatisfied with what you were being told about the elections that Nqoya was actually called to the meeting. MR MFENE That is not so. We went in the hall, we sat in the hall and the hall was packed with the police. We waited for the commissioner because he's the one who called us to that meeting. Our colleagues, the inspectors, came who were working at the college. They went to the stage and they told us that on the vote, election day, what was going to happen on that day. MS COLLETT I want to put it to you that when the commissioner did come to that meeting, many of the police were very disrespectful and were more interested in their pensions and why a certain officer by the name of Makubelu was re-employed because she had been convicted of a criminal offence. Isn't that correct? MR MFENE Being disrespectful to him is because the police, he did not respect the police when he arrived there. I even spoke to him and told him that that is not the right way to address the police because he would make them disrespectful if he was talking to them that way. So the police were not disrespectful to him at all. MS COLLETT And I want to further put it to you that he refused to come back to any other meeting with you on that day. MR MFENE Did he tell you how he left us, what word did he say before he left us? MS COLLETT Sir with respect, I'm asking the questions and you're giving the answers. I put it to you that he told you that he refused to come back to any other meeting on that day. MR MFENE Yes, he refused because he came back the following day but we waited for him from 11 and then he came back on the following day in the morning. I can say that he refused. MS COLLETT And I want to put it to you that the way that he came back to that meeting is he was arrested by your police, taken as hostage from the legislative buildings in Bisho and taken to the police college. MR MFENE I'm not disputing that, I've already said that he came back to that meeting with the police. MS COLLETT Do you remember questioning him about monies that were in a certain police trust? MR MFENE Yes, I do recall. I was the one who was asking him. MS COLLETT And do you remember that in the early hours of that morning when this meeting was disbanded he was taken at gun-point to a bank to withdraw R87 000 worth of money from the police trust? MR MFENE Even though I was not there when he was pointed by a gun, I am here to ask for forgiveness for that. He had to withdraw that money because he was misusing it. He was using it for his own purposes, he even agreed to that, MS COLLETT How did that fit into your political objective to overthrow Brig Gqozo, the withdrawal of the R87 000? MR MFENE The issue of Brig Gqozo is a separate issue but what I'm saying is, he got involved because when he was asked about the money of the Ciskeian police, he did say that yes, he was misusing the money, as a result he gave us a certain figure that he used for his own purposes. We then said to him okay - he was supposed to then withdraw the money of the police and then it would be given towards the police. That was not a political issue. We were trying to resolve the issues or the grievances within the police. MS COLLETT I want to put it to you finally Sir that what happened on that day was a case of absolute insubordination to the senior officers and now you are coming before the Truth Commission and trying to put it under the umbrella of some political objective. MR MFENE I'm very worried because even you in your house, if you don't take care of your child, your child will be in the streets, if your child is not well fed or well treated in your house. Commissioner Nqoya was not right in saying that he was the commissioner of the police even though he knew that those police were not taken care of. Some of the police were shooting themselves and they were hanging themselves because of the actions that were done by the senior police so if the police were trying to defend ourselves, it's not right that it would be seen as if the junior officers were not respecting the seniors. MS COLLETT That's my point exactly. The whole meeting was about police grievances. It had nothing to do with politics. MR MFENE What I'm saying is, the aim of the police when they met or gathered that day with the commissioner on the 22nd of March was because we knew that Gqozo was going to be removed from his position, that was our aim and the situation was very bad in the Ciskei at that time because it was after what he did, the bad thing that he did, that is well-known to everybody and some of the police were affected by that, so we had to unite and remove him in his position and we had to decide where to take the police force and the Ciskeian government. MS COLLETT Thank you, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLLETT CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Collett. Mr Mapoma, any questions? MR MAPOMA Thank you Sir. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Mr Mfene I just want clarity on a few aspects here. You say in your evidence that you were a member of Popcru operating underground in Ciskei during that period. Do you remember that? MR MFENE Yes. MR MAPOMA Now, when you made this plan to unseat Brig Gqozo, did you communicate with Popcru about your actions thereon? MR MFENE Yes. MR MAPOMA And did Popcru give you a go-ahead to influence police into making those acts that they did? MR MFENE No, Popcru didn't give me a go-ahead except that they said they have heard what we were saying. MR MAPOMA Did Popcru have any influence in your actions? MR MFENE Before or after the actions? MR MAPOMA Before. MR MFENE I can say that it had an influence but because it said that we can continue, even though it did not give us a procedure or a plan to follow. I would like to explain this. When this was happening each and everybody within the police force sacrificed themselves, they didn't care whether they lost their jobs or they were detained but at the end of the day the truth would be seen that Gqozo was supposed to be in that position. MR MAPOMA Are you still a member of Popcru? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. MR MAPOMA Are you occupying any portfolio within the ranks of Popcru? MR MFENE I'm a vice-chairman at the institution of Stutterheim. MR MAPOMA Now when did this mutiny end? I understand it started on the 22nd of March. MR MFENE ON the 23rd of March, the following day. MR MAPOMA When actually? MR MFENE At about 10 o'clock in the morning. MR MAPOMA And it carried on overnight from the 22nd to the 23rd, is that not so? MR MFENE That is correct. MR MAPOMA And according to your evidence, you said you came to know that Brig Gqozo resigned, you came to know of that on the 22nd of March. Now, why did you continue with the action even though he had resigned? MR MFENE We wanted to be sure that indeed he had resigned because we would disperse maybe that particular evening and then while we were still sleeping his intelligence within the military and the police, we'd see them coming in our houses, taking us one by one from our houses. MR MAPOMA And how did you become to be sure that he had resigned? MR MFENE We heard that from the TV news, from the morning newspaper the following day and the police, even though I didn't trust their report because I was busy there, but they would come back and report to us that there are rumours that Brig Gqozo had resigned on that particular evening. They came back to us and reported that. MR MAPOMA Now let's - I just want clarity now on the meeting with the commissioner. He called a meeting and you compiled a list of the issues that you wanted discussed in that meeting. You remember that ? MR MFENE Yes. MR MAPOMA Now the issue of the resignation of Gqozo does not appear in the list that you made. Why? MR MFENE It is because when it had appeared, because we were making copies of that list, we didn't want that to be slipped or to go to the wrong hands. The fact that we placed our police demands in front, we knew our main aim, that is why we didn't include it in our list, the issue about Gqozo. MR MAPOMA Now when the commissioner arrived in the meeting, you put your grievances to him, if I understand, in fact you said - I mean, you did put your grievances to him and you said he was going to have a meeting with the brigadier, why did you not tell the commissioner that you want the brigadier that he was going to meet, resign? MR MFENE You are asking if - you wanted us to tell him about the brigadier that he was going to meet. We saw that as being dangerous. He just said that we must give him some few minutes, he was going to meet with Brig Gqozo. We knew very well that that was the last meeting between the two of them and indeed that happened as we planned it. MR MAPOMA But why did you want the commissioner? You were already engaged then in a mutiny exercise then, why did you allow the commissioner to go and sensitise Gqozo about your actions, if you wanted Gqozo to step down? I don't know if you understand me well in this? MR MFENE Yes, I do understand you. What happened is, the police operate like this. You discuss issues, all of you would discuss issues and you would plan something. It's like when we were going to raid thieves in a certain area, there would be police amongst us who would go forward and tell those thieves what we were going to do, so if you were operating you were supposed to treat this in a secret way. We didn't tell the commissioner that we wanted Gqozo to resign. When he asked a few minutes to go and meet with him, we thought that it was going to be few minutes. We didn't want him to think or suspect that we were aiming at removing Brig Gqozo and indeed our plan did work, that happened. MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Mfene. Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Mapoma. Are there any questions on the panel? ADV BOSMAN Yes please. Just bear with me for a moment. Mr Mfene, was there a leader of the officers of lower rank, official or unofficial? MR MFENE I was the leader, unofficial leader. ADV BOSMAN You have a few times used the phrase "it happened as we planned it" and you have a few times said "we planned it and so it happened". Now who are the we? MR MFENE I am referring to myself and the police who occupied lower ranks, certain police. ADV BOSMAN Were the police of lower rank in favour of your viewpoint? MR MFENE Yes. ADV BOSMAN I find this difficult to understand that all the senior police, or most of the senior police officers seem to have been in favour of Gqozo and the ones of lower rank, not in favour of Gqozo. Why is this? MR MFENE I would like to explain this. Amongst the officers who are sitting here and other officers there are those who were promoted immediately after that happened, because they were also complaining, they were saying that they were also oppressed. They were afraid to raise their voice because the senior police would go and report so they would be demoted and they would be on the lower ranks. So a lot of police from the former Ciskei were supporting my action. ADV BOSMAN And then the planning you refer to, what planning took place? MR MFENE Can you please repeat that question? ADV BOSMAN You refer to planning, that it happened as we planned it, and our plans came about, what planning took place? MR MFENE The plan that we made was that as we were called on the 22nd there was not voice saying that the meeting had been postponed or cancelled, so we had to use that meeting in trying to remove Brig Gqozo from his position. ADV BOSMAN What I'm trying to ascertain is what planning? When did you plan this and how did you plan it? MR MFENE I've already said Nqoya didn't call us once, he called us to a meeting and then when we were preparing ourselves to go to that meeting to meet with our leader, he would postpone that meeting and we would receive another minute saying that the commissioner would like to meet with us on a particular date and then when we were preparing for that particular day, we were preparing to discuss issues with our superiors, we knew that amongst us there were those who would go and tell him and then he would then postpone the meeting. He then gave us the date of the 22nd of March. He gave out that date mid-February, and then he didn't change that particular date until the 22nd, so we had planned as the police. ADV BOSMAN What I'm trying to get at is did you then formally get together and plan something? The lower officers, did you get together formally or informally as a group and make some plans? MR MFENE We wouldn't meet, we'd just meet on the way and then we would say this issue will go on on that particular date because the date had not yet been cancelled, so we had to raise our voice, but we wanted that man to be removed from his position. ADV BOSMAN Who is that man now, the commissioner? MR MFENE Brig Gqozo. ADV BOSMAN The money that was withdrawn by the commissioner, to whom was it given? MR MFENE The money that was withdrawn by the commissioner was taken to the DC, it was taken to a safe in Zwelitsha and then it was divided amongst the police according to their contribution. Each and every police would be given certain money according to his contribution. ADV BOSMAN Was it divided among all the policemen in the Ciskei of the time or just certain of them? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. It was divided amongst all the police. ADV BOSMAN Even the officers who were in favour of Gqozo? MR MFENE The officers had their own sport club, they did not contribute to this money of the non-commissioned officers. ADV BOSMAN Oh, was this a sports club contribution? Were these sports club contributions? MR MFENE Some of the money was the sports club and there was money known as orphaned fund which was money responsible for widows and the children of the police who died would be helped. That was the aim of that money, but they misused that money. They used that money for their own personal purpose. ADV BOSMAN But each person who had made a contribution got something back. Is that correct? MR MFENE Yes, that is correct. ADV BOSMAN Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Any re-examination Mr Obose? MR OBOSE No thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mfene you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR OBOSE Mr Chairman I will call Mr Nkwenkwe who appears as number 1. His application is from page 1 to page 8, Mr Chairman, of the paginated bundle. CHAIRPERSON How long is his testimony likely to be? Let's take his evidence in chief, how long will that be? MR OBOSE Mr Chairman I suppose anything between 15 to 25 minutes at the most. I would imagine. There is really nothing more that he's going to add except to add on certain other things which Mr Mfene couldn't touch on. CHAIRPERSON Yes. We didn't plan to sit much beyond 4 o'clock. Perhaps we should let him stand over until tomorrow and then dispose of his entire testimony in one sitting. We will adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow morning and reconvene at 9 o'clock. We're adjourned. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS